You check the particulars and find that the J-10 is without doubt came from transferred Lavy blueprints - modified for Chinese tastes. Nickname:"Lavi-san"
Definitely it was built with lavi tech , until the Tiananmen square massacre even the americans,british and french were helping the chinese modernize their military to fendoff the soviet union. When the protests and massacre happened the deals fell off due to western pressure but that didnt stop the Israelis from selling weapons and tech to the chinese in the 1990s and early 2000s with the abortive phalcon radar deal which was stopped with immense US pressure(its fruit is KJ-2000 awacs), they also were caught selling drones and loitering munitions technology recently. Chinese have the money and Israelis need money to maintain their heavily militarized state at constant readiness and with cutting edge technology
@@jzk3919 LMAO no. If you use 'san' as a suffix. It will be Japanese, you wrote is considered insulting to the CCP. They wouldn't mind if you said copied.
American pressure led to the liquidation of the Avro CF-105 Arrow fighter jet project .Even now, Israel manufactures Kfir fighter jets in Block 60 ruclips.net/video/kJnDrRjYUW4/видео.html
@@s.marcus3669 Today IAI produces Kfir Block 60 which is better than any F16's, but the Israeli Air Force fell in love with American aid so they closed the Lavi project.
Chinese folk here. Gotta love the Lavi! People here say that J-10's airframe is quite different, (different main wing and much further canard placement for maneuverability) but the fly by wire system borrows a ton from it. Hey, we have to learn it from somewhere. Funnily, when my dad downloaded me the first leaked images of J-10 in the 2000s, there were actually Lavi pics mixed in, and I was confused af by the hexagram. Good time. Both sexy planes.
It is not the physical aspects of the jet that is derived from Lavi, but the tech involved in how to build it. That tech itself was ' borrowed ' from the US.
LoL Please UPDATE your information, Don't brag too much when you don't know the exact info! The J-10 was developed from the J-9 of the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute. The J-9 was designed in the 1960s. The design goal was to intercept the Soviet Tu-22M and the US B-1B. However, due to insufficient engine performance, the flight performance of the J-9 could not meet the design targets, so it was planned to cancel in the late 1970s.In the 1960s design, the J-9 had adopted the long arm canard. IAI LAVI is close coupled canard, which is completely different. More similar to EF2000.
@@creativevines3535 you do not master the delta wing - canard configuration easily, hence why there are so few aircraft that has it as a wing layout. The J series had always been swept wing but the J-10 was a unique breed of its own. Hes not saying that the J-10 is a Chinese copy, the J-10 is simply the Lavi with Chinese characteristics and it works.
The South African Airforce through Denel Industries produced a Mirage III fitted with canards called the Cheetah! I actually saw the tooling for the canards during a visit to Denel back in the day. PS I was the design draughtsman (sub-contracted firm to Armscor/Denel) for the Defender/Striker 12 gauge 12 shot rotary drum shotgun with folding stock and a 6 shot 40 mm ballistite grenade launcher amongst other military projects. Thanks ED for the very interesting material.
I had heard of the Lavi before, and I recognized the J10 as also being an "F-16 with delta wings," but I didn't put the connection together until this video. They're nearly identical.
There are. In fact, the only major difference is the russian, reverse engineered engine which is longer then the american pw1120. Hence, the enlargement in the overall length of the fuselage and also in some minor visual dissimilarities
Lavi is a small fighter with a close-range canard wing, and its swept wing is not a complete delta wing, with the maximum engine thrust of 93kn. J-10 is a medium-sized fighter with a mid-range canard wing, one size larger than Lavi , and the maximum engine thrust of 130-144kn, which is a complete delta wing.
That was clear to Israel right off the top in 1948. Of course that early they could not possibly have developed their own combat type, but they were almost totally embargoed and had to get creative with procurement. The result (initially) was the sublime irony of Israel's first fighters being Czech Avia C210s, a variant of the Nazis' vaunted Messerschmitt 109. (That story, Ed, would make a great video subject...)
Some corrections to the pronunciation: “Dassault” is pronounced Da-saw “Kfir” is pronounced as written rather than Keh-fir “Lavi” is not pronounced like the word ‘savvy’. The emphasis should be on the second syllable: la-VEE
I appreciate the geopolitical context vis: the IAI Lavi that this vid provides, whereas some other vids just go into the technical and logistical facts behind aircraft lik this... cheers.
The Mirage 5 copy, was named "Nesher" (Eagle), It served well in Yom Kippur war in 1973. the French embargo came after Israel paid already for 50 units and had to replace battle losses of the six days war and the phasing out of old aircraft. The cancellation of the Lavi project was the biggest push to the Israeli Hi-Tech industry, since many employees who worked over the project were let go and went to the private sector after working on high end technology project. The J-10 seems to be more inspired by the Lavi than a copy. there are differences in the wing shape, aircraft size, rudder shape, air intakes, canard location and their shape. the j-10 also has a "line" on its back just like the Eurofighter. it will be interesting to compare 4 planes that were designed at around the same time , Lavi, J-10, Griffen and Eurofighter.
@@syedshah9836" he said 2 billion" never the less, the other way one can look at it; Money resources and knowledge is given and gifted all the time all around the world on a daily basis, (Africa, Middle East, Asia, South America and Europe) and yet very few actually managed to use it to better the situation. specialy when you think of the undergoing building of a nation in a desert land with water scarcity while fighting several wars with several countries and still able to establish a country at the top tier in 80 years or so... Respect.
@@aaaccc8707 Has any other country been given such largesse in the last 70 years, no thought not. So keep your nonsensical ramblings to yourself and answer the actual question...
I seen a photo somewhere speculating on a modern delta F-16 with stealthy design elements and F-35 avionics. Looked pretty sick. A single engine longer ranged super cruising weapons truckster.
There a old usage , if a aircraft looks right it is right. This plane looks the business ! A second thing, if you can do a thing yourself is always better then relying on others . The Israelis did a remarkable job with this aircraft . A remarkable effort !!
but america eont let any nation have better stuff than it. they legit started a cold war with russia so they could show how big their "stick" is (and russia got carried away too)
@@BlackMasterRoshi i have no idea whats your news source but irl israel tries too much to look like the "good guys" it costs us our own solider's lives. a poor IDF solider was shot in thr head near a border because theres no restrictions for palestinians to amass near the border. the current goverment is way too soft with hamas, giving them anything they want and ignoring all their attacks. one day an extremist will rise and the hamas will regret it refusing the prace treaty offers...
@@ofekk213 Wrong buddy. You can not blame ONE country for the "cold war". That's just plain idiotic. BOTH countries tried to one up the other since day one after WW2 ended. The "cold war" was the culmination of years of back and forth on who had more of what in terms of arms, but it was RUSSIA that lied first with the TU95, they were proven liars with U2 over flights of Russian, and it went from there. Check your history facts and data.
I’m glad they wiped the slate clean and started with a new design. I’m gonna assume they used flush riveting on the prototypes, both number one and number two.
Sounds like when the us got word of the Navi program, they got nervous that this foreign developed airplane would be able to outperform their current aircraft, so Ragean lifted the arms embargo ban so he could sell new f-16s to Israel Hoping that they would cancel the Navi program. That’s what I think
It was less because he wanted to sell the F-16 but because Carters old policy was because he wanted to improve relations with the Soviets by restricting American arms trade, however by Reagans time relations had begun to sour so no need to keep the Soviets happy by restricting arms. Might as well arm your allies and keep your own defense industry happy
It’s interesting to think that pilots from Israel, America, Saudi Arabia, and may be the UK May one day have to face a Chinese copy of a Israeli aircraft funded by America As there has been reports that the Iranians may be interested in purchasing the Chinese J 10 Vigourous dragon.
@@BigBrainBrian Thats my understanding as well. Chinese aircraft copies are very capable aircraft but they have trouble creating engines as powerful as the original in the same size factor. Underpowered. Once they solve this issue they will be even more formidable. Even now though they are a serious adversary. Just as the Soviet Union was a dangerous adversary even if (if) aircraft may not have been a 1 for 1 match with western aircraft, they had a lot of positive advantages like sturdy reliable build, ease of maintenance, and large numbers. Imagine a china that now has those same qualities but a national economy that isn't going to go away and collapse anytime soon.
All the Lavi technology probably didn't go to waste and has been transitioned into other aircraft design, that makes good business sense. The Lavi prototypes look similar to the Rafale, and the F-16, but even more like the J-10 fighter.
The F-16 came before Lavi, and Rafale and J-10 both came after. It looks very much like the F-16XL with the addition of canards but there were also a lot of internal differences between it and the F-16. Personally I think the Israelies made the wrong call. I believe if it had been fully developed that it would have given the F-16, the Rafale and the Gripen all runs for their money.
@@ImpendingJoker ~ Israelis have loved the F-16 since it first came out and would have had knowledge of the F-16XL. They probably had access to high level information from Dassault Aviation and the Saab, fighter programs, and probably decided it was easier to buy the best equipment rather than make it. So they stopped developing the Lavi and parlayed it's engineering assets into business assets.
@@martentrudeau6948 The Israeli IAI and the Israeli government canceled Lavi because the Israeli Air Force wanted to buy 40 planes instead of 100. The pressure from an American to cancel the project at the time Lavi was more sophisticated and more advanced aerobics than F16.
@@gabrieljoseph6310 ~ The popularity of the F-16 was it's simplicity, ease of maintenance and low cost. The Lavi was meant to be an air superiority fighter.
Very well presented video. One of ya best boss. I love Israeli Air Force history. From flying WW2 fighters with the wrong engine to the 6 day war to building their own jets (with a little help) and dominating the air. PS Those Chinese jets looked good.
When you wear blinders to avoid getting tied up in the politics, Israeli military gear really is fasinating. Scraps, leftovers, reverse-engineering, retrofitting, refurbishing, hoegrown genius, and half-finished plans, but so much trial by fire that only the best equipment lasts as a standard.
"With a little help" - understatement of the millenium. Most of the tech is hijacked if not outright stolen. No access to US Treasury funds since March 2020 is going change things up a bit for "Israel". I hope Putin wipes them like a dirty arse.
The Chinese J-10 jet was built in the 80's with the Israeli plans of the Lavi, Right after cancelling the Lavi project. One can see how similar they look like.
Carter was playing footsie with the Arabs- remember the "oil crisis"? He played chicken with them and lost. Reagan was elected partly on breaking into the US strategic oil reserve, which broke the Arabs' stranglehold. The Lavi was just a strong hint to the US that Israel would, if pressed, not depend on US war materiels, and they dropped the program when the US dropped the embargo which was the desired effect. Kinda like the tank situation which Israel resolved with the Merkava, except they had to run that program to completion. Do not doubt that the US defense industries took a lesson from that.
What is this reference? My mind only went to cousin Avi. :D "You know, London! Fish, chips, cup o' tea, bad food, worse weather, Mary fuckin' Poppins - London!"
The mirage 3 was an excellent design , but in order to maintain its performance after EVERY flight the instrumentation , especially the electronic gun controls required complete recalibration... YES after EVERY flight ! !
Thanks Ed 🙏🙏 this plane was a sore spot in my Aviation Engineers club ... the carbon fiber wings were so hard to build that they had to revert to aluminum wings... and we couldn't see the point of the program
The wings were carbon fiber. What they abandoned was the co-cured concept to form the spars and the skin in a single operation. Most composite wings and control surfaces are manufactured in this manner. Japan’s F-2 was the rare exception which proceeded down the co-cured route, leading to a steep learning curve and higher development cost. As for the point of the program, that has already been described elsewhere. Delivering a strike radius of a Block 52+ F-16C (with conformal fuel tanks) with an empty weight less than a Block 15 F-16A is quite the achievement.
@@JohnGolan Thank you for the correction, it would have been a US Taxpayers funded serious Israeli competitor to a US Taxpayers funded GDs F16 no doubt
Grumman signed-on as a partner in the program, with an agreement to built a separate US assembly line to cover export orders. The airplane was as much a US development program as it was Israeli. It was no accident that nearly half of the Lavi was to be developed and produced in the US. It meant that the US could be persuaded to continue funding both development and production of the aircraft. Producing the Lavi would translate directly into US jobs. It also made the Lavi a potential contender for sales to the US Air Force - something the Rafale or Typhoon could never have contemplated. Attempts to market the Lavi to the US Air Force came to a halt, of course, when the program was cancelled.
Grumman was unable to produce the co-cured carbon fibre wing as specified by IAI. The wing used metal fasteners to attach to a carbon skin to carbon spars. This failed in static testing and they reverted to a carbon skin over aluminium ribs. The wing that was eventually delivered was found to be too small and had to be redesigned again to meet performance goals. To credit of the IAI engineers it did, though it did disrupt the flight testing program.
Great video, I never knew anything about this plane! Thanks for the unbiased information, its great to still see some genuine information being shared, so much fakery going around these days. Technology doesn't care about borders or political agendas, those with the will and the need to be better than others seem to find a way when they focus on the problems. I'm sure that Israel isn't the only country to do this, I look forward to more similar videos in the future.
It's also worth noting that the Lavi program created a huge brain drain within Israel. So many technical experts were needed for the Lavi that there weren't enough people to work on any other major programs. The Lavi's cancellation freed up that workforce to go work on other, probably more important, things like Iron Dome.
You’re off by a couple of decades. The cancellation of the Lavi occurred during the latter 1980s, and led directly to the elimination of over 4,900 jobs in the Israeli aerospace industry within the span of a single year. Most of those engineers and technicians left the aerospace industry, never to return. Many left Israel to find jobs overseas. Israel Aerospace Industries fell from a work force of 22,000 in 1987 to 14,000 by 1994. By 2013 they employed some 16,000. To this day, Israel’s aerospace manufacturers have never fully recovered. They can develop missiles, but not warplanes. They have lost that expertise and infrastructure. Iron Dome didn’t emerge until decades later, entering development in 2005.
John Golan is indeed right that the direct connection to the Iron Dome project is.. very loose. Though, the gist of the reply was right, the Lavi project made around 5000 unemployed high tech experts which have led to the boost of The Silicon Wadi. Some left Israel, but most stayed and created “Start Up Nation” www.google.nl/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startupnationcentral/2019/09/24/the-shared-tech-roots-of-silicon-valley-and-israels-startup-nation/amp/
@@amitrabin1667 IAI Manufacturing produces the Kfir Block 60 fighter jet with technology developed for the F15, F16UF35 and the most sophisticated weapon system used by the Israeli Air Force ruclips.net/video/MqHW69Yhy8I/видео.html
The j10 is similar but the euro fighter typhoon is my favourite and never forgot the kfir telling this to all the people is great here on RUclips and knowing how my drawings when I was a kid became part of history specially in aviation
We do know for sure j10 and Lavi ARE not related. Just look at the canard position. Lavi uses a extreme form of close coupled canard (honestly, I think it is doubtful they got flight system working given Israeli lacks a proper wind tunnel to test this arrangement) meanwhile j10 uses a sort of mid position canard design. This design detail difference shows these two aircraft are completely different in terms of flight characteristics therefore can not be related. It is likely China if had any information on Lavi, would be more of the What not to do kind
the majority of what the Israelis theoretically sold isnt the outside bits, ideas from the wing design and canards were supposedly implemented, but the avionics on the plane are world class even today compared to the Typhoon, Rafale, and SuperHornet; which is what was most likely copied over. i doubt the chinese would pay anything for a plane schematic to copy over what to not do....
@@adibar9066 Lavi’s avionics wasn’t working yet. The FBW system was done completely by American, and like I said, China couldn’t use it even if it was sold to them since canard position would mandate completely different fbw system designs. The engine difference means engine control system and fuel systems are different. The intake difference would mean completely different parameters, again for flight control. We know radar systems are different. After all that, what is left of Lavi to copy? The most I would say China got was probably Lavi test data, if anything was sold at all, that probably told Chinese not to design a closed coupled canard. However, even that is unlikely given Chinese canard design always favored mid position placement even before Lavi.
@@keith6371 It's like i brought a honda city from scrap changed all it's components with my own, and did some design adjustment where it required. Will you call it honda city or new car??
@@mausenpai215 more like you took a look at Honda city, decided it was a piece of junk. Designed a rear wheel drive car with a different engine and transmission, is it still a Honda city? Because the difference between a close coupled canard VS middle coupled canard is as big as the difference between a rear wheel drive and a front wheel drive. You really should educate yourself more, sounds like you have no idea about basic aerodynamics
The two seat Lavi framework could do well with a "Loyal wing man" type AI in the 2nd seat to augment the pilot's situational awareness and to bring the aircraft home if the plot was incapacitated. Much like the R@ Astromech in Star Wars
One thing came out of the cancelation of the Lavi Jet project. Hundreds of Engineers found themselves with no job and started to look for some employment. That was the beginning of the famous Israeli High-tech.
One of the biggest pitties in the industry. Politics and pressure killed the TSR-2, VC-10, Britain's first attempt at braking the sound barrier, (yet the X-1 is an exact replica of the design frim Miles) just to mention the tip of the iceberg. I followed the progress of the Lavi from early days, and I knew right from the off the the Americans would do all they could to put an end to the programme. Simply because it was at least as good as anything they had, or better. IAI could have a much bigger share in front line fighter production had this come to fruition.
As soon as I saw a photo of a J10 I said . . . "Hmmm I know what that looks like." Janes also spoke of cooperation between designers in the two countries. Someone claiming to be involved somehow with the US weaponry industry pointed out to me the difference in weight but the exact empty and loaded weights for the J10 aren't necessarily correctly estimated or known. And even if so it doesn't rule out the direct influence on the design.
Keep in mind that both Israel's defense minister and Chinese J10 designer Song Wencong denied such connection. Israelies denied the collaboration and Chinese claim the design of J10 is inherited fro J9 project which is way before Lavi. Don't know why this video deliberately ignore those claims
@@aidenchen1275 Cyclists that dope say they don't too . . . But you're probably right although since they share unusual features some influence is not out of the realm of possibility. Grumman F7F looks a lot like Kawasaki Ki 102s but you can't say anything more than influence. I only mention it because Japan was always mistakenly accused of copying western designs but the Ki 102 preceded the "Tigercat". Vertical stabilizer and rudder looks Grumman, the rest looks like a "Randycat ", lol
At ):49, you said, "the Israeli's launched their attack." This is incorrect. They RESPONDED to multiple, coordinated attacks from their enemies. They had to use the weapons at hand. It wasn't the first, or the last time Israel was attacked by their enemies. In fact, it probably is not the last war to occur there, even today. After all, Syria is just across their North-eastern border.
Great video! Just two pronunciation remarks: In Hebrew the stress usually falls on the last syllable like in French. So it's not LA-vi, but la-VI, sounds exactly like "la vie" in French Kfir is pronounced exactly as it's written K-fir, its rhymes with "Clear", and there's no eh sound in that word. Also in case you ever make a video about Israeli tanks, it's pronounced merka-VA.
Thank you for the video. Just a little remark : the french did not put a weapon embargo on Israel because of the 6 days war in 1967, but because of the Israeli attack on Beirut Airport (Operation Gift) in 1968. This attack destroyed several Middle East Airlines civil aircrafts, and at that time Middle East Airlines belonged to Air France, so France did not take it well.
Seems to me startedas a decent idea (native built type blend of an f16 & kifir ) turned into a textbook case of demonstrating of how adding complexity to the basic original idea (pluspolitics/corruption ) is the quickest way to make a big military project fail. They also forgot someone else was footing a lot of the bill! The Lavi is a bit like the Mitsubishi F2......what’s the point in making pretty much a much more expensive F16? It’s about national pride rather than improving capability, at least the Japanese were able to carry the project though!.
Isn't this just an F16 with delta wings???? Cant any of you see this....I for one cannot unsee it...it reminds me of a smaller version of the experimental F16 XL
About the development of J-10, there was rumors on the Chinese internet that, there indeed was some information exchanged with the Israelis. Some sort of cooperation between China and Israel in regard to fighter plane development existed as far back as early 1980s. On the other hand, the J-10 is unlikely to simply be a copy of Lavi. rumors has it that Lavi had some serious flight characteristics issue. The Chinese had to lengthen the body, change the shape of the wings, and move the location of the canards the fix the problems. In the end, it’s basically a new airframe. However, the FBW software and some avionics are possible to be related to Israeli products.
Completely agree. I dont think the J-10 is a straight copy. But technical defence cooperation between Israel and China in the 80s is a documented fact (as it was with most western countries as well) and so I fully suspect technical data was supplied that assisted in J-10 program. It's a bit like the YAk-41. The F-35 isn't a copy, but technical info from the program helped with development.
Adapt the air frame for two engines and Canada may have been a customer, cause you know, two engines are better than one in the Arctic, or so the "reasoning" goes.
It might have looked a lot like a Typhoon with Two Engines - mind you Dassault created a thing of Beauty in the Mirage 4000,maybe Canada should have bought that.
Heh. Canada calling. Neat idea. And a dark horse in the present season of our decades-long replace-the-Hornet saga is Sweden's Gripen E, a jet not wholly unlike the Lavi. But we have this history of getting all starry-eyed over the wrong type. Thus, the F-35 is still almost a sure thing for the RCAF of the future...
It is not an insult to say it is a delta F-16. The design looks much like a combination of the F-16 and the Typhoon. All three share design elements that make them among the most capable aircraft in the sky.
Can you do a video on the Tunisian air force? They currently have F-5's but are trying to upgrade to F-16's and are interested in buying used Kuwaiti F-18's. Thank you.
Israel was able to afford the Lavi. It was ameican 'jewish' senators and congressman that pushed for Israel to stop productoin because it would have threatened the american military industrial comlex monopoly on the Israeli defense industry.
Great video about a very intetesting fighter-jet, which could have been a real export success for Israel, and so playing a great role in Israel's yearly military budget spending.
24 seconds into this video you mention that Israel had to contend with the air-forces of Arab and the wider Islamic world. That is true, but you might add that Israel also fought the Russian air-force working for Egypt.
I have to say no. I have heard the J10 Lavi claim before but J10 is substantially bigger. That might not seem like much but for Aviation that means a substantially different engineering. We also see around the world at that time a number of similar aircraft types in development, Eurofighter, Grippen, Rafale. So the delta canard configuration was in vogue at the time. The Chinese like to claim that they were evolving off work on the failed J9 program. That seems reasonable. Now could they have been partially inspired by Lavi? Maybe. Of like how some people draw lines between Yak 141 and F35 it could just be a case of testing data used to confirm a expectation.
It did not. The F-16 had better T/W even with AA weapon load out and 50% fuel weight... The engine of the F-16 was the PW F110-220 and it produced literally thousands of lbs of thrust more than the Lavi's did - Israel, going for an indigenous engine with the help of PW, gave up a lot in doing so. Propoulsion technology is something the Americans have excelled at for over 70 years and it's usually the breaking factor between aircraft. The F-16's higher thrust meant it would maintain a higher sustained turned rate than the Lavi. Much like other delta's however; where the Lavi would shine is having better low speed control than non-canard fighters AND the high instantaneous turn rate (snaps) that delta winged fighters are known for. However, this snap dumps all energy; making it viable in 1v1 dogfights but not in full on brawls where energy endurance matters NOR does it help in sustained SAM defense maneuvering. Where the Israeli's are very good is in electronics. One of the best in the world. By far. They and Japan are known for the component quality and in Israel's case, they're so damned good with their electronics that they often order US aircraft without certain avionics onboard as they're the only ones allowed to modify and make their own. They do this even with the brand new F-35 "Adir".
Nah. The US knew that the Lavi was intended for "non-aligned" countries, as an alternative to the F-16, and less politically constraining to buy. Buying US weapons has huge political implications, and the US are super protective about their tech. Israel doesn't care about patents and ownership.
It's a pity, of course, but the lack of its own engine, financial difficulties and external pressure caused the abandonment of this handsome fighter. However, not only Israel was forced to cancel it's program, the Egyptian neighbors were also forced to close their HA-300 project it would be interesting to look at the intellectual rivalry between neighbours🤷🏼♀️
clear F-16 influence. Chop the wings off and place it next to an F-16 fuselage if you don't believe me. Plus, the US gov did provide some degree of assistance on the LAVI. Mirage -> Kfir F-16 -> LAVI -> J-10 I love both the Kfir and the LAVI though, don't get me wrong.
@@gibbsm Nor are most countries that develop aircraft. Aircraft are expensive, so you emulate what works to save money. Iran, China, Israel, Japan, South Korea... even Russia.
@@gibbsm IAI does not make small arms and tanks. I think you are confusing IAI with IMI (Israeli Military Industries), which is a totally different company. As the video noted, IAI had quite an experience of building aircraft by the 1980s. The video is somewhat incorrect in that the Kfir was not a “copy” of the Mirage. That was actually the Nesher model that preceded it. The Kfir is a much modified design which uses a completely different engine than the French Mirages do.
My actual favorite forgotten aircraft is the Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer, the follow on to the great F-104. I'm hoping to see some serious analysis of that one some day ☺.
It was reported that isaeli consultants/designers where engaged to aerodynamic and structural outlines of the J10. Israelis also sold the design of the radar to the Chinese, the same radar used in the J10, the missle tech, which was sold to China and produce das the PL8 AA missile. So it IS a Lavi copy, in the sense theres key components were either deisgned by Israelis or straight up licenced Israeli tech.
I don't understand why Israel stops the furture developement of the LAVI. Today it could be better than every F 16. From design it is for me the most beautiful fighter jet of all 4th gen fighter. I bet the US stopped it because it was clear on it's way to beat the F 16.
The US had a change of heart, they decided they did not want US state of the art equipment being exported by Israel. I am sure that the US would not have agreed to US funded tech being sold to China
I think, given the time differences and the fact that they are NOT exact copies of the Lavi, that the Chinese simply did their best to copy an, admittedly excellent aircraft that wasn't even in production. So what's the big deal?
The IIAI Lavi, could'a, should'a, would'a. Some in the US military industrial complex were scared Israel would out shine there products, and probably with good reason.
You point up the marketability of parts of a cancelled project. Yes indeed. We in Canada let one get away like that: the Iroquois engine from the cancelled Avro CF-105 programme. The aircraft was a (glorious) white elephant. But the engine, with development, could have been a moneyspinner... Actually the Arrow, "Canada's TSR2", would be another good video subject...
The Lavi nearly bankrupted Israel !! .These days the Lavi is found in the Israeli Air Force Museum , south of Be'er Sheva , along with the Avia S-199 ( ME 109 variant , that like the ME 109 was great in the air , but claimed pilots lives on landing ) and also the P51 D whose propeller and wings were used to cut Egyptian telephone lines during the Suez Crisis of 1956
Its called the J 10 now, well, almost.
You check the particulars and find that the J-10 is without doubt came from transferred Lavy blueprints - modified for Chinese tastes. Nickname:"Lavi-san"
Definitely it was built with lavi tech , until the Tiananmen square massacre even the americans,british and french were helping the chinese modernize their military to fendoff the soviet union. When the protests and massacre happened the deals fell off due to western pressure but that didnt stop the Israelis from selling weapons and tech to the chinese in the 1990s and early 2000s with the abortive phalcon radar deal which was stopped with immense US pressure(its fruit is KJ-2000 awacs), they also were caught selling drones and loitering munitions technology recently. Chinese have the money and Israelis need money to maintain their heavily militarized state at constant readiness and with cutting edge technology
@@jzk3919 LMAO no. If you use 'san' as a suffix. It will be Japanese, you wrote is considered insulting to the CCP. They wouldn't mind if you said copied.
@@tachyonzero San is also used in mainland Asia. Just sayin'.........
@@patrickmichaelspencecooler4768 San means 3 in Chinese.
At least the Israelis preserved a bit of their aviation history for posterity, unlike others (looking at you, Canada).
American pressure led to the liquidation of the Avro CF-105 Arrow fighter jet project .Even now, Israel manufactures Kfir fighter jets in Block 60
ruclips.net/video/kJnDrRjYUW4/видео.html
Canada 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Canada is always aware a US invasion, this is not a joke!
Our (Canadian) aviation abilities in any shape or form are equal to or less than that of poorest third world countries. ........yea. 😑
@@gabrieljoseph6310 "Even now, Israel manufactures Kfir fighter jets".... Really? On which conspiracy website did you read this??
@@s.marcus3669 Today IAI produces Kfir Block 60 which is better than any F16's, but the Israeli Air Force fell in love with American aid so they closed the Lavi project.
Chinese folk here. Gotta love the Lavi! People here say that J-10's airframe is quite different, (different main wing and much further canard placement for maneuverability) but the fly by wire system borrows a ton from it. Hey, we have to learn it from somewhere. Funnily, when my dad downloaded me the first leaked images of J-10 in the 2000s, there were actually Lavi pics mixed in, and I was confused af by the hexagram. Good time. Both sexy planes.
It is not the physical aspects of the jet that is derived from Lavi, but the tech involved in how to build it. That tech itself was ' borrowed ' from the US.
LoL
Please UPDATE your information, Don't brag too much when you don't know the exact info!
The J-10 was developed from the J-9 of the Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute. The J-9 was designed in the 1960s. The design goal was to intercept the Soviet Tu-22M and the US B-1B. However, due to insufficient engine performance, the flight performance of the J-9 could not meet the design targets, so it was planned to cancel in the late 1970s.In the 1960s design, the J-9 had adopted the long arm canard. IAI LAVI is close coupled canard, which is completely different. More similar to EF2000.
@@creativevines3535 you do not master the delta wing - canard configuration easily, hence why there are so few aircraft that has it as a wing layout. The J series had always been swept wing but the J-10 was a unique breed of its own.
Hes not saying that the J-10 is a Chinese copy, the J-10 is simply the Lavi with Chinese characteristics and it works.
The South African Airforce through Denel Industries produced a Mirage III fitted with canards called the Cheetah! I actually saw the tooling for the canards during a visit to Denel back in the day. PS I was the design draughtsman (sub-contracted firm to Armscor/Denel) for the Defender/Striker 12 gauge 12 shot rotary drum shotgun with folding stock and a 6 shot 40 mm ballistite grenade launcher amongst other military projects. Thanks ED for the very interesting material.
I've always been impressed with South African designs, ingenuity, and practicality. The Rooikat for example is neat o
The South African Cheetah was actually developed with some cooperation with Israel's IAI.
I had heard of the Lavi before, and I recognized the J10 as also being an "F-16 with delta wings," but I didn't put the connection together until this video. They're nearly identical.
There are. In fact, the only major difference is the russian, reverse engineered engine which is longer then the american pw1120. Hence, the enlargement in the overall length of the fuselage and also in some minor visual dissimilarities
J-20 looks similar to MIG 1.44 too... J-31 looks similar to F-35... JF-17 looks similar to Izdeliye 33... Checkmate looks similar to Northrop MRF-54E.
Lavi is a small fighter with a close-range canard wing, and its swept wing is not a complete delta wing, with the maximum engine thrust of 93kn. J-10 is a medium-sized fighter with a mid-range canard wing, one size larger than Lavi , and the maximum engine thrust of 130-144kn, which is a complete delta wing.
Mig 1. 44 has nothing to do with stealth fighters.Mig1.44 is just an enlarged rafale.
Russia and China have long history of copying and reverse engineering and saying" no I didn't, we did it first"
Proven fact.
That was clear to Israel right off the top in 1948. Of course that early they could not possibly have developed their own combat type, but they were almost totally embargoed and had to get creative with procurement. The result (initially) was the sublime irony of Israel's first fighters being Czech Avia C210s, a variant of the Nazis' vaunted Messerschmitt 109. (That story, Ed, would make a great video subject...)
they were avia s-199 sakins. which were czech built me 109's with junkers bomber engines lol
Looks like they put a Gripen and a Falcon in a hanger with some Teddy Pendergrass playing and turned off the lights.
Isn't this before the Gripen came?
Only Lavi was the source, IAI invented the idea of Steerable canards that later, Rafael, Gripen, and EuroFighters will copy
@@SUomiist I wonder if Israel was a larger nation with more people what more they could've done
You are right but it lacks the Jas 39 low drag.
@@mnd7381 Yes, but unfortunately one third of them had been murdered.
Some corrections to the pronunciation:
“Dassault” is pronounced Da-saw
“Kfir” is pronounced as written rather than Keh-fir
“Lavi” is not pronounced like the word ‘savvy’. The emphasis should be on the second syllable: la-VEE
Well technically kfir should be pronounced as kefir,
but nobody pronounce it like that today.
'Da-sohw', surely?
kfir is ok
@@arielbemeliahu8619 close enough for government work.
Kfir - how does it pronounced?
I appreciate the geopolitical context vis: the IAI Lavi that this vid provides, whereas some other vids just go into the technical and logistical facts behind aircraft lik this... cheers.
The Mirage 5 copy, was named "Nesher" (Eagle), It served well in Yom Kippur war in 1973. the French embargo came after Israel paid already for 50 units and had to replace battle losses of the six days war and the phasing out of old aircraft.
The cancellation of the Lavi project was the biggest push to the Israeli Hi-Tech industry, since many employees who worked over the project were let go and went to the private sector after working on high end technology project.
The J-10 seems to be more inspired by the Lavi than a copy. there are differences in the wing shape, aircraft size, rudder shape, air intakes, canard location and their shape. the j-10 also has a "line" on its back just like the Eurofighter. it will be interesting to compare 4 planes that were designed at around the same time , Lavi, J-10, Griffen and Eurofighter.
אסף, הטמבל הבריטי שעשה את הוידאו הזה, מסתיר את האמת ומראה את האנטישמיות שלו באופן ברור, חתיכת שמוק אם אתה שואל את דעתי.
Excellent video, brother.
*never underestimate Israeli capacity to overcome, develop and achieve goals indigenously*
Yes, especially when they are gifted 200 billion dollars.
@@syedshah9836" he said 2 billion" never the less, the other way one can look at it;
Money resources and knowledge is given and gifted all the time all around the world on a daily basis, (Africa, Middle East, Asia, South America and Europe) and yet very few actually managed to use it to better the situation. specialy when you think of the undergoing building of a nation in a desert land with water scarcity while fighting several wars with several countries and still able to establish a country at the top tier in 80 years or so... Respect.
@@aaaccc8707 Has any other country been given such largesse in the last 70 years, no thought not. So keep your nonsensical ramblings to yourself and answer the actual question...
@@syedshah9836 And saving the Americans as twice.
@@syedshah9836 Not one single Cent and not in 70 years.
The Lavi reminds me of the F-16 XL with the addition of a canard. (great idea in that the XL prototypes outperformed the standard F-16 in every way)
My first thoughts exactly!
I seen a photo somewhere speculating on a modern delta F-16 with stealthy design elements and F-35 avionics. Looked pretty sick. A single engine longer ranged super cruising weapons truckster.
@@gibu002 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Dynamics_F-16XL
the "cranked arrow" on the XL is way cooler than a basic delta.
@@gibbsm Agreed... especially when it "accidentally" achieved super-cruse in testing. Mach 1.1 without the aid of re-heat.
There a old usage , if a aircraft looks right it is right. This plane looks the business ! A second thing, if you can do a thing yourself is always better then relying on others . The Israelis did a remarkable job with this aircraft . A remarkable effort !!
With 'Merikan taxes... just saying
@@billhanna2148 Aircraft are expensive and Israel is a small country. I still think credit where it's due.
@@vaclav_fejt True enough
He did say they built it mostly on credit.
Yes, Israel is very good at developing technology.
@@billhanna2148 So predictable.
The Israeli's seek to push their qualitative advantage, not quantitative. You can't keep up on numbers when you are outnumbered 10 to 1.
but america eont let any nation have better stuff than it. they legit started a cold war with russia so they could show how big their "stick" is (and russia got carried away too)
@@BlackMasterRoshi i have no idea whats your news source but irl israel tries too much to look like the "good guys" it costs us our own solider's lives. a poor IDF solider was shot in thr head near a border because theres no restrictions for palestinians to amass near the border.
the current goverment is way too soft with hamas, giving them anything they want and ignoring all their attacks. one day an extremist will rise and the hamas will regret it refusing the prace treaty offers...
@@ofekk213 Wrong buddy.
You can not blame ONE country for the "cold war".
That's just plain idiotic.
BOTH countries tried to one up the other since day one after WW2 ended.
The "cold war" was the culmination of years of back and forth on who had more of what in terms of arms, but it was RUSSIA that lied first with the TU95, they were proven liars with U2 over flights of Russian, and it went from there.
Check your history facts and data.
Friend of mine flew the Lavi an d was very impressed with it. South Africa loved it.
In Flight Simulator no doubt.
Ah, two seat Lavi's. So nice to share your movement with a partner ;-) Carry On at Your Convenience...
I’m glad they wiped the slate clean and started with a new design. I’m gonna assume they used flush riveting on the prototypes, both number one and number two.
The Kfir & Lavi cast the same shade as the Atlas Cheetah... an obscure aircraft not yet covered by Mr. Nash.
Sounds like when the us got word of the Navi program, they got nervous that this foreign developed airplane would be able to outperform their current aircraft, so Ragean lifted the arms embargo ban so he could sell new f-16s to Israel Hoping that they would cancel the Navi program. That’s what I think
La-vi (a Lion in Hebrew), not Navi.
It was less because he wanted to sell the F-16 but because Carters old policy was because he wanted to improve relations with the Soviets by restricting American arms trade, however by Reagans time relations had begun to sour so no need to keep the Soviets happy by restricting arms. Might as well arm your allies and keep your own defense industry happy
Nope, with Grunmman's extensive involvement the Lavi was as much an American program as it was Israeli
It’s interesting to think that pilots from Israel, America, Saudi Arabia, and may be the UK May one day have to face a Chinese copy of a Israeli aircraft funded by America As there has been reports that the Iranians may be interested in purchasing the Chinese J 10 Vigourous dragon.
what a shocker....
Perhaps Israel would be flying F-22's if the J-10 hadn't shown a need to keep US tech locked down tight.
Being chinese copies, they would be lucky to even last 5 minutes. None of china's copycat aircraft are very good at matching the aircraft they copy.
I understand the Chinese engines are no match.
@@BigBrainBrian Thats my understanding as well. Chinese aircraft copies are very capable aircraft but they have trouble creating engines as powerful as the original in the same size factor. Underpowered. Once they solve this issue they will be even more formidable. Even now though they are a serious adversary. Just as the Soviet Union was a dangerous adversary even if (if) aircraft may not have been a 1 for 1 match with western aircraft, they had a lot of positive advantages like sturdy reliable build, ease of maintenance, and large numbers. Imagine a china that now has those same qualities but a national economy that isn't going to go away and collapse anytime soon.
All the Lavi technology probably didn't go to waste and has been transitioned into other aircraft design, that makes good business sense.
The Lavi prototypes look similar to the Rafale, and the F-16, but even more like the J-10 fighter.
The F-16 came before Lavi, and Rafale and J-10 both came after. It looks very much like the F-16XL with the addition of canards but there were also a lot of internal differences between it and the F-16. Personally I think the Israelies made the wrong call. I believe if it had been fully developed that it would have given the F-16, the Rafale and the Gripen all runs for their money.
@@ImpendingJoker ~ Israelis have loved the F-16 since it first came out and would have had knowledge of the F-16XL. They probably had access to high level information from Dassault Aviation and the Saab, fighter programs, and probably decided it was easier to buy the best equipment rather than make it. So they stopped developing the Lavi and parlayed it's engineering assets into business assets.
Kfir Block 60
ruclips.net/video/_icXzMYdYHY/видео.html
@@martentrudeau6948 The Israeli IAI and the Israeli government canceled Lavi because the Israeli Air Force wanted to buy 40 planes instead of 100. The pressure from an American to cancel the project at the time Lavi was more sophisticated and more advanced aerobics than F16.
@@gabrieljoseph6310 ~ The popularity of the F-16 was it's simplicity, ease of maintenance and low cost. The Lavi was meant to be an air superiority fighter.
As a long-time F-16 fan, having parked the Thunderbirds at Dover in 1976 - I like it !
Wow, I have just started your audiobook. The prologue made my hairs stand on end!
Very well presented video. One of ya best boss. I love Israeli Air Force history. From flying WW2 fighters with the wrong engine to the 6 day war to building their own jets (with a little help) and dominating the air. PS Those Chinese jets looked good.
Not just WWII fighters, but a variant of the Nazis' most-produced warplane. The irony is delicious...I'd love to see a video about the Israeli Avias.
When you wear blinders to avoid getting tied up in the politics, Israeli military gear really is fasinating. Scraps, leftovers, reverse-engineering, retrofitting, refurbishing, hoegrown genius, and half-finished plans, but so much trial by fire that only the best equipment lasts as a standard.
"With a little help" - understatement of the millenium. Most of the tech is hijacked if not outright stolen. No access to US Treasury funds since March 2020 is going change things up a bit for "Israel". I hope Putin wipes them like a dirty arse.
The j-10 always felt like the kid of the lavi and Mig 1.44 to me
Aren't most 'J' aircrafts the same?
The Chinese J-10 jet was built in the 80's with the Israeli plans of the Lavi, Right after cancelling the Lavi project. One can see how similar they look like.
@@simko8665 true .
Carter was playing footsie with the Arabs- remember the "oil crisis"? He played chicken with them and lost. Reagan was elected partly on breaking into the US strategic oil reserve, which broke the Arabs' stranglehold.
The Lavi was just a strong hint to the US that Israel would, if pressed, not depend on US war materiels, and they dropped the program when the US dropped the embargo which was the desired effect.
Kinda like the tank situation which Israel resolved with the Merkava, except they had to run that program to completion. Do not doubt that the US defense industries took a lesson from that.
The Lavi, if successful, was to be followed by the "Khazi" and the "Dunny"
It would have had to be flown exclusively by guys names “John” and “Leu”
What is this reference? My mind only went to cousin Avi. :D "You know, London! Fish, chips, cup o' tea, bad food, worse weather, Mary fuckin' Poppins - London!"
@@vaclav_fejt The Lavi - the worlds original "single seater"
Figured that this comment existed. Came in search. Found it.
@@vaclav_fejt - It’s an anti aircraft gun Vincent!
The mirage 3 was an excellent design , but in order to maintain its performance after
EVERY flight the instrumentation , especially the electronic gun controls required complete recalibration... YES after EVERY flight ! !
Rubbish
Thanks Ed 🙏🙏 this plane was a sore spot in my Aviation Engineers club ... the carbon fiber wings were so hard to build that they had to revert to aluminum wings... and we couldn't see the point of the program
The wings were carbon fiber. What they abandoned was the co-cured concept to form the spars and the skin in a single operation. Most composite wings and control surfaces are manufactured in this manner.
Japan’s F-2 was the rare exception which proceeded down the co-cured route, leading to a steep learning curve and higher development cost.
As for the point of the program, that has already been described elsewhere. Delivering a strike radius of a Block 52+ F-16C (with conformal fuel tanks) with an empty weight less than a Block 15 F-16A is quite the achievement.
@@JohnGolan Thank you for the correction, it would have been a US Taxpayers funded serious Israeli competitor to a US Taxpayers funded GDs F16 no doubt
Grumman signed-on as a partner in the program, with an agreement to built a separate US assembly line to cover export orders. The airplane was as much a US development program as it was Israeli.
It was no accident that nearly half of the Lavi was to be developed and produced in the US. It meant that the US could be persuaded to continue funding both development and production of the aircraft. Producing the Lavi would translate directly into US jobs.
It also made the Lavi a potential contender for sales to the US Air Force - something the Rafale or Typhoon could never have contemplated. Attempts to market the Lavi to the US Air Force came to a halt, of course, when the program was cancelled.
Grumman was unable to produce the co-cured carbon fibre wing as specified by IAI. The wing used metal fasteners to attach to a carbon skin to carbon spars. This failed in static testing and they reverted to a carbon skin over aluminium ribs.
The wing that was eventually delivered was found to be too small and had to be redesigned again to meet performance goals. To credit of the IAI engineers it did, though it did disrupt the flight testing program.
beautiful design with a powerful engine
gorgeous looking aircraft !
You confused the two. Kfir means lion cub while Lavi is a lion. 4:24
Actually it means lioness
@@truemediaisrael8769 Lioness is Levia, pronounced le-vee-Ah
Great video, I never knew anything about this plane! Thanks for the unbiased information, its great to still see some genuine information being shared, so much fakery going around these days.
Technology doesn't care about borders or political agendas, those with the will and the need to be better than others seem to find a way when they focus on the problems. I'm sure that Israel isn't the only country to do this, I look forward to more similar videos in the future.
It's also worth noting that the Lavi program created a huge brain drain within Israel. So many technical experts were needed for the Lavi that there weren't enough people to work on any other major programs. The Lavi's cancellation freed up that workforce to go work on other, probably more important, things like Iron Dome.
You’re off by a couple of decades. The cancellation of the Lavi occurred during the latter 1980s, and led directly to the elimination of over 4,900 jobs in the Israeli aerospace industry within the span of a single year. Most of those engineers and technicians left the aerospace industry, never to return. Many left Israel to find jobs overseas.
Israel Aerospace Industries fell from a work force of 22,000 in 1987 to 14,000 by 1994. By 2013 they employed some 16,000. To this day, Israel’s aerospace manufacturers have never fully recovered. They can develop missiles, but not warplanes. They have lost that expertise and infrastructure.
Iron Dome didn’t emerge until decades later, entering development in 2005.
John Golan is indeed right that the direct connection to the Iron Dome project is.. very loose.
Though, the gist of the reply was right, the Lavi project made around 5000 unemployed high tech experts which have led to the boost of The Silicon Wadi.
Some left Israel, but most stayed and created “Start Up Nation”
www.google.nl/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/startupnationcentral/2019/09/24/the-shared-tech-roots-of-silicon-valley-and-israels-startup-nation/amp/
UAI ,Israel is the first country to use UAVs
@@amitrabin1667 IAI Manufacturing produces the Kfir Block 60 fighter jet with technology developed for the F15, F16UF35 and the most sophisticated weapon system used by the Israeli Air Force
ruclips.net/video/MqHW69Yhy8I/видео.html
The iron dome project was decades later, there is no connection between the things you mentioned
You can see the SAABs in this design . Looks very similar to the Current Grippen .
The difference is time or when. Saab had the Viggens.
@@tomas7158 . I know . This DOES look more like the Current Grippen nonetheless .
Thanks, for this superb presentation of LAVI! 👍
Would love to see you do a video on the Mitsubish F-2....while im well aware there is more to it ,in simple terms an overside "japanese' F-16.
The j10 is similar but the euro fighter typhoon is my favourite and never forgot the kfir telling this to all the people is great here on RUclips and knowing how my drawings when I was a kid became part of history specially in aviation
The IAI Kfir (or the Nesher) I have to say is the best looking plane of the Era
Nooooooo 😢 12 to 11..... So close. I would have loved to see it get some action. I'm a big fan of Israel.
Great video though, I enjoyed it.
Big fan of Israel but if they want to be able to do their own thing, they will need to kick their dependence of US dollars.
@@irondiver2034 what do you expect them to do, such a small country. The lavi was also made in a time where the israeli economy was realy bad
Um the 12th voter was blackmailed it was even common knowledge in israel the upper ups made sure it looked Fair
We do know for sure j10 and Lavi ARE not related. Just look at the canard position. Lavi uses a extreme form of close coupled canard (honestly, I think it is doubtful they got flight system working given Israeli lacks a proper wind tunnel to test this arrangement) meanwhile j10 uses a sort of mid position canard design. This design detail difference shows these two aircraft are completely different in terms of flight characteristics therefore can not be related. It is likely China if had any information on Lavi, would be more of the What not to do kind
the majority of what the Israelis theoretically sold isnt the outside bits, ideas from the wing design and canards were supposedly implemented, but the avionics on the plane are world class even today compared to the Typhoon, Rafale, and SuperHornet; which is what was most likely copied over. i doubt the chinese would pay anything for a plane schematic to copy over what to not do....
@@adibar9066 Lavi’s avionics wasn’t working yet. The FBW system was done completely by American, and like I said, China couldn’t use it even if it was sold to them since canard position would mandate completely different fbw system designs. The engine difference means engine control system and fuel systems are different. The intake difference would mean completely different parameters, again for flight control. We know radar systems are different. After all that, what is left of Lavi to copy? The most I would say China got was probably Lavi test data, if anything was sold at all, that probably told Chinese not to design a closed coupled canard. However, even that is unlikely given Chinese canard design always favored mid position placement even before Lavi.
@@keith6371
It's like i brought a honda city from scrap changed all it's components with my own, and did some design adjustment where it required.
Will you call it honda city or new car??
If there was money to be made Israel would sell the most advanced tech to the USA's deadliest enemy.
@@mausenpai215 more like you took a look at Honda city, decided it was a piece of junk. Designed a rear wheel drive car with a different engine and transmission, is it still a Honda city? Because the difference between a close coupled canard VS middle coupled canard is as big as the difference between a rear wheel drive and a front wheel drive. You really should educate yourself more, sounds like you have no idea about basic aerodynamics
The two seat Lavi framework could do well with a "Loyal wing man" type AI in the 2nd seat to augment the pilot's situational awareness and to bring the aircraft home if the plot was incapacitated. Much like the R@ Astromech in Star Wars
One thing came out of the cancelation of the Lavi Jet project. Hundreds of Engineers found themselves with no job and started to look for some employment.
That was the beginning of the famous Israeli High-tech.
One of the biggest pitties in the industry. Politics and pressure killed the TSR-2, VC-10, Britain's first attempt at braking the sound barrier, (yet the X-1 is an exact replica of the design frim Miles) just to mention the tip of the iceberg. I followed the progress of the Lavi from early days, and I knew right from the off the the Americans would do all they could to put an end to the programme. Simply because it was at least as good as anything they had, or better. IAI could have a much bigger share in front line fighter production had this come to fruition.
Great video brother...
Well she's immortalized in the PC game "Janes IAF". A shame the jet didn't work out for the IAF.
As soon as I saw a photo of a J10 I said . . . "Hmmm I know what that looks like." Janes also spoke of cooperation between designers in the two countries. Someone claiming to be involved somehow with the US weaponry industry pointed out to me the difference in weight but the exact empty and loaded weights for the J10 aren't necessarily correctly estimated or known. And even if so it doesn't rule out the direct influence on the design.
Keep in mind that both Israel's defense minister and Chinese J10 designer Song Wencong denied such connection. Israelies denied the collaboration and Chinese claim the design of J10 is inherited fro J9 project which is way before Lavi. Don't know why this video deliberately ignore those claims
@@aidenchen1275 Cyclists that dope say they don't too . . . But you're probably right although since they share unusual features some influence is not out of the realm of possibility.
Grumman F7F looks a lot like Kawasaki Ki 102s but you can't say anything more than influence. I only mention it because Japan was always mistakenly accused of copying western designs but the Ki 102 preceded the "Tigercat". Vertical stabilizer and rudder looks Grumman, the rest looks like a "Randycat ", lol
At ):49, you said, "the Israeli's launched their attack." This is incorrect. They RESPONDED to multiple, coordinated attacks from their enemies. They had to use the weapons at hand. It wasn't the first, or the last time Israel was attacked by their enemies. In fact, it probably is not the last war to occur there, even today. After all, Syria is just across their North-eastern border.
Awesome video thank you
Great video!
Just two pronunciation remarks:
In Hebrew the stress usually falls on the last syllable like in French.
So it's not LA-vi, but la-VI, sounds exactly like "la vie" in French
Kfir is pronounced exactly as it's written K-fir, its rhymes with "Clear", and there's no eh sound in that word.
Also in case you ever make a video about Israeli tanks, it's pronounced merka-VA.
Thank you! I'm now trying to get my head around how to say Kfir as I'll have to do that plane one day 😁
Dude, maybe we can get you to convince Ian McCollum to pronounce "Galil" properly, Lord knows, I've tried!
That's what happens when you leave a SAAB 39 and a F16 alone in a hanger one night.
Thank you for the video. Just a little remark : the french did not put a weapon embargo on Israel because of the 6 days war in 1967, but because of the Israeli attack on Beirut Airport (Operation Gift) in 1968. This attack destroyed several Middle East Airlines civil aircrafts, and at that time Middle East Airlines belonged to Air France, so France did not take it well.
Consistently interesting subjects on this channel.
Seems to me startedas a decent idea (native built type blend of an f16 & kifir ) turned into a textbook case of demonstrating of how adding complexity to the basic original idea (pluspolitics/corruption ) is the quickest way to make a big military project fail. They also forgot someone else was footing a lot of the bill! The Lavi is a bit like the Mitsubishi F2......what’s the point in making pretty much a much more expensive F16? It’s about national pride rather than improving capability, at least the Japanese were able to carry the project though!.
The point was that the USA became an unreliable source for future resources so long term planning had to account for that
@@nerome619 if that was what they truly thought doesn't make much sense to base it on a US technology ( that they could plug the on!)- does it?!
Isn't this just an F16 with delta wings???? Cant any of you see this....I for one cannot unsee it...it reminds me of a smaller version of the experimental F16 XL
About the development of J-10, there was rumors on the Chinese internet that, there indeed was some information exchanged with the Israelis. Some sort of cooperation between China and Israel in regard to fighter plane development existed as far back as early 1980s.
On the other hand, the J-10 is unlikely to simply be a copy of Lavi. rumors has it that Lavi had some serious flight characteristics issue. The Chinese had to lengthen the body, change the shape of the wings, and move the location of the canards the fix the problems. In the end, it’s basically a new airframe. However, the FBW software and some avionics are possible to be related to Israeli products.
Completely agree. I dont think the J-10 is a straight copy. But technical defence cooperation between Israel and China in the 80s is a documented fact (as it was with most western countries as well) and so I fully suspect technical data was supplied that assisted in J-10 program.
It's a bit like the YAk-41. The F-35 isn't a copy, but technical info from the program helped with development.
Nesher, not Kifir. The Nesher was the copy of the Mirage 5. The Kifir was a Mirage 5 with a J-79 engine shoved into it.
The Kfir was a Nether with a J-79 and better avionics
@@ronmaximilian6953 I think that's the point I was trying to make.
@@ronmaximilian6953 you're both wrong, Kfir was Mirage 3 not 5.
Hey. It's a Warm Weather Eurofighter ... ! 😄
10:22 yup, I think used in the FA50 and Tejas.
Domestic weapons production is something world lacks since the WW2. Israel should totally go for domestic production
It actually menaged to defeat 3 F-16's in a "dummy" dogfight.
Any links?
@@gsopoagmle I saw that on my local TV, chances are it's not on the internet, sorry :(
Not sure if weapons systems were ever installed on the Lavi, so this must have been all theoretical.
Awesome again.
Everything that Israel produces is amazing
Adapt the air frame for two engines and Canada may have been a customer, cause you know, two engines are better than one in the Arctic, or so the "reasoning" goes.
It might have looked a lot like a Typhoon with Two Engines - mind you Dassault created a thing of Beauty in the Mirage 4000,maybe Canada should have bought that.
Heh. Canada calling. Neat idea. And a dark horse in the present season of our decades-long replace-the-Hornet saga is Sweden's Gripen E, a jet not wholly unlike the Lavi. But we have this history of getting all starry-eyed over the wrong type. Thus, the F-35 is still almost a sure thing for the RCAF of the future...
@@StudeSteve62 Lavi. Israels Arrow.
Thanks to the US for forcing Canada to stop
The many unemployed engineers and technical crew from the cancelled Lavi ended up going in the private sector and created the Hi-Tech / Startup sector
Once again, *DAMN YOU JIMMY CARTER!*
It is not an insult to say it is a delta F-16. The design looks much like a combination of the F-16 and the Typhoon. All three share design elements that make them among the most capable aircraft in the sky.
could you make a video between iai lavi and grippen?
It "resembles an delta'd f16"...? Oh well they switched the side stick controller, and intake. Well that makes it a whole new craft! Also "J10"
And increase the dimensions, replacing the engine with a Soviet design, and change the wing elevators from weeping in to sweeping out.
And it only took them US$2 billion of someone else's money to do it all! What a remarkable achievement!
Can you do a video on the Tunisian air force? They currently have F-5's but are trying to upgrade to F-16's and are interested in buying used Kuwaiti F-18's. Thank you.
I did look into it, but the information is very sparse.
Israel was able to afford the Lavi.
It was ameican 'jewish' senators and congressman that pushed for Israel to stop productoin because it would have threatened the american military industrial comlex monopoly on the Israeli defense industry.
The best plane in Jane's IAF game.
The Lavi Re-loaded with super cruise and thrust vectoring coming soon, ha!
Great video about a very intetesting fighter-jet, which could have been a real export success for Israel, and so playing a great role in Israel's yearly military budget spending.
@0:00 im just gonna say its live and well in China..
24 seconds into this video you mention that Israel had to contend with the air-forces of Arab and the wider Islamic world. That is true, but you might add that Israel also fought the Russian air-force working for Egypt.
the lagacy of LAVI lives on today as j -10 ..
in al ardak
I have to say no. I have heard the J10 Lavi claim before but J10 is substantially bigger. That might not seem like much but for Aviation that means a substantially different engineering. We also see around the world at that time a number of similar aircraft types in development, Eurofighter, Grippen, Rafale. So the delta canard configuration was in vogue at the time. The Chinese like to claim that they were evolving off work on the failed J9 program. That seems reasonable. Now could they have been partially inspired by Lavi? Maybe. Of like how some people draw lines between Yak 141 and F35 it could just be a case of testing data used to confirm a expectation.
The reason the Lavi project was cancelled was because when the US saw that the Lavi outperformed all US jets they pushed to cancel it.
It did not.
The F-16 had better T/W even with AA weapon load out and 50% fuel weight...
The engine of the F-16 was the PW F110-220 and it produced literally thousands of lbs of thrust more than the Lavi's did - Israel, going for an indigenous engine with the help of PW, gave up a lot in doing so. Propoulsion technology is something the Americans have excelled at for over 70 years and it's usually the breaking factor between aircraft. The F-16's higher thrust meant it would maintain a higher sustained turned rate than the Lavi. Much like other delta's however; where the Lavi would shine is having better low speed control than non-canard fighters AND the high instantaneous turn rate (snaps) that delta winged fighters are known for. However, this snap dumps all energy; making it viable in 1v1 dogfights but not in full on brawls where energy endurance matters NOR does it help in sustained SAM defense maneuvering.
Where the Israeli's are very good is in electronics. One of the best in the world. By far. They and Japan are known for the component quality and in Israel's case, they're so damned good with their electronics that they often order US aircraft without certain avionics onboard as they're the only ones allowed to modify and make their own. They do this even with the brand new F-35 "Adir".
Nah. The US knew that the Lavi was intended for "non-aligned" countries, as an alternative to the F-16, and less politically constraining to buy. Buying US weapons has huge political implications, and the US are super protective about their tech. Israel doesn't care about patents and ownership.
the Hal Tejas is probably what the Lavi is now albeit over budget and placed in a similar role
It's a pity, of course, but the lack of its own engine, financial difficulties and external pressure caused the abandonment of this handsome fighter. However, not only Israel was forced to cancel it's program, the Egyptian neighbors were also forced to close their HA-300 project
it would be interesting to look at the intellectual rivalry between neighbours🤷🏼♀️
IAI LAVI also went over to China that helped China to developed J-10 with U$D wow
Changes in the wings of f 16 is levi and it's copy is j 10
Many Don’t like the fact this fine aircraft out perform the F-16j
The Israel had to protect itself from unpredictable West and gave the design to China for future protection.
bullshit
@EdNashsMilitaryMatters >>> 👍👍
Wondering if our chap will do one on the Iranian IAIO Qaher-313.
The plane was proved as a fake, not a real plane
J 10s canards are placed further forward from the wings compared to the Lavi
clear F-16 influence. Chop the wings off and place it next to an F-16 fuselage if you don't believe me. Plus, the US gov did provide some degree of assistance on the LAVI.
Mirage -> Kfir
F-16 -> LAVI -> J-10
I love both the Kfir and the LAVI though, don't get me wrong.
IAI is not original at all when it comes to aircraft, small arms and tanks are what they're good at.
@@gibbsm Nor are most countries that develop aircraft. Aircraft are expensive, so you emulate what works to save money. Iran, China, Israel, Japan, South Korea... even Russia.
@@gibbsm IAI does not make small arms and tanks. I think you are confusing IAI with IMI (Israeli Military Industries), which is a totally different company. As the video noted, IAI had quite an experience of building aircraft by the 1980s. The video is somewhat incorrect in that the Kfir was not a “copy” of the Mirage. That was actually the Nesher model that preceded it. The Kfir is a much modified design which uses a completely different engine than the French Mirages do.
Looks like an F-16XL with canards.
LAVI is missing F-16's blended wing body design for an extra body lift.
Interesting stuff.
My actual favorite forgotten aircraft is the Lockheed CL-1200 Lancer, the follow on to the great F-104. I'm hoping to see some serious analysis of that one some day ☺.
It was reported that isaeli consultants/designers where engaged to aerodynamic and structural outlines of the J10.
Israelis also sold the design of the radar to the Chinese, the same radar used in the J10, the missle tech, which was sold to China and produce das the PL8 AA missile.
So it IS a Lavi copy, in the sense theres key components were either deisgned by Israelis or straight up licenced Israeli tech.
So the Levi it looks like a F16 based and improved from there?🤔
Its diffrent from the f16, just looks like it. Everything is diffrent
Wow, I had forgotten all about the lavi.
I don't understand why Israel stops the furture developement of the LAVI. Today it could be better than every F 16. From design it is for me the most beautiful fighter jet of all 4th gen fighter. I bet the US stopped it because it was clear on it's way to beat the F 16.
The US had a change of heart, they decided they did not want US state of the art equipment being exported by Israel. I am sure that the US would not have agreed to US funded tech being sold to China
I think, given the time differences and the fact that they are NOT exact copies of the Lavi, that the Chinese simply did their best to copy an, admittedly excellent aircraft that wasn't even in production. So what's the big deal?
Great design for its time, It worked. Why you not want to copy?
The IIAI Lavi, could'a, should'a, would'a.
Some in the US military industrial complex were scared Israel would out shine there products, and probably with good reason.
You point up the marketability of parts of a cancelled project. Yes indeed. We in Canada let one get away like that: the Iroquois engine from the cancelled Avro CF-105 programme. The aircraft was a (glorious) white elephant. But the engine, with development, could have been a moneyspinner...
Actually the Arrow, "Canada's TSR2", would be another good video subject...
Subsequent government spending on the Bomarc and Starfighter programmes exceeded that of the Arrow.
The Lavi nearly bankrupted Israel !! .These days the Lavi is found in the Israeli Air Force Museum , south of Be'er Sheva , along with the Avia S-199 ( ME 109 variant , that like the ME 109 was great in the air , but claimed pilots lives on landing ) and also the P51 D whose propeller and wings were used to cut Egyptian telephone lines during the Suez Crisis of 1956