That’s one really nice thing about my Model 3 RWD LFP. At a supercharger, I barely get sat down and check messages and the thing is ready to go again. That 5 mi/kWh efficiency is amazing!
@@Sophia-vk5bq fortunately, science and physics don’t operate off “feels”. Model 3 and Y have similar efficiencies to the Bolt, so they will have similar performance with level 1 and 2 charging. Even if it doesn’t “feel” that way 😂.
You should be in Alberta Canada. You can count the 350 kw chargers in the whole province on one hand and probably only a couple that work. It’s a real piss off. And they charge by the minute. So no incentive to fix them.
The trucks are incredibly inefficient, that results in the manufacturers putting in huge batteries, and this leads to horrible charging experience. Worrying about lack of really high power chargers seems like missing the point entirely.
Rich Rebuilds just bought a Rivian in New Jersey and tried to dive to South Carolina and was sorely disappointed with the lack of his inability to charge anywhere efficiently. So glad I didn't sell my model 3 performance for a rivian. Love the tesla charging system cuz I never have a problem living in Southern Calif! Oh, one more thing. Kyle, the rich kid asking for money to charge....cracks me up!!!
Kyle, you’re finally come off the (dare I say) suspect praise on every single vehicle review, and are telling it like it is. This honest review is what we need.
Holy cow. Watching this video gave me anxiety. I think it was range anxiety. And I don’t even own a Rivian. I do, however, own several Teslas. I’ve owned a Tesla since 2015. I can honestly say I’ve never had any range issues. Chargers are everywhere. They’re all super chargers. Charging takes me 15 minutes on a road trip sometimes 20. By the time I use the bathroom and grab a coffee, my battery’s ready to go. I don’t understand why anybody would buy any electric vehicle other than a Tesla at this point. The world is not ready for non-Teslas. The infrastructure is not there.
I have more important things to worry about than charging. It's that simple for a lot of folks who don't live in Calif, don't own a house, who tows or can't afford a $70k BEV.
Good conversation. My takeaway from this is that my decision to follow my PHEV with another PHEV is the correct one to avoid the annoyance. If the wait would be "too long," just drive away on gasoline and worry about getting the electrons later.
My 2017 e-Golf, while not great for more than ~300 mile (2 x DCFCs) road trips, is a very good commuting car. Full pack is achieved within 4 hours from ~10% SoC at 240 V, 30 amps.
I charge my EV6 AWD overnight 20-80% on level2 with my adapter set at 20 amps with no problem, 4.5 m/ kWh efficiency, and I like to run it because it’s so amazing to drive.
Chargepoint doesn’t have 350 kw and it cost 50,000 plus for a chargepoint 62.5 most community can’t afford 350 . When the government corridors have at least 150 kw at each site
Agree with Brendon’s comment on slow charging near coast communities along NJ and Delmarva areas only have 50 kW CCS where is Tesla has a few 250KW locations near those same shore areas
CCS is so bad out here in northern CA. Not only is there only 4 chargers at most stops , there’s only 1 or 2 out of the 4 that work! And I don’t see anything changing anytime soon. So feeling you should get the 350 when there’s only 2 out of the 4 working is ridiculous. EA and chargepoint are crap . And no one wants to put up with it.
It's great to see you guys discussing about this. The lobbying of bigger manufacturers has definitely not helped deploying obsolete 50kW way past 2018-2019 when faster DCFC were already required. Now we're getting in the same issue with manufacturers providing "120" "180" kW charging and providing 200A cables limiting the charge significantly with a 400V battery architecture. 300A cables minimum. There is sooo much education to be done towards the property owners or whoever is investing in these projects. What's missing in North American is the Type 2 plug instead of J1772. We could also benefit from the 22kW AC which hits the sweet spot. Not going to comment about Chargepoint... we'll be here for an hour long conversation.
I think at this point, NACS plug will ultimately replace CCS1, and we won’t see Type 2. Many people assume that the rest of the world uses CCS2, when the largest EV market in the world doesn’t use it. China uses GB/T, and is planning on significantly upgrading it to surpass the performance of Type 2/CCS2. The EU settled on CCS2 as their standard when EV market share was around 5% in the region. That same market share is where we are right now in the US, and even lower when considering NA as a whole. US EV market share is still tiny. We are right at the beginning of the S-curve. It’s not too late at all for NACS to be the standard. Ford will likely be the first legacy automaker to use NACS. As Chinese EV makers expand into the US, they will more than likely opt to use NACS instead of CCS. The inlet and connectors are both cheaper than CCS’s, and EV makers like NIO are definitely aware of how unreliable Electrify America and other third-party charging networks that use CCS are. Using NACS, NIO (which has plans for a US factory) can provide their vehicles with instant access to Tesla’s reliable and expansive Supercharger network, and also build their own NIO Power NACS stations for cheaper than CCS stations, which would be open to all EVs.
I'd like to see a mi/min charging speed rating on each EV based on their efficiency at 70 mph. Since it tapers, you could standardize on the SOC range measured to maybe 10-80% and throw it on a mi/min curve to see where and how broad the sweet spot is.⚡
I just got my model Y and played around at local chargers this weekend for the first time. I only have 110V charging at home, but since I work from home that will work most of the time. Came to the exact same conclusions you guys stated. 7KW destination charging is pissing in the wind. Unless you are at your work or home for a super amount of time, these things are useless. 50 kW charging is the very start of anything useful for spot charging needs. You also need to pay attention to where you are on your charging curve, because on the Model Y once up near 70%, it doesn’t matter what charger you pick 350/150/50 as the car is only going to take 53 kW anyway. Also the costs of the supercharging has shot up so high so fast, that it totally ruins most of the economic advantage of an EV. My current plan is to charge at home for normal needs and only top up at a Supercharger if I get low in the pack and then supercharge to about 40%. I can then make it home and top up the other 30% in a day. I will also be using EA which is now 25% cheaper than my local superchargers.
That's some interesting data... I did what you're doing for about a year and then ponied up the $800 to upgrade my home charger. Now it's been another year with the upgraded home charger. I promise you it's worth it.... now I only go to a supercharger when I'm on a road trip and have a huge appreciation for Super chargers. Where are you though that it's taking the economy out of having an EV because I spend $25 max at a supercharger going 10%-90%.... my gas car costs $80 to fill.... at home it costs me $8.80 0-100....
Even with a Kia EV6 RWD which is very efficient, I still get annoyed with how slow most Level 2 AC chargers are out in the public. Most of the ones I come across are 6kW which is really only great for overnight charging or a workplace where you'll be for 8+ hours.
Yeah most are only 6 kW because they're on a 40 amp circuit so they can only output 32 amps continuous. Add the fact most businesses only get 208 V instead of 240 V and you're getting 15% less power compared to a 240 V 32 A charger at most residences. I don't know why ChargePoint is taking so long to introduce commercial AC chargers that can charge at 40 and 48 amps (on 50 and 60 amp circuits, respectively).
I have a LFP model 3 with a 50 mile a day commute. I upgraded my outlet to a 16 amp to boost to a 2 kw charge rate and bought a $35 adapter. I have had no issues.
…. 240v times 16 amps is 3.4kWh. Hell; even at 208v, that’s still 2.9kWh (with the 10% loss factored in on both examples). Where are you getting that 2kW rating from?
@@jacobcarlson4010 bold of u to assume my breakers voltage lol. I am on a 120v 20 am breaker which the wires had already been wired for so I just needed the adapter and to change the outlet myself. I’m just a dumb 22 year old and I was able to do it all myself so for people with a similar commute to mine, it’s worth considering. Plus I believe charging at the lower voltage is more energy efficient, correct me if I am wrong.
Seems to be a consensus Ryan Shaw, Rich Rebuilds also found inoperable and slow chargers. This alone is why we should adopt the tesla standard. Europe made tesla change to ccs so America should make the rest change to tesla and it shouldn't be hard existing cars could use adaptors or be retrofitted
Except that no one seems to acknowledge that all Superchargers have very short cables that need better reach to be compatible with all vehicle ports if they are converted.
@@KyleBrightman eventually can be upgraded but my vision would be to use the existing gas station infrastructure to place these chargers at and eventually they will become fast charging convenience stores with a single gas pump for classic cars
The best use of an EV today is a city car that's tethered to home charging, and owning a second car (ICE or hybrid) for longer trips. Until EV charging times are practical (comparable to filling a gas tank) mass adoption will not occur. I don't expect this to be a reality until near the end of this decade. Yes...there will be early adopters, willing to put up with the inconveniences, much the same as early adopters of ICE vehicles, and they are needed. BUT, history has shown it takes time for new tech to mature enough for the masses to embrace it. PCs and the Internet are good examples. I see no difference with EVs.
Not for me. We took a 3k mile road trip a few months ago in our LR RWD Model 3. According to the Tesla app the car drove itself 94% of the time. We even slept in the car for two nights. The idea of taking a gas car on a long trip makes me not even want to go. Out of curiosity I used ABetterRoutePlanner to see if we could have made the trip in a CCS EV. Nope. Tesla SuC is the reason we purchased the Tesla. Once they open the SuC network to CCS it's a game changer.
@@epcalderhead Spoken like a true early adopter. 🙂 Teslas are head and shoulders better than any other EV offering, but not enough to spur mass EV adoption. Even if they could, Tesla cannot produce enough vehicles to support mass adoption, even if they hit their 20 million goal by 2030. A lot has to improve before the world decides to go EV exclusively.
@@davidwill1320 I think that long-term, other manufacturers will adopt NACS (Tesla) connector. Tesla’s V4 supercharger stalls being able to output 1 MW will be able to charge 2 EVs at once at very high peak charging rates, i.e. 400 kW each. From their, it’ll be up to manufacturers to get the best battery packs that have more resilient chemistries for higher charge cycles and less steep charging curves. Model 3 is already able to gain 75 miles of range in 5 minutes on V3 superchargers. It’ll be interesting to see how much faster this will be on V4, as well as with newer battery packs. Doubling current performance to 150 miles of range in 5 minutes would be super promising!
I don’t think its ever going to be just like filling your gas tank, but road tripping an EV is completely practical now. Maybe not everywhere. However, the infrastructure is getting better, and with cars like Model 3 and Ioniq5, charging times and range gained times are extremely good. It’s just a slightly different way to road trip versus ICE.
I think the best solution for these big battery EVs is 800-volt architecture. If it works for the 77.4 kWh E-GMP cars (EV6, Ioniq 5), then it'll be great for larger battery EV SUVs and trucks. You only need 300 amps to get 225 kW at 750 V. To get that speed at 450 V you need the maximum current CCS1 can provide which is 500 A. Note that this would only solve DC fast charging speed issues, AC charging wouldn't become faster.
Living outside of California sounds like it is like living on another planet. Most of our DC fast chargers are at least 150kw if not 350kw. It only takes me about 45 minutes to charge my Lightning Extended range up to 80%.
This problem is what you, Kyle, have talked about for a long time. The most asked question I get is "how long does it take to charge?" "How many 'miles' do you get in 30 mins? I bought the R1T for carrying things in the back so, any more efficient car would not work for my use case.
My i3 maxes out at 50kw DC so 65kw is fine for me, it’s also a 33kw pack so it’s still fast at that rate. We could drive smaller more efficient cars and it would be less of a problem.
The sad part is that they even know and admit that the size and inefficiency of their trucks is the problem, and they’re literally blaming the charging infrastructure for their experience.
I would love a Rivian, but I definitely appreciate how efficient my Niro EV is. Pretty slow DCfast charging unfortunately, but I almost never fast charge it because at home is fine. I have 40 amp level 2 now, but just used a wall outlet level 1 for 1 year/20k miles.
As far as I can tell, the new EA BTC power inverter stations only split at 250A increments so you get either 250 or 500. Don't think I've seen anybody maxing out an installation to see how the total site limits come into play, but sounds like a job for Kyle and friends! Also means that EA's claim of "minimum 150kW" for the shared power stations is likely only true for 600V+ vehicles.
So far we haven't run into any charging issues in our R1T. The only slow speed we have run into was a 62.5kW charger in Durango, CO. I just dropped the family off at the rental house and charged for 45 minutes and we were set for the whole weekend. I did trickle charge 120v at the rental house which gave me 1.4mi/hr, an extra 30 miles over the weekend. I could see problems in rural areas with those slower Chargepoints though. More chargers!!!
I have a road trip for 890 KM with mostly 50KW chargers not a good experience (Kamloops, BC highway 5 / 16 to Edson Alberta), kinda like Bjorn Nyland going to the Arctic Circle but least his route only the last few hundred KM's are at 50KW access. I do have to qualify it 1 -100KW charger has just been enabled on that rout, that actually makes a big difference!
And with NEVI they are just focusing on more corridor charging, not anything off corridor, so it’s unlikely to get much better in the near future if you leave major highways.
Yes, maximum instantaneous miles of range added per hour of charging is a poor measure for comparing vehicles. But for someone who regularly drives long distances the ability to add miles of range quickly is critical. A measure of miles added per hour of charging based on charging over a specific percentage of battery capacity (such as 10-80%) and EPA certified range is helpful for comparison between vehicles. As you discussed, knowing what chargers are available in your area and their reliability are also important considerations in the purchasing decision.
+1 for a Chargepoint episode. Everyone needs to know what to know about them. Their business model just prints money and they’re typically reliable but they fall short for users in many ways. I’d love to hear more about how they managed such wide market penetration and how they’re adapting to NEVI power requirements.
According to Chargepoint's SEC filings they actually burn cash alot faster than they can stack it. Don't expect any good user experience from a company with such terrible economics.
As a driver, you are USUALLY not a ChargePoint customer as they are just an intermediary except for publically funded sites. You rarely see their most powerful units (available for years now) because their customers (businesses) are not buying them.
The amount of mental energy needed for EV ownership is staggering. You guys could solve world peace with the amount of mental energy you’re investing in solving range anxiety.
Actually, it’s not much more than when I drove an ICE vehicle. I had to first look at where gas was cheapest, how long it had been at that price, how long the surrounding stations had been at their reported prices; that would just give me a basic idea of how much I’d have to pay to top up if needed, and how likely it was to change (and change, it would; almost invariably). Then I had to look at what all needed to be done in that general vicinity; whether running recyclables, getting animal feed, buying groceries that were on sale, or whatever the case may be. If there wasn’t enough to do in that area, then the trip simply wasn’t worth the gas it’s take; so a no-go. But far more common were the times that I’d get the plan laid out and start running the errands, only for gas prices to jump by 0.20/gal, meaning I could no longer afford as much gas. After all, when a grocery run is 2.35 gallons of gas, in the absolute best case scenario, 0.20/gallon can literally mean the difference between buying 2 gallons of milk, or having to get by with 1.
Efficiency kind of matters and I've never felt this way before" C'mon, Kyle. The writing was on the wall that people switching to truck for the hell of it was an extremely bad trend in the EV world. How did you not understand that? The much bigger problem is how much less sustainable EV pickups are. You drove the XL1, and before that you understood its ethos. Face it. You've let your guard down, as have many in the EV world, feeling like we can have it all and no compromises, because it's electric. Same problem with the Plaid. The EV community needs to check its privilege using up all the battery resources of the world. Time for Out of Spec to take an e-bike journey with the solar challenge guys to renew your commitment to the Climate.
Driving a mod y in Australia i find one of my biggest limitations is that we can only get 11 kw on a ac charge. We could get away with a 22kw ac onboard charger since we have very sparse fast chargers in most areas in Australia but its not unusual for a 32 amp 3 phase socket to be lying around thats 415v and most houses have the ability to upgrade to 3 phase power. Almost all businesses have 3 phase power available.
Always thought that a work parking lot, hotel, apartments, shopping mall would benefit from a row (lets say 8) DC fast charge plugs powered by a central (lets say 100 kw) power connection. As spots empty or fill up, the bank would route power to the various plugs. If you need fast charging, you go to a dedicated plug, but if your looking for a top off, or not in a hurry to leave, this approach would be an economical way to charge a large number of EV's.
I've recently had a long discussion with an American why Pickups and gigantic SUV's will never be good EVs. They didn't understand it. Électrification will ultimately mean, cars need to be somewhat reasonable. On the long run, around 100kWh of battery and 2.5mi/kWh @70mph will be roughly the upper limit of what can be considered reasonable.
Just an observation (as an R1T owner myself): Moving from ICE to EV, I knew full well what the charging challenges were - and that sufficient infrastructure could potentially be years away. That said, I also knew that this was going to be my daily driver - not a road-tripper or camper tower. While I sincerely appreciate the information (and technical explanations), I think a bit of perspective is in order. Just for clarity, it would also be important to mention that 1.8 kWh efficiency is on the low end. Here in (flat) Texas, I can use the Conserve mode and reasonably expect 2.34 kWh traveling at normal highway speeds. As a daily commuter, I plug in when I get home - every other day - just to top off to 70%. At 70%, in All Purpose mode (using all 4 motors), I have 218 miles of range. Is that not a reasonable amount for a single day? Just my thoughts. LOVE your channel and all the informative content. Thank you.
Good review of the state of charging on road trips. I assume the cost of installation of a charging station is not inexpensive. It would be nice if Kyle can look into this and report on such. Charging stations are a big impediment to EV adaptability. Battery technology improvements are also needed. Right now it just doesn’t make sense to buy a total EV for larger vehicles. Not everyone can only use a sedan nor want to drive a small car. Larger cars/vehicles offer greater protection is serious accidents. Also, ride comfort becomes a bigger issue as one gets older (at least for me).
EA seems always broken, chargepoint is more reliable but chargepoint has that monster "elephant trunk" cable and the ridiculous swing-head that always wants to pull the cable (and you) back to the tower. Yuck!
It would be amazing to have 80 amp level 2 being the standard. It's also shameful that Toyota puts super slow level 2 chargers in their Prime cars by default; you want the hybrids to plug in, but it sucks that they get 40 miles in like 3 hours
Also MPH is a horrible metric always. Mile per minute might be kind of useful. But you see people saying they are charging at 1000 mph, but it only last 3 minutes, so it gives people a false sense of speed and range.
@@SDot-dp9xm so when you can say 1000 mph but after an hour you only have 320 miles of charge and you still think that’s a good method? I guess is could be OK for Level 2 charge since it doesn’t change through out the charge, but then people compare and say why does my Rivian get so many less MPH vs my Model 3. The charger is broken.
@Eric Roe your statement is flawed. You wouldn't charge at 1000mph for one hour and only have 320 miles of range...ie why i suggested avg...get it? That means in the charging session you attempted to describe you may have started at 1000mph and then quickly tappered off to a much lower level to get 320miles of range
The problem with the Rivian is that it is too inefficient. It is still an experimental vehicle. The only current viable solution to the problem is either making it a hybrid or introduce battery swap. The idea of expecting high powered chargers all over the place is fantasy right now. It is not practical to do so.
But doesn't fast charging or putting more amps into a battery to make it fast charge faster degrades and heats up the battery quicker vs slow charging and the battery will last longer. But I have read that they are trying to charge batteries as quickly as refilling a gas tank which is 5 to 8 minutes
This is the gas truck cost anxiety transposed to EV trucks. It is the double whammy that all of us truck people have been warning and complaining about. It takes too long to recharge and does not go far enough between chargers towing. That is why all of us truck people are saying 500 mile range minimum to make up for use losses at highway speeds towing or traveling. Being able to run all day working on one charge. Also We need a range extended Electric truck. 80 KW battery with an onboard petrol engine generator. Stay out of the range extender as much as possible until absolutely needed.
This all highlights just how much of a mistake it was to develop CCS1. The whole industry should have went to type 2 right then and there for AC and CCS2 for DC. Some EVs can do as much as 48kW on three phase type 2 and I’ve got to believe the EVSE for that application is cheaper than a 50kW DC charger. The EV trucks you have now could have had that level of AC charging but because the industry failed to look to the future and switch to type 2, we’re stuck with underpowered type 1 and NACS.
NACS is more powerful and capable than both CCS1 and CCS2. It’s in the documentation. I think at this point, NACS plug will ultimately replace CCS1, and we won’t see Type 2. Many people assume that the rest of the world uses CCS2, when the largest EV market in the world doesn’t use it. China uses GB/T, and is planning on significantly upgrading it to surpass the performance of Type 2/CCS2. The EU settled on CCS2 as their standard when EV market share was around 5% in the region. That same market share is where we are right now in the US, and even lower when considering NA as a whole. US EV market share is still tiny. We are right at the beginning of the S-curve. It’s not too late at all for NACS to be the standard. Ford will likely be the first legacy automaker to use NACS. As Chinese EV makers expand into the US, they will more than likely opt to use NACS instead of CCS. The inlet and connectors are both cheaper than CCS’s, and EV makers like NIO are definitely aware of how unreliable Electrify America and other third-party charging networks that use CCS are. Using NACS, NIO (which has plans for a US factory) can provide their vehicles with instant access to Tesla’s reliable and expansive Supercharger network, and also build their own NIO Power NACS stations for cheaper than CCS stations, which would be open to all EVs.
This is what separates Tesla and Lucid from everyone else. Teslas and Lucid are incredibly efficient. If I really wanted to, I could do much more than the 330 quoted range of my MY. Keep speeds at like 50mpg and that car averages kWh/mile in the 100’s range. It’s insane.
Slow chargers shouldn't be removed, as they should be there for emergencies. But slow chargers are only good for overnight charging like at work, a camp site, hotel stay, at home, or as mentioned, emergencies in the middle of the mountains where some small museum has a couple J1772 chargers. I drive a '23 Bolt, I'm honestly fine with the super slow 55kW charging, even on road trips, doesn't hurt me too much. Even at home, I charge at 120v 12a, sometimes even just 8a. Trickle charging is my go to over night. Very few times have I needed faster charging, if I come home on a dead battery and need to leave in the morning and no time to fast charge.
Sounds like for these vehicles need 2 ac charge ports for slow charging at locations. Our Y we have only had to charge outside the house a handful of times.
Hmmm, it’s clear now that I definitely need to wait for the cyber truck and take advantage of Tesla’s charging infrastructure. It’s not enough to have a cool adventurous truck when you can barely charge it.
How many people on here are the type that drive their EV all the way to almost zero percent then pull over and charge all the way up to 80 to 100 percent? How many people on here are the type that stop at a charger more often and charge a little bit as you go? I do the second…I pull over and go to the bathroom and get something to drink and supercharge as much as I can in that 10 to 15 minutes….
And this is why most trucks get sold to west coast and places with charging infrastructure. For road trips across country you need to be in vacation mode and maybe take advantage of plug in camping
I don't see 3θ happening in NA for the same reasons I don't see NACS happening, it's too much change for too little benefit. I think 277VAC charging would be really cool to see in cars but as you guys already noted tesla stopped supporting that in modern vehicles, maybe we'll see it show up again? Tbh I sort of expect low power DC to fill that market and AC will probably sit at 240VAC max since that is residential voltage and DC can otherwise fill the need, granted at higher cost than something like 80A@277VAC
Went to Virginia last week (I have a M3) where we were there were a lot of 150kw so we used them and they are so slow!. The 250kwh are really the only ones to use on a trip but a lot of times they arent available when needed. The infrastructure needs a ton of work! I cant imagine a truck and only having 62kw charger , forget that. It would be nice for the hotels/motels to have chargers. if that was available the car would have been more like having a gas car. that means add maybe 5-10 slow chargers per hotel and upping that number as EVs become more in use. However what y'all are talking about doesnt make sense no way 3rd party chargers at this point are even usable just wait for CT if you want a truck.
Lightning 150 also very slow. No range. Tesla is so far ahead with its charging network. Most people only see the car. They need to look at charging network, speed of charging and range. Tesla is number one and I am thinking that the cyber truck will be a game changer.
I'm all for EVs. In fact, I'm still waiting on my Rivian R1T. I have MaxPack and I want a power Tonneau, so I'm waiting a bit. Why the MaxPack? It's not because I'm afraid of range, but rather I'm looking at places I would go (even once a year) that would be extremely hard or impossible to reach just due to charging issues. And if a single charger is down, may leave you stranded. This isn't range anxiety, but just weary of the lack of chargers. Go ahead and open up something like ABetterRoutePlanner and try to plan a trip from eastern Massachusetts to Pittsburgh, NH. This is a LARGE town on the border of Canada and one of the best snowmobiling areas in New England. Even if you are not dragging a trailer and renting sleds up there, see if you can find a way to get there and back home. To get there, you have to go into Vermont to find a charger which is WAY out of the way. and even if you top off to 100% there, what you have left to start home isn't enough to get back to a charger (and of course, this is something I have not seen ANY planner mention) Now, imagine arriving in northern Vermont and the charger is down. We are talking snowmobiling, so it's winter in New England. You are not getting the range that planner just told you. If you are stuck, you are REALLY stuck. Look around the White Mountains of New Hampshire. Imagine planning a couple hikes on a week vacation. I can easily find places I've gone that you would kill time having to return to Conway or Lincoln for a 50kw charger. For an "Adventure" vehicle, it's pretty easy to find adventures that are very common where you won't make it. A popular 4x4 trip here in New England is to go find "The Trains in Maine" which are 2 abandoned steam locomotives in the Maine wilderness. ICE 4x4s go on this trip every year. It is not a hard off-road trip and you don't need anything fancy to make it. There is NO WAY you'd make it in a Rivian. Plan a trip from Boston to Sugarloaf for skiing. This one can be done, but you can't do it for a weekend getaway because all you have is AC chargers to begin the trip home. (unless you drive a Tesla or can use a Tesla charger) You don't even need to find remote areas of the Southwest, it's possible to find popular areas not that far from major eastern cities where most EVs simply are a royal PIA or impossible to reach.
Kyle, your voice sounds exactly like Dr. Demento from old school radio. It's kinda eerie how much you sound like him! Anyone ever tell you that before? Do you know who he is? He was awesome.
I firmly believe, charging by the minute, should be absolutely illegal. No competitive incentive to have faster charging stations. At that point the only incentive is to keep the pumps working long enough for you to stay at their site.
Making the general public subside $$$ charging stations should be illegal. Actually the bill will be going to the next generation already doomed by 31 trillion in debt. Ruin the future of our children.
@@stevemurray710 I feel like you are missing the broader picture here. EV charging stations only account .00079% of the federal budget. The federal budget is 6.7 trillion and the EV incentives are only 5 billion. Yes, 5 billion lot of money but the average person dramatically underestimates. How big the federal budget is every year. If you’re talking about not bankrupt in your children’s future, you should be talking about transparent budgets for the US government not a small drop in the bucket here.
@@BlueSnowOfficial I'm for small government and free market all the way. If a company or investors thinks they can make a profit my making an electric car or a charging stations then go for it. If it won't fly on merit alone then wait until it makes sense. In the 100 years of the ice I don't think the government gave anybody a special break to build a gas station. Gas stations make money. Starbucks makes money. JC Penney used to make money. Charging stations? Money pit. Losses.
No one needs a huge Hummer. If you are buying a Rivian or other huge truck that is only ever going to be a driveway queen, and not actually used regularly for what a pickup truck is for, then it is your own fault for buying something that has such a huge battery that gets such crappy miles per kilowatt. If home charging on 220 volts with highest amps doesn't meet the needs of the average daily driving then there is no reason that an EV with such a big battery getting that crappy if kilowatts per mile to exist. Why because you are then trying to force public chargers to install charging stations that are way more expensive so in the end we end up with fewer chargers at each location. With those fewer super high power chargers those Rivians and other huge battery low miles per kilowatt EVs are hogging up those chargers because they have to sit there for an hour or two. I much rather have way more 150 kilowatt chargers and way more 50 kilowatt chargers.
Love it. So when you hit the 1.8/1.6 miles per KwH you are now contributing more co2 to the environment than a truck that can get 25 mpg. Probably about the same as a diesel Gladiator that is rated at 28 mpg. I drive very conservatively in an area where it tops out at 55 mpg. Bet I can break 30 mpg. Excellent! I was going Lightning for my next vehicle but the Jeep is more environmentally friendly. Jeep it is. Even better I'll buy used so I'm not carbon responsible for the build. But wait, there's more. No need to create more carbon building more EV stations in my rural area. Refuel in 5 min so more time fishing.
You would have to go through to 1.04 mi/kWh to be close to 30mpg and you could still offset most of the carbon with at home solar charging. If I had a 7kWh system at my house I could produce over 8,000 kWh/yr and if I drove 5000 mi per year it would be ~2,500 kWh/yr ($250 if paying our normal $0.10/kWh). So in effect I could drive completely carbon neutral once all the manufacturing is taking into account, after ~3 years or so. I’m also in the PNW which gets about 70% of its power from renewable sources (mostly hydro).
@@greentransmission maybe. We also didn't calculate transmission losses from power stations. Could be as much as 4%. Lots of variables. All co2 calculations need a few grains of salt. In any case it is like peeing in the Mississippi to help with the seasonal draught. Don't get me wrong I love the tech. I'd buy a Sono Sion in a heartbeat. Perfect beach house car. Probably never need a charge because of the little usage. But it wouldn't serve the environment. Just as the Hummer EV doesn't. I would need to drive at least 60k miles in my current vehicle before that would exceed the estimated production co2 of a new EV. I'd love to see the co2 footprint if every registered private vehicle was a Hummer EV, included build, infrastructure and road repair, vs if every one was the F150.
@@doclees11 good points, and I agree with you - I don’t think everyone could (or should) drive a Hummer EV, but if we get to a point where more people are driving electric vehicles with V2G capabilities and solar on their roofs (etc) I think we would all be better off. We also need better public transportation and better designed communities that rely less on personal vehicles for day to day activities.
@@greentransmission I don't feel comfortable believing we will all be better off with these changes. Just check with the poor in the DRC or the indigenous people of Chile. Keep in mind the reason we went from horses to ICE carriages was due to the health risks of horse pollution. Horse crap/pee/carcasses. No one likes public transportation. Now if you can Uber an autonomous car for the cost of a bus pass then sure, that would work. Yeah I have no doubt if all the avaliable private family homes had enough solar, about 15kw $30k system, for the 2.5 person home we would be better off. But not for the first 3 yrs. Takes that long to cancel out the manufacturing co2. My 12kw system takes care of all(2 adults) our needs. Great stuff. Now you may need trees cut, 3 for us, and if your roof is questionable better do it now. Don't want to pay for all those panels to be removed and reinstalled. Oh wait, there's more. 25-30 yrs they need recycled. Currently they don't recycle well. Toxic metals that leach into landfills. Just no free lunch.
I think it’ll eventually get better but I think this is something that’s going to really break the approach that Ford and GM are taking with their suv EVs. If Tesla opens up superchargers then great but efficiency is everything for EVs right now.
Either way, the batteries would have to charge. So when the battery swap station goes through all of its swaps of sufficiently charged batteries, then it’s back to crappy third-party chargers. Tesla’s supercharger network is the gold standard. I’ve also heard good things about NIO’s chargers. BEVs will have to increase charging speeds with each generation.
Branden, you really hit the nail on the head with the 277V charging. I really think SAE should make a new revision of J1772 that includes support for 277V. That would allow AC charging to be added to a lot of places, such as on light poles which are typically 277V. Imagine if we could somehow have a 277V charger on every light pole in parking lots or on city streets.
2:40 what? Miles per hour is literally the only metric that accounts for efficiency. It’s literally the BEST comparison method. Absolute nonsense to say otherwise.
Both of these guys have videos on the NACS and it has nothing to do with charging speed and only has to do with the physical plug convenience. Existing stations with CCS could add a NACS but the charging power (kW) available at that location is the exact same.
No it is not. You and everyone else are confusing the issues CCS charging station providers are having with equipment as being related to the CCS standard. The CCS standard isn't the root cause of most issues, it is the poor quality first generation charging infrastructure. Tesla has been custom building their Superchargers from the ground up while CCS charging stations are only recently transitioning to custom built architecture. Most pre-2020 CCS charging stations used off the shelf components from power conversion transformers.
@@Scott-sm9nm I think it’s deeper than that. Third-party charging networks, especially Electrify America, never really had the incentive to make sure that their chargers are reliable, as strategically placed, and also high-powered in sufficient numbers. Tesla, on the other hand, had their priorities straight, as they would have gone bankrupt had their customers been dissatisfied with their experience at superchargers. Had they been dissatisfied enough times, customers would have traded in their Teslas and gone back to driving ICE vehicles in droves. If this happened to a legacy automaker like GM (which it definitely has quite a bit with the Bolt) between 2016 up until now, it didn’t matter to GM since they make their money from ICE vehicles, and loses money on EVs. If EVGo or even a new EV charging company starts building NACS stations based off of the specifications in the document that Tesla provided, I think you’d end up with more reliable, high-powered charging stations over time. Heck, I bet GM is going to start building charging stations eventually under their new GM Energy division. GM absolutely loves government money, and I don’t believe that they’re just going to miss out on the funds that are available for EV charging stations. If GM builds NACS chargers, they can do it at a lower cost than building CCS1 chargers, thereby building more chargers with less money. It’s a no brainer!
@@ArtiePenguin1 I said nothing about charging station providers. Don’t put words in my mouth. The solution is to allow all cars to use the one charging station provider that can maintain functional chargers, and that’s Tesla. The only way that will happen is if vehicle manufacturers embrace NACS.
I wonder when people start to recognize the difference in efficiency between those playthings from Ford and Rivian and a Tesla Semi. The Tesla Semi took 920kWh for 500 miles or about 1,84 kWh/mile. That would mean its efficiency is 18.3 MPGE. Lets say the whole shebang was rigged by Tesla and only a big bunch of Marketing hype and Ads for Edmunds & Co and it really takes 1 MWh for 500 miles or 2 kwh/mile or 16.85 MPGE. Thats fully loaded to the brim! Ok lets say it was a even bigger marketing sca, than Nikola and the truck weighs 5000 pounds more than a regular truck. That would mean it transports around 40.0000 pounds of products for 16.85 MPGE. Thats about the amount of energy a Chevrolet Silverado 2023 needs EMPTY!
@@jamesengland7461 The official MPGE are 70 for the Rivian and 68 for the Ford. The semi has somewhere around 60 MPGE. Fully loaded. With how much tons? I guess about 25. One Rivian has 1 ton? Not really, but lets pretend. 25 Rivians have the same efficiency as ONE Semi. That means Rivian has 70/25 = 2,8 MPGE. Interesting... A Model Y has half ton load and 125 MPGE or 2,5 MPGES - Miles per gallon equivalent for Semi. Or maybe its 2.5 MPGET - Miles per gallon equivalent per ton transported? Of course a empty or nearly empty Semi has a very bad MPGE compared to a Nissan Leaf or VW ID4...
@@wolfgangpreier9160 You're making stuff up now. You already said the semi has 16.85 mpge, and the pickups 68-70. That's the whole answer. Otherwise, it's a pointless comparison. A diesel semi gets 5-7mpg, while most cars get under 30, so there's a ratio of about 4 to 1 between semis and cars, no matter what. That doesn't make cars useless or inefficient.
@@jamesengland7461 The Semi has a consumption of 1.7 kWh/mile, i have to look that strange conversion up its MPGe = mi/kWh × 33.705 I can more easily work with metric values. Thats 1,056 kWh/km for about 25 tons of load. Or about 42,25 Wh/km/ton. Maybe its a few tons more maybe less, it does not really matter. My Model Y uses 176 Wh/km for 0,5 tons of load. Thats 352 wh/km/ton A F150 uses about 496 Wh/mile or 308 Wh/km or with a max payload capacity of 2000 pounds or 907 kg thats 339 Wh/km/ton Based on the payload the Semi is about 8 times more efficient than a pickup or 8,3 times more efficient than a Model Y.
Here the issue, how many cars can take more than 50kw? If only 2% of cars in America are electric, what % are able to get the 100kw you are talking about? Average person who gets an EV is using it for daily driving and it's a second car in the household, or the main car and they don't travel much.
So it turns out big heavy trucks are inefficient no matter their power source. Businesses needing trucks for local work that got Lightning Pros at $41k are going to save a ton of money on fuel costs. And people who only use their trucks as local pavement princesses will enjoy going electric. But when they encounter the reality of aerodynamics at interstate speeds and slow and unreliable CCS charging, they’re not going to be happy with the length of time spent at charging stops. And most buyers aren’t prepared for the range losses at interstate speeds, range loss with heater use, plus range loss while towing. Not everyone is going to haul their boat up a mountain in sub-freezing temps, but truck buyers do expect their trucks to be able to do it all. The solution for the near future would seem to be plug-in hybrid trucks with a large enough battery to make local trips electric, but provide gas-powered range and towing.
PLEASE stop bagging on ID.4 owners. Most are as clueless as all other EV owners, but there’s just as many of us, percentage-wise, that get it. We (my wife and I) make every effort to use 150 chargers at EA leaving CHAdeMO and 350’s for those that need/can use them. We see the Bolt drivers pull up to the 350’s and roll our eyes like every one else, and we charge enough to comfortably get to the next charger. From our ID.4 owner eyes we see a similar percentage clueless drivers from every vehicle make, regardless of free charging. Ionic owners are to only ones we’ve been delayed by for not getting back to their car and moving it after 100%, but I know that was just chance. We have a about 40,000 miles road tripping the ID.4 so we have limited experience. If we only have 350’s available when we arrive we obviously use them, but we always offer to move to a 150 if one becomes available and any of the faster charging vehicles are there. The only way that might change is if we get grief from other vehicle owners about being an ID.4 owner. My wife will continue to do the right thing, but I would definitely get stubborn and the Rivian driver can wait on the 150. I mention all this because the last two of your videos I watched you bagged on ID.4 owners with the “why are they all so stupid” type comment. You have influence over how they might act in the future so please be nicer about how you try to educate them or some of the good ones might be less helpful next time you need a 350. We all know it’s going to get worse before it (hopefully) gets better so reenforcing good etiquette is your only hope. Safe travels and thank you for the good information you get out.
The problem is VW includes free charging, that alone creates a bunch of offenders. If you’re in the know, do what you can to get VW to stop giving unlimited charging and spread the word amongst ID4 owners that have no clue. A lot of the offenders are locals that are just being cheap, they could charge at home but clog up the stations trying to save a couple bucks.
That’s one really nice thing about my Model 3 RWD LFP. At a supercharger, I barely get sat down and check messages and the thing is ready to go again. That 5 mi/kWh efficiency is amazing!
" 1000miles/hr " - If you have never owned a Model 3 you will never know how it feels to charge that fast!
So true efficiency is key
@@ChaimLoecher - Appreciate your videos! Now I know to ask many questions before cardiologists propose to do PCI on SVG’s for a family member.
The high efficiency is not tributable to LFP.
@@StevenHoagland no one said that lol
finally, it clicked - shuving a huge battery into it doesnt make the EV better
Doing the math before writing the check is generally a good thing.
1000 miles/hr - If you have never owned a Model 3 (or now Lucid) you will never know how it feels to charge that fast!
I mean when you have a fast charger nearby it's good but I feel like level 1 charging at home is even worse on a Tesla than it is on a Bolt.
@@Sophia-vk5bq fortunately, science and physics don’t operate off “feels”. Model 3 and Y have similar efficiencies to the Bolt, so they will have similar performance with level 1 and 2 charging. Even if it doesn’t “feel” that way 😂.
You should be in Alberta Canada. You can count the 350 kw chargers in the whole province on one hand and probably only a couple that work. It’s a real piss off. And they charge by the minute. So no incentive to fix them.
The trucks are incredibly inefficient, that results in the manufacturers putting in huge batteries, and this leads to horrible charging experience. Worrying about lack of really high power chargers seems like missing the point entirely.
Rich Rebuilds just bought a Rivian in New Jersey and tried to dive to South Carolina and was sorely disappointed with the lack of his inability to charge anywhere efficiently.
So glad I didn't sell my model 3 performance for a rivian. Love the tesla charging system cuz I never have a problem living in Southern Calif!
Oh, one more thing. Kyle, the rich kid asking for money to charge....cracks me up!!!
Kyle, you’re finally come off the (dare I say) suspect praise on every single vehicle review, and are telling it like it is. This honest review is what we need.
Discovered negative videos get the clicks.
Holy cow. Watching this video gave me anxiety. I think it was range anxiety. And I don’t even own a Rivian. I do, however, own several Teslas. I’ve owned a Tesla since 2015. I can honestly say I’ve never had any range issues. Chargers are everywhere. They’re all super chargers. Charging takes me 15 minutes on a road trip sometimes 20. By the time I use the bathroom and grab a coffee, my battery’s ready to go. I don’t understand why anybody would buy any electric vehicle other than a Tesla at this point. The world is not ready for non-Teslas. The infrastructure is not there.
I have more important things to worry about than charging. It's that simple for a lot of folks who don't live in Calif, don't own a house, who tows or can't afford a $70k BEV.
Good conversation.
My takeaway from this is that my decision to follow my PHEV with another PHEV is the correct one to avoid the annoyance.
If the wait would be "too long," just drive away on gasoline and worry about getting the electrons later.
My 2017 e-Golf, while not great for more than ~300 mile (2 x DCFCs) road trips, is a very good commuting car. Full pack is achieved within 4 hours from ~10% SoC at 240 V, 30 amps.
I charge my EV6 AWD overnight 20-80% on level2 with my adapter set at 20 amps with no problem, 4.5 m/ kWh efficiency, and I like to run it because it’s so amazing to drive.
Why are any of these companies that offer 350kw units installing anything but those at new locations? Its crazy.
Cost
Chargepoint doesn’t have 350 kw and it cost 50,000 plus for a chargepoint 62.5 most community can’t afford 350 . When the government corridors have at least 150 kw at each site
Agree with Brendon’s comment on slow charging near coast communities along NJ and Delmarva areas only have 50 kW CCS where is Tesla has a few 250KW locations near those same shore areas
CCS is so bad out here in northern CA. Not only is there only 4 chargers at most stops , there’s only 1 or 2 out of the 4 that work! And I don’t see anything changing anytime soon. So feeling you should get the 350 when there’s only 2 out of the 4 working is ridiculous. EA and chargepoint are crap . And no one wants to put up with it.
It's great to see you guys discussing about this. The lobbying of bigger manufacturers has definitely not helped deploying obsolete 50kW way past 2018-2019 when faster DCFC were already required. Now we're getting in the same issue with manufacturers providing "120" "180" kW charging and providing 200A cables limiting the charge significantly with a 400V battery architecture. 300A cables minimum. There is sooo much education to be done towards the property owners or whoever is investing in these projects. What's missing in North American is the Type 2 plug instead of J1772. We could also benefit from the 22kW AC which hits the sweet spot.
Not going to comment about Chargepoint... we'll be here for an hour long conversation.
I think at this point, NACS plug will ultimately replace CCS1, and we won’t see Type 2. Many people assume that the rest of the world uses CCS2, when the largest EV market in the world doesn’t use it. China uses GB/T, and is planning on significantly upgrading it to surpass the performance of Type 2/CCS2.
The EU settled on CCS2 as their standard when EV market share was around 5% in the region. That same market share is where we are right now in the US, and even lower when considering NA as a whole. US EV market share is still tiny. We are right at the beginning of the S-curve. It’s not too late at all for NACS to be the standard. Ford will likely be the first legacy automaker to use NACS.
As Chinese EV makers expand into the US, they will more than likely opt to use NACS instead of CCS. The inlet and connectors are both cheaper than CCS’s, and EV makers like NIO are definitely aware of how unreliable Electrify America and other third-party charging networks that use CCS are. Using NACS, NIO (which has plans for a US factory) can provide their vehicles with instant access to Tesla’s reliable and expansive Supercharger network, and also build their own NIO Power NACS stations for cheaper than CCS stations, which would be open to all EVs.
I'd like to see a mi/min charging speed rating on each EV based on their efficiency at 70 mph. Since it tapers, you could standardize on the SOC range measured to maybe 10-80% and throw it on a mi/min curve to see where and how broad the sweet spot is.⚡
I just got my model Y and played around at local chargers this weekend for the first time. I only have 110V charging at home, but since I work from home that will work most of the time. Came to the exact same conclusions you guys stated. 7KW destination charging is pissing in the wind. Unless you are at your work or home for a super amount of time, these things are useless. 50 kW charging is the very start of anything useful for spot charging needs. You also need to pay attention to where you are on your charging curve, because on the Model Y once up near 70%, it doesn’t matter what charger you pick 350/150/50 as the car is only going to take 53 kW anyway. Also the costs of the supercharging has shot up so high so fast, that it totally ruins most of the economic advantage of an EV. My current plan is to charge at home for normal needs and only top up at a Supercharger if I get low in the pack and then supercharge to about 40%. I can then make it home and top up the other 30% in a day. I will also be using EA which is now 25% cheaper than my local superchargers.
That's some interesting data... I did what you're doing for about a year and then ponied up the $800 to upgrade my home charger. Now it's been another year with the upgraded home charger. I promise you it's worth it.... now I only go to a supercharger when I'm on a road trip and have a huge appreciation for Super chargers. Where are you though that it's taking the economy out of having an EV because I spend $25 max at a supercharger going 10%-90%.... my gas car costs $80 to fill.... at home it costs me $8.80 0-100....
Even with a Kia EV6 RWD which is very efficient, I still get annoyed with how slow most Level 2 AC chargers are out in the public. Most of the ones I come across are 6kW which is really only great for overnight charging or a workplace where you'll be for 8+ hours.
Yeah most are only 6 kW because they're on a 40 amp circuit so they can only output 32 amps continuous. Add the fact most businesses only get 208 V instead of 240 V and you're getting 15% less power compared to a 240 V 32 A charger at most residences.
I don't know why ChargePoint is taking so long to introduce commercial AC chargers that can charge at 40 and 48 amps (on 50 and 60 amp circuits, respectively).
Agreed. My 2023 Bolt pulls 11.6 kW on a level 2 Rivian Waypoint charger. But all the other level 2’s I have used have been 5-7 kW.
I have a LFP model 3 with a 50 mile a day commute. I upgraded my outlet to a 16 amp to boost to a 2 kw charge rate and bought a $35 adapter. I have had no issues.
…. 240v times 16 amps is 3.4kWh. Hell; even at 208v, that’s still 2.9kWh (with the 10% loss factored in on both examples). Where are you getting that 2kW rating from?
@@jacobcarlson4010 bold of u to assume my breakers voltage lol. I am on a 120v 20 am breaker which the wires had already been wired for so I just needed the adapter and to change the outlet myself. I’m just a dumb 22 year old and I was able to do it all myself so for people with a similar commute to mine, it’s worth considering. Plus I believe charging at the lower voltage is more energy efficient, correct me if I am wrong.
Seems to be a consensus Ryan Shaw, Rich Rebuilds also found inoperable and slow chargers. This alone is why we should adopt the tesla standard. Europe made tesla change to ccs so America should make the rest change to tesla and it shouldn't be hard existing cars could use adaptors or be retrofitted
Totally agree! I believe NACS is ultimately going to replace CCS1. It’s just a matter of time at this point.
@@waynelewis9110 the sooner the better
Except that no one seems to acknowledge that all Superchargers have very short cables that need better reach to be compatible with all vehicle ports if they are converted.
@@KyleBrightman eventually can be upgraded but my vision would be to use the existing gas station infrastructure to place these chargers at and eventually they will become fast charging convenience stores with a single gas pump for classic cars
The best use of an EV today is a city car that's tethered to home charging, and owning a second car (ICE or hybrid) for longer trips. Until EV charging times are practical (comparable to filling a gas tank) mass adoption will not occur. I don't expect this to be a reality until near the end of this decade. Yes...there will be early adopters, willing to put up with the inconveniences, much the same as early adopters of ICE vehicles, and they are needed. BUT, history has shown it takes time for new tech to mature enough for the masses to embrace it. PCs and the Internet are good examples. I see no difference with EVs.
Not for me. We took a 3k mile road trip a few months ago in our LR RWD Model 3. According to the Tesla app the car drove itself 94% of the time. We even slept in the car for two nights. The idea of taking a gas car on a long trip makes me not even want to go. Out of curiosity I used ABetterRoutePlanner to see if we could have made the trip in a CCS EV. Nope. Tesla SuC is the reason we purchased the Tesla. Once they open the SuC network to CCS it's a game changer.
@@epcalderhead Spoken like a true early adopter. 🙂 Teslas are head and shoulders better than any other EV offering, but not enough to spur mass EV adoption. Even if they could, Tesla cannot produce enough vehicles to support mass adoption, even if they hit their 20 million goal by 2030. A lot has to improve before the world decides to go EV exclusively.
@@davidwill1320 I think that long-term, other manufacturers will adopt NACS (Tesla) connector. Tesla’s V4 supercharger stalls being able to output 1 MW will be able to charge 2 EVs at once at very high peak charging rates, i.e. 400 kW each. From their, it’ll be up to manufacturers to get the best battery packs that have more resilient chemistries for higher charge cycles and less steep charging curves.
Model 3 is already able to gain 75 miles of range in 5 minutes on V3 superchargers. It’ll be interesting to see how much faster this will be on V4, as well as with newer battery packs. Doubling current performance to 150 miles of range in 5 minutes would be super promising!
@@waynelewis9110 I have no doubt Tesla will hit the mark first but, as I have said, it's not enough to drive a global mass adoption of EVs.
I don’t think its ever going to be just like filling your gas tank, but road tripping an EV is completely practical now. Maybe not everywhere. However, the infrastructure is getting better, and with cars like Model 3 and Ioniq5, charging times and range gained times are extremely good. It’s just a slightly different way to road trip versus ICE.
Please do a video detailing EV charging, it's a new world to me!
I think the best solution for these big battery EVs is 800-volt architecture. If it works for the 77.4 kWh E-GMP cars (EV6, Ioniq 5), then it'll be great for larger battery EV SUVs and trucks. You only need 300 amps to get 225 kW at 750 V. To get that speed at 450 V you need the maximum current CCS1 can provide which is 500 A.
Note that this would only solve DC fast charging speed issues, AC charging wouldn't become faster.
It needs to be at least 150 kW and I think it should be closer to at least 250 kW to be considered a fast charger.
My 2023 Bolt EUV has an 11.6 kW charger onboard. And on a Rivian Waypoint charger it does 11.3 the whole time I am charging.
Living outside of California sounds like it is like living on another planet. Most of our DC fast chargers are at least 150kw if not 350kw. It only takes me about 45 minutes to charge my Lightning Extended range up to 80%.
This problem is what you, Kyle, have talked about for a long time. The most asked question I get is "how long does it take to charge?" "How many 'miles' do you get in 30 mins? I bought the R1T for carrying things in the back so, any more efficient car would not work for my use case.
My i3 maxes out at 50kw DC so 65kw is fine for me, it’s also a 33kw pack so it’s still fast at that rate. We could drive smaller more efficient cars and it would be less of a problem.
The sad part is that they even know and admit that the size and inefficiency of their trucks is the problem, and they’re literally blaming the charging infrastructure for their experience.
I would love a Rivian, but I definitely appreciate how efficient my Niro EV is. Pretty slow DCfast charging unfortunately, but I almost never fast charge it because at home is fine. I have 40 amp level 2 now, but just used a wall outlet level 1 for 1 year/20k miles.
In your case it it fits. But for those that drive a lot and a long way, it is absolutely not practical.
As far as I can tell, the new EA BTC power inverter stations only split at 250A increments so you get either 250 or 500. Don't think I've seen anybody maxing out an installation to see how the total site limits come into play, but sounds like a job for Kyle and friends!
Also means that EA's claim of "minimum 150kW" for the shared power stations is likely only true for 600V+ vehicles.
So far we haven't run into any charging issues in our R1T. The only slow speed we have run into was a 62.5kW charger in Durango, CO. I just dropped the family off at the rental house and charged for 45 minutes and we were set for the whole weekend. I did trickle charge 120v at the rental house which gave me 1.4mi/hr, an extra 30 miles over the weekend. I could see problems in rural areas with those slower Chargepoints though. More chargers!!!
I think this is the key. We need level 2 chargers in EVERY gas station, in every grocery store. They don't have to be free.
I have a road trip for 890 KM with mostly 50KW chargers not a good experience (Kamloops, BC highway 5 / 16 to Edson Alberta), kinda like Bjorn Nyland going to the Arctic Circle but least his route only the last few hundred KM's are at 50KW access. I do have to qualify it 1 -100KW charger has just been enabled on that rout, that actually makes a big difference!
And with NEVI they are just focusing on more corridor charging, not anything off corridor, so it’s unlikely to get much better in the near future if you leave major highways.
Yes, maximum instantaneous miles of range added per hour of charging is a poor measure for comparing vehicles. But for someone who regularly drives long distances the ability to add miles of range quickly is critical. A measure of miles added per hour of charging based on charging over a specific percentage of battery capacity (such as 10-80%) and EPA certified range is helpful for comparison between vehicles.
As you discussed, knowing what chargers are available in your area and their reliability are also important considerations in the purchasing decision.
+1 for a Chargepoint episode.
Everyone needs to know what to know about them. Their business model just prints money and they’re typically reliable but they fall short for users in many ways. I’d love to hear more about how they managed such wide market penetration and how they’re adapting to NEVI power requirements.
According to Chargepoint's SEC filings they actually burn cash alot faster than they can stack it. Don't expect any good user experience from a company with such terrible economics.
As a driver, you are USUALLY not a ChargePoint customer as they are just an intermediary except for publically funded sites. You rarely see their most powerful units (available for years now) because their customers (businesses) are not buying them.
Hilarious how the little Equinox EV can be optioned with an 80 amp onboard charger and the hummer EV cannot
62.5KW is no longer a "Fast Charger" with the EV's we are driving these days
Yeah, I find it funny when people still say that the Bolt EV and EUV has 50 kW DC “fast” charging. That’s not fast charging even by 2020 standards
LoL - I've given up road tripping our Mach-E because of the sad state of infrastructure. Won't be selling the ICE any time soon.
The amount of mental energy needed for EV ownership is staggering. You guys could solve world peace with the amount of mental energy you’re investing in solving range anxiety.
Actually, it’s not much more than when I drove an ICE vehicle. I had to first look at where gas was cheapest, how long it had been at that price, how long the surrounding stations had been at their reported prices; that would just give me a basic idea of how much I’d have to pay to top up if needed, and how likely it was to change (and change, it would; almost invariably). Then I had to look at what all needed to be done in that general vicinity; whether running recyclables, getting animal feed, buying groceries that were on sale, or whatever the case may be. If there wasn’t enough to do in that area, then the trip simply wasn’t worth the gas it’s take; so a no-go. But far more common were the times that I’d get the plan laid out and start running the errands, only for gas prices to jump by 0.20/gal, meaning I could no longer afford as much gas. After all, when a grocery run is 2.35 gallons of gas, in the absolute best case scenario, 0.20/gallon can literally mean the difference between buying 2 gallons of milk, or having to get by with 1.
Strange that my Bolt EUV is a better road trip vehicle in off corridor places than one of these trucks
Efficiency kind of matters and I've never felt this way before" C'mon, Kyle. The writing was on the wall that people switching to truck for the hell of it was an extremely bad trend in the EV world. How did you not understand that? The much bigger problem is how much less sustainable EV pickups are. You drove the XL1, and before that you understood its ethos. Face it. You've let your guard down, as have many in the EV world, feeling like we can have it all and no compromises, because it's electric. Same problem with the Plaid. The EV community needs to check its privilege using up all the battery resources of the world. Time for Out of Spec to take an e-bike journey with the solar challenge guys to renew your commitment to the Climate.
Driving a mod y in Australia i find one of my biggest limitations is that we can only get 11 kw on a ac charge.
We could get away with a 22kw ac onboard charger since we have very sparse fast chargers in most areas in Australia but its not unusual for a 32 amp 3 phase socket to be lying around thats 415v and most houses have the ability to upgrade to 3 phase power.
Almost all businesses have 3 phase power available.
or..... NACS!!!!
Always thought that a work parking lot, hotel, apartments, shopping mall would benefit from a row (lets say 8) DC fast charge plugs powered by a central (lets say 100 kw) power connection. As spots empty or fill up, the bank would route power to the various plugs. If you need fast charging, you go to a dedicated plug, but if your looking for a top off, or not in a hurry to leave, this approach would be an economical way to charge a large number of EV's.
I've recently had a long discussion with an American why Pickups and gigantic SUV's will never be good EVs. They didn't understand it. Électrification will ultimately mean, cars need to be somewhat reasonable. On the long run, around 100kWh of battery and 2.5mi/kWh @70mph will be roughly the upper limit of what can be considered reasonable.
Just an observation (as an R1T owner myself): Moving from ICE to EV, I knew full well what the charging challenges were - and that sufficient infrastructure could potentially be years away. That said, I also knew that this was going to be my daily driver - not a road-tripper or camper tower. While I sincerely appreciate the information (and technical explanations), I think a bit of perspective is in order. Just for clarity, it would also be important to mention that 1.8 kWh efficiency is on the low end. Here in (flat) Texas, I can use the Conserve mode and reasonably expect 2.34 kWh traveling at normal highway speeds.
As a daily commuter, I plug in when I get home - every other day - just to top off to 70%. At 70%, in All Purpose mode (using all 4 motors), I have 218 miles of range. Is that not a reasonable amount for a single day? Just my thoughts. LOVE your channel and all the informative content. Thank you.
Good review of the state of charging on road trips. I assume the cost of installation of a charging station is not inexpensive. It would be nice if Kyle can look into this and report on such. Charging stations are a big impediment to EV adaptability. Battery technology improvements are also needed. Right now it just doesn’t make sense to buy a total EV for larger vehicles. Not everyone can only use a sedan nor want to drive a small car. Larger cars/vehicles offer greater protection is serious accidents. Also, ride comfort becomes a bigger issue as one gets older (at least for me).
EA seems always broken, chargepoint is more reliable but chargepoint has that monster "elephant trunk" cable and the ridiculous swing-head that always wants to pull the cable (and you) back to the tower. Yuck!
It would be amazing to have 80 amp level 2 being the standard.
It's also shameful that Toyota puts super slow level 2 chargers in their Prime cars by default; you want the hybrids to plug in, but it sucks that they get 40 miles in like 3 hours
Also MPH is a horrible metric always. Mile per minute might be kind of useful. But you see people saying they are charging at 1000 mph, but it only last 3 minutes, so it gives people a false sense of speed and range.
I like mph... perhaps it should average over the course of the charging session. 🤔 🤷🏾
@@SDot-dp9xm so when you can say 1000 mph but after an hour you only have 320 miles of charge and you still think that’s a good method?
I guess is could be OK for Level 2 charge since it doesn’t change through out the charge, but then people compare and say why does my Rivian get so many less MPH vs my Model 3. The charger is broken.
@Eric Roe your statement is flawed. You wouldn't charge at 1000mph for one hour and only have 320 miles of range...ie why i suggested avg...get it? That means in the charging session you attempted to describe you may have started at 1000mph and then quickly tappered off to a much lower level to get 320miles of range
@@SDot-dp9xm exactly! That’s why MPH is a horrible metric.
@@ericroe 🤷🏾
I have a dual-inverter, 80-amp charging on my Tesla Model S. I've never used it.
The problem with the Rivian is that it is too inefficient. It is still an experimental vehicle. The only current viable solution to the problem is either making it a hybrid or introduce battery swap. The idea of expecting high powered chargers all over the place is fantasy right now. It is not practical to do so.
But doesn't fast charging or putting more amps into a battery to make it fast charge faster degrades and heats up the battery quicker vs slow charging and the battery will last longer. But I have read that they are trying to charge batteries as quickly as refilling a gas tank which is 5 to 8 minutes
This is the gas truck cost anxiety transposed to EV trucks.
It is the double whammy that all of us truck people have been warning and complaining about. It takes too long to recharge and does not go far enough between chargers towing.
That is why all of us truck people are saying 500 mile range minimum to make up for use losses at highway speeds towing or traveling.
Being able to run all day working on one charge.
Also We need a range extended Electric truck. 80 KW battery with an onboard petrol engine generator.
Stay out of the range extender as much as possible until absolutely needed.
This all highlights just how much of a mistake it was to develop CCS1. The whole industry should have went to type 2 right then and there for AC and CCS2 for DC.
Some EVs can do as much as 48kW on three phase type 2 and I’ve got to believe the EVSE for that application is cheaper than a 50kW DC charger.
The EV trucks you have now could have had that level of AC charging but because the industry failed to look to the future and switch to type 2, we’re stuck with underpowered type 1 and NACS.
NACS is more powerful and capable than both CCS1 and CCS2. It’s in the documentation. I think at this point, NACS plug will ultimately replace CCS1, and we won’t see Type 2. Many people assume that the rest of the world uses CCS2, when the largest EV market in the world doesn’t use it. China uses GB/T, and is planning on significantly upgrading it to surpass the performance of Type 2/CCS2.
The EU settled on CCS2 as their standard when EV market share was around 5% in the region. That same market share is where we are right now in the US, and even lower when considering NA as a whole. US EV market share is still tiny. We are right at the beginning of the S-curve. It’s not too late at all for NACS to be the standard. Ford will likely be the first legacy automaker to use NACS.
As Chinese EV makers expand into the US, they will more than likely opt to use NACS instead of CCS. The inlet and connectors are both cheaper than CCS’s, and EV makers like NIO are definitely aware of how unreliable Electrify America and other third-party charging networks that use CCS are. Using NACS, NIO (which has plans for a US factory) can provide their vehicles with instant access to Tesla’s reliable and expansive Supercharger network, and also build their own NIO Power NACS stations for cheaper than CCS stations, which would be open to all EVs.
My Niro EV at 77kw sounds pretty smart now.
Magically efficient car
Higher-voltage charging isn't limited by wiring and connectors, it is the Utility install and rate structure.
This is what separates Tesla and Lucid from everyone else. Teslas and Lucid are incredibly efficient. If I really wanted to, I could do much more than the 330 quoted range of my MY. Keep speeds at like 50mpg and that car averages kWh/mile in the 100’s range. It’s insane.
Slow chargers shouldn't be removed, as they should be there for emergencies. But slow chargers are only good for overnight charging like at work, a camp site, hotel stay, at home, or as mentioned, emergencies in the middle of the mountains where some small museum has a couple J1772 chargers. I drive a '23 Bolt, I'm honestly fine with the super slow 55kW charging, even on road trips, doesn't hurt me too much. Even at home, I charge at 120v 12a, sometimes even just 8a. Trickle charging is my go to over night. Very few times have I needed faster charging, if I come home on a dead battery and need to leave in the morning and no time to fast charge.
Sounds like for these vehicles need 2 ac charge ports for slow charging at locations. Our Y we have only had to charge outside the house a handful of times.
The solution is to buy smaller, more efficient vehicles with smaller batteries. I’m looking forward to the Ioniq 6
Hmmm, it’s clear now that I definitely need to wait for the cyber truck and take advantage of Tesla’s charging infrastructure. It’s not enough to have a cool adventurous truck when you can barely charge it.
How many people on here are the type that drive their EV all the way to almost zero percent then pull over and charge all the way up to 80 to 100 percent? How many people on here are the type that stop at a charger more often and charge a little bit as you go? I do the second…I pull over and go to the bathroom and get something to drink and supercharge as much as I can in that 10 to 15 minutes….
And this is why most trucks get sold to west coast and places with charging infrastructure. For road trips across country you need to be in vacation mode and maybe take advantage of plug in camping
I don't see 3θ happening in NA for the same reasons I don't see NACS happening, it's too much change for too little benefit. I think 277VAC charging would be really cool to see in cars but as you guys already noted tesla stopped supporting that in modern vehicles, maybe we'll see it show up again? Tbh I sort of expect low power DC to fill that market and AC will probably sit at 240VAC max since that is residential voltage and DC can otherwise fill the need, granted at higher cost than something like 80A@277VAC
Went to Virginia last week (I have a M3) where we were there were a lot of 150kw so we used them and they are so slow!. The 250kwh are really the only ones to use on a trip but a lot of times they arent available when needed. The infrastructure needs a ton of work! I cant imagine a truck and only having 62kw charger , forget that. It would be nice for the hotels/motels to have chargers. if that was available the car would have been more like having a gas car. that means add maybe 5-10 slow chargers per hotel and upping that number as EVs become more in use. However what y'all are talking about doesnt make sense no way 3rd party chargers at this point are even usable just wait for CT if you want a truck.
Would love to see you get an electrician and an engineer on the podcast to discuss this. I'd love to hear their point of view.
wow, if i wanna go 400 miles in my car it takes 5 mins. at a gas station.
Lightning 150 also very slow. No range. Tesla is so far ahead with its charging network. Most people only see the car. They need to look at charging network, speed of charging and range. Tesla is number one and I am thinking that the cyber truck will be a game changer.
Love my Model 3 Long Range charging experience at WaWa!
I drive the Ioniq 5 and I still have trouble driving on the eastern part of the state. The charging stations in Charlotte are not that great either.
V4 Sperchargers plus the CyberTruck! 💪💪💪
I'm all for EVs. In fact, I'm still waiting on my Rivian R1T. I have MaxPack and I want a power Tonneau, so I'm waiting a bit. Why the MaxPack? It's not because I'm afraid of range, but rather I'm looking at places I would go (even once a year) that would be extremely hard or impossible to reach just due to charging issues. And if a single charger is down, may leave you stranded.
This isn't range anxiety, but just weary of the lack of chargers.
Go ahead and open up something like ABetterRoutePlanner and try to plan a trip from eastern Massachusetts to Pittsburgh, NH. This is a LARGE town on the border of Canada and one of the best snowmobiling areas in New England. Even if you are not dragging a trailer and renting sleds up there, see if you can find a way to get there and back home. To get there, you have to go into Vermont to find a charger which is WAY out of the way. and even if you top off to 100% there, what you have left to start home isn't enough to get back to a charger (and of course, this is something I have not seen ANY planner mention) Now, imagine arriving in northern Vermont and the charger is down.
We are talking snowmobiling, so it's winter in New England. You are not getting the range that planner just told you. If you are stuck, you are REALLY stuck.
Look around the White Mountains of New Hampshire. Imagine planning a couple hikes on a week vacation. I can easily find places I've gone that you would kill time having to return to Conway or Lincoln for a 50kw charger.
For an "Adventure" vehicle, it's pretty easy to find adventures that are very common where you won't make it.
A popular 4x4 trip here in New England is to go find "The Trains in Maine" which are 2 abandoned steam locomotives in the Maine wilderness. ICE 4x4s go on this trip every year. It is not a hard off-road trip and you don't need anything fancy to make it. There is NO WAY you'd make it in a Rivian.
Plan a trip from Boston to Sugarloaf for skiing. This one can be done, but you can't do it for a weekend getaway because all you have is AC chargers to begin the trip home. (unless you drive a Tesla or can use a Tesla charger)
You don't even need to find remote areas of the Southwest, it's possible to find popular areas not that far from major eastern cities where most EVs simply are a royal PIA or impossible to reach.
Kyle, your voice sounds exactly like Dr. Demento from old school radio. It's kinda eerie how much you sound like him! Anyone ever tell you that before? Do you know who he is? He was awesome.
I firmly believe, charging by the minute, should be absolutely illegal. No competitive incentive to have faster charging stations. At that point the only incentive is to keep the pumps working long enough for you to stay at their site.
Making the general public subside $$$ charging stations should be illegal. Actually the bill will be going to the next generation already doomed by 31 trillion in debt. Ruin the future of our children.
@@stevemurray710 I feel like you are missing the broader picture here. EV charging stations only account .00079% of the federal budget.
The federal budget is 6.7 trillion and the EV incentives are only 5 billion. Yes, 5 billion lot of money but the average person dramatically underestimates. How big the federal budget is every year.
If you’re talking about not bankrupt in your children’s future, you should be talking about transparent budgets for the US government not a small drop in the bucket here.
@@BlueSnowOfficial I'm for small government and free market all the way. If a company or investors thinks they can make a profit my making an electric car or a charging stations then go for it. If it won't fly on merit alone then wait until it makes sense. In the 100 years of the ice I don't think the government gave anybody a special break to build a gas station. Gas stations make money. Starbucks makes money. JC Penney used to make money. Charging stations? Money pit. Losses.
Charging a vehicle should not be a competition.
We need almost universal level 2 charging at motels and hotels.
The time-based DCFC model has its merits; the cost of that last 80-100% topoff needs to be very costly, to encourage earlier unplugging.
Imagine the service requirements to power the Megawatt class Semi and Cybertruck.
No one needs a huge Hummer. If you are buying a Rivian or other huge truck that is only ever going to be a driveway queen, and not actually used regularly for what a pickup truck is for, then it is your own fault for buying something that has such a huge battery that gets such crappy miles per kilowatt. If home charging on 220 volts with highest amps doesn't meet the needs of the average daily driving then there is no reason that an EV with such a big battery getting that crappy if kilowatts per mile to exist. Why because you are then trying to force public chargers to install charging stations that are way more expensive so in the end we end up with fewer chargers at each location. With those fewer super high power chargers those Rivians and other huge battery low miles per kilowatt EVs are hogging up those chargers because they have to sit there for an hour or two. I much rather have way more 150 kilowatt chargers and way more 50 kilowatt chargers.
Ford has lead the way to converting to NACS. Rivian is a great candidate to follow.
If we’re not we should be
Love it. So when you hit the 1.8/1.6 miles per KwH you are now contributing more co2 to the environment than a truck that can get 25 mpg. Probably about the same as a diesel Gladiator that is rated at 28 mpg. I drive very conservatively in an area where it tops out at 55 mpg. Bet I can break 30 mpg. Excellent! I was going Lightning for my next vehicle but the Jeep is more environmentally friendly. Jeep it is. Even better I'll buy used so I'm not carbon responsible for the build. But wait, there's more. No need to create more carbon building more EV stations in my rural area. Refuel in 5 min so more time fishing.
You would have to go through to 1.04 mi/kWh to be close to 30mpg and you could still offset most of the carbon with at home solar charging. If I had a 7kWh system at my house I could produce over 8,000 kWh/yr and if I drove 5000 mi per year it would be ~2,500 kWh/yr ($250 if paying our normal $0.10/kWh). So in effect I could drive completely carbon neutral once all the manufacturing is taking into account, after ~3 years or so. I’m also in the PNW which gets about 70% of its power from renewable sources (mostly hydro).
@@greentransmission maybe. We also didn't calculate transmission losses from power stations. Could be as much as 4%. Lots of variables. All co2 calculations need a few grains of salt. In any case it is like peeing in the Mississippi to help with the seasonal draught. Don't get me wrong I love the tech. I'd buy a Sono Sion in a heartbeat. Perfect beach house car. Probably never need a charge because of the little usage. But it wouldn't serve the environment. Just as the Hummer EV doesn't. I would need to drive at least 60k miles in my current vehicle before that would exceed the estimated production co2 of a new EV. I'd love to see the co2 footprint if every registered private vehicle was a Hummer EV, included build, infrastructure and road repair, vs if every one was the F150.
@@doclees11 good points, and I agree with you - I don’t think everyone could (or should) drive a Hummer EV, but if we get to a point where more people are driving electric vehicles with V2G capabilities and solar on their roofs (etc) I think we would all be better off. We also need better public transportation and better designed communities that rely less on personal vehicles for day to day activities.
@@greentransmission I don't feel comfortable believing we will all be better off with these changes. Just check with the poor in the DRC or the indigenous people of Chile. Keep in mind the reason we went from horses to ICE carriages was due to the health risks of horse pollution. Horse crap/pee/carcasses. No one likes public transportation. Now if you can Uber an autonomous car for the cost of a bus pass then sure, that would work. Yeah I have no doubt if all the avaliable private family homes had enough solar, about 15kw $30k system, for the 2.5 person home we would be better off. But not for the first 3 yrs. Takes that long to cancel out the manufacturing co2. My 12kw system takes care of all(2 adults) our needs. Great stuff. Now you may need trees cut, 3 for us, and if your roof is questionable better do it now. Don't want to pay for all those panels to be removed and reinstalled. Oh wait, there's more. 25-30 yrs they need recycled. Currently they don't recycle well. Toxic metals that leach into landfills. Just no free lunch.
@@doclees11 I drive a 2013 Nissan Leaf that costs $5200 (with an Oregon incentive) and barley nothing to drive. It’s doesn’t have to be expensive.
I think it’ll eventually get better but I think this is something that’s going to really break the approach that Ford and GM are taking with their suv EVs. If Tesla opens up superchargers then great but efficiency is everything for EVs right now.
Ohhh... how would NIO's Battery Swap Station change the narrative...
Either way, the batteries would have to charge. So when the battery swap station goes through all of its swaps of sufficiently charged batteries, then it’s back to crappy third-party chargers. Tesla’s supercharger network is the gold standard. I’ve also heard good things about NIO’s chargers. BEVs will have to increase charging speeds with each generation.
If you want to see my whole 600 mile trip, the video is here: ruclips.net/video/KSZGcBu1n_k/видео.html
Branden, you really hit the nail on the head with the 277V charging. I really think SAE should make a new revision of J1772 that includes support for 277V. That would allow AC charging to be added to a lot of places, such as on light poles which are typically 277V. Imagine if we could somehow have a 277V charger on every light pole in parking lots or on city streets.
2:40 what? Miles per hour is literally the only metric that accounts for efficiency. It’s literally the BEST comparison method. Absolute nonsense to say otherwise.
NACS is the solution, manufacturers just need to embrace it.
Both of these guys have videos on the NACS and it has nothing to do with charging speed and only has to do with the physical plug convenience. Existing stations with CCS could add a NACS but the charging power (kW) available at that location is the exact same.
No it is not. You and everyone else are confusing the issues CCS charging station providers are having with equipment as being related to the CCS standard. The CCS standard isn't the root cause of most issues, it is the poor quality first generation charging infrastructure. Tesla has been custom building their Superchargers from the ground up while CCS charging stations are only recently transitioning to custom built architecture. Most pre-2020 CCS charging stations used off the shelf components from power conversion transformers.
@@Scott-sm9nm I think it’s deeper than that. Third-party charging networks, especially Electrify America, never really had the incentive to make sure that their chargers are reliable, as strategically placed, and also high-powered in sufficient numbers. Tesla, on the other hand, had their priorities straight, as they would have gone bankrupt had their customers been dissatisfied with their experience at superchargers.
Had they been dissatisfied enough times, customers would have traded in their Teslas and gone back to driving ICE vehicles in droves. If this happened to a legacy automaker like GM (which it definitely has quite a bit with the Bolt) between 2016 up until now, it didn’t matter to GM since they make their money from ICE vehicles, and loses money on EVs.
If EVGo or even a new EV charging company starts building NACS stations based off of the specifications in the document that Tesla provided, I think you’d end up with more reliable, high-powered charging stations over time. Heck, I bet GM is going to start building charging stations eventually under their new GM Energy division. GM absolutely loves government money, and I don’t believe that they’re just going to miss out on the funds that are available for EV charging stations. If GM builds NACS chargers, they can do it at a lower cost than building CCS1 chargers, thereby building more chargers with less money. It’s a no brainer!
No y’all don’t understand my point, screw 3rd party chargers, put the NACS plug on cars so they can use Tesla’s chargers. THAT is the solution.
@@ArtiePenguin1 I said nothing about charging station providers. Don’t put words in my mouth. The solution is to allow all cars to use the one charging station provider that can maintain functional chargers, and that’s Tesla. The only way that will happen is if vehicle manufacturers embrace NACS.
Inefficient vehicles need big dumb batteries to achieve useful range. This should have been no surprise to people like Kyle.
Same slow charging for a F 150?
Why are you only getting 1.8 M/KWH? The Bearded Tesla Guy did a review in Rivian and got over 300 miles on a full charge at 70mph
I wonder when people start to recognize the difference in efficiency between those playthings from Ford and Rivian and a Tesla Semi.
The Tesla Semi took 920kWh for 500 miles or about 1,84 kWh/mile.
That would mean its efficiency is 18.3 MPGE.
Lets say the whole shebang was rigged by Tesla and only a big bunch of Marketing hype and Ads for Edmunds & Co and it really takes 1 MWh for 500 miles or 2 kwh/mile or 16.85 MPGE.
Thats fully loaded to the brim!
Ok lets say it was a even bigger marketing sca, than Nikola and the truck weighs 5000 pounds more than a regular truck.
That would mean it transports around 40.0000 pounds of products for 16.85 MPGE.
Thats about the amount of energy a Chevrolet Silverado 2023 needs EMPTY!
What are the mpge of Rivian and Lightning? Very good, in fact.
@@jamesengland7461 The official MPGE are 70 for the Rivian and 68 for the Ford.
The semi has somewhere around 60 MPGE. Fully loaded. With how much tons? I guess about 25.
One Rivian has 1 ton? Not really, but lets pretend.
25 Rivians have the same efficiency as ONE Semi.
That means Rivian has 70/25 = 2,8 MPGE.
Interesting...
A Model Y has half ton load and 125 MPGE or 2,5 MPGES - Miles per gallon equivalent for Semi.
Or maybe its 2.5 MPGET - Miles per gallon equivalent per ton transported?
Of course a empty or nearly empty Semi has a very bad MPGE compared to a Nissan Leaf or VW ID4...
@@wolfgangpreier9160 You're making stuff up now. You already said the semi has 16.85 mpge, and the pickups 68-70. That's the whole answer. Otherwise, it's a pointless comparison. A diesel semi gets 5-7mpg, while most cars get under 30, so there's a ratio of about 4 to 1 between semis and cars, no matter what. That doesn't make cars useless or inefficient.
@@jamesengland7461 The Semi has a consumption of 1.7 kWh/mile, i have to look that strange conversion up its MPGe = mi/kWh × 33.705
I can more easily work with metric values.
Thats 1,056 kWh/km for about 25 tons of load. Or about 42,25 Wh/km/ton. Maybe its a few tons more maybe less, it does not really matter.
My Model Y uses 176 Wh/km for 0,5 tons of load. Thats 352 wh/km/ton
A F150 uses about 496 Wh/mile or 308 Wh/km or with a max payload capacity of 2000 pounds or 907 kg thats 339 Wh/km/ton
Based on the payload the Semi is about 8 times more efficient than a pickup or 8,3 times more efficient than a Model Y.
Here the issue, how many cars can take more than 50kw? If only 2% of cars in America are electric, what % are able to get the 100kw you are talking about? Average person who gets an EV is using it for daily driving and it's a second car in the household, or the main car and they don't travel much.
So what if the Cybertruck is more efficient than a Lightning or Rivian.
So it turns out big heavy trucks are inefficient no matter their power source. Businesses needing trucks for local work that got Lightning Pros at $41k are going to save a ton of money on fuel costs. And people who only use their trucks as local pavement princesses will enjoy going electric. But when they encounter the reality of aerodynamics at interstate speeds and slow and unreliable CCS charging, they’re not going to be happy with the length of time spent at charging stops. And most buyers aren’t prepared for the range losses at interstate speeds, range loss with heater use, plus range loss while towing. Not everyone is going to haul their boat up a mountain in sub-freezing temps, but truck buyers do expect their trucks to be able to do it all. The solution for the near future would seem to be plug-in hybrid trucks with a large enough battery to make local trips electric, but provide gas-powered range and towing.
time to lease your battery and then swap it out instead of charge it?
PLEASE stop bagging on ID.4 owners. Most are as clueless as all other EV owners, but there’s just as many of us, percentage-wise, that get it. We (my wife and I) make every effort to use 150 chargers at EA leaving CHAdeMO and 350’s for those that need/can use them. We see the Bolt drivers pull up to the 350’s and roll our eyes like every one else, and we charge enough to comfortably get to the next charger. From our ID.4 owner eyes we see a similar percentage clueless drivers from every vehicle make, regardless of free charging. Ionic owners are to only ones we’ve been delayed by for not getting back to their car and moving it after 100%, but I know that was just chance. We have a about 40,000 miles road tripping the ID.4 so we have limited experience. If we only have 350’s available when we arrive we obviously use them, but we always offer to move to a 150 if one becomes available and any of the faster charging vehicles are there. The only way that might change is if we get grief from other vehicle owners about being an ID.4 owner. My wife will continue to do the right thing, but I would definitely get stubborn and the Rivian driver can wait on the 150. I mention all this because the last two of your videos I watched you bagged on ID.4 owners with the “why are they all so stupid” type comment. You have influence over how they might act in the future so please be nicer about how you try to educate them or some of the good ones might be less helpful next time you need a 350. We all know it’s going to get worse before it (hopefully) gets better so reenforcing good etiquette is your only hope. Safe travels and thank you for the good information you get out.
The problem is VW includes free charging, that alone creates a bunch of offenders. If you’re in the know, do what you can to get VW to stop giving unlimited charging and spread the word amongst ID4 owners that have no clue. A lot of the offenders are locals that are just being cheap, they could charge at home but clog up the stations trying to save a couple bucks.
Wait for a cyber truck lol. Going to be easy to charge I believe they will implement a 800/450 dual architecture