This story is irritating because the first officer (if you read the flight report) made several points between taxiing, and take off that they shouldn’t fly, and I feel like the sound of his last words were a clear sign of disappointment in the CPT.
they were using a part power setting for noise abatement. a false EPR reading meant the throttle setting was too low. the pilot flying should have pushed the throttles forward for more power. Thats why the captian was saying forward forward.
@@kewkabe Ok yes thats is most probable . The stick shaker starts 2 secs after V2 and a max height of 350 ft was reached stick forward couldnt save them but toga maybe?
“We’re going down, Larry.” You can hear the disappointment in his voice when he says that. Dude made so many attempts to make it apparent they were in no condition to take off, only for the captain to disregard it all and end up killing them.
I was a captain of a CRJ-200 (now an FO again) and I always told my FOs to SPEAK UP no matter what! I didn't care what it was. Even if it was about something as simple as a landing light, LET ME KNOW. I am human, far from perfect. The best FOs are the ones who speak up no matter what. I was always happy to listen to them and rethink any decision.
WM hope you can find your way out of the rj world. I hear it is a pretty rough gig. But at least you are getting to live the dream. I have a buddy flying rich people around in a Phenom 300. Every time he posts on FB I get depressed and super jealous.
Crazy how calm and respectful he was but brutal by making it known the consequence of Larry oversight only to have him and that really upset Larry apparently if you go near the crash site some say that you can still hear Larry saying I know waiting for a response from his superior first officer.
I am an airline captain for a big international airline. I watch those videos for fun and for educational reasons. What I have learned from those RUclips-Videos? When a first officer says: Go Around! ....and you do not .....the average lifespan is 20 seconds. If a first officer says "something is wrong" during take off roll and you do not abort...the average life-span is also 20 seconds.
@@TransistorBased I worked with a major US airline back in 2015. We had a senior Captain on the 752 who performed a high speed abort of the takeoff roll. The brakes and wheels had to be replaced, but this was at a spoke not a hub, and so it took 2 weeks to get equipment out there and repair the bird. The Captain was forced to retire about a month or two later. It was very close to just being a termination and not forced retirement. I thought that was really fucked up. I later learned maintenance had warned her, before departure, that she'd get an aural alert for some issue and that she should ignore it and continue the take-off because it's ok to fly. When the aural alert sounded she aborted, causing the damage and cancellations. But being a pilot myself, I can say that you don't know what the alerts are until you look at the screen - your instinct is to abort at the sound and figure out what's wrong later. Anyways, this was a long post to say that there is still to this day a lingering fear of getting the book thrown at you for aborting or ruining the flow. It's nowhere near the level of the 60's, 70's, and 80's, but it's there. I left the airlines; I operate freight and commuter trains for a railroad now, and we have that same lingering fear.
@@dr.feelgood.1330 Its highly disturbing that you are making a joke at the expense of people who suffered untimely deaths. And you call yourself doctor feel good
It must have sucked to be going down, and knowing you should have trusted your gut. I think when he says "I know", at the very end, its sort of a detached "I told you so".
It was a different time. I talked to an old captain hired in the 1960's once. He said "my job is to teach the first officer how to fly". No...your job is to work WITH the first officer to make sure your flight is conducted safely. The F/O was advocating his point as much as he could in that era. Today, the F/O would be acknowledged. The takeoff would be delayed until BOTH pilots felt good about going. They killed a lot of people in the old days before CRM.
@@BritanniaPacific The Tenerife Disaster is hard to follow and complex, CRM would have prevented the take-off because the FO would say something and definitely save a lot of lives, however weather and radio communication as well as spacial disorientation were key factors, for example if the ATC communicated with the pilots and the other way around properly, then the outcome would be the same as with CRM; no disaster. Best to have all the gaps sealed
I worked at the college radio station at Va Tech in Jan 1982. We had those old, green metal, teletype AP Newswire printers. When something bad happened the bell would ring 10 times. It usually never rang. Reagan assassination attempt last time it rang. I am in the hallway, it starts to ring, and I walked over to the printer and I watched as this bulletin was typed out.
So sad....imagine being on that plane expected to be leaving snowy D.C. and headed to sunny Florida only to lose your life in the frozen Potomac River. I remember that day very vividly. It was on the news all night
Sad because the first officer (who was an Air Force pilot) knew something was wrong, but the captain (who had a shoddy record at best) continued with the takeoff because he was wanted to get out of town with the current snowstorm.
Well he got out of town alright, along with most of the passengers. I'm glad that crew management systems are better now: the captain never should have had the authority to put passengers at grave risk. The wings were iced over and proper procedure hadn't been performed to ensure ALL the ice was gone. Captain was wrong and he should have stood down, but it wasn't even a "thing" back then: they had the final word.
1st officer being calm And then he says We're going down Larry seconds away from his death The 1st officer is like the most chilling person from seconds away from his death to me
I remember this day. I lived in the DC area and was 13 at the time. The school buses got stuck in the snow and parents had to come to school and pick up their kids. My dad showed up about two hours after school because he had to work. On top of the plane crash, metro rail had a fatal accident that day and DC traffic was at a standstill. The city was in total gridlock until the next day.
I will never forget because I was at FSU at a popular bar on a Wednesday night a few hours later and spoke to a friend about the crash. She mentioned her dad was in DC and was heading to FTL but she wasn't worried because he never flew Air Florida. Turns out, he had hopped on because his other flight had been canceled. She didn't know yet.
they had the engines at 85 percent thrust because of incorrect gauge readings and they didnt want to damage the engines by going full throttle. I was a jet engine mechanic in the military, after replacing engines we took the aircraft to the runup area and tie it down with chains. Then we ran the engine at several parameters, the last test was the hi-power test, where we push the throttle full forward and ran it for 5 minutes at max thrust. It had to pass the hipower test to be good to return to service. In other words, no matter what the gauges say, running the engines at full power aint going to damage them. Like they say "power is life" they waited too long to push throttles forward and the engines need time to spool up. When your losing speed and are low to the ground you have milliseconds to make the right decision.
I work for the airlines, the MD-11 actually had a gate on the throttles, if you were in an emergency, you could shove the throttles past the gate for 105% of power!
@@Bankable2790 I'm not 100% sure on their reasoning, but I don't think they realized the severity of the situation until it was too late. It sounds like there were noise abatement procedures in place so they had to run at a derated engine pressure. If they thought there was no real danger, I can see why they wouldn't want to break noise regulations and push the engines any harder than they thought would be required. Unfortunately since the engines weren't displaying correctly they didn't realize it had a lot more power to give.
i think we've known about fight or flight response for about the past ~200 years this really doesn't provide anything about human psychology that we didn't already know.
@@ChristopherGray00 Nonsense. It's immensely important. That's why they employ cockpit voice recorders - to study the interaction of pilots with the machine; to understand and improve response interactions and airline safety overall.
It was another age chain of command was still much more the norm, look at crashes like BEA548(10 years earlier)... thats before you even consider a whole host of crashes with Korean aircraft all connected with CRM
@@BillSmith-rx9rm Funny my dad tells a story of being a co-pilot back in the 1960s and him thinking his career was over because of questioning a captain's actions(I should add he was correct!), weirdly if included a railway track over a runway!!!!
Boeing and GE ran a mess of tests after this crash using differing levels of suspected wing contamination. In all of them, the plane was capable of climbing out had they simply shoved the throttles to the stops. The EPR readings were wrong because the compressor inlet probe was iced up. It was iced up because they neglected to turn ENG ANTI-ICE on after the engines were started. Additionally, had they looked at N2 and fuel flow the instant they said, "that's not right" they might have either aborted or shoved in the power. Every pilot should know what the N2 and fuel flow should look like at takeoff thrust. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I did fly commercially for a long time.
Wait, they had stick shaker and couldn’t climb and they didn’t apply full power? Why? I fly microlights (a bit, never got the licence just had a lot of lessons) and to me, if I started stalling it’s nose down full power. Why not? I don’t get it
I watched the rescue efforts as it happened live on TV. In recent years I have flown into Reagan airport numerous times. Every the plane follows the Potomac River to the runway, I think about this accident.
A short bio of the flight info, i.e. date, city, weather and what occurred WOULD be helpful for those who do NOT know this accident based solely on it's flight number and airline.
That's what I was thinking. Poor quality from the uploader you literally have to look up each one for an explanation. They don't even do the bare minimum of putting the date in the vid. Lazy..
The FO really should have trusted his instincts. Something really wasn't right. Rejecting a takeoff when you don't really need to is embarrassing, but continuing with one that's in trouble is not going to have a happy ending.
@@mstewie9718 I agree with you, CRM now means the Captain would likely have aborted the take-off as soon as the FO speaks up that something is wrong (which he did, but not very clearly or with much authority, probably leading the Captain to believe that whatever the problem was it could be solved once they were airborne).
Look, we know the captain made mistakes: big mistakes. We are all rightly questioning. But on the other side, who knows what pressures the guy was under. Who knows what the airline culture was? Perhaps he had done the same no issues 10 times before. Regardless of all of this, he is not here to explain his actions. I am certain if he was here today, he would be very remorseful but he only got one chance. Others may have gotten away with the same. He has the weight of hundreds of souls on his name. He had a family who loved him. Let’s recognise he’s a man who made a mistake, but have the compassion to forgive. I know it’s hard but as I say, I am sure if he were here right now, he would be absolutely gutted with grief and regret. Imagine how his family feel. He made one critical error on one day and now his entire existence is defined by this. Just saying, don’t be too hard; he didn’t want to die and he didn’t intend to kill all those people.
The industry learned from this and other accidents resulting in a lot of positive changes in the eighties. One was never hit the ground without first pushing the thrust levers all the way up.
This model turbo jet gets the thrust it needs at high speed , they were scary in summers hot weak air ....they damaged 1or both engines using thrust reversers which sucked ice into the intake , plus it was icing up again even after deiced
Dave Bar the engines were not damaged at all! the EPR valve was, do to using reverse thrust to back the place from the terminal. So they thought they had the takeoff power needed to go. But since they did not get a true power reading, they didn't have the A/S to stay in the air. They still had 2,200 foot lbs of thrust left., Very sad. Also most Jets take about 30 to 33 seconds to takeoff. It took them 45 seconds to takeoff do to poor runway conditions, very sad.
I always told myself that if I feel there’s something wrong I stop doing it. This video is a good example why it’s an advice everyone should listen to. May everyone involved in that crash rest in peace 🙏🏻
It's easy to say, not easy to do. Think about it, if you are in a job for a number of years but there is somebody you are paired with that has been there many years longer than you, chances are that person is going to know the job inside and out. It is, after all, your goal to be in that job one day. Well, humans make mistakes - and it is clear to everybody the mistake that was made in DC that day. It's sad but like so many tragedies was preventable. The best I can say is that we LEARN from these awful accidents, we LEARN so they don't happen again. The Tenerife disaster really started people thinking about communication and how to effectively work together in the cockpit - it wasn't the first crash to highlight the need for FOs to speak up and challenge the Captain. Air Florida 90 certainly exposed the need even more; CRM has come a long long way in four decades. The other facet of the Air Florida crash that has improved is deicing procedures. A lot of research has gone into using the right amount and right mixture of glycol for specific weather and temperatures. After deicing, pilots know they can't sit around for too long and allow ice to build up before takeoff, another contributing factor to Air Florida 90. Finally, planes don't rely on the heat from other aircraft engines to deice the planes these days.
Why they didn’t firewall the throttles is a mystery to me. From the very beginning of flight training we are taught how to avoid a takeoff stall. The aircraft was healthy from a performance standpoint. Fly the plane, full throttle if necessary. Once you commit to the takeoff there’s no reason to baby the engines. The alternative, obviously, was a departure stall and crash
Different times. There was no CRM back then. It was a Captains airline and the Captain didn't want to damage the engines by pushing them to the stops (no FADEC back then) and having to explain why to the company. It's also likely he didn't know the effects cold had on the EPR readings, nor did it sound like he knew he was flying in ground effect. "We just need to get to 500 (feet)" suggests he thought he could still climb at the current setting. This crash happened pretty fast honestly.
Well they weren’t sitting in a chair at home with all the facts and reports to hand. They were there and in those few seconds it didn’t occur to them that lack of thrust was the one of several possible issues.
@@WestAirAviationground effect? It got to like 380 ft. I have flown microlights and ground effect is like 10 ft. Surely it’s not ground effect at 380ft, it was just momentum running out from the climb?
@@RaferJeffersonIII They only got to that altitude due to the energy they were using up. Ground effect got them off the ground but could not keep them off it without more engine performance. Google the cold laws of winter on Air Florida Flight 90. It's an in depth read, very lengthy, very detailed. It explains how ground effect was a factor in far more accuracy than I can. Sadly youtube does not let me put links into my comments. Have a great holiday!
FO knew there was a problem while taxiing the plane. I would've told the captain just stop and let me off. Just open the doors. The jump ain't that bad. I'll be fine.
If "something aint right" and you have a chance to stay on the ground, then do it. There's no embarrassment to be had in aborting a perfectly good take off if something doesn't seem right. You can always have another go if it turns out you were wrong. Falling out of the sky however is not the way you want to be proved right.
When he said " I KNOW" The man's character was even sounding annoyed at the fact they were about to die because of him. Like the FO is telling him ,,"You killed us."
i think he knew they we re going to die when the pilot didn't abort, i can see in front of me the straigth face of the FO while he said his last words..
Bro, I’ve heard that raindrop sound before about the crash. I heard that from a RUclips plane crash video not this one but a different one and I thought it was some thing but it wasn’t that’s very scary man. I’m pretty shocked. Thank you for letting me know that.😮😮😮😮😮
How does the thrust setting work? Once they set it, does it limit the max thrust when the lever is at full throttle or could they have got more out of it?
/Written recording/ (ENGINES SPOOLING, TAKEOFF SEQUENCE) Captain: It’s Spooled, Real Cold, Real Cold. First Officer: God Look At That Thing. That Doesn’t Seem Right, Does It? Uh, That’s Not Right. Captain: Yeah It Is, There’s Eighty. First Officer: Naw, I Don’t Think It’s Right… First Officer: Maybe it is. Captain: Hundred And Twenty. (SOUND OF STICKSHAKER- CONTINUES UNTIL END OF RECORDING) Captain: Forward, Forward, Easy, We Only Want Five-Hundred… Captain: C’mon Forward… Forward, Just Barely Climb. Captain: Stalling, We’re Falling!! First Officer: We’re Going Down Larry. Captain: I Know! (IMPACT WITH BRIDGE AND FROZEN WATER)
Humans take a lot for granted and dont use what instincts they have left. If a red light is green do you assume all is ok and keep looking forward? NEVER ASSUME or you will assume the position.
I was on a Delta flight that departed about an hour before AF90 that day. Heard about it while waiting in ATL. On turn to final approach into ATL our M80 had hit wake turbulence from a heavy and flipped nearly upside down in an instant. Doubly shaken up.
Sad whereby they had the indications that something was wrong?..should of taxied back to get de iced or was it something else was it not something to do with them reversing the thrusters?..and somehow smothered the engine reading instrumentation with snow and ice thus giving them faulty readings?
0:01 *engine spooling* 0:02 Capt: It's spooled, real cold, real cold 0:06 FO: God, look at that thing. That don't seems right, does it? Uh, that's not right. 0:12 Capt: Yeah it is, there's 80. 0:13 FO: Naw, I don't think it's right.... 0:16 FO: Maybe it is.. 0:18 Capt: Hundred and 20.. 0:25 SOUND OF STICKSHAKER - Continues until end of tape 0:30 Capt: Forward, forward, easy, we only want 500. 0:35 Capt: C'mon forward... Forward, just barely climb 0:44 Capt: STALLING! WERE FALLING! 0:44 AIRCRAFT STALLS - Continues until hit the Potomac River 0:44 FO: WERE GOING DOWN LARRY!! 0:45 Capt: I KNOW!!- 0:46 *impact*
0:25 The way on how the background noise changes immediately as the aircraft struggles to climb somehow felt spliced, and whatever that sound thst sounds like weird "lava pops" during stickshacker is.
what's even crazier is a Passenger was a private pilot and knew they would not make it far. telling his Co worker to assume a crash position which likely saved her life. They couldn't even try to cover it up..A survivor happened to be a pilot who knew this would happen... crazy luck
(engines spooling, take off sequence) Captain:its spooled, real cold, real cold First officer: god, look at that at that thing. that dont seem right, does it? uh. thats not right. Captian: yeah it is, theres eighty First officer: naw, i dont think its right... first officer: maybe it is captian: hundred and twenty (sound pf stickeshacker - continues until end of recording) captian: foward, foward, easy we only want five hundred... captain: c'mon foward... foward, just barely climb captain: stalling! we're falling! first officer: we're going down larry! officer: i know! ( SOUND OF IMPACT )
On a flight from Tac-sea to ohaire my flight was taxiing and they stopped the plane for 20 minutes and de boarded to a new plane after discovering a small mechanical issue. I’d de board 1000 planes before complaining. I’m lucky that I wasn’t with a crew like this in no disrespect. We could’ve taken off and come right back down for all I know
this is huge basic problem w FAA and airlines allow not train not care not recognize evrything w pilots no clue bout cold, snow, ice bc they never lived it before in their life... still today nothing changed to correct it.. just so like Colgan Air crash same w those 2 pilots.. neither from up north knew anything bout winter cold wx flying.. omg smfh unbelievable
“We’re going down Larry..co pilot says it so calmly. He knew they would die before take off Captain takes a lot of heat but they both displayed a complete lack of understanding basic aerodynamic Principles...despite everything they did to sabotage this aircraft..from reverse thrusting at push back..cancelling de icing on taxi. trying to melt ice behind another aircrafts after burn..failing to turn on aircrafts de-icer..despite all of this the aircraft still gets airborne and ascends for at least 7 seconds before the ice build on the wings creates too much drag to create any more lift..it still manages to maintain level flight for 5-6 more seconds...even at the point when the stick starts shaking and the aircraft is begging them for more power the only way she can ..these two pilots for inexplicable reasons spend precious seconds solely focused on trying to keep the nose level while doing nothing with the throttles...if either had applied max power ratios to both engines there is a high probability enough airspeed would have been created to break off the ice on the wings and overcome the stall..co pilot may have had forthcomings about takeoff..he clearly sensed and stated she seemed underpowered on the takeoff roll...he did not need captains permission at any point in this sequence to apply max power..but he never did
@@MareShoop it wasn’t. It’s was a comment that ridiculed a crew that screwed up and criticised them from the easy vantage point of hindsight. It also did it in a condescending and snarky way. It’s particularly pathetic coming from someone who lacks the training and experience to do better.
Fars comment is actually in line with the official NTSB REPORT as to the cause of accident which was a scathing indictment of the pilots and their actions..coincidentally it was also done with “easy vantage of hindsight” what an idiot
These pilots were serious clowns: for fans of "Mayday", this was the flight where they reversed their plane (with ice on the wings, bad idea from the getgo) and then left the plane standing behind another jet for "de-icing". Apparently it was a common (but unapproved by the manufacturer) practice at the time (1982). It didn't work, and there was still ice on the wings when the plane took off. The pilots also failed to utilize the de-icing systems within the plane, ensuring there wouldn't be enough lift to get the plane up in time to avoid the bridge they were crashing into, killing most people on the plane, and several drivers on the bridge. Terrible terrible errors by the pilots.
I'm no airline captain, in fact all I've flown were the C182, TR182, T310R, Bonanza A36 and last the Cirrus SR22T. Never had a First Officer in the right seat, only a spouse, an employee or friend. Well couple of times a retired AA Captain who never told me to go around. But would have if needed.
First officer expressed his concerns, yet they continued with takeoff
@Nik Pirouz No one cares.
.
This story is irritating because the first officer (if you read the flight report) made several points between taxiing, and take off that they shouldn’t fly, and I feel like the sound of his last words were a clear sign of disappointment in the CPT.
Yeah, and the captain's like "I KNOW." What an ass hat.
@@nevelis Literally Captain Obvious in this case
they were using a part power setting for noise abatement. a false EPR reading meant the throttle setting was too low. the pilot flying should have pushed the throttles forward for more power. Thats why the captian was saying forward forward.
@@gigaboat "forward" was referring to the yoke.
@@kewkabe Ok yes thats is most probable . The stick shaker starts 2 secs after V2 and a max height of 350 ft was reached stick forward couldnt save them but toga maybe?
“We’re going down, Larry.”
You can hear the disappointment in his voice when he says that. Dude made so many attempts to make it apparent they were in no condition to take off, only for the captain to disregard it all and end up killing them.
I was a captain of a CRJ-200 (now an FO again) and I always told my FOs to SPEAK UP no matter what! I didn't care what it was. Even if it was about something as simple as a landing light, LET ME KNOW. I am human, far from perfect. The best FOs are the ones who speak up no matter what. I was always happy to listen to them and rethink any decision.
Thank you & all pilots for your dedication & expertise.
Good call the best skippers do.
WM hope you can find your way out of the rj world. I hear it is a pretty rough gig. But at least you are getting to live the dream. I have a buddy flying rich people around in a Phenom 300. Every time he posts on FB I get depressed and super jealous.
@@BiggieTSkinny what are the 3 worst aspects of flying regionals ?
@@dwaynejacobs9558 dunno. pay? schedule? route?
“We’re Going Down Larry” “I Know!” Sent chills down my spine
Crazy how calm and respectful he was but brutal by making it known the consequence of Larry oversight only to have him and that really upset Larry apparently if you go near the crash site some say that you can still hear Larry saying I know waiting for a response from his superior first officer.
the days when First Officers could not challenge the captain. and several times paid with their life.
So sad.
Rip the pilots
@@ThomasWilde3003 the fact ur more interested in the grammar of this comment is a bit disappointing
@@ThomasWilde3003 makes sense
@@ThomasWilde3003 An English teacher would have written “Because I’m AN English teacher…” not “A English teacher.”
"We're going down Larry (and it's your fucking fault)"
I read this comment when he said “Naw I don’t think it is”
Lol excellent
Co pilot has responsibility too when he saw something unsafe. Kind of want airlines pay to have 2 persons in the cockpit
@@aerohk yea
Impact,,,,,,,,, I Know!!!!!
I am an airline captain for a big international airline. I watch those videos for fun and for educational reasons. What I have learned from those RUclips-Videos? When a first officer says: Go Around! ....and you do not .....the average lifespan is 20 seconds. If a first officer says "something is wrong" during take off roll and you do not abort...the average life-span is also 20 seconds.
It would be embarrassing to cancel a takeoff and have to call company, but if you can determine that something was wrong it's definitely worth it
@K Maxx yes you can.
@K Maxx What do you want to tell us with that statement?
@@matthendricks9666 I think he's saying that he's not too familiar with takeoffs.
@@TransistorBased I worked with a major US airline back in 2015. We had a senior Captain on the 752 who performed a high speed abort of the takeoff roll. The brakes and wheels had to be replaced, but this was at a spoke not a hub, and so it took 2 weeks to get equipment out there and repair the bird. The Captain was forced to retire about a month or two later. It was very close to just being a termination and not forced retirement.
I thought that was really fucked up. I later learned maintenance had warned her, before departure, that she'd get an aural alert for some issue and that she should ignore it and continue the take-off because it's ok to fly. When the aural alert sounded she aborted, causing the damage and cancellations. But being a pilot myself, I can say that you don't know what the alerts are until you look at the screen - your instinct is to abort at the sound and figure out what's wrong later.
Anyways, this was a long post to say that there is still to this day a lingering fear of getting the book thrown at you for aborting or ruining the flow. It's nowhere near the level of the 60's, 70's, and 80's, but it's there. I left the airlines; I operate freight and commuter trains for a railroad now, and we have that same lingering fear.
Kudos to passenger Arland Dean Williams Jr. for doing what he could to help the few survivors.
RIP to him and all those lost on that day.
RIP. These travesties stick with you. I haven't been able to get it off my mind in weeks.
👍
he was the 6th survivor who gave up his life vest for someone else, he's a true hero, even if he only saved 1 person. may he be resting in heaven.
The First Officer was right after all
“that’s not right”
he said...
🤣😂🤣😂 were falling no shit Larry
@@dr.feelgood.1330 Its highly disturbing that you are making a joke at the expense of people who suffered untimely deaths. And you call yourself doctor feel good
@@taskforceknight9336 First time on the internet?
It must have sucked to be going down, and knowing you should have trusted your gut. I think when he says "I know", at the very end, its sort of a detached "I told you so".
It was a different time. I talked to an old captain hired in the 1960's once. He said "my job is to teach the first officer how to fly". No...your job is to work WITH the first officer to make sure your flight is conducted safely. The F/O was advocating his point as much as he could in that era. Today, the F/O would be acknowledged. The takeoff would be delayed until BOTH pilots felt good about going. They killed a lot of people in the old days before CRM.
That counts for the US and Europe but there are still places were CRM dosn't work like egypt for example.
It’s either eastern flight 401 or the Tenerife airport disaster that was the catalyst for implementing crm.
@@BritanniaPacific The Tenerife Disaster is hard to follow and complex, CRM would have prevented the take-off because the FO would say something and definitely save a lot of lives, however weather and radio communication as well as spacial disorientation were key factors, for example if the ATC communicated with the pilots and the other way around properly, then the outcome would be the same as with CRM; no disaster. Best to have all the gaps sealed
I worked at the college radio station at Va Tech in Jan 1982.
We had those old, green metal, teletype AP Newswire printers.
When something bad happened the bell would ring 10 times.
It usually never rang. Reagan assassination attempt last time it rang.
I am in the hallway, it starts to ring, and I walked over to the printer and I watched as this bulletin was typed out.
Was this the internet for the early 80s?
the captain sounds like a real piece of work
Larry's last word was yelling at his co-worker
Yeah
✅
I definetly would've thrown some curse words in the last few seconds.
@Rotation Aviation HD There were 5 survivors: 4 passengers & 1 crew member (a flight attendant).
At least that's what I found on 'Wikipedia lol
That’s right. There’s footage of a helicopter rescuing the passengers that managed to get to the icy surface of the Potomac River
Captain' last words "I know" then they die. Pride and haughty spirit before the literal fall.
It’s more like acknowledgment of the fact that nothing could be done about it
They both faced it like MEN. I couldn't imagine.......
RIP to all of them and their families
What should he have said?
With that “I know”, he sounded more frustrated than acknowledged.
@@RJERR yeah and the pilot of the Southwest flight that lost the engine and a passenger a few years back took it like a…what?
So sad....imagine being on that plane expected to be leaving snowy D.C. and headed to sunny Florida only to lose your life in the frozen Potomac River. I remember that day very vividly. It was on the news all night
so sad
"We are going down Larry" "I KNOW!!!" wow, he was angry on the last time...
I hate when the F/O tries to make the right decisions and is overruled and killed along with many other innocents.
Sad because the first officer (who was an Air Force pilot) knew something was wrong, but the captain (who had a shoddy record at best) continued with the takeoff because he was wanted to get out of town with the current snowstorm.
@@sasquatch7234 Getter done
Known as Get-There-Itis.
He got out of town alright..... permanently!
Well he got out of town alright, along with most of the passengers. I'm glad that crew management systems are better now: the captain never should have had the authority to put passengers at grave risk. The wings were iced over and proper procedure hadn't been performed to ensure ALL the ice was gone. Captain was wrong and he should have stood down, but it wasn't even a "thing" back then: they had the final word.
The FO was flying, it was him that continued the takeoff, not the captain.
1st officer being calm And then he says We're going down Larry seconds away from his death The 1st officer is like the most chilling person from seconds away from his death to me
I remember this day. I lived in the DC area and was 13 at the time. The school buses got stuck in the snow and parents had to come to school and pick up their kids. My dad showed up about two hours after school because he had to work. On top of the plane crash, metro rail had a fatal accident that day and DC traffic was at a standstill. The city was in total gridlock until the next day.
I was 9 then in Elementary School in Franconia I remember that day. 40th anniversary today :-(
I will never forget because I was at FSU at a popular bar on a Wednesday night a few hours later and spoke to a friend about the crash. She mentioned her dad was in DC and was heading to FTL but she wasn't worried because he never flew Air Florida.
Turns out, he had hopped on because his other flight had been canceled. She didn't know yet.
😰
🙁
I guess it's a quite terrible memory…☹️
they had the engines at 85 percent thrust because of incorrect gauge readings and they didnt want to damage the engines by going full throttle. I was a jet engine mechanic in the military, after replacing engines we took the aircraft to the runup area and tie it down with chains. Then we ran the engine at several parameters, the last test was the hi-power test, where we push the throttle full forward and ran it for 5 minutes at max thrust. It had to pass the hipower test to be good to return to service. In other words, no matter what the gauges say, running the engines at full power aint going to damage them.
Like they say "power is life" they waited too long to push throttles forward and the engines need time to spool up. When your losing speed and are low to the ground you have milliseconds to make the right decision.
I work for the airlines, the MD-11 actually had a gate on the throttles, if you were in an emergency, you could shove the throttles past the gate for 105% of power!
@@scotthaskin1509 as I hear more about the MDs the name Mad Dog makes more and more sense
I can’t understand not applying full power, knowing full well you are 100% are about to crash
@@Bankable2790 I'm not 100% sure on their reasoning, but I don't think they realized the severity of the situation until it was too late. It sounds like there were noise abatement procedures in place so they had to run at a derated engine pressure. If they thought there was no real danger, I can see why they wouldn't want to break noise regulations and push the engines any harder than they thought would be required. Unfortunately since the engines weren't displaying correctly they didn't realize it had a lot more power to give.
@@TransistorBased Yeah I mean I recognize it is easy for me to sit here and critique
a lot about human behavior to be learned from these recordings. They are very useful and instructive.
i think we've known about fight or flight response for about the past ~200 years this really doesn't provide anything about human psychology that we didn't already know.
@@ChristopherGray00 Nonsense. It's immensely important. That's why they employ cockpit voice recorders - to study the interaction of pilots with the machine; to understand and improve response interactions and airline safety overall.
“Larry we’re going down” right as they like hit the bridge the go responds “I know” how sad :(
From experience, when a Southerner tells you something don't look right. Believe him.
Even at the end Larry had to say he knew they were stalling.. after all the cues that something was wrong
First officer needed to assert himself, I mean he was entitled to save his own life after all.
Another example of why CRM is so important.
Taxi back to de-ice one more time, please.
It was another age chain of command was still much more the norm, look at crashes like BEA548(10 years earlier)... thats before you even consider a whole host of crashes with Korean aircraft all connected with CRM
Actually, back then that it is not correct. The captain was God. Go against him and your career was over.
@@BillSmith-rx9rm Funny my dad tells a story of being a co-pilot back in the 1960s and him thinking his career was over because of questioning a captain's actions(I should add he was correct!), weirdly if included a railway track over a runway!!!!
Boeing and GE ran a mess of tests after this crash using differing levels of suspected wing contamination. In all of them, the plane was capable of climbing out had they simply shoved the throttles to the stops. The EPR readings were wrong because the compressor inlet probe was iced up. It was iced up because they neglected to turn ENG ANTI-ICE on after the engines were started. Additionally, had they looked at N2 and fuel flow the instant they said, "that's not right" they might have either aborted or shoved in the power. Every pilot should know what the N2 and fuel flow should look like at takeoff thrust. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, but I did fly commercially for a long time.
Wait, they had stick shaker and couldn’t climb and they didn’t apply full power? Why?
I fly microlights (a bit, never got the licence just had a lot of lessons) and to me, if I started stalling it’s nose down full power. Why not? I don’t get it
Are you captain hindsight???
I watched the rescue efforts as it happened live on TV. In recent years I have flown into Reagan airport numerous times. Every the plane follows the Potomac River to the runway, I think about this accident.
Very eerie to listen to the last words on this earth of a couple of guys who know they’re about to die!!😞
Such a shame so many people had to die because the captain had an ego issue
A short bio of the flight info, i.e. date, city, weather and what occurred WOULD be helpful for those who do NOT know this accident based solely on it's flight number and airline.
That's what I was thinking. Poor quality from the uploader you literally have to look up each one for an explanation. They don't even do the bare minimum of putting the date in the vid. Lazy..
They can operate a Google search
@@alwaysOPEN4business This its not a video about that, this is a video of the CVR not flight information
idk why but when he said "we are going down larry" larry just got mad and said I KNOW
And Roger Alan Pettit...R.I.P (1950-1982)
The FO really should have trusted his instincts. Something really wasn't right. Rejecting a takeoff when you don't really need to is embarrassing, but continuing with one that's in trouble is not going to have a happy ending.
@@mstewie9718 I agree with you, CRM now means the Captain would likely have aborted the take-off as soon as the FO speaks up that something is wrong (which he did, but not very clearly or with much authority, probably leading the Captain to believe that whatever the problem was it could be solved once they were airborne).
Look, we know the captain made mistakes: big mistakes.
We are all rightly questioning.
But on the other side, who knows what pressures the guy was under. Who knows what the airline culture was? Perhaps he had done the same no issues 10 times before.
Regardless of all of this, he is not here to explain his actions. I am certain if he was here today, he would be very remorseful but he only got one chance. Others may have gotten away with the same.
He has the weight of hundreds of souls on his name. He had a family who loved him.
Let’s recognise he’s a man who made a mistake, but have the compassion to forgive. I know it’s hard but as I say, I am sure if he were here right now, he would be absolutely gutted with grief and regret.
Imagine how his family feel. He made one critical error on one day and now his entire existence is defined by this.
Just saying, don’t be too hard; he didn’t want to die and he didn’t intend to kill all those people.
0:45 this is so sad the first officer was saying goodbye and then was yelled at before death
Not really sad---it was his fault they crashed because he didn't listen to the F/O while they still had time to do something about it.
Why they didn't use full power when they were in a slow climb is a question for the ages.
“We’re going down Larry”
“I know!”
*BOOM*
What a sound bite
Sad But Ironic
The industry learned from this and other accidents resulting in a lot of positive changes in the eighties. One was never hit the ground without first pushing the thrust levers all the way up.
You learn this as a kid biking in the woods. If you get all out of control or wobbly....peddle harder.
@@Frip36 lmao yes, if you try to slow down youd just crash straight towards a tree. What a good analogy
I remember this day so well, I lived nearby in Maryland. Sad day. I know 2 people waiting in traffic to drive over the bridge. 😥
Listen to the first officer!
Another case of subservience costing lives.
What's the answer. Should both flight crew be officially given equal rank/status by airlines ??
RIP
To the 74 passengers and crew of Air Florida Flight 90 and the four people on the ground
As a pilot, if any flight crew member is concerned about the safety of the aircraft they must abort immediately!
If I heard my pilot say “I dont think thats right.” “Well maybe it is?” Then I would just have jumped off the plane.
This model turbo jet gets the thrust it needs at high speed , they were scary in summers hot weak air ....they damaged 1or both engines using thrust reversers which sucked ice into the intake , plus it was icing up again even after deiced
Dave Bar the engines were not damaged at all! the EPR valve was, do to using reverse thrust to back the place from the terminal. So they thought they had the takeoff power needed to go. But since they did not get a true power reading, they didn't have the A/S to stay in the air. They still had 2,200 foot lbs of thrust left., Very sad. Also most Jets take about 30 to 33 seconds to takeoff. It took them 45 seconds to takeoff do to poor runway conditions, very sad.
I always told myself that if I feel there’s something wrong I stop doing it. This video is a good example why it’s an advice everyone should listen to. May everyone involved in that crash rest in peace 🙏🏻
This still is chilling to hear.
That was when Larry knew, he fucked up....
Can anyone hear the Flight Attendants yelling up front. It's muffled but I think they are in the background yelling.
The fo is far more calm than the captain!
How did this still happen after Van Zanten?? If I were a FO I would never again allow a captain to pretty much kill me and everyone else on board
It's easy to say, not easy to do. Think about it, if you are in a job for a number of years but there is somebody you are paired with that has been there many years longer than you, chances are that person is going to know the job inside and out. It is, after all, your goal to be in that job one day. Well, humans make mistakes - and it is clear to everybody the mistake that was made in DC that day. It's sad but like so many tragedies was preventable.
The best I can say is that we LEARN from these awful accidents, we LEARN so they don't happen again. The Tenerife disaster really started people thinking about communication and how to effectively work together in the cockpit - it wasn't the first crash to highlight the need for FOs to speak up and challenge the Captain. Air Florida 90 certainly exposed the need even more; CRM has come a long long way in four decades. The other facet of the Air Florida crash that has improved is deicing procedures. A lot of research has gone into using the right amount and right mixture of glycol for specific weather and temperatures. After deicing, pilots know they can't sit around for too long and allow ice to build up before takeoff, another contributing factor to Air Florida 90. Finally, planes don't rely on the heat from other aircraft engines to deice the planes these days.
A lot of these disasters were caused by the Captains' hubris. The First Officers weren't being listened to or taken seriously.
Back then you will be damned if ur against the captain I guess
The KLM captain from the Tenerife disaster comes to mind.
That impact sound doesn’t sound real but it probably is.
“We’re going down Larry”
“I know!”
Chills down my spy
Why they didn’t firewall the throttles is a mystery to me. From the very beginning of flight training we are taught how to avoid a takeoff stall. The aircraft was healthy from a performance standpoint. Fly the plane, full throttle if necessary. Once you commit to the takeoff there’s no reason to baby the engines. The alternative, obviously, was a departure stall and crash
Different times. There was no CRM back then. It was a Captains airline and the Captain didn't want to damage the engines by pushing them to the stops (no FADEC back then) and having to explain why to the company. It's also likely he didn't know the effects cold had on the EPR readings, nor did it sound like he knew he was flying in ground effect. "We just need to get to 500 (feet)" suggests he thought he could still climb at the current setting.
This crash happened pretty fast honestly.
Well they weren’t sitting in a chair at home with all the facts and reports to hand. They were there and in those few seconds it didn’t occur to them that lack of thrust was the one of several possible issues.
They're probably the reason you're taught that.
@@WestAirAviationground effect? It got to like 380 ft. I have flown microlights and ground effect is like 10 ft. Surely it’s not ground effect at 380ft, it was just momentum running out from the climb?
@@RaferJeffersonIII They only got to that altitude due to the energy they were using up. Ground effect got them off the ground but could not keep them off it without more engine performance.
Google the cold laws of winter on Air Florida Flight 90. It's an in depth read, very lengthy, very detailed. It explains how ground effect was a factor in far more accuracy than I can.
Sadly youtube does not let me put links into my comments.
Have a great holiday!
FO knew there was a problem while taxiing the plane. I would've told the captain just stop and let me off. Just open the doors. The jump ain't that bad. I'll be fine.
If "something aint right" and you have a chance to stay on the ground, then do it. There's no embarrassment to be had in aborting a perfectly good take off if something doesn't seem right. You can always have another go if it turns out you were wrong.
Falling out of the sky however is not the way you want to be proved right.
Another instance of FO more aware than the captain.....
"Stalling! we're falling"
"We're goin down larry"
"i know!"
*boom*
Hearing this made chills go down my spine 😬
When he said " I KNOW"
The man's character was even sounding annoyed at the fact they were about to die because of him. Like the FO is telling him ,,"You killed us."
Same vibes
i think he knew they we re going to die when the pilot didn't abort, i can see in front of me the straigth face of the FO while he said his last words..
Bro, I’ve heard that raindrop sound before about the crash. I heard that from a RUclips plane crash video not this one but a different one and I thought it was some thing but it wasn’t that’s very scary man. I’m pretty shocked. Thank you for letting me know that.😮😮😮😮😮
Captain says I KNOW just as the plane hits the bridge
When I meet you your going to be remembered as a creeAAAK in the night
@@GusWallace umm uh wait so huh wait um
@@BeningignW you are meant for the worms and dirt like my girl in 1991
How does the thrust setting work? Once they set it, does it limit the max thrust when the lever is at full throttle or could they have got more out of it?
You just push it. Push it real good.
"we're going down,Larry"
"I KNOW GOTTVERDAM- *impact
/Written recording/
(ENGINES SPOOLING, TAKEOFF SEQUENCE)
Captain: It’s Spooled, Real Cold, Real Cold.
First Officer: God Look At That Thing. That Doesn’t Seem Right, Does It? Uh, That’s Not Right.
Captain: Yeah It Is, There’s Eighty.
First Officer: Naw, I Don’t Think It’s Right…
First Officer: Maybe it is.
Captain: Hundred And Twenty.
(SOUND OF STICKSHAKER- CONTINUES UNTIL END OF RECORDING)
Captain: Forward, Forward, Easy, We Only Want Five-Hundred…
Captain: C’mon Forward… Forward, Just Barely Climb.
Captain: Stalling, We’re Falling!!
First Officer: We’re Going Down Larry.
Captain: I Know!
(IMPACT WITH BRIDGE AND FROZEN WATER)
as
The ego of the captain wouldn't allow him to take the first Captain's advice.
Not ego, it’s merely because of the pressure put on crews constantly to get things done as fast as they can
@@delivia3474 Definitely also getthereitis...I doubt the last things these pilots wanted to do was sit in the snowstorm for any longer.
We're going down larry. Horrifying
Just awful, the First Officer's voice, haunting...
R.I.P Larry Michael Weathon, age 34 years
Humans take a lot for granted and dont use what instincts they have left.
If a red light is green do you assume all is ok and keep looking forward?
NEVER ASSUME or you will assume the position.
When you hear "the voice" listen to it.
I was on a Delta flight that departed about an hour before AF90 that day. Heard about it while waiting in ATL.
On turn to final approach into ATL our M80 had hit wake turbulence from a heavy and flipped nearly upside down in an instant.
Doubly shaken up.
That must have been uttery terrifying. Glad you made it!!
Airspeed is life, and altitude is life support….when both are exhausted, you die.
Sad whereby they had the indications that something was wrong?..should of taxied back to get de iced or was it something else was it not something to do with them reversing the thrusters?..and somehow smothered the engine reading instrumentation with snow and ice thus giving them faulty readings?
Should’ve* hell who tf taught you English
We're going down larry
I know!
Yeah, that's what he said. Clap clap clap, here's your trophy for saying the exact same thing we just heard.
@Rotation Aviation HD no, they were both killed too
@@knockitofff l
@Smartbursterman2133 L5o They did not survive...
0:01 *engine spooling*
0:02 Capt: It's spooled, real cold, real cold
0:06 FO: God, look at that thing. That don't seems right, does it? Uh, that's not right.
0:12 Capt: Yeah it is, there's 80.
0:13 FO: Naw, I don't think it's right....
0:16 FO: Maybe it is..
0:18 Capt: Hundred and 20..
0:25 SOUND OF STICKSHAKER - Continues until end of tape
0:30 Capt: Forward, forward, easy, we only want 500.
0:35 Capt: C'mon forward... Forward, just barely climb
0:44 Capt: STALLING! WERE FALLING!
0:44 AIRCRAFT STALLS - Continues until hit the Potomac River
0:44 FO: WERE GOING DOWN LARRY!!
0:45 Capt: I KNOW!!-
0:46 *impact*
I remember that day snowing very hard my dad and myself we left work early plus metro train also in a bad accident
This captain is like the captain in wall-E
0:25 The way on how the background noise changes immediately as the aircraft struggles to climb somehow felt spliced, and whatever that sound thst sounds like weird "lava pops" during stickshacker is.
Very sad anti ice not switched on in cold snowy weather R I P lives lost.
That, and the de-icing valve not mixing the proper concentration. Terrible!
what's even crazier is a Passenger was a private pilot and knew they would not make it far. telling his Co worker to assume a crash position which likely saved her life. They couldn't even try to cover it up..A survivor happened to be a pilot who knew this would happen... crazy luck
So sad:(
(engines spooling, take off sequence)
Captain:its spooled, real cold, real cold
First officer: god, look at that at that thing. that dont seem right, does it? uh. thats not right.
Captian: yeah it is, theres eighty
First officer: naw, i dont think its right...
first officer: maybe it is
captian: hundred and twenty
(sound pf stickeshacker - continues until end of recording)
captian: foward, foward, easy we only want five hundred...
captain: c'mon foward... foward, just barely climb
captain: stalling! we're falling!
first officer: we're going down larry!
officer: i know!
( SOUND OF IMPACT )
If I remember correctly, they hit a bridge and landed into the ocean. An officer told them not to fly. Still RIP everyone who died in the crash.
Only 5 souls survived the tragedy.
6 initially
But 5 eventualy.
@@iliashamid8765 Yeah but hyperthermia is a bitch and that man was a hero.
Were Going Down Larry
*I KNOW*
On a flight from Tac-sea to ohaire my flight was taxiing and they stopped the plane for 20 minutes and de boarded to a new plane after discovering a small mechanical issue. I’d de board 1000 planes before complaining. I’m lucky that I wasn’t with a crew like this in no disrespect. We could’ve taken off and come right back down for all I know
You can actually feel the stick shaker when you put your hands In the speaker (mostly works for iphones)
Two warm weather pilots with little to no experience taking off in the winter ignored so many flags and killed many.
this is huge basic problem w FAA and airlines allow not train not care not recognize evrything w pilots no clue bout cold, snow, ice bc they never lived it before in their life... still today nothing changed to correct it.. just so like Colgan Air crash same w those 2 pilots.. neither from up north knew anything bout winter cold wx flying.. omg smfh unbelievable
“We’re going down Larry..co pilot says it so calmly. He knew they would die before take off
Captain takes a lot of heat but they both displayed a complete lack of understanding basic aerodynamic
Principles...despite everything they did to sabotage this aircraft..from reverse thrusting at push back..cancelling de icing on taxi. trying to melt ice behind another aircrafts after burn..failing to turn on aircrafts de-icer..despite all of this the aircraft still gets airborne and ascends for at least 7 seconds before the ice build on the wings creates too much drag to create any more lift..it still manages to maintain level flight for 5-6 more seconds...even at the point when the stick starts shaking and the aircraft is begging them for more power the only way she can ..these two pilots for inexplicable reasons spend precious seconds solely focused on trying to keep the nose level while doing nothing with the throttles...if either had applied max power ratios to both engines there is a high probability enough airspeed would have been created to break off the ice on the wings and overcome the stall..co pilot may have had forthcomings about takeoff..he clearly sensed and stated she seemed underpowered on the takeoff roll...he did not need captains permission at any point in this sequence to apply max power..but he never did
Easy to be Mr.Clever with all the facts and hindsight at your fingertips.
@@peteconrad2077 Pretty snarky reply to a well written comment.
@@MareShoop it wasn’t. It’s was a comment that ridiculed a crew that screwed up and criticised them from the easy vantage point of hindsight. It also did it in a condescending and snarky way. It’s particularly pathetic coming from someone who lacks the training and experience to do better.
Fars comment is actually in line with the official NTSB REPORT as to the cause of accident which was a scathing indictment of the pilots and their actions..coincidentally it was also done with “easy vantage of hindsight” what an idiot
These pilots were serious clowns: for fans of "Mayday", this was the flight where they reversed their plane (with ice on the wings, bad idea from the getgo) and then left the plane standing behind another jet for "de-icing". Apparently it was a common (but unapproved by the manufacturer) practice at the time (1982). It didn't work, and there was still ice on the wings when the plane took off. The pilots also failed to utilize the de-icing systems within the plane, ensuring there wouldn't be enough lift to get the plane up in time to avoid the bridge they were crashing into, killing most people on the plane, and several drivers on the bridge. Terrible terrible errors by the pilots.
We're going down Larry !
No shit sherlock !!
Probably didn't help matters that the pilots had almost no cold weather experience before this crash. A blizzard is a very bad time to learn.
I'm no airline captain, in fact all I've flown were the C182, TR182, T310R, Bonanza A36 and last the Cirrus SR22T. Never had a First Officer in the right seat, only a spouse, an employee or friend. Well couple of times a retired AA Captain who never told me to go around. But would have if needed.
We’re going down Larry “I KNOW!!!!!!!!!”
We're going down Larry..... I know!