Love how you write down the real world data, I think a lot of people are missing this point. Train to the worst case scenario... no tech, no range finder (learn how to mil targets at various ranges), and no ballistic calculator. If you can do that, then everything else is just a cherry on top.
Must say I’m so impressed on all time you spend to do all material and the information provided, and your dedication you have for explaining , thank you and stay safe
I appreciate that Nick. I abandoned the shortened “RUclips format” which I find lacking, and provide the information just like I would teach in person. Makes for longer videos but I think it’s the only right way to do it. Thanks for watching! -Gary
Same here. I can tell you it is well worth the trip to take the long range courses from Paramount Tactical. I went out this summer and planning on going back a couple of times next summer for at least 7 more
Did my tall target test this weekend on my 6.5 Creedmoor, and it was as accurate as I've ever seen. I only moved in 1 mil increments up to the 36". I was using the leupold Mark 5HD 7-35X56 . Thanks for your videos. You taught me a lot ! I'm still trying to understand milrad !
Gary, Thanks for these two videos. Awesome information, and really helpful. I’m just getting back into the long range sport after a 30 year lay off, and for me and for the new shooter this training is awesome! Thanks brother!
My pleasure. That’s what this channel is all about and I’m glad you’re getting value from our content. Make sure to join us live on Wednesdays at 7pm EDT! Thanks, Gary
Just came across your videos. 50 years around rifle shooting and today learned quite a few new things. (it seems that you can teach new trick to an old dog, Jajajaj) Thank you for your time and effort, great instructing skills and glad you take no shortcuts when it comes to share your knowledge. God bless
It is also good practice whether you're testing scope tracking or in competition to dial past and then back down...for example: if you want 5.2 Mils dial 5.4 then back down two clicks. You probably wouldn't need to do this for PRS but many benchrest and F class shooter do especially if you have a scope with 'mushy' turrets.
Wow this is by far the best scope zeroing and mounting video ive ever seen knline i watched the first part awhile ago but just bought another scope so wanted to refresh everything and i really like the target setup and how useful it is to assure your scope is plum. I feel like ive never once sighted a rifle in properly now after seeing this usually i start at 50 get on paper and then move to 100 zero it and i thought that was good. But now i realize i might end up realigning everything ive built for the last 10 years. Love the plum bob method and im gonna get one of the electric levelers. Pretty cool. Really excited to use your target cause that explains why im busting things from 400 yards then after that it starts missing enough its a problem i would bet my scope isnt plum hell i didnt even use a torque wrench i didnt have 1 small enough back then but wow i feel like i just went to school again.
Love your videos, and I learn a lot. I'm not jerking your chain just wanted to get to the facts. Ok say your not tracking true, Example, dead on at 100 yards just say go up 8 mils and your off the line 1.5". To correct that you adjust the canted scope correct? Aren't we going right back to the plumb bob system? This explains using those small levels to set up your scope it's only a baseline for a starting point. Rifle level, plumb bob line at 50 yards minimum should be pretty dang close. It is great for actually checking your elevation adjustment to see any errors. Thanks for your videos, I'm just trying to learn, and hope you take this as a good point. Thanks 👍
I had the same issues on erratic groupings with the Hornady Match for my 6.5PRC. Switched to the Hornady Precision Hunter and the groups shrunk dramatically. Hole in Hole with factory Precision Hunter.
Fantastic content, great knowledge, great teaching ability. But... After watching both parts of your video, I think that everyone should find their OWN line of separation between the headache and distress associated with imperfect scope setting and the pure joy of shooting for which most of us practice this sport. Greetings from Poland!
Bingeing your channel! So glad I got a LRA SendIt From you guys. It really one of the best options. No only can you use it on the rifle but as a tool to correct other mounts as well. Great vid!
Want to say I had the same grouping issues with the Hornady Match 6.5 PRC in my Sako S20 last year. A couple of weeks ago, I bought another box to fireform the brass to reload... and we're talking six, 1/2" three shot groups at 100 yards and one two shot group just under 1/2." Went out to Sportsmans Warehouse and bought another box, and it shot almost exactly the same groups (one three shot group was just a hair bigger than 1/2" and I think that was probably just me). I think that may change by the time I go buy some more factory loaded to become once fired brass, but I was pleasently surprised.
There are a lot of us waiting for that too. I love the one I got during the long Range lvl 1 course. Buts almost full and I need a new one. I guess I’ll have to take another course. Oh darn
I haven't had much luck with hornady factory loads either. We'll see how they work on my 7 prc. I've scrapped hornady on my 30-06 and 6.5 prc. They've both had the same prob you've seen.
We just had terrible results with two lots of Hornady TAP .308 168gr ELD-M. We had always had great results with their A-MAX, but the new stuff has been trash for my team; we are considering switching manufacturers.
to avoid any issues with not having enough negative MOA adjustment, couldn't you put your target upside down? So now you're still aiming at that target and your shot should be down instead of up? In regards to what you say at 7:10
Well, they seem to be correct. I love Hornady but that is indicative of poorly made projectiles. Norma’s bullets seem to handle it just fine. I don’t think they performed super great but Hornady’s performance is atrocious in the 6.5 PRC with 7.5 twist.
@paramounttactical I have not shot the eld Match ammo but have shot the eldx precision hunter and the norma 143gr. Golden target load and have had great results in my tikka roughtech w/ 1:8 twist. The two loads shoot to the same POI out to 600 yrd. I haven't shot them any farther but will shoot out to 1000yrds after I finish corn harvest. For target, training, or life and liberty, the Norma load is hard to beat. In their podcast about the 6.5 PRC, the Hornady crew said an 8 twist should stabilize every 6.5mm bullet currently on the market. I think it's a bullet/twist compatibility problem you're having, not necessarily grain weight. I haven't pulled any bullets to compare them side by side. Thanks for sharing your experience with us!
@paramounttactical what is your velocity with the ELD match? (MVx720)÷twist rate= bullet rpm. 300,000 is the top end limit for an in flight jacket separation. The construction of the eldm bullet may not be able to handle that fast of rotation.
Lots of great info. Have never done a tall target test. I want to order the 90 degree mount for the SendIt level. Should I get the standard or the extended for the seekins and Ep-5? Will definitely be getting some of these targets too wish you guys had some. And sweet laser pointer
Great video. Going to range tomorrow and have to try this tall target test. Bought my first long range scope Arken and have to zero it and try this test. Maybe make video of it to my channel 👌🏼
Be made we know how to make a great video very much appreciate the time and effort you put into this below. In the video you spoke that the MPA barrel was 7.5 twist but on the app it showed an 8 twist. Will that change your elevation?
In the app I was just showing how to do what I was discussing and where/how to make those changes in the app. That profile wasn’t actually for that gun. That profile was for my 6.5 CM rifle. Yes, you want to get the twist rate correct in the app as well. That rifle was a clients gun and I didn’t set up a profile for that gun in my app.
Let me know if my reasoning is right here, but when you input the correction factor into your ballistic app, the app will now tell you correct elevation when dialed and incorrect information if holding for elevation with the reticle right? Just something to keep in mind. Great video, lots of awesome information here. I’ve been mounting with the plumb bob method, I’ll try your technique next and see how it goes with the addition of a plumb bob test after leveling the scope to test reticle to scope alignment before spending the time setting up the tall target only to find out the reticle is off after getting to the range. Same same with you’re technique checking the reticle against your tall target.
That’s correct. If you’re dialing everything, that method will mechanically true your app so that it matches your optic if it doesn’t dial perfectly 1:1. However…. Your reticle will stay at 1:1 even if your turrets are not. Hopefully that makes sense. Thanks for watching! -Gary
Love the channel just getting into using a ballistics app. Usually, I just had my log book. Question regarding corrections on ballistics app. If you're not tracking correctly, like in your example, just on one distance, and you make the correction. Wouldn't it change the impact at all distances? I'm not sure if I'm making sense.
@@PrecisionDavePlumbingMore if your turrets are not tracking correctly it will be a percentage that is off and that percentage will apply to all distances. Does that make sense? Thanks, Gary
@paramounttactical Yes, that is what I was referring to. So if turrets are tracking correctly, just off at one of the distances when tested. You shouldn't change the value on the app? If not, it will change it for all the distances, correct?
@@PrecisionDavePlumbingMore you only do a correction factor as described and demonstrated in the video when you see a discrepancy while doing a tall target test. If you’re just seeing a discrepancy between your data and what your app is saying at a particular distance then you most likely have some bad data typed into your app. OR… you need to true your velocity at distance. Check to make sure the velocity you input into the app is correct, twist rate, height over bore, you have the correct bullet/BC selected and understand that current density altitude that your app is collecting will cause a discrepancy between data collected from previous engagements and what your app is saying.
I purchased some Hornady 6mm Creedmoor brass (May-1-24) and (3) rounds out of a lot of 100cases would not fit the case holder and (1) case had a visible hole in the neck.
What is that yellow level you used that ended up being true? I have the wheeler levels and will have to check it now. I appreciate how you showed to level basically the surface and then compare the turret on the surface to make sure it shows the same level or congruent degree of angle it is off in respect to the surface of the table or your machined block. A crutial check point for sure.
I adjusted that wheeler level to be out of level for demonstration purposes. Even if the wheeler levels are out of level they can be easily adjusted and they are actually quite sensitive/accurate. The yellow level I showed you was a Stabila level. They’re supposed to be very accurate but I’ve had 2 that weren’t so I sent them back to Amazon. Hope that helps. Thanks for watching! -Gary
I just bought a savage 110 high country in 6.5 prc and haven’t had the results I hoped to. I figured it was just not broken in enough, or maybe and still possibly the muzzle brake needs to be timed. Could be a few things as well as just me being a novice, but my mark II in .22lr was grouping better at 100 yrds. My question is do you think the issue with these Hornady ELD cartridges is the brass, powder or bullets? Or a combination of these? And do you think I can salvage the 200 rounds of this ammo I just ordered a few days ago if I get into reloading them?
Who knows what the problem component could be. Fact is Hornady 6.5 PRC is not a good option. I would reload from the ground up. Try the brass and see what happens. The cartridge and the rifles have the potential, it’s just a matter if dialing in the ammo. Thanks for watching! -Gary
I agree 100% with this testing but I also know that 99.9% of the time that people have meaningful errors with the ballistic apps is because they aren’t using them properly. If you don’t have your weather conditions (let’s ignore wind for this conversation) and muzzle velocity for that exact location at that time, then the app gives you a best guess. Enter the inputs properly and it’s going to be within a MOA if your gun is setup properly and you are using the same lot of ammo or loads Use 4DOF properly and it’s gonna be balls on with the proper inputs
Well maybe, but 99% of shooters don’t confirm their optic is mounted properly, confirm the reticle is plumb inside the optic, or confirm tracking. I’d bet 25% or greater of that 99% have one of those 3 issues to some degree. Long range is about removing variables and yet this fairly important aspect that is fairly easy to do is completely overlooked or thrown out as even being needed. People spend hours loading a couple rounds, thousands of dollars on new gear to be more precise, but skip this obvious, free, and easy step. Pretty silly.
@@paramounttactical I have to agree with you on the check for the reticle is plumb in the optic. That one is something I never hear people mention that they checked.
I've been doing testing of various Hornady Match and getting the same results you describe. Super inconsistent. Like 175FPS extreme spreads. Hornady just said that it must be my rifle doesn't like it. I have heard this same results over and over even by well-respected members of the shooting community. I tried it in various cartridges and calibers and same result. It used to be good stuff. These days? I don't touch it.
@@bosshog340 the last couple of lots we got in for testing and ultimately used in our XP Long Range Academy courses have been really good. I think there’s a lot of sub par Hornady ammo still floating around from Covid production days. I will add I’ve been testing projectiles for reloads and for 6.5 CM I get much better results out of Berger Hybrid Target bullets over ELDM and ATIP. I also believe both 6.5 CM and PRC perform better with projectiles around 140gr compared to 147 or into the 150s. If you’re using those heavier projectiles go down in weight to around 140 and I’d stay away from (or at least test to see) anything 145 or heavier. Thanks for watching! -Gary
@@paramounttactical Thanks for your reply. I agree 100% about the 140 being much better for the Creedmoor than the heavier 147. I even think there may be a sweet spot in the 130 range however, like you mentioned, I also have had amazing results using Berger bullets. That goes for just about any cartridge I shoot for that matter including Berger factory ammo. I shot an elk last season at 1120 yards with a 300gr Berger Elite Hunter (handload in a 338 Edge). Performed beautifully. I think you're right about the covid days hurting their quality. I had read that they swapped powder a while back also which significantly neutered the speeds that were printed on the box. Instead of saying so, they just left the velocities as printed. It's gonna be a while before I am back in Hornady's corner.
If you have a basic scope with no turrets and no hold offs or a prisms scope or red dot what is the best way to shoot the tall target test? Would you change your hold point to the top of the target and move your gun back in 100 yard increments and track the impacts drop down the tall target line?
At the 20 minute mark, it looks like if you draw a line through your shots, you get a straight line. Wouldn't that indicate your electronic level could favor a rightward lean?
You’d have to shoot groups to come to any conclusion. I was low on ammo and quite frankly smoked. By the time I started shooting I had been on range for over 5hrs with setup and different shots/takes. That gun with that ammo was about a 1/2- 5/8 MOA combination. The furthest from center any of the clean shots were was .25. So that’s well within the precision capabilities of that rifle/ammo and about what I’d expect to see on one side of center line or other. But as I stated, you need at least a 3rd group to make any specific determination. If there was real cant built in at the level or in optic, at the furthest end we would see a much more significant deviation from center. The intent of this video was to show you how to perform the test so don’t get caught up in the results of this. Conduct the test on your rifle/setup and analyze that. Thanks for watching! -Gary
Question, if your laser finder is off a few yards, but you use a laser finder to range, would it benefit you to zero with the distance your rangefinder outputs?
If your rangefinder is off by more than +/- 2 yards at 100, you need a new rangefinder. But no, I’d do my best to zero/tall target at 100yds and get as close as I can. The problem is with a rangefinder being “off” is you don’t know if it’s linear. Is it 2 yards for every 100 (2%) or does it get worse with range? Off 2 yards at 100 but off 25 yards at 300, then off 75 yards at 600… I think it’s good advice to follow the principles and not adjust your process to accommodate a faulty piece of gear. That’s how we introduce additional variables.
Does it matter what power your scope is on? I don’t think it would matter personally but I’ve heard people say moving power changes POI. I think they have crap scopes if it changes POI right? Lots of good info here. I’ve never heard of a long target until now. Thanks!
Question. If your scope is Mil and you’re using a mil target, do you still set the target to 100 yds away from scope turret? Or do you set it up 100 meters away to conduct this test?
That depends on how the target is designed to be used. Understand that a 1 Mil is 1 Mil at all distances so it doesn’t matter if it’s 100yds or 100 meters. Now if you buy a commercial target and it’s meant to be shot at 100yds then 1 mil will equal 3.6” @ 100 yards. If you shoot it at 100 meters 1 mil will equal 10 CM or 3.94” On this target, mils are represented at 3.6” intervals so you know it’s meant to be shot at 100 yards. If you make your own target you can keep those measurements in mind and determine if you’d like to shoot it at 100yds or 100 meters.
That depends on how the target is designed to be used. Understand that a 1 Mil is 1 Mil at all distances so it doesn’t matter if it’s 100yds or 100 meters. Now if you buy a commercial target and it’s meant to be shot at 100yds then 1 mil will equal 3.6” @ 100 yards. If you shoot it at 100 meters 1 mil will equal 10 CM or 3.94” On this target, mils are represented at 3.6” intervals so you know it’s meant to be shot at 100 yards. If you make your own target you can keep those measurements in mind and determine if you’d like to shoot it at 100yds or 100 meters.
my most expensive bushnell scope of the 3 ive got , the reticle and the turret or base of the scope not level . but i start by installing a buble ring on my scope , i level him to my reticle , and after i instal my scope while leveling my scope buble ring ( level with my reticle ) with my picatinny rail , do you still think my elevation will go side way ? Thanks , Dany
@ ok i see , cause there is a " major " difference , and its the engage 6-24 with the 30 moa dot reticle suppose to be a " target " scope . At 800$ cad , supposed to be straight . My 2 others cheaper bushnell seems petty straight to me . I will send them back , and with a flash light you can see what look like full of dust or powder inside , and its brand new never been outside yet . That one made in china , seems like a factory problem . thanks 👌✌️
@@jasonsponsler21 nah, think micrometer vs tape measure. if you are cutting a 2x4 a tape measure is fine. but if you are talking about thousands of an inch, you need that micrometer. MIL is like that. its large and easy to use. An honestly if a person/rifle can't shoot precise enough to see the difference when they move the point of impact it doesnt matter. I just so happens that i do, so MOA it is. My entire target is only 5 inches at 1k. a 3.6 in move per click means i can almost completely move past it. Now, when im shooting the big 20 inch steel gong at 1k, i could care less if moa or mil. Frankly, shooting steel at any range MIL is fine. Also, i was thinking the other day about people saying "in the real world" it matters. Well, this is my real world. Im not a spec ops sniper in afghanistan. Neither are the 99% of americans learning to shoot long range. My assumption is that you arent either. Im just some old fat Marine that likes to shoot little groups at long distances. I guess if its time to scream "wolverines" ill take a MIL reticle scope off someone that doesnt need it anymore and keep on rolling lol.
Lmao. You need to work on your listening comprehension. I NEVER said plumb lines don’t work. That’s like saying gravity doesn’t work. I said using a plumb line to level your optic isn’t good because reticles can be out of plumb in the optic. If you level an optic that was manufactured with the defect of an out of plumb reticle that method masks that problem and your optic will never track accurately and it’s difficult to diagnose. It never fails to surprise me how people can completely disconnect what I actually say and what they hear. You need to listen better and understand that context is important.
@@paramounttactical 6:45 I missed it when you said "Now if you don't want to shoot this," and you start talking about moving the reticle without firing but just watching it move. I didn't know you could do that, so I was confused.
@@paramounttactical my bad, I mean what is the name of the range you’re shooting at. I normally shoot at Peacemaker but i like the looks of the range you’re on.
@@ChicagoHOG27 MOA isn’t “more precise” as I cover in depth in my MOA Sucks Part II video. MIL can do everything MOA can do and do it better. MIL can also do many things that MOA can’t do as well. Those are just facts MOA users can’t seem to grasp. MIL is faster, easier to learn, and more efficient. But… some people shoot in a way they don’t need that. Shooting at one target, at one distance, with no time constraint, then I guess MOA is all you need. 🤷♂️
I don’t think your comprehension skills are all that great. If you use a plumb line to level an optic, it will mask a reticle out of plumb. It’s like I’m teaching Joe Biden long range here…🤷♂️
Love how you write down the real world data, I think a lot of people are missing this point. Train to the worst case scenario... no tech, no range finder (learn how to mil targets at various ranges), and no ballistic calculator. If you can do that, then everything else is just a cherry on top.
Must say I’m so impressed on all time you spend to do all material and the information provided, and your dedication you have for explaining , thank you and stay safe
I appreciate that Nick. I abandoned the shortened “RUclips format” which I find lacking, and provide the information just like I would teach in person. Makes for longer videos but I think it’s the only right way to do it.
Thanks for watching!
-Gary
Just getting into long range shooting. Your videos made it a lot easier for me to understand
Same here. I can tell you it is well worth the trip to take the long range courses from Paramount Tactical. I went out this summer and planning on going back a couple of times next summer for at least 7 more
Did my tall target test this weekend on my 6.5 Creedmoor, and it was as accurate as I've ever seen. I only moved in 1 mil increments up to the 36". I was using the leupold Mark 5HD 7-35X56 . Thanks for your videos. You taught me a lot ! I'm still trying to understand milrad !
Gary, Thanks for these two videos. Awesome information, and really helpful. I’m just getting back into the long range sport after a 30 year lay off, and for me and for the new shooter this training is awesome! Thanks brother!
My pleasure. That’s what this channel is all about and I’m glad you’re getting value from our content. Make sure to join us live on Wednesdays at 7pm EDT!
Thanks,
Gary
Just came across your videos. 50 years around rifle shooting and today learned quite a few new things. (it seems that you can teach new trick to an old dog, Jajajaj)
Thank you for your time and effort, great instructing skills and glad you take no shortcuts when it comes to share your knowledge. God bless
Measuring from turrets!!! THANK YOU. I’ve wanted to know this answer for a long time.
Does it really mater if is from the turrets or front glass? The difference won't be noticeable in my opinion.
True. But I was wondering if it was measured from the barrel. But again it’s splitting hairs.
@cz503 nah it won’t matter.
Very interesting Gary you do a great job explaining Tall Target Test. I have to commend you for that,Outstanding my man!!
i do like that target, time saver. i usually just draw the same or a 20 moa box thing to verify real quick. then load development starts....
It is also good practice whether you're testing scope tracking or in competition to dial past and then back down...for example: if you want 5.2 Mils dial 5.4 then back down two clicks. You probably wouldn't need to do this for PRS but many benchrest and F class shooter do especially if you have a scope with 'mushy' turrets.
Same exact experience with the 6.5 PRC ammo. Hornady was very inconsistent. Started using the Norma and it's so much better.
Wow this is by far the best scope zeroing and mounting video ive ever seen knline i watched the first part awhile ago but just bought another scope so wanted to refresh everything and i really like the target setup and how useful it is to assure your scope is plum. I feel like ive never once sighted a rifle in properly now after seeing this usually i start at 50 get on paper and then move to 100 zero it and i thought that was good. But now i realize i might end up realigning everything ive built for the last 10 years. Love the plum bob method and im gonna get one of the electric levelers. Pretty cool. Really excited to use your target cause that explains why im busting things from 400 yards then after that it starts missing enough its a problem i would bet my scope isnt plum hell i didnt even use a torque wrench i didnt have 1 small enough back then but wow i feel like i just went to school again.
Love your videos, and I learn a lot. I'm not jerking your chain just wanted to get to the facts. Ok say your not tracking true, Example, dead on at 100 yards just say go up 8 mils and your off the line 1.5". To correct that you adjust the canted scope correct? Aren't we going right back to the plumb bob system? This explains using those small levels to set up your scope it's only a baseline for a starting point. Rifle level, plumb bob line at 50 yards minimum should be pretty dang close. It is great for actually checking your elevation adjustment to see any errors. Thanks for your videos, I'm just trying to learn, and hope you take this as a good point. Thanks 👍
I had the same issues on erratic groupings with the Hornady Match for my 6.5PRC. Switched to the Hornady Precision Hunter and the groups shrunk dramatically. Hole in Hole with factory Precision Hunter.
Damn good information! I will be hitting the range next week and will try out what I hoped I've learned. Thanks.
Excellent information Gary.
Fantastic content, great knowledge, great teaching ability. But...
After watching both parts of your video, I think that everyone should find their OWN line of separation between the headache and distress associated with imperfect scope setting and the pure joy of shooting for which most of us practice this sport. Greetings from Poland!
I have some of those us optics targets and the bottom and right side squares are smaller so use a tape measure.
Lots of great info for dialing in. Thank you for taking the time to put this out for us.
Bingeing your channel! So glad I got a LRA SendIt From you guys. It really one of the best options. No only can you use it on the rifle but as a tool to correct other mounts as well. Great vid!
Want to say I had the same grouping issues with the Hornady Match 6.5 PRC in my Sako S20 last year. A couple of weeks ago, I bought another box to fireform the brass to reload... and we're talking six, 1/2" three shot groups at 100 yards and one two shot group just under 1/2." Went out to Sportsmans Warehouse and bought another box, and it shot almost exactly the same groups (one three shot group was just a hair bigger than 1/2" and I think that was probably just me). I think that may change by the time I go buy some more factory loaded to become once fired brass, but I was pleasently surprised.
When are we going to see a Paramount Tactical Data Book?? Great video, Gary!
There are a lot of us waiting for that too. I love the one I got during the long Range lvl 1 course. Buts almost full and I need a new one. I guess I’ll have to take another course. Oh darn
I haven't had much luck with hornady factory loads either. We'll see how they work on my 7 prc. I've scrapped hornady on my 30-06 and 6.5 prc. They've both had the same prob you've seen.
Great content… Thank You for sharing. We appreciate ya. God Bless
My 6.5 likes Hornady Precision Hunter. New to the channel, I like it here. tx
We just had terrible results with two lots of Hornady TAP .308 168gr ELD-M. We had always had great results with their A-MAX, but the new stuff has been trash for my team; we are considering switching manufacturers.
to avoid any issues with not having enough negative MOA adjustment, couldn't you put your target upside down? So now you're still aiming at that target and your shot should be down instead of up? In regards to what you say at 7:10
I really appreciate your scope mounting and long range precision videos. Thank you!
Great video, very informative, thank you.
Awesome... No turrets are exact either and there is a way to figure out exactly what you're turrets are turning each click and can be even more exact
Yeah, I cover that at the end.
@@paramounttactical awesome not many people are talking about a lot of those things I am still watching my kids got me away from the video last night
Hornady says a tighter than 1:8 twist could negatively impact group dispersion.
Well, they seem to be correct. I love Hornady but that is indicative of poorly made projectiles. Norma’s bullets seem to handle it just fine. I don’t think they performed super great but Hornady’s performance is atrocious in the 6.5 PRC with 7.5 twist.
@paramounttactical I have not shot the eld Match ammo but have shot the eldx precision hunter and the norma 143gr. Golden target load and have had great results in my tikka roughtech w/ 1:8 twist. The two loads shoot to the same POI out to 600 yrd. I haven't shot them any farther but will shoot out to 1000yrds after I finish corn harvest. For target, training, or life and liberty, the Norma load is hard to beat. In their podcast about the 6.5 PRC, the Hornady crew said an 8 twist should stabilize every 6.5mm bullet currently on the market. I think it's a bullet/twist compatibility problem you're having, not necessarily grain weight. I haven't pulled any bullets to compare them side by side. Thanks for sharing your experience with us!
I’ve had good results with the Hornady Match ammo with my 6.5PRC. But my Seekins is a 1:8 twist. I will definitely try the Norma and see what happens
@@fattigla I completely agree with your conclusion.
@paramounttactical what is your velocity with the ELD match? (MVx720)÷twist rate= bullet rpm. 300,000 is the top end limit for an in flight jacket separation. The construction of the eldm bullet may not be able to handle that fast of rotation.
Thank you so much for the video. Are you still doing the online classes
Awesome Awesome content! Thanks for the great info!
Phenomenal!! Thank you!!
Lots of great info. Have never done a tall target test. I want to order the 90 degree mount for the SendIt level. Should I get the standard or the extended for the seekins and Ep-5? Will definitely be getting some of these targets too wish you guys had some. And sweet laser pointer
Extended
Sweet thank you
Great video. Going to range tomorrow and have to try this tall target test. Bought my first long range scope Arken and have to zero it and try this test. Maybe make video of it to my channel 👌🏼
Awesome. Great video. 👍
Be made we know how to make a great video very much appreciate the time and effort you put into this below. In the video you spoke that the MPA barrel was 7.5 twist but on the app it showed an 8 twist. Will that change your elevation?
In the app I was just showing how to do what I was discussing and where/how to make those changes in the app. That profile wasn’t actually for that gun. That profile was for my 6.5 CM rifle. Yes, you want to get the twist rate correct in the app as well.
That rifle was a clients gun and I didn’t set up a profile for that gun in my app.
Question for you. In the updated AB quantum app, are the correction factors input into the SSF fields?
Let me know if my reasoning is right here, but when you input the correction factor into your ballistic app, the app will now tell you correct elevation when dialed and incorrect information if holding for elevation with the reticle right? Just something to keep in mind. Great video, lots of awesome information here.
I’ve been mounting with the plumb bob method, I’ll try your technique next and see how it goes with the addition of a plumb bob test after leveling the scope to test reticle to scope alignment before spending the time setting up the tall target only to find out the reticle is off after getting to the range. Same same with you’re technique checking the reticle against your tall target.
That’s correct. If you’re dialing everything, that method will mechanically true your app so that it matches your optic if it doesn’t dial perfectly 1:1. However…. Your reticle will stay at 1:1 even if your turrets are not.
Hopefully that makes sense.
Thanks for watching!
-Gary
Love the channel just getting into using a ballistics app. Usually, I just had my log book. Question regarding corrections on ballistics app. If you're not tracking correctly, like in your example, just on one distance, and you make the correction. Wouldn't it change the impact at all distances? I'm not sure if I'm making sense.
@@PrecisionDavePlumbingMore if your turrets are not tracking correctly it will be a percentage that is off and that percentage will apply to all distances.
Does that make sense?
Thanks,
Gary
@paramounttactical Yes, that is what I was referring to. So if turrets are tracking correctly, just off at one of the distances when tested. You shouldn't change the value on the app? If not, it will change it for all the distances, correct?
@@PrecisionDavePlumbingMore you only do a correction factor as described and demonstrated in the video when you see a discrepancy while doing a tall target test.
If you’re just seeing a discrepancy between your data and what your app is saying at a particular distance then you most likely have some bad data typed into your app. OR… you need to true your velocity at distance.
Check to make sure the velocity you input into the app is correct, twist rate, height over bore, you have the correct bullet/BC selected and understand that current density altitude that your app is collecting will cause a discrepancy between data collected from previous engagements and what your app is saying.
I purchased some Hornady 6mm Creedmoor brass (May-1-24) and (3) rounds out of a lot of 100cases would not fit the case holder and (1) case had a visible hole in the neck.
Good Data. New subscriber.
👍👍
What is that yellow level you used that ended up being true? I have the wheeler levels and will have to check it now. I appreciate how you showed to level basically the surface and then compare the turret on the surface to make sure it shows the same level or congruent degree of angle it is off in respect to the surface of the table or your machined block. A crutial check point for sure.
I adjusted that wheeler level to be out of level for demonstration purposes. Even if the wheeler levels are out of level they can be easily adjusted and they are actually quite sensitive/accurate.
The yellow level I showed you was a Stabila level. They’re supposed to be very accurate but I’ve had 2 that weren’t so I sent them back to Amazon.
Hope that helps.
Thanks for watching!
-Gary
@@paramounttactical
Thank you brother, appreciate what you do.
I just bought a savage 110 high country in 6.5 prc and haven’t had the results I hoped to. I figured it was just not broken in enough, or maybe and still possibly the muzzle brake needs to be timed. Could be a few things as well as just me being a novice, but my mark II in .22lr was grouping better at 100 yrds.
My question is do you think the issue with these Hornady ELD cartridges is the brass, powder or bullets? Or a combination of these? And do you think I can salvage the 200 rounds of this ammo I just ordered a few days ago if I get into reloading them?
Who knows what the problem component could be. Fact is Hornady 6.5 PRC is not a good option. I would reload from the ground up. Try the brass and see what happens. The cartridge and the rifles have the potential, it’s just a matter if dialing in the ammo.
Thanks for watching!
-Gary
Great video! 👍
I agree 100% with this testing but I also know that 99.9% of the time that people have meaningful errors with the ballistic apps is because they aren’t using them properly.
If you don’t have your weather conditions (let’s ignore wind for this conversation) and muzzle velocity for that exact location at that time, then the app gives you a best guess. Enter the inputs properly and it’s going to be within a MOA if your gun is setup properly and you are using the same lot of ammo or loads
Use 4DOF properly and it’s gonna be balls on with the proper inputs
Well maybe, but 99% of shooters don’t confirm their optic is mounted properly, confirm the reticle is plumb inside the optic, or confirm tracking. I’d bet 25% or greater of that 99% have one of those 3 issues to some degree.
Long range is about removing variables and yet this fairly important aspect that is fairly easy to do is completely overlooked or thrown out as even being needed. People spend hours loading a couple rounds, thousands of dollars on new gear to be more precise, but skip this obvious, free, and easy step. Pretty silly.
@@paramounttactical I have to agree with you on the check for the reticle is plumb in the optic. That one is something I never hear people mention that they checked.
I've been doing testing of various Hornady Match and getting the same results you describe. Super inconsistent. Like 175FPS extreme spreads. Hornady just said that it must be my rifle doesn't like it. I have heard this same results over and over even by well-respected members of the shooting community. I tried it in various cartridges and calibers and same result. It used to be good stuff. These days? I don't touch it.
@@bosshog340 the last couple of lots we got in for testing and ultimately used in our XP Long Range Academy courses have been really good. I think there’s a lot of sub par Hornady ammo still floating around from Covid production days.
I will add I’ve been testing projectiles for reloads and for 6.5 CM I get much better results out of Berger Hybrid Target bullets over ELDM and ATIP.
I also believe both 6.5 CM and PRC perform better with projectiles around 140gr compared to 147 or into the 150s. If you’re using those heavier projectiles go down in weight to around 140 and I’d stay away from (or at least test to see) anything 145 or heavier.
Thanks for watching!
-Gary
@@paramounttactical Thanks for your reply. I agree 100% about the 140 being much better for the Creedmoor than the heavier 147. I even think there may be a sweet spot in the 130 range however, like you mentioned, I also have had amazing results using Berger bullets. That goes for just about any cartridge I shoot for that matter including Berger factory ammo. I shot an elk last season at 1120 yards with a 300gr Berger Elite Hunter (handload in a 338 Edge). Performed beautifully. I think you're right about the covid days hurting their quality. I had read that they swapped powder a while back also which significantly neutered the speeds that were printed on the box. Instead of saying so, they just left the velocities as printed. It's gonna be a while before I am back in Hornady's corner.
Can a tall target test be done at 50 yd if you divide everything by two? I shoot air rifles and 50 yards is where we site in!
Can you Plz Tell me Why ,if the scope hast much more elevation in the turrets, we only use 10 Mil for the Tracking Test?
I like your videos.
If you have a basic scope with no turrets and no hold offs or a prisms scope or red dot what is the best way to shoot the tall target test? Would you change your hold point to the top of the target and move your gun back in 100 yard increments and track the impacts drop down the tall target line?
There’s no point in shooting a tall target test with an optic that has no turrets.
What about mrad?
At the 20 minute mark, it looks like if you draw a line through your shots, you get a straight line. Wouldn't that indicate your electronic level could favor a rightward lean?
You’d have to shoot groups to come to any conclusion. I was low on ammo and quite frankly smoked. By the time I started shooting I had been on range for over 5hrs with setup and different shots/takes.
That gun with that ammo was about a 1/2- 5/8 MOA combination. The furthest from center any of the clean shots were was .25. So that’s well within the precision capabilities of that rifle/ammo and about what I’d expect to see on one side of center line or other. But as I stated, you need at least a 3rd group to make any specific determination.
If there was real cant built in at the level or in optic, at the furthest end we would see a much more significant deviation from center.
The intent of this video was to show you how to perform the test so don’t get caught up in the results of this.
Conduct the test on your rifle/setup and analyze that.
Thanks for watching!
-Gary
I have one of those levels and have seen several used and none of them have been off at all
Please advise with specifics regarding doing a tall target test for 22LR.
A walk through with specifics would be greatly appreciated.
I never seen that target before how do get some
I cover that in the first few minutes of video.
Already ordered some. Wish I could have gotten directly from paramount.
Question, if your laser finder is off a few yards, but you use a laser finder to range, would it benefit you to zero with the distance your rangefinder outputs?
If your rangefinder is off by more than +/- 2 yards at 100, you need a new rangefinder. But no, I’d do my best to zero/tall target at 100yds and get as close as I can.
The problem is with a rangefinder being “off” is you don’t know if it’s linear. Is it 2 yards for every 100 (2%) or does it get worse with range? Off 2 yards at 100 but off 25 yards at 300, then off 75 yards at 600…
I think it’s good advice to follow the principles and not adjust your process to accommodate a faulty piece of gear. That’s how we introduce additional variables.
@ sweet I subbed.
Does it matter what power your scope is on? I don’t think it would matter personally but I’ve heard people say moving power changes POI. I think they have crap scopes if it changes POI right?
Lots of good info here. I’ve never heard of a long target until now. Thanks!
Doesn’t matter magnification.
Thanks for watching!
-Gary
Question. If your scope is Mil and you’re using a mil target, do you still set the target to 100 yds away from scope turret? Or do you set it up 100 meters away to conduct this test?
That depends on how the target is designed to be used. Understand that a 1 Mil is 1 Mil at all distances so it doesn’t matter if it’s 100yds or 100 meters. Now if you buy a commercial target and it’s meant to be shot at 100yds then 1 mil will equal 3.6” @ 100 yards. If you shoot it at 100 meters 1 mil will equal 10 CM or 3.94”
On this target, mils are represented at 3.6” intervals so you know it’s meant to be shot at 100 yards.
If you make your own target you can keep those measurements in mind and determine if you’d like to shoot it at 100yds or 100 meters.
Quick question... Shouldn't the mill target be at 100 meters and not yards?
That depends on how the target is designed to be used. Understand that a 1 Mil is 1 Mil at all distances so it doesn’t matter if it’s 100yds or 100 meters. Now if you buy a commercial target and it’s meant to be shot at 100yds then 1 mil will equal 3.6” @ 100 yards. If you shoot it at 100 meters 1 mil will equal 10 CM or 3.94”
On this target, mils are represented at 3.6” intervals so you know it’s meant to be shot at 100 yards.
If you make your own target you can keep those measurements in mind and determine if you’d like to shoot it at 100yds or 100 meters.
@@paramounttactical Thank you for the clarification! Have a wonderful weekend!
my most expensive bushnell scope of the 3 ive got , the reticle and the turret or base of the scope not level .
but i start by installing a buble ring on my scope , i level him to my reticle , and after i instal my scope while leveling my scope buble ring ( level with my reticle ) with my picatinny rail , do you still think my elevation will go side way ?
Thanks ,
Dany
Just depends on how unplumb it is to the scope body. Bushnell would likely fix it or replace it if you contact them.
@ ok i see , cause there is a " major " difference , and its the engage 6-24 with the 30 moa dot reticle suppose to be a " target " scope . At 800$ cad , supposed to be straight . My 2 others cheaper bushnell seems petty straight to me . I will send them back , and with a flash light you can see what look like full of dust or powder inside , and its brand new never been outside yet . That one made in china , seems like a factory problem .
thanks 👌✌️
@qaudit1612 yes. Send back my dude!
You ain't meeting me in person! You're bigger than me
Might be a dumb question. But can you do this test to test a plane Jane 1-6 LPVO with a BDC?
@@Justin.Brown723 it’s not dumb at all. And yes you can, and you should!
@ thank you sir
@ just did my first tall test after watching your video and wow! It’s awesome to get that kinda feed back on your equipment.
@ awesome! It gives you confidence in your gear and/or shows you what you need to fix.
Thanks,
Gary
Thanks!
What app are you using for ballistic calculations?
What shooting mat is that?
Looks like the Midway mat I have
Thank you ..)
MOA Optics!? htf that thing make it out of quality control without a MIL reticle?
I wondered that myself. 🤔
They let the handicapped workers put a couple out a year so they feel important. They know there are handicapped people that will buy them.😂
@@jasonsponsler21 LMAO, thats actually a pretty good one. Of course, MOA people are the ones that are ok using numbers larger then 10.
@@McgSpookyou mean they enjoy working harder for a lower standard of output. Got it. 😂
@@jasonsponsler21 nah, think micrometer vs tape measure. if you are cutting a 2x4 a tape measure is fine. but if you are talking about thousands of an inch, you need that micrometer. MIL is like that. its large and easy to use. An honestly if a person/rifle can't shoot precise enough to see the difference when they move the point of impact it doesnt matter. I just so happens that i do, so MOA it is. My entire target is only 5 inches at 1k. a 3.6 in move per click means i can almost completely move past it. Now, when im shooting the big 20 inch steel gong at 1k, i could care less if moa or mil. Frankly, shooting steel at any range MIL is fine. Also, i was thinking the other day about people saying "in the real world" it matters. Well, this is my real world. Im not a spec ops sniper in afghanistan. Neither are the 99% of americans learning to shoot long range. My assumption is that you arent either. Im just some old fat Marine that likes to shoot little groups at long distances. I guess if its time to scream "wolverines" ill take a MIL reticle scope off someone that doesnt need it anymore and keep on rolling lol.
Swedish stuff (Norma) is the best. 😁
Another Great video Gary. Thanks again. (MOA SUCKS)
Plumline??? You said on your other video that plumlines don't work???
Lmao. You need to work on your listening comprehension. I NEVER said plumb lines don’t work. That’s like saying gravity doesn’t work. I said using a plumb line to level your optic isn’t good because reticles can be out of plumb in the optic. If you level an optic that was manufactured with the defect of an out of plumb reticle that method masks that problem and your optic will never track accurately and it’s difficult to diagnose.
It never fails to surprise me how people can completely disconnect what I actually say and what they hear. You need to listen better and understand that context is important.
Except that you really don't want to put your gun in a vise. All that recoil has to go somewhere, and it will definitely go to your scope internals.
I don’t believe I ever said anything about putting a rifle in a vise and shooting it. I would never recommend that.
@@paramounttactical 6:45 I missed it when you said "Now if you don't want to shoot this," and you start talking about moving the reticle without firing but just watching it move. I didn't know you could do that, so I was confused.
What range were shooting at?
100 yds
@@paramounttactical my bad, I mean what is the name of the range you’re shooting at. I normally shoot at Peacemaker but i like the looks of the range you’re on.
@@JayD_113 it’s not public. It’s Summit Point Training Facility which is where we have our shop and hold all of our courses.
Your erratic match grade Hornady ammo HAS "COVID"....
Scope manufactures are shaking in there boots!!! ha
10 cm per mil @100m. And this is why Mils are better 😂
One of a 100 reasons.
So, are we loving MOA again, or is it the devil still?😂
Still the devil. Gary had to make the video easy to follow for the MOA guys. They can’t comprehend MIL
What he said. 😂
MOA Sucks!
Mil is easy math in your head. Moa might be more specific, but the math is much harder in a rush. Mil all day!
@@ChicagoHOG27 MOA isn’t “more precise” as I cover in depth in my MOA Sucks Part II video. MIL can do everything MOA can do and do it better. MIL can also do many things that MOA can’t do as well. Those are just facts MOA users can’t seem to grasp.
MIL is faster, easier to learn, and more efficient. But… some people shoot in a way they don’t need that. Shooting at one target, at one distance, with no time constraint, then I guess MOA is all you need. 🤷♂️
Ammo assembled during the COVID ERA AND HORNADY'S PRECISION STANDARD...yeah
If it's not written down it never happened. 😊
So.... what racetrack is that. Lol
Alright folks 😂
I need a new Hobby :).
And your using factory ammo lol good luck with that lol
😂😂😂😂😂😂
That's why we use a plumb line in the beginning 😂
I don’t think your comprehension skills are all that great. If you use a plumb line to level an optic, it will mask a reticle out of plumb.
It’s like I’m teaching Joe Biden long range here…🤷♂️
Outstanding videos! Thank you