The inconsistency of their ban logic and actual bans(and even things not banned) is infuriating. Rule 0 stuff, or have a ban list that actually follows the policy. Very frustrating. Especially when committee members recently said(when adding the reason why cards were banned) that the reasons on these cards are sometimes no longer true - BUT we also aren't unbanning those.
this is the top reason I stop playing edh. The ban list is so stupid. Either just don't care to ban any thing and let player do it for themself. Or have a baseline ban and advise people on how to expanse it. Ban as an example and then treat those example as the hard rule is still baffle me. What is the point of "example ban" when most card in the same power level or type of effect is still legal and widely played by the RC themself.
I'm just gonna put this thought out there before having watched the video. The ban list needs some revision!! Power creep has been and is real. Some cards need to be unbanned!
I feel like an issue with making a banlist for a casual format is that people always have different ideas about what a casual format is. So a commander banlist is kinda dumb. Or at least feels that way.
I had a guy in college who only played Golos and would just swap out the ‘shell’ of it (aka remove the non-ramp cards to put in other cards that were good being cheated out). My opinion on why it was banned was that if you hit your land drops then Golos’ commander tax is irrelevant no matter how many times you kill it.
You guys touched on it a little bit here, but I do think there's something to be said for powerful cards that enable strategies that may not otherwise be viable. I understand the ubiquitous nature of some of this stuff may be annoying, but theres some people out there that need sol ring or dark rit just to make 7 mana jank playable in a less than 3 hour game lol
Very interesting. I personally think banning towards competitive is way better. I do however think banning or not banning due to price should be done away with.
I support defining a competitive and casual format for commander. I would personally ban all fast mana that costs 3 or less (rituals included), and 2 card combos. So you'd be able to run individual powerful cards, like thoracle but would not be able to have Demonic consultation in the deck.
My LGS has their own ban list of fast mana (mana crypt, chrome mox, etc) and dockside among a few other things. The games are actually fun and the power levels are typically within range of each other.
@aklepatzky very true! I play casual and cedh so I get both sides of it. The expensive commanders cost a lot of mana for a reason though! I play atraxa so a turn 2-3 atraxa is amazing
I think EDH should just be overhauled at this point. Witht the never-ending influx of commander targetted products it isn't even close to the same as 10 years ago. The rule 0 talk aspect doesn't work and only works if you consistently play with the same people. I like having access to all cards from throughout mtg's history. It's why I absolutely love canadian highlander. Commander needs people to apply restrictions to themselves, something very few people actually seek out to do as barely anybody really gives a shit about style points. Which is understandable because people want to slam powerful cards. I would kill for being able to play emrakul the aeons torn as commander or even in the 99. But there is no proper way to mediate what people aspire to do in a game versus keeping it subjectively fun for everyone. Aside from that, it's great that there is a banlist but there are 1000 other cards that will make people claw at their eyes and groan. This is why I think a point system would actually be good for EDH. It enforces restrictions, breeds creativity while still allowing people to play with any card from throughout mtg history.
Ban lists and rule zero rules are the bane of my existence. Telling others what they can and cannot play seems eye rolling to me. As long as you ain't cheating it's fair game. I have an anything goes mentally when it comes to building decks and playstyles. Like I said, as long as you follow what your cards say and do and don't cheat, let's rock baby.
I think we need generically good cards otherwise you end up turning into yugioh. Imagine if llanowar elf only made green mana for elves. Or your card archetype not getting access to decent removal ramp or card draw because the archetype is ass. I think we might overvalue cards being thematic.
As soon as you state you want a format to be for everyone to he welcome and able to express themselves, you cannot govern that format in a way that makes everyone happy. Casuals might see competitive players as toxic or whatever, but competitive players in every format are on the same page most of tye time.
Would it even be possible to make a feel-good format ban list? I see alot of people play decks that have a snowballs chance of winning, mostly new players. If you start to buy/play some of the high power cards you understand very quickly there is almost no substitution in terms of power. I personally would prefer to run weirder cards even if it means less interaction. But if you play blue for example and you don't put a bunch of counterspells in then you prob lose alot. (Don't ask me how I know).
The rules committee are clowns. Just some mtg "personalities" / influencers detached from the reality of the game with their stupid over produced shows and fake laughs. THERE IS SAID IT. God I am glad for channels like yours with authentic people. Also commenting on the ban list. How come Thassas is not banned yet? WTF
lol. your the clown. Most of the ppl on both the RC and CAG have played thousands of games and you will never be close to understanding the format as much as them. does the mean they are perfect. of course not. but to call them clowns just shows how much your suffering from the dunning krueger effect. look it up as i am pretty sure you don't know what that is.
is their discussion points for the commander list. ill answer that at the end. ......................... 1) expropriate vs Emrakul. one is in your command zone the other is not.......................... 2) Golos = makes fun of the commander tax and is basically the king of soup decks more then Kenright ever wish he could be...................... 3) saying a card that is generically good should not be played. This makes no sense. ramp / removal / tons of cards that are commonly used would fall into this category. ............ 4) also value = faster games.should we not have cards in hand and mana to cast them?................ 5). on the idea of BAN ALL FAST MANA.................. to start with. what is fast mana.........are we banning all elves............... are we banning all rocks........... are we banning things like cryptolith rites. etc........ 6) The filthy casual is the one arguing for how healthy Thassa Oracle is when the only real use for this card is as a finisher to 2 card or infinite combos is weird. 7) I could comment on many fo your comments on the cards that are currently banned as i disagree with many of your conclusions at the end. ill do just one as an example......... Yawg Bargiain. You compare it to Necro and Ad Nauseum............................ Necropotence is you do it blindly. Yawg you know what card your getting and you can do it one at a time and at instant speed on opponents turn. Not close to copmparable................Ad Nauseeum is only mostly usable as a one turn combo card really. Yawg is a turn by turn value card. and again you have control over how much you do. I think many of your analysis are not quite thinking correctly about the cards your saying should not be banned......................Iona. problem is once your down to 1v1. you can lock out the other person and potentially invalidate the end of the game to a certain extent. Answering my initial line..............one thing you said from the start of this video i think you should take into consideration in your critique of how the RC is doing things. there are thousands of cards. tons of which are redundant..at this point doing a thorough bannning based on x or y axis is likely to be a failing concept........... also just between the 4 of you with how many differing opinions you have. multiply that by the playerbase and number of cards in existance..mix in each players knowledge of the game and format and desires = There is no actual solution. This is a non resolvable discussion in essense. In the end. The RC is doing things just fine. They are giving loose guidelines. It is then for us as players to decide how we go about it from there. All this being said. I appreciate the video and your content in general. Just wanted to say why i think a lot of these ""critiques"" ppl have if really thought about dont make sense.
36:00 creating two different ban lists for cEDH and casual EDH would be very close to the mindset of Legacy or Vintage play vs Modern or Standard. Commander is a casual and social game and everyone should feel comfortable to sit down at any table and play a game. By allowing cards in the format that warp games to the extreme you are encouraging people to not jump into a random game, removing the social aspect of it. When I sit down with my regular POD we can select decks that play well together but with random people you can't do that. People lie about the power level of their decks, if they have combos in them, etc. Golos needed to be banned just like Prime Time, it promotes others to run more land destruction; which we all don't want. This can even be seen in the sweaty Golos/Dark Depths combo mentioned. WoTC in general needs to print better removal that effects each opponent, much like dismantling wave.
😂🤨... We're just trying to be empathetic to the general public. I don't know if you're being serious or not, but... You do know the whole reason Invoke Prejudice is banned is because of the art right? Why would we just slap that on screen? 🤔
Hey I am the guy Corbyn was talking about! I legit feel special. Another great episode guys. I have thoughts but I'll save it for another video :)
Which part was that? Edit: timestamp, please!
The inconsistency of their ban logic and actual bans(and even things not banned) is infuriating. Rule 0 stuff, or have a ban list that actually follows the policy. Very frustrating. Especially when committee members recently said(when adding the reason why cards were banned) that the reasons on these cards are sometimes no longer true - BUT we also aren't unbanning those.
this is the top reason I stop playing edh. The ban list is so stupid. Either just don't care to ban any thing and let player do it for themself. Or have a baseline ban and advise people on how to expanse it. Ban as an example and then treat those example as the hard rule is still baffle me. What is the point of "example ban" when most card in the same power level or type of effect is still legal and widely played by the RC themself.
I'm just gonna put this thought out there before having watched the video. The ban list needs some revision!! Power creep has been and is real. Some cards need to be unbanned!
I feel like an issue with making a banlist for a casual format is that people always have different ideas about what a casual format is. So a commander banlist is kinda dumb. Or at least feels that way.
I had a guy in college who only played Golos and would just swap out the ‘shell’ of it (aka remove the non-ramp cards to put in other cards that were good being cheated out). My opinion on why it was banned was that if you hit your land drops then Golos’ commander tax is irrelevant no matter how many times you kill it.
Love the power level you play at and discuss. Looking forward to Ep. 3!
Nice video fellas, appreciate the content. Happy Patreon supporter here, would enjoy more of these videos
Glad you like it! Thanks for your support!
You guys touched on it a little bit here, but I do think there's something to be said for powerful cards that enable strategies that may not otherwise be viable. I understand the ubiquitous nature of some of this stuff may be annoying, but theres some people out there that need sol ring or dark rit just to make 7 mana jank playable in a less than 3 hour game lol
Loving this open and honest conversation. Do more!
Hype for episode 2 :D
Very interesting. I personally think banning towards competitive is way better. I do however think banning or not banning due to price should be done away with.
Let's go been waiting for ep 2 🎉
I support defining a competitive and casual format for commander.
I would personally ban all fast mana that costs 3 or less (rituals included), and 2 card combos. So you'd be able to run individual powerful cards, like thoracle but would not be able to have Demonic consultation in the deck.
My LGS has their own ban list of fast mana (mana crypt, chrome mox, etc) and dockside among a few other things. The games are actually fun and the power levels are typically within range of each other.
Is there a picture of it? Cause I'd love that!!
@Jman1903 they have a list at the shop. The shop is Gamers And Geeks in Mobile, Alabama.
Sadly these rocks make expensive commanders very viable in high power tables
@aklepatzky very true! I play casual and cedh so I get both sides of it. The expensive commanders cost a lot of mana for a reason though! I play atraxa so a turn 2-3 atraxa is amazing
really enjoy this content. good mix of shit talk and healthy disagreements.
You guys rock!
I think EDH should just be overhauled at this point. Witht the never-ending influx of commander targetted products it isn't even close to the same as 10 years ago. The rule 0 talk aspect doesn't work and only works if you consistently play with the same people.
I like having access to all cards from throughout mtg's history. It's why I absolutely love canadian highlander. Commander needs people to apply restrictions to themselves, something very few people actually seek out to do as barely anybody really gives a shit about style points. Which is understandable because people want to slam powerful cards. I would kill for being able to play emrakul the aeons torn as commander or even in the 99. But there is no proper way to mediate what people aspire to do in a game versus keeping it subjectively fun for everyone. Aside from that, it's great that there is a banlist but there are 1000 other cards that will make people claw at their eyes and groan.
This is why I think a point system would actually be good for EDH. It enforces restrictions, breeds creativity while still allowing people to play with any card from throughout mtg history.
Golos was my first return to commander in years! I build a god tribal deck with him lmao
you guys are the best
The dankest dungeon are MY REAL PARENTS PLZ REACH OUT TO YOUR BOY
lost all faith in the ban list when they unbanned protean hulk then turned around and banned flash.
No joke, last night I thought to myself "...I should build a EDH Deck with that Banned Colorless Commander."
Ban lists and rule zero rules are the bane of my existence. Telling others what they can and cannot play seems eye rolling to me. As long as you ain't cheating it's fair game. I have an anything goes mentally when it comes to building decks and playstyles. Like I said, as long as you follow what your cards say and do and don't cheat, let's rock baby.
I think we need generically good cards otherwise you end up turning into yugioh. Imagine if llanowar elf only made green mana for elves. Or your card archetype not getting access to decent removal ramp or card draw because the archetype is ass. I think we might overvalue cards being thematic.
Maybe! Sometimes it's fun to play with butt mechanics anyway. Like cycling lol
As soon as you state you want a format to be for everyone to he welcome and able to express themselves, you cannot govern that format in a way that makes everyone happy. Casuals might see competitive players as toxic or whatever, but competitive players in every format are on the same page most of tye time.
Would it even be possible to make a feel-good format ban list? I see alot of people play decks that have a snowballs chance of winning, mostly new players. If you start to buy/play some of the high power cards you understand very quickly there is almost no substitution in terms of power. I personally would prefer to run weirder cards even if it means less interaction. But if you play blue for example and you don't put a bunch of counterspells in then you prob lose alot. (Don't ask me how I know).
The rules committee are clowns. Just some mtg "personalities" / influencers detached from the reality of the game with their stupid over produced shows and fake laughs. THERE IS SAID IT. God I am glad for channels like yours with authentic people. Also commenting on the ban list. How come Thassas is not banned yet? WTF
you are confusing the rc with the cag. rc is filled with very qualified individuals
lol. your the clown. Most of the ppl on both the RC and CAG have played thousands of games and you will never be close to understanding the format as much as them. does the mean they are perfect. of course not. but to call them clowns just shows how much your suffering from the dunning krueger effect. look it up as i am pretty sure you don't know what that is.
Dockside isn’t usually a casual card. If it’s in a deck, it’s usually high powered at least. Same for rhystic, smothering, etc.
is their discussion points for the commander list. ill answer that at the end. .........................
1) expropriate vs Emrakul. one is in your command zone the other is not..........................
2) Golos = makes fun of the commander tax and is basically the king of soup decks more then Kenright ever wish he could be......................
3) saying a card that is generically good should not be played. This makes no sense. ramp / removal / tons of cards that are commonly used would fall into this category. ............
4) also value = faster games.should we not have cards in hand and mana to cast them?................
5). on the idea of BAN ALL FAST MANA.................. to start with. what is fast mana.........are we banning all elves............... are we banning all rocks........... are we banning things like cryptolith rites. etc........
6) The filthy casual is the one arguing for how healthy Thassa Oracle is when the only real use for this card is as a finisher to 2 card or infinite combos is weird.
7) I could comment on many fo your comments on the cards that are currently banned as i disagree with many of your conclusions at the end. ill do just one as an example......... Yawg Bargiain. You compare it to Necro and Ad Nauseum............................ Necropotence is you do it blindly. Yawg you know what card your getting and you can do it one at a time and at instant speed on opponents turn. Not close to copmparable................Ad Nauseeum is only mostly usable as a one turn combo card really. Yawg is a turn by turn value card. and again you have control over how much you do. I think many of your analysis are not quite thinking correctly about the cards your saying should not be banned......................Iona. problem is once your down to 1v1. you can lock out the other person and potentially invalidate the end of the game to a certain extent.
Answering my initial line..............one thing you said from the start of this video i think you should take into consideration in your critique of how the RC is doing things. there are thousands of cards. tons of which are redundant..at this point doing a thorough bannning based on x or y axis is likely to be a failing concept........... also just between the 4 of you with how many differing opinions you have. multiply that by the playerbase and number of cards in existance..mix in each players knowledge of the game and format and desires = There is no actual solution. This is a non resolvable discussion in essense.
In the end. The RC is doing things just fine. They are giving loose guidelines. It is then for us as players to decide how we go about it from there.
All this being said. I appreciate the video and your content in general. Just wanted to say why i think a lot of these ""critiques"" ppl have if really thought about dont make sense.
Unban primeval titan
36:00 creating two different ban lists for cEDH and casual EDH would be very close to the mindset of Legacy or Vintage play vs Modern or Standard. Commander is a casual and social game and everyone should feel comfortable to sit down at any table and play a game. By allowing cards in the format that warp games to the extreme you are encouraging people to not jump into a random game, removing the social aspect of it. When I sit down with my regular POD we can select decks that play well together but with random people you can't do that. People lie about the power level of their decks, if they have combos in them, etc. Golos needed to be banned just like Prime Time, it promotes others to run more land destruction; which we all don't want. This can even be seen in the sweaty Golos/Dark Depths combo mentioned. WoTC in general needs to print better removal that effects each opponent, much like dismantling wave.
Golos should’ve been banned game is way better without golos
Did you just censor a card art? There's nothing wrong with Invoke Prejudice. The art is a good representation of the name and what it does.
😂🤨... We're just trying to be empathetic to the general public. I don't know if you're being serious or not, but... You do know the whole reason Invoke Prejudice is banned is because of the art right? Why would we just slap that on screen? 🤔
@@stormincorbyn It's a picture of guys wearing masks. Better censor it so no one has their feelings hurt.
I will never be okay with censorship.
seriousy? your thumbs up on the KKK card. that is the hill your standing on?
UNBAN PRIME TIME YOU COWARDS