Thanks very much for the instructive video and your analysis of the problem. I absolutely agree with your conclusions. Very sad to see such a great machine virtually destroyed by (probably) brute force. However I disagree with your remarks on electric "pulses" driving 3-phase motors and the resulting "unsmoothnes": basically 3-phase motors are driven by currents on 3 lines. The voltages are sine-shaped and there is a temporal shift between them - called "phase". The currents run through the coils of motor and create magnetic fields. If you add the magnetic fields of the three phases you get a perfectly "smooth" rotating magnetic field without any pulsation - as if you would spin a permanent magnet. The magnetic field drives the rotor of the motor which runs perfectly smooth. The electric sine waves of the current (which could be regarded as "pulses") do not cause any pulsation of the motor speed/torque. (To electrical engineers: sorry for my overly simplified explanation.) The description of your setup with a 3-phase motor driving a DC generator generating DC power for a DC motor sounds like a "Ward -Leonard" setup. The reason why this has been used in former times is the fact, that DC motors can operate at variable speed - in contrast to 3-phase motors (without VFD in former times). In former times Ward-Leonard converters have been used to drive very heavy machines e.g. electric winders in mines and motors in rolling mills. I have also seen surface grinders using the same principle to enable variable spindle speeds. (E.g. Jung HF50) Theoretically/strictly speaking I would even expect that DC motors run less smoothly than 3-phase AC motors because the current is "switched" between the coils of the rotor by means of the commutator. As you correctly state: nowadays you can overcome this problem by using solid state variable frequency converters (VFD). I hope you don't find my comment patronizing. Just wanted to clarify this. Keep up your excellent work!
Technically all motors end up using AC anyway. DC has to be “chopped up” for the motor to function. Implying that an AC or DC motor dictates the finish is rubbish, ALL CNC machines run AC motors.
Additionally, the mass of the moving components smooths out any minor fluctuations in speed that may result. The belts also help, though belts flutter tremendously. But the cutting action may either add to, or subtract from any tiny speed fluctuations, depending on the material, cutter type, interrupted cuts, etc. All in all, it’s not a real problem. In most of the machines the cutting speed is tied to the rotational speed, so any fluctuations in that will be reflected in the cutting speed, and so will be compensated for in that way also.
Good point. DC motors are typically the old fashioned way to control rpm of motors. The old speed controllers often had vacuum tube amplifiers for controlling the rpm of the DC motors. I agree that 3 phase motors are smooth running and we must also consider that the voltage change is linear due to being applied as a sine wave. More modern applications of speed control using PWM tends to supply a choppy square wave to loads, and the same with the cheaper VFDs not that this will really be a concern to smoothness, vibration in a motor.
The reason that Monarch had the AC-dynamo-DC setup was to have infinitely variable speed control, not for smoothness. It's called a "Ward-Leonard" drive: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Leonard_control. Holbrook (with the Minor) and Colchester (Chipmaster) achieved the same thing with a mechanical Variator. (Kopp style, with tilting balls)
I worked in a local shop cleaning and repainting some of the older machine tools. One of the partners owned a Monarch 10EE. He was quite proud of that lathe. It turned a lot of repair parts for Parker Hannifin Hydraulics when they had a facility in Delaware, Ohio. AL B.
I never could afford a working one and frankly though they were way overpriced for my kind of work and accuracy requirements at the time. I must say the drive systems are really , really complicated. Now they must have had reasons to go to all that trouble to just eliminate the 3 phase drive motor. After all Bob the Chucker has a three phase motor and two drive belts with just elegant ways to change speeds. Nothing really fancy and they seem to be accurate .
Thanks a milling for making this video, ,, I will know what to look for at my next lathe purchase, You did a good job with this instructional spindle check,
I’m living this very scenario on a different lathe. Pulled the spindle, had it chromed and ground concentric on the journals. Reinstalled new P5 bearings and now figuring on the grinding the D6 taper to match the bearings while installed, maybe cutting the face of the cam lock too. I need to work out the trigonometry if that’s going to be needed or not.
You can screw the camlock pins in further to compensate for the loss of quite a bit from the face. Uf you run out there, then you might be able to make fatter cams. They are not a particularly simple shape, but they can be made (I have done it)
@@Chris-te7uk I was mainly suggesting grinding the face to get a second "bite" at the taper, for example if the spindle is straightened. Though straightening the spindle, building up the taper with weld (hard facing rod?), "licking" the face clean in-situ and then machining / re-grinding both tapers ought to work. I had good results in-situ grinding a bent surface-grinder spindle using a generic eBay "CNC" spindle.
I truly dislike auctions... I bought some things years ago at an online auction from a company in San Antonio that had folded... Figured hey they were folding so most of the stuff would be ok... Best thing I got, and still have, were some ratty old office chairs :)
Steve, I would like to see the owner give you permission to pull the spindle, clean good, set on vee blocks and check the runout from end to end as well as the face of the camlock to determine where the spindle is bent. Next, have the spindle either wet mag or dye penetrate done to see if any cracks started from the wreck the lathe got into. Last, any wreck that would cause this much damage has probably upset the alignment of the vee and flat the headstock sits on, too. So sad things like this happen. I've seen many machines in my past get into wrecks similar to this. Big machines! They patch them and keep running. Yeah, some day they get sold off to some poor guy and it turns into a nightmare for him. As always thanks for sharing, Ken
Not worth it in my opinion.... They ground off the taper on the spindle to make it fit and the whole thing has too little material to true up the end and make it correct. IF they had left the spindle alone then I would have considered check it out but now its too far gone.. New front bearings from Monarch are at least 2800 and about 1600 for the back ones..
@@10swatkins That's not what I'm getting at. I just wanted to know how bad the damage is. Your indicator trick is not fully convincing to me. If the spindle is bent, I'd like to know where it is bent at. In the mid length of the spindle? Or at the camlock flange end? I realize it's not going to be restored.
@@10swatkins Hahaha... If the lathe is still around about March or April, I'll be glad to come up one day and remove the spindle and we check it out. You can even film it if you like. I promise not to break the camera!
@@4GSR It's a deal..... I have a, Toolmaster 1D, Axelson 16, Monarch 10EE, Brown and Sharp Universal #1 and a few other small machines in line and just not time to spend on that problem child...
I do cnc field service, a customer bought a large horizontal mill at an auction, the B axis was bad, just the B axis bearing was $20,000, total repair just for the B was $56,000
if the electronics and drives are good.. i wonder if Keith Rucker would be interested as he just ripped the pre vaccum tube mechanical controls out of his 10EE. or if 4 ponds shop might have spare spindles from some of the many 10EE he has worked on.. but for the guy with the 9" south bend.. check ebay South Bend 9" Lathe Headstock Spindle
Have to rebuild the cross feed before anything could be done and I don't think it's ridged enough to hold a reamer on that hardened taper... Post mounted ID grinder would be the only way then you shill have a 1/8" too short nose with no way to mount a chuck...... Spindle is totally toast after they ground off the outside taper :(
I just bough a used haas cnc lathe. I paid some machine service company to inspect it. They told me it looks good. I get it here and the spindle has .010 end play. 6,000 to fix. waiting for haas to come and install the new spindle. I will have a nice lathe at the end of it, but i sure wish i would have known. I will know more next time
Sorry, these things are precision machines and cost a lot to keep the accuracy. By the time most people can afford them its a real crap shoot on what you end up with :(
Thanks. I had not thought to check the runout on the back end of my spindle. BTW There is something terribly wrong with your audio - stuttering - not heard in earlier videos.
There is a pretty aggressive noise gate on the microphone during the first and final part of it! Probably too strong noise reduction. Everything is still audible tho!
There was a hell of a click on two parts of the film , from what I don't know.... Tried to use the editing filter to take out noise and that is what made it sound weird... Still having weird sound issues with the new setup...
@@leeroyholloway4277 No problem... I was trying to get something out for the guy that wanted help and the new wireless go is giving me problems... it was suppose to be combining the two mic input channels instead of keeping the separate , was not doing so ... I switched back to my old mic, re filmed everything and it had a bad click! too tired to mess with it so I tried post processing to make it go away... ....
Make a custom backing plate to fit it, and move it off to a hobbyist so they can have bragging rights for owning a 10EE. They are nice lathes, but problem plagued electronics is a definite "buyer beware" .
Had the same thought but still the amount of money spent on that just for name alone is heartbreaking that’s a 12-1500$ machine at most and the auction should help this man because this is information that should’ve been disclosed especially that compound slide being shattered
served a four year union apprenticeship in the early 70's and those double e machines were the only small lathe you would like to work on. they were better than any german or japanese machine. we had mostly monarch lathes and american pacemakers. i didn't realize how beautiful these machines were till i left the government lab where i served and got out in the real world. Some savage bastard really had to crash that monarch. poor little thing. take her to the scrap yard. it's only steel. and a seven thousand dollar mistake is par for the course in machine shop these days. I own a jet 13X40 for over 20 years that is in good shape only because i am the only one that runs it. the only jet 13X40 machines i have seen in shops i have been in had the carriages taken apart or the lid of the gear box removed, and covered with dust of long misuse.
A lot of machines come through here and you can tell if they were cared for... Heck my old Heavy 10 was in better shape that most of the machines I see today, mainly because it was mine for 35 years.. :(
That sucks, I bought a 1917 Hardinge quick change with a bent spindle and bad bearing, luckily I was able to straighten it and make a new bearing.. (cast iron cone bearing) its a work in progress, but at least its spins true now.
@@10swatkins It was a pretty straight forward operation, this is (mine, not yours ..ed) a plain bearing lathe mind you, and just a cast iron bearing, 4 degree taper on the outside, bit over 2" bore. did the whole operation in a 35 year old victor 1660 lathe. I used the Kieth Fenner demonstrated method of flame straightening on the spindle, (find the high spot, heat a cherry red spot and quench, rinse and repeat till you're happy) then used a dumore tool post grinder to clean up the last .00075 or so on the spindle.. I found a NOS threaded Hardinge backplate I dialed into a 4 jaw on the victor perfect so I basically made the whole spindle match the threaded nose. I don't know if you can get a 10ee back into the level of precision the name suggests, but you might pop the spindle out and give it a try.. could end up pulling this lathe back out of the part out column into the 85% good runner category..
Yep, I figured it out after about 2 hours of switching things around :( Had a BAD clicking going on that I tried to filter out in post... All better now... New mic and things are back to normal :)
Hi Steve 1967 I finished an apprentiship as a tool maker. Since then I have had a number of engineering jobs and Im not sure I fully agree with you conclusion that the main spindle is bent. I would put my money on somebody who didnt fully understand what they were doing , doing something stupid with a grinding wheel. That is the only explanition for the lack of concentricity between the OD and the ID at the stock end(chuck end) of the shaft. I would be tempted to re grind that inner taper. One way to check would be to put the DTI along the length of the spindle. Is that possible?.
I am not sure it would even matter, if the spindle were to be wobbling as long as it rotated around the centerline correctly. If you chuck a part in your 3 jaw and it is .01" out 1 cutting pass and it is corrected. Part is rotating around the centerline of the bearings, going to finish round.
Vibrations would kill the finish... The chuck will not fit the spindle as they ground off almost 1/8 of an inch to get the chuck to run straight and then put foil tape in there to act as a gap filler. :(
What were the manufacturer's tolerances for the spindle? I used one of these for many years and don't recall ANYTHING locating to the I.D. of the spindle tube. The taper of the collet assy. would be pretty important as it is what really needs to run true, especially if you are not turning the O.D. of the pieces you are making. Trash? I think NOT!
You can't turn between centers with a bad 2 thousand out internal taper .. About the only thing I would ever need to use the internal taper for except for putting in a center to help line something up in a chuck...
Some 10EE were supplied with an internal collet closer assy. They use the inner taper and a draw tube instead of that collet chuck. Also as Steve noted, turning between centers. Mine has a hardinge collet chuck like shown in this video.
The ID of the rear end of the spindle tube is used to center the collet closer. But it is not really a precision bore: on my 10EE it is clearly a turned surface, not ground. So the fact that yours is out of round does not necessarily mean the spindle is bent. The #12 Jarno taper at the chuck end is indeed ground, and should run true. But again, I don't think that yours being out of round proves that the spindle is bent. And the fact that the Camlock taper runs true gives some evidence that the spindle is *not* bent. BTW, on my 10EE, the collet setup uses a 5C Camlock nose that registers to the Camlock taper, so the Jarno taper is not involved. It would run true on your machine. A conversation with the folks at Monarch about this might prove useful before you rush to judgement. You also might get or fabricate a Jarno test bar to check if they run true. Lastly, I'd think you could pretty easily true up the Jarno taper using a tool post grinder and ID wheel. If you truly think your lathe is a lost cause, you have nothing to lose.
What a damn shame man I’d be absolutely sick if I was him whoever doctored that machine up and never said a word or whichever asshole withheld that information in the auctions description needs to suffer the same fate but karma has a way to deal with these kinds of assholes we just don’t get to see it
I wasn’t aware that Monarch was still making these things, even as a custom order. I knew they rebuild old machines, at high prices. Real machine rebuilds are expensive.
There is a guy on youtube that completely upgraded the wiring on a Shalublin that had a lot of complicated electonics. RotarySMP. Maybe you can get some ideas from his videos on that process.
What would a similar cost in good condition? Both visual and mechanical? This do seems like it's being used, and not kept in clean condition. That often is a indicator of a previous owner not paying the needed attention to the equipment 😊
It's been sitting in my shop for 5 years now, not hooked up and not run since it was bought at the auction.... As for used machines coming from an auction it's almost pristine :) Probably around 20 grand for a good one in great contrition, 154,000 for a new rebuilt one from Monarch..
@@10swatkins okay, thanks 😊 didn't know they were that high priced when being in good condition. 👍😊 But yes, when being stored and not used, dust and so will of course make it look a bit tired 😊. Anyway, sad to see it being in this condition anyway. Thanks for s good video 👍
It might be worth checking the spindle bearings, maybe something is loose and the races spun a little, thus creating a parallel issue. Another issue may exist as high end bearings are marked with the high spot, they may be out of position. It has spindle issues grinding the nose speaks loudly. it is possible it was taken apart and then someone else re-assembled the spindle bearing wrong, maybe. My understanding is issues such as this, bearings improperly set parallel or not enough preload can skew a spindle. The nose issue can you chrome plate the nose and re-grind it. .005 Hard Chrome is attainable. I do like a machine that works right. Best of luck, either way it's a project.
This machine took a horrible crash.. It broke the cross feed dovetails and bent the nose of the spindle so bad they had to grind it off to make a chuck even turn turn close to right and even then had to shim the damn thing with foil tape... Those bearings took a hell of a hit, no way it's going to be back to 10EE standards and new ones cost 2800, for the front ones alone... :(
@@10swatkins Pricey bearings for sure. Thanks, I must have missed that comment. I watched a beautiful newly rebuilt Monarch Lathe get trashed decades ago when working in Saugus MA. Rookie managed this in seconds cranking the carriage under the chuck with jaws extended and turning it on, very similar results, broke so much iron they just hauled it away. Horsepower and Iron has to be respected. Cheers!
What I want to know is how you go about BENDING the spindle of a lathe like a Monarch. Those spindles are manufactured of heat treated high alloy steel and ground to precise dimensions and tolerances. In order to bend it you need a bending moment applied either between the spindle bearings (fore and aft bearings) or you need a large force applied perpendicular to the face of the face plate or chuck which is mounted on the spindle. But that force needs to be in the neighborhood of multiple tons. How do you go about doing that? That's a deliberate sabotaging of the machine.
They crashed the tools into the chuck at a high rate of speed. The force tore off one of the dovetails on the cross slide. Remember a spindle is also Hollow, not a solid bar . I covered this in the video...
@@10swatkins I know that spindles are hollow. I was once a designer at Standard Modern in Toronto. I know lathes. Still, it takes a lot of force to damage one.
Which ones please.. I was having a mic problem with a few but a new mic took care of the problem.... Also I just had a major heart attack and when I get winded I am a little choppy with my words...
Ive seen plenty of bent spindles over the years, but never on a EE. Such a small machine, not sure how you could bend it.. The newer spindle drive retrofits are using servo motors, much smoother than a std AC motor, and no more $$$$ power vacuum tubes.
Operator gets distracted, runs a chuck with extended jaws into a tool post at 3000 rpm.... Screws up the taper so bad that the chuck won't run straight and rips one of the crossfeed dovetails off. He is afraid the Boss will fire him, gets out the grinder and grinds off enough taper to straighten it up and then finds he has had to shorten the taper so much the chuck will not draw enough to seat the chuck on the taper, which is now 1/8" too short.. A little foil tape stuffed into the chuck and it somewhat fits now and he might get away with it.... Now the inside taper is 2 thousands off but who uses that anyway :(
Hello Sir. Have you not rather established that the axle must be out of alignment with the bedways? If I understand your procedure correctly, you took a measurement at either end of the spindle. Between two points of measurement I suppose there to be a straight line and unless I can take a third in between that proves not to be on that same line, I think concluding that the spindle is bent is not justified.
Not if the two points are on the top or bottom of the shaft and the head is on the ways. Then you are measuring distance from the ground bed and not alignment of the head on the way.
Since it can't be used to any precision at this time I would still push the spindle straight with a hydraulic press. I could live with the bearings if everything stood to 1/2 ten thousandths after putting it back in after the push. That nose piece is useless.
This machine took a HUGE hit... broke castings in the cross feed, bent the spindle and I don't think there is any way those bearings are going to be ok :(
sometimes it had to sacrifice 1 to make the others live. if that spindle is fubar. no replacement option. why not sell the other parts to other "monarch gangs" to fix theirs? may be a bit of here and there can fill a bit of that 6000 money pit too.
Double EE's weren't that great IMHO when they were new. I served my apprenticeship in a shop and we had several. In 86 I went into sales and applications and have been in a lot of military shops that had them. The story is always the same...spindle drive issues. A Hardinge dovetail toolroom lathe is a better choice. Monarch is a company that should have been better but they disappointed a lot of customers.
Monarch lost my vote when they bought out Axelson and shut them down a year later because they were better... Same thing with Auto Desk buying out Generic Cad ! Still pissed about that !
@@10swatkins Didn't you mean say Lodge & Shipley? The Axelson family just shut the lathe company down. Veet claimed to bought them from the Axelson family, but two others had claimed, too.
I'm always leery of machines that look too clean and pretty. Kinda like that Mexican Rebuild Bridgeport you showed a while back. Mexican Rebuild = Throw a coat of paint on it and call it rebuilt.
You could Repair the ground down spindle nose by welding and re grinding press the spindle straight ir as straight as you can get it ! get it out of your head that the lathe is junk...it's not fix the damn thing !
I could probably make a new perfect spindle in less time than trying to fix this one. You would have to weld up the inside and outside, grind the outside and inside taper, try to straiten a hollow spindle with thin walls and then heat treat it and grind it to get it back to tolerances.. THEN you get to pay for new bearings, repair the crashed saddle and cross feed and then spend about 1100 for the repairs to the motor system... I'd rather go fishing :)
if you dont work in .001 plus or minus and not .0001 you could get buy with 1/2 the cost bearings, actually if you want .0001 and a 20 micron finish buy a new machine !!!
Well it's not mine so I don't know what he will accept... But if he is happy with a less precise machine then he should just look around for a Southbend Heavy 10. He could find one of those for a lot less than fixing this one back up to standards..
And Don sys you lie a lot? Maybe your answers don't line up with his statements, recon? That is a bad deal BUT if it needs to be true, it blamed well better be. And yes, shafts are straightened every day BUT like you said, that one is shot. GBWYall!
Thanks very much for the instructive video and your analysis of the problem. I absolutely agree with your conclusions. Very sad to see such a great machine virtually destroyed by (probably) brute force.
However I disagree with your remarks on electric "pulses" driving 3-phase motors and the resulting "unsmoothnes": basically 3-phase motors are driven by currents on 3 lines. The voltages are sine-shaped and there is a temporal shift between them - called "phase". The currents run through the coils of motor and create magnetic fields. If you add the magnetic fields of the three phases you get a perfectly "smooth" rotating magnetic field without any pulsation - as if you would spin a permanent magnet. The magnetic field drives the rotor of the motor which runs perfectly smooth. The electric sine waves of the current (which could be regarded as "pulses") do not cause any pulsation of the motor speed/torque. (To electrical engineers: sorry for my overly simplified explanation.)
The description of your setup with a 3-phase motor driving a DC generator generating DC power for a DC motor sounds like a "Ward -Leonard" setup. The reason why this has been used in former times is the fact, that DC motors can operate at variable speed - in contrast to 3-phase motors (without VFD in former times). In former times Ward-Leonard converters have been used to drive very heavy machines e.g. electric winders in mines and motors in rolling mills.
I have also seen surface grinders using the same principle to enable variable spindle speeds. (E.g. Jung HF50)
Theoretically/strictly speaking I would even expect that DC motors run less smoothly than 3-phase AC motors because the current is "switched" between the coils of the rotor by means of the commutator.
As you correctly state: nowadays you can overcome this problem by using solid state variable frequency converters (VFD).
I hope you don't find my comment patronizing. Just wanted to clarify this.
Keep up your excellent work!
Plus DC motors have tremendous low speed torque
Technically all motors end up using AC anyway. DC has to be “chopped up” for the motor to function.
Implying that an AC or DC motor dictates the finish is rubbish, ALL CNC machines run AC motors.
Additionally, the mass of the moving components smooths out any minor fluctuations in speed that may result. The belts also help, though belts flutter tremendously.
But the cutting action may either add to, or subtract from any tiny speed fluctuations, depending on the material, cutter type, interrupted cuts, etc.
All in all, it’s not a real problem. In most of the machines the cutting speed is tied to the rotational speed, so any fluctuations in that will be reflected in the cutting speed, and so will be compensated for in that way also.
Good point. DC motors are typically the old fashioned way to control rpm of motors. The old speed controllers often had vacuum tube amplifiers for controlling the rpm of the DC motors. I agree that 3 phase motors are smooth running and we must also consider that the voltage change is linear due to being applied as a sine wave. More modern applications of speed control using PWM tends to supply a choppy square wave to loads, and the same with the cheaper VFDs not that this will really be a concern to smoothness, vibration in a motor.
The reason that Monarch had the AC-dynamo-DC setup was to have infinitely variable speed control, not for smoothness.
It's called a "Ward-Leonard" drive: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Leonard_control.
Holbrook (with the Minor) and Colchester (Chipmaster) achieved the same thing with a mechanical Variator. (Kopp style, with tilting balls)
Funny just before I watched this video I found a 10ee for sale. Thanks for the tips I will make sure I fully inspect that machine
Good luck! They are nice if all together and working, I just hear a lot of people having troubles with the drives.. Check it out!
In my 45 years as a tool maker, and machinist, I've never seen a spindle bent that badly. I can't imagine how that got bent.
3000 rpms + tool post = Hell of a crash.. tore off a cross slide dovetail...
I worked in a local shop cleaning and repainting some of the older machine tools. One of the partners owned a Monarch 10EE. He was quite proud of that lathe. It turned a lot of repair parts for Parker Hannifin Hydraulics when they had a facility in Delaware, Ohio. AL B.
I never could afford a working one and frankly though they were way overpriced for my kind of work and accuracy requirements at the time.
I must say the drive systems are really , really complicated. Now they must have had reasons to go to all that trouble to just eliminate the 3 phase drive motor. After all Bob the Chucker has a three phase motor and two drive belts with just elegant ways to change speeds. Nothing really fancy and they seem to be accurate .
They went to all that trouble to eliminate the need for gears in the headstock drive train.
Very nice work. Very interesting. Thanks
Thanks a milling for making this video, ,, I will know what to look for at my next lathe purchase, You did a good job with this instructional spindle check,
Glad it was helpful!
I’m living this very scenario on a different lathe. Pulled the spindle, had it chromed and ground concentric on the journals. Reinstalled new P5 bearings and now figuring on the grinding the D6 taper to match the bearings while installed, maybe cutting the face of the cam lock too. I need to work out the trigonometry if that’s going to be needed or not.
You can screw the camlock pins in further to compensate for the loss of quite a bit from the face. Uf you run out there, then you might be able to make fatter cams. They are not a particularly simple shape, but they can be made (I have done it)
@@Chris-te7uk I was mainly suggesting grinding the face to get a second "bite" at the taper, for example if the spindle is straightened.
Though straightening the spindle, building up the taper with weld (hard facing rod?), "licking" the face clean in-situ and then machining / re-grinding both tapers ought to work.
I had good results in-situ grinding a bent surface-grinder spindle using a generic eBay "CNC" spindle.
I've so far resisted the urge to own one. We've had two come through the shop at work, both bought cheap(
Thanks for sharing
Their is a saying not all things at auctions is junk but most of the junk is at the auctions.
I truly dislike auctions... I bought some things years ago at an online auction from a company in San Antonio that had folded... Figured hey they were folding so most of the stuff would be ok... Best thing I got, and still have, were some ratty old office chairs :)
Looks like you have others problem children taking up a lot of shop space to me.
Nice of you!
Great video Steve thanks for the how too much appreciated.
Steve, I would like to see the owner give you permission to pull the spindle, clean good, set on vee blocks and check the runout from end to end as well as the face of the camlock to determine where the spindle is bent. Next, have the spindle either wet mag or dye penetrate done to see if any cracks started from the wreck the lathe got into. Last, any wreck that would cause this much damage has probably upset the alignment of the vee and flat the headstock sits on, too. So sad things like this happen. I've seen many machines in my past get into wrecks similar to this. Big machines! They patch them and keep running. Yeah, some day they get sold off to some poor guy and it turns into a nightmare for him.
As always thanks for sharing, Ken
Not worth it in my opinion.... They ground off the taper on the spindle to make it fit and the whole thing has too little material to true up the end and make it correct. IF they had left the spindle alone then I would have considered check it out but now its too far gone..
New front bearings from Monarch are at least 2800 and about 1600 for the back ones..
@@10swatkins That's not what I'm getting at. I just wanted to know how bad the damage is. Your indicator trick is not fully convincing to me. If the spindle is bent, I'd like to know where it is bent at. In the mid length of the spindle? Or at the camlock flange end? I realize it's not going to be restored.
@@4GSR Well Ken I volunteer you to come on down! :) I have other problem children taking up my time now:( When you come ,,, Keep off the GRASS!
@@10swatkins Hahaha... If the lathe is still around about March or April, I'll be glad to come up one day and remove the spindle and we check it out. You can even film it if you like. I promise not to break the camera!
@@4GSR It's a deal..... I have a, Toolmaster 1D, Axelson 16, Monarch 10EE, Brown and Sharp Universal #1 and a few other small machines in line and just not time to spend on that problem child...
I do cnc field service, a customer bought a large horizontal mill at an auction, the B axis was bad, just the B axis bearing was $20,000, total repair just for the B was $56,000
Sometimes buying the machine is only the start :)
Sorry to hear about the lathe. That’s gotta suck. I worry about that too. Thanks for the reminder. Happy machine hunting!
Thanks..... Benn on a trip more to come :)
That is so sad it got crashed. Maybe take the 2 lathes and make one?
I would do that but they don’t belong to Steve, up to the owner!
Only one is mine... I 've given the owner some options but the blue one is too good to cannibalize.
@@donmadere4237 THEY?? Hmmm.................
if the electronics and drives are good.. i wonder if Keith Rucker would be interested as he just ripped the pre vaccum tube mechanical controls out of his 10EE. or if 4 ponds shop might have spare spindles from some of the many 10EE he has worked on..
but for the guy with the 9" south bend.. check ebay South Bend 9" Lathe Headstock Spindle
No they are not good either.... I can fix them but it cost money...
I'm thinking some one had a horrendous crash.
Ya Think :)
Very inforamative...Thanks for the explanation.
thanks for the video.......sad to see such a nice machine with so many issues....cheers from Florida, Paul
Thanks for watching!
Carbide reamer of whatever taper # it is? Just a quickey to see how long it'll hold the current spindle play with it running bent. good luck.
Have to rebuild the cross feed before anything could be done and I don't think it's ridged enough to hold a reamer on that hardened taper... Post mounted ID grinder would be the only way then you shill have a 1/8" too short nose with no way to mount a chuck...... Spindle is totally toast after they ground off the outside taper :(
I just bough a used haas cnc lathe. I paid some machine service company to inspect it.
They told me it looks good. I get it here and the spindle has .010 end play. 6,000 to fix.
waiting for haas to come and install the new spindle. I will have a nice lathe at the end of it, but i sure wish i would have known. I will know more next time
Sorry, these things are precision machines and cost a lot to keep the accuracy. By the time most people can afford them its a real crap shoot on what you end up with :(
Dan, i would at a minimum require a refund on your inspection costs. Thats a lot of $$$ to eat for someone elses paid mistake !
Yes, I did get a refund on the inspection cost. 👍
Thanks. I had not thought to check the runout on the back end of my spindle. BTW There is something terribly wrong with your audio - stuttering - not heard in earlier videos.
There is a pretty aggressive noise gate on the microphone during the first and final part of it! Probably too strong noise reduction. Everything is still audible tho!
I even went and re shot it with the old mic.... Working on it :)
Are you using a noise gate on your audio track? Sounds like the threshold is set a little high.
There was a hell of a click on two parts of the film , from what I don't know.... Tried to use the editing filter to take out noise and that is what made it sound weird... Still having weird sound issues with the new setup...
@@10swatkins I'm not pickin on ya. I'm an audio engineer in my other life and I know the struggle.
@@leeroyholloway4277 No problem... I was trying to get something out for the guy that wanted help and the new wireless go is giving me problems... it was suppose to be combining the two mic input channels instead of keeping the separate , was not doing so ... I switched back to my old mic, re filmed everything and it had a bad click! too tired to mess with it so I tried post processing to make it go away... ....
Make a custom backing plate to fit it, and move it off to a hobbyist so they can have bragging rights for owning a 10EE. They are nice lathes, but problem plagued electronics is a definite "buyer beware" .
Had the same thought but still the amount of money spent on that just for name alone is heartbreaking that’s a 12-1500$ machine at most and the auction should help this man because this is information that should’ve been disclosed especially that compound slide being shattered
I would not wish this machine on my worst enemy :(
served a four year union apprenticeship in the early 70's and those double e machines were the only small lathe you would like to work on. they were better than any german or japanese machine. we had mostly monarch lathes and american pacemakers. i didn't realize how beautiful these machines were till i left the government lab where i served and got out in the real world. Some savage bastard really had to crash that monarch. poor little thing. take her to the scrap yard. it's only steel. and a seven thousand dollar mistake is par for the course in machine shop these days. I own a jet 13X40 for over 20 years that is in good shape only because i am the only one that runs it. the only jet 13X40 machines i have seen in shops i have been in had the carriages taken apart or the lid of the gear box removed, and covered with dust of long misuse.
A lot of machines come through here and you can tell if they were cared for... Heck my old Heavy 10 was in better shape that most of the machines I see today, mainly because it was mine for 35 years.. :(
That sucks, I bought a 1917 Hardinge quick change with a bent spindle and bad bearing, luckily I was able to straighten it and make a new bearing.. (cast iron cone bearing) its a work in progress, but at least its spins true now.
Good for you! I wish I had the ability to make these super precise bearings :(
@@10swatkins It was a pretty straight forward operation, this is (mine, not yours ..ed) a plain bearing lathe mind you, and just a cast iron bearing, 4 degree taper on the outside, bit over 2" bore. did the whole operation in a 35 year old victor 1660 lathe. I used the Kieth Fenner demonstrated method of flame straightening on the spindle, (find the high spot, heat a cherry red spot and quench, rinse and repeat till you're happy) then used a dumore tool post grinder to clean up the last .00075 or so on the spindle.. I found a NOS threaded Hardinge backplate I dialed into a 4 jaw on the victor perfect so I basically made the whole spindle match the threaded nose. I don't know if you can get a 10ee back into the level of precision the name suggests, but you might pop the spindle out and give it a try.. could end up pulling this lathe back out of the part out column into the 85% good runner category..
Oh my???!?!!? Interesting. Thanks for the advice.
Any time!
Steve, your Microphone has a bad connection or is clipping or something.
Yep, I figured it out after about 2 hours of switching things around :( Had a BAD clicking going on that I tried to filter out in post... All better now... New mic and things are back to normal :)
Hi Steve 1967 I finished an apprentiship as a tool maker. Since then I have had a number of engineering jobs and Im not sure I fully agree with you conclusion that the main spindle is bent. I would put my money on somebody who didnt fully understand what they were doing , doing something stupid with a grinding wheel. That is the only explanition for the lack of concentricity between the OD and the ID at the stock end(chuck end) of the shaft. I would be tempted to re grind that inner taper. One way to check would be to put the DTI along the length of the spindle. Is that possible?.
Well that was repaired a couple of months ago... IT was bent ... All better now...
Watching this, is like watching paint dry LOL
I am not sure it would even matter, if the spindle were to be wobbling as long as it rotated around the centerline correctly. If you chuck a part in your 3 jaw and it is .01" out 1 cutting pass and it is corrected. Part is rotating around the centerline of the bearings, going to finish round.
Vibrations would kill the finish... The chuck will not fit the spindle as they ground off almost 1/8 of an inch to get the chuck to run straight and then put foil tape in there to act as a gap filler. :(
THANKS STEVE
Thank you for watching :)
What were the manufacturer's tolerances for the spindle? I used one of these for many years and don't recall ANYTHING locating to the I.D. of the spindle tube. The taper of the collet assy. would be pretty important as it is what really needs to run true, especially if you are not turning the O.D. of the pieces you are making.
Trash? I think NOT!
You can't turn between centers with a bad 2 thousand out internal taper .. About the only thing I would ever need to use the internal taper for except for putting in a center to help line something up in a chuck...
Some 10EE were supplied with an internal collet closer assy. They use the inner taper and a draw tube instead of that collet chuck. Also as Steve noted, turning between centers.
Mine has a hardinge collet chuck like shown in this video.
The ID of the rear end of the spindle tube is used to center the collet closer. But it is not really a precision bore: on my 10EE it is clearly a turned surface, not ground. So the fact that yours is out of round does not necessarily mean the spindle is bent. The #12 Jarno taper at the chuck end is indeed ground, and should run true. But again, I don't think that yours being out of round proves that the spindle is bent. And the fact that the Camlock taper runs true gives some evidence that the spindle is *not* bent. BTW, on my 10EE, the collet setup uses a 5C Camlock nose that registers to the Camlock taper, so the Jarno taper is not involved. It would run true on your machine. A conversation with the folks at Monarch about this might prove useful before you rush to judgement. You also might get or fabricate a Jarno test bar to check if they run true. Lastly, I'd think you could pretty easily true up the Jarno taper using a tool post grinder and ID wheel. If you truly think your lathe is a lost cause, you have nothing to lose.
What a damn shame man I’d be absolutely sick if I was him whoever doctored that machine up and never said a word or whichever asshole withheld that information in the auctions description needs to suffer the same fate but karma has a way to deal with these kinds of assholes we just don’t get to see it
I hope karma kicks them in the teeth :)
@@10swatkins damn sad world we live in these days so many people out for just themselves anymore
@@10swatkins What gores around, comes around. That's better than karma.
I wasn’t aware that Monarch was still making these things, even as a custom order. I knew they rebuild old machines, at high prices. Real machine rebuilds are expensive.
They are not casting the Iron, Just remanufacturing old castings into new machines...
@@10swatkins so they’ll run out of stock. I’m surprised they still have enough good castings to use.
There is a guy on youtube that completely upgraded the wiring on a Shalublin that had a lot of complicated electonics. RotarySMP. Maybe you can get some ideas from his videos on that process.
Without 5 thousand in bearings and parts it's a lost cause... Thanks for the tip though..
Just maybe it was hoisted up by the chuck neck, bad idea.
Naw,,, The cross feed dovetails were broken.. A heck of a crash :(
@@10swatkins Probably swinging a big diameter part and buried the toolpost?
What would a similar cost in good condition? Both visual and mechanical? This do seems like it's being used, and not kept in clean condition. That often is a indicator of a previous owner not paying the needed attention to the equipment 😊
It's been sitting in my shop for 5 years now, not hooked up and not run since it was bought at the auction.... As for used machines coming from an auction it's almost pristine :) Probably around 20 grand for a good one in great contrition, 154,000 for a new rebuilt one from Monarch..
@@10swatkins okay, thanks 😊 didn't know they were that high priced when being in good condition. 👍😊 But yes, when being stored and not used, dust and so will of course make it look a bit tired 😊. Anyway, sad to see it being in this condition anyway. Thanks for s good video 👍
It might be worth checking the spindle bearings, maybe something is loose and the races spun a little, thus creating a parallel issue. Another issue may exist as high end bearings are marked with the high spot, they may be out of position. It has spindle issues grinding the nose speaks loudly. it is possible it was taken apart and then someone else re-assembled the spindle bearing wrong, maybe. My understanding is issues such as this, bearings improperly set parallel or not enough preload can skew a spindle. The nose issue can you chrome plate the nose and re-grind it. .005 Hard Chrome is attainable. I do like a machine that works right. Best of luck, either way it's a project.
This machine took a horrible crash.. It broke the cross feed dovetails and bent the nose of the spindle so bad they had to grind it off to make a chuck even turn turn close to right and even then had to shim the damn thing with foil tape... Those bearings took a hell of a hit, no way it's going to be back to 10EE standards and new ones cost 2800, for the front ones alone... :(
@@10swatkins Pricey bearings for sure. Thanks, I must have missed that comment. I watched a beautiful newly rebuilt Monarch Lathe get trashed decades ago when working in Saugus MA. Rookie managed this in seconds cranking the carriage under the chuck with jaws extended and turning it on, very similar results, broke so much iron they just hauled it away. Horsepower and Iron has to be respected. Cheers!
What I want to know is how you go about BENDING the spindle of a lathe like a Monarch. Those spindles are manufactured of heat treated high alloy steel and ground to precise dimensions and tolerances. In order to bend it you need a bending moment applied either between the spindle bearings (fore and aft bearings) or you need a large force applied perpendicular to the face of the face plate or chuck which is mounted on the spindle. But that force needs to be in the neighborhood of multiple tons. How do you go about doing that? That's a deliberate sabotaging of the machine.
They crashed the tools into the chuck at a high rate of speed. The force tore off one of the dovetails on the cross slide. Remember a spindle is also Hollow, not a solid bar . I covered this in the video...
@@10swatkins I know that spindles are hollow. I was once a designer at Standard Modern in Toronto. I know lathes. Still, it takes a lot of force to damage one.
@@matthewmcdaid7962 Big chuck, high speed, that's a lotta mass to deal with compared to a collet or even a faceplate & dog.
I'm having serious audio issues with these last two videos, very clippy
Which ones please.. I was having a mic problem with a few but a new mic took care of the problem.... Also I just had a major heart attack and when I get winded I am a little choppy with my words...
@@10swatkins oh I had no idea, hope you're able to rest up, I'll put you in my evening prayer. I think I just noticed on this one and the last one
Don't know if it is my hearing aids or your audio, but it is difficult to make out what you are saying.
IT was a bad mic on my main camera... I tried to fix it in post but it really sucked... New mic is here and in use now :)
Ive seen plenty of bent spindles over the years, but never on a EE. Such a small machine, not sure how you could bend it.. The newer spindle drive retrofits are using servo motors, much smoother than a std AC motor, and no more $$$$ power vacuum tubes.
Operator gets distracted, runs a chuck with extended jaws into a tool post at 3000 rpm.... Screws up the taper so bad that the chuck won't run straight and rips one of the crossfeed dovetails off. He is afraid the Boss will fire him, gets out the grinder and grinds off enough taper to straighten it up and then finds he has had to shorten the taper so much the chuck will not draw enough to seat the chuck on the taper, which is now 1/8" too short.. A little foil tape stuffed into the chuck and it somewhat fits now and he might get away with it.... Now the inside taper is 2 thousands off but who uses that anyway :(
Hello Sir. Have you not rather established that the axle must be out of alignment with the bedways? If I understand your procedure correctly, you took a measurement at either end of the spindle. Between two points of measurement I suppose there to be a straight line and unless I can take a third in between that proves not to be on that same line, I think concluding that the spindle is bent is not justified.
Not if the two points are on the top or bottom of the shaft and the head is on the ways. Then you are measuring distance from the ground bed and not alignment of the head on the way.
Pull the bearings out and post the numbers, I will see what I can find for you. Work at a bearing distributor.
It's a special flanged bearing made for Monarch...
Since it can't be used to any precision at this time I would still push the spindle straight with a hydraulic press. I could live with the bearings if everything stood to 1/2 ten thousandths after putting it back in after the push. That nose piece is useless.
This machine took a HUGE hit... broke castings in the cross feed, bent the spindle and I don't think there is any way those bearings are going to be ok :(
@@10swatkins
I think you might be a bit “bearing happy”.
Try to be more optimistic. 😎
Couldn’t finish it sound kept cutting in out
Sorry, It was a bad mic... Have tracked the problem down and not a problem anymore....
sometimes it had to sacrifice 1 to make the others live. if that spindle is fubar. no replacement option. why not sell the other parts to other "monarch gangs" to fix theirs? may be a bit of here and there can fill a bit of that 6000 money pit too.
IT's not mine to fix, the owner needs to make that choice and after 5 years he still is on the fence...
Double EE's weren't that great IMHO when they were new. I served my apprenticeship in a shop and we had several. In 86 I went into sales and applications and have been in a lot of military shops that had them. The story is always the same...spindle drive issues. A Hardinge dovetail toolroom lathe is a better choice. Monarch is a company that should have been better but they disappointed a lot of customers.
Monarch lost my vote when they bought out Axelson and shut them down a year later because they were better... Same thing with Auto Desk buying out Generic Cad ! Still pissed about that !
@@10swatkins Autodesk kills everything they touch. Always liked American lathes.
@@10swatkins Didn't you mean say Lodge & Shipley? The Axelson family just shut the lathe company down. Veet claimed to bought them from the Axelson family, but two others had claimed, too.
I'm always leery of machines that look too clean and pretty.
Kinda like that Mexican Rebuild Bridgeport you showed a while back.
Mexican Rebuild = Throw a coat of paint on it and call it rebuilt.
You could Repair the ground down spindle nose by welding and re grinding
press the spindle straight ir as straight as you can get it ! get it out of your head that the lathe is junk...it's not fix the damn thing !
I could probably make a new perfect spindle in less time than trying to fix this one.
You would have to weld up the inside and outside, grind the outside and inside taper, try to straiten a hollow spindle with thin walls and then heat treat it and grind it to get it back to tolerances.. THEN you get to pay for new bearings, repair the crashed saddle and cross feed and then spend about 1100 for the repairs to the motor system... I'd rather go fishing :)
The audio is so bad that it is not worth watching.
Sorry , it was a bad mic. problem has been found and 180.00 later a new mic is in use...
if you dont work in .001 plus or minus and not .0001 you could get buy with 1/2 the cost bearings, actually if you want .0001 and a 20 micron finish buy a new machine !!!
Well it's not mine so I don't know what he will accept... But if he is happy with a less precise machine then he should just look around for a Southbend Heavy 10. He could find one of those for a lot less than fixing this one back up to standards..
And Don sys you lie a lot? Maybe your answers don't line up with his statements, recon? That is a bad deal BUT if it needs to be true, it blamed well better be. And yes, shafts are straightened every day BUT like you said, that one is shot. GBWYall!
Don has a pretty good memory.... For an old Fart :)
@@10swatkins He ought to. Hermits usually do!