One of the best shows as it burst the cloud with a silver lining the News puts around the Rail industry and the trade Unions todo with all the passenger rail companies and helps to give up dates on Rail projects such as HST2. Enjoying watching the show from North Yorkshire
Hello Chris and Richard, firstly can I thank you for providing such an amazing service. This country is very lucky to have such brilliant railway information available, you truly are a worthy asset to the railway community. However, working in the health sector, your ASLEF interview, made my blood boil! Thanks again for your impeccable service!
My daughter works for the Hampshire County Council in the care sector, doing home care on return from hospital, community care type work. They have no allocations for travel time, from Newbury to Bordon, Basingstoke to Liphook and Alton, and they’re expected to be there in their own vehicles in no time at all. They get no breaks and no driving time. On the railway we have everything worked out, booked walking time, booked mobilisation time, and booked breaks to deal with timetables, fatigue and also scheduling, because everything does take time. If you don’t plan it, the job goes to pot. Breaks are booked because time ‘in the seat’ is worked out to give sufficient rest between workings and time to eat your food, use the loo, keep hydrated, and remain alert when in control of trains. Lord Hidden had a lot to do with working times etc. Another great show and great interviews. Thanks again 👍
Only managed to watch half of the show so far, but top rate stuff. Richard asked some great questions to Mick. I've followed railways for 50 years and Green Signals still continues to educate me on this subject. Keep em coming gents and lass, and on time!!!
Very much enjoyed the feature on the island line particularly as I surveyed all the structures on the railway back in the 2000s. I assume Richard does all the video editing and I have to say they look really good! Have to say it is odd that such small communities with a good road network are served by a railway when there are much larger communities on the mainland which aren’t! Regards Paul
Thanks Paul and great to know you did all that work back then! Thanks for your kind words re the video editing - to be honest, Final Cut Pro makes life a lot easier than the task would have been 20 years ago!
Another great interview with Mick who knows his brief. Great discussion on walking times. Some things really are micro managed to destruction! He really has strong words on LNER. Surely it is the companies job to try and mitigate strike impact but without upsetting anyone or breaking agreements. Great HS2 viaducts but wish some of the unnecessary tunnels could be replaced with cuttings. Bit hard to stop deer as they can leap over fences! Almost seems like building a new pier for Ryde would almost be cheaper and less disruptive. Still amazed the previous schemes failed to deliver a 30 min service due to seemingly poor design and planning. Pity you didn't ask about the misplaced passing loop affecting frequency. Another diverse and interesting episode.
Well done once again. If you have time please can you investigate why South Western Trains are still using 40 year old trains, with new ones sitting in the Sidings?
Thanks from us all at The Independent Brigg Line Rail Group. 1. An absolutely fascinating interview with Mick Whelan, Green Signals certainly needs to do more of these one to one interviewes, the timing of the announcement of industrial action was not the best, what happened to ACAS, hopefully it will resolved soon. 2. The refurbishment of the voyagers is welcome and gives job security in Derby, however these trains are not suitable for cross-country, and should be filtered down to other train providers, will the refurbishment tackle the issue of the smelly toilets ? 3. you have to look at the bigger picture when looking at public transport, the Isle of Wight line provides a service which people use, it is not their fault that large sections of the network were closed in the 1960s, they are utilising what they have to the best of their ability, and if it means spending money to keep the infrastructure going then so be it. If Richard likes visiting piers, he should go to Southend where they've had problems with their railway and their new trains.
Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed the discussion with Mick. We do plan to plenty more of these kind of interviews - they are so popular and usually quite enlightening! I agree re the toilets - I do hope they get resolved. And I agree re the Island Line. It's a pity it doesn't go to Newport (although the IOW Steam Railway do a great job on the section they have) but it provides a great service on the bit that remains. Cheers Richard
Northerners struggle with Midland placenames, the Malvern Hills, pronounced Maul Vern not Mall (to rhyme with Al) Vern. Though they get their own back with Slaithwaite and Masham.
Mick Whelan is "plain speaking" without needing to be offensive or resort to stereotypes that others usually described as "plain speaking" seem to feel the need to. He just states the truth as he sees it with no need for hyperbolic language or bluffing. Just speaking in straightforward facts. He's always excellent to listen to. Whilst I agree with Nigel's point about optics; surely being from a media background he must ask himself what role the media must play in all this? Why ARE the likes of The Daily Mail telling porkies?
Re the last point it is intriguing to understand how any urban myth (not just ones relating to railways) take root and are repeated so that they become accepted wisdom and eventually, fact.
I'd love for you to do an episode as I can't find it in your history as to why or why we can't have driverless trains. If we can have planes fly on autopilot (pilot there or not) for over 15 hours day in day out without crashing then why are trains exempt from this.
ASLEF is an anagram for "Total complete Barst'd" - Mike, The Young Ones. I can't wait until drivers are replaced by automatic trains. It's already done in Copenhagen metro, Vancouver Skytrain and the DLR.
Thanks for all the great episodes As a life long user and fan of the railways I now try to avoid using them whenever possible. A recent senior retiree has just told me they have left an industry where management and staff simply couldnt care less anymore. Very sadly, it seems to be the case. Anyway, please keep up the good work
Interesting to hear that VivaRail didn't deliver all the features they were contracted to on the class 484s. Good job the Island Line were a bit more self sufficient though, especially given the sister class 230 on the Bedford-Bletchley Marston Vale line caused removal of the rail service completely for many, many months as LNR had contracted the maintenance out to VR.
Once a business goes into administration, whether there are contractual commitments or not, everything changes completely. The Administrators are running the business, something that's not confined to railways, but to any business in administration. Cheers.
Thanks guys, another excellent episode. I agree with Nigel about the optics of settling on a not insubstantial salary increase. The separate dispute with LNER also doesn’t look good when it’s clear the majority of their drivers can now afford to only work 4 days a week. As is to be expected, Mick defended the union position; he cleverly sidestepped the pension question by making the point that FS schemes are based in an average and not a drivers final salary on retirement. I think there will be issues for the scheme’s actuaries to worry about.
Thanks Gordon. Yes, with Pensions, Mick didn't really answer that question but we had a lot to get through so we moved on. However - we will be returning to the issue of Pensions in a future show.
@@GreenSignals excellent, whilst some working conditions are far from being ideal, a final salary pension scheme is a huge benefit which many parts of the media ignore in favour of silly things like the microwave and the need to visit a doctor. Was one of BRs principle risks back in 1994, that pay settlements to drivers would, quickly, drain the pension scheme surpluses.
@@amazoniaamazonia7225 some TOC schemes have indeed converted, but existing members, in some schemes, were able to retain final salary pensions. But yes, as a broad rule, all new entrants will have defined benefits.
Great question again I thought visiting the library at the national rail museum would arm myself with a few more answers and possibly a few questions but no a look in the children’s section would have got this one I read some that series of books years ago on a long train from Langley mill to Stranraer in the 1980’s
Tut tut! Not been to the IoW? Nigel has missed out on a great preserved line too. Not only have I travelled on the "old 1938 stock" on the IoW, I have also travelled on the "old old 1926 stock"!
@@GreenSignals - In my early days in the NSE rolling stock drawing office my first electrical wiring diagram was the number one equipment case on the newly converted 1938 stock! I remember having a couple of work visits to Ryde depot to look one over and make notes. When the drawing was traced onto film by one of the tracers I kept the original. Still got it rolled up in my archives!
I think Nigel would love the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, and he could go and see and sit in one of the former Island Line 483s too, and if they manage to get it moving somehow, as they have said they plan to do at some point in the future, even better.
I would withdraw the latest pay offer and reduce it by 4%. The level of dishonesty shown by aslef is unacceptable. They actually knew they were planning to strike as they have the impression they had settled.
All good and well but passengers will still be sitting on floors or standing for entire journeys. If it was a choice I would take extra carriages over a refurbishment. Long term they need to look at full length Meridians when they become available and normalise minimum 7+car units.
Good old Island Line. 8 months overrun on the initial upgrade. No work on the pier during this first closure. After the grand reopening it was quietly announced the pier would have to close for the refurb. Great timing as it coincided with the old tram pier being converted into a walkway. So two sets of contractors setting up at the pierhead with all their site huts and storage areas. Multiple car park spaces removed inconveniencing commuters. To get access to the tramway parts of the roadway were obstructed. So temporarily lights were employed. These lights gave priority to pedestrians and were manually controlled. Always held vehicles while foot passengers walked. It was actually quicker to walk the pier than to catch the rail replacement minibus. £26M investment with promises of 30 minute timetable and 4 car trains. I assume money was spent on the substations as rumour was they were knackered. 4 car trains ran initially as there were significant passenger numbers. How do you run a 30 minute service if your passing loop isn't dead in the middle of the line? You terminate one of the trains at Ryde Esplanade. So it doesn't connect with the fast cat. And if the previous fast cat is late you have a 50 minute wait. How much of the £26M was spent on permanent way? Ride definitely improved but how much track was actually replaced? How does a train service compete when local buses have a £2 flat fare? Signalling failures are a regular occurrence. Axle box counters not counting correctly... Previous electrical fires with the third rail. Regular trespassers who stop the service. Always something in the local rag about service suspension. And it's been open how long and they are dealing with tyre wear. Really? Due to work that wasn't completed? How did it get signed off then?
Your point about the minibus was well made. Even when they or taxis were meant to be in evidence, on many occasions I found that they were either non-existent or had already left the Pier Head by the time I got off the FastCat!
In "catch-up mode" this week. Good to see you both in the same room. Catching up from a beach in Santorini (which I thought was in Italy until my good lady put me right). You have to hand it to the rail unions. They play a blinder for their members. Personally, I think the strategy is that the unions know new technology will drastically reduce their membership and power, and they're making as much hay while the sun shines in the meantime. Of course, this is of no consolation to the long suffering fare-paying public. To be frank, I think poor management is at the heart of the IR problems on the railways. However, the pay & LNER disputes are completely separate. Shame LNER didn't accept your invitation to put their side of the argument, as having listened to Mr W, LNER seem to be the villans. Mr Bowker: another excellent interview, this time with Mr Whelan. You ask great questions and then give your guest the space to put his/her argument, and then follow up with incisive supplimentaries. Parkinson-esque. Nigel: it's "ball-saul" common. PS: I was the chap who proposed the GWR Praire class numbers as the answer to the quiz!
Thanks Stephen - am so sorry about forgetting who had come up with that terrific suggestion on Prairies - I just remember it when we recording, but not who. Will correct next week (assuming I remember!). Thanks for your kind words re the interview. The Parky reference is high praise indeed! Cheers. Richard
Do we know if the present Government will sell the land that was bought for HS2 to Crewe? Have all the cancellation costs already been incurred? Surely the Government should accept that a line like HS2 will be built at some point in the future.
As far as we understand, there has been very little movement on the sale of land - but that’s likely down to be it being a complex process rather than a political decision to go slow.
Great video again, but I need your help buying train tickets using an app. Could you perhaps find out for us why it has suddenly become so difficult to buy tickets online. I tried to buy a ticket on the National Rail app but there is no longer a link to purchase there now. I then tried using the Trainline app but that forced me to collect from a station rather than save it to a phone. What has changed? How do you simply buy a ticket to ride on your lauded Elizabeth line if you don't live near an Elizabeth line station. It seems its not railway but tube line, and the ticketing has taken us back to the early reign of the old Queen herself.
Wow, what a fascinating episode! Thank you chaps and chapess. I just have to comment! I welcomed the interview with Mick Whelan, even though I found myself getting somewhat, em, 'agitated' at his responses to some of your questions Richard. All I will say is that I agree with you both, ie that the optics could not look worse with the announcement of the latest ASLEF strike. I live my working and social life using trains and have been more than inconvenienced over the last couple of years, and the prospect of further disruption on LNER routes only gets me to scream 'God bless Lumo!'. As for the interviews on the Isle of Wight, these interest me greatly as I have to go over there frequently. It's a wonderful railway and in my humble opinion it would be a great loss to the island if it closed. And how ludicrous that would be as it has already had a recent £26M upgrade, which has improved virtually every station and built a new passing loop at Brading! The only issue with it has been with timetabling. The promised half hour operation has not materialised and the dwell time when meeting the FastCat ferry at Ryde has been cut, frequently resulting in passengers being stranded at the Pier Head for at least an hour! But hey ho, best of luck with the new works. However, Neil Drury confused me somewhat as he spoke of trialling four car operation? Well, when the 'new' trains were introduced, they were using four car trains! If you don't believe me, here's my own RUclips video of them... ruclips.net/video/a81aJVhBmMo/видео.html Best wishes, Dave
Thanks Dave. I did think Neil had explained the issue with wheel wear / braking / electronics and the fact that after the mods they had to re-test with 4 cars - so sorry if that was confusing. I am hoping to chat to Neil again quite soon - so we will revisit the point when we do and make sure it is all clear! Cheers. Richard
@@GreenSignals Great. Incidentally, as a PS a few weeks later, on the first day of suspension of the Island Line last Friday, the rail replacement bus I caught was very late and it missed the minibus that goes up the pier to meet the FastCat ferry, not that apparently I could have got it anyway as it was already full up! Not merely stating this as a gripe, and it may not be an issue for Neil himself anyway, but this aspect, ie getting up and down the pier to meet the FastCat when the Island Line is off, is ALWAYS the weak link in the chain! So I and others will be using the hovercraft instead for the next few months as that journey excludes the need to use the pier and links with the Esplanade Station.
It’s interesting that Mick Whelan is prepared to be interviewed whilst LNER are not. There’s no doubt there are good staff in train operating companies but it does seem that on occasions strings are being pulled knowing they will test industrial relations. I think back to the Southern guard dispute in the mid 2000’s. As the strikes are at the weekend does this imply that LNER does not have a 7 day working week agreement wand Sundays are operated by drivers voluntarily?
I'm not sure if you or anyone else here can address this query about HS2. I've been documenting the progress of the project in the Aylesbury area for 3 years now and on the A418 Oxford Road, Aylesbury there is an overbridge that is nearing completion which a realigned Oxford Road will go over. Since Dec 2023 planning permission for the bridge parapets has had the status of 'awaiting decision' on Buckinghamshire Council's planning portal. This has meant that the contractors have clamped the parapets in place temporarily whilst waiting for planning permission. I wonder if this kind of situation is happening a lot up and down the route. If that is the case, are these delays costing more money? As for the bridge parapets in question, I have yet to find out what the issue is with them as they conform to the same design as any other bridge along the route. Thoughts?
Hi Karl. Wouldn't know something quite as detailed as that - but have you tried writing to HS2 and the property team there? They are excellent and would I am sure point you in the right direction.
Another excellent watch many thanks indeed. Just a question I cannot see on RUclips how to join, I have subscribed to the channel and the mailing list? A little confused.
Hi Andrew, I think I've seen that you've now joined on Patreon, so hopefully you're all sorted, but drop us an email on info@greensignals.org if you're still having trouble.
I was surprised you didn't touch on RMT saying they wanted to reopen their wage agreement for Guards because ASLEF got 1% more than they did. Roll on Automated Metro's, you cant come soon enough.
If you are pinning any hopes on train automation, then apart from self contained metros, i fear you may be waiting for quite a while. We need to find a better way to resolve disputes....
We went from Ryde to shaklin last week a day rover was about £6 though what must be the cheapest difference I've ever seen with an off peak return £5.50 and anytime return £5.70 The connections at smallbrook junction could be better . on that subject what's about a top ten of the worsts timetabled connections in the country?
🤯 the statement from Mick that LNER is not the best run railway company (with the management strong-arming the workforce) blows my mind and reduces my confidence in GBR actually being successful or making a difference. 😭😭😭
LNER have had plenty of time to recruit and train enough drivers to cover the day to day service but they'd rather plug the gaps using managers and harassing and bullying drivers to work their days off.
I laughed though when Mick admitted that the drivers he accused of being scabs and working for a 'bounty' were paid exactly the same £500 a day as drivers working a normal Saturday.
@@watcherzero5256As I understand it, the £500 bonus is only being paid to the managers, and it’s on top of being paid what a driver would normally get for working a rest day. The crux of the issue is that a manager, who is already paid nearly double what a driver is, is being paid an additional day’s wages, plus another £500, to cover staff shortages.
Despite his claims that he's used a green screen, he has actually been to the island! He did a video on the Island Line nearly three years ago, so we still can't forgive Nigel I'm afraid!
At the risk of ruining the joke by explaining it: Geoff has a running gag about never having been to the Isle of Wight which he repeats even in videos from the Isle of Wight.
Mick Whelan talking sense as usual, the worsening industrial relations with LNER coupled with the doubling down on the so called fare simplification begs the question if LNER have a hidden agenda
I'm not sure there's a hidden agenda at all - the people I know at LNER are very good. I think there is some hangover from the previous Government approach so lets hope that begins to change.
It’s clear that the LNER management have issues and it’s a shame that the drivers have been put in this position when good progress has been made over pay, rest assured this matter will be resolved before any industrial action has to take place.
While ASLEF's grievances might be valid, I agree that the optics are awful. And p-ing off the Labour government and so many Labour voters so early on is a bit of a (rare) political mistake by the union. If I was the the SoS I'd be in 'very hacked off and defensive' mode now, and much less amenable to the union's demands.
In the end the LNER dispute depends on the quality of management running the organisation. I couldn’t see this happening when it was GNER with Christopher Garnets management team. And the key word here is ‘team’. Railway work is team work requiring all parts of the organisation to pull together. Agreements between workers and management are robustly negotiated. But once made should be adhered to. In this instance it looks as though this hasn’t been the case. It may be seen as justifiable to use your driver managers to run trains on strike days but to carry on after because you don’t have enough drivers is a failure of management in itself. Breaking agreements creates a toxic environment in the work place which impacts morale, respect for the management as a whole and feeds all the way down to impact passengers.
As excellent as Chris Garnett was, and I knew him well, that was an era of growth and very limited civil service interference and meddling. A different world indeed.
I'd like to know what the average LNER train driver earns currently. If they are on the widely stated sum in the papers of £80k basic plus over time then I don't know why they would want any more money because it will all go on tax. If they really are on that wage then these strikes are taking the piss!
On LNER dispute, while there may be other valid points - part of Aslef's complaint seems to be that the employer has staff competent to drive trains, that are driving trains, but have manager in their job title.... Last time I checked closed shops had been made illegal, so the employer would be quite right to push back on this point and tell aslef to foxtrot oscar on this particular point of the dispute.
I think you are confusing issues here. A closed shop relates to a mandatory obligation to join a Trades Union. That's a very different issue to agreements on who can do what.
I think you are confusing issues here. A closed shop relates to a mandatory obligation to join a Trades Union. That's a very different issue to agreements on who can do what.
@@GreenSignals Well, to me, it seems to be sailing quite close to it - in that there are a number of employees with the competency to do a task - and the union that represents the vast majority of them with one job title is objecting to another group of employees with the competency (who are not members of that union), carrying out a task they have the competency to do ? If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.
As I see it Aslef need to tread carefully on this Public opinion was reasonably supportive of the strike action over pay rises,however this new round of action coming right on top of a settlement offer looks like it's not going to win any friends,that's me putting it mildly, SOS must of been fuming when this dropped A week is a long time in politics however the memories of this will last well into GBR I feel.
How to fix industrial relations.... same as network rail, pay the same person 450 quid a day for the same job but on a 0 hours contract and no perks or pension. The half a million I earned in the last 5 years was way better than any strike pay, free rail travel or pension I got!
Playing devil's advocate regarding the LNER dispute, as Mick pointed out and you chaps acknowledged, it is an existing dispute separate to the pay deal, would it not be unreasonable to think that Louise Haigh might have been made aware of it already by ASLEF, and so the heat in her office and Nigel's view of the optics may possibly be overestimated? Perhaps that would have been another good question to ask Mick? On a simpler note, thank you once again for delivering an excellent programme. Long may you continue! 🙂
The Train Drivers pay increase is a very sore point in our house. My wife is a local authority solicitor in adult social care on very low pay no final salary pension. Whatever Mick Wheelen says doesn't hold water with us. Mr Grandfather was a senior NUM official he always said that nobody wins with striking and he use to try and talk them out of it. The question is are they overpaid already?
@@amazoniaamazonia7225 Yes thats private practice for you. But as my wife says you are paying for help and advice. £230 / hour is cheap. But my wife only gets paid £50000 / year at our local authority. so Train drivers @ 70000/year is a lot for an unqualified (not university educated) Bus drivers don't get that.
It is not good that your wife is on low pay with no final salary pension. But it seems that you are advocating that this should be the norm for everyone rather than your wife being paid fairly for what is a very responsible job with a good final salary at the end. Isn’t this what everyone should be aspiring to?
Great episode as always, I quite liked you both being together in person it had a relaxed talk show vibe to it, something you could imagine getting a slot on mainstream television. If the island line were to close then other forms of transport would need to be stepped up to take its place such as Buses with dedicated Lanes and high frequency like they do on the continent but also a much wider move in all areas away from car dependency, but also I think the question holds the potential for a wider discussion as to whether railways are essential infrastructure that need to operate regardless of whether they're 'commercially viable' especially as we need to increase the use of green transport as we move to net zero as simply replacing cars with electric cars is not a solution, not to mention that we NEVER scrutinize the cost of roads and associated infrastructure and just take it as Gospel, interesting that rail projects are now under scrutiny but that silly motorway under the thames is still happening and HS2 money is going to Potholes, It would also be optically bad to close an electric railway that would be replaced with diesel cars and busses and operating on this commercial model will not allow for the change that's needed, really a Keynesian approach should be taken to the Island line, that is, to expand it to Cowes and Newport as well as Bembridge and Freshwater, while further integrating it to buses and to disincentivise driving via pedestrianization and slower speed restrictions to increase its appeal, reach and ridership but also to provide routes not reliant on Piers and tunnels, which could hopefully grow the revenue and the local economy to pay for the more difficult infrastructure issues at Ryde. All of which of course is debatable and not achievable by a single organisation or TOC as well as a move away from car centrism in how we think about transport and urban planning which would never happen in managed decline ever shrinking budget Britain
Thanks! Some interesting ideas indeed re expanding the IOW rail network, though in fairness, the Southern Vectis network is very good. As to getting together to do the show, it was tremendous fun - the challenge is the 145 miles gap between where we live!
@@GreenSignals Yes, it has to be said that the bus network is absolutely excellent, and the Island Line complements it beautifully, especially for those living in the major towns of Sandown and Shanklin. It also has to be said that one huge benefit of the Island Line is that it connects with the Isle of Wight Steam Railway on their running days at Smallbrook Junction, which is a boon for eg day trippers to the island. As for expansion of the line, realistically I don't think it feasible to extend to eg Newport or Cowes - the only slight possibility is perhaps to extend the line to Ventnor, which could be relatively easy to do. But lets fix the current problems first!
Brilliant episode. More of the public should watch this interview with aslef they'll learn more than from our actual press. Shows how much of a joke the last Conservative government was.
and do you think this present government will be any better ??? if you do actually think this government will be better option- then you are a seriously kind of stupid !!
Close the island line for good! How very dare you suggest such, stop giving them ideas! im sure though you could find a group of accountants that would eventually conclude the line to be financial unviable. Then once closed we would be talking how it will cost 1billon to reopen 😮
You don't need an accountant to tell you it's financially viable as it is self evidently not - indeed one would struggle to find a railway line that it is. We continue to operate railway lines for other non-financial, social reasons. No more so perhaps than the Island Line. But I was only teasing - I think it would be a terrible shame if it closed. I suspect the monies being spent on it at the moment ensure that's not going to be a debate for many years to come.
Nigel/richard dont forget GWR getting the class 175 fleet one of the worst kept secrets on the uk rail network. They are great units if they are looked after as Alstom proved
@@mattsub1 I'm sorry I done managers a disservice....not toxic management.....but a over Riding culture from a proportion of management that permeates thothout the industry to the point where the good management has difficulty swimming against the tide and give up and swim with the nasty fish....not just a key board basher sat at home been nasty but a rail worker from 16 year old who retired a few years ago as I could see the tsunami presure building up so took early retirement as (from a job I loved) to bail out...as a parting shot from middle management refused out of petty jealousy and incumbent nastyness to allow me to take my owed leave before retirement date out of petty spite...thanks to local aslef reps finally sorted but what a bitter end to happy days on the job....(not a isolated incident and many othe in industry will have there own story) so toxic culture YEP!.....then both sides dig in and then in the mess we are in now! Why was there so many years where driver strikes where avoided? And now so many? Disgruntled staff brassed off under appreciated not surprised they will vent! There is no quick fix to the problem as its been years in the making but the good management now have to swim harder as the good will of the staff has been bashed So now I can do my jobs at home listening to green signals blessing my pension pot thinking how lucky I was....love pod casts chaps keep it up
@@GreenSignals yep ...quite agree with a healthy discussion! Love the railway but its abit sour at the moment hence disruption....hopefully normal railway service will resume and railways can become a happy place to live and work
Regarding the ASLEF industrial action, it has now helped me decide on how I shall travel to South Wales to visit my sister in a few weeks. I had seriously considered rail travel from Norfolk via King's Cross and using the Underground to Paddington- in itself difficult as I now use a small mobility scooter. Reaching the Underground at King's Cross was much easier before it was rebuilt. I have now decided that due to the continuing uncertainty over rail services, the only option is to drive (despite the ridiculous 20mph speed limits in Wales). A real shame as I used to love rail travel. I may however, whilst I am in South Wales, have a ride on one of TfW's new trains to Cardiff (a possible jolly for Richard & Nigel in a future program when the Taff's Well depot is complete?)
That's a pity Mervyn. I understand your frustration but I feel we do need to keep the faith where possible and travel by train as much as we can. Agree with you re the new South Wales metro. Looking forward to seeing that myself very soon! Cheers
Big thanks to you guys (Inc Stef) at Green Signals for another great programme. I understand your unstated sentiment about the LNER industrial action, noting your comment about LNER striving to prove they can still break ASLEF strikes and operate trains. Yes, it is very important to provide a service for the pax who have to pay exorbitant fares for the privilege. However, I challenge the choice LNER make to pay £500 per shift premiums to contingent staff to operate trains in non strike conditions. In my opinion the contingent premiums paid to non traincrew do absolutely nothing to promote relations
Thanks for your thoughts Phil, but I think you may have stretched our sentiments (unstated or otherwise!) to breaking point there! We tried to present a balanced picture and I think it's of a stretch to suggest we were saying that LNER had been striving to prove they could 'break' strikes! Not what we were saying at all. Yes, LNER would have been trying to do everything they could to minimise the impact and even Mick accepted that was understandable to an extent. In the end though, it is people sitting down together that will resolve this so lets all hope that is indeed what happens. Cheers.
For me there are 2 main issues: 1/ Train drivers have no more responsibility than Bus or Coach Drivers. In fact the rails and signals to do the job and its one way lanes only, so they HAVE less stress etc. BUT because ASLEF has gained a lot of clout since 1948 Nationalisation, their wages are far far higher than Bus and Coach drivers and with better conditions. 2/ Management are no doubt worse than ever, but work in the private sector to see how hard it can be [Dont tell me the railways of Britain are really Private please]. When Harold Wilson dished out money to the Miners, The powerworkers warned that he would have to pay out the same to them and other public workers. My Father's single month net pay packet [with back pay] was almost the same as my annual take home!!!. My dad said it was bloody silly, it was and it is and inflationary. Times dont change for some do they, let alone their defined benefits and superannuation .
I’m afraid that having sat in the driving cab of a train many times (not driving I hasten to add!) I am always reminded, each time, how complex and technically hard is the task. It is not correct IMHO to say they have no more responsibility than a bus driver. I think we need to see if we can do a video to lay this one to rest. More to follow…..!
That must be hard £500 to work weekend,s, the term ASELF is antiquated, how many firemen you got Whelen? The sooner they automate train,s the better, holding the country to ransome, highest fares in Europe, dinosaur.
and clearly your ignorance is matched by only your extreme stupidity ,you dumb c**t if you think the high train fares are down to ASLEF !! but do remember that jellyfish have managed to survive for the last 650 million years WITHOUT a brain- so that thought should give YOU some real, clear hope -you rsole !!
I fear that if you are pinning your hopes on automation, you are likely to be very disappointed. Only people working together will resolve disputes, Steve.
An interesting podcast... it would be so much better though if Nigel could keep his right wing anti trade union views out of the program. RIchard manages it and always comes across neutral and unbiased, let people make up their own minds.
Totally disagree. He might have DIFFERENT views than the TU but that does NOT make him anti union. It’s that type of comment that typifies all the current social/political/woke issues in the UK today.
Don't be daft. You have no idea what my politics are and would doubtless be surprised if you did. I simply call it as I see it. I em entitled both to an opinion and to express irt. Which I shall continue to do. What a pity that you seem to wish to hear only an echo chamber of your own views!! But thankyou for you listening and telling us what you think. Appreciate that.
One of the best shows as it burst the cloud with a silver lining the News puts around the Rail industry and the trade Unions todo with all the passenger rail companies and helps to give up dates on Rail projects such as HST2. Enjoying watching the show from North Yorkshire
Thanks Tom - appreciate the feedback!
Hello Chris and Richard, firstly can I thank you for providing such an amazing service. This country is very lucky to have such brilliant railway information available, you truly are a worthy asset to the railway community.
However, working in the health sector, your ASLEF interview, made my blood boil!
Thanks again for your impeccable service!
Thanks Robert - and apologies for causing you blood pressure issues!
My daughter works for the Hampshire County Council in the care sector, doing home care on return from hospital, community care type work. They have no allocations for travel time, from Newbury to Bordon, Basingstoke to Liphook and Alton, and they’re expected to be there in their own vehicles in no time at all. They get no breaks and no driving time. On the railway we have everything worked out, booked walking time, booked mobilisation time, and booked breaks to deal with timetables, fatigue and also scheduling, because everything does take time. If you don’t plan it, the job goes to pot. Breaks are booked because time ‘in the seat’ is worked out to give sufficient rest between workings and time to eat your food, use the loo, keep hydrated, and remain alert when in control of trains. Lord Hidden had a lot to do with working times etc.
Another great show and great interviews. Thanks again 👍
As ever, some really excellent points there!
Only managed to watch half of the show so far, but top rate stuff. Richard asked some great questions to Mick. I've followed railways for 50 years and Green Signals still continues to educate me on this subject. Keep em coming gents and lass, and on time!!!
Cheers! And yes, we aim to ensure our right time performance is excellent and we hit our PPM targets.....!
Very much enjoyed the feature on the island line particularly as I surveyed all the structures on the railway back in the 2000s. I assume Richard does all the video editing and I have to say they look really good! Have to say it is odd that such small communities with a good road network are served by a railway when there are much larger communities on the mainland which aren’t! Regards Paul
Thanks Paul and great to know you did all that work back then!
Thanks for your kind words re the video editing - to be honest, Final Cut Pro makes life a lot easier than the task would have been 20 years ago!
Another great interview with Mick who knows his brief. Great discussion on walking times. Some things really are micro managed to destruction! He really has strong words on LNER. Surely it is the companies job to try and mitigate strike impact but without upsetting anyone or breaking agreements.
Great HS2 viaducts but wish some of the unnecessary tunnels could be replaced with cuttings.
Bit hard to stop deer as they can leap over fences!
Almost seems like building a new pier for Ryde would almost be cheaper and less disruptive. Still amazed the previous schemes failed to deliver a 30 min service due to seemingly poor design and planning.
Pity you didn't ask about the misplaced passing loop affecting frequency.
Another diverse and interesting episode.
Thanks Allan. As ever, excellent points and questions!
Love the effort to the production of this channel
That’s really kind of you- thanks!
Another great show perfection personified
Goodness, you have us blushing at such a complement!
Well done once again. If you have time please can you investigate why South Western Trains are still using 40 year old trains, with new ones sitting in the Sidings?
We will be looking at new train procurement very soon!
Thanks from us all at The Independent Brigg Line Rail Group.
1. An absolutely fascinating interview with Mick Whelan, Green Signals certainly needs to do more of these one to one interviewes, the timing of the announcement of industrial action was not the best, what happened to ACAS, hopefully it will resolved soon.
2. The refurbishment of the voyagers is welcome and gives job security in Derby, however these trains are not suitable for cross-country, and should be filtered down to other train providers, will the refurbishment tackle the issue of the smelly toilets ?
3. you have to look at the bigger picture when looking at public transport, the Isle of Wight line provides a service which people use, it is not their fault that large sections of the network were closed in the 1960s, they are utilising what they have to the best of their ability, and if it means spending money to keep the infrastructure going then so be it.
If Richard likes visiting piers, he should go to Southend where they've had problems with their railway and their new trains.
Thanks so much!
Glad you enjoyed the discussion with Mick. We do plan to plenty more of these kind of interviews - they are so popular and usually quite enlightening!
I agree re the toilets - I do hope they get resolved.
And I agree re the Island Line. It's a pity it doesn't go to Newport (although the IOW Steam Railway do a great job on the section they have) but it provides a great service on the bit that remains.
Cheers Richard
Watching from Brisbane, Queensland. Thoroughly enjoyed this weeks episode. Can't believe Nigel hasn't been the Isle of Wight in so long! 😂
Hello in Brisbane. Wonderful city!
'It's not good optics'. An understatement.
I actually said: "the optics are AWFUL!"
The correct pronunciation of Ballsall Common is "Bawsall" Common, at least how everyone I know in the area to the west of the place call it.
Thanks Simon!
Northerners struggle with Midland placenames, the Malvern Hills, pronounced Maul Vern not Mall (to rhyme with Al) Vern. Though they get their own back with Slaithwaite and Masham.
@@simonwadsworth6472 Wait til you get down to the Cotswolds!
Thanks!
Thank you Colin. That's very kind indeed.
Mick Whelan is "plain speaking" without needing to be offensive or resort to stereotypes that others usually described as "plain speaking" seem to feel the need to. He just states the truth as he sees it with no need for hyperbolic language or bluffing. Just speaking in straightforward facts. He's always excellent to listen to.
Whilst I agree with Nigel's point about optics; surely being from a media background he must ask himself what role the media must play in all this? Why ARE the likes of The Daily Mail telling porkies?
Re the last point it is intriguing to understand how any urban myth (not just ones relating to railways) take root and are repeated so that they become accepted wisdom and eventually, fact.
I don't need to ask! Are you familiar with the old proverb about the scorpion and th4 frog?!
Mick Whelan is a dinosaur and a lying arsenole
I'd love for you to do an episode as I can't find it in your history as to why or why we can't have driverless trains. If we can have planes fly on autopilot (pilot there or not) for over 15 hours day in day out without crashing then why are trains exempt from this.
A very interesting question indeed so yes, we’ll pop it on the list - but it is a long list 😊
ASLEF is an anagram for "Total complete Barst'd" - Mike, The Young Ones. I can't wait until drivers are replaced by automatic trains. It's already done in Copenhagen metro, Vancouver Skytrain and the DLR.
Thanks for all the great episodes
As a life long user and fan of the railways I now try to avoid using them whenever possible. A recent senior retiree has just told me they have left an industry where management and staff simply couldnt care less anymore. Very sadly, it seems to be the case.
Anyway, please keep up the good work
That's sad (that you seek to avoid them) but let's all hope that GBR and the move to greater integration start to improve things.
Let's hope that new seats in Voyagers aren't harder than the present ones. Refurbed Pendolinos are not an improvement for the posterior!
Indeed, although I am in a minority as I rather like very firms seats.......
Thanks
Tha is Roddy. Really appreciated!
Interesting to hear that VivaRail didn't deliver all the features they were contracted to on the class 484s. Good job the Island Line were a bit more self sufficient though, especially given the sister class 230 on the Bedford-Bletchley Marston Vale line caused removal of the rail service completely for many, many months as LNR had contracted the maintenance out to VR.
Once a business goes into administration, whether there are contractual commitments or not, everything changes completely. The Administrators are running the business, something that's not confined to railways, but to any business in administration. Cheers.
Ya get the labor relations you deserve. Another great interview.
Cheers Bob
Thanks guys, another excellent episode. I agree with Nigel about the optics of settling on a not insubstantial salary increase. The separate dispute with LNER also doesn’t look good when it’s clear the majority of their drivers can now afford to only work 4 days a week. As is to be expected, Mick defended the union position; he cleverly sidestepped the pension question by making the point that FS schemes are based in an average and not a drivers final salary on retirement. I think there will be issues for the scheme’s actuaries to worry about.
Thanks Gordon. Yes, with Pensions, Mick didn't really answer that question but we had a lot to get through so we moved on. However - we will be returning to the issue of Pensions in a future show.
@@GreenSignals excellent, whilst some working conditions are far from being ideal, a final salary pension scheme is a huge benefit which many parts of the media ignore in favour of silly things like the microwave and the need to visit a doctor.
Was one of BRs principle risks back in 1994, that pay settlements to drivers would, quickly, drain the pension scheme surpluses.
@@gordondudman240Defined benefits not final salary.
@@amazoniaamazonia7225 some TOC schemes have indeed converted, but existing members, in some schemes, were able to retain final salary pensions. But yes, as a broad rule, all new entrants will have defined benefits.
Thanks. Got my mug today thank you. Have you thought of doing other merchandise such as polo shirts with the Green Signals logo on?
Excellent! Did feel slightly odd sending it from Devizes post office!
We are thinking of other merch - watch this space!
Great question again I thought visiting the library at the national rail museum would arm myself with a few more answers and possibly a few questions but no a look in the children’s section would have got this one I read some that series of books years ago on a long train from Langley mill to Stranraer in the 1980’s
Hmm - intriguing!
Tut tut! Not been to the IoW? Nigel has missed out on a great preserved line too. Not only have I travelled on the "old 1938 stock" on the IoW, I have also travelled on the "old old 1926 stock"!
Yep, me too! Loved my trip on the old 26 stock.....
@@GreenSignals - In my early days in the NSE rolling stock drawing office my first electrical wiring diagram was the number one equipment case on the newly converted 1938 stock! I remember having a couple of work visits to Ryde depot to look one over and make notes. When the drawing was traced onto film by one of the tracers I kept the original. Still got it rolled up in my archives!
I think Nigel would love the Isle of Wight Steam Railway, and he could go and see and sit in one of the former Island Line 483s too, and if they manage to get it moving somehow, as they have said they plan to do at some point in the future, even better.
I would withdraw the latest pay offer and reduce it by 4%. The level of dishonesty shown by aslef is unacceptable. They actually knew they were planning to strike as they have the impression they had settled.
Brilliant
Thanks John!
Let's hope the refurbished Voyagers have better sound insulation.
A not unreasonable hope.....
All good and well but passengers will still be sitting on floors or standing for entire journeys. If it was a choice I would take extra carriages over a refurbishment. Long term they need to look at full length Meridians when they become available and normalise minimum 7+car units.
@@daveymilo5432 Yes. Losing the HSTs was a serious knock to capacity as well as quality of the riding environment.
One of the things not mentioned by Mr Wheelan nor I think by yourselves is that DOR/OLR is actually run by a Private Company, in fact Franchised.
No, that’s not correct. DOHL is now 100% owned by DfT. No private sector / third party involvement. Changed in 2015 I believe.
Well, the join button actually worked without need of a consultation from the I/T guy. Thanks
Excellent! We're very pleased to have you with us.
Good old Island Line. 8 months overrun on the initial upgrade. No work on the pier during this first closure. After the grand reopening it was quietly announced the pier would have to close for the refurb. Great timing as it coincided with the old tram pier being converted into a walkway. So two sets of contractors setting up at the pierhead with all their site huts and storage areas. Multiple car park spaces removed inconveniencing commuters. To get access to the tramway parts of the roadway were obstructed. So temporarily lights were employed. These lights gave priority to pedestrians and were manually controlled. Always held vehicles while foot passengers walked. It was actually quicker to walk the pier than to catch the rail replacement minibus.
£26M investment with promises of 30 minute timetable and 4 car trains. I assume money was spent on the substations as rumour was they were knackered. 4 car trains ran initially as there were significant passenger numbers. How do you run a 30 minute service if your passing loop isn't dead in the middle of the line? You terminate one of the trains at Ryde Esplanade. So it doesn't connect with the fast cat. And if the previous fast cat is late you have a 50 minute wait. How much of the £26M was spent on permanent way? Ride definitely improved but how much track was actually replaced?
How does a train service compete when local buses have a £2 flat fare? Signalling failures are a regular occurrence. Axle box counters not counting correctly... Previous electrical fires with the third rail. Regular trespassers who stop the service. Always something in the local rag about service suspension.
And it's been open how long and they are dealing with tyre wear. Really? Due to work that wasn't completed? How did it get signed off then?
Your point about the minibus was well made. Even when they or taxis were meant to be in evidence, on many occasions I found that they were either non-existent or had already left the Pier Head by the time I got off the FastCat!
I do think Neil Drury explained quite a few of your points / frustrations in his interview.
In "catch-up mode" this week. Good to see you both in the same room.
Catching up from a beach in Santorini (which I thought was in Italy until my good lady put me right).
You have to hand it to the rail unions. They play a blinder for their members. Personally, I think the strategy is that the unions know new technology will drastically reduce their membership and power, and they're making as much hay while the sun shines in the meantime. Of course, this is of no consolation to the long suffering fare-paying public.
To be frank, I think poor management is at the heart of the IR problems on the railways. However, the pay & LNER disputes are completely separate. Shame LNER didn't accept your invitation to put their side of the argument, as having listened to Mr W, LNER seem to be the villans.
Mr Bowker: another excellent interview, this time with Mr Whelan. You ask great questions and then give your guest the space to put his/her argument, and then follow up with incisive supplimentaries. Parkinson-esque.
Nigel: it's "ball-saul" common.
PS: I was the chap who proposed the GWR Praire class numbers as the answer to the quiz!
Thanks Stephen - am so sorry about forgetting who had come up with that terrific suggestion on Prairies - I just remember it when we recording, but not who. Will correct next week (assuming I remember!).
Thanks for your kind words re the interview. The Parky reference is high praise indeed!
Cheers. Richard
Hi guys love the podcast the Balsall common is actually pronounced "Ballsall"
Thanks Stu
Irony, I came here thinking you were talking about the Canadian rail strikes. I guess everyone is unhappy.
Not confined to the UK then.
Do we know if the present Government will sell the land that was bought for HS2 to Crewe? Have all the cancellation costs already been incurred? Surely the Government should accept that a line like HS2 will be built at some point in the future.
As far as we understand, there has been very little movement on the sale of land - but that’s likely down to be it being a complex process rather than a political decision to go slow.
Great video again, but I need your help buying train tickets using an app.
Could you perhaps find out for us why it has suddenly become so difficult to buy tickets online.
I tried to buy a ticket on the National Rail app but there is no longer a link to purchase there now.
I then tried using the Trainline app but that forced me to collect from a station rather than save it to a phone.
What has changed?
How do you simply buy a ticket to ride on your lauded Elizabeth line if you don't live near an Elizabeth line station. It seems its not railway but tube line, and the ticketing has taken us back to the early reign of the old Queen herself.
Wow, what a fascinating episode! Thank you chaps and chapess. I just have to comment! I welcomed the interview with Mick Whelan, even though I found myself getting somewhat, em, 'agitated' at his responses to some of your questions Richard. All I will say is that I agree with you both, ie that the optics could not look worse with the announcement of the latest ASLEF strike. I live my working and social life using trains and have been more than inconvenienced over the last couple of years, and the prospect of further disruption on LNER routes only gets me to scream 'God bless Lumo!'. As for the interviews on the Isle of Wight, these interest me greatly as I have to go over there frequently. It's a wonderful railway and in my humble opinion it would be a great loss to the island if it closed. And how ludicrous that would be as it has already had a recent £26M upgrade, which has improved virtually every station and built a new passing loop at Brading! The only issue with it has been with timetabling. The promised half hour operation has not materialised and the dwell time when meeting the FastCat ferry at Ryde has been cut, frequently resulting in passengers being stranded at the Pier Head for at least an hour! But hey ho, best of luck with the new works. However, Neil Drury confused me somewhat as he spoke of trialling four car operation? Well, when the 'new' trains were introduced, they were using four car trains! If you don't believe me, here's my own RUclips video of them... ruclips.net/video/a81aJVhBmMo/видео.html Best wishes, Dave
Thanks Dave. I did think Neil had explained the issue with wheel wear / braking / electronics and the fact that after the mods they had to re-test with 4 cars - so sorry if that was confusing.
I am hoping to chat to Neil again quite soon - so we will revisit the point when we do and make sure it is all clear!
Cheers. Richard
@@GreenSignals Great. Incidentally, as a PS a few weeks later, on the first day of suspension of the Island Line last Friday, the rail replacement bus I caught was very late and it missed the minibus that goes up the pier to meet the FastCat ferry, not that apparently I could have got it anyway as it was already full up! Not merely stating this as a gripe, and it may not be an issue for Neil himself anyway, but this aspect, ie getting up and down the pier to meet the FastCat when the Island Line is off, is ALWAYS the weak link in the chain! So I and others will be using the hovercraft instead for the next few months as that journey excludes the need to use the pier and links with the Esplanade Station.
It’s interesting that Mick Whelan is prepared to be interviewed whilst LNER are not. There’s no doubt there are good staff in train operating companies but it does seem that on occasions strings are being pulled knowing they will test industrial relations. I think back to the Southern guard dispute in the mid 2000’s.
As the strikes are at the weekend does this imply that LNER does not have a 7 day working week agreement wand Sundays are operated by drivers voluntarily?
All TOCs are welcome to come on Green Signals at any time.
Sundays are inside the working week (a normal workday) for drivers at LNER.
They don’t want to work at all the lazy bastards. 75k a year and they still whine.
Aslef. Management. Constant rowing. Was HS2a cancellation by any chance related... ?
No connection - of that I'm certain
I'm not sure if you or anyone else here can address this query about HS2. I've been documenting the progress of the project in the Aylesbury area for 3 years now and on the A418 Oxford Road, Aylesbury there is an overbridge that is nearing completion which a realigned Oxford Road will go over. Since Dec 2023 planning permission for the bridge parapets has had the status of 'awaiting decision' on Buckinghamshire Council's planning portal. This has meant that the contractors have clamped the parapets in place temporarily whilst waiting for planning permission. I wonder if this kind of situation is happening a lot up and down the route. If that is the case, are these delays costing more money? As for the bridge parapets in question, I have yet to find out what the issue is with them as they conform to the same design as any other bridge along the route. Thoughts?
Hi Karl. Wouldn't know something quite as detailed as that - but have you tried writing to HS2 and the property team there? They are excellent and would I am sure point you in the right direction.
Another excellent watch many thanks indeed.
Just a question I cannot see on RUclips how to join, I have subscribed to the channel and the mailing list? A little confused.
Hi Andrew, I think I've seen that you've now joined on Patreon, so hopefully you're all sorted, but drop us an email on info@greensignals.org if you're still having trouble.
Found the link many thanks, l didn’t look properly!
I was surprised you didn't touch on RMT saying they wanted to reopen their wage agreement for Guards because ASLEF got 1% more than they did. Roll on Automated Metro's, you cant come soon enough.
If you are pinning any hopes on train automation, then apart from self contained metros, i fear you may be waiting for quite a while.
We need to find a better way to resolve disputes....
This isn't about metros. And RMT members don't drive trains.
We went from Ryde to shaklin last week a day rover was about £6 though what must be the cheapest difference I've ever seen with an off peak return £5.50 and anytime return £5.70
The connections at smallbrook junction could be better .
on that subject what's about a top ten of the worsts timetabled connections in the country?
Great question. Do you have any examples? I always found the connection at Derby for the Matlock branch a bit frustrating.
Green signals need a international rail journey sorting
Ooh, now there’s an excellent idea!!
Groan....don't start Richard off on overseas jollies!!!
@@nigelharris6873 Glad you approve Nige!
🤯 the statement from Mick that LNER is not the best run railway company (with the management strong-arming the workforce) blows my mind and reduces my confidence in GBR actually being successful or making a difference. 😭😭😭
I really don't think you can conflate those two issues.
LNER have had plenty of time to recruit and train enough drivers to cover the day to day service but they'd rather plug the gaps using managers and harassing and bullying drivers to work their days off.
I laughed though when Mick admitted that the drivers he accused of being scabs and working for a 'bounty' were paid exactly the same £500 a day as drivers working a normal Saturday.
@@watcherzero5256As I understand it, the £500 bonus is only being paid to the managers, and it’s on top of being paid what a driver would normally get for working a rest day. The crux of the issue is that a manager, who is already paid nearly double what a driver is, is being paid an additional day’s wages, plus another £500, to cover staff shortages.
@@watcherzero5256Drivers don’t get paid £500 a shift.
Given that Geoff Marshall has famously never been to the Isle of Wight, I think Nigel can be forgiven.
Despite his claims that he's used a green screen, he has actually been to the island! He did a video on the Island Line nearly three years ago, so we still can't forgive Nigel I'm afraid!
Yes I would think that would be when Geoff did his all the stations marathon
Yep, with you on that one. No forgiveness.
At the risk of ruining the joke by explaining it: Geoff has a running gag about never having been to the Isle of Wight which he repeats even in videos from the Isle of Wight.
Mick Whelan talking sense as usual, the worsening industrial relations with LNER coupled with the doubling down on the so called fare simplification begs the question if LNER have a hidden agenda
I'm not sure there's a hidden agenda at all - the people I know at LNER are very good. I think there is some hangover from the previous Government approach so lets hope that begins to change.
It’s clear that the LNER management have issues and it’s a shame that the drivers have been put in this position when good progress has been made over pay, rest assured this matter will be resolved before any industrial action has to take place.
Let's hope it is indeed settled soon for the good of all.
While ASLEF's grievances might be valid, I agree that the optics are awful. And p-ing off the Labour government and so many Labour voters so early on is a bit of a (rare) political mistake by the union. If I was the the SoS I'd be in 'very hacked off and defensive' mode now, and much less amenable to the union's demands.
The optics are grim indeed.
In the end the LNER dispute depends on the quality of management running the organisation. I couldn’t see this happening when it was GNER with Christopher Garnets management team. And the key word here is ‘team’. Railway work is team work requiring all parts of the organisation to pull together. Agreements between workers and management are robustly negotiated. But once made should be adhered to. In this instance it looks as though this hasn’t been the case. It may be seen as justifiable to use your driver managers to run trains on strike days but to carry on after because you don’t have enough drivers is a failure of management in itself. Breaking agreements creates a toxic environment in the work place which impacts morale, respect for the management as a whole and feeds all the way down to impact passengers.
As excellent as Chris Garnett was, and I knew him well, that was an era of growth and very limited civil service interference and meddling. A different world indeed.
Well said.
I'd like to know what the average LNER train driver earns currently. If they are on the widely stated sum in the papers of £80k basic plus over time then I don't know why they would want any more money because it will all go on tax. If they really are on that wage then these strikes are taking the piss!
On LNER dispute, while there may be other valid points - part of Aslef's complaint seems to be that the employer has staff competent to drive trains, that are driving trains, but have manager in their job title.... Last time I checked closed shops had been made illegal, so the employer would be quite right to push back on this point and tell aslef to foxtrot oscar on this particular point of the dispute.
I think you are confusing issues here. A closed shop relates to a mandatory obligation to join a Trades Union. That's a very different issue to agreements on who can do what.
I think you are confusing issues here. A closed shop relates to a mandatory obligation to join a Trades Union. That's a very different issue to agreements on who can do what.
@@GreenSignals Well, to me, it seems to be sailing quite close to it - in that there are a number of employees with the competency to do a task - and the union that represents the vast majority of them with one job title is objecting to another group of employees with the competency (who are not members of that union), carrying out a task they have the competency to do ?
If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it's a duck.
As I see it Aslef need to tread carefully on this
Public opinion was reasonably supportive of the strike action over pay rises,however this new round of action coming right on top of a settlement offer looks like it's not going to win any friends,that's me putting it mildly,
SOS must of been fuming when this dropped
A week is a long time in politics however the memories of this will last well into GBR I feel.
Thanks. I think you could well be right re the optics and the need not to overplay things.
How to fix industrial relations.... same as network rail, pay the same person 450 quid a day for the same job but on a 0 hours contract and no perks or pension. The half a million I earned in the last 5 years was way better than any strike pay, free rail travel or pension I got!
Playing devil's advocate regarding the LNER dispute, as Mick pointed out and you chaps acknowledged, it is an existing dispute separate to the pay deal, would it not be unreasonable to think that Louise Haigh might have been made aware of it already by ASLEF, and so the heat in her office and Nigel's view of the optics may possibly be overestimated? Perhaps that would have been another good question to ask Mick? On a simpler note, thank you once again for delivering an excellent programme. Long may you continue! 🙂
The Train Drivers pay increase is a very sore point in our house. My wife is a local authority solicitor in adult social care on very low pay no final salary pension. Whatever Mick Wheelen says doesn't hold water with us. Mr Grandfather was a senior NUM official he always said that nobody wins with striking and he use to try and talk them out of it. The question is are they overpaid already?
Solicitors pay is a sore point in our house hold after dealing with a bill of several thousand pounds where the solicitor charged £230 per hour.
@@amazoniaamazonia7225 Yes thats private practice for you. But as my wife says you are paying for help and advice. £230 / hour is cheap. But my wife only gets paid £50000 / year at our local authority. so Train drivers @ 70000/year is a lot for an unqualified (not university educated) Bus drivers don't get that.
Apply to be a train driver then !
It is not good that your wife is on low pay with no final salary pension. But it seems that you are advocating that this should be the norm for everyone rather than your wife being paid fairly for what is a very responsible job with a good final salary at the end. Isn’t this what everyone should be aspiring to?
It's not correct to say that train drivers are unqualified. It's a tremendously responsible job that requires considerable skill and concentration.
Battery class 350/2's perhaps?
An interesting thought!
Great episode as always, I quite liked you both being together in person it had a relaxed talk show vibe to it, something you could imagine getting a slot on mainstream television.
If the island line were to close then other forms of transport would need to be stepped up to take its place such as Buses with dedicated Lanes and high frequency like they do on the continent but also a much wider move in all areas away from car dependency, but also I think the question holds the potential for a wider discussion as to whether railways are essential infrastructure that need to operate regardless of whether they're 'commercially viable' especially as we need to increase the use of green transport as we move to net zero as simply replacing cars with electric cars is not a solution, not to mention that we NEVER scrutinize the cost of roads and associated infrastructure and just take it as Gospel, interesting that rail projects are now under scrutiny but that silly motorway under the thames is still happening and HS2 money is going to Potholes, It would also be optically bad to close an electric railway that would be replaced with diesel cars and busses and operating on this commercial model will not allow for the change that's needed, really a Keynesian approach should be taken to the Island line, that is, to expand it to Cowes and Newport as well as Bembridge and Freshwater, while further integrating it to buses and to disincentivise driving via pedestrianization and slower speed restrictions to increase its appeal, reach and ridership but also to provide routes not reliant on Piers and tunnels, which could hopefully grow the revenue and the local economy to pay for the more difficult infrastructure issues at Ryde.
All of which of course is debatable and not achievable by a single organisation or TOC as well as a move away from car centrism in how we think about transport and urban planning which would never happen in managed decline ever shrinking budget Britain
Thanks! Some interesting ideas indeed re expanding the IOW rail network, though in fairness, the Southern Vectis network is very good.
As to getting together to do the show, it was tremendous fun - the challenge is the 145 miles gap between where we live!
@@GreenSignals Yes, it has to be said that the bus network is absolutely excellent, and the Island Line complements it beautifully, especially for those living in the major towns of Sandown and Shanklin. It also has to be said that one huge benefit of the Island Line is that it connects with the Isle of Wight Steam Railway on their running days at Smallbrook Junction, which is a boon for eg day trippers to the island. As for expansion of the line, realistically I don't think it feasible to extend to eg Newport or Cowes - the only slight possibility is perhaps to extend the line to Ventnor, which could be relatively easy to do. But lets fix the current problems first!
You need to send nigel on some jollys
We may do some together....Richard really is expert with the video gear.
We are planning to do some stuff together - it really is easier with two of you!
Brilliant episode. More of the public should watch this interview with aslef they'll learn more than from our actual press.
Shows how much of a joke the last Conservative government was.
and do you think this present government will be any better ??? if you do actually think this government will be better option- then you are a seriously kind of stupid !!
Thanks Anthony. Very kind indeed!
How about doing some features on Heritage Railway project and some Heritage Railway galas?
Yes, how about they visit the Isle of Wight Steam Railway? Nigel could also see an old Class 483 1938 stock train there, albeit currently static.
We have some very exciting stuff on heritage planned!
@GreenSignals fantastic thank you.
Close the island line for good! How very dare you suggest such, stop giving them ideas!
im sure though you could find a group of accountants that would eventually conclude the line to be financial unviable.
Then once closed we would be talking how it will cost 1billon to reopen 😮
You don't need an accountant to tell you it's financially viable as it is self evidently not - indeed one would struggle to find a railway line that it is. We continue to operate railway lines for other non-financial, social reasons. No more so perhaps than the Island Line.
But I was only teasing - I think it would be a terrible shame if it closed. I suspect the monies being spent on it at the moment ensure that's not going to be a debate for many years to come.
Nigel/richard dont forget GWR getting the class 175 fleet one of the worst kept secrets on the uk rail network.
They are great units if they are looked after as Alstom proved
Thanks Anthony.
Toxic management will always be there...from middle management to executive level😮
Very helpful attitude … then we wonder
@@mattsub1 I'm sorry I done managers a disservice....not toxic management.....but a over Riding culture from a proportion of management that permeates thothout the industry to the point where the good management has difficulty swimming against the tide and give up and swim with the nasty fish....not just a key board basher sat at home been nasty but a rail worker from 16 year old who retired a few years ago as I could see the tsunami presure building up so took early retirement as (from a job I loved) to bail out...as a parting shot from middle management refused out of petty jealousy and incumbent nastyness to allow me to take my owed leave before retirement date out of petty spite...thanks to local aslef reps finally sorted but what a bitter end to happy days on the job....(not a isolated incident and many othe in industry will have there own story) so toxic culture YEP!.....then both sides dig in and then in the mess we are in now! Why was there so many years where driver strikes where avoided? And now so many? Disgruntled staff brassed off under appreciated not surprised they will vent!
There is no quick fix to the problem as its been years in the making but the good management now have to swim harder as the good will of the staff has been bashed
So now I can do my jobs at home listening to green signals blessing my pension pot thinking how lucky I was....love pod casts chaps keep it up
Glad you like the podcast Graham - don't necessarily agree with all your points, but debate is good!
@@GreenSignals yep ...quite agree with a healthy discussion! Love the railway but its abit sour at the moment hence disruption....hopefully normal railway service will resume and railways can become a happy place to live and work
Regarding the ASLEF industrial action, it has now helped me decide on how I shall travel to South Wales to visit my sister in a few weeks. I had seriously considered rail travel from Norfolk via King's Cross and using the Underground to Paddington- in itself difficult as I now use a small mobility scooter. Reaching the Underground at King's Cross was much easier before it was rebuilt.
I have now decided that due to the continuing uncertainty over rail services, the only option is to drive (despite the ridiculous 20mph speed limits in Wales). A real shame as I used to love rail travel.
I may however, whilst I am in South Wales, have a ride on one of TfW's new trains to Cardiff (a possible jolly for Richard & Nigel in a future program when the Taff's Well depot is complete?)
That's a pity Mervyn. I understand your frustration but I feel we do need to keep the faith where possible and travel by train as much as we can.
Agree with you re the new South Wales metro. Looking forward to seeing that myself very soon!
Cheers
20mph limits are there for safety. We take safety for granted on the train. That 20 limit should be Nationwide.
@@julianroberts8760 And should trains slow to 20 mph over level crossings for safety?
Big thanks to you guys (Inc Stef) at Green Signals for another great programme.
I understand your unstated sentiment about the LNER industrial action, noting your comment about LNER striving to prove they can still break ASLEF strikes and operate trains. Yes, it is very important to provide a service for the pax who have to pay exorbitant fares for the privilege. However, I challenge the choice LNER make to pay £500 per shift premiums to contingent staff to operate trains in non strike conditions. In my opinion the contingent premiums paid to non traincrew do absolutely nothing to promote relations
Thanks for your thoughts Phil, but I think you may have stretched our sentiments (unstated or otherwise!) to breaking point there! We tried to present a balanced picture and I think it's of a stretch to suggest we were saying that LNER had been striving to prove they could 'break' strikes! Not what we were saying at all. Yes, LNER would have been trying to do everything they could to minimise the impact and even Mick accepted that was understandable to an extent. In the end though, it is people sitting down together that will resolve this so lets all hope that is indeed what happens. Cheers.
For the first time in a long time, we have grown up Government.
Interesting. What country are you in? Because we have the same useless grifters here in the UK, just wearing a different sash
Capitulating to unions never works! 😂
No, it doesn't but in fairness, I really don't think that is what has happened here.
Respect and working with the rail unions does.
For me there are 2 main issues:
1/ Train drivers have no more responsibility than Bus or Coach Drivers. In fact the rails and signals to do the job and its one way lanes only, so they HAVE less stress etc. BUT because ASLEF has gained a lot of clout since 1948 Nationalisation, their wages are far far higher than Bus and Coach drivers and with better conditions.
2/ Management are no doubt worse than ever, but work in the private sector to see how hard it can be [Dont tell me the railways of Britain are really Private please]. When Harold Wilson dished out money to the Miners, The powerworkers warned that he would have to pay out the same to them and other public workers. My Father's single month net pay packet [with back pay] was almost the same as my annual take home!!!. My dad said it was bloody silly, it was and it is and inflationary. Times dont change for some do they, let alone their defined benefits and superannuation .
I’m afraid that having sat in the driving cab of a train many times (not driving I hasten to add!) I am always reminded, each time, how complex and technically hard is the task. It is not correct IMHO to say they have no more responsibility than a bus driver. I think we need to see if we can do a video to lay this one to rest.
More to follow…..!
Watch a driver's eye video on RUclips - the ones by Don Coffey are pretty good.
6:28 If it is Aotearoa, then pronounced Ay-oh-tea-ah-rower,
Ah, thanks!
No, it's just New Zealand
No-one actually expected that the rail strikes would stop under Labour, did they....? Welcome back to the 1970s...
But the main pay dispute has stopped (assuming they vote to accept....). Not sure what your point is really.
That must be hard £500 to work weekend,s, the term ASELF is antiquated, how many firemen you got Whelen? The sooner they automate train,s the better, holding the country to ransome, highest fares in Europe, dinosaur.
and clearly your ignorance is matched by only your extreme stupidity ,you dumb c**t if you think the high train fares are down to ASLEF !! but do remember that jellyfish have managed to survive for the last 650 million years WITHOUT a brain- so that thought should give YOU some real, clear hope -you rsole !!
I fear that if you are pinning your hopes on automation, you are likely to be very disappointed. Only people working together will resolve disputes, Steve.
An interesting podcast... it would be so much better though if Nigel could keep his right wing anti trade union views out of the program. RIchard manages it and always comes across neutral and unbiased, let people make up their own minds.
Totally disagree. He might have DIFFERENT views than the TU but that does NOT make him anti union. It’s that type of comment that typifies all the current social/political/woke issues in the UK today.
Thought Nigel was very measured.
Can't agree with you, sir. Even if true, a key element of this podcast is to listen to the opinions of these two railway experts.
Don't be daft. You have no idea what my politics are and would doubtless be surprised if you did. I simply call it as I see it. I em entitled both to an opinion and to express irt. Which I shall continue to do. What a pity that you seem to wish to hear only an echo chamber of your own views!! But thankyou for you listening and telling us what you think. Appreciate that.
@@Goldenoldie49 Thankyou!
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