Climb Milling vs. Conventional Milling
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- An explanation and demonstration of climb milling and conventional milling. Positive and negative points of each technique will be covered as well as examples of what can go wrong.
Hands-down one of the most informative pieces on climb- vs conventional milling. I accidentally clicked on this right before I was supposed to leave for a meeting, but was so impressed with it's depth of information, that being late was completely worth it. What a really, *really* great video and demonstration. To the point, clear, with immediate feedback, and you covered all the directions, angles and styles.
I wish all such videos I've found online were this informative, and in such an impressively short time too. (I've learned less in hour-long videos.)
Thanks for helping make me a better machinist.
+Mark Donohoe
Thanks Mark
I’ve been a Toolmaker for 22 years and today my son sent me a picture of his mill setup at his high school. I asked if they’re teaching them the basics like climb and conventional and he said no. I’m not a good person to explain with words so figured I’d do a quick search and your video came up. I’ll definitely watch it again with him as your explanation is far better than mine and the visual examples are excellent. Nice machine shop too. I’ve always wanted to have one but it’s hard to justify the cost when my employer allows us to use the shop for our own stuff on our own time. Thx again
Thanks, Ernie.
also your skills at doing cautious perfect small crashes and grabs WAS THE BEST IVE EVER SEEN--youve got in the hours milling thats for sure.
This is THE best explanation of Climb vs conventional milling I have ever seen, and I have seen a few. I always new it was all about chip thickness but I never really visualised it as well as this.
+gus bisbal
Thanks Gus
+gus bisbal
I agree, excellent demonstration and explanation. Concise, coherent and easily understandable. Great work.
Good explanation, I learned the same 40 years ago. Anyhow, in the modern machines with very little backlash climb cutting is always used, as it saves tool life and produces better surfaces.
This is great for a manual machine. You are spot on with all the issues and benefits.
Additionally, on a CNC with ball screws and very little backlash, climb milling is best all around due to the better chip clearance and better surface finishes. As an added bonus, tool life also goes up with climb milling with light, fast passes (High Speed Machining or High Efficiency Machining) on a CNC.
Thanks Tom.
Tool life is definitely better when climb milling due to the lack of rubbing as the cutter enters the work.
Tom
Learned more about milling the square bar held vertical in the vice. Thanks. Glad I found your older video as you made things more clear.
Learned a lot, and your demonstrations (rather than just verbal explanations) make both the procedure and the results - desirable and undesirable - very clear. Super helpful. Thanks again.
+Jim Milne
Thanks Jim
Thank you for your video, just 18 minutes and now I "get" it. I went to school for a year, bought the textbooks, listened to the lecturer...but it never really sank in. Watching you explain things in action though, now it makes sense!
Again thank you, you earned a new subscriber.
Thanks for watching
That is the best description i have heard explaining conventional vs climb milling. I had never thought of the chip formation. Great video. Thank you for taking the time to make, edit and post this.
+Scott Thornton
Thanks Scott, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I really like the fact that Tom takes time to help us with our techniques. Thank You Tom.
+pak715
My pleasure. Thanks for watching.
Thanks, Tom, have zero training on a milling machine I basically have taught my self, though not always with good results as you just demonstrated. I could see the surface finish differences and the mill talking back to me but never knew why. You have made it all make sense!
Good to hear, David. Thanks for watching.
Beautifully explained, thank you for taking the time to make the video - much appreciated.
Glad you are back making videos! Thank you for your hard work and fantastically informative material
+Ras
Thanks for watching.
this is a much more interesting point than what my teacher told me in school, all he said was climb milling wears out your cutting edge faster, conventional makes it last longer, so always conventional mill, but now I see I should do conventional for rough milling, and climb for the last fine cut, cheers!
Sounds like your teacher needs to go back to school.
In theory, climb milling should wear less than conventional due to more rubbing when entering the cut.
As someone that is still new to machining with a mill I learned a lot from this video. I had a part climb out of my vice as you describe around the 13 minute mark and did not know what I did wrong but your explanation and example really put everything into perspective. Thanks.
That's good to hear. Too bad you didn't catch the video before the crash. :)
Tom
Tom
Very true, but some trial and error for a new user is expected. Thanks again.
Crashes can be expensive in machining, so hopefully these videos can help prevent some of them.
Tom
Nice job Tom.
I think of it as scooping, conventional..... and clawing, climb milling. What I didn't know was the physics of how and why one worked better than the other depending on the finish you were working toward.
That lesson was presented really well.
Thanks Tom.
+wiredodger60
Thanks. That's a good analogy.
Wow that was a great explanation. Thank you. Before this video I understood why climb milling grabbed the part but not why the surface finish was better. Thank you for clearing that up.
Thanks. Glad I could shed some light on the subject.
Tom
Thank you Tom, I have read about climb milling but could not understand how it worked until I viewed your demonstration.
+William Ottewell
Thanks for watching William.
I knew the difference very well, but didn't knew how to explain it to others. Thank you!
Thanks for the clear explanation as I am new to the game getting started in all of this at a late age in my life and can use the wisdom of those that have been in the game for a long time like you.
Thanks Edward. Glad I can help.
Tom
Thanx Teach! Like I'm back in school, but the fun stuff, like auto or wood... or metal/machining (the one my school lacked). I like your way of describing, really drew me and made the lesson fun. I really hope they bring back more tradesman schools here in Cali. Thanks again, now I have to watch the rest of your videos.
That's good to hear. It's been a long time since I taught in a classroom. Once manufacturing starts coming back to the country, so will the "fun stuff" in education.
Tom
I am glad that I found your channel. This is definitely the best explanation related to milling I saw so far. Can't wait to se all of your video :)
Welcome aboard :)
Nice job explaining the difference in milling directions. If you don't mind, I would like to offer a couple other points.
Another reason that the conventional cut makes a crappy finish is that it drags chips that adhere to the cutter back into the fresh cut surface. These chips get wedged and smeared under high pressure embedding them in the otherwise smooth surface. If you use a lubricated air blast you will get a much better finish conventional milling. Plunge milling on an edge can have the same consequences as climb milling. Always pre-load the leadscrew counteracting the cutting force as well as using the lock screw on the table slide. One other point is that you should always check the tram (squareness) of the head and square of the vise after a climb milling crash. 9 times out of 10 something will have moved. By the way, mills have adjustments on the backlash of the leadscrew nuts. You should be able to get the backlash down to less than .005" pretty easily if the screw itself is not badly worn in the middle of it's travel. This small backlash will make quite a difference in not grabbing a part when climbing.
+David S.
Thanks David. All good points.
The amount of backlash is only a problem if it's ignored. Proper tool overlap, feed direction and use of table locks will keep it from becoming a problem.
Tom
Nice, well thought out presentation Tom. Great job.
Colin :-)
+CompEdgeX
Thanks Colin
Thanks for such a clear explanation and demonstration. Very helpful for a non-technical person.
Ah, winter is in the air and Tom is back in the shop ..... nice to see you again. Looking forward to a few more videos to enjoy. Regards, greg
+pkav8tor
Thanks Greg.
great to have you back,you were missed. looking forward to more videos. thanks tom.
+larry sperling
Thanks for watching Larry.
Very nice video tom. I have not seen a better explanation and demonstration of the two techniques. Thanks
Thanks Mark
I was wondering why I was getting dissapointing finishes from my 6040. This explains it. Thank you.
Good to hear.
Thanks for watching.
Great piece Tom. This is the best explanation of why conventional vs climb milling finishes differ I have ever seen. Thanks for taking the time to educate us! Fred
+Fred Miller
Thanks Fred.
+Toms Techniques! yes sir much better explanation and a helluva lot less expensive than using the bosses hi speed video / computer file set-up over at the tech lab. thanks tom. (i personally used a similar video set-up @ ITW / paslode fastener engineering dept. to observe how prototype 'roundrive' nails went thru a 'windowed' nose piece of a pneumatic nailer tool > kinda like trying to find a needle in a haystack searching the 'bazillions' of frames per second...)
Very well explained. Always noticed the clime milling left a better finish but didn't understand why. Thank you for sharing this.
+Glenn Felpel
Thanks for watching Glenn.
A very good demo Tom! Using a slow larger diameter cutter while climbing at a slow feedrate really gets the point across.
+Ujeb08
Thanks.
Nothing makes a bigger impression than a good crash.
Tom
Fantastic demonstration video. If you are not an instructor, you probably should be. Thank you for posting this. It really helped me. Big upvote.
Thanks. I was a high school instructor in the 70's, but switched to industry where I could actually make a living. :)
@@TomsTechniques Yes. Regrettably those two things are mutually exclusive. My wife is a teacher.
Thanks for this sort of video, really helps me to visualize the differences. great work.
Thanks Tom. Great explanation! Probably the best I've seen online. My endmills thank you too.
Thanks for watching!
Great video! I would always use a two fluted end mill when machining aluminum! Chips wouldn't load up and better finish! Coolant and or continuous air blast always helped!
Agreed. This was just a demo and I didn't want to risk breaking a large two-flute.
You probably just saved me a few hundred pounds having to pay someone to teach me that, thanks!
Good to hear. I take cash, check or Paypal. ;)
Thanks for watching.
Tom
good video people forget the power in some of the machines they use and how fast thing go wrong when they do ty for posting
+Bleu Wolf
Yup. I wanted to show how much backlash was in the table before taking the cut, but I couldn't move the table by hand. The cutter had no trouble moving it.
Tom
Hi Tom thank you for a very interesting video on climb and conventional milling . Very well explained. Regards Brian
nice video. good demonstrations and the explanation at the end explains exactly why the machine and part react that way.
Just got our first mill a Grizzly G0759. Just subbed. Love the channel and learning a lot!
Excellent. It's a nice mill for the money, but on the light side. Be careful when climb milling.
Thanks for watching.
Tom
Saw that when playing today. Didn't know it was called climb milling. Thanks
Sir I use this for my apprenticeship when I have time I appreciate this videos
Another fantastic explanation/demonstration. Thanks Tom.
+Crivo152
Thanks for watching.
Thank you for the reply Tom. I am making my own locks(for small boxes),and the stainless steel parts i'm machining are the moving parts of the mechanism. I was under the impression that 304 Grade was easiest to machine.
+Alan Jackson
304 is good for welding and fabrication (sheet metal work), but it doesn't machine well at all. If you have a lot of machining to do and haven't started yet, I would definitely recommend using 303 instead.
Tom
Very good description, but the camera threw me as it looks like the tool is moving and not the part. So I have to confess and say either you are drawing it wrong or I still have not got it ( the money is on me being wrong ). I will have to do some more searching on this subject, I always thought that if the work moves in the same direction as the spin of the tool ( with regards to the cutting edge ) then you are Climb Milling, but you look to be drawing it the other way, so I am really confused now, but I have to say I watch your videos a lot, you have always given me good advice, I like it keep it up, thank you very much.
+Toms Techniques Then I am ok with how I understand it, thank you for your quick answerBob
If the feed rate and spindle speed remains unchanged, They also produce different SFPM speeds because one direction the travel is adding to the attack speed, the other way it is subtracting from the attack speed..
Great Video !!Thanks !!
Technically that is correct, but the difference would be minimal.
Glad you enjoyed it.
Good demo! Think of this same principle next time you see a large milling machine on a road construction job doing profiling and milling. In 1975 when these machines started hitting the market they were lighter and set up for the cutter wheel to rotate down with the machine moving forward just like climb milling and it would grab and propel the machine forward and make a mess out of the profile. We mechanics out in the field got together with the manufacturers and soon changed the rotation of the drum and configuration of the cutter teeth to make it an up cut (conventional milling) and to this day is still used to make it a more stabilized cut. Same principals-Different trades with many similarities. Thanks for the flash back. Ed K. Cleve. Oh. AKA-DoneWrenching.
+Eddie Kawecki
Thanks Eddie. Glad you enjoyed it.
Thanks for the video. These are some fundamentals I hope remain with me always.
Even though I am a huge fan of mrpete222 tubalcain, you have explained something he never did get to touch.
Thank you very much
+Søren Hansen
Who? :)
That's good to hear because a lot of new machinists seem to be confused by the concept.
Thanks for watching.
Tom
Very cool Tom! I am healing a dislocated wrist and guess I will get back to the shop. I can't stay away :) I Don't want to over step but, like a drawing, multiple views can sometimes describe a full idea. Your explanation of climb/conventional, push/pull and such is awesome. Simple and to the point! This comment is more for finishing. As for all cutting efficiency I also think of materials as having a skin and the sharpness of the cutting edge is directly related to the starting cutting pressure of conventional. Where the "bite" distance to get under that "0" thickness increases with conventional compared to climb. To exaggerate a tool with a little "shine" on the edge or if we look real small and consider it to be a slight micro radii can cause that pressure until the cutter lip is at least that deep into the material. Unfortunately with end mills this is constant. Plus the chip evacuation of the trailing side of side climb cutting helps better than "chopping through the chips that were already cut once. Thank for a great basic, easy to understand visual on this. It makes me want to get yet another camera. Climb when ever possible within reasonable time and cost is what I aim for. Thanks again
+Do Right
Thanks. Glad you enjoyed the vid
I can't find what I was talking about. Thanks Tom I will keep watching and if I figure out what I was talking about ill let you know. Keep up the great work.
VERY good demonstration. Best explanation I've seen on this subject
+Bob Sorenson
Thanks Bob.
Great practical demonstration and explanation. Liked how you use the vise as a white board. Subscribed and looking forward to more.
Just read about this in our machinist trade theory book. "Read" not hands on... we read about this and tested on it. Not qual'ed to run a milling machine yet. THIS IS THE TYPE OF VIDEO WE APPRENTICES NEED TO WATCH!
Good to hear, Dylan.
Thanks for watching
❤great explanation, it makes sense now. My router is more predictable when feeding it counter rotation into the stock
Predictible and safer.
Thank you Tom for making the difference between both types of milling so clear. Is there any specific reason that you didn't use the term, 'hook milling' in association with your thorough coverage of the processes? Is it fairly common to also call climb milling, hook milling, or has the expression become archaic in the machine shop? Great video Tom, thanks again!
Thank you! Great! Greatings from the netherlands.
You narrate good when I do videos I am a stumbling narrator. Anyway a couple of things to point out to people new to machining when coming up to a workpeice like he was showing that be aware that theoretically any time the cutter enters the part you have a zone in which you are climb cutting which can cause trouble because you may crank to the left and go to town hogging off conventional from left to right--but there is a problem that when you enter the part it can and will slam the table in the Y possibly crashing a bit. I myself sometimes use the lock thing but not aways I just am aware of it and cautious first starting out if you have a long length of cut and a huge cutter. Using a small cutter almost all of the climb/convential grabbing goes away especially at the higher rpm. Also on the TOP finish people should be aware that a square end mill like that you should use a diamond lap and stone a micro radius or micro chamfer on there before using it the first time. A dead square sharp cutter the tiny corner breaks off anyway microscopically in the first seconds. Another reason the small radius or chamfer is a must is that with dead square cutters you will get "breakout pits" in the workpeice because the very final cut there can be a tiny island standing that then breaks off and does not cut. Also the EDGE will do that sometimes very bad with some materials. With a radius insert or cutter or also a chamfer all that goes away because the final tit is a cone which gets smaller and smaller and is gone. eze lap makes excellent diamond laps for that purpose that last forever. When stoning on the radius you will get better finishes cutter lasts longer etc. To grind it on it does take an optivisor and skillful tilting of the lap so as to put the micro radius on WITH SOME CLEARANCE--You thus will be stoneing a microscopic cone. Untill you gain the skills best to do a micro chamfer of about .005 or so.
Thank you so much Toms. Nice present :) Now I'm know what is Climb milling compare with Conventional milling :)
Quick comment on the whiteboard demo of chip shape and finish near the end of your video. This was explained to me via whittling wood with a knife. Imagine trying to whittle a chip that starts thin and get's thicker! Most whittling is 'climb whittling', and you may find that your 'vise' hand gets tired more quickly than your 'tool' hand.
The analogy is a bit weak, but it made sense to me when I was ten, ha! :)
I haven't done much whittling, but it sounds like you may have it backwards. When climb milling, the chip starts out thick and finishes up thin. I suspect whittling is the other way around.
Tom
Thanks, you have the best machinist videos for learning.
+Billy Dean
Thanks Billy
Thank you for a simplified explanation.Finaly I get it👍
I love this channel. Thank you for all the information.
Thanks a bunch for you expertise on this subject. Keep them coming.
Great explanation of the difference in the two ways of milling. Thanks for all your videos
+Tom Bellus
Thanks Tom. I shot some more today, but didn't have time to get it edited. I'll try to get it up later in the week.
Tom
thanks for the very good explanation video, highly recommend for ppl new to machining
Just getting into all of this and the information is priceless,,thank you sir !
Thanks for watching
Another video of excellence, Thank you Tom.
+Allan Henson
Thanks Allan
Thanks Tom, a nice easy to understand explanation of an interesting subject.
Mart.
+martsrods
Thanks for watching.
and hey, for those who dont know, you can cut the double end endmill in half to shorten the amount it sticks out. it works great
+the russian machinists
For the record, this is the only end mill I own that won't completely fit in the collet. I would hate to cut it off and then have the need for one with a long reach. Maybe it's time to bite the bullet and just buy a holder.
Yay!!! my favorite machinist is back!! here to stay i hope?
+Benjamin Harris
At least till summer rolls around. :)
you still need to show us the completion of the Stevens single shot, the barrel was what i was looking forward to the most
+Benjamin Harris
I'm hoping to get back on that this winter. I'm definitely excited to try out the gun drill set-up that I made for my lathe.
Tom
Tom you are the man but i will call you out on using a pined stationary jaw. Your stationary jaw is is held w/ a square peg which is subject to moving due to vibration. Solid back vices are always better (especially for demonstration)
Lol. I doubt the Kurt engineers would have used a keyed jaw on their flagship vise if they thought it would move.
A great explanation. Really easy to understand. :)
Very informative video. Nicely demonstrated and explained. Thanks.
Thanks!
You are a great teacher, thank you for sharing your skill
Thanks for watching
Learning video 4-sure, thanks man.
hi tom,
this is a very well thought out and presented lecture!
glad to see you back in the shop in the new 2016.
thanks for the video,
-toly
+Toly Dukhovny
Thanks Toly
hi first time watching, I really like the way you have explained climb vs conv. milling . I just wanted to ask you do you use the same theory in cnc milling as well or does it only pertain to conventional mills (manual) ?
The theory is the same for manual or CNC mills. The only difference is that climb milling is less of an issue with CNC because of the zero backlash leadscrews.
Thanks for watching.
Tom
Ok thnx
Very good points! I learned a few things.
Thanks for tips TOMS!
Very, very good explanation. Finally got my head around it.
Thanks. Glad to hear it helped.
climb milling also creates the chip by taking the big bite first, tapering off to a small bite as the cutting edge sweeps off the work
16:45 Billy. :)
Exactly right Fred, I couldn't agree more.
+gilelicyd
Thanks for watching.
wow thanks for that .makes so much sense now that you explain it.
+Rand Fournier
Thanks.That's good to hear.
Great explanation !
Using the mister while conventional milling will leave a pretty good finish. It will usually look pretty bad without using coolant and taking heavy cuts like that. Especially evident with high speed tools
Misting does help when conventional milling by lubricating the cutting edge as it drags across the work, but it doesn't have as much an effect on climb milling.
Toms Techniques absolutely! I usually turn the mister off while coming back climb milling 😀
That clarified thing for me nicely!!! Thanks for that!
Thanks for watching!
I learned it a lot different. You can get a great finish on conventional milling, you just need to speed up the cutter and slow feed. It's all about the cut pattern. On the contrary, in order to do climb milling, any type of play is bad. Spindles must have as little play as possible, and you need strong gears.
Climb milling is grabbing material then cutting, while conventional milling is cutting it away and not grabbing it.
For really perfect cuts on small tolerances, you should conventional mill, and climb mill back without going deeper on your cut.
Not sure how how you could have learned it "different". Climb milling will always generate a better surface finish based on the reasons I've covered in the video. Higher cutting speeds and lower feeds will indeed improve the finish, but it will never equal one produced by climb milling. A possible exception would be some plastics, which due to their low coefficient of friction, exhibit a good surface finish regardless of how they are milled.
Regarding "play" or backlash as it is more commonly called, all machines with standard screws have it and you just have to know how to manage it when milling by removing it before the cut, adjusting the depth of cut, or using the table locks, regardless of whether you are climb or conventional milling.
The technique of taking a second pass at the same depth is called a spring pass.
Tom
Toms Techniques Sorry I'm an American, but I reside and work in Germany, which is where I learned machinist. I can't really say that that it's different, but there are a few differences is standards, and I'm not completely 100% on all of English terminology, sorry about that.
No need to apologize. I was just confused by your comment.
Thanks for watching.
Tom
Toms Techniques The way I was taught was to use conventional milling, we have 2 sets of cutting and feed speeds, one for cutting, the other for polishing.
For my job I work primarily on CNC lathes, but had to learn conventional. I'm just trying to get proficient because I want to open a home shop. thanks for the tips, they're greatly appreciated.
Excellent tutorial, Tom! But, I was a little confused when you explained about the direction of the cut. I believe that on most mills, the table moves the work piece in the x and y directions, but in your video it seemed as though the CUTTER was moving instead of the table! Is that how your particular mill operates?
That was just poor camera work (I should probably fire the guy). The camera was on a magnetic indicator holder that was stuck to the table. That made it appear that the cutter was moving and not the table. Never gave it a thought until after the video was posted.
Tom
At 15:03 you drew an arrow to show the direction of feed. But if the table is moving the work, then shouldn't the direction of feed actually be in the opposite direction?
The arrow represents cutter movement relative to the work.
Great video! Thank you for making these tutorial videos
Thank you for watching them.
Great video/instruction/discussion....HNY....thanks
+outsidescrewball
Thanks Chuck
Awesome work!
great vid Tom.. glad you are back..I have been having trouble loading the lessons on your website. any recomondations.
+Bill Clifford
What kind of trouble Bill? Everything seems to be working normally and I haven't had any other complaints. Why don't you leave me a message over there and we'll figure out what's going on.
Tom
Thank you very for this awesome video.
Very useful video, thank you.
so in the Y axis with clockwise rotation of the cutter you feed away from you is convention milling and in conventional milling in the X axis you feed from left to right
Your description doesn't take into account which side of the work the cutter is on. In your Y axis example, if you feed the work away from you and the cutter is on the left side of the work, you are conventional milling. In your X axis example, if you feed the work left to right and the cutter is in front of the work, you are conventional milling.
Tom
Thank you! This is what I needed. 🍻
Great tutorial thank you very much!
very nicely explained. what about slot milling? does it have same effects in slot milling too?
+gfaaltumails
Climb milling and conventional milling have the same effects regardless of what you are doing. You have to keep what the end mill will want to do at all times when you are milling.
Tom