I always thought that when she said "She was in insurance" that meant that she was giving a double entendre. Telling Dr. Peters that she was in insurance (as in someone who sells insurance) but she was really there to ensure that everything plays out exactly as it should so that in the future she will be in charge. 1995 was 30 years in the past yet she looks the same age, so I assume she went back in time to keep things on track. I also assume that she was instrumental in taking so long to restore the voice messages and in sending Cole to the wrong times etc. With time travel, they can just wait until the re-constructed phone messages are finished before sending people back in time, there's no need for the agents to be sent into the past without all the information they need... or the first agent gets sent back to figure things out, leave the phone messages and then future agents can go back and make sure the correct target has been dealt with. Also, when Jose gives Cole the gun at the airport he says to Cole that he has to keep doing what he was sent to do otherwise he (Jose) has to shoot the girl (Kathryn). This is to motivate Cole to run through the ariport with a gun to get shot, exactly as it originally happened. In my opinion, that "future Leader" wanted to make sure that she will always be the "future Leader".
Awesome explanation. I think Joe was with you on this until I chimed in with the whole, “she is literally an insurance” thing… and honestly I keep going back n forth. You might say I have found myself in a loop of explanations 😅 -Nick
I agree with this assessment. Insurance was meant not as a profession but saying she was insuring that they acquired the virus in its pure form. Cole was always going to die and in a way I believe that was the punishment for trying to stay in the past. He was just collateral damage.
@@RR64434 first of all great timing. You watched this a day ago for me. Which is a weird thing to say because all these other people watched this movie and this explanation either a year or more ago. So in a strange way, I’m experiencing talking to somebody in a closer to present timeline. Anyway, I thought that’s what she was doing. She was ensuring that they completed the mission and got the pure version to save the future. But it could be any of these explanations. She could be ensuring that she is the future leader. Or she could just be an insurance agent.
@@poopinfinoopin4907correct. Jose says that Cole figured everything out, he succeeded in finding the pure virus. Since in 2035 they knew that Cole would fail at shooting the lab assistant, the old lady came back to 1996 herself. She is there to stop the virus from spreading, thus "insurance" of a changed future. The REAL brain cooker is this: if she stops the lab assistant, what about the TSA agent that checked him through? The agent searching his equipment was exposed before ANYONE could stop him.
We cant change the past Time traveling to the past means youre in that time in the future your future its already set. When you change something all you can hope for is a new branching off of timelines but itll NEVER fix the place you have come from because you did exist there in your past and the time youre moving "back to" is now the future in your perception This is well defined quantam phenomenon
The lady on the plane has travelled through time to collect the virus in its pure form, now that James has identified the culprit. She's called the astrophysicist in the original script. She's humanity's insurance. She certainly hasn't come back to try and stop the outbreak, as the film has already (repeatedly) established it's one immutable timeline premise.
I disagree totally, She was sent from the future to get the pure form of the virus, they talk about that the whole movie. And it wasn't established that you can't change the past at all, not enough that would stop them trying. Movie makes sense I've watched it like 20 times, probably my favorite movie that's not original trilogy star wars. Shit take guys.... shit.
Yes, she was insurance in case Cole failed to shoot him but figured out was him and she was on the plane as backup to make sure she got the pure form of the virus. Is that what you’re saying?
Umm, please excuse my question. But why is the boy at the airport? Not catching a flight, not sending off anyone and not picking up any arrival... so why?
The thought I had--extraneous as it may be--is that that little boy would grow up to be, and experience the potentially germ-free life--that Bruce Willis's character couldn't. Madeline Stowe's character looks at him in a very calculating way, then seems to be calmed by seeing him, as if to say, oh, I see, even though you're (Bruce) going to die, this little boy will take your place. Maybe the scientists under the ground predicted he was going to go rogue, and set up some kind of test tube with Willis's ID or DNA, that allowed the little boy to emerge however many years before, when he was "born".
I disagree with this idea. The beginning of the movie establishes where they came up with the idea of the Army of the 12 Monkeys. Cole is on the surface exploring and comes across the symbol and "We Did It" under the symbol. The Scientists researched the information the best they could around this movement. The movie also establishes that others have already made the trip through time so Cole is not a one-off. There may be even people from the future that found a way to stay in the past(The homeless guy without teeth and the preacher). I believe call made by Cole was the last piece the scientists needed. The female scientist went back b/c she had the understanding to learn about the pure virus and take that information back to the future. The female Scientist killing the man would not stop the virus now since is was already released in the airport. But she could get a sample(Which we'll never see), find out how it works in the past timeline before being pulled back into the future to create a cure. But then you could say she could have come up with a cure in the past timeline and stopping the virus thus altering the future. Plus, an insurance agent and people like her aren't going to be able to build a time machine no matter how much time you give them. Only top scientists are going to be able even conceive the idea on how to build one and somehow navigate through time.
@@camelhp121 loved these thoughts! The last point especially is what I struggle with… I go back and forth between them being good scientists or ppl who figured out how to time travel halfway decent enough… if time travel had already been established then maybe non scientists could figure it out… the movie doesnt give us this detail though so I get your points for sure… there are some moments that make me think they arent actually that smart though so idk lol. Honestly I’m gonna rewatch this soon and see if I do a 180 on this thought 🤣 -Nick
I always thought she was a time traveler too and that the “insurance” was her going back to make sure things happened in a specific way so that her and her cohorts remain the ones in charge in the future, but I’m not sure if that even makes sense. Something tells me that neither interpretation is right or wrong
The more optimistic (and idealistic) interpretation is, no, she didn't actually start out as a scientist, but she herself wanted to do all she could to save the rest of humanity from the germs and the virus that David Morse's character was trying to spread. So, given that it is impossible to go back (agreed), she may have been as delusional as Willis's character.
Can someone explain. How did Dr. Raily "remember" James Cole the first time they met. Throughout the movie she says she feels like she has always known him somehow?
Great question, tough answer 😅… best thought is that Dr Raily has had that WW1 photo for awhile and so had seen an image of Cole before not realizing it was him until much later in the film. Of course we don’t know exactly how long she has been in possession of that photo if my memory serves me right… -Nick
I also get stuck on this one. Dr. Raily, toward the end of the film when she firsts start showing affection to him, says , "i remember you like this" which makes no sense. Ok sure she knows of the photo before ever meeting Cole, but that don't explain that odd statement. makes me think there's a deleted scene i missed somewhere. I also don't understand how the guy that calls him bob is able to communicate with Cole when he is alone. does the tooth tracking device also allow for communication? why does a bum/rejected time traveler get to talk to 'bob'?
@@erickelly8875 I swear watching this film brings a different thought everytime. It’s so good in that way, and also slightly frustrating because it does feel as though there are deleted scenes at times 🤣 - Nick
I think when she was writing her thesis. She had his picture from the mustard gas attack where cole was shot. She knew she'd seen him somewhere. @MayTheReviewBeWithYou
It was explained to Cole in the future where the outbreaks started throughout the world. When you see the guy carrying the virus in the movie when he gets his tickets, he is travelling to all of those places. They want Cole to shoot him at the airport before he gets on the plane to stop him spreading the virus as he travels on his world tour. The women on the plane was one of the scientists in the future who came back when they realized that Cole failed to kill the guy with the virus, because... remember they need to get a pure sample of the virus to try and counteract the virus in the future. As he had already released it in the airport, and he had the rest of the virus in the test tubes...she was there as insurance to get the original pure sample of the virus and bring it back to the future, which is why she said she was in insurance. Your theory is so ridiculous, and I cannot understand why you can't understand this simple movie plot!
@@chrisballantyne7857 Awesome explanation. I think Joe was with you on this until I chimed in with the whole, “she is literally an insurance” thing… and honestly I keep going back n forth between them being good scientists or ppl who figured out how to time travel halfway decent enough… if time travel had already been established then maybe non scientists could figure it out… the movie doesnt give us this detail though so I get your points for sure… there are some moments that make me think they arent actually that smart though so idk lol. Honestly I’m gonna rewatch this soon and see if I do a 180 on this thought 😅
@2:44 a notably literal interpretation of what the Astrophysicist/Jones character means when she says "I'm in insurance." Like the Spanish Inquisition, I did not expect that.
You make a good point. One interesting fact is that bureaucratic incompetence is a theme of Terry Gilliam’s work, in movies like Brazil. Your interpretation would tie into that.
And, given Willis's political leanings, that also likely attracted him to the project. In Armageddon, the govt ended up illegally reproducing the drill bit his company developed to explore for oil in outer space, then dragged him halfway around the world to ask for his help because they didn't reproduce it effectively enough. I could easily imagine Willis ad-libbing or otherwise influencing the script or production to cast the govt in the worst light (whether or not it was actually based on a true story)
The super bad audio quality is unfortunate ..the guy on the right is really hard to follow but still a very interesting video. I also see some story elements of this movie (which is a book adaptation btw) in Nolan's TENET.
Thanks for the comment! Apologies for the poor audio. Joe was having very bad internet connection that day. Typically the audio is much better. Great callout on similarities with Tenet! Very loop esque for sure!
BUZZZ. Wrong! 12 Monkeys is NOT and I repeat NOT adapted from a book, but a 1965 short movie called "La Jette" by French filmmaker Chris Marker, the screenplay is adapted by David and Janet Peoples. Neither is TENET based off any book. It's an original screenplay and idea.
She went back in time to get the original unmutated virus. She was insuring the job got done cause Bruce lead them to the location where the virus wss first released. Maybe slowing herself to be infected to return to the future to study the pure virus to develop the cure so that they can return to the surface
Exactly. Cole couldn't stop the lab assistant, can't change time also, what happens happens. They knew that in the future, and so they sent the astrophysicist older lady back in time to where Cole discovered the pure virus would be. If you notice, the lab assistant infects the TSA agent first. Stopping him after that wouldn't matter. Shes insurance, to make sure the virus is collected and taken to the future to be studied, and to ensure that the timeline isn't interrupted at the same time. I suspect also, that there were certain people that are IMMUNE to this virus, and she's one of them. In fact, the "rulers" may all be immune. They're the 0.0001 percent of humanity with that gift. They may be hiding that fact.....
Once the future scientists new that Peters ( the lab assistant) is the one spreading the virus around the world, they should have just sent back "agents" to retrieve the original virus from Peters at the airport. Since in this predetermined time loop the pandemic can't be prevented by any past actions, it would have still happended but the scientists would have had their original virus for their vaccine efforts. This way, they would have exploited the predeterministic nature of the time loop to achieve their aim.
Few things, the insurance lady looks the exact same age as she does in 2035. Thats about 40 years so she should look noticeably younger if she not time traveling. Also, not having the right smart people in place in the future makes the likelihood of time travel discovery impossible right? Unless those particular experts just so happen to be spared from the disease and their resources for research went on how? I literally just watched this movie and loved it. But i dont have any decent explanation other than time traveling was becoming refined as the movie went on. Like whats stopping the scientist in a possible 2135 with better time traveling techniques from trying to communicate with those in 2035 on how to perfect time travel at a faster rate. I only say this because i had a feeling that the homeless guy voice came up before the actual guy and the voice sounded like it was from another further future with more insight on time travel overall than those in 2035
No, she IS from the future because the telephone call went through so the future people know the 12 Monkeys Army isn't _directly_ involved, and the lab assistant ALREADY opened the vial in front of that idiot inspector. They are involved at a secondary level, they point to the conspiracy theorist who actually does spread the virus. Remember, Cole's friend (the WWI guy on the litter) comes back and _hears the psychiatrist tell Cole that the vector is the lab assistant._ That's why he comes back - it's a pointed reference, a foreshadowing, so the audience knows a phone call or message from our time dimension can be acted upon by the future dimension people in what seems to us like 5 minutes. The woman on the plane isn't actually in insurance 🙄. They screw up with the time travel because they were just beginning to use it. No insurance salesman could invent time travel, especially under drastic conditions. She carried back the virus, in its pure form, so the remnant of mankind can be inoculated. It was implied that the virus spread, wiped out the population, and then mutated. They can't collect the original deadly form, but neither can they chance going to the surface and bringing down a mutated form - that's why Cole has to keep bringing back biological samples -to check the mutations.
@@carbine090909 Awesome explanation. I think Joe was with you on this until I chimed in with the whole, “she is literally an insurance” thing… and honestly I keep going back n forth between them being good scientists or ppl who figured out how to time travel halfway decent enough… if time travel had already been established then maybe non scientists could figure it out… the movie doesnt give us this detail though so I get your points for sure… there are some moments that make me think they arent actually that smart though so idk lol. Honestly I’m gonna rewatch this soon and see if I do a 180 on this thought 😅 We are planning to dive a bit deeper in 2025. We’ve had some people tell us our theory makes some sense based on Gilliams other films and source material…. So we’ll see what comes of it! -Nick
@MayTheReviewBeWithYou I can't wait for the deep dive! This is one of my very favorite movies. When you rewatch it, do so twice, and on the second watch, put yourself in Cole's shoes, and then pay attention to Bruce Willis' performance. It's brilliant. He plays a clever man, a sane man surrounded by the insane (both future and past), reduced to the animal instincts of a sewer rat, trying to hold onto what he remembers of love and humanity (the kind of love he saw between that couple he saw in the airport as a boy, from the kindness he saw in that woman's eyes). That airport moment stayed with him, it's why they keep showing you close-ups of the kid's eyes, because it kept him sane and humane throughout his traumatizing life. It's only when he meets another truly sane and loving person that you see how sane he actually is. It's the interaction between people that determines sanity - not simply their thoughts. I still think the "insurance" lady was from the future - that gaggle of scientists and ersatz leaders were actually doing pretty well under the circumstances. I mean sure, you filter it through a Terry Giliam lens, and red lipstick is always gonna be garish and clipboards are always gonna be a bad omen for your health, but really, in an apocalyptic scenario, too much bureaucracy (earning pardons for unspecified crimes, e.g.) might be preferable to none at all. 🤷🏼♀️ At any rate, I think she is toasting with champagne because they finally found the vector, and because she got to visit the past and I think it must feel fancy after living underground for so long. It's cinematic shorthand - otherwise you'd have to make up an entire backstory for why this insurance lady is toasting her good fortune on take-off, and how she ended up amongst a cadré of lab coats in the aftermath of a pandemic. If I know one thing about scientists, it's that, sure, they might have to kiss bureaucratic ass sometimes, but they definitely don't hang around to cuddle afterwards. And doctors _especially_ are sworn enemies of insurance companies. She's insurance for the human race,and she's being coy because she knows who she is talking to (the vector). We can't say she's a villain of the typical Gilliam bureaucratic type, because she is very likely sacrificing herself for humanity's survival. There are other examples - Robert DeNiro's character in Brazil isn't exactly a hero's hero, and the same with Agamemnon or Robin Hood, or even God in Time Bandits. They all have a bit of "f* it" running through them. And if you want to judge by Gilliam precedents, Time Bandits is entirely about popping up in unexpected place-times, but God isn't written as an incompetent fool - the "mistakes" aren't mistakes, they're evident features of time travel. 👍🏼
@@carbine090909 your details here are impressive!! Very insightful! Thank you for taking the time to write it 💪🏻 Looking forward to discussing more after our deep dive 🫡
Since it's possible to carry objects through time, (like Cole's WWI bullet still embeded in his thigh in 1996), she or someone from the future should have just retreived a sample from the airport back to the future. Whether this meant killing Peters wouldn't matter since the pandemic is always meant to happen.
She isn’t an insurance agent. She’s an astrophysicist if I recall correctly. Watch the movie with the sub titles. The movie present is set in 2035. How does she look the same in 1996 and 2035? You guys are thinking so hard your ideas have gone stupid imo lol
@ you guys made me think I was way off all these years for a second lol You could be on to something but it needs some tweaking. Remember they can be “teleported” back and forth from time lines.
@@danieldemayo6209 ha! Its funny you say this because we are planning to dive a bit deeper in 2025. We’ve had some people tell us our theory makes some sense based on Gilliams other films and source material…. So we’ll see what comes of it!
Too many mutation of the virus in the future. They need the first version from the beginning. Once Cole found it, the old lady is There to be infected and to bring back that first virus. Since one traval naked, she has to be infected to brind it back. Then, in the future, they could find a cure for all the mutations. Cole had a good memory and observation. That's why he was choosen to find the version that has been spreed.
@@claudegagnon5991 woah so you are saying she came back to actually get infected since the movie essentially establishes that they cant time travel with anything… 🤔🤔
I just finish the 2 hours movies, and I didn't expect so many different explanation to the ending..... For me everything else is understandable, until the insurance agent(future science leader) appear on the plane
@@davidthen123 it totally throws a wrench into everything lmao Honestly we are planning on doing a rewatch soon ourselves to see if we think of any other possibilites 😅 -Nick
@@JD-rw1le 🤣🤣 I hear you… my main point is that its possible if time travel had already been established prior to the virus, just not perfected. In which case the “smartest” ppl left may be able to at least operate it… in my opinion its possible because they all seem so unsure of how the time travel works and have not improved it either … but also, 🤷♂️ lol -Nick
Good catch. It's just an easter egg and I don't think it's meant to be the 'big twist.' But pretty much all of Gilliam's films are focused on human incompetence and the failures of bureaucracy. Watch the source film sometime! 1962 short film Le Jetée. All black and white still photography. You can kinda see how Gilliam's brain works when you compare the two.
@@djdksf1 absolutely love this! We will definitely be revisting 12 monkeys and other Gilliam films in 2025. Watching the source film is a great idea 💪🏻 -Nick
One man's incompetence could be another man's futility. There are good and bad people in all enterprises. How did the astrophysicist become an astrophysicist? Was she one of the last few standing after the initial spread of germs, and was then recruited to help solve this issue retroactively? The group of scientists seemed genuinely excited when Willis's character was seemingly making progress on finding the 12 Monkeys. Willis did his best to shoot and kill the germ spreader; labeling that failure as incompetence seems a bit harsh. If we followed the story after the two characters got on the plane, maybe the astrophysicist would have killed the germ spreader, or alternately arranged to have his germs deactivated (yes, it is a science fiction film!). But if Gilliam had written and directed it, she likely would have failed, too. The message I took away? We may fail at what we intend, but we do the best we can with what he have to help others with the information we have at that given time
I saw this when it was released back in 95 and I loved it. But I only watched it 1 time. So now in 2024, I didn't remember it at all. I only remembered that I loved it. I just watched it again after all these years & I didn't care for it. Now I'm thinking I got it mixed up with some other movie & this isn't the movie I loved. I might've hated 12 Monkeys and got it mixed up with something else. I pretty much hate time travel movies and I hate movies that raise a million questions and then end up leaving you scratching your head in confusion.
I can't buy that the insurance agent is one of the smartest people left because, even if the time travel is sometimes inconsistent and wrong, they built a time machine for crying out loud, lol. Anyways, interesting theory, but I don't subscribe to that part of it.
Ha! Totally hear you on this. I think in order for my theory to work time travel would have to have been already invented or mostly invented… before the smartest people died from the virus. Appreciate your thoughts! -Nick
I always thought that when she said "She was in insurance" that meant that she was giving a double entendre. Telling Dr. Peters that she was in insurance (as in someone who sells insurance) but she was really there to ensure that everything plays out exactly as it should so that in the future she will be in charge. 1995 was 30 years in the past yet she looks the same age, so I assume she went back in time to keep things on track. I also assume that she was instrumental in taking so long to restore the voice messages and in sending Cole to the wrong times etc. With time travel, they can just wait until the re-constructed phone messages are finished before sending people back in time, there's no need for the agents to be sent into the past without all the information they need... or the first agent gets sent back to figure things out, leave the phone messages and then future agents can go back and make sure the correct target has been dealt with. Also, when Jose gives Cole the gun at the airport he says to Cole that he has to keep doing what he was sent to do otherwise he (Jose) has to shoot the girl (Kathryn). This is to motivate Cole to run through the ariport with a gun to get shot, exactly as it originally happened. In my opinion, that "future Leader" wanted to make sure that she will always be the "future Leader".
Awesome explanation. I think Joe was with you on this until I chimed in with the whole, “she is literally an insurance” thing… and honestly I keep going back n forth. You might say I have found myself in a loop of explanations 😅
-Nick
I agree with this assessment. Insurance was meant not as a profession but saying she was insuring that they acquired the virus in its pure form. Cole was always going to die and in a way I believe that was the punishment for trying to stay in the past. He was just collateral damage.
@@RR64434 first of all great timing. You watched this a day ago for me. Which is a weird thing to say because all these other people watched this movie and this explanation either a year or more ago. So in a strange way, I’m experiencing talking to somebody in a closer to present timeline. Anyway, I thought that’s what she was doing. She was ensuring that they completed the mission and got the pure version to save the future. But it could be any of these explanations. She could be ensuring that she is the future leader. Or she could just be an insurance agent.
@@poopinfinoopin4907correct. Jose says that Cole figured everything out, he succeeded in finding the pure virus. Since in 2035 they knew that Cole would fail at shooting the lab assistant, the old lady came back to 1996 herself. She is there to stop the virus from spreading, thus "insurance" of a changed future.
The REAL brain cooker is this: if she stops the lab assistant, what about the TSA agent that checked him through? The agent searching his equipment was exposed before ANYONE could stop him.
We cant change the past
Time traveling to the past means youre in that time in the future your future its already set.
When you change something all you can hope for is a new branching off of timelines but itll NEVER fix the place you have come from because you did exist there in your past and the time youre moving "back to" is now the future in your perception
This is well defined quantam phenomenon
The lady on the plane has travelled through time to collect the virus in its pure form, now that James has identified the culprit. She's called the astrophysicist in the original script. She's humanity's insurance. She certainly hasn't come back to try and stop the outbreak, as the film has already (repeatedly) established it's one immutable timeline premise.
I agree with your assessment. And the host here is wrong. Is that what you’re saying?
Correct. The TSA agent was infected first while checking the lab assistant through.
It wouldn't matter if he were stopped after that.
but that major one city versus all the other targets. So stopping him there definitely curbs the infection rate some what
I disagree totally, She was sent from the future to get the pure form of the virus, they talk about that the whole movie. And it wasn't established that you can't change the past at all, not enough that would stop them trying. Movie makes sense I've watched it like 20 times, probably my favorite movie that's not original trilogy star wars. Shit take guys.... shit.
20 times?! Thats certainly impressive. I really did enjoy this film. Will have to circle back one day and see if my thoughts change 😅
-Nick
Ya she looks old
Do you know how the main character calling on a number sent a message through future..I mean what was the significance of the number
Yes, she was insurance in case Cole failed to shoot him but figured out was him and she was on the plane as backup to make sure she got the pure form of the virus. Is that what you’re saying?
@@madlynx1818 Yes, that was my take, whether or not it was the correct one
Umm, please excuse my question. But why is the boy at the airport? Not catching a flight, not sending off anyone and not picking up any arrival... so why?
The thought I had--extraneous as it may be--is that that little boy would grow up to be, and experience the potentially germ-free life--that Bruce Willis's character couldn't. Madeline Stowe's character looks at him in a very calculating way, then seems to be calmed by seeing him, as if to say, oh, I see, even though you're (Bruce) going to die, this little boy will take your place. Maybe the scientists under the ground predicted he was going to go rogue, and set up some kind of test tube with Willis's ID or DNA, that allowed the little boy to emerge however many years before, when he was "born".
He is just a McGuffin.
I disagree with this idea. The beginning of the movie establishes where they came up with the idea of the Army of the 12 Monkeys. Cole is on the surface exploring and comes across the symbol and "We Did It" under the symbol. The Scientists researched the information the best they could around this movement. The movie also establishes that others have already made the trip through time so Cole is not a one-off. There may be even people from the future that found a way to stay in the past(The homeless guy without teeth and the preacher).
I believe call made by Cole was the last piece the scientists needed. The female scientist went back b/c she had the understanding to learn about the pure virus and take that information back to the future. The female Scientist killing the man would not stop the virus now since is was already released in the airport. But she could get a sample(Which we'll never see), find out how it works in the past timeline before being pulled back into the future to create a cure. But then you could say she could have come up with a cure in the past timeline and stopping the virus thus altering the future.
Plus, an insurance agent and people like her aren't going to be able to build a time machine no matter how much time you give them. Only top scientists are going to be able even conceive the idea on how to build one and somehow navigate through time.
@@camelhp121 loved these thoughts! The last point especially is what I struggle with… I go back and forth between them being good scientists or ppl who figured out how to time travel halfway decent enough… if time travel had already been established then maybe non scientists could figure it out… the movie doesnt give us this detail though so I get your points for sure… there are some moments that make me think they arent actually that smart though so idk lol. Honestly I’m gonna rewatch this soon and see if I do a 180 on this thought 🤣
-Nick
"She's, Actually an Astrophysicist ... Using 'Worm-holes' for the Time Machine's ... Operation "
She's insuring she gets the pure virus by directly getting a seat on the plane beside Dr. Peters. Brilliant writing!
@@ՆաթանիելՄաշ love this film!
I always thought she was a time traveler too and that the “insurance” was her going back to make sure things happened in a specific way so that her and her cohorts remain the ones in charge in the future, but I’m not sure if that even makes sense. Something tells me that neither interpretation is right or wrong
@@78deathface well said! I love how its not totally clear
-Nick
The more optimistic (and idealistic) interpretation is, no, she didn't actually start out as a scientist, but she herself wanted to do all she could to save the rest of humanity from the germs and the virus that David Morse's character was trying to spread. So, given that it is impossible to go back (agreed), she may have been as delusional as Willis's character.
Can someone explain. How did Dr. Raily "remember" James Cole the first time they met. Throughout the movie she says she feels like she has always known him somehow?
Great question, tough answer 😅… best thought is that Dr Raily has had that WW1 photo for awhile and so had seen an image of Cole before not realizing it was him until much later in the film. Of course we don’t know exactly how long she has been in possession of that photo if my memory serves me right…
-Nick
I also get stuck on this one. Dr. Raily, toward the end of the film when she firsts start showing affection to him, says , "i remember you like this" which makes no sense. Ok sure she knows of the photo before ever meeting Cole, but that don't explain that odd statement. makes me think there's a deleted scene i missed somewhere. I also don't understand how the guy that calls him bob is able to communicate with Cole when he is alone. does the tooth tracking device also allow for communication? why does a bum/rejected time traveler get to talk to 'bob'?
@@erickelly8875 I swear watching this film brings a different thought everytime. It’s so good in that way, and also slightly frustrating because it does feel as though there are deleted scenes at times 🤣
- Nick
I think when she was writing her thesis. She had his picture from the mustard gas attack where cole was shot. She knew she'd seen him somewhere. @MayTheReviewBeWithYou
Deja vu
It was explained to Cole in the future where the outbreaks started throughout the world. When you see the guy carrying the virus in the movie when he gets his tickets, he is travelling to all of those places. They want Cole to shoot him at the airport before he gets on the plane to stop him spreading the virus as he travels on his world tour. The women on the plane was one of the scientists in the future who came back when they realized that Cole failed to kill the guy with the virus, because... remember they need to get a pure sample of the virus to try and counteract the virus in the future. As he had already released it in the airport, and he had the rest of the virus in the test tubes...she was there as insurance to get the original pure sample of the virus and bring it back to the future, which is why she said she was in insurance. Your theory is so ridiculous, and I cannot understand why you can't understand this simple movie plot!
@@chrisballantyne7857 Awesome explanation. I think Joe was with you on this until I chimed in with the whole, “she is literally an insurance” thing… and honestly I keep going back n forth between them being good scientists or ppl who figured out how to time travel halfway decent enough… if time travel had already been established then maybe non scientists could figure it out… the movie doesnt give us this detail though so I get your points for sure… there are some moments that make me think they arent actually that smart though so idk lol. Honestly I’m gonna rewatch this soon and see if I do a 180 on this thought 😅
@2:44 a notably literal interpretation of what the Astrophysicist/Jones character means when she says "I'm in insurance." Like the Spanish Inquisition, I did not expect that.
There's also the irony of the insurance/scientist lady is carrying the answer (the original virus) the whole time 😂
@@nftminter7922 🤣🤣
You make a good point. One interesting fact is that bureaucratic incompetence is a theme of Terry Gilliam’s work, in movies like Brazil. Your interpretation would tie into that.
@@KenmanG1982 love this insight with Gilliams work!
And, given Willis's political leanings, that also likely attracted him to the project. In Armageddon, the govt ended up illegally reproducing the drill bit his company developed to explore for oil in outer space, then dragged him halfway around the world to ask for his help because they didn't reproduce it effectively enough. I could easily imagine Willis ad-libbing or otherwise influencing the script or production to cast the govt in the worst light (whether or not it was actually based on a true story)
The super bad audio quality is unfortunate ..the guy on the right is really hard to follow but still a very interesting video.
I also see some story elements of this movie (which is a book adaptation btw) in Nolan's TENET.
Thanks for the comment! Apologies for the poor audio. Joe was having very bad internet connection that day. Typically the audio is much better. Great callout on similarities with Tenet! Very loop esque for sure!
It was very unfortunate! 😭I have since figured out my mic problems. Hopefully future Time Travel movie discussions will be audible on my end
BUZZZ. Wrong! 12 Monkeys is NOT and I repeat NOT adapted from a book, but a 1965 short movie called "La Jette" by French filmmaker Chris Marker, the screenplay is adapted by David and Janet Peoples. Neither is TENET based off any book. It's an original screenplay and idea.
I think the scientists were executing Cole at the end.
She went back in time to get the original unmutated virus. She was insuring the job got done cause Bruce lead them to the location where the virus wss first released. Maybe slowing herself to be infected to return to the future to study the pure virus to develop the cure so that they can return to the surface
Exactly. Cole couldn't stop the lab assistant, can't change time also, what happens happens. They knew that in the future, and so they sent the astrophysicist older lady back in time to where Cole discovered the pure virus would be.
If you notice, the lab assistant infects the TSA agent first. Stopping him after that wouldn't matter.
Shes insurance, to make sure the virus is collected and taken to the future to be studied, and to ensure that the timeline isn't interrupted at the same time.
I suspect also, that there were certain people that are IMMUNE to this virus, and she's one of them. In fact, the "rulers" may all be immune. They're the 0.0001 percent of humanity with that gift. They may be hiding that fact.....
You can’t go back
In time, to a time that produced you anyway; the universe doesn’t deal in infinities.
The movie “Zero Theorem” takes place in the same universe as 12 Monkeys…
Once the future scientists new that Peters ( the lab assistant) is the one spreading the virus around the world, they should have just sent back "agents" to retrieve the original virus from Peters at the airport.
Since in this predetermined time loop the pandemic can't be prevented by any past actions, it would have still happended but the scientists would have had their original virus for their vaccine efforts.
This way, they would have exploited the predeterministic nature of the time loop to achieve their aim.
Few things, the insurance lady looks the exact same age as she does in 2035. Thats about 40 years so she should look noticeably younger if she not time traveling.
Also, not having the right smart people in place in the future makes the likelihood of time travel discovery impossible right? Unless those particular experts just so happen to be spared from the disease and their resources for research went on how?
I literally just watched this movie and loved it. But i dont have any decent explanation other than time traveling was becoming refined as the movie went on. Like whats stopping the scientist in a possible 2135 with better time traveling techniques from trying to communicate with those in 2035 on how to perfect time travel at a faster rate. I only say this because i had a feeling that the homeless guy voice came up before the actual guy and the voice sounded like it was from another further future with more insight on time travel overall than those in 2035
@@insectspimtech3902 love the idea of the time travel getting more refined as it goes on!
No, she IS from the future because the telephone call went through so the future people know the 12 Monkeys Army isn't _directly_ involved, and the lab assistant ALREADY opened the vial in front of that idiot inspector. They are involved at a secondary level, they point to the conspiracy theorist who actually does spread the virus. Remember, Cole's friend (the WWI guy on the litter) comes back and _hears the psychiatrist tell Cole that the vector is the lab assistant._ That's why he comes back - it's a pointed reference, a foreshadowing, so the audience knows a phone call or message from our time dimension can be acted upon by the future dimension people in what seems to us like 5 minutes. The woman on the plane isn't actually in insurance 🙄. They screw up with the time travel because they were just beginning to use it. No insurance salesman could invent time travel, especially under drastic conditions. She carried back the virus, in its pure form, so the remnant of mankind can be inoculated. It was implied that the virus spread, wiped out the population, and then mutated. They can't collect the original deadly form, but neither can they chance going to the surface and bringing down a mutated form - that's why Cole has to keep bringing back biological samples -to check the mutations.
@@carbine090909
Awesome explanation. I think Joe was with you on this until I chimed in with the whole, “she is literally an insurance” thing… and honestly I keep going back n forth between them being good scientists or ppl who figured out how to time travel halfway decent enough… if time travel had already been established then maybe non scientists could figure it out… the movie doesnt give us this detail though so I get your points for sure… there are some moments that make me think they arent actually that smart though so idk lol. Honestly I’m gonna rewatch this soon and see if I do a 180 on this thought 😅
We are planning to dive a bit deeper in 2025. We’ve had some people tell us our theory makes some sense based on Gilliams other films and source material…. So we’ll see what comes of it!
-Nick
@MayTheReviewBeWithYou I can't wait for the deep dive! This is one of my very favorite movies. When you rewatch it, do so twice, and on the second watch, put yourself in Cole's shoes, and then pay attention to Bruce Willis' performance. It's brilliant. He plays a clever man, a sane man surrounded by the insane (both future and past), reduced to the animal instincts of a sewer rat, trying to hold onto what he remembers of love and humanity (the kind of love he saw between that couple he saw in the airport as a boy, from the kindness he saw in that woman's eyes). That airport moment stayed with him, it's why they keep showing you close-ups of the kid's eyes, because it kept him sane and humane throughout his traumatizing life. It's only when he meets another truly sane and loving person that you see how sane he actually is. It's the interaction between people that determines sanity - not simply their thoughts.
I still think the "insurance" lady was from the future - that gaggle of scientists and ersatz leaders were actually doing pretty well under the circumstances. I mean sure, you filter it through a Terry Giliam lens, and red lipstick is always gonna be garish and clipboards are always gonna be a bad omen for your health, but really, in an apocalyptic scenario, too much bureaucracy (earning pardons for unspecified crimes, e.g.) might be preferable to none at all. 🤷🏼♀️ At any rate, I think she is toasting with champagne because they finally found the vector, and because she got to visit the past and I think it must feel fancy after living underground for so long. It's cinematic shorthand - otherwise you'd have to make up an entire backstory for why this insurance lady is toasting her good fortune on take-off, and how she ended up amongst a cadré of lab coats in the aftermath of a pandemic. If I know one thing about scientists, it's that, sure, they might have to kiss bureaucratic ass sometimes, but they definitely don't hang around to cuddle afterwards. And doctors _especially_ are sworn enemies of insurance companies. She's insurance for the human race,and she's being coy because she knows who she is talking to (the vector). We can't say she's a villain of the typical Gilliam bureaucratic type, because she is very likely sacrificing herself for humanity's survival. There are other examples - Robert DeNiro's character in Brazil isn't exactly a hero's hero, and the same with Agamemnon or Robin Hood, or even God in Time Bandits. They all have a bit of "f* it" running through them.
And if you want to judge by Gilliam precedents, Time Bandits is entirely about popping up in unexpected place-times, but God isn't written as an incompetent fool - the "mistakes" aren't mistakes, they're evident features of time travel. 👍🏼
@@carbine090909 your details here are impressive!! Very insightful! Thank you for taking the time to write it 💪🏻
Looking forward to discussing more after our deep dive 🫡
Since it's possible to carry objects through time, (like Cole's WWI bullet still embeded in his thigh in 1996), she or someone from the future should have just retreived a sample from the airport back to the future. Whether this meant killing Peters wouldn't matter since the pandemic is always meant to happen.
She isn’t an insurance agent. She’s an astrophysicist if I recall correctly. Watch the movie with the sub titles. The movie present is set in 2035. How does she look the same in 1996 and 2035? You guys are thinking so hard your ideas have gone stupid imo lol
@@danieldemayo6209 🤣🤣 maybe we are thinking too hard cause her looking the same doesnt help my theory AT all 😭
-Nick
@ you guys made me think I was way off all these years for a second lol You could be on to something but it needs some tweaking. Remember they can be “teleported” back and forth from time lines.
@@danieldemayo6209 ha! Its funny you say this because we are planning to dive a bit deeper in 2025. We’ve had some people tell us our theory makes some sense based on Gilliams other films and source material…. So we’ll see what comes of it!
Too many mutation of the virus in the future. They need the first version from the beginning.
Once Cole found it, the old lady is There to be infected and to bring back that first virus. Since one traval naked, she has to be infected to brind it back.
Then, in the future, they could find a cure for all the mutations.
Cole had a good memory and observation. That's why he was choosen to find the version that has been spreed.
@@claudegagnon5991 woah so you are saying she came back to actually get infected since the movie essentially establishes that they cant time travel with anything… 🤔🤔
I just finish the 2 hours movies, and I didn't expect so many different explanation to the ending.....
For me everything else is understandable, until the insurance agent(future science leader) appear on the plane
@@davidthen123 it totally throws a wrench into everything lmao
Honestly we are planning on doing a rewatch soon ourselves to see if we think of any other possibilites 😅
-Nick
This guy really thinks an aging insurance agent can just turn to a top scientist and invent time travel within 30 years in the future 😂
@@JD-rw1le 🤣🤣 I hear you… my main point is that its possible if time travel had already been established prior to the virus, just not perfected. In which case the “smartest” ppl left may be able to at least operate it… in my opinion its possible because they all seem so unsure of how the time travel works and have not improved it either … but also, 🤷♂️ lol
-Nick
She didn’t age after 40 years? She even makes a face when she says she’s in insurance. Pretty damn sure she just comes back to get the virus sample
@@c87kim her not looking younger does cause a problem for my theory Ill admit! 🤣
-Nick
Good catch. It's just an easter egg and I don't think it's meant to be the 'big twist.' But pretty much all of Gilliam's films are focused on human incompetence and the failures of bureaucracy. Watch the source film sometime! 1962 short film Le Jetée. All black and white still photography. You can kinda see how Gilliam's brain works when you compare the two.
@@djdksf1 absolutely love this! We will definitely be revisting 12 monkeys and other Gilliam films in 2025. Watching the source film is a great idea 💪🏻
-Nick
One man's incompetence could be another man's futility. There are good and bad people in all enterprises. How did the astrophysicist become an astrophysicist? Was she one of the last few standing after the initial spread of germs, and was then recruited to help solve this issue retroactively? The group of scientists seemed genuinely excited when Willis's character was seemingly making progress on finding the 12 Monkeys. Willis did his best to shoot and kill the germ spreader; labeling that failure as incompetence seems a bit harsh. If we followed the story after the two characters got on the plane, maybe the astrophysicist would have killed the germ spreader, or alternately arranged to have his germs deactivated (yes, it is a science fiction film!). But if Gilliam had written and directed it, she likely would have failed, too. The message I took away? We may fail at what we intend, but we do the best we can with what he have to help others with the information we have at that given time
I saw this when it was released back in 95 and I loved it. But I only watched it 1 time. So now in 2024, I didn't remember it at all. I only remembered that I loved it. I just watched it again after all these years & I didn't care for it. Now I'm thinking I got it mixed up with some other movie & this isn't the movie I loved. I might've hated 12 Monkeys and got it mixed up with something else. I pretty much hate time travel movies and I hate movies that raise a million questions and then end up leaving you scratching your head in confusion.
@@sci-fi.tsunami 🤣🤣 well now I want to know which movie you got it mixed up with
I can't buy that the insurance agent is one of the smartest people left because, even if the time travel is sometimes inconsistent and wrong, they built a time machine for crying out loud, lol. Anyways, interesting theory, but I don't subscribe to that part of it.
Ha! Totally hear you on this. I think in order for my theory to work time travel would have to have been already invented or mostly invented… before the smartest people died from the virus. Appreciate your thoughts!
-Nick
@@MayTheReviewBeWithYou I may have missed that part if you mentioned it in the video. My bad if you did!
@@KingdomeBleachers I think I did but either way its an awesome movie just for all the differences of opinion!
The tv series is actually good
@@gomguppie2 we will have to check it out!
Plot twist this is the Matrix
Indeed it may be