I love DOTA2. But this may be the end. Here's why...
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Let's talk about Dota 2 today. While the game is a 10/10, most people would agree that its community has issues, and today I wanna tell you my thoughts on it, and my future with the game.
I love DOTA2. But this may be the end. Here's why... (Live on 13-March-2024)
Catch me live all days of the week at: / grubby
Join my community on / discord
#GrubbyTalks #React #Thoughts #Dota2 #Toxicity #Break #ByeForNow #DotaEnd
I found you through your dota 2 streams, and I'll be staying through whatever you decide to play instead because you're just a delight to watch no matter what you're playing. I loved watching you play dota because unlike watching pros playing, I was watching someone who was also figuring out some stuff here and there, someone who tried new heroes and new things that they weren't good at and it was okay! But I know a good part of the community doesn't think the same, a lot of people seem to be more focused on telling you that you're bad instead of enjoying the pure chaos of someone trying to learn a new role or a new hero at high mmr.
But again! You're a lovely person and your streams are great, if you're no longer having fun with the game, then don't force yourself! Keep the good memories you made, and we'll move on with you into the next thing!
Thank you for everything Grubby, keep up the good work!
I mean what do u expect from them? the game hasnt seen innvoation in last 20 year. they literally stole whole dota 2 idea from warcraft 3 custom map community. they don't even have balls to make more then 1 gamemode. in fact they don't even understand the essence of MOBA genre. they still think that MOBA genre is DOTA aka Defend of the Ancinents when in fact it was 100 00 00 00 0 of community made maps. just like league of legends. MOBA studios that still only catter to conquest/DOT playeraers are outdated. that is why ARENA is the biggest open niche on the market. watch the King's Avatar animation on 9 anime or youtube. u cant even surrender ingame like so u are forced to play this snowbally clown fiesta that DOTA map that was never meant for esports anyway. i made quite few videos about this topic
@@Dualities I don't know what you're on about cause most of the things you said are either incorrect or seem to come from someone who hasn't been having fun with the MOBA genre for a while but refuses to let it go out of attachment to the nostalgia it brings. It's fine to grow out of stuff man, it's ok to not enjoy certain genres and games anymore. When it reaches that point the best thing you can do is follow Grubby's example and move on to the next thing before you sour any good memories you made.
... And also, none of the things you said justify people being rude to Grubby for trying new heroes and roles. What I expect from any human being is decency and respect, and I honestly still can't fathom getting so worked up at a streamer trying to learn your favorite hero. Because honestly when Grubby was trying out Hoodwink for the first time I was beyond *elated* to watch him get better at playing her. If anything I think I'm a bit upset I won't get to watch him learn any of the other heroes I enjoy but I still applaud him for knowing when to step away from something.
what is grubby to dota 2 community is what I am to smite community. i loved smite for more then 12 years. never been toxxic to no1. but lets not pretend we don't have some major game and community issues. i made many videos talking about this or state of moba games in general. also watch the kings avatar animation on 9 anime. best gaming animation out there@@coldspicy
Then allow to pass through that magnificent journey
This is the whole beauty of DOTA.
It's very fun 1v1 3v3 and 5v5.
If you are well versed in Warcraft you can be very resourceful when it comes to DOTA.
Some very creative strategies were being developed over the years.
Dagon on Nerubian Assassinn, Ion Shell on invisible heroes like Bounty Hunter, some heroes that were support being played like carries.
Anyone who has trained 1v1 knows many heroes have carry late game potential. Anyone who has played other custom maps knows the late game effects of critical, bash, evasion and how to stack them.
Many people see one pro game with certain role/item and if others do not play that meta, they just hate it.
I 100% claim that playing 5v5 with the people that are not like that is one of the most fun gaming experiences one can have.
And I have played all sorts of games and love a whole lot of different genres, but at the very very top, few games in certain cases exceed everything else.
He's like a gentleman from a more civilized age.
yeah he is out of touch and larping, a bit on the spectrum as well, no hard feelings it just is what it is
@@beridledodopidop4822 no. I meant to just point out the culture difference between the older rts community and the toxic highly competitive moba communities, while at the same time referencing a Starwars scene describing the old lightsaber as a superior weapon from an older era.
@@beridledodopidop4822dudes mad that RUclips man doesn't want to play a game. Depressing lol.
@@beridledodopidop4822bro I love grubby dearly but this shit was so hilarious hahahahaha
compared to dota scum he is lol
3k hours in Dota 2, quit for the same reasons back in 2016. Great game, horrible community.
this game is for old players that played dota 1 in past.its not made for new players.
grubby cant get views now .he got alot of views and subscribers and in his twitch and youtube only for his dota 2 content,now he left and says dota 2 is bad
i am not gonna watch him playing other games than dota 2,he has to say goodby to his views on youtuve and twitch
@@amiralia8237 You talk like a loser with zero social skills.
@@amiralia8237goodbye
@@amiralia8237 you know hes been playing pro at the warcraft 3 scene right? for 11 years. he didnt get all his community from dota 2...... and most liely lost views from playing dota 2 because the game is not for eveyone. you assume a lot of things from someone you havent watched at all. and this video is 5 months old, and hes been getting views since then so thats no issue and wont be giving up his channels. like he said in the video, his content is not beholden to dota 2. at all please go outside and touch some grass
@@amiralia8237 You sound salty ngl
Imagine mobas but people respect each other and are helpful and in a good mood
Imagine all the people. Laning, having fun
You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one@@GrubbyTalks
I hope someday you'll join us
And DotA will be fun...
league was like that in its beta. Was a lot of fun. People just playing for fun. Game got so sweaty.
mb in the afterlife, or with the Venusian :)
You worded this so well. I'm sorry about your bad experiences, it's heartbreaking.
Glad you also had a fantastic time as well though!
Nothing heartbreaking about it you just outed yourself. He explained everything. He's not in pain, he didn't express that he needed encouragement. How you heard that is beyond me and anyone who listened to what the man said. You wrote something nice though so there is that at least.
I felt that a lot of solo queueing in DOTA was just managing everyone's egos to make sure that no one cooked off unnecessarily and started feeding couriers or throwing. You're spot on your assessment with regard to why people are like that, they have played for so long and it has become their lives. They no longer even enjoy the game, but they feel they have no where else to go, so they stay on the game and lash out whenever there is any discomfort. I found that playing in low priority was much more fun because people were just playing for fun rather than for points and ego
You don't need to manage anyone just play the game
@@tuoljg Nope if you want to win there's a lot of babysitting needed.
Word for word but make it league of legends. I honestly didn't mind someone going unexpectedly afk or having a bad game, or even going on losing streaks. What exhausted me was having to handhold people that haven't developed healthy mechanisms to dealing with emotions or problems. My random jungler accidently giving your lane a kill should not warrant you running it down and feeding every lane, sprinkling slurs left and right.
This is so true. It's also why it's been so strange to see Valve kill the mini-game and arena scene. Those mini games are a GREAT way to play Dota but not really play Dota. Gives you the player-break you need while still enjoying the game client and heroes.
@@Gyokan7I am sorry, I am not the babysitter of morons and I don't have to endure maladapted personalities. I mute the idiot and don't give a flying crap about their idiotic behavior (feeding, whatever). Just assume it is a Mega creep programmed to raise the difficulty of your game, period.
I just decided today to uninstall Dota after playing for 11 years. So much of what you said resonated with me. I often recognise that after playing a few games, I am in such a bad mood after. Gaming is supposed to be a fun break from a long tiresome day at work for me.
So many of my games have become too try hard. I recently tried Muerta support because I saw it on the pro scene. I was so excited to try it. Even before the game started I got called names and reported. During the game I was yelled at, blamed for everything going wrong, and I just realised...im not having fun with this and i dont want to play with these people. Im very open to suggestions from my team to get better, but its rarely they even do that, they just say uninstall and go kys.
I even got toxic myself to "get back at other toxic people".
I wanna go back to games where i have fun and be involved in positive environments. Dota is not that for me anymore.
Great video grubby
Moba is like that only...play other games
See you tomorrow
@@9TF_SAIYAN any competitive game like that. I have actually had it happen way less often in dota than any other games Ive liked. But I also dont play ranked.
Dota was my main game for many years, I played it's earliest versions and was instantly hooked. Played customs, the clan tda era and onto the garena scene, then i joined league beta, heroes of newerth then moved on to dota 2 when it started.
I saw dotas transformation from a casual custom map to a competitive game with massive tournaments. The level of competition was insane, but at the casual level the increase of competitiveness added a different kind of fun for a few years.
But then the community seemed to turn on itself. Just like you said, many games were no longer an enjoyable experience. People didnt want to win, they needed to win. Constant name calling, blaming everyone instead of focusing on what they could do better. This obviously wasnt all players, but it was enough players that I was no longer having fun. I did the pre mute for a while but it just wasnt the same.
I decided to take a break and uninstall thinking i would get the desire to play again.
It was about 5 years until I decided to play dota again. Obviously I was no longer at the same skill level(i was good, but nowhere near pro level) . I played one game and was harassed by my team starting from my item choice in the load screen. They reported me told me, to never come back, and called me names for the entire 35 minute game. I thought to myself, i didnt have any fun or enjoyment. Why would i spend my free time doing this. That was probably 2018 i think? Ive never played dota since. I used to be one of the biggest fans, but that part of the community has completely ruined the game for me.
I always told people there should be surrender button, but toxic community doesn’t want it. They want to sit 40 min in lost game and blame each other
You know what you're absolutely right, I had the exact same journey as you except that every now and then I do play with my friends in a party of 5. We always flame each other in a joking way and have a good laugh but I got out of the toxicity that is online moba. The free time you gain from quitting dota is honestly a blessing, make good use of it
Omg. But yeah, relatable. The toxicity spreads all the way down to lower leagues, where I was.
@@kurrwaas a League of Legends player: trust me, surrender doesn't make anything better, it creates a whole new problem
@@shacuras8201Yes I've experienced this first hand, surrender option also have it's own problems or it raises more problems for example many people rage quit at some point in that 25-30min playing!
I remember when I found your channel through dota 2. Watching your climb from Herald to Immortal inspired me to try to do the same. Now that I have gotten to Legend I just want to say thank you for inspiring me to become a better player and also getting me back into rts games like wc3 and sc2. Keep up the good work and I wish you all the best.
I recently tried to teach my friend DotA 2 who was coming from League of Legends. I came out of a 6 year hibernation to play some games with him and absolutely forgot how much patience you need when queuing up without a full team (the last two years I played was only with my college team we were competing in JDL with). It took so much effort to defuse people flaming each other, and sometimes never worked. I ended up finishing our game session emotionally exhausted, and this is exactly why I stopped playing. Many times I was playing diplomacy simulator more than DotA
/mute
I am amazed it worked at all, forget 'sometimes'
I should not report you - Skywrath (still reports entire team tho)
Yep. Pretty much. Something similar had actually happened a few years back in cs for me too. Which is absolutely ridiculous. If you play too well, people think you are cheating and you get kicked, if you play too bad, you get kicked. If it's a premade you get kicked ( they also give you different task like scream in your mic like a chicken or you get kicked), if buy when everyone saves you get kicked... etc etc... and the best of all, if you get kicked too often like 4 times I think. You get banned... What a great game concept. Things like that absolutely made me not want to play online games for many years now, because with the community like that it felt like literal torture. Especially when they are mocking you for trying...
That is what competitive gaming is and sports, what do you think the difference is between the top players in anything...its not just skill or hard work its also mental strength...same in life,
Unfortunately I believe this is a universal phenomenon, teams are toxic on all games now, people are getting toxic everywhere even out of the games
This guy actually gets it.
Almost like the planet is dying, or people have become more entitled/violent since 2020.
Again, I blame the environments we have created.
I have noticed that avoiding F2P games, helps cut down on the toxicity a bit though.
@@istjimmyi4202 It's basically a world wide mouse utopia.
I take breaks from DoTA for 10 years.
I had a reverse situation, played Dota for around 10 years, competed and went to tournaments with different teams and it was a blast. However, after a while I had a break and had no team, so I started playing solo for some time. The difference in the experience you get in terms of fun and improvements is so huge that at some point it felt like a waste of time playing solo due to reasons you mentioned. So, I transitioned to Starcraft 2 and fighting games, as those don't have teammates and it felt amazing competing and improving in those.
That said, if you ever feel like returning to dota, I highly recommend playing with a full team for max enjoyment instead of random pubs.
This. I never understood DOTA or MOBA games in general putting more weight in grinding the game solo queue when you don't need to be Einstein to figure out that MOBAs are TEAM games and that's where the real game of DOTA is. Your interaction and synergies with your team, knowing your opponent team and finding ways to counter it, and actually being CARING and KIND for your teammates to keep team morale and prowess high. I wish the general community normalize ranked team play instead of the lunacy of solo queue. And I have always thought if you're gonna solo queue at that point why not just play fighting games or 1v1 RTS.
What games you play besides Starcraft2? Tekken 8 maybe?
@@kayosensei All of this is true. But limiting yourself (really hard) by playing with random teammates is actually helping you develop your personal skills. As opposed to playing with a party where they can cover for your shortcomings and preventing you learn from your mistakes.
I'm not saying one is better, just that it exists and having high rating (previously they were divided) in Solo Queue was a representation of your personal skills where Team Rating could be highly inaccurate.
Lets play sc2. What is your battlenet acct?
@@kayosensei There is an option to do just this, and it's not abnormal to play in a team with friends. I used to do this as well but I found out that it can be even a more stressful enviroment than solo queue and has a potential to even ruin friendships... there is an option to mute toxic people and people should really utilize it, rather than keep nagging back and forth which never brings any fruit in the end, but only more toxicity and misery. There's also an option in the options-menu to pre-mute everyone, so that you only see their pings and chat wheel, which is quite adequate to communicate in Dota (one guy even managed to get to Immortal rank like this). They can still see your chats and hear you btw.
As a person who quit LoL recently (and other MOBAs long ago), I feel absolutely the same.
And also as a person who played all those 3 MOBAs, I totally agree that voice chat experience is really cool, but could get toxic really quickly!
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Mad respect for you and for that decision, dude. I had very similar experience with dota2 and quit for exact same reason (although it was 10 years ago). And don't worry about moving on, I really appreciate your personality and openness, and will watch your content for as long as you will stay true to your values.
If you want to explore other competitive 1v1 games instead of more team games, then I would highly recommend fighting games if you have any interest in it. You have the right mindset about processing losses and learning from them after all the years that you've competed in 1v1 RTS. That kind of skill and mindset would carry over really well to learning fighting games as well (and also zero toxic teammates to ruin the experience for you ofc, it's just you and your single opponent).
Yeah, if ur not a pro and u dont play to have fun then why play at all. Familiarity is a good point. Like someone who goes to college and picks a major they think they would be good at based on familiarity instead of figuring out what they actually enjoy.
I agree with your sentiment.
However people find different things fun. For some they may seek more chill and relaxed and experimenting gameplay. For others they feed that competitive drive. These players are more likely to be volatile in their mood, so when they experience something that is unacceptable to them in the spirit of being competitive or they feel like they get robbed of something they perceive is theirs by rights, they start losing sight of the end goal: winning competitive games. Some get entrapped, feeling like they've sunk too much time into the game to let go - and indeed the familiarity hypothesis is likely also true for many - so they keep going and they take their previous negative experiences with them. The truly unfortunate thing is that players who are more accepting and chill, like Grubby, who can rub off on others to reflect on their behavior and correct themselves, these players usually find the competitive environment to be dissatisfactory and thus they leave. So you're mostly just stuck with players who are entrapped in the game and unable to break free from their bad patterns. I think this is why the MOBA environments, hell even Call of Duty, so maybe just all amateur competitive environments gets this spiral that ends in what is largely perceived as toxic communities.
Personally I gravitate towards watching streamers who have a positive outlook on the game and a more laid back attitude, instead of high-strung, high-energy people full of conflict and drama who I find taxing. And that's why I love watching Grubby.
People don't know how to have fun in getting smoked too. Just funny trying to 5 man one more time and trying to boss rush their support 😂
@@m.r.r.2636 your comment is similar to the nature of why i now play ff14 and not WoW anymore... was over a decade of WoW for me... but the community just became unbearable, so now ive been comfy and having a great time in ff14 the last few years
im not sad because its over
im happy because it happened
Hey that’s great healthy decision to make. I think the discovery level of you playing DoTA was great, but it’s kind of hard to ignore that chat and players in match are exhausting to deal with.
Always happy to see what’s next 🤙
I picked up Dota a little over a month ago coming from a decade of League. Your content has been so informative and enlightening not only for the game but the psychological aspect of competitive games in general.
I always looked down on Dota being in the League club, but I can see myself agree with your statements about the game itself, most definitely a 10/10 game. Peaking 2250mmr so far I have not yet reached the bracket where you see this kind of toxicity but fingers crossed that my league experience has hardened me enough to push through. 😂
I played dota WC3 and after Dota2 for many years than I stopped. I was quite good (around 5k mmr) back then. I restarted to play about when you started your Dota 2 career and after 2 games I uninstalled. People are so toxic. There is no place to new player or returning player in this community.
Yes go play league more friendly game actually. Dota sucks so badly
@@kurrwa lol clown comment
yes go play league, tetris also has a great community!
@@beridledodopidop4822 Or any FPS because I feel like even the griefers in CS and Valo actually tries to win. And if you really want to have fun, rocket league and Apex legends(without cheaters) are freaking awesome. But the most fun I've ever had in a multiplayer game was EU4. Sure it takes a few thousand hours until you're multiplayer ready but them 40 players lobbies are just incredible. The massive continental and world wars, coalitions, backstabbing and the memes are incredible. It felt like you were playing a competitive game like dota2/League and a for fun game like lethal company or among us at the same time.
Pretty similar to my experience as well. Now I'm old with a kid and real responsibilities .It's not worth it to waste my limited hours I have for gaming dealing with toxic children, despite the fact that I probably had more fun playing dota from 2004-2014 than any other game.
Dota was my favourite game when I was a teen. When I tried to go back to dota2 , I found the community so toxic and unwelcoming. if for any reason, someone tilted, they 'd intentionally feeding, toss you in the enemy base with tiny, or keep sending you back to base with Chen. the turning point was when I got automatically banned because I was reported by several people for taking mid and not carrying the game, despite winning my lane and having a good score.
When its get to the point that you're the best player in your team, and people team up to make you banned by the report system because you didn't carry them... Its time to leave. The report system was a massive failure in this game, and the community is the most toxic I have ever seen. too bad because the game is easily the most technical and enjoyable moba.
Could not agree more. I've basically stopped playing Dota for the last 3 years. Most summer breaks, I give it another attempt to try and recapture the joy of playing the game in the early days.
Every time I'm quickly reminded of the same qualities in other people that you're speaking of - and I can't stand it.
I'm very competitive and want to win, but I also really enjoy experimenting with off-meta heroes and trying to discover unconventional strategies. I'm always amazed with how closed-minded the players around me are. Often if we're losing, I'm blamed for "griefing" because I didn't pick one of the same 5 support heroes that I'd see every game.
Even crazier, when I try playing unranked instead, the people there have the same attitude, like the match they're playing is one of the most important moments of their life and ALL of the 9 other players are actively working to sabotage it. It sucks the life out of a game that should be amazing.
Thank you for speaking about this issue - I hope future competitive team games will take these lessons and foster better communities.
I also quit about 3 years ago. While the game itself is amazing, I don't really miss it. I play single player games now mostly, and tbh Dota 2 is one of the most dangerous drugs/addictions to ever exist. It's bad for you in the long term, don't waste your life on it.
If you are playing ranked games that means you wanna grind and this indicates that you should pick heroes that would give you the highest win prob, no wonder others are calling you a griefer. If you play only for fun just play unranked to "test" new heroes and strategies. I don't see any advantage in playing the new hero in a ranked match. It's basically intentionally lowering your skill by 500-1000 MMR and your team will pay the price.
I also wanna win, but I don't get mad if somebody is just learning the game and is not good because of it.
What passes me off is people that do know how to play and doing dumb stuff that could throw the game like instead of hitting the throne, running into the fountain to bm then dying.
@@blahblahgdp you know you just said two oposite things, in one hand you dont mind people that just learing the game but on the other you hate people who does random shit...you mean new players? XD
Exactly the reason I stopped playing Heroes of the Storm. It was such a great game once. Back in 2015 to, let’s say, 2019, the community was great, it was a delight to play. So many great memories. Nowadays, only people flaming and griefing. One moment someone on your team deems you did a mistake is enough for them to screw the game for the whole team. And just like you I recognized: I don’t have to do this. I don’t have to play this. There are so many awesome games out there, let’s invest my time in these.
Cheers to you Grubby! I respect you a lot man. Ever since I started watching you, I've always found you as a great positive person who just loved the game and learned it really damn fast. I have seen your streams where people, both in game and in chat were really toxic to you but you still handled them pretty well. I can understand it can get mentally draining to deal with these kinds of people on a daily basis.
I used to grind the game as well until I faced the same fate as you and ranked up and found many toxic players who just said the most gruesome shit to me even when sometimes it wasn't my fault. There was no fun playing anymore and it just ruined my mental health, and I can only imagine how much worse it could have been for you as you even had to deal with a toxic chat constantly backseating you.
The positive side of Dota will always remember you as a Legend Grubby and I hope you know that we will always support you !
Stopped years ago because of toxic community. It's not worth the time or consternation.
As a long time league player, I'll never forget when I tried DOTA 2 for the first time and got flamed for dying vs AI by my teammates... who were also playing vs AI.
I'm used to league toxicity but this was a really strange experience to me.
That's crazy. imagine being toxic in PvE
World of Warcraft has entered the chat.
I had a similar experience many years ago. I had been a Halo player and was used to the comradery of those pvp environments. Sure, there was some trash talk, but it wasn't par for the course for people to tell you uninstall and kill yourself and so on.
People were so toxic that I remember swearing off the genre. I didn't play a MOBA and enjoy it or understand the merit of the genre until 2020 or maybe some years after.
I remember to this day ranting to someone about how it was incomprehensible to me that a community of such a complicated game would actively be so hostile to new players. It seemed completely insane to me. That's just MOBAs though, I don't see it ever changing. Ironically, the most fun people to be around and interact with will always be the memers and off-meta one tricks. People like Singed players. They're the only group in MOBAs that play the game a lot and still understand it's a game, not a job, and they generally don't have insane egos.
Edit: I found the match. It was a Co-op bot match where I played Faceless Void and was flamed by my teammates until I Abandoned the game. I remember picking him because he looked cool and I had no idea who to play and was running out of time.
Just mute toxic and move on, and don't think about it too much (there is even an ioption for this in the options-menu!). You don't even absolutely NEED to communicate to get to Immortal (one guy proved this right in the past) so you could even pre-mute everyone! Pings and chat wheel are quite adequate to communicate with your team. In fact I think it might be a good idea to remove the communication (chat and voice) in Dota 2 from pubs, or at least from strict solo queue!
Imagine screaming Go back to league as one of the worst insults 😂. Dota is a cult and I love it. Just mute toxic players ❤
Now I'm 36, that's why I mostly don't play ranked anymore at any game really. I was the UK number one when it was played all the way back on GameSpy. I think I was around 300 overall at red alert 2, I think I was the only soviet player in the top 400-500 as Yuri was so busted.
But the more I worked the more I dipped off. I couldn't get higher than platinum in smite. Or past 13k MMR in hearthstone battlegrounds.
It doesn't really bother me though. I know only playing 2 times a week is going to get results like that.
I mute all the randoms, and just duo queue games with brother. If the rest of the gamers are just NPCs nowadays I find it more fun that way.
I find myself enjoying HotS so much more than other mobas simply because no one tells me I'm a horrible player for my mistakes. And if they do they're not as unhinged as some people in LoL
Actually the opposite for me, maybe now with a smaller community in hots there's less toxicity but when I was playing hots like 3 years ago I've had so many games where ppl are flaming the hell out of each other (maybe because it's way more team dependent than league)
Hots community is very nice plus Hots is also very short so the pain of a bad teammatte half or 1/4 times the length of other mobas.
thats the tricky part. HotS is a team effort and you can feel powerless. Meanwhile in Dota or League you do have power to do things by yourself, but any team effort against you can ruin you... and it does not matter if that team effort is in enemy team... or your own.
@@fartloudYT in HotS I know to just do my part. I main tanks and all I have to do is provide the team with information, protection, engage and soaking here and there. I don't have to carry it all on my own unless I'm in lower ranks. If I lose, it's because the MMR difference is too big between the teams (or I got an afk / disconnected player).
But in lower ranks I can confidently carry the game on my own anyway, the team is a non-factor. I don't know anyone from diamond and above who climbed from silver with less than 70% winrate. I wonder where that notion of "it's harder to carry" even came from when I can play carry tanks or carry bruisers and win easily.
Wait your chat isn't muted? Lol
Honestly When Watching this is what I feel about MOBA’s in general both Mobile and PC but regardless I do love MOBAs is to me people do not realized their styrofoam behavior is the cause of their to be falling spectacularly. The reason I came is to see your side of the story since somebody made a video about it although in a very Tryhard centric Perspective it’s called the Downfall of MOBA’s which I disagree what he has to say about it.
I was actually a tryhard myself given people I watch share that mindset and (you can see it when I play CODM) but their is one time I came across named Tmal in RUclips completely changed my mindset in gaming and shows how completely messed up these tryhards/overly competitive/Esports minded people really are. Just like you said in your video although I realized more earlier than now that I’am more of a Casual-Competitive person but I do not care of losing I just want to have fun and even close matches.
@3:30 this is it! Absolutely on point. Players who became 'vengeful spirits', who can't process loss. Dota2 (but also some other games) can be an incredible toxic swamp, and it's good to leave.
this is why I play with my brother. he is my forever bubby, we always queue with each other, and even if we're losing we often find a way to still have fun. There is a certain madness to solo queue, and assholes always pop up. It's really hard to push through, but comrades and friends make dota a much more chill time. I hope the best for you grubby, hope you try the new patch at some point!
I understand you truly. This happened on my journey a lot of times, I usually have to take some time to reset and this could consist in weeks or even months without playing.
And whenever I return, I fall in love with Dota 2 again. But the thrill only last a limited amount of time.
And I've dedicated my adulthood to Dota 2 (playing it since its release, currently 7.2k MMR and done a couple of casts including TI for the Brazilian community).
Since I tried to make this my passion/work, sometimes I feel stuck to the game. But you know, that's our sin for loving good games a lot.
Take your time, grubby!! we'll be waiting. This is called "saudade" in portuguese and you might miss dota at some point
I get you 100% Mr Grubs. This is how i feel the last 5 years. So I have been playing Dota on and off like a bad relationship. Would be nice to see you on the South-African server. Most of the time friendly people are there. Would suck to loose you as well. So many good people are being bullied out of the game. It is not fair. I wish Gaben could resolve this issue with the POWER of AI.
Being stuck in a losing match for a really long time is poison for player behavior. And seeing your teammate make a mistake gives you flashbacks to the times you were stuck in your base for 40 minutes because you fell behind early on.
Games dragging on for that miniscule chance for a comeback is hype for e-sports, but matches that resolve faster are much better for the vast majority of games.
That's the main issue with playing dota for me is, I could play dota for 3 games... or I could invest nearly 2 hours into a hobby. Every few dota games I would have the chance to learn a song on piano or complete a piece of art, pour significant time into learning a subject or history.
I can handle having bad games, that's a part of team games, you have the highs of a fun team and making friends and the lows of toxicity. But being stuck for 30 minutes at the least when you know that it's over is so painful.
I wish they had a resign vote, where if let's say 4 of 5 people agree your team surrenders the game.
@@hillboy1611 That was a feature I missed about Heroes of Newerth that dota didnt have. I understood the concept of not having a concede vote but playing games with people I hated for an extra 20-30 minutes tilted me beyond anything else.
Game length is a huge issue I quit. It's not fun to play a great game only to lose an hour in because of one mistake
@@hillboy1611This sounds good in theory. But, in practice the toxicity it brings is beyond anything you can imagine. Hon wasn't really toxic and this feature when introduced just made it insufferable. It almost never works as intended (people agree game is over , vote and gg). It mostly goes like this: some people want to forfeit the match after the first couple of minutes (in HoN you cound't even initiate the vote before 10 or 15 mins, and they would go "guys afk now, we vote in 3 mins this is over") if peopel disagree...toxicity on steroids begins, griefing, feeding on purpose and flame wars until everybody submits. It doesn't matter if 2 people disagree or 3... even one griefer ruins the game and can make everybody submit just by saying it he is going to grief...
What I hate about it is people having "Dota is life" as their mantra to the point they make new accounts to pick on literal newbies in the game. It's way too toxic now. I do miss it and I still do play it at times but I always just get reminded of why I stopped in the first place. What you said is a very good illustration of the Dota 2 community at the moment.
There is an interview from 2019 just before TI9 where N0tail was asked to give a message to fans and DOTA players, his words resonate with me to this day whenever I feel bad and stressed.
He said: "Just remember why you sat down to play for the first time and why you keep sitting down to play. I mean maybe you forget along the way, I have forgotten along the way but it's a game that I truly love and I'm sure that I'm not the only one, there's so many players.
Just the good parts again, focus on the positivity, enjoy the games enjoy your teammates.
Don't queue for the next game if you're in a bad mood and you know it's going to be a bad game. Q if you're looking for the fun, if you're looking for something good, if you're looking for that nice game or nice experience and that DOESN'T MEAN WINNING, some of the best games are still spent losing and yeah some people get caught up in that as well.
Play for fun, have fun, enjoy it."
He's right, but also, of course, n0tail is also not playing right now. He could lpay right now and remember why he sat down to play for the first time. But there's an end for everyone and that's natural. Or maybe, an extended break
On point. Thank you for sharing Grubby
I quit dota 2 a year ago and started to explore and play singleplayer games. Best choice so far. I still watch the esports scene and some streamers tho.
this, I quit league, now I have enjoyed and played so many great single player games. Still watch worlds every year.
I just played Axe, I have 515 games with Axe and 58% winrate.
I had to lane against MK + Dazzle which are both Lane Counters to Axe.
At the start of the game I said I cant lane there and I have to dodge lane and that I would jungle.
All agreed but when things got hard they started flaming me for not being able to help.
We won the game very easy in the end, i had to mute everybody after 10 minutes and whole team reported me for griefing and I got low prio instantly after the game.
My stats were 8/8/28 second most dmg in team, and by far most damage tanked. I also bought crimson and pipe to help my team mates survive.
I could also go AFK when they all told me they reported me etc but i didnt because when I win its good for me and i dont have to see those ppl again.
Last year I did recallibration and won 8/10 games, got +870 MMR and got 2 times reported for griefing during the games, had 2x low priority and had 6k behaviour score.
So algorythm gives me +870MMR but you toxic ppl throwing reports because I dont play like you want me to play send me to hell.
Dota always had toxic ppl but somehow it got worse and I think it's because of this infinite report bullshit. When you had 6 reports and u had to carefully choose if it's actually worth to report someone, everything was better. Now the system is actually making to threaten other players because you can report them anytime for anything.
Thats blizzard for you. It's one of the reasons i stopped playing overwatch. Any sort of criticism like asking a teammate to "b", or "what are you doing?" and you can be reported. Blizz doesnt investigate and you are eventually silenced and banned for "abusive language." I get what grubby is saying but it works both ways. The most toxic people to me are the ones that abuse and report everyone for every little thing.
Don't be those 1 or 2 heroes only pickers.
@@ZackChannel Im not only 1 or 2 hero picker. All my top heroes have almost 60% winrate in 100 games minimum.
That's the mistake, who buys pipe and crimson?
@@KradDrows literally 2 of the most broken items in the game and u asking who buys it?
Voyboy staircase video vibe all over again. That's the reason I stopped playing league actively and now play other games. It's exhausting.
don't compare soyboy with grubby pleaseeeee
@@confleyz5315 dw bby , he's not comparing, just saying that the video has the vibe (ig you've watched it)
Currently playing this while playing with toxic peruvians insulting me in Spanish, Peak dota experience
Fair enough! I have enjoyed watching your DOTA journey, but I also look forward to you exploring other games in the future!
I'm a Brazilian gamer and I have 9k hours on Dota 2, I got to Immortal rank 2000 mostly playing (believe it or not) off meta... I liked to pick Silencer mid, Windranger offlane, Visage offlane and weird stuff like that, but I had results, otherwise I wouldn't have reached this rank... But when I reached Immortal rank it was simply impossible to have a good game, people on my team reported me before the game started just because of my pick and they refused to play correctly because they thought I was trolling the game, and this was happening almost EVERY game... It came to a point that I couldn't find games anymore because I was reported by most Immortals, I needed to queue for like 30 min to find a game... I had to unnistal the game and move on... It really is an amazing game but the community is too imature and toxic, I rather have a good time playing something else... such a shame.
I had way less succes but got my fair share of hate for picking weird stuffs and having surprising inventories, but I like having fun trying things I never see, I still won over half of my 8k games and i am at peace with this humble achievement! :)
But in sea server everything works as long as you win.
I love Dota. Best game I've ever played. But I always set a strict rule for myself: As soon as I lose a game, I log off. I find that it's very easy to ignore flame/toxicity on my first match of the day, or if I'm already on a win-streak. But if I just came out of a losing game, I'm a bit tilted, and my team starts flaming at 10 minutes, I'm much more likely to give up myself or even be toxic. This has been very helpful and has actually helped me gain MMR much faster since I only play when I'm in a strong mental state.
what is your mmr?
Thats a great method
@@agapon2023divine. Been playing for 1 year
Just mute toxic and move on, and don't think about it too much (there is even an ioption for this in the options-menu!). You don't even absolutely NEED to communicate to get to Immortal (one guy proved this right in the past) so you could even pre-mute everyone! Pings and chat wheel are quite adequate to communicate with your team. In fact I think it might be a good idea to remove the communication (chat and voice) in Dota 2 from pubs, or at least from strict solo queue!
it's crazy that grubby has the same experiences in higher leagues. I've been playing dota vor like 15+ years on and off now. Lately I started playing again, got crusader und then i suddenly got sucked down to herald. I lost like 1k mmr. I'm mostly the best farmer, i have the most kills and I try to push like crazy. Meanwhile my Mates give up after the enemies get their first killing spree. I don't get their mindset. Why are they even playing?
I really like the mechanics, visuals and the concept of dota, but i get serious depression from this.
I can perfectly relate. In Dota there's such a wonderful depth; details and big picture both engage and matter. It just tickles everything I want from a competitive teamgame.
And then there's the playerbase.
Some of my best matches were, and probably still will be, losses. I wish more people could also take it that way, to enjoy the process and not fixate on the results. But it is easy to lose it even if one has it in the beginning.
I enjoyed watching your journey with dota, you were a breath of outdoors air in this scene. Will probably continue watching your streams! I just want you to know that there indeed are other people who would (or atleast try to) just love to enjoy the pure learning and trying and experimenting without the layer of toxicity. Maybe some day the scene is mature enough to do it. All the best to you!
It's really important for people to see folks like Grubby who are emotionally evolved learning and enjoying the game, and being the opposite of toxic.
I'm grateful for the time you've spent playing DOTA 2 for us, and I've watched every one of your DOTA 2 videos. I hope you'll come back soon!
Thanks for being what you want to see - modeling good behavior is so critical ❤
i played the game hardcore for many many years, and then took a much needed almost 5 year-long break in 2018 when i realized i had stopped enjoying it. when i made the decision to come back, i felt like i was better able to enjoy it after experiencing other gaming communities in the time i was away
i'm an immortal bracket player so i know first hand how rough this community can be, and while i'm sorry to see you go (been following since before you started dota, and will of course continue after you stop playing), i totally empathize and support the decision. it does feel like this game has permanently rewired some people's brains. they're unable to interact normally with others on a basic level when they're playing the game, and it was really disappointing (though not surprising) to see how little this had changed while i was away. i always, always recommend people take breaks from dota 2 in particular because of how much it (and other mobas) can snare you in this cycle of frustration and desire to improve. if it's not fun, switching to something else is always a good option. happy to see what you play next
I have played dota for a very long time, and it was my main game for many years.
I absolutely love the game and decided that I wanted to get the highest rank possible so that I don't have to deal with this horrendous experience of playing in low rank not only for the gameplay, but even more about player attitude.
I've often wished I was a popular figure in the community so that I can have a voice and call out to everyone to just be a little 'better@ in terms of attitude, flaming, making assumptions that's mostly untrue or only partially true. The scene n low rank is so incredibly toxic and if you are not Buddha, IT WILL get to you and then it's a slippery road and this is how everyone just starts to assume the worst of each other as soon as something is said. It's incredibly sad.
I unfortunately couldn't agree more with what you said here. Now I only play turbo with my mates, which actually sucks for me because I want to be the best I can be, and turbo isn't the greatest container for that for many reasons.
I love you Grubster and wish you all the best with whatever you do, and hopefully one day we could have you back with maybe a stack of 4 other players ( that idea would be great for you I think). Much Love from South Africa brother
I love this videos lol, feels like hearing a friend chit chatting about life
lol, that’s how it has been in arena/solo shuffle WoW Dragon flight, if you and your team lost people just ass holes and not happy, I have thick skin, I am never offended but there just isn’t fun in it , then I quit Dragon flight and started playing HC classic WoW, then to SoD WOW, now I am back to StarCraft and Wc3 my true love! I have been thinking of playing DOTA 2 cus I remember the old days of it back in wc3 2002 or so
Literally got back into gaming 2 years ago after being away from gaming for over a decade, and the spirit of competing has been lost in the community to a large % but I am having blast getting back in Wc3 ladder! Thanks grubby
You’re awesome man! I enjoy watching your videos everyday
Honestly Grubby I peaced out during your DotA 2 phase. It's just not the game for me. But I'm so excited to see you going back to WC3 and variety streams. I love the Dune content and can't wait to see more! Would love to see you try Age 4 again, now that it's in a much better place, or just whatever you're passionate about! I guess what I'm saying is, I like this move, and I'm excited to see where you go from here.
Cheers Tim
When you said the music is *okay,* I died inside.
try telling them
"MMR is just a NUMBER"
Thank you Grubby. I played WC3 since its inception. You were one of my biggest inspirations since WCG 04. I used to download your replays from the WCG site. But after a few years, Dota became huge and I got hooked on it. Years down the road when you started streaming, I wished you played Dota 2. I even commented on one of your old replays on RUclips from WCG that if Grubby played Dota 2 he would be a grandmaster. I was so happy when that day finally came, But I am even more Happy (Not your Archnemesis in WC3) after listening to you today.
I realized long ago that I was stuck in a loop in Dota 2. Today, after listening to you I finally accepted it. Thank you Grubby for giving me a beautifully articulated reminder to stop wasting time on a neverending game and play hundreds of amazing games that are coming out now. I think I am finally ready to sell all my items and remove Dota 2 from my account for good.
Albert Einstein said it the best - "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." There are a lot of data players who feel the same way that you do, who are just stuck in a loop. I sincerely hope that this video goes viral in the Dota 2 Community and helps everyone Break free from the loop, the addiction, and the vicious trap of Dota 2.
I've never played or heard of a MOBA that isn't viciously toxic (especially as you rank up). There's too much at stake for players (rating) and the game archetype encourages min-maxing metagaming since there are 5 potential points of failure or weakness to ruin what is at stake. Fundamental game design flaw with the genre, IMO 🤷♂
Humans want to win when there is something at stake, and when you do something that is counter to that wish, they get angry at you.
Its just how MOBA's work. I think grubby just doesn't like dota2 enough that he is willing to put up with it.
You have to like dota2 to a special degree to put up with this shit.
@MechShark well regardless of what is at stake there is a never a point where it is okay to air out your frustrations on other people. It's fun sometimes yes but does not make it okay. If you are really actually trying to win you would guide the person who is performing bad. Give them pointers and tell them where to be or reassure them that it's okay just play safe and don't die. But no one is interested in that kind of growth, they just want to use dota 2 VC or Chat as a therapeutic tool to shit on someone. The people that do that are the ones stuck on the same rank forever. BSJ has proven that with a better attitude you do gain MMR he used to be insufferable
i guess you could say that for most competitive team games that have updates...
@@mugnuz I don't disagree.
@@MechShark was trying to write more thoughts about matchmaking, data analytics and some other (gaming society things)... but somewhat many things are just reemerging patterns...:D
I quit MOBA games for the exact reasons you mentioned. You can't be a casual player if you're playing a MOBA.
I quit dota2 because:
1. toxic community who ruin games constantly, crying and not trying at all no matter of the role
2. bad skill of players. what do you think of pikcing warlock offlane 3rd? Or a support who just stands afk behind you, never buying wards and harrasing enemies. Literally afk behind you.
3. valve 50% forced winrate which means when vavle want you to lose they will give you bad teammates like that warlock. Super unfair system.
u were cooking until u said forced 50/50 lol. only people that don't understand how mmr systems work in competitive games say that shit. no shit most players balance around 50%. they reach their peak and can no longer climb. the mmr system is working as intended in that sense. u can disprove that by buying a herald acc and going 80% wr until u get back to your original rank. reality is harsh I know but trust me there is no magical (and somehow omnipotent) system working against you to give u griefers to force u at 50% xd. U just peaked in your mmr dawg
@@jaded-harperNo bro you are wrong it's 100% true that the valve decides what bracket you should play in. I played dota 1 and started to play dota 2 from 2013. Matchmaking is definitely designed to make you feel you can play in high rank sometimes but it only makes you addicted. 50% winrate for 99% of the community.
The pendulum has swung in favor of trolls and toxic bandwagoning through the new "Overwatch" system. People behave very toxic, calling names, flaming, follow you around the map etc (often their KDA is 0-10-3), and they will report you because you missed one spell. They will report you for correct judgments or misjudgments not actual griefing. It might just be me, but i find the most rational, just, and moral decision to make in this environment is to refuse to play the match. I know...people will say I'm part of the problem, but I truly believe this is the only natural consequence for people who flame, attack, and intentionally grief. Playing Dota and having fun is optional, making other players WANT to play with you is up to you. No toxic player can ever force me to play the game, no report scares me enough to make me want to play with you. I don't mind going next. I rarely throw a game and if people encourage me to play, I always stay. Valve has taken the responsibility through overwatch when the power is really in the COMMUNITY. If every player responded positively to encouragement even when the game is hard, and refused to play for teams that flame and attack Dota would correct itself.
Ty grubby, so true in your words. Hopefully you can come back later. I'll know you for Dota 2 and now I'm a Big fan of All your content. GG
3000 matches in 1.5 years is way too much.
Yeah I haven't reached that many games and I've been playing for 5+ years
3000 matches and your still archon haha😂😂😂 thats way too much
Honestly i played the game and undestand it since it launches but yeah i agree i love watching someone going through the learning and enjoying it ,i know a lot of guys think theyre just better and not enjoy the game anymore but honestly watching you play is a real pleasure and probably helping for a lot of newcomers or guys being stuck and its just a pleasure youre kind and enjoyable person to watch i really hope youre still playin dota 2 sometimes. Cause communities need personnality with youre exposure like you whatever the bad and toxic people i think the more the game is hard the more toxic guy who thinks theyre better you got ,but theyre really good people too in here wo are kind to share and learn and give their knowledge. (sorrry im not a master in english) but i was really happy to saw you come into this game since me and my friends were fan of you since war3 even tho one my friends played you a couple of times in war3 and told me if we could play one game together in dota2 could be awesome telle me if ur in to make him happy :D. much love and respect grubby
He was one of the best french war3 players fan of you played the better ,was a dream to play you,he played toad and the top fr and some eu etc a lot of times, beat intox at 5 am in (friends lan) completely drunk with me ,invented the tower rush so hes now a daddy but still play really good in dota2 i really want him to play with you to surprise him :D really could be awesome.when i saw start playing dota 2 i told him ur playing dota2 he was so happy and was amazed by ur mentality he thinks thats why you're good and i thinks he deserve to play with one of his heroes one day hes a good dad never been bad or toxic and just still love play games hope you can play a game with him if ur interested playin with him hes immortal too playin meepo and still really good xD honestly i or we would love to welcome you to play some game with him could be amazing surprise really. + its his birthday soon and i dont know what to give him. so if u have time time for humanity and share passion im on it 10000 % :D (hope u read me)
Nothing will beat the classic dota
Dota is great. The problem is more than half the community has no idea how to play. I mean that not just when it comes to the complicated actions like pulling, stacking etc but we are talking basics. They walk out on 10% hp and feed under their own tower when you were buying them a salve. They dive tier twos only to feed.
No other online game is plagued with so many people who have no idea how to do the basics and refuse to listen to anyone or learn from anyone.
You are right. We all start somewhere. That doesn’t mean you get to waste other peoples time. We have one life and why should we have to be forced to waste 20/30 minutes with you if you cannot be bothered to put in the effort to learn? If you aren’t going to respect everyone’s time in the game then why exactly should they respect you?
People have become soft and can’t take criticism on their play, at all. You get instant abuse, report and muted just for saying “could you wait for me to heal you? Could you not dive?”.
I only mute people being outright abusive and insulting, I don’t mute people just for calling me out, especially if they are right and that’s what is lost in dota. Self awareness. No one admits when it is their fault anymore. It’s why there are so many low level players. No self criticism and if you can’t even criticise yourself, you are gonna cry like a baby if someone else criticises you. 🤷🏼♂️😂
Maybe if valve actually punished people for using secondary accounts, as it’s a reportable offence, then the community wouldn’t have so many griefers. 🤷🏼♂️ I’ve reported hundreds, if not thousands of accounts like that over the years. One game, level 0, no picture, stupid name and many years on the account. It’s so obvious, yet nothing is ever done about it.
The community is awful because valve is greedy.
This means you'll play League again? :D
10000 hours on Dota2 and still it's the greatest game ever invented...Form a squad of 5 and stop Complaining...Enjoy your squad play...Don't play solo...My advise 😅 People are so lonely and angry in Dota 2 community...This guy has been paid by League of Legends😂
As a dedicated fan of Grubby's Dota 2 streams, there's something I want to bring up. Sometimes, Grubby picks heroes he's not familiar with in ranked matches, even when viewers suggest trying unranked mode. Then, when he struggles with these heroes, he insists it's a game and he has a right to play any hero he chooses and says any possible reports are illegitimate.
But here's the thing: many of us don't have the luxury of playing tons of games every day. We try hard to climb ranks in the limited time we get. So, when a teammate picks a hero they don't know and messes up the only match I get to play for the day, it's frustrating. I think it's fair to report them for ruining the experience.
Personally, if I want to try out a new hero, I stick to unranked matches. Despite this issue, I'm still a loyal fan. Whenever Grubby plays Dota, his stream is my top priority.
it is valves fault, they are the ones who are toxic
I think you're missing the point. If you're constantly learning from your mistakes and getting better, losing a game here and there due to a bad teammate isn't going to materially impact your MMR in the long run. People get so focused on individual games instead of the larger journey of keeping an open mind and improving. Also, I've noticed DOTA players often pile onto the person who's doing bad, cementing the loss instead of thinking how they can still win the game or keeping a positive environment.
I don't really agree with the way he's handling the problem, that's his decision; however, the problem does definitely exist. It's crazy to be me that in certain ranks you're "griefing" if you pick an off meta hero until someone in professional picks that same hero and proves it's viable. The community is super close minded and toxic. The above is a justification of that behavior instead of acknowledging it.
Lastly, playing unranked can be a poor way to practice heroes. Sometimes people are playing unranked due to large skill disparities in their party rank. This can lead to an immortal vs archon lane, which isn't a viable way to practice.
@@wtryo it is valves fault, they are the ones who are toxic
@@wtryo so playing unranked can be a poor way to practice heroes so you rather pick it on ranked and ruin the game for me but I should not flame you because one loss here and there will not affect my MMR in the long run? Having an off game is one thing but picking a hero you do not know how to play on ranked is a grief and you deserve a report for it. That is my humble opinion.
@@Prokophh It's rarely one person's fault that a game is lost. Dota players have a tendency to pile on to whoever is perceived to be playing bad. I suspect it's a defense mechanism to prevent any examination of their own play.
The reality is you always have the ability to play better. Change your focus and you'll tilt your teammates less while becoming a better player yourself.
If I can smurf and win nearly 100% of my games, maybe that person trying a new hero never was the big problem? If yatoro played in my games, he'd have near 100% WR. So, why focus on the guy playing a new hero or the person simply having a bad game instead of improving yourself?
You are spot on Grubby, I empathize completely with everything you said about the experience of the game. Thanks for the thoughts, appreciate you
I'm glad I stopped playing a while ago. Came back a few times in the past, but this is the longest I haven't played it so I'm confident that this is THE end.
All the best to you. You made a good decision quitting this toxic mess of a game! 👍
0:55 DOTA is not for having fun. Dont play ranked if you want to have "fun"
Then what’s the point of rank if your not having a good time. Rank should be serious but not belittling, know the difference.
@@iCrazy414 rank is for people that hate themselves and want to suffer
I started dota recently and even in casual matches people flame all game and call each other the most heinous things, it's not a ranked thing...
4:40 i think thats normal. Youre basically being constantly emotionally attacked.
Its feeling like your stuck forever that leads to a dead end, and a lot of people may feel like theyre not worthy of better if abused long enough.
Im smelling weakness
This is the most truthful video ever created on the internet. Long time hon/league/dota/dota 2 player since 2007. I feel the exact same way, dota 2 is the greatest mobs ever, but the people you play with make it not worth playing. Many don’t deserve to win, let alone play a ranked game mode.
So basically he rage quit like the average daily redditors cause he got bullied online. so much for the PMA god everybody made him out to be
actual brain-dead comment,I can't even
Thank you for sharing your very well-articulated reasoning for stepping away. I discovered you on the Twitch Dota 2 game page and always enjoyed watching your streams. Your positive attitude and growth mindset is inspiring and contagious. I hope to tune in to another Dota stream of yours sometime again, but wish you the very best no matter what the future brings!
There is a lot of wisdom in your reflection in and out of Dota. It's no wonder how far you got in your MMR journey. It takes genuine care to post this message and is an important one to share. I stand with this message!
Ive known who you were grubby since i saw you compete in SC2 wings of liberty. I was super happy you started bringing back WC3 hype so long ago, but I had always wondered why you never played dota since you were a hots guy and a WC3 guy. I even asked you once on your stream, if you would ever play dota and you replied something like Ive never played dota before or you never considered it. So I was super happy when, years later, you decided to finally pick it up and take that journey.
Dota 2 is easily one of the most complex games ever made, and also one of the most hyper competitive at almost every level of skill. So it doesnt shock me that the community tends to be as toxic as it is at times, dota 2 and Overwatch for me are the two most toxic communities in any game ive ever seen I think. regardless of that, Im glad you enjoyed the game itself and can appreciate it and had fun playing it, it truly is a masterpiece when it stands on its own, and like all games we enjoy at some point we probably have to put them down, even if its for a little while (or a long while). But its all about the journey in the end. so happy you gave it a chance and was able to enjoy it.
Guys, Grubby is being too diplomatic. Let me translate his speech to a more manageable, digestible and comprehensible form:
*He got to a level in the game where he gets matched with TOO MANY people that have bought / boosted ассounts...*
At that point in your ladder-climbing career, *even JUST ONE non-legit / faulty teammate (i.e. fake MMR)* means almost certain loss.
*MY STORY is similar to his as well:*
*BUT FIRST let me clarify that* eventhough 7.00 started off promising at first, I totally lost the plot by version 7.08 or so. Believe me, I'd been playing Dota since 2004...
... and yet, at about 7.09 or so, the game had started to become unrecognizable to me, even though I was able to follow along closely and adapt to each PREVIOUS incarnation of it.
The changed it TOO MUCH, *TOO QUICK* , and acquired the principle of *"More is better!"* at a point in time where the game had *MORE THAN SUFFICIENT CONTENT* ...
...and the only thing left to do was simply *FINE-BALANCE* it and keep introducing QoL changes *AND* impose stricter control on the userbase via reports / бапs, etc...
*==========*
*NOW...*
In the period from 2015 to 2016 I climbed up from 3.2k MMR to 4.4k MMR. Keep in mind that this was a time period in the game *where the **_ABSOLUTE MAX_** MMR was ~6000 or so.*
And what do you think happened then ?? I kept getting matched with teammates who were *SO BAD* at the game that they didn't just ruin the experience...*...they were SABOTAGING it.*
Bought accounts. Boosted accounts. *INTENTIONAL SABOTAGE.* _ALL THIS_ Equals = Equals totally ruined experience.
Occasionally I'd manage to climb up to 4.8k mmr, only to clamber back down to 4.4k again VERY QUICKLY, due to the EXTREMELY POOR QUALITY of teammates, I'd get.
---
*now, I know you might say: "Maybe you just weren't that good to begin with and got all the way to where you were thanks to luck... ?? Maybe YOU were the problem in the higher-mmr games?"*
_NOPE._ And I'll prove it to you: In parallel with all of this I was playing pre-made 2-team with a guy who was in the 5.2-5.4k range. ... And guess what ?? ---
--- My enjoyment of the game was SIGNIFICANTLY higher and I was able to achieve team-MMR of 5.0 or so -- which is higher than my Solo MMR.
Could it have all been a matter of me simply being carried by stronger players? Absolutely not, because I never got reported, so I know I was doing an adequate job along the rest of my team.
*PLUS,* I never restricted myself to support-only or offlane-only roles, and sometimes played carry too. :P
---
----
*VERDICT: Dota 2 was ruined by too much ambition, an unclear developmental-design direction, **_AND_** complete lack of control over the userbase.*
*... **_AND_** an insurmountable solo MMR-hell at about 4.4k MMR or so...*
.
valve is just idiot
Grubby, I have been following you since the early Warcraft days and I played tons of dota (too much), and I couldnt have said it better.
you have my deepest respect, that you climbed all the way up and you share my opinion about this game.
This is exactly why i stopped with DOTA I was pending between 4,3-4,5k so no pleb but not super advanced ether, but one day i just thought to myself "why do i even play this game when i´m not enjoining it anymore" I don´t think personally it was a waste of time, i really had fun with DOTA while it lasted :)
Good for you Grubby
Hey man, love your video and your take is 100% valid.
My one take away though is that this isn't a Dota issue but rather a competitive game issue.
Competitive games no matter what game title will have this type of mentality.
League,Valo,CS,Dota,fortnite, Apex
I’m totally sympathetic to your point of view. I’m perhaps a bit less healthy in my relationship with the game - so for me to quit is giving up something that hits my dopamine centers like no other game has. But I have taken extended multiple year breaks myself because of toxicity too. It sometimes just reaches that point.
@grubbytalks I totally get how you feel with Dota2. I have been playing it off and for the last ~8 years. They just don't want to tackle the toxic side of the game as it could ruin it. You can chat in all chat as well as with your team. It is a high highs and low lows game. Dota2 is as complex as Path of Exile in many ways. This also means there are a ton of ppl who view their vision of the game as the right one. Another one is when you queue into an existing part of 2-4 people. Parties in Dota2 bring out the WORST in people. It is so bad that they made an option to turn off party queues when you queue alone. I could go on... I myself had such a sentiment of how you feel now but for some reason the gameplay just still outweighs the downside of toxicity
Great talk, completely understand you.
Same here.
Thank you so much man i have been watching you a couple years back i learrned alot from you on how to play orc and knowing you tried dota 2 which also my game made me more happier to see you play and experience a game where mutiple unit controlled is a feature. I'm sad to see you leave although you had your reason which is toxicity in community. Thank you for everything.
Long ago I was doing QA testing for a friend's Steam game. They asked how they could make AI more fun. In my feedback I told him that the AI could every now and then flame the player. They put in that feature, lol.
As a Southeast Asian and one of the people who played "Dota 1" from warcraft, playing dota is playing with your ego. I too guilty of that toxicity, most of us are just teenagers before who think we're immune online and we can talk shit to anyone.
Internet culture are primitive on us, we don't know how to interact friendly on internet. We don't think online people are humans too, we thought them as objects.
And as we grew up, some of us didn't mature, we're still fixated on how we behave online, we carry those things in adulthood.
Ngl, I just heard that you're taking a sabbatical so I googled why...and I'm 100% with you. You are SUCH a sweetheart and it was a pleasure to watch you, but I genuinely had to stop watching earlier on (around when you were 2k early in your journey) because of your chat. I heard you made it sub only (maybe? or follower?) at some point but it felt so egregious for the numbers of people who felt entitled to tell you what to do/how to play and shit on you BECAUSE you're SO GOOD, even in low mmr it was obvious that you're a pro mechanically. Even without knowing your background when I started watching, you could tell. Respect for your decision, and wishing you all the best. And, I hope our communities continue to change for the better with voices like yours bringing light to this particular topic of the awful toxicity surrounding our wonderful game.
Hi Grubby, thank you very much for your honest opinion on this. It sounded much like playing street basketball with random people (both teams). You always get people that are chill and great teammates with a mix of critical jerks who only want to win and can't take losses. I guess in person these jerks still hold back a bit due to social norms and online gaming environments have allow them to become toxic trolls.
I play with a few real life friends over the years only vs Bots mainly due to our lack of skills and to avoid turning a fun get together into a who's fault we lost.
As a 6 yr fan from the Grubby channel enjoying your WC3 videos, just want to say thank you for the great game play and for your awesome personality.
I agree completely. A exciting game design with an unbearable toxic community.
I have played since Dota (1) in Warcraft the Frozen Throne. And decided to stopped playing 2 years ago at the rank Divine (5stars) due to the unbearable behavior of teammates and opponents. Even if I had some slip ups of trying the game in hope of not meeting the same experience, I'm now totally okay with missing out on the exciting gameplay to avoid the negatives.
One would hope that the developers would take this issue more serious.
I think becoming a mid laner, where your own skills (that you have proven to be able to train consistently) matter the most, you can give an early advantage to your team, which always minimizes griefing, and boosts mood. Sometimes you can end the game by yourself.
Also, actually having a space to become better and reputated for it, you can join a pro team, and thats when you play the amazing satisfying dota you see in DPC.
Or just find yourself a team of 5 and group queue.
There are many ways to bypass toxic players, if you don't want to handle them.
I've never played any moba except at the beginning.. I tried the dota wc3 mod and it was fun a couple of times, but it was not for me.
Then LoL did steal to SC2 the n°1 esport game rank it deserved.. elitest most brain process requiring game ever made vs a 3 buttons/skills game ? Yeah right.. (and don't get me wrong, I know that Dota 2 is by far the most demanding moba and I respect that)
Then I heard all my friends playing those game "players are toxic" "players are stupid" "I hate loving this toxic game" and I was pretty happy not to like those..
Simple common sense.. it's way too random to get nice people as teamates in soloQ so to me it's pure waste of time..
Happy for Grubby who tries to never waste his time with negativity and did meet many nice people in his Dota 2 journey, great mind set.. but to me again, it's simply not worth the try, those games need to be played with known gaming friends, a team, or not to be played at all, it's that simple.
Also agree on the fact that many players do take games way too seriously and have forgoten the 1st meaning of it: having fun! Pretty sad thing to notice.
Glhf! Peace
I had the same journey. I switched from WC3 to Dota 2 a while back, played a few years, then stopped and reverted back to WC3. Like you I don't miss it and find it hard to watch tbh.
I love your streams but tbh, when you were playing Dota, I would not watch. Now that you play more WC3, I'm super happy :D
NB: The highest point in my WC3 life was when we played together 4v4 during COVID lock down. Much love!
Well said Grubby. I feel pretty much same. I love the game but there is just too much toxicity in ranked. Thats why i started playing normal games and 90% of bad expirience is now gone and i realized i dont need basic number system to enjoy the game. Right now im having lot of fun from Dota 2 again. x)
it is valves fault, they are the ones who are toxic
These are the EXACT same reasons i quite playing LoL. Sometimes i go back to play for a few games and then bounce right off due to the (bad apples in) community.
Now with Vangaurd (kernel level anti cheat) i won’t be playing at all anymore.
I do not want any additional kernel level software to be a forced install for any of software that runs on my machine.
If you are based in Europe and still interested in playing, you could consider reaching out to Sing Sing - in part because of the issues you have mentioned, he generally plays in a 5 stack or even in-house in 10 man or more rotating stacks which are generally high skill but still have a range of players with different skill levels and everyone is just having fun while still trying to win without being toxic ragers. Just a thought
I quit for good after too many teammates not playing seriously, like drow mid picks vs traditional mids. Played since 6.3x Dota 1 but the community has gotten so bad it's not worth it.
Jakiro mid , lion mid like people enjoy trolling so much.
I felt so identified with this video. I watched again today since yesterday I uninstalled Dota. The community it's sometimes exhausting. Love your videos
2:57
The main obstacle in moba games nowadays.... especially for any that passed its growth/golden age
And for learning, I do feel that players from warcraft3/grubby's era have like 5x ability to learn from wins/losses, recent players have no idea how much they could still learn and are full of ego from maybe a gold rank elo?
Back then everyone knows e-sport is an extremely tough and hardworking career, but nowadays people talk like it is a news to learn, bruh