OMG yes! This makes so much sense to me. As a runner, I went all in on full squish with Hoka shoes for a while and they messed me up more than ever. There was more uncontrolled movement in my ankles, which translated to more uncontrolled movement in my knees, hips, back, and neck. It's small in magnitude but amplified by the number of work cycles I put it through as an ultramarathon runner causing more pain. I went to minimal shoes with zero drop and zero arch support and my feet became strong again. It's more like I remember running in spikes to have been. My entire lower posterior chain began to operate as a stiffer system, so I gained more efficiency with less pain. At 66 and with trashed knees I'm even getting back into sprinting a bit (400/800 meter runner in high school). When it comes to my ski boots--I'm a telemark skier so I will flex the footbed to some extent--I experiment with all kinds of different footbeds. I need some volume taken up to keep my foot from moving even in a performance fit, so I try a lot of different materials for shimming. Softer shims make my skiing suck. Arch support--talking the longitudinal arch--just causes pain. But I hit on a cheap, relatively firm, 100 yen (that's about 74 cents) footbed that has that bump under the ball of the foot that Tom referenced at the beginning. I tried it thinking that it would drive me crazy and was stunned to realize that not only did it not drive me crazy, it also made my foot more stable in the boot while also allowing my toes to be more free to feel my edges, the terrain, and the snow so they can react properly to help my balance. But it's still too soft. As a telemark skier, I have come to the realization that the telemark turn works better when I can truly wiggle all my toes. As Paul Parker says, big toe, little toe. I drive the rear ski not purely from the toes, but from the metatarsal head area while using the toes for fine edge control and balance. And that bump is what helps me to free my toes while keeping pressure consistent across the lateral arch of my metatarsals. Shifting the clock so it's relative to the slope again YES! When I see pictures of my skiing, one thing I notice is that my spine tends to be nearly perpendicular to the slope most of the time. I ski from a foundation of balance and I use rotation to get on my edges early and then ride them in a. carved turn. Balance! Since I haven't raced since I was a kid when boots were leather, I never fully bought into the idea that pressure on the tips is how you turn. At recreational speeds, which can still be relatively fast, I need pressure on the middle of the ski so I can use the full length of the edge for control. It takes far less effort to go nearly as fast using balance and rotation. Makes all the difference at my age and I can hang with much younger, more athletic skiers, even alpine and boarders, while expending less energy by riding from that foundation of balance rather than leaning on the cuff of my boot and powering the tips. I am looking at Adarian's other videos on running now and thinking I'd like to try some of these carbon footbeds. Shipping to Japan? Yay! Thank you Tom and Adarian for confirming things I have intuitively known for a very long time.
Regarding materials, carbon fiber allows a mfg to tune the flexibility and the axis of flex. Motorcycles use carbon fiber forks that have specific lateral flex and dorsal rigidity. So, I fully believe this guy can tune that insole to have the flex characteristic he's looking for.
It’s wonderful to finally understand why swapping my custom insoles for the thin OEM insoles made such a difference in feel! Barr’s description of the toes being free to move because the arch is strong on their behalf is so spot-on. Also, the fantastic explanation of why pronation happens (hint: not just at the foot) may also explain why learning to ski with my boots loose also ended up feeling better than with the buckles tightened. It turns out the “easy” route of encapsulating the foot with custom footbeds may have been muting my natural ability to move and feel with my legs and feet. GREAT STUFF.
Tom, another great discussion, thank you! I tried skiing without my footbed one day earlier this season in my telemark boots. The problem I encountered was that the footbed takes up some volume inside the boot liner, and without it my foot was swimming in that space and I didn’t have a good connection to the boot. It would appear to me, after my very limited test, that one must be re-fitted in order to even give this a proper try. Unless you were in an extremely tight alpine race fit, perhaps. Is my experience/observation off base? Admittedly, my tele boots are not an alpine racer fit, and that’s probably the demographic that you are addressing. But even then, the change in volume could be too much without sizing down, increasing the volume of your liners, or getting a really thick CF insole. Thoughts? Love your thought-provoking podcasts & videos!
In relation to improving performance, I agree that hard is an important entity to consider when building proper arch supports for any fixed foot sport. When considering leverage proper arch support can change the range of motion and increase performance. If we allow the arches to collapse the ankle joint can bind up and decrease range of motion making it harder to keep your weight balanced over the base of support or make tiny changes with weight shift. The foot has several bones, tendons and muscles that form the arches of the feet that work together for efficient motion and balance during all stages of the gait. Feet are rarely a perfect bilateral match and a customer's issues are very individual to them and their sport, even athlete's have issues. Full evaluations on your customers comfort, performance concerns and potential medical issues need to be considered when evaluating the use of any device. I like to learn and am interested enough in his perspective on motion that I am considering reading his book.
@@BrianFerguson-p7z At some point we need to start looking at *why the arch collapse is a problem. A *controlled* flattening and articulation/rotation of the foot structure in response to a grf or load is crucial for performance. The problem occurs when one can't then re-supinate. So the usual fix is to prop up with a support of come kind. Let's get people to work and focus on the former so they can help move away from the latter when possible. Just my 2 cents.
@@zentune100 Evaluating lower leg/foot function should be a part of initial assessments, especially when fitting ski boots. How we apply that to individual abilities in their chosen activity will vary. Individuals are unique, no one size fits all solution. Ultimately, I listen to the customers goals and work towards obtaining them using all the tools available to me. I am always absorbing information and using it when applicable. Thanks for listening...
Footbeds became popular because they increased a ski stores profit. First, even if "The Athletic Skier" was correct that footbeds are helpful for the racer, few skiers benefit from a tenth of a second. The average recreational skier wasted $200 buying custom footbeds. That being said, a footbed eliminates the fine tuning balance that all of the small joints in the foot provides.
Omg he is a fast talker. Really interesting. I’m still trying to get my head around the concepts especially comparing to some of your other guests eg Brent amsbury. Thanks. Love you podcasts and thinking questioning brain
To, Tom what is the conclusion here for skiers and racers? My U16 daughter uses Maseterfits and now that she has move to a Lange ZA they had to be trimmed down to practically nothing. She is currently experimenting with them since she finds less foot discomfort when they are out of the liner and she has nothing in there yet, she has relatively flat feet, especially her left foot.
Up to you. It’s just another perspective. Sounds like if you listen to what feels good to you, not what someone else tells you, is a guide compass to follow.
I wonder if the commonly-available (if still rather expensive) flat carbon fiber insoles would work for her and - according to Barr & Gellie - maybe even enhance performance?
OMG yes! This makes so much sense to me. As a runner, I went all in on full squish with Hoka shoes for a while and they messed me up more than ever. There was more uncontrolled movement in my ankles, which translated to more uncontrolled movement in my knees, hips, back, and neck. It's small in magnitude but amplified by the number of work cycles I put it through as an ultramarathon runner causing more pain. I went to minimal shoes with zero drop and zero arch support and my feet became strong again. It's more like I remember running in spikes to have been. My entire lower posterior chain began to operate as a stiffer system, so I gained more efficiency with less pain. At 66 and with trashed knees I'm even getting back into sprinting a bit (400/800 meter runner in high school).
When it comes to my ski boots--I'm a telemark skier so I will flex the footbed to some extent--I experiment with all kinds of different footbeds. I need some volume taken up to keep my foot from moving even in a performance fit, so I try a lot of different materials for shimming. Softer shims make my skiing suck. Arch support--talking the longitudinal arch--just causes pain. But I hit on a cheap, relatively firm, 100 yen (that's about 74 cents) footbed that has that bump under the ball of the foot that Tom referenced at the beginning. I tried it thinking that it would drive me crazy and was stunned to realize that not only did it not drive me crazy, it also made my foot more stable in the boot while also allowing my toes to be more free to feel my edges, the terrain, and the snow so they can react properly to help my balance. But it's still too soft. As a telemark skier, I have come to the realization that the telemark turn works better when I can truly wiggle all my toes. As Paul Parker says, big toe, little toe. I drive the rear ski not purely from the toes, but from the metatarsal head area while using the toes for fine edge control and balance. And that bump is what helps me to free my toes while keeping pressure consistent across the lateral arch of my metatarsals.
Shifting the clock so it's relative to the slope again YES! When I see pictures of my skiing, one thing I notice is that my spine tends to be nearly perpendicular to the slope most of the time. I ski from a foundation of balance and I use rotation to get on my edges early and then ride them in a. carved turn. Balance! Since I haven't raced since I was a kid when boots were leather, I never fully bought into the idea that pressure on the tips is how you turn. At recreational speeds, which can still be relatively fast, I need pressure on the middle of the ski so I can use the full length of the edge for control. It takes far less effort to go nearly as fast using balance and rotation. Makes all the difference at my age and I can hang with much younger, more athletic skiers, even alpine and boarders, while expending less energy by riding from that foundation of balance rather than leaning on the cuff of my boot and powering the tips.
I am looking at Adarian's other videos on running now and thinking I'd like to try some of these carbon footbeds. Shipping to Japan? Yay! Thank you Tom and Adarian for confirming things I have intuitively known for a very long time.
Do you have a link to the 100 yuan footbed that you use?
Regarding materials, carbon fiber allows a mfg to tune the flexibility and the axis of flex. Motorcycles use carbon fiber forks that have specific lateral flex and dorsal rigidity.
So, I fully believe this guy can tune that insole to have the flex characteristic he's looking for.
It’s wonderful to finally understand why swapping my custom insoles for the thin OEM insoles made such a difference in feel!
Barr’s description of the toes being free to move because the arch is strong on their behalf is so spot-on.
Also, the fantastic explanation of why pronation happens (hint: not just at the foot) may also explain why learning to ski with my boots loose also ended up feeling better than with the buckles tightened.
It turns out the “easy” route of encapsulating the foot with custom footbeds may have been muting my natural ability to move and feel with my legs and feet.
GREAT STUFF.
Threw my footbeds out. Didn't feel they made any difference and just put more pressure on my instep because they are so thick.
Would this be beneficial for a flat foot? My foot needs a flat foot bed. arch support creates hot spots generally.
yes
Tom, another great discussion, thank you!
I tried skiing without my footbed one day earlier this season in my telemark boots. The problem I encountered was that the footbed takes up some volume inside the boot liner, and without it my foot was swimming in that space and I didn’t have a good connection to the boot. It would appear to me, after my very limited test, that one must be re-fitted in order to even give this a proper try. Unless you were in an extremely tight alpine race fit, perhaps.
Is my experience/observation off base? Admittedly, my tele boots are not an alpine racer fit, and that’s probably the demographic that you are addressing. But even then, the change in volume could be too much without sizing down, increasing the volume of your liners, or getting a really thick CF insole. Thoughts?
Love your thought-provoking podcasts & videos!
Interesting perspective, some applicable information but a clear lack of understanding on anatomy, physiology as it relates to fixed foot sports.
Would you be able to give an example of where they are wrong according to that “lack of understanding”?
Care to elaborate?
In relation to improving performance, I agree that hard is an important entity to consider when building proper arch supports for any fixed foot sport. When considering leverage proper arch support can change the range of motion and increase performance. If we allow the arches to collapse the ankle joint can bind up and decrease range of motion making it harder to keep your weight balanced over the base of support or make tiny changes with weight shift. The foot has several bones, tendons and muscles that form the arches of the feet that work together for efficient motion and balance during all stages of the gait. Feet are rarely a perfect bilateral match and a customer's issues are very individual to them and their sport, even athlete's have issues. Full evaluations on your customers comfort, performance concerns and potential medical issues need to be considered when evaluating the use of any device. I like to learn and am interested enough in his perspective on motion that I am considering reading his book.
@@BrianFerguson-p7z At some point we need to start looking at *why the arch collapse is a problem. A *controlled* flattening and articulation/rotation of the foot structure in response to a grf or load is crucial for performance. The problem occurs when one can't then re-supinate. So the usual fix is to prop up with a support of come kind. Let's get people to work and focus on the former so they can help move away from the latter when possible. Just my 2 cents.
@@zentune100 Evaluating lower leg/foot function should be a part of initial assessments, especially when fitting ski boots. How we apply that to individual abilities in their chosen activity will vary. Individuals are unique, no one size fits all solution. Ultimately, I listen to the customers goals and work towards obtaining them using all the tools available to me. I am always absorbing information and using it when applicable. Thanks for listening...
Footbeds became popular because they increased a ski stores profit. First, even if "The Athletic Skier" was correct that footbeds are helpful for the racer, few skiers benefit from a tenth of a second. The average recreational skier wasted $200 buying custom footbeds.
That being said, a footbed eliminates the fine tuning balance that all of the small joints in the foot provides.
I found this to be a fascinating listen, cant wait to digest a few points and apply to my skiing and daily training. 😎
Tom, given the indentations in the carbon insoles will they work ok with CARV?
Omg he is a fast talker. Really interesting. I’m still trying to get my head around the concepts especially comparing to some of your other guests eg Brent amsbury.
Thanks. Love you podcasts and thinking questioning brain
To, Tom what is the conclusion here for skiers and racers? My U16 daughter uses Maseterfits and now that she has move to a Lange ZA they had to be trimmed down to practically nothing. She is currently experimenting with them since she finds less foot discomfort when they are out of the liner and she has nothing in there yet, she has relatively flat feet, especially her left foot.
Up to you. It’s just another perspective. Sounds like if you listen to what feels good to you, not what someone else tells you, is a guide compass to follow.
I wonder if the commonly-available (if still rather expensive) flat carbon fiber insoles would work for her and - according to Barr & Gellie - maybe even enhance performance?
@@kuanjuliu Most of their website is not working unfortunately.