Hello Greg, thank you for all of the detail, personality and passion you put into each video! I am in agreement with other "trendsetters" comments, let us worry about the length of your video and please keep you great content coming. I am new to using computer control for my layout and setting up blocks with occupancy indication is critical to the software's success in running the trains. Quickly finding the cost of even a few signal indicators quickly mount up for a small layout :) Great channel and thrilled I am a subscriber of your high caliber videos. Cheers mate!
Thanks very much for the kind words John! Signalling is very complicated and even a little can be time consuming and expensive,....as you have found out! Though it is pretty cool to have some working signals on your layout and it does become a bit addictive! I'm glad you like the videos and have gotten some tips from them. Thanks again and I appreciate the support . Cheers Gregg.
@@FishplateFilms Gregg, This is your Trendsetter from Conroe Texas, writing to ask for some clarity on BD20 and the circuit for a block! You continue to be a great instructor for me as electricity is not my strong suit! At this stage after watching your video more than a few times, (many rewinds) I am confused about the "isolation" of third bus wire to the a BD20 from other BD20's on a common power bus. If there is an insulated rail section named "rail section 1" with BD20 -1 installed midway into the length of this block, as the loco enters and moves over the isolation point between "rail section 1" onto "rail section 2", it picks up power from "rail section 2" where I have BD20 - 2 installed midway. If power is jumper-ed over to "rail section 2" from "rail section 1" how does BD20 -1 not be effected by the resistance generated on "rail section 2 at they still remain common to carry power onto the next block? Is the answer running home run wiring, where I do not jumper power from one block to another ? I must set up separate active and common power wires to each "rail section" to keep each BD20 from reading the current from the other blocks via the jumper-ed common? Yes Gregg, this journey has grown to a total rewire of my layout and it is a lot of time and cost, but I want all to be automated with JMRI. Please help this Trendsetter :) Cheers mate, John Greene
@@johngreene8635 Hi John , thanks for the compliment and I appreciate the kind comments. You may kick your self , bit if I understand you right , you are saying a loco will be detected by both BD20's when it passes over a joint? This is exactly what you want to happen as the train is in both blocks! Remember that all of your freight cars would have resistor axels so every one will be detected and trip any BD20's that detect them. So normally when the loco passes over a insulated joint, the track behind it would be detected by the cars and the loco would trip the next block and so on . The reason my relays click on and off as the loco passes over a joint, is that there are no cars behind it (with resistor axels) holding the block down! Hope this answers your question. Cheers to you in the Lone Star State. Gregg.
Hi Greg, I know what it's like shift working as well, I did 5 years of it, a different start time every day. Thank you for another interesting video 👍🏻. Take care. Regards Gary, from the West.
Great rant, Kato makes the best drives, details are good. I have used infrared detectors, not as complicated, great video, the next layout I will build will have your system, love the challenge. Can't wait to see the entire layout signaled Gregg. Cheers Terry
Thanks Terry..LOL I wish Kato would get their act together too..I forgot them! I used IR detectors on my old layout, but they are limited to what they can do. Using BD20's and JMRI instead of relays gets you a fantastic, almost real system that is a lot easier to set up, but this is just to show how it's done Old School..LOL Nice spring days down here now. Cheers Gregg
Super job Greg, I've heard that Atlas was bought out by Bachmann. I'll watch this a couple more times, not sure I totally grasped what you are doing. Thanks for your excellent training videos, always look forward to them, cheers.
Thanks very much Joe! I hope thats not a step backwards for Atlas if thats true?? I forgot to show a signal actually working!!! I'll do that in the next video...too busy ranting on..LOL Cheers Gregg.
Good stuff Greg. I love good old analog wiring and millions of relays clacking! All of my prototype signals run on timers and relays, all off the shelf Jaycar stuff. Now......lets talk wiring up 3 aspect signals.....!
They are cool to listen to Richard! These relays are a better version that I got from RS Components, and were about $13.00 each if I remember?? So the cost to do a relay interlocking is many times more than using electronic IL.! To add another aspect would involve many more relays!!! Not today thanks mate..LOL Cheers Gregg.
Thank you! Everyone does this a little different , so it's a good idea to get a few ideas and pick the system that works for you. Thanks for the support. Gregg:-)
It always amazes both how much you can do with relay interlocking and how many relays/space it takes to do it. It'd be damn interesting to watch you explain how failsafe relay interlocking works (and how damn unintuititve it is at first).
Thanks Harry! Relay IL is and can be very complicated but can do anything that is required of a signal system...but it is huge and very expensive!! Relays average at about $1000.00 each and a modest interlocking will have about 50 at the least! I will do a drawing of my next small IL and do a video on that. Thanks for watching. Cheers Gregg
You've totally lost me Dave but it sounds like a good idea..LOL. They are a versatile bit of kit. I enjoyed Colorado and Denver was one of my favourite cities . Cheers Gregg.
I'm a little puzzled that you're mating BD20s with "other", non-DCC relays. This woks, but it's added complexity and trouble. Th US manufacturer Dallee Electronics makes a unitized current detector-cum-relay called a TRAK-DT that includes an LED that indicates whether it's latched or not. Seems like it might be a simpler approach, but you may be able to clarify exactly what you're doing here.
I'm only doing it for an exercise John , until I get JMRI up and running. Plus it shows just how much wiring and gear you need to do the same as a bit on a computer! Plus having relay interlocking, be it a very simple one, means I don't have to run a computer to run the layout if Im by myself. There's no way I would do the whole layout like this!! Cheers Gregg.
Hi Greg, Like your video, I am installing relays and leds with my BD 20’s , but appears not enough power to trip relay. What amperage is required ? I am using SPDT 30 amp horn relay. should I be using say a 10 amp relay ?
Thank you Mal! That relay is WAY to big for the BD20 to drive, even the small ones I use drop the output volts down to about 11! I think the max is 20 or 30 mA and t your relays will pull much more than that..so I'm afraid it's off to the electronics store and put the car parts away ....LOL Cheers Gregg :-)
Your induction loop on the BD50 is a great idea BUT I'm surprised it's getting hot - is it powered by 12 volts dc? High current supply will make it hot, perhaps try 5 volts at a lower current ?? If it's from a computer system then the probability it was supplied at 5 volts or 10.8 volts max.........just a thought. Good video.
Thanks Bobby! The loop is not getting hot,, just the power transistors ( or whatever they are) that run the relay output. The detector is running on about 11 volts and the relays on 12V . It is a big relay to be driving from the detector, but within the range. Cheers Gregg.
Excellent point about metal wheels shorting the gap between districts. That said, I don''t see where you placed the relay coil diode to keep the back EMF from frying the detector module silicon. I don't see any diodes on your terminal block. Do you have it at the BD-20?
Thank you ! If you cut the rail and fill it with a piece of plastic, that's enough not to let the wheels drop across both blocks, but the fishplates do let the wheels drop across. But if your wheels had resistors, which mine will eventually, you would not notice it. As. for the back emf , I never though about it!!! But the BD'20's are made to run relays, so I assume they have them built in...or mine would be fried by now..LOL Cheers Gregg
Not to be a pest... But I hope you don't mind if I ask for clarification here. Part of me is still a bit confused. Using plastic rail-joiners or other "filler" to keep the metal wheels from bridging across the gap.... confirm for me please that this solution is only intended to work for coaches and freight cars where each axle is electrically isolated from the next. Seems to me that (even if you used plastic rail joiners) wouldn't a locomotive with multiple axle pick-ups on a single truck bridge the rail gap anyway (temporarily making both districts the same)?
Not a pest at all! Normally both blocks would be dropped due to resistive wheelsets, so shorting out the joint would not matter, as the block with the cars on it would be down until the last cars exits the block. Since mine aren't yet, the block with the cars on it picks up as soon as the locos leaves the block and then the wheels short on the joint and drop the block for a second. If it was connected to JMRI and no relay, you would not notice it. Cheers Gregg
Its not a rant its a truthfull expression that sleep deprived people cant help but do .too tired to hide some one else crap .and cant be assed if some ones feelings get hurt .
No Art, they are 12 volt "panel" relays that are normally used in control circuits for machinery in factories and other stuff! I will show you some railway relays in a future video! Cheers Gregg.
I've DONE those shifts before, mate... when I was able to work. I completely agree with your rant! WHY NO CONCRETE TIES ON TURNOUTS!!!??? I suppose that you *could* get in there with a small brush and some concrete paint... it'll look.......OK. But WHY should you even have to, ya know? Although I was a bit fascinated by all that signalling bits and bobs, you may have gone over several of your Trendsetter's heads! Looks like you're really trying to make your home Layout look like your Work Layout!!! It is pretty cool, but above my pay grade. I have my own issue at the moment.... and with respect to Electronic Boffins, you might be the brightest I know! I've got two reverse loops. I have two auto reversing units, all good. Well... Notsomuch! I have no idea how to make my Tortoises automatically align the turnouts, to the direction of the Train entering the turnout. I'm dead baffled! YES, I could buy a DCC Specialities PSX-AR..... but I can't currently afford FOOD for next week! 😩 (seriously) Is there ANY very inexpensive method of detecting and automatically throwing the turnout???? Can you help? 😵 Cheers, Carmine 🚂
Hi Greg. Thanks for your videos. With the BD20 and he relay, can you still connect the BD20 to an AIU? I want to signal a 5v relay to operate an UNO keeping the AIU for JMRI track location. Richard from Tasmania
Wouldn't something like this be more practical with a array of NAND gates that are switched using the BD20's that continues using the 5 volts for CMOS or TTL?
I have no idea what you're talking about!! LOL Normally the BD20's are hooked up to a mini panel or AIU card, this is just a example of relay interlocking. Gregg:-)
FishplateFilms yeah I thought twice about posting that. Basically what I was mentioning would be a digital way to do the same thing as the relays, with less current load and would be silent.
That is what JMRI is all about, but as I work on the prototype, I am showing how a(very) basic relay interlocking works. The real relay interlocking's have hundreds of relays and make a lot of noise when operating! I work on both relay and electronic signal systems. Cheers Gregg.
No worries at all! I'm not into electronic's but normally you hook up the BD20's to the appropriate interface, eg. AiU which is I assume similar to what you are saying. Gregg.
Great vid as always, one thing though you say "keep them shorter", I must disagree, whenever I find content I like on youtube I always wish it was longer, I don't mind listerning to rants raves and dribbling on or whatever if I like it I wish it would go forever, if not I don't like it I just leave. Keep up the good work bud Cheers
Thank you Sir! Glad you liked the video and happy to sit through my waffling on..LOL On thing I did forget was to actually show a signal changing!!! Will do that in the next video. Thanks for the support. Cheers Gregg.
So does the BD20 detect the current draw, or does it detect the transponding of the decoder ? I want to use Block Detection to activate my crossings but how would it handle a long train ?
The BD20 detects any current draw on the section of track that it is connected to, so if you want it to work properly, all your cars must have resistive axels! For crossings it is easier to use infa -red detectors unless the tracks through the crossing are part of the CTC system. SO it's lots of resistors for you and hours of gluing to axels!! Cheers Gregg.
Hello Greg, thank you for all of the detail, personality and passion you put into each video! I am in agreement with other "trendsetters" comments, let us worry about the length of your video and please keep you great content coming. I am new to using computer control for my layout and setting up blocks with occupancy indication is critical to the software's success in running the trains. Quickly finding the cost of even a few signal indicators quickly mount up for a small layout :) Great channel and thrilled I am a subscriber of your high caliber videos. Cheers mate!
Thanks very much for the kind words John! Signalling is very complicated and even a little can be time consuming and expensive,....as you have found out! Though it is pretty cool to have some working signals on your layout and it does become a bit addictive! I'm glad you like the videos and have gotten some tips from them. Thanks again and I appreciate the support .
Cheers Gregg.
@@FishplateFilms Gregg,
This is your Trendsetter from Conroe Texas, writing to ask for some clarity on BD20 and the circuit for a block!
You continue to be a great instructor for me as electricity is not my strong suit! At this stage after watching your video more than a few times, (many rewinds) I am confused about the "isolation" of third bus wire to the a BD20 from other BD20's on a common power bus.
If there is an insulated rail section named "rail section 1" with BD20 -1 installed midway into the length of this block, as the loco enters and moves over the isolation point between "rail section 1" onto "rail section 2", it picks up power from "rail section 2" where I have BD20 - 2 installed midway.
If power is jumper-ed over to "rail section 2" from "rail section 1" how does BD20 -1 not be effected by the resistance generated on "rail section 2 at they still remain common to carry power onto the next block?
Is the answer running home run wiring, where I do not jumper power from one block to another ? I must set up separate active and common power wires to each "rail section" to keep each BD20 from reading the current from the other blocks via the jumper-ed common?
Yes Gregg, this journey has grown to a total rewire of my layout and it is a lot of time and cost, but I want all to be automated with JMRI. Please help this Trendsetter :)
Cheers mate,
John Greene
@@johngreene8635 Hi John , thanks for the compliment and I appreciate the kind comments. You may kick your self , bit if I understand you right , you are saying a loco will be detected by both BD20's when it passes over a joint? This is exactly what you want to happen as the train is in both blocks! Remember that all of your freight cars would have resistor axels so every one will be detected and trip any BD20's that detect them. So normally when the loco passes over a insulated joint, the track behind it would be detected by the cars and the loco would trip the next block and so on . The reason my relays click on and off as the loco passes over a joint, is that there are no cars behind it (with resistor axels) holding the block down! Hope this answers your question.
Cheers to you in the Lone Star State.
Gregg.
Hi Greg, I know what it's like shift working as well, I did 5 years of it, a different start time every day.
Thank you for another interesting video 👍🏻. Take care. Regards Gary, from the West.
You know what it's like Gary!! Glad you like the video and thanks for watching!
Cheers Gregg
Hi Greg, another fantastic video. Look forward to seeing the wiring diagram. I'm slowly building up my stock of BD20's to carry out similar functions.
Thank you! I'm building up my stock as well! I'm working on the next section and wiring now and will show that in the next video.
Cheers Gregg.
Great rant, Kato makes the best drives, details are good. I have used infrared detectors, not as complicated, great video, the next layout I will build will have your system, love the challenge. Can't wait to see the entire layout signaled Gregg. Cheers Terry
Thanks Terry..LOL I wish Kato would get their act together too..I forgot them! I used IR detectors on my old layout, but they are limited to what they can do. Using BD20's and JMRI instead of relays gets you a fantastic, almost real system that is a lot easier to set up, but this is just to show how it's done Old School..LOL
Nice spring days down here now.
Cheers Gregg
Super job Greg, I've heard that Atlas was bought out by Bachmann. I'll watch this a couple more times, not sure I totally grasped what you are doing. Thanks for your excellent training videos, always look forward to them, cheers.
Thanks very much Joe! I hope thats not a step backwards for Atlas if thats true?? I forgot to show a signal actually working!!! I'll do that in the next video...too busy ranting on..LOL
Cheers Gregg.
Great Work, and lecture, Greg!
Thank you Larry! Glad you liked it.
Cheers Gregg.
Good stuff Greg. I love good old analog wiring and millions of relays clacking! All of my prototype signals run on timers and relays, all off the shelf Jaycar stuff. Now......lets talk wiring up 3 aspect signals.....!
They are cool to listen to Richard! These relays are a better version that I got from RS Components, and were about $13.00 each if I remember?? So the cost to do a relay interlocking is many times more than using electronic IL.! To add another aspect would involve many more relays!!! Not today thanks mate..LOL
Cheers Gregg.
Great Video, Im lost now so ill keep reffering back to this wonderfull video.
My Brain Hurts. Cheers and thanks again.
Thank you! Everyone does this a little different , so it's a good idea to get a few ideas and pick the system that works for you.
Thanks for the support.
Gregg:-)
It always amazes both how much you can do with relay interlocking and how many relays/space it takes to do it. It'd be damn interesting to watch you explain how failsafe relay interlocking works (and how damn unintuititve it is at first).
Thanks Harry! Relay IL is and can be very complicated but can do anything that is required of a signal system...but it is huge and very expensive!! Relays average at about $1000.00 each and a modest interlocking will have about 50 at the least! I will do a drawing of my next small IL and do a video on that.
Thanks for watching.
Cheers Gregg
Greetings from Colorado USA.
I'm going to use BD20s with my LCC CAN bus and talk to the CAN bus using RR-CirKits LCC to USB interface.
You've totally lost me Dave but it sounds like a good idea..LOL. They are a versatile bit of kit. I enjoyed Colorado and Denver was one of my favourite cities .
Cheers Gregg.
Great vid , but a bit to much involved for me , lol , but I know now who to call when my layout needs block detection and signaling !!!
Cheers Glynn
Thanks Glynn! Signalling is a complex beast and JMRI makes it so much easier but even then it's complicated..LOL
Cheers Gregg.
I'm a little puzzled that you're mating BD20s with "other", non-DCC relays. This woks, but it's added complexity and trouble. Th US manufacturer Dallee Electronics makes a unitized current detector-cum-relay called a TRAK-DT that includes an LED that indicates whether it's latched or not. Seems like it might be a simpler approach, but you may be able to clarify exactly what you're doing here.
I'm only doing it for an exercise John , until I get JMRI up and running. Plus it shows just how much wiring and gear you need to do the same as a bit on a computer! Plus having relay interlocking, be it a very simple one, means I don't have to run a computer to run the layout if Im by myself. There's no way I would do the whole layout like this!!
Cheers Gregg.
Hi Greg, Like your video, I am installing relays and leds with my BD 20’s , but appears not enough power to trip relay. What amperage is required ? I am using SPDT 30 amp horn relay. should I be using say a 10 amp relay ?
Thank you Mal! That relay is WAY to big for the BD20 to drive, even the small ones I use drop the output volts down to about 11! I think the max is 20 or 30 mA and t your relays will pull much more than that..so I'm afraid it's off to the electronics store and put the car parts away ....LOL
Cheers Gregg :-)
Enjoy your videos! Can you tell me how to wire a Circuitron SD1 for detecting signals?
Thanks John! I haven't used one so I don't know I'm afraid.
Gregg .
Your induction loop on the BD50 is a great idea BUT I'm surprised it's getting hot - is it powered by 12 volts dc? High current supply will make it hot, perhaps try 5 volts at a lower current ?? If it's from a computer system then the probability it was supplied at 5 volts or 10.8 volts max.........just a thought. Good video.
Thanks Bobby! The loop is not getting hot,, just the power transistors ( or whatever they are) that run the relay output. The detector is running on about 11 volts and the relays on 12V . It is a big relay to be driving from the detector, but within the range.
Cheers Gregg.
Great show Can I use a accessory switch on my points to opperate signals
Yes you can Joe, thats how I did mine before I put in the interlocking.
Cheers Gregg.
Excellent point about metal wheels shorting the gap between districts. That said, I don''t see where you placed the relay coil diode to keep the back EMF from frying the detector module silicon. I don't see any diodes on your terminal block. Do you have it at the BD-20?
Thank you ! If you cut the rail and fill it with a piece of plastic, that's enough not to let the wheels drop across both blocks, but the fishplates do let the wheels drop across. But if your wheels had resistors, which mine will eventually, you would not notice it. As. for the back emf , I never though about it!!! But the BD'20's are made to run relays, so I assume they have them built in...or mine would be fried by now..LOL
Cheers Gregg
Not to be a pest... But I hope you don't mind if I ask for clarification here. Part of me is still a bit confused.
Using plastic rail-joiners or other "filler" to keep the metal wheels from bridging across the gap.... confirm for me please that this solution is only intended to work for coaches and freight cars where each axle is electrically isolated from the next.
Seems to me that (even if you used plastic rail joiners) wouldn't a locomotive with multiple axle pick-ups on a single truck bridge the rail gap anyway (temporarily making both districts the same)?
Not a pest at all! Normally both blocks would be dropped due to resistive wheelsets, so shorting out the joint would not matter, as the block with the cars on it would be down until the last cars exits the block. Since mine aren't yet, the block with the cars on it picks up as soon as the locos leaves the block and then the wheels short on the joint and drop the block for a second. If it was connected to JMRI and no relay, you would not notice it.
Cheers Gregg
Thank you! Impressive response time, too!
Its not a rant its a truthfull expression that sleep deprived people cant help but do .too tired to hide some one else crap .and cant be assed if some ones feelings get hurt .
Awesome video my friend.
Thank you Chris! As usual I went way over time ...again!
Cheers mate.
Gregg.
Are the relays something from the 1-1 RR.
No Art, they are 12 volt "panel" relays that are normally used in control circuits for machinery in factories and other stuff! I will show you some railway relays in a future video!
Cheers Gregg.
I've DONE those shifts before, mate... when I was able to work.
I completely agree with your rant! WHY NO CONCRETE TIES ON TURNOUTS!!!??? I suppose that you *could* get in there with a small brush and some concrete paint... it'll look.......OK.
But WHY should you even have to, ya know?
Although I was a bit fascinated by all that signalling bits and bobs, you may have gone over several of your Trendsetter's heads! Looks like you're really trying to make your home Layout look like your Work Layout!!! It is pretty cool, but above my pay grade.
I have my own issue at the moment.... and with respect to Electronic Boffins, you might be the brightest I know!
I've got two reverse loops. I have two auto reversing units, all good. Well... Notsomuch! I have no idea how to make my Tortoises automatically align the turnouts, to the direction of the Train entering the turnout. I'm dead baffled!
YES, I could buy a DCC Specialities PSX-AR..... but I can't currently afford FOOD for next week! 😩 (seriously)
Is there ANY very inexpensive method of detecting and automatically throwing the turnout????
Can you help? 😵
Cheers, Carmine 🚂
Hi Greg. Thanks for your videos. With the BD20 and he relay, can you still connect the BD20 to an AIU? I want to signal a 5v relay to operate an UNO keeping the AIU for JMRI track location.
Richard from Tasmania
a trick : watch series at Flixzone. Been using them for watching a lot of movies during the lockdown.
@Noah Jagger definitely, have been watching on Flixzone} for months myself :D
@Noah Jagger yup, I've been watching on flixzone} for since december myself =)
we love the rant.
LOL.... Sometimes it all gets a bit much!!
Gregg:-)
Wouldn't something like this be more practical with a array of NAND gates that are switched using the BD20's that continues using the 5 volts for CMOS or TTL?
I have no idea what you're talking about!! LOL Normally the BD20's are hooked up to a mini panel or AIU card, this is just a example of relay interlocking.
Gregg:-)
FishplateFilms yeah I thought twice about posting that. Basically what I was mentioning would be a digital way to do the same thing as the relays, with less current load and would be silent.
That is what JMRI is all about, but as I work on the prototype, I am showing how a(very) basic relay interlocking works. The real relay interlocking's have hundreds of relays and make a lot of noise when operating! I work on both relay and electronic signal systems.
Cheers Gregg.
Oh no worries, more of a thought than a critique, there are a couple ideas I have been working on for DCC, things like this spark ideas
No worries at all! I'm not into electronic's but normally you hook up the BD20's to the appropriate interface, eg. AiU which is I assume similar to what you are saying.
Gregg.
Signaling is a little complicated. If I tried to wire up the layout, I would probably blow the house up.
THANKS MATE
Great vid as always, one thing though you say "keep them shorter", I must disagree, whenever I find content I like on youtube I always wish it was longer, I don't mind listerning to rants raves and dribbling on or whatever if I like it I wish it would go forever, if not I don't like it I just leave.
Keep up the good work bud
Cheers
Thank you Sir! Glad you liked the video and happy to sit through my waffling on..LOL On thing I did forget was to actually show a signal changing!!! Will do that in the next video. Thanks for the support.
Cheers Gregg.
i know how you feel i did 13 days in a row and no one wanted to be near me at the 9th day
LOL...I'm normally pretty good but after 13yrs of it my patience is getting a bit thin!
Thanks for watching, Dan.
Gregg :-)
So does the BD20 detect the current draw, or does it detect the transponding of the decoder ? I want to use Block Detection to activate my crossings but how would it handle a long train ?
The BD20 detects any current draw on the section of track that it is connected to, so if you want it to work properly, all your cars must have resistive axels! For crossings it is easier to use infa -red detectors unless the tracks through the crossing are part of the CTC system. SO it's lots of resistors for you and hours of gluing to axels!!
Cheers Gregg.