Whatever Happened to the Fleet Line?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Railway Mania podcast is here: • Tales from Tales from ...
So you might know the Fleet Line was the original name for the Jubilee Line, but how did we get from the one case of affairs to the other case of affairs?
Ko-Fi: ko-fi.com/jago...
Patreon: / jagohazzard
“London transport actually stopped advertising the opening date because it was getting embarrassing…”
*ahem, crossrail, crossrail, cough cough*
What about crossrail?
@@moover123 A number of years behind schedule and opening… Dates given that came and went… multiple times…
You mean the Elizabeth the Third (of England) line I presume !!
@@johnmurrell3175 Yes, colloquially and widely acknowledge as Crossrail.
@@OfficialRyanx Will it open before King George gets on the Throne ? Otherwise will there be pressure to rename it or else build another line quickly to be called 'The George Line' ??
"they stopped advertising the opening, cause it was getting embarrassing"
Plus ca change? Looking at you Elizabeth line
I think the story of the Elizabeth line will make an interesting video one day. It seemed to be progressing very well at one point, with technically challenging parts of the project, such as the rehabilitation of the Connaught tunnel, being completed on schedule. But as a daily user of what was to be incorporated into the western section of the route, it was obvious that no work was being done on the project in the area at all. They didn't start rebuilding Ealing Broadway, Southall or Hayes and Harlington stations until well after the originally planned opening date had passed, and they are still building sites. I'd really like to know what went so badly wrong with the schedule. Was it complex technical difficulties or incompetent project management, or something else? It all seemed to be on track until, all of a sudden, it wasn't. It was like something big hurtling towards you at great speed, which narrowly misses you then disappears into the distance behind you. "What on earth was that?" "That was our opening date."
Yes, talk about history repeating itself. Renaming the new railway after a connection to do with royalty, followed by a lengthy delay in opening, false over--optimistic opening dates publicised, and by the time it does open, many people are so fed up with hearing about the project...sounds familiar?
@@ianmcclavin But then it becomes one of London's most loved transport lines as has whats happened with the Jubilee then it might all be worth it
Cutler had the knives out... gratuitous pun for the win. Mornington Crescent
@@pangolin83 Unless you use the Jubilee platforms in Waterloo lol
In 1977, my family and I were among the waves of tourists coming to London. It was our first trip to England, and my brother and I were still little enough to travel at significantly cheaper fares. We still have our little Silver Jubilee jackets, and I still have my scratchy lurex Silver Jubilee socks.
We spent a week in London, and then Dad rented a car, and drove us throughout southern England.
In 1979, we spent a week in London, en route to a conference in Vilach, Austria, where Dad was a featured speaker. But we didn't ride the Jubilee Line, because it hadn't opened yet.
That reminds me of how my Oyster card is the 150th anniversary design. Not very useful anymore as I don’t live nearby anymore and you can more easily use contractless with a smartphone nowadays. But I don’t want to send it in to get the £2 off it because I know it’s a more significant piece of ephemera than normal Oysters!
"it was stuck between two Poles"
*me as a Pole looking on confused*
Not Polish myself but I had the same concern. What did Jakub do to deserve this? Does he get toilet breaks?
@@davidellis4031 North Pole, that is in West London, and Worlds End , in Chelsea more like.
"Victory from the jaws of de-fleet". Sheer bloody poetry!
We had a street party for the Silver Jubilee. It was good. I was very young at the time.
My dad's contribution was a jubilee cocktail, he somehow worked out how to pour three colours of liquid into a glass and not mix them, giving us red white and blue striped drinks. I'll have to ask him how he did that? Being an alcoholic probably helped. God only knows how he and his liver are still with us nearly half a century later?
I use the Jubilee line every day and go past West Hampstead. At 2.18 there is a southbound pulling in at West Hampstead and just above the train is the word 'runchy' spray painted on the wall 5 times in a row. I have no idea what it means, but whenever I go past, I count all the runchys.
After writing this, I realised that I now seem incredibly weird but I must put this out there
That is just so runchy.
You are not weird.
What is probably weird, is that I and probably many others have waited till 2:18 to look for the word Runchy, or is that Rumchy?!
Weirder still, I googled Runchy West Hamspead 'checks notes' - do not google Runchy West Hampstead...
@@actuallypaulstanley i googled it... 🙈👀
Probably someone's graffiti tag.
TRiG (Ireland) I did wonder if Runchy tagged that wall whilst laying on the corrugated roof, so spraying upside down, or with a ladder from the other side of the tracks...
Okay, I admit it, it's getting weird now; sorry everyone.
As a backpacking Aussie visiting London in 1979, I was bemused by all the controversy over NOT naming the new line the Fleet Line. It seems there were signs and other forms of written protest everywhere. Perhaps the cleverest of all was by someone who penned "Fleet Line? Don't Jubilee-ve it!".
Brilliant, just brilliant, "Jaws of Defleet" will definitely feature in future conversations!
"One does not simply walk into Morden" is still on my conversations list ;)
I wonder if any Grecian would use it at Gravesend & Northfleet? 🤔
'Many wasted sandwiches'. The only meaningful result of the late cancellation of any meeting I've ever attended.
From my memory at the time, escalators were the problem. At the time, there were only so many new escalators to go round and London Transport had the choice to open either the Jubilee Line or the Heathrow extension , and rightly chose the latter, which opened in 1977.
The jubilee line just shadowed the Bakerloo line at the time, whereas the Heathrow extension was transformative. Before, passengers had the schlep their luggage up stairs and onto the A1 bus in the forecourt.
Did you mean to make that pun?
@@Tina-nw9ro no, but I’ll take the credit anyway!
I can never see name Jubilee without remembering how my youngest daughter, only about 5 years old at the time, read the signs as Jubbly - lovely jubbly
I feel sorry for the poor lass born in 1977, whose mother named her "Juby" !!
@@ianmcclavin I recall that there was a young girl at the time who named her new (transplanted) kidney "Juberly".
@@Tevildo Nothing would surprise me anymore!!
My name for it is the Jumbly Line.
@@ianmcclavin hahaha ... was their surname Lee ?
Having been offline for a few weeks, what better way to get “back in the game”, than with one of your info and dry humor packed videos 😉
Will the Elizabeth line be renamed back to CrossRail? Probably not, but it would make its (unique) role much more obvious. Then Thameslink can be renamed Crossrail 2, saving billions, and perhaps resulting in a rationalisation of its routes. At Horsham yesterday- no one getting on the Thameslink (12-car train) to Peterborough, to anywhere, and certainly not Peterborough!
@@apuldram There's a project named Crossrail 2 from Chealsea to Hackney
@@chenyeanmingtakumi9033 not sure it’s quite the imperative it was….🤔. But rebranding THAMESLINK and reducing its geographical scope might clarify things a bit?
@@apuldram Looking at the map, if it makes sense to call the Elizabeth Line Crossrail, shouldn't Thameslink be renamed to Uprail or Downrail ?
@@hb1338 it’s Crossrail not Siderail. You can go across (a circle/complex shape) in any direction relative to the compass and/or gravity.
Everyone's praising the "jaws of de Fleet" pun, and rightly so, but I just want to take a moment and point with a knowing smile at "Cutler very obviously had the knives out for them."
7:49 I'm guessing Jago wrote that line at 3 a.m. after having been working for 18 hours.
I’m pretty sure the Bakerloo line wasn’t named after a company but was named so because it originally went between Baker St. and Waterloo
And also Hammersmith & City because it was created in 1990…
Its original title was The Baker Street & Waterloo Railway. However the Hammersmith and City name was new - that was previously just a branch of the Metropolitan Railway.
If they extended the Hammersmith & City Line all the way to Upminster they could call it the Hamster Line.
@@FranekWich In fact the name Hammersmith and City was resurrected from that of the Hammersmith and City Railway, a joint GWR-Metropolitan subsidiary that had actually built the line from Paddington to Hammersmith (I mean, the one via Westbourne Park etc.) back in the day, but then just gradually got absorbed into the Met. Therefore technically the H&C line really is named after the company that built [part of] it.
"Snatched victory from the jaws of da fleet". Brilliant. Your videos are always worth waiting for.
"Cutler, very obviously had the knives out for them..." (03:28) Like it, Mr Hazzard, that made me laugh. Nice one.
The only things I liked about 1977, were Punk, 'Star Wars', and 'Close Encounters Of The Third Kind'. Oh, and two ice lollies made for the Jubilee, by Lyons Maid and Walls. Never really 'got' the whole idea about royalty, myself.
"Cutler had the cutlery out for them" - fixed it for you
The best thing about 1977 was England regaining the Ashes.
@@simongleaden2864 - Forgot about that. Sorry.
And not forgetting the band Caravan's 2nd album
@@andyyu5957 An edgy comment
I dated the niece of Horace Cutler. She never really spoke highly of him! Horace's father built many of the 30's style housing in "Metro-land". All that identikit housing in Edgware, Kingsbury and Rayners Lane? Cutler housing.
Jubilee is a great name. I remember going to London in the early seventies and shocked by the state of the tube. No investment. Dreadful stations. Extremely dirty. I remember reading in the 1990’s it would take fifty years to modernise it and bring up to scratch. I remember in 1986 I travelled on the Underground and two day’s later on the Tokyo Metro. It was like comparing a tent to a mansion. I have been so happy to see the Underground improve over this century.
Mostly down to Labour investment , locally and nationally
Sadly the statement about things being dirty is borne out by the Kings Cross fire of 1987 caused by accumulation of grease and rubbish. That gave an incentive to do a big clean-up job. Nobody had truly realised how dangerous it could be, although there were a couple of small warning fires in previous years.
@RODRIGUEZ SANCHEZ But actually the gradual accumulation of tunnel dirt, soot, dust and other fine combustible materials was a key factor. People had been dropping cigarette ends for decades but as long as things were kept reasonably clean it didn't matter. Grease on it's own won't burn at all easily, nor will solid wooden slats, but if you get a fire because lots of other combustible stuff is around and it gets up to a high temperature, lots of unexpected things will burn suddenly. The other horrible example of that era was the Bradford City stadium fire of 1985, where again once the fire took hold, it spread with terrifying speed. Good housekeeping matters. In 2008 a US explosion razed a factory to the ground after dust became airborne. The material? Sugar. Likewise flour and grain silos regularly go bang.
@RODRIGUEZ SANCHEZ I do hope that you do not mean your comments seriously.
@@iankemp1131 1970s Admiralty : aluminium ships don't burn. 1982 : They do if you spill a tank full of missile fuel on them and then fire the detonator on the missile.
9 minute build up to that punch line. Worth every minute.
On my first visit to Britain, in 1977, the Fleet line was news. On later visits, I wondered what happened to it, and found out. Thanks, as ever, for another great video.
I was born in 1964 and just missed hearing about it,somehow. I heard the name Horace Cutler from my Dad talking about something to do with London politics,but other than the fact that he was GLC leader in the 70s knew little else about him or what he looked like until watching this. By the time I came in,he'd been succeeded as GLC leader by "Red" (as the right wing papers always dubbed him) Ken Livingstone.
"fleeting event" Love it. Good job Jago.
Score!
My first March Break trip was to London in 1977 with my school, I didn't realise it coincided with the Silver Jubilee year, maybe this is the reason we heard the authorities were relocating the homeless.
I do remember as a child seeing new metal maps on the Northern Line platforms with the interchanges for the Fleet Line marked - including an indication for one at Bank which was where it would have crossed the Bank branch. They had to rivet corrections over the top!
… also I remember the slogan on stickers campaigning against the change: “Don’t Jubilee’ve It!”
I’ve more! London Underground uses LCS codes (Location Coding System) to identify track and structures on its railway. Codes for structures on the Northern Line start with N, for the Central line they start with C etc. As I remember, the original Baker Street to Charing Cross structures all have a LCS code beginning with F, for Fleet Line, these codes are still used heavily today. On the extension to Stratford which came later they begin with J.
By 1977 this F code was on so many engineering drawings that it was impossible to change.
Regarding the renaming from Fleet to Jubilee, I moved to London in 1983 and I regularly saw the line diagrams on some Circle Line trains with an interchange at Baker Street to the Fleet Line, at least 4 years after the Jubilee Line had opened. I wish I'd taken a photo now.
Cutler had the knives out.
They do that, don't they? 😀
You’re very sharp.
@@dangerousandy LOL
@@grahamstubbs4962 a pointed comment, there.
Thank you. I hadn't spotted that one.
Forks too!
At the time of the renaming shenanigans I was a young teenager and something of a Tube geek. I have a memory (or perhaps a dream?) that there was a an informal campaign against altering the name from Fleet which went along the lines(!) of "Don't Jubelivee it". It did have a certain ring to it, and I quickly subscribed to the notion. Does anyone else recall this, or am I making it up? I honestly don't know.
On another matter; do Tube maps with the proposed Fleet line visible as under construction have any great value given what transpired? I don't own one, but am just wondering.
10/10 use of the phrase "absolute madlad".
"Cutler get his knives out" ... pun intended?
I think it was intended.
"Cutler had the knives out", yes very good Jago. Your coat is waiting by the door.
I was in London in the spring of 1977 as a teenager; I remember the tube map listing the Fleet line as under-construction. By the way, I remember the jubilee madness; in my box of childhood memories, I still have a bus ticket, from those machines that held a roll of paper and the conductor would rotate a handle and issue a ticket of the appropriate value, and the reverse of the ticket had a jubilee theme! The next spring we went to London again on vacation, and it had been renamed to Jubilee. It was still under construction, of course. At the time, I had assumed that the name change made sense, it's good to finally find out about the exact politics that led to it. I can just imagine Sir Humphrey arguing for *and* against the name change :)
Thanks for your hard work, wit and humor. I appreciate your efforts.
Am I the only person who when seeing you with a new video drops everything they are doing to make sure they see the new video?
I do
Another great video! I also you on the podcast…you were great!
theres a place in london called jubilee park, but london wouldnt really notice it anyways
I remember the campaign stickers inside the cars which read "Fleet Line? Don't Jubilee've it."
Jaws of de-FLEET! (chuckle chortle) Love your sense of humour Jago, I really do!
Ooof!!. Victory from.the jaws of de fleet.
That was dreadful. Lol.
But good video as always, so you are ( nearly) forgiven.
And saying the knives were out with Mr Cutler...I see what you did there.
Always wondered why there isn't a route along the Strand. Same annoyance from Knightsbridge straight west. Stations:
- Royal Albert Hall (Change for Museums and Embassy sieges.)
- High St. Ken (District & Circle)
- Holland Park South (for Earl's Crt Rd, Design Museum)
- Kensington Olympia (Overground)
- Brook Green
- Hammersmith (re-join the Picc. westbound.)
Obviously the Piccadilly Line, with an additional route option, like the Northern at Camden Town.
At the time many Fleet line adverts were grafitied with the words " Fleet Line , dont you Jubilee've it !"
To further muddy the waters.... Horace Cutler entered local government in 1952 when he was elected as a councillor to Harrow Council. 1977, following the Tory GLC election win under his leadership, marked HIS silver jubilee in local government. This, rather than the minor matter of the Queen's accession to the throne, is the real reason for re-naming the Fleet Line as the Jubilee Line.
A conservative London leader who wastes money on self aggrandising projects that mean eff all? That sounds familiar
"...from the jaws of de-fleet." We need someone to collect all of these Jago-isms.
Hello, Jago.
I cannot recall if you ever picked up on the trial tunnel that was built in south east london for the fleet line in the 70’s.
The tunnel was only a few hundred metres long and was built with a bentonite shield, which was a new type of tunnelling machine at that time?
"A fleeting event". I love you.
The video would have been longer, but you know... time is fleeting.
I loved the "da fleet" joke BTW :D
What a midweek treat, superb as ever jago.
GREAT, LIGHT HEARTED, AND GOOD HISTORY AND GEOGRAPHY LESSONS.
Thank you once again . excelent use of such imaginative puns . I can hardly breathe!!!
DaFleat. Dropped my coffee.... Thanks , Jago!
There was originally going to be a station at St Catherine's Dock.
Video on Ezra Street in Bethnal Green possible in the future? Looks like a street straight out the 50s
Lord forbid we name anything after anyone but the current sovereign. Heck, even Meghan's new baby is Lillibet.
fascinating story I loved it, especially the occasional poke at the politicos of the day
I know this video is almost 2 years old, but I have to say watching it today and hearing your comment at 5:05 gave me a laugh. I just read an article about how TfL will be allocating £4 million to naming the 6 Overground lines. Speaking of, is there any chance you could do a history of the Overground and how the line came to be (assuming you haven't done one already!)?
Truly painful pun at the end. 😆
If you're going to talk about time travel, I hope Geoff Marshall does a video on how you can save a quid by travelling to the Renaissance via the Neolithic.
Snatching victory from the claws of de fleet... Oh dear - a new low on the Tony Blackburn Book of Jokes-o-meter!
Another brilliant episode .
Maybe the Jubilee Line should of been called Millennium Line. As I was thinking of the Millennium Line. And it could of been extended to London City Airport from North Greenwich.
I must say that I was underwhelmed by the special announcement (although that’s really down to RUclips revealing the surprise a few days ago). I was so hoping for a guest appearance by Michael Portillo carrying that out of date book.
Cutler and Portillo attended the same school.....i.e. mine!
I like the name Fleet line. I love your sense of humour Jago.
Always a pleasure to see these videos.
Cutler had the knives out 🙈 😂
I have to say this does sound alarmingly similar to Crossrail/the Elizabeth Line. They both were:
- delayed so much they stopped advertising an opening date.
- renamed after the queen at the last minute meaning a whole bunch of signs had to be replaced.
- criticised for their cost.
Crossrail wasn't renamed the Elizabeth Line. Crossrail is a service and the Elizabeth Line is a line it uses. Like London Underground and the Jubilee Line.
@@rosiefay7283 I tend to agree, but it was originally going to be branded as Crossrail before they decided to 'rebrand' it. They have since had to rip out a load of signs which said 'Crossrail' and replacing them with signs that say 'Elizabeth Line'.
@@rosiefay7283 Elizabeth Line is the service, and the line (and the mode, and the operator - they were a bit exuberant in the renaming) - Crossrail is just the project that built it.
I'm still calling it CrossLizPurp like Geoff Marshall. 🙂
@@Casey-Jones didn't know there was a specific date, I just heard they were aiming for early 2022
Soooooooo there's another place I can listen to Jago and others talking ( I imagine) both reverently and irrelevantly about trains. Well that's an hour or two of this week accounted for.
I find the reasoning behind the history of the underground very interesting and to see the sustem we have now thank you
The ending of this video reminds me of the ending of one of the episodes of Peabody's Improbable History on The Rocky & Bullwinkle Show. Ouch! :)
Sadiq Khan makes Horace Cutler look like a model of paragon of virtue.
I seem to remember there being lots of silver disks placed around London to reflect where the Queen had visited in 77 - I know there’s one at Tower Hill - wonder how many others there are still
Just a thought that crossed my mind when watching your excellent video. Harlow Town Council have been talking about an extension to the Central Line to Harlow Town...and one of the comments I saw was that back in 1945/46, there was apparently an official proposal to extend the Central Line as far as Chelmsford. I was wondering if you'd heard of any such plan?
They snatched victory from the jaws of the Fleet ... Arrrrrrrrrgh
The best thing about this video is the noise of the 96 stock motors. Never remove it, TfL. Just get new stock with the exact same noise.
Great video.☺
I always thought the Bakerloo line was named after Baker Street and Waterloo?
Yeah, a contraction of "The Baker Street and Waterloo Railway"
6:47 Jago making his own play on the Top Gear "brown" argument 🤣
Jago, are you going to make a video on North Greenwich tube station's reserved extra platform for the jubilee line proposed thamesmead branch extension?
I remember that there was also opposition to the renaming from anti-monarchists, objecting to the reference to the queen. Some of them defaced Underground diagrams, changing Jubilee back to Fleet. I also remember seeing "Would jubilieve it?" scrawled on some of them.
As I once commented under Geoff's video »Don't call Crossrail the Elizabeth line« (here only as an excerpt):
"TfL […] could change the colour of the Crossrail system (maybe just slightly) and change the colour of the Underground Jubilee line into that violet/purple of the 'Elizabeth line'. Why? Because I think a grey tone may indicate a paused or otherwise out of service line. I know, it is supposed to be Silver for the same Jubilee, but…
Furthermore, after having recoloured the Jubilee line into that purple colour, maybe they'll come up with the great idea of naming it after Her Majesty herself - the Elizabeth line. An Underground line. Formerly known as the Jubilee line. And all is (or are) well again. How about that?"
But that was back in 2017…
Feel free to (try and) find my completely original comment under said video. :)
That was a fleeting chance you took with that pun at the end!
The fleet line's colour is actually silver because it started during Lizzie Battenberg's Silver Jubilee year (1977), geddit?
Another excellent video, not sure if I am impressed or disgusted with all the puns in this but don't stop doing them! Thanks again.
I almost spat out my tea when you said that "London Transport snatched victory from the jaws of de-Fleet." That was just perfect.
Hi Jago. What a terrible pun - way to go! What was the announcement - the podcast?
I suppose the jubilee line being grey still works as it opened for the silver jubilee. We don’t have metallic colours on the map so it seems fitting to me.
But it didn't open for the Jubilee. Should have been called the Jubilee Plus Two line.
defleat was such an awful pun that it only made me love you more Jago
Cutler, Chapman and Bennett. The 1970’s version of Wilson, Keppel and Betty!
Damn Jago, you were in fine form when scripting thus video 😎👌👍
It's about time someone solved the Fenchurch St station connection problem. I use this station frequently and getting to/from it is a real misery.
This mainline station is always seems to be forgotten about everytime.
The original route of the Fleet Line was better than the later Jubilee line as it served places like Fenchurch Street station and Ludgate Hill not served directly by tube or underground stations. The more direct route eastward would have benefitted commuters travelling from the new residential developments in Docklands too.The diversion south of the Thames to serve Waterloo station and then on to Canary Wharf was all about encouraging companies to move to Canary Wharf by providing a direct link from Waterloo station where trains from the up-market Surrey suburbs terminated. The Thatcher government was also more likely to fund a project that benefitted commerce than one that benefitted commuters The change of route also wasted the existing Charing Cross station on the Jubilee Line which closed after only a short existence as it was constructed as a temporary terminus with provision to serve through tracks going east not south at a later date.
What would have been a more appropriate name for the line then relating to where it did go in the end?
Millennium line?
This was not the only expensive politica renaming. The Central Electricity G enerating Board were building a pumped storage scheme in North Wales. It was named after the local quary Dinorwic . Now Dinorwic is the Anglicised name. The local Welsh name is Dinorwig. Halfway through construction it was decided to rename the site to Dinorwig. Every drawung, every switch label the switching WALL diagram AND LOADING DIAGRAM in NW HQ AND NATIONAL CONTRO;L and all the software simulation programmes had the C changed for a G
Now that we're in 2022, do we have to start calling the grey colour of the Jubilee line "platinum"...?
When I was working up in London and I was there for the Queens jubilee, I thought that the jubilee line was made for the Queens jubilee festival to commemorate her silver jubilee.
"Cutler had the knives out for them:....naturally.
That was one heck of a shaggy dog story to get to that pun. Only two things would make it better (worse?): A moose and a squirrel.
Could you do a video about Victoria Coach Station? I know it's not Tube or even trains, but it's an impressive listed Art Deco building.
Good old Jago making me groan again with a rubbish pun at the end of the video. If only TfL were so reliable.
Glad to see that you keep managing to slip in that pic of the front of Fenchurch Street, a station that for many, is unheard of.
I only know of the station because a character in a Douglas Adams novel was called Fenchurch. She was named after the place where she was conceived. Her parents explained that they were stuck for hours in an especially long line to buy train tickets and they got bored.
@@Dave_Sisson Exactly, that's also my (only) connection with this station :-D
@@Dave_Sisson I used to work on that line and my late wife worked in the ticket office. Many don't even know that the line exists. The Station frontage is much as it has always been, unlike most others.
@@Dave_Sisson We had a couple of guniea pigs , the were dark brown like some of the railway classes of the SECR, we called them Sutton and Fenchurch .
Stopped Advertising the opening date! Where e have I heard that before, now let me think! Silver and purple
Highbury and Islington Victoria Line enamel platform signs showed Green Park as a Fleet Line interchange in the 1980s