Play Doom Delta and show DrPyspy some love for their amazing work on it: www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/92698-1312024-doom-delta-v301-new-weapon-and-more/ And let me know if you like this type of format, because I've got a couple other games I'd like to take a look at. Also, I didn't touch up on concepts like the hub world system (must have glossed over that), but I guess they ended up realizing that in Hexen. Which is another game you can play if you like that particular bit of the Doom Bible :P
I think doom delta is limited by using the retail maps as a base. It's trying to fit the gameplay of one game and slapping a campaign not built for it over top. Personally, I think doom delta provides a significant enhancement over the original, despite this handicap.
Tom Hall was definitely a visionary. He and Adrian Carmak are the reason the original doom games have such a strong aesthetic. And I wish he was allowed to do more story stuff.
He had some overcomplicated ideas for sure, but the others were going way too far in the opposite direction - Romero for the sake of simple gameplay, Carmack for the sake of simple engine. Apparently, both the secrets in Wolf3D and Doom, and teleporters in Doom, are only there due to Tom Hall's insistence! He even did the teleporter textures for it. I also recall Sandy Petersen mentioning once that Romero and others also considered leaving out the shotgun at some point... because the players might find it too gimmicky and annoying when a gun doesn't shoot fast, or something like that.
Same. Imagine if Doom had had all great gameplay, aesthetics, music, AND a great story to go along with it? Oh my god. (Even if i do like the story we ended up with due to how mysterious it is.)
Tom didn't do much "aesthetically" he did most levels with 1 or 2 textures because they hadn't even done textures yet. Plus Sandy and John Romero had to finish what he started.
@@Scypek Carmack … “simple” engine? Also, DooM became big for its fast paced action and no stop gameplay… adding other things and probably the game would not be that successful…
The “stolen super weapon now attached to a techno-demon” was definitely reused for Sabaoth in Doom 3, although funny enough that enemy also had parts cut. Originally, Sarge didn’t become Sabaoth, they were two different entities. Sarge steals the BFG and gets crucified to the demon Sabaoth! For having most of his contributions cut from the original game, it’s remarkable how much influence Tom Hall has had on the franchise over the years!
Yeah, kind of a kick in the face for Tom Hall, to be honest. Got told his ideas for the game sucked and basically got bullied off of id by John Carmack, who then ended up putting a lot of them in Doom 3 anyway. Like, damn dude.
Not having a singular Doom Guy or Slayer feels so weird, like he's the literal face of the franchise. And as you pointed out, that would totally change the story of future games. Also, having the tutorial character die feels strangely modern, like I think a modern FPS would totally do that for shock value. I think setting it on Mars instead of a fictional moon also heightens the tension a bit because It's so close to Earth, so the danger of the invasion spilling over to Earth is a lot more real than if it's at the self-described butt-end of space.
Yeah, I feel like setting it on a fictional moon that may be hundreds of light years away from that galaxy's Earth makes everything feel less impactful. Like, why even care about cleaning anything up or stopping portals? It's a random stupid rock in space, just nuke it. Everyone besides the main 4-5 characters is dead anyway.
Yeah, you can tell how much of that carried over into Hexen. The multiple playable characters, the light RPG elements, certain enemies, the hub world, an emphasis on story... But while that game definitely has its upsides, it's not for everyone, and if Doom had been like that, I don't think it'd have been as popular as it is now.
It kinda sounds like Tom Hall had some stuff stuck in his head which he couldn't quite get out properly when he was drafting the story. Like, he wrote down the idea and it made sense in the moment or when he read it, but it just ended up a bit confusing since half the idea was in his head.
I mean yeah, it's a draft. Of course it's unfinished, and I am in no way seriously criticizing him for not finishing an 80-page script that ended up getting scrapped anyway :P Still, the story was far too long and convoluted.
While the Doom bible's ideas were interesting, I really question whether or not it would have resulted in a commercially viable product given the team. There were no shortage of plodding dungeon crawlers on the market at the time delivering a punchy shooter broke the mold. Doom's clean and concise design is part of what made it so iconic and part of why it has lasted so long.
The Chaos Sphere sounds exactly like the Crystals of Madness from DUSK, cool to see two devs of similar games come to the same idea decades apart (unless that isn't a coincidence and David Szymanski really took that idea out of Tom Hall's book)
Which, incidentally, also has a hub world (that I didn't mention in the video). I love how so many Doom engine games repurpose ideas from the Bible, like Heretic and Hexen.
Also, I know an example of something that was scrapped that became used. In the Sonic Bible, there was scrapped lore for Sonic The Hedgehog. It is said that Sonic was born in Nebraska or Wisconsin, one of the two, anyways it is said that he was a brown anthropomorphic hedgehog, one day he met a scientist called Ovi Kintobor, he wanted to find the Chaos Emeralds so that he can benefit others in need. He gave Sonic speed shoes which allows him to go supersonic speed, this lead Sonic to break the sound barrier causing a sonic boom, this lead to Sonic to become blue in color, one day an accident happened with his scientist friend, Ovi Kintobor had an accident involving his experiments, due to this Ovi Kintobor has disappeared from existence, but from that disaster, Sonic's arch-nemesis is born, Ivo Robotnik(basically Ovi Kintobor backwards). This entire story was used in Sonic The Comic by Fleetway Comics(UK version of Archie Comics)to explain Sonic and Robotnik's origins, and yes they're the same guys who created the sadistic Super Sonic that became popular by Friday Night Funkin. Also, the name Ivo Robotnik was used as the villain's name in the US/Europe Sonic manual, while the Japanese release of the game refers the villain as エッグマン(Eggman). The same US Sonic manual refers the fact that Sonic is fast due to his shoes. The reason why Eggman was called Robotnik in the West is due to the fact that the 80s/90s changed the names of characters and things to please such audience, like how the villain King Koopa was called Bowser in the West, or how Rockman was renamed to MegaMan, and a lot more. That's until Sonic Adventure came out, which announces both names as canon, with Ivo Robotnik being the Sonic villain's real name, while "Eggman" is his nickname.
Doesn't surprise me that other pieces of media like the comics made use of scrapped ideas. According to some other commenters, the Doom novels also reused many of the Doom Bible's ideas.
I suppose that one reason why the bible is hard to read through at times is because Tom had a tonne of ideas that he didn't simply convey onto the paper. He probably was coming up with the ideas on the fly, planning to refine them as the development progressed, so it's pretty much just a very early draft of what was to become at the end.
Yeah, and it was also unfinished and revised several times. My main issue was more with the amount of everything, with six episodes that had their own enemies and weapons and items and tons of level detail. For 1993, that was impossible :P Sorry, Tom.
@@GermanPeter Yeah, it felt rather overambitious for its own good. Six episodes already feel quite excessive. I think that Tom might've been trying to have a repeat success on Wolfenstein 3D, "we had six episodes there, with newer tech perhaps we can squeeze in more than just the episodes." Seems that for a short while, his ideas were considered for implementation. For example, one of the images in the Romero's beta files is that of a flying space craft over a pile of debris and skulls, probably a remnant of cinematic cutscenes.
TL DR: I am a nasty charecter enjoyer who adores having many charecters in games I would perfer it the same way I perfer to make my own hud faces for doom, any mapset I play with mods, I make up a new little marine to play as because to be honest, doomkid's map OCs are just incredibly cool to me, and even tho I have not released any map yet, I am planning to and when it does, I will credit the doomkid in inspirying me to make up silly doom faces for my map pack because I find they add so much recognizability and personality to a map set, but know why it isn't done a lot of the time.
I always felt like conceptually, Doom 3 was closer to what Tom Hall's vision of the original Doom was. Albeit technologically more advanced. Still, what we see in the Alpha builds is an intriguing insight into a very different type of game. More realistic environment elements such a locker rooms and more sprawling level hint at a game emphsizing exploration, things such as "The Captain's Hand" and "Heart Of Lothar" being in an implied inventory give us some idea of a game with more puzzle elements, the presence of NPC 'buddies' suggests an active in-game storyline, and the Alpha version of the level that eventually became Spawning Vats looks like it had some kind of tracks suggesting a monorail system or some other way to traverse that could indicate a hub based design and the ability to hop backwards and forwards across the game map at will. ALL of this is more ambitious than the eventual game that we got. While it isn't surprising that all of this got scaled back, it's interesting to note how much of it seems to have been revived when it came time to create Hexen: Beyond Heretic. (And to some extent Quake 2 and Doom 3).
Romero probably did had some of Hall’s work in the back if his mind still while at Raven but I think a lot of the ideas in m Hexen emerged because they wanted to create downscaled versions of certain ideas from RPG’s that’d fit in the FPS setting also, there’s a mod in the works named simply Doom: Evil Unleashed that seeks to recreate that sort of structure. the lil bits the creator outlined on the doomworld thread seem real promising
I do find it quite ironic that Doom 3, a game John Carmack has put a lot of work into, has actually brought many of Tom Hall's ideas from the Doom Bible to life - be it the story structure, realistic environments or larger focus on the characters and plot.
The so-called "Bruiser Brothers" (the twin Barons Of Hell) was an oblique reference to Super Mario Bros. The name obviously implies SMB, but also the bosses were inspired by the Hammer Brother enemies in SMB, that often appear in pairs. Fun facts to know and tell!
Hilariously despite the Doom Bible having a lot of fluff; the most important feature that could've been done was the interconnected hub map system. By the time Doom II was released, there was Super Metroid and System Shock that also featured interconnected hub maps with deep map progression designs (though the latter is more linear than the former) So in a way Tom Hall was vindicated by history. Also the Doom Bible mentions Fire Dust being harvested from the Tei Tenga Anomaly as an implied "super resource" (like Oil) coming from Hell which would later become Argent Energy in Doom 2016/Eternal.
If you ever wanted multiple playable characters for Doom, there's always Doom Roguelike Arsenal (including the CMM addon). On top of weapon proficiencies like dealing more damage or having weaker downsides with certain weapons, different characters also have large bonus perks such as powerups lasting longer, starting the game with a map, or maybe even having exclusive abilities like the "bunker" class having a cell-powered shield that goes alongside your chaingun/minigun.
There allways Something interesting to me about cancelled stuff in games, specially on games that i love in like Doom and HL2, It Really make me Wonder How different It would be If It happend, for the best and the worse
Interesting movie :D As for Carmack's opinion regarding the plot, there is some truth in it, but the fact that a community has formed, around the attempt to unite the threads from Doom, also proves that in stories, even so simple, we like to add something to ourselves or find something. Here, the answer (though I don't know if it was plot-optimal) was Doom Eternal, which I think went a bit overboard. But to the point, it seems to me that the plot and the motivation of the protagonist, why he murders hordes of creatures is so important that it does not present the gameplay from the level of simple murdering “because so”. Hence the monsters from hell, because we can agree that bloodthirsty beasts motivated by bloodlust are dangerous to us and we need to get rid of them for our own good, which can be a good basis for the hero's motivation. Nonetheless, it's nice to know where, why, why and how, because it turns us on (or at least it does to me), what story someone wanted to tell, also to sum up Carmack and company created one of the greatest works of current pop culture with the assumption that it's supposed to be simple murder, but despite the “simple” gameplay we're eager to find out “why” because maybe “gory” is a “story” after all. Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Gotta agree with your summary on Carmack's views on stories in a video game. I love Doom and had wished it had more lore ever since i was a kid, and i loved 2016’s lore and seamlessly fell perfectly right after 64. But Eternal's lore was overly ambitious (while also somehow feeling lack luster) and just muddled plot of not just the original games, but even its own game. It sucks because i wanted Doom lore for so long only for it to put a bad taste in my mouth.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking of the other day too! 2016 was short and concise, but still managed to have lengthy cutscenes that establish plot I'm not there for. Whatever, it's fine, they're few and far between. But then in Eternal, it just BOMBARDS you with cutscenes and lore and plot and I just got so tired after the first one. I'm here to SHOOT. I don't CARE about who I'm fighting or whatever. Perfect example of story and gameplay not going hand-in-hand, in my opinion. They may explain the 10.000-year old lore of the planet you're going to and why you're there and what McGuffin you're trying to find, but then you're just let loose until the end anyway. You could have skipped the cutscene before and after and it wouldn't have made a difference. So yeah, id was right to cut out all that. I mean, Hall wanted cutscenes, too. At the start of an episode, sure, but throughout? Hmmm.
Which makes sense, considering how games at the time have little to no lore. Like Pong and Tetris, they're just simple puzzle games, with no lore, but it's fun. Next would be Donkey Kong arcade where Jumpman/Mario fell in love with The Lady/Pauline, then Donkey Kong, a giant ape kidnapped Pauline, leaving Mario to go after him. Then, as time goes on, games start to develop their own lore, making it more complex than the previous one. Like in the Legend of Zelda, Ganon has the Triforce of Power and uses it to conquer Hyrule, Zelda who possessed the Triforce of Wisdom split into 8 pieces and placed them 1 piece into every dungeon each, and told Impa, her nurse, to look for help, Impa was ambushed by monsters, only to be rescued by a 12-year-old boy named Link, then Impa tells Link his quest on rescuing Zelda. Nintendo made Zelda not mainly for lore, but for fun. In Zelda 2: Adventure of Link, the lore expands. It was Link's 16th birthday. The back of his hand was glowing, and Impa took him to the Northern Palace, where he meets a sleeping Zelda, that Zelda was the ancestor of the Zelda that Link rescued 4 years ago. Impa explained that Zelda's father, the King of Hyrule, was getting older, so by his command he built 6 different palaces which are responsible for making a barrier that protects the Great Palace. In the Great Palace, the King stored the Triforce of Courage there to avoid it from falling into the wrong hands. Before his death, the king told Zelda not to give away the location of the Triforce of Courage to his younger brother, the prince of Hyrule. After the king's death, the prince of Hyrule demanded Zelda to surrender the location of the missing Triforce piece, but Zelda refused. So, the prince got bitter, and he hired a magician to put a curse on Zelda, if she refused again, which she did, so the magician used all of his powers to cast a spell which left Zelda on an eternal slumber, the magician died, since the spell he cast was too strong. The prince of Hyrule felt regret and sorrow, that he no longer wants the Triforce piece, so for everyone to remember that tragedy, every female member of the royal family must be named Zelda, 100 years have passed which gives Link a chance to wake up Zelda, so Impa gave the crystals to Link to place on every palace pedestal to unlock the Great Palace, and get the Triforce of Courage, whilst Link is on his merry way, Ganon's minions are after Link because according to prophecy, if the hero's blood is sprinkled into Ganon's ashes, Ganon will come back to life.
Yeah, I figured. I don't like the quote either. But he's got a point - a game needs to know what it wants to be about. Does it want to be about the story, or the gameplay? If it's the former, then the gameplay is likely going to be less well thought-out. If it's the latter, then the story will be less complex. Both are equally fine, but for Doom, it was important that the gameplay worked. If the game had been kinda fine but limited and the story had been great, I don't think Doom would have been the cult hit it ended up being.
@@GermanPeter I don't see why anyone should be chosing here. Best games have as much as they can from all departments, even old games tried to do so as early as mid 90s. Doom is still a product of its time, tho, when a lot of entertainment products (not only games) were shallow, but quoting Carmak today is non-sensical, as if celebrating the lack of something that is not inherently tied to technological limits of its time. TLDR: That "it doesn't need story" sentence is still out of touch, a good story doesn't need to sacrifice gameplay and vice-versa.
The thing was that Tom Hall mainly focused on the story and world of the games, often neglecting gameplay. His early levels are very claustrophobic, and while looking great, don't play so well. They don't utilize Doom's features to their fullest potential, unfortunately. If that had been the direction the game had taken, then I don't think it'd have exploded in popularity so hard. Doom's final levels aren't perfect, but they're fun to play through. The game needed fast-paced action. That's all I meant by that.
I love how Peter says the cut content from the Doom bible turned into a game that wasn't Rise of the Triad yet it also did kinda become Rise of the Triad as well.
im not sure why, but this bible feels very... random. it feels connected more like an rpg than an fps. it is very interesting to read about, and play lol. thank you for covering this :D
Doom Delta looks great, maybe I'll try this out one day. Still, I'd like to run such a mod in DOS, if someone could make DOS files that fully correspond to GZDoom.
Doomguy will always be Flynn 'Fly' Taggart to me. Interesting that the novels didn't include much of the bible material although IIRC they both describe each level as being 'under' the one before unlike the game. I'd love live to hear your take on the novels BTW. The first one at least is very true to the game.
I feel like how I prefer the Doom we got instead of the Doom Bible. That being said, I feel like a spin-off game that follows the Doom Bible might be fun. Sometimes I do wonder if the Doom Bible would have worked better as a different type of game than an FPS. Either an SRPG, Dungeon Crawler or a Rainbow Six Styled Tactical FPS.
Well, I guess you can look at Hexen. Takes a lot of the same concepts, but puts them in a more appropriate setting: a medieval fantasy one. Much slower gameplay in smaller levels connected by hubworlds works brilliantly with Hall's ideas.
@@GermanPeterthat shield idea is something that would’ve worked beautifully in those games. you have a lot more projectiles coming at you in that game because nearly every enemy has one
Tom Hall was definitely not fit for a project like Doom. But let him loose on his own, like in RotT and CKeen; pure magic. It's why to this day, I still hope Bethesda and nu-idSoftware, at least let him have the Commander Keen IP back.
He could have absolutely flourished working on a game like Doom 3 or 2016/Eternal. Finally implementing all those old ideas in a modern setting and then expanding on them. Shame he got bullied from id :/
@@GermanPeter How he was practically singled out and casted off by the core team during Doom's development was heartbreaking. As heartbreaking as what happened to American McGee during the development of Quake II.
@@GermanPeter I simply pieced this from 'Masters of Doom' and Sandy Petersen; American McGee got into the team because of his work as a Doom mapper, and turned out very efficient and prudent at his job(from Doom II to Quake 1). Now, "someone" from the team(pretty much on the same hiring batch/generation as him) kind of had an issue with that. So this guy started doing two things during the development of Quake II; One, mouth off at the team head (which was John Carmack) about his "displeasure" at working at id(which wasn't true), and second, "this guy" started giving him intentionally bad "level design pointers", saying this would be the style of maps that the team would like(which predictably, got McGee into trouble instead). John Carmack's hierarchic, compartmentalized development group style(instead of the OG team's, flat structure) effectively isolated him, and pretty much everyone else from being able to have a good say at the team, and to have quick, and comprehensive input at the overall game design. It comes to a head when Carmack, one day, just fired him. As McGee later stated; to this day, he still have no idea what and why it happened(again, the "office politics" were covered in the book and by Petersen, McGee was just doing his job at being a level and game designer).
Oh yeah, I actually heard Sandy's side of the story. That really sucks. The guys were really good at making games, they were NOT good at working as a team however. Imagine what they could have accomplished if it weren't for all the infighting.
So you say "Episode 6", while the text says "Episode 5"... *Discrepancy detected.* *Contradicting Text.* *Subscription revoked.* *Glory to Arstotzka.* (I'm kidding I'm still subbed to you. It be stupid of me to leave due to a minor graphical error. This was a pretty good video nonetheless!)
I have to hard disagree with you about Doom’s story. A story would have helped me get invested in that game. Without it, playing it feels pointless because I don’t find the gameplay or level design fun enough to carry itself. One of my favorite Doom-derived games (Ashes 2063/Afterglow) is elevated by its story, and Doom could have been too. I haven’t read the Doom Bible, but as I understand it was a first draft, so I imagine with some tweaks and reworks it could have been something really good.
I don't deny it'd have made you connect with the game more, but Doom excels at gameplay. That's what people are there for. It's like with Mario games, you really only need an inciting incident as motivation and the rest of the game is basically just you having fun. I wouldn't have complained about more story at all, but it's not REQUIRED in my opinion.
Play Doom Delta and show DrPyspy some love for their amazing work on it: www.doomworld.com/forum/topic/92698-1312024-doom-delta-v301-new-weapon-and-more/
And let me know if you like this type of format, because I've got a couple other games I'd like to take a look at.
Also, I didn't touch up on concepts like the hub world system (must have glossed over that), but I guess they ended up realizing that in Hexen. Which is another game you can play if you like that particular bit of the Doom Bible :P
I think doom delta is limited by using the retail maps as a base. It's trying to fit the gameplay of one game and slapping a campaign not built for it over top.
Personally, I think doom delta provides a significant enhancement over the original, despite this handicap.
Tom Hall was definitely a visionary. He and Adrian Carmak are the reason the original doom games have such a strong aesthetic. And I wish he was allowed to do more story stuff.
He had some overcomplicated ideas for sure, but the others were going way too far in the opposite direction - Romero for the sake of simple gameplay, Carmack for the sake of simple engine. Apparently, both the secrets in Wolf3D and Doom, and teleporters in Doom, are only there due to Tom Hall's insistence! He even did the teleporter textures for it. I also recall Sandy Petersen mentioning once that Romero and others also considered leaving out the shotgun at some point... because the players might find it too gimmicky and annoying when a gun doesn't shoot fast, or something like that.
Same. Imagine if Doom had had all great gameplay, aesthetics, music, AND a great story to go along with it? Oh my god. (Even if i do like the story we ended up with due to how mysterious it is.)
Tom didn't do much "aesthetically" he did most levels with 1 or 2 textures because they hadn't even done textures yet. Plus Sandy and John Romero had to finish what he started.
@@Scypek
Carmack … “simple” engine?
Also, DooM became big for its fast paced action and no stop gameplay… adding other things and probably the game would not be that successful…
@doomlava222 he did most of the original character and enemy designs.
The “stolen super weapon now attached to a techno-demon” was definitely reused for Sabaoth in Doom 3, although funny enough that enemy also had parts cut. Originally, Sarge didn’t become Sabaoth, they were two different entities. Sarge steals the BFG and gets crucified to the demon Sabaoth!
For having most of his contributions cut from the original game, it’s remarkable how much influence Tom Hall has had on the franchise over the years!
Yeah, kind of a kick in the face for Tom Hall, to be honest. Got told his ideas for the game sucked and basically got bullied off of id by John Carmack, who then ended up putting a lot of them in Doom 3 anyway. Like, damn dude.
@@GermanPeter and then Ion Storm failed to really get off the ground
Not having a singular Doom Guy or Slayer feels so weird, like he's the literal face of the franchise.
And as you pointed out, that would totally change the story of future games. Also, having the tutorial character die feels strangely modern, like I think a modern FPS would totally do that for shock value.
I think setting it on Mars instead of a fictional moon also heightens the tension a bit because It's so close to Earth, so the danger of the invasion spilling over to Earth is a lot more real than if it's at the self-described butt-end of space.
Yeah, I feel like setting it on a fictional moon that may be hundreds of light years away from that galaxy's Earth makes everything feel less impactful. Like, why even care about cleaning anything up or stopping portals? It's a random stupid rock in space, just nuke it. Everyone besides the main 4-5 characters is dead anyway.
Fictional moon is crazy
@ShimmyFr They're talking about the Doom Bible, which takes place on Tei Tenga, a fictional moon.
You can really see the DnD influence in the Doom Bible. Before they streamlined the game to what it is now, it basically played like a light RPG.
Yeah, you can tell how much of that carried over into Hexen. The multiple playable characters, the light RPG elements, certain enemies, the hub world, an emphasis on story... But while that game definitely has its upsides, it's not for everyone, and if Doom had been like that, I don't think it'd have been as popular as it is now.
This was brought up in Masters of Doom, a big inspiration for many of the ID games was the DnD campaigns of the people who would eventually form ID
It kinda sounds like Tom Hall had some stuff stuck in his head which he couldn't quite get out properly when he was drafting the story. Like, he wrote down the idea and it made sense in the moment or when he read it, but it just ended up a bit confusing since half the idea was in his head.
I mean yeah, it's a draft. Of course it's unfinished, and I am in no way seriously criticizing him for not finishing an 80-page script that ended up getting scrapped anyway :P
Still, the story was far too long and convoluted.
While the Doom bible's ideas were interesting, I really question whether or not it would have resulted in a commercially viable product given the team. There were no shortage of plodding dungeon crawlers on the market at the time delivering a punchy shooter broke the mold. Doom's clean and concise design is part of what made it so iconic and part of why it has lasted so long.
WE'RE GONNA BE TALKIN ABOUT THE *insert unmaker shooting sfx here*
The location name "Tei Tenga" made it into another game worked on by Tom Hall: Terminal Velocity. It's the first planet of episode 2.
He really can't let go of his old ideas :D
The Chaos Sphere sounds exactly like the Crystals of Madness from DUSK, cool to see two devs of similar games come to the same idea decades apart (unless that isn't a coincidence and David Szymanski really took that idea out of Tom Hall's book)
Extermination Day IWAD deserves a shoutout as an implementation of "Doom if places were realistic" concept. It's awesome.
"The BFG 2704 would've actuallydamaged the player a bit" and THAT was repurposed for Strife! Haha
P.S. no, I dont think Id enjoy the doom bible more. Like you said, doom is great for its simplicity.
Which, incidentally, also has a hub world (that I didn't mention in the video).
I love how so many Doom engine games repurpose ideas from the Bible, like Heretic and Hexen.
@@GermanPeter it's both awesome and a showcase of how influential the game/bible was
Also, I know an example of something that was scrapped that became used. In the Sonic Bible, there was scrapped lore for Sonic The Hedgehog. It is said that Sonic was born in Nebraska or Wisconsin, one of the two, anyways it is said that he was a brown anthropomorphic hedgehog, one day he met a scientist called Ovi Kintobor, he wanted to find the Chaos Emeralds so that he can benefit others in need. He gave Sonic speed shoes which allows him to go supersonic speed, this lead Sonic to break the sound barrier causing a sonic boom, this lead to Sonic to become blue in color, one day an accident happened with his scientist friend, Ovi Kintobor had an accident involving his experiments, due to this Ovi Kintobor has disappeared from existence, but from that disaster, Sonic's arch-nemesis is born, Ivo Robotnik(basically Ovi Kintobor backwards). This entire story was used in Sonic The Comic by Fleetway Comics(UK version of Archie Comics)to explain Sonic and Robotnik's origins, and yes they're the same guys who created the sadistic Super Sonic that became popular by Friday Night Funkin. Also, the name Ivo Robotnik was used as the villain's name in the US/Europe Sonic manual, while the Japanese release of the game refers the villain as エッグマン(Eggman). The same US Sonic manual refers the fact that Sonic is fast due to his shoes. The reason why Eggman was called Robotnik in the West is due to the fact that the 80s/90s changed the names of characters and things to please such audience, like how the villain King Koopa was called Bowser in the West, or how Rockman was renamed to MegaMan, and a lot more. That's until Sonic Adventure came out, which announces both names as canon, with Ivo Robotnik being the Sonic villain's real name, while "Eggman" is his nickname.
Doesn't surprise me that other pieces of media like the comics made use of scrapped ideas. According to some other commenters, the Doom novels also reused many of the Doom Bible's ideas.
I suppose that one reason why the bible is hard to read through at times is because Tom had a tonne of ideas that he didn't simply convey onto the paper. He probably was coming up with the ideas on the fly, planning to refine them as the development progressed, so it's pretty much just a very early draft of what was to become at the end.
Yeah, and it was also unfinished and revised several times. My main issue was more with the amount of everything, with six episodes that had their own enemies and weapons and items and tons of level detail. For 1993, that was impossible :P Sorry, Tom.
@@GermanPeter Yeah, it felt rather overambitious for its own good. Six episodes already feel quite excessive. I think that Tom might've been trying to have a repeat success on Wolfenstein 3D, "we had six episodes there, with newer tech perhaps we can squeeze in more than just the episodes."
Seems that for a short while, his ideas were considered for implementation. For example, one of the images in the Romero's beta files is that of a flying space craft over a pile of debris and skulls, probably a remnant of cinematic cutscenes.
TL DR: I am a nasty charecter enjoyer who adores having many charecters in games
I would perfer it the same way I perfer to make my own hud faces for doom, any mapset I play with mods, I make up a new little marine to play as because to be honest, doomkid's map OCs are just incredibly cool to me, and even tho I have not released any map yet, I am planning to and when it does, I will credit the doomkid in inspirying me to make up silly doom faces for my map pack because I find they add so much recognizability and personality to a map set, but know why it isn't done a lot of the time.
4:42 I think what it’s trying to say is that the General Demon warps the area back to being un-corrupted. Still doesn’t make much sense.
There is always so much weird trivia surrounding classic games. Truly an interesting watch.
5:57 Never knew the General was Stone Cold; in fact, I never knew he existed.
we’re gonna be talking about THE DOOM BIBLE!
We're also gonna be talkin' about *THE "UNF!"*
Is that funny, Butt-End-Of-Space-Head?!
AND WE WILL DEFINITELY BE SPENDING A LOT OF TIME TALKING ABOUT BUBBIES MODE
THE REAR END OF OUTER SPACE!
When you finish Quake, I’d suggest you look into the original story for that game. It’s actually very interesting!
;)
I always felt like conceptually, Doom 3 was closer to what Tom Hall's vision of the original Doom was. Albeit technologically more advanced. Still, what we see in the Alpha builds is an intriguing insight into a very different type of game. More realistic environment elements such a locker rooms and more sprawling level hint at a game emphsizing exploration, things such as "The Captain's Hand" and "Heart Of Lothar" being in an implied inventory give us some idea of a game with more puzzle elements, the presence of NPC 'buddies' suggests an active in-game storyline, and the Alpha version of the level that eventually became Spawning Vats looks like it had some kind of tracks suggesting a monorail system or some other way to traverse that could indicate a hub based design and the ability to hop backwards and forwards across the game map at will. ALL of this is more ambitious than the eventual game that we got. While it isn't surprising that all of this got scaled back, it's interesting to note how much of it seems to have been revived when it came time to create Hexen: Beyond Heretic. (And to some extent Quake 2 and Doom 3).
Romero probably did had some of Hall’s work in the back if his mind still while at Raven but I think a lot of the ideas in m Hexen emerged because they wanted to create downscaled versions of certain ideas from RPG’s that’d fit in the FPS setting
also, there’s a mod in the works named simply Doom: Evil Unleashed that seeks to recreate that sort of structure. the lil bits the creator outlined on the doomworld thread seem real promising
Carmack has said 3 was also closer to his vision in terms of atmosphere
16:11 I’m sorry, John Carmack said what now?!
I do find it quite ironic that Doom 3, a game John Carmack has put a lot of work into, has actually brought many of Tom Hall's ideas from the Doom Bible to life - be it the story structure, realistic environments or larger focus on the characters and plot.
You know I hear ???? is actually one of the mooniest moons of the whole entire moonscape.
The so-called "Bruiser Brothers" (the twin Barons Of Hell) was an oblique reference to Super Mario Bros. The name obviously implies SMB, but also the bosses were inspired by the Hammer Brother enemies in SMB, that often appear in pairs. Fun facts to know and tell!
Hilariously despite the Doom Bible having a lot of fluff; the most important feature that could've been done was the interconnected hub map system. By the time Doom II was released, there was Super Metroid and System Shock that also featured interconnected hub maps with deep map progression designs (though the latter is more linear than the former) So in a way Tom Hall was vindicated by history.
Also the Doom Bible mentions Fire Dust being harvested from the Tei Tenga Anomaly as an implied "super resource" (like Oil) coming from Hell which would later become Argent Energy in Doom 2016/Eternal.
4:57 I think that's supposed to say episode 6 :3
no its supposed to say episode sechs
Ah, damnit. Knew this game was worse than Halo.
@@GermanPeter It is!
@@GermanPeter Short attention span? I gate it... es is' hoit daneben Tanga... :P
doom delta is like if doom was from a timeline slightly to the left of ours
I think what we got in the end was excellent. I do agree that Tom Hall's levels were very, very good.
the BFG damaged you?
that has to be a Romero doing
I mean, that is quite literally Tom Hall's idea...
DAIKATANA!!!!!!! **shakes fist at the sky**
If you ever wanted multiple playable characters for Doom, there's always Doom Roguelike Arsenal (including the CMM addon).
On top of weapon proficiencies like dealing more damage or having weaker downsides with certain weapons, different characters also have large bonus perks such as powerups lasting longer, starting the game with a map, or maybe even having exclusive abilities like the "bunker" class having a cell-powered shield that goes alongside your chaingun/minigun.
There allways Something interesting to me about cancelled stuff in games, specially on games that i love in like Doom and HL2, It Really make me Wonder How different It would be If It happend, for the best and the worse
Yea, hl2 needed more time the betas had so much more stuff that didn't make it to the final realse
Interesting movie :D
As for Carmack's opinion regarding the plot, there is some truth in it, but the fact that a community has formed, around the attempt to unite the threads from Doom, also proves that in stories, even so simple, we like to add something to ourselves or find something.
Here, the answer (though I don't know if it was plot-optimal) was Doom Eternal, which I think went a bit overboard.
But to the point, it seems to me that the plot and the motivation of the protagonist, why he murders hordes of creatures is so important that it does not present the gameplay from the level of simple murdering “because so”. Hence the monsters from hell, because we can agree that bloodthirsty beasts motivated by bloodlust are dangerous to us and we need to get rid of them for our own good, which can be a good basis for the hero's motivation.
Nonetheless, it's nice to know where, why, why and how, because it turns us on (or at least it does to me), what story someone wanted to tell, also to sum up Carmack and company created one of the greatest works of current pop culture with the assumption that it's supposed to be simple murder, but despite the “simple” gameplay we're eager to find out “why” because maybe “gory” is a “story” after all.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
1:53 "No cap, on god!" made me scream laugh, because a huge chunk of my friend group are zoomers and I suddenly had war flashbacks.
frfr???
Gotta agree with your summary on Carmack's views on stories in a video game.
I love Doom and had wished it had more lore ever since i was a kid, and i loved 2016’s lore and seamlessly fell perfectly right after 64.
But Eternal's lore was overly ambitious (while also somehow feeling lack luster) and just muddled plot of not just the original games, but even its own game. It sucks because i wanted Doom lore for so long only for it to put a bad taste in my mouth.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking of the other day too! 2016 was short and concise, but still managed to have lengthy cutscenes that establish plot I'm not there for. Whatever, it's fine, they're few and far between.
But then in Eternal, it just BOMBARDS you with cutscenes and lore and plot and I just got so tired after the first one. I'm here to SHOOT. I don't CARE about who I'm fighting or whatever. Perfect example of story and gameplay not going hand-in-hand, in my opinion. They may explain the 10.000-year old lore of the planet you're going to and why you're there and what McGuffin you're trying to find, but then you're just let loose until the end anyway. You could have skipped the cutscene before and after and it wouldn't have made a difference.
So yeah, id was right to cut out all that. I mean, Hall wanted cutscenes, too. At the start of an episode, sure, but throughout? Hmmm.
Which makes sense, considering how games at the time have little to no lore. Like Pong and Tetris, they're just simple puzzle games, with no lore, but it's fun. Next would be Donkey Kong arcade where Jumpman/Mario fell in love with The Lady/Pauline, then Donkey Kong, a giant ape kidnapped Pauline, leaving Mario to go after him. Then, as time goes on, games start to develop their own lore, making it more complex than the previous one. Like in the Legend of Zelda, Ganon has the Triforce of Power and uses it to conquer Hyrule, Zelda who possessed the Triforce of Wisdom split into 8 pieces and placed them 1 piece into every dungeon each, and told Impa, her nurse, to look for help, Impa was ambushed by monsters, only to be rescued by a 12-year-old boy named Link, then Impa tells Link his quest on rescuing Zelda. Nintendo made Zelda not mainly for lore, but for fun. In Zelda 2: Adventure of Link, the lore expands. It was Link's 16th birthday. The back of his hand was glowing, and Impa took him to the Northern Palace, where he meets a sleeping Zelda, that Zelda was the ancestor of the Zelda that Link rescued 4 years ago. Impa explained that Zelda's father, the King of Hyrule, was getting older, so by his command he built 6 different palaces which are responsible for making a barrier that protects the Great Palace. In the Great Palace, the King stored the Triforce of Courage there to avoid it from falling into the wrong hands. Before his death, the king told Zelda not to give away the location of the Triforce of Courage to his younger brother, the prince of Hyrule. After the king's death, the prince of Hyrule demanded Zelda to surrender the location of the missing Triforce piece, but Zelda refused. So, the prince got bitter, and he hired a magician to put a curse on Zelda, if she refused again, which she did, so the magician used all of his powers to cast a spell which left Zelda on an eternal slumber, the magician died, since the spell he cast was too strong. The prince of Hyrule felt regret and sorrow, that he no longer wants the Triforce piece, so for everyone to remember that tragedy, every female member of the royal family must be named Zelda, 100 years have passed which gives Link a chance to wake up Zelda, so Impa gave the crystals to Link to place on every palace pedestal to unlock the Great Palace, and get the Triforce of Courage, whilst Link is on his merry way, Ganon's minions are after Link because according to prophecy, if the hero's blood is sprinkled into Ganon's ashes, Ganon will come back to life.
At least Zelda games are about the story.
John Carmak already apologized over saying that about story in videogames and retracted.
Yeah, I figured. I don't like the quote either. But he's got a point - a game needs to know what it wants to be about. Does it want to be about the story, or the gameplay? If it's the former, then the gameplay is likely going to be less well thought-out. If it's the latter, then the story will be less complex. Both are equally fine, but for Doom, it was important that the gameplay worked. If the game had been kinda fine but limited and the story had been great, I don't think Doom would have been the cult hit it ended up being.
@@GermanPeter I don't see why anyone should be chosing here. Best games have as much as they can from all departments, even old games tried to do so as early as mid 90s.
Doom is still a product of its time, tho, when a lot of entertainment products (not only games) were shallow, but quoting Carmak today is non-sensical, as if celebrating the lack of something that is not inherently tied to technological limits of its time.
TLDR: That "it doesn't need story" sentence is still out of touch, a good story doesn't need to sacrifice gameplay and vice-versa.
The thing was that Tom Hall mainly focused on the story and world of the games, often neglecting gameplay. His early levels are very claustrophobic, and while looking great, don't play so well. They don't utilize Doom's features to their fullest potential, unfortunately. If that had been the direction the game had taken, then I don't think it'd have exploded in popularity so hard.
Doom's final levels aren't perfect, but they're fun to play through. The game needed fast-paced action. That's all I meant by that.
16:08 I find the shotgunner exploding into gibs just as Peter says "milk" funny for some reason.
Very interesting! I had no idea this excited. Excellent video as always!
“Are we sure he’s not actually German?”
Absolutely wild line to throw in 😂
A lil' correction: It's Tei *Tenga* with an "E"
Oh damn, my mind was in the gutter then LOL
The alternative title for lost in hell being to hell and back immediately made me think of the sabaton song
we were robbed, a lot of things in the doom bible seems more interesting than what we got in official games
Fascinating video, the old unmaker and dark claw are my favourite kinds of guns in old fps games, thanks for making and sharing
about "tei tanga" it actually says "tei tenga"
I love how Peter says the cut content from the Doom bible turned into a game that wasn't Rise of the Triad yet it also did kinda become Rise of the Triad as well.
tom hall must have been experimenting with reefer at points
...what, and John Romero wasn't? 😂
Dude put a rocket jumping shotgun in daikatana ffs
If it teaches us anything, Doom is great combination of all the things it failed at.
4:46 that means that he turned on the caramelldansen college femboy rgb lights
I'd love to have had a chance to play doom 4 in its original form
im not sure why, but this bible feels very... random. it feels connected more like an rpg than an fps. it is very interesting to read about, and play lol. thank you for covering this :D
I believe "Doom Delta" should be used as part of a recreation of the actual "Dev Bible" version of Doom.
i'm happy with what we got
I love the GermanPeter channel.
I suddenly wanna make a mod based on the original story
Doom Delta looks great, maybe I'll try this out one day. Still, I'd like to run such a mod in DOS, if someone could make DOS files that fully correspond to GZDoom.
DeHacked, perhaps?
why is there a hellknght from doom 2, when it predates doom 1? one of the colour tests for the baron in d1 that they didnt use til d2?
Doomguy will always be Flynn 'Fly' Taggart to me. Interesting that the novels didn't include much of the bible material although IIRC they both describe each level as being 'under' the one before unlike the game.
I'd love live to hear your take on the novels BTW. The first one at least is very true to the game.
Maybe Doomguy's name is Shawn. Because Shawn's Got The Shotgun.
@@GermanPeter not the Shawn Green, the id employee of the time? He's in credits as "software support" and "episode four" in Ultimate Doom
this channel looks great it talk about multiple id boomer shooter games
this comment great, it talk many good word reply talk
@@GrumpyMunkyGameDesign you got me, thanks for reminding
@@GrumpyMunkyGameDesignthis reply is funny it make fun of goofy grammar
I feel like how I prefer the Doom we got instead of the Doom Bible. That being said, I feel like a spin-off game that follows the Doom Bible might be fun. Sometimes I do wonder if the Doom Bible would have worked better as a different type of game than an FPS. Either an SRPG, Dungeon Crawler or a Rainbow Six Styled Tactical FPS.
Well, I guess you can look at Hexen. Takes a lot of the same concepts, but puts them in a more appropriate setting: a medieval fantasy one. Much slower gameplay in smaller levels connected by hubworlds works brilliantly with Hall's ideas.
@@GermanPeterthat shield idea is something that would’ve worked beautifully in those games. you have a lot more projectiles coming at you in that game because nearly every enemy has one
Does the Doom Delta have 🎄BFG? If so I am interested.
It does!
Tom Hall was definitely not fit for a project like Doom. But let him loose on his own, like in RotT and CKeen; pure magic. It's why to this day, I still hope Bethesda and nu-idSoftware, at least let him have the Commander Keen IP back.
He could have absolutely flourished working on a game like Doom 3 or 2016/Eternal. Finally implementing all those old ideas in a modern setting and then expanding on them.
Shame he got bullied from id :/
@@GermanPeter How he was practically singled out and casted off by the core team during Doom's development was heartbreaking. As heartbreaking as what happened to American McGee during the development of Quake II.
I don't know what happened to McGee, actually.
@@GermanPeter I simply pieced this from 'Masters of Doom' and Sandy Petersen; American McGee got into the team because of his work as a Doom mapper, and turned out very efficient and prudent at his job(from Doom II to Quake 1).
Now, "someone" from the team(pretty much on the same hiring batch/generation as him) kind of had an issue with that. So this guy started doing two things during the development of Quake II; One, mouth off at the team head (which was John Carmack) about his "displeasure" at working at id(which wasn't true), and second, "this guy" started giving him intentionally bad "level design pointers", saying this would be the style of maps that the team would like(which predictably, got McGee into trouble instead).
John Carmack's hierarchic, compartmentalized development group style(instead of the OG team's, flat structure) effectively isolated him, and pretty much everyone else from being able to have a good say at the team, and to have quick, and comprehensive input at the overall game design.
It comes to a head when Carmack, one day, just fired him. As McGee later stated; to this day, he still have no idea what and why it happened(again, the "office politics" were covered in the book and by Petersen, McGee was just doing his job at being a level and game designer).
Oh yeah, I actually heard Sandy's side of the story. That really sucks.
The guys were really good at making games, they were NOT good at working as a team however. Imagine what they could have accomplished if it weren't for all the infighting.
Unrelated to doom but your avatar/face or whatever and voice combined makes me think of pizzahead from pizza tower ngl
"deadnames maybe". well, doomguy does have top surgery scars in doom eternal
Listening to all this just makes me thankful that John Carmack had executive veto powers.
Well, easy for the guy who literally writes the code that makes all your games work to dictate how they're going to be, I suppose.
the later episodes sound like hall made them while drunk
4:56 you put a wrong number
Erm I think you made a mistake in the video because it says Episode 5 not 6 lol
You can tell my attention span also stopped caring after episode 4
@@GermanPeter lol how so many people pointed this out... genuinely baffles me. guess your audience is very attentive lol
What about quake?
The 11th of the 28th? Bro.. How many months u got over there?!
So you say "Episode 6", while the text says "Episode 5"...
*Discrepancy detected.*
*Contradicting Text.*
*Subscription revoked.*
*Glory to Arstotzka.*
(I'm kidding I'm still subbed to you. It be stupid of me to leave due to a minor graphical error. This was a pretty good video nonetheless!)
Interesting..
I have to hard disagree with you about Doom’s story. A story would have helped me get invested in that game. Without it, playing it feels pointless because I don’t find the gameplay or level design fun enough to carry itself.
One of my favorite Doom-derived games (Ashes 2063/Afterglow) is elevated by its story, and Doom could have been too.
I haven’t read the Doom Bible, but as I understand it was a first draft, so I imagine with some tweaks and reworks it could have been something really good.
I don't deny it'd have made you connect with the game more, but Doom excels at gameplay. That's what people are there for. It's like with Mario games, you really only need an inciting incident as motivation and the rest of the game is basically just you having fun. I wouldn't have complained about more story at all, but it's not REQUIRED in my opinion.
You know it's a good day when German Peter posts a video
I want a BEOS hat :)
You'd have to pry it out of Buddy's cold, dead hands.
On second thought, that probably wouldn't be very hard.
@@GermanPeter omg hi :o great video dude!!! :D
omg hiii x333 nice pfp =w=
@@GermanPeter duuuude >< thanks, ur so nice... /w\ also I love what you think of these old shooters !!
Thanks!
6:13
Watchmen. Read recently, good comic.
"the eleventh of the 28" lol
Tei Thong, eh? Hdoom was planned from the start!
Egg
doom man
2:42 also in spanish xD
Please make more TF2 videos
lol no
Tanga? It literally reads Tei Tenga...
No, only figuratively. Sorry.
I am so down to headcanon Doomguy as a trans man now
Not all scars on his body come from demons...
💀
Hello!
been 2 hours and not even 1k views
fell off (JK JK PLS DONT GET SAD)
grrrrr mean
who laughs at these copypasta comments
@@traumatizedgeworth it ain't supposed to make you laugh
@@timurknk1 then........ what's the point
@@traumatizedgeworth there is no point
Doom delta is overrated