Great video of an outstanding plane. I watched the real plane some days ago in the Italian Air Force museum in Bracciano, north of Rome. It's an amazing plane.
The reason seaplanes were faster back then was that they could make long takeoff runs which their fixed pitch props needed to get up to speed. The introduction of the variable pitch prop allowed land planes to accelerate quickly enough to get off the ground within the confines of an aerodrome. Still, 441mph in a wire braced float plane is a remarkable achievment. Thanks Bomberguy.
Amazing footage. The Macchi MC-72 is the ultimate sea plane in both design and performance, Unfortunately the plane was not ready in time for the Schneider Trophy.
is determined by various witnesses that during a test flight was the maximum speed reached 460 mph dioltre (740 km / h). This was unfortunately not recorded speed since the flight of a Test.
Also: "It was powered by the Fiat AS.6 engine, which consisted of two coupled AS.5 V-12 engines, driving co-axial contra-rotating two-bladed propellers. The AS.6 delivered 2800hp, and for the record attempt the engine was boosted to 3100hp!."
Well spotted! I dug these refs for you: "After reading the information from Mr. Lecce and doing further research, I added more information about the engine(s). Yes, there were two Fiat V12 engines linked together driving the MC-72. Their drive shafts rotated in opposite directions. I suppose because the engines were linked, they are referred to as a single engine."
@ThatMiserableCat- No, the MC.72 didn't use evaporative radiators, just flush-mounted regular radiators. But it is cool that they located them in the floats....there was no room left on the fuselage, so they decided to use the empty pontoons rather than increase the fuselage diameter.
@Stoneballer91- Italy had THIS ONE excellent plane in '34. The CR.42 was a combat plane, which had to lug a bunch of guns, ammo, fuel, and armor around, be reliable, rugged, easy to fly, with a wing that could actually TURN within a mile radius. The RA put it's faith in maneuverable biplanes. They choose wrong, but THAT'S why they still had 450kmph CR.42's in 1943. They were to work with the 500+kmph C.200 from before1941 and the 600kmph C.202 by '43. Compare with the Gloster Gladiator, etc.
Amazing footage. The Macchi MC-72 remains the ultimate sea plane in both performance and design. Unfortunately the plane was not ready in time for the Schneider Trophy.
@SmartSpionem- The MC.72 was faster than early WWII fighters because it was built to do one thing...go fast in a straight line. It was fragile, light, difficult to fly, had twin engines with the frontal surface of a single engine, and had a very high wing loading, as well as only just enough gas to do the job. And no front windshield! A fighter has to be RELIABLE (which the Macchi WASN'T), strong and maneuverable, easy to fly, have dive/climb, range, AND carry guns, armor, sufficient fuel, etc.
Castoldi was on par with the best engineers in the world.....After building this rocket ship, he was then forced to build a dumpy, draggy, underpowered M.C 200. At least RJ Mitchell was able to immediately apply his high-speed designs into the Spitfire. Still surprises me that the British Air Ministry didn't find a way to foul up or cancel the Spitfire.
I find it amazing the speed of those things with those cumbersome pontoons along for the ride. That took alot of courage from a pilots view (imho). The British were another participant in the race floatplane with their Supermarine variants. Think of how fast those crazy things would of gone it they could of ditched the pontoons.
What a really beautiful plane! This is the sort of plane that inspired in Miyazaki his love of planes, and eventually his Porco Rosso, my favorite among his works. Somebody mentions the pilot's 'Hitler' salute. In fact it's the Italian Fascist salute, borrowed by the Nazis, who were inspired by Mussolini's movement.
@denberg2- Yes, it's actually two V-12's, but they are made specifically to fit together, so one has a hole through it's centerline crankshaft, while the other runs ANOTHER shaft through the first. So the rear engine runs the front prop, and the front runs the rear prop. They share a supercharger mounted between them with one big intake manifold. I don't know about radiators, whether they shared coolant. You could say that it was 1 engine built with two crankcases basically.
Amazing footage. The Macchi MC-72 remains the ultimate plane both in performance and design. Unfortunately the plane was too late for the Schneider Trophy
Obviously this a/c has two independent V12 engines each driving there own propeller. This is shown when one engine starts only one prop turns and like wise when the other starts the second prop turns. Also each engine turned in opposing directions to neutralise the torque. The engines are not mechanically linked in any way.
Hi, in fact this was an experimental plane , it can flying for a few minutes and only with good weather, his floating parts was very sensitive. When the funds for the Schneider Cup ended the plane has benn thrown in a warehouse.
The bearcat and mustang both had their own lightened and better performing variants. It'd make a fine Reconnaissance floatplane. And minus the floats i imagine it'd be remarkably faster.
Does anyone know how the startup process of this plane works? The fore propeller spins first, then the rear follows? Is it just a clutch kicking in and putting the second prop on the shaft or is the engine like two engines?
Start-up is shown on the vid, and as posted below, it's actually two V-12's, bolted together, so one has a hole through it's centerline crankshaft, while the other runs ANOTHER shaft through the first. So the rear engine runs the front prop, and the front runs the rear prop. You could say that it was 1 engine built with two crankcases basically. Like many Italian designs, very clever, yet ultimately rather temperamental/fragile. Fine for a few wellmaintained racers, but hopeless in a war scenario for example. But hats-off from this aero engineer !
it was never intended to be a fighter aircraft. you don't see F1 cars in the road. the spitfire derived from the I-16 as all cantilever monoplanes after it. the only thing the spitfire got from the S6B was some tech for the merlin.
@TheRealInvaderZim- I'm not positive, but I believe the "9 radiators" in the Veyron include transmission coolers, etc. Most of them are for the engine, but it uses many small radiators, to avoid the packaging problems of a large radiator. But you are right, high-powered engines need to disappate heat, since internal-combustion engines are inefficient (ie no engine makes better than around 50% efficiency, meaning that 50% of the energy turns to heat) for every unit of power, there's 1 of heat.
Experimental be it may, modified it could have very well ended the war. It's a damn shame it was just left to sit, such a gold mine of performance. Prototype or not, it still deserves to be war worthy. After all, they did the same with the Bearcat and Mustang fighters.
@peepeevagi- Uh...nice name. (?) Anyway, the Bearcat and Mustang etc are totally different animals from the MC.72. Basically, they didn't use the Macchi for any military service because it needed ALL that power to reach that speed, and it only made that power by being unreliable...think F1 engine. If you detuned the engine, it would only make 380mph, and they already had much larger, stronger planes with that speed. They had better things to work on than a fragile tiny plane with one use.
purtroppo le riprese in volo nelle 1° sequenze NON riportano il magnifico MC-72 -- da sotto si riconoscono le ali piegati leggermente "all´indietro" da uno degli predecessori, del Macchi M-39....
E' sempre una grande emozione!!! come tutte le altre invenzioni motoristiche italiane: che siano di cielo, terra o mare. Manca l'Italia dell'ingegno...
Fantastic Video Bomberguy! Hi to hall as just write the As.6 was made by two Fiat AS.5 the 3100hp was made by a special fuel : 55% gasoline - 22% benzol - 23 % ethanol and special with 1,5/1000 Tetaetrile lead..copied from the british Supermarine
Italiamerican Well yeah, but the idea of the Schneider Trophy was the beat the air speed record for waterborne aircraft. The challenge is getting something with huge, drag generating pontoons to go faster.
The fantastic engine of this aircraft, the Fiat AS.6, could serve as a basis for developing a V-engine for our fighters during the Second World War, as the Rolls-Royce R served to develop the great Rolls-Royce Griffon, but not us, we developed a mediocre radial engine, the Fiat A.74, what nonsense!.
There where 2 Italy, one fascist and patriotic and the other masonic aristocratic loyal to London, they did not want Mussolini to win so they sabotaged Italy from 1935.
Whilst being marvelous aircraft, they were racing planes & far from being fighters. Technology from these aircraft did move aircraft design & engine development along. The Rolls Royce R engine was the fore father to the Griffon used in the Spitfire. And as if to complete the circle ~ floats were trialled & added to a few Spitfires, but the need for these aircraft disappeared & they were converted back to land configuration.
The Spitfire used technology from the Supermarine S.6B which won the Schneider Trophy outright in 1931. The Macchi M.C. 72 was specifically designed for this race but the Italians hand to iron out a few problems and it wasn't ready. Had it been it is likely to have beaten the S.6b
@peepeevagi-I re-read you reply; the Bearcat and Mustang far more capable of carrying camera and other essential recon items, they had far, far more range/endurance than the Macchi and infinitely better altitude performance with their 2-speed, 2-stage superchargers, essential for a recon plane to survive. I don't think the Macchi had more than an hours endurance (if that), and if you read you'll find that they were lucky the engines worked long enough to make the record. It was a SPEED PLANE.
semplice: il macchi 72 era un pezzo unico, ma l'industria non aveva possibilità di riprodurlo (come tante altre meraviglie nostrane come il campini o il piaggio p108) sia per mancanza di fondi, sia per capriccio di mussolini e del gran consiglio, che non guardavano al futuro (eccetto balbo, ma si sa la fine che ha fatto...)
Can you help me with a picture of this beautifull aeroplane for my book? An operasinger was in 1934 in Venegono and met some of the constructors. The book shall be published in May 2010.. Thank you for this unexpected video!
441 MPH and that wasn't max and with floats that cause severe drag. I'd guess it would of been capable of well over 500MPH in level flight had it been made as a conventional aircraft with retractable landing gear, but probably would of suffered from severe compressibility at over 500MPH
I have seen these airplanes at the Italian Air Force Museum north of Rome at Lago Di Bracciano. They look brand new,,,Check out the IAF museum website.
A great plane thanks to a great pilot and a wonderful team! It is curious that the massive engines had managed to achieve so much horsepower was thanks to a British expert that had created a special gasoline blend!!! As a hindsight of all great record breaking airplanes created until the 2nd WW it was probably the most useless as everything was created exclusively only for the speed with no real benefits on technology and metallurgy! Just look at the engines: it was a double engine rigidly attached with double propeller shafts brilliantly solving the tremendous torque but of no real consequences for the development of powerful engines! Perhaps the best testament to what I'm saying is the famous Merlin engine that had benefited enormously from the racing engines whilst Italy that same year it broke the record decided to develop only Air cooled radial engines by literally stopping any research or development on inline engines! An incredibly foolish decision by throwing away years of experience with the racing engines because the engines manufacturers never developed powerful radial engines! The consequences was that Italy entered in war with modest radial engines and had to license built the DB 601 far to late to have any real impact on war!
@emforty2- Are you joking? The MC.72 would be worthless as anything but a speed-record plane. Every pound is crucial when trying to get that speed, and the wing loading was already high as hell...what do you think would have happened if you'd added two 100lb 20mm cannon and ammo on to it? The wings would probably snap! Not to mention the tiny fuel capacity+huge engine, limited turning and climb performance, looong take off run, difficult handling...NOT a Spitfire killer. That's a dumb idea.
@nembokiddo come se l'Italia avesse la stessa potenza economica degli altri...cazzo c'entra la guerra...c'è proprio di che essere fieri di quella guerra...eppoi: di che furbata stai parlando?
81 years and record still standing.
Right!👍
Still holding an aviation record after nearly 75 years!!.Amazing machine
Thanks. The MC 72 was an amazing achievement. Too bad it was not ready for the 1931 Schneider Trophy!
Great video of an outstanding plane. I watched the real plane some days ago in the Italian Air Force museum in Bracciano, north of Rome. It's an amazing plane.
My favorite seaplane ever.
I still say it's a damn shame it was never used for reconnaissance, or fitted with six blade, contra rotating propellers.
The reason seaplanes were faster back then was that they could make long takeoff runs which their fixed pitch props needed to get up to speed.
The introduction of the variable pitch prop allowed land planes to accelerate quickly enough to get off the ground within the confines of an aerodrome.
Still, 441mph in a wire braced float plane is a remarkable achievment.
Thanks Bomberguy.
Amazing footage. The Macchi MC-72 is the ultimate sea plane in both design and performance, Unfortunately the plane was not ready in time for the Schneider Trophy.
Glad this film had the sound, would love to hear it run today with the better recording quality.
is determined by various witnesses that during a test flight was the maximum speed reached 460 mph dioltre (740 km / h). This was unfortunately not recorded speed since the flight of a Test.
Also: "It was powered by the Fiat AS.6 engine, which consisted of two coupled AS.5 V-12 engines, driving co-axial contra-rotating two-bladed propellers. The AS.6 delivered 2800hp, and for the record attempt the engine was boosted to 3100hp!."
You can visit the M. C. 72.... There is a Museum on Bracciano Lake. It's free and the place look very nice
A remarkably beautiful machine now on display at the Aeronautical Military Museum in Bracciano, Italy, not far from Rome.
Well spotted! I dug these refs for you: "After reading the information from Mr. Lecce and doing further research, I added more information about the engine(s). Yes, there were two Fiat V12 engines linked together driving the MC-72. Their drive shafts rotated in opposite directions. I suppose because the engines were linked, they are referred to as a single engine."
@ThatMiserableCat- No, the MC.72 didn't use evaporative radiators, just flush-mounted regular radiators. But it is cool that they located them in the floats....there was no room left on the fuselage, so they decided to use the empty pontoons rather than increase the fuselage diameter.
@Stoneballer91- Italy had THIS ONE excellent plane in '34. The CR.42 was a combat plane, which had to lug a bunch of guns, ammo, fuel, and armor around, be reliable, rugged, easy to fly, with a wing that could actually TURN within a mile radius. The RA put it's faith in maneuverable biplanes. They choose wrong, but THAT'S why they still had 450kmph CR.42's in 1943. They were to work with the 500+kmph C.200 from before1941 and the 600kmph C.202 by '43. Compare with the Gloster Gladiator, etc.
Amazing footage. The Macchi MC-72 remains the ultimate sea plane in both performance and design. Unfortunately the plane was not ready in time for the Schneider Trophy.
These airplanes are in the Italian Air Force Museum in Lago Di Bracciano....They still look brand new.
BTW Thats just North of Roma....
@SmartSpionem- The MC.72 was faster than early WWII fighters because it was built to do one thing...go fast in a straight line. It was fragile, light, difficult to fly, had twin engines with the frontal surface of a single engine, and had a very high wing loading, as well as only just enough gas to do the job. And no front windshield! A fighter has to be RELIABLE (which the Macchi WASN'T), strong and maneuverable, easy to fly, have dive/climb, range, AND carry guns, armor, sufficient fuel, etc.
Castoldi was on par with the best engineers in the world.....After building this rocket ship, he was then forced to build a dumpy, draggy, underpowered M.C 200. At least RJ Mitchell was able to immediately apply his high-speed designs into the Spitfire. Still surprises me that the British Air Ministry didn't find a way to foul up or cancel the Spitfire.
A 24 cylinder Fiat engine with almost 3,000 horsepower and an open cockpit going 440 mph?
nope nope nope nope nope nope nope
Two FIAT engines ... 12 cylinders each ...
Well it holds the record and still exists today so yep yep yep yep yep yep yep
Oh wow, I didn’t realize the engines weren’t coupled at all. I thought I saw and heard first one and then the 2nd start and spin it’s prop.
I find it amazing the speed of those things with those cumbersome pontoons along for the ride. That took alot of courage from a pilots view (imho). The British were another participant in the race floatplane with their Supermarine variants. Think of how fast those crazy things would of gone it they could of ditched the pontoons.
except that the floats often included fuel tanks, and/or water and oil cooling radiators.
What a really beautiful plane! This is the sort of plane that inspired in Miyazaki his love of planes, and eventually his Porco Rosso, my favorite among his works.
Somebody mentions the pilot's 'Hitler' salute. In fact it's the Italian Fascist salute, borrowed by the Nazis, who were inspired by Mussolini's movement.
That makes a bit more sense now, thanks.
Great video.. just made a paper replica of this plane
remove the pontoon and add a pair of 20mm cannon on each wings
no allied plane can touch it and would have been a spitfire killer
@denberg2- Yes, it's actually two V-12's, but they are made specifically to fit together, so one has a hole through it's centerline crankshaft, while the other runs ANOTHER shaft through the first. So the rear engine runs the front prop, and the front runs the rear prop. They share a supercharger mounted between them with one big intake manifold. I don't know about radiators, whether they shared coolant. You could say that it was 1 engine built with two crankcases basically.
Amazing footage. The Macchi MC-72 remains the ultimate plane both in performance and design. Unfortunately the plane was too late for the Schneider Trophy
Obviously this a/c has two independent V12 engines each driving there own propeller.
This is shown when one engine starts only one prop turns and like wise when the other starts the second prop turns. Also each engine turned in opposing directions to neutralise the torque. The engines are not mechanically linked in any way.
Beautifull
Hi, in fact this was an experimental plane , it can flying for a few minutes and only with good weather, his floating parts was very sensitive. When the funds for the Schneider Cup ended the plane has benn thrown in a warehouse.
COUNTER - ROTATING PROPS
The bearcat and mustang both had their own lightened and better performing variants. It'd make a fine Reconnaissance floatplane. And minus the floats i imagine it'd be remarkably faster.
Grandissimo idrovolante!!! !!! !!!
Im a part of the family that made that plane
Does anyone know how the startup process of this plane works? The fore propeller spins first, then the rear follows? Is it just a clutch kicking in and putting the second prop on the shaft or is the engine like two engines?
Start-up is shown on the vid, and as posted below, it's actually two V-12's, bolted together, so one has a hole through it's centerline crankshaft, while
the other runs ANOTHER shaft through the first. So the rear engine runs
the front prop, and the front runs the rear prop. You could say that it
was 1 engine built with two crankcases basically. Like many Italian designs, very clever, yet ultimately rather temperamental/fragile. Fine for a few wellmaintained racers, but hopeless in a war scenario for example. But hats-off from this aero engineer !
it was never intended to be a fighter aircraft.
you don't see F1 cars in the road.
the spitfire derived from the I-16 as all cantilever monoplanes after it.
the only thing the spitfire got from the S6B was some tech for the merlin.
How much prop pitch do you want
Macchi: yes
@TheRealInvaderZim- I'm not positive, but I believe the "9 radiators" in the Veyron include transmission coolers, etc. Most of them are for the engine, but it uses many small radiators, to avoid the packaging problems of a large radiator. But you are right, high-powered engines need to disappate heat, since internal-combustion engines are inefficient (ie no engine makes better than around 50% efficiency, meaning that 50% of the energy turns to heat) for every unit of power, there's 1 of heat.
Experimental be it may, modified it could have very well ended the war.
It's a damn shame it was just left to sit, such a gold mine of performance.
Prototype or not, it still deserves to be war worthy. After all, they did the same with the Bearcat and Mustang fighters.
@peepeevagi- Uh...nice name. (?)
Anyway, the Bearcat and Mustang etc are totally different animals from the MC.72. Basically, they didn't use the Macchi for any military service because it needed ALL that power to reach that speed, and it only made that power by being unreliable...think F1 engine. If you detuned the engine, it would only make 380mph, and they already had much larger, stronger planes with that speed. They had better things to work on than a fragile tiny plane with one use.
@dj8work How can you compare a fighting plane with a plane built only in order to break a speed record?
at the time of the record it was fastest on land and sea
now thats just cool
purtroppo le riprese in volo nelle 1° sequenze NON riportano il magnifico MC-72 -- da sotto si riconoscono le ali piegati leggermente "all´indietro" da uno degli predecessori, del Macchi M-39....
E' sempre una grande emozione!!! come tutte le altre invenzioni motoristiche italiane: che siano di cielo, terra o mare. Manca l'Italia dell'ingegno...
Fantastic Video Bomberguy!
Hi to hall as just write the As.6 was made by two Fiat AS.5 the 3100hp was made by a special fuel : 55% gasoline - 22% benzol - 23 % ethanol and special with 1,5/1000 Tetaetrile lead..copied from the british Supermarine
Such a sexy seaplane. I wonder if anyone is actively trying to beat this record.
+A5mod3us its been beaten, but not by a seaplane lol
Italiamerican Well yeah, but the idea of the Schneider Trophy was the beat the air speed record for waterborne aircraft. The challenge is getting something with huge, drag generating pontoons to go faster.
The fantastic engine of this aircraft, the Fiat AS.6, could serve as a basis for developing a V-engine for our fighters during the Second World War, as the Rolls-Royce R served to develop the great Rolls-Royce Griffon, but not us, we developed a mediocre radial engine, the Fiat A.74, what nonsense!.
There where 2 Italy, one fascist and patriotic and the other masonic aristocratic loyal to London, they did not want Mussolini to win so they sabotaged Italy from 1935.
Whilst being marvelous aircraft, they were racing planes & far from being fighters. Technology from these aircraft did move aircraft design & engine development along. The Rolls Royce R engine was the fore father to the Griffon used in the Spitfire.
And as if to complete the circle ~ floats were trialled & added to a few Spitfires, but the need for these aircraft disappeared & they were converted back to land configuration.
@munich84ss they can make 10 but no 1000 pieces for the war. The shoes of the Italian soldier was made in paper, they had the IWW rifle...
Well the Spitfire reminds me the Mc. 72 so I don't exclude that it served as inspiration for the Spit.
The Spitfire used technology from the Supermarine S.6B which won the Schneider Trophy outright in 1931. The Macchi M.C. 72 was specifically designed for this race but the Italians hand to iron out a few problems and it wasn't ready. Had it been it is likely to have beaten the S.6b
速度之王，不知道拆了浮筒能飞多快
@peepeevagi-I re-read you reply; the Bearcat and Mustang far more capable of carrying camera and other essential recon items, they had far, far more range/endurance than the Macchi and infinitely better altitude performance with their 2-speed, 2-stage superchargers, essential for a recon plane to survive. I don't think the Macchi had more than an hours endurance (if that), and if you read you'll find that they were lucky the engines worked long enough to make the record. It was a SPEED PLANE.
semplice: il macchi 72 era un pezzo unico, ma l'industria non aveva possibilità di riprodurlo (come tante altre meraviglie nostrane come il campini o il piaggio p108) sia per mancanza di fondi, sia per capriccio di mussolini e del gran consiglio, che non guardavano al futuro (eccetto balbo, ma si sa la fine che ha fatto...)
Can you help me with a picture of this beautifull aeroplane for my book? An operasinger was in 1934 in Venegono and met some of the constructors. The book shall be published in May 2010..
Thank you for this unexpected video!
Why were the sea planes so fast?
@FolgoreColMoschin maybe it should be revisited and given another run :)
I'd like to see how fast it would go without the pontoons.
the ting was also a flying radiator
441 MPH and that wasn't max and with floats that cause severe drag. I'd guess it would of been capable of well over 500MPH in level flight had it been made as a conventional aircraft with retractable landing gear, but probably would of suffered from severe compressibility at over 500MPH
chi vola vale, chi non vola non vale, chi vale e non vola è un vile
Wenn man richtig beobachtet ,sieht man daß beim Motorstart zwei Motoren eingebaut sind! V-24! Normal waren es immer V12 Motoren!
Ahh.
Without the drag of the floats...
I wonder if the italians could have kept a speed record for a few more years
Taking off from water was necessary due to the extremely long takeoff run .
Yep
I have seen these airplanes at the Italian Air Force Museum north of Rome at Lago Di Bracciano. They look brand new,,,Check out the IAF museum website.
A great plane thanks to a great pilot and a wonderful team! It is curious that the massive engines had managed to achieve so much horsepower was thanks to a British expert that had created a special gasoline blend!!! As a hindsight of all great record breaking airplanes created until the 2nd WW it was probably the most useless as everything was created exclusively only for the speed with no real benefits on technology and metallurgy! Just look at the engines: it was a double engine rigidly attached with double propeller shafts brilliantly solving the tremendous torque but of no real consequences for the development of powerful engines! Perhaps the best testament to what I'm saying is the famous Merlin engine that had benefited enormously from the racing engines whilst Italy that same year it broke the record decided to develop only Air cooled radial engines by literally stopping any research or development on inline engines! An incredibly foolish decision by throwing away years of experience with the racing engines because the engines manufacturers never developed powerful radial engines! The consequences was that Italy entered in war with modest radial engines and had to license built the DB 601 far to late to have any real impact on war!
Pickleman Ferrari plane?
stop fucking using exclamation marks
lemons nick problems?
take the floats off that thing and then see what speed they can get to....
紅の豚のプラモデル解説書の話から来ました
@Stoneballer91 Lack of money for developing the planes.
hehe, brick ;)
@emforty2- Are you joking? The MC.72 would be worthless as anything but a speed-record plane. Every pound is crucial when trying to get that speed, and the wing loading was already high as hell...what do you think would have happened if you'd added two 100lb 20mm cannon and ammo on to it? The wings would probably snap! Not to mention the tiny fuel capacity+huge engine, limited turning and climb performance, looong take off run, difficult handling...NOT a Spitfire killer. That's a dumb idea.
@nembokiddo come se l'Italia avesse la stessa potenza economica degli altri...cazzo c'entra la guerra...c'è proprio di che essere fieri di quella guerra...eppoi: di che furbata stai parlando?