How Old EV Batteries are Perfect for Energy Storage
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- Опубликовано: 10 июн 2024
- How Old EV Batteries are Perfect for Energy Storage. Get BougeRV solar panels today: link.undecidedmf.com/bougerv BIG discount codes: MATT27 - 27% off 200W CIGS solar panels, MATT20 - 20% off 100W CIGS solar panels. After June 6th they drop to 17% off, so don’t miss out. And use MATT15 for 15% off other products. All codes valid until September 1st. It’s been nice to see the growing popularity of electric vehicles these last few years, but EVs need batteries and batteries don’t last forever. In fact, the first generation of EV batteries are already dying, and there's an absolute dead battery typhoon coming. Lithium battery recycling is improving, but it's still far from where it needs to be. Luckily there's another option that's pretty simple. Just take those used batteries and repurpose them for less demanding large scale energy storage. That's exactly what’s happening at a recently opened 25 MWh grid scale energy storage system in California. But if these batteries are “dead,” how are they able to bring new life to renewable energy storage?
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What do you think of repurposing used batteries? Get BougeRV solar panels today: link.undecidedmf.com/bougerv BIG discount codes: MATT27 - 27% off 200W CIGS solar panels, MATT20 - 20% off 100W CIGS solar panels. After June 6th they drop to 17% off, so don’t miss out. And use MATT15 for 15% off other products. All codes valid until September 1st. Additional BougeRV products:
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Sodium Carbon batteries look like they are going to take over. When this happens, reusing will sell a little silly, cos of the high likelihood that recycling will be much easier. I don't think this tsunami will last very long:)
Ride the Tsunami - metal band:)
I think that's great. A friend recommended this idea for personal/home use, but the catch is where to buy/find reliable used batteries. He works with car EV batteries, but not in retail and so does not know this, do you?
@@MozartificeR Active carbon might get replace in the future with something like sulfur.
I was fairly certain you had covered this before, or maybe it was someone else. Either way, the drop that dead EV batteries aren’t dead, just no longer suitable for being EV batteries, was no surprise at all.
Two questions. When can we expect your album debut.
Secondly, with BTU providing a resting place for Honda and Nissan batteries, you'd expect those manufacturers to work hand in hand with BTU as it significantly reduces their e-waste footprint. At least for a few more years.
You missed out on a great title "How dead EV batteries are the perfect vehicle for energy storage"
Oh ... my ... 🤯
@@UndecidedMFupdate video… title is done!
I’ve been waiting to see a plant like this for years. Glad to see someone is taking this idea seriously.
Reuse should always come before recycle.
if we were serious about fighting transport-related carbon emissions, we would stop making car batteries and start building trains and public transit.
@@davydawgdawg We need to be realistic with our fight.
We’ve had individuals doing this for house batteries for a couple years now.
@@davydawgdawg Transit is huge and should be encouraged for most of the population. At the same time there's a significant of people in rural areas where it doesn't make sense to deploy transit.
Battery Necromancy? The Adeptus Mechanicus would like a word with you Matt.
🤣
😂😂😂😂
I was about to say the same 😂😂
They may too wish to learn these secrets, seemingly from the tomb worlds
Another good metal name.
Manufacturers could do a lot to help make this happen by building a basic standard BMS protocol into their packs. Should probably be mandated to do this.
While that would be ideal, in practicality it would hardly be feasible. However, there is definitely room in the market for creating a basic template that makes it easier for startups and existing companies to adopt this standard by nature of it being cheaper than them investing into their own production. Thus far most of the big players keep their stuff proprietary and don't share amongst each other, which is why I'd assume this hasn't really happened yet at a large global scale.
Then used prices would probably double.
...also integrate peaker plants into the railway system for efficient transport and handling. As the railway system becomes electrified, they have a vested interest in supporting this upcoming infrastructure.
An then here is Tesla. They glue there battery to the chassis. It's so bad that you can not take the battery out and reuse it.
There is a big need for legislation that forces OEM to allow standard connection and replaceable batteries
The standards tend to be formed by the number one players. A good example of this is, just this past week Ford and Tesla publicly announced their collaboration on Ford accepting the Tesla plug standard.
I thought of doing this on a smaller scale. For a home, you would actually just repurpose your own car battery when you needed to upgrade it. Then use the old battery in your house to compliment solar roof.
that if tesla gives you that battery upon replacement. So far I needed to replace my main computer, I paid $2000 for that replacement to them, basically cost of new computer plus labor and they still absolutely refused to give me my broken computer back. Go figure.
One issue you will run into is home insurance - your install won't use UL rated batteries and in the case of a fire you may find that your insurance company won't cover it. Many of the cheap Chinese batteries being sold aren't UL listed either so you have to be careful even buying batteries let alone reusing.
A couple of years ago Robert Llewelyn did a Fully Charged episode on his old Nissan Leaf. He had a mob in the Netherlands (if I remember rightly) upgrade the battery to a new higher capacity one. They then use the old battery in a system that sounded a lot like BTU's. Anyway, a very good thing indeed. The old EV batteries have a lot of usefulness left in them as stationary storage; whether grid or neighbourhood or home.
I don't think you would want an unreliable fire risk storage system at home
@@ain92ru most batteries i would only want in a concrete shell outside the house
@@ain92ru EV batteries are much more reliable and less prone to fire than cell phone and laptop batteries.
I spent £7,200 on batteries for my home. The SCRAP value for these batteries is nearly £1,000. No batteries are going to be thrown away, the materials in them are just too valuable.
But wouldn't ripping them apart to extract those valuable materials leave leftover and toxic byproducts?
@@theterminaldave currently around 90-95% of material is recovered.
If there is x amount of dead batteries per year, and the recycling industry has a capacity of x/2, then there will be batteries going to landfill regardless of how much the materials inside are worth.... that's where energy storage comes in
they're not getting thrown away. they are getting them cheap and using them to make money from buying the renewable energy at low price and selling high
@@John...44... Or they will store them until they can process them. Money talks, the metals are very valuable.
Our first gen Nissan Leaf is down to about 75% battery capacity and its 10 years old. My wife will continue to use it to drive to work, which is short range, for many years to come and itll be great for small daily chores. We will ride it till it dies, it will be 20+ years old with next to no repairs or maintenance necessary in that timespan. Even currently with 75% capacity, only once a year might we want to take a roundtrip longer than what it can sustain, so it fits us just brilliantly.
How many miles has it done?
I think Nissan wisely overengineered (underpromised/overdelivered) their batteries at first.
@@michaelmicek They also foolishly air-cooled them, leaving to degradation rates that rival cell phone batteries. At least nobody copied that mistake...
@@HenryLoenwind except the point is that for most users they greatly outlasted what was promised.
@@HenryLoenwind: Being air cooled matters a lot less than most people think. Even in ambient temps over 90F, parking directly in the summer sun, my LEAF’s battery rarely broke the 96F mark. Granted, that’s not the absolute optimum temp, but considering that it quickly cools down to 83-85F overnight, it’s also not that bad either. Another thing to consider is the fact that the liquid cooling system also makes the pack as a whole much harder to repair; so if one cell or module of a liquid cooled pack goes bad, it’s often quicker, easier, and safer to just replace the whole thing rather than rebuild it. With the LEAF battery being dry and held together by threaded rods and nuts (rather than thermally conductive glue), that makes repair/rebuild much more feasible.
I kinda use this at my home on a micro (nano/pico?) scale.
Whenever my older powerbanks die i pull out the batteries and use them for extras solar nighlights around my home.
I replaced the soldered connections on the nightlight pcb to modular battery holders for easy swaps.
Instead of using one new battery I use 2-3 used ones and set them for low current draws. Have been using this for a year now and its going great. The mobile powerbanks were anyways going to a landfill in most cases (atleast in my country)
Same for me lol, there are "dead" powerbanks that are tossed out to the e-waste bin near my village. Most of them are still has perfectly good battery and the thing that is dead are only the BMS module. I replaced the dead BMS with the new one (which is very cheap) to give them second chance of life
Imagine getting free power bank from dumpster and get it working again as intended with very cheap modules from various electronic stores
@@sihamhamda47
oh yes this is way better, I was talking about faulty batteries
A lot of generic powerbanks use bad BMS/charging boards which go kaput in 1-2 yrs. The battery is usually in such great health that it can be reused for inhouse usage safely by adding in a basic 1 dollar BMS + charging ckt
Cool idea!
My take is in using less battery powered devices 😂
How great to see new clean energy ideas that are on the cutting edge of actual commercial application! And wins from all directions! Great report, Matt. Thanks much. And good luck with that band: more power to you.
I work at a nickel refinery that is researching recycling of so called "black mass". It is a potential source for a lot of the things we refine. With the amount of money businesses can earn from recycling these substances, I believe that a complete recycle eco system for batteries are right around the corner.
Yup the black mass is made of cobalt copper and carbon. May have iron manganese or tantalum added as well. Worthwhile to mine it.
One of the benefits of using the batteries for storage for a few years is that it will give industries like yours time to possibly improve on today’s technology.
Matt, another twist on this idea would be to pare a used battery with a few solar panels at the home of a EV owner (market a package for EV owners) so the system collects energy during the day and then charge the car with it in the evening. This takes the car off the grid for a lot of typical driving. Love the repurpose idea though for grid storage. Someone below mentioned a system for home and farm use too. Cheers, Tim
That was the original idea behind Tesla's Powerwall. However, unsurprisingly it turned out that the demand is much higher than the number of retired batteries...
@@HenryLoenwind I would not risk putting batteries like that in my home since the fire risk is too great and I wonder what insurance companies would think.
3 thumbnail changes on the same video and still getting it recommended mercilessly. I've resisted clicking until now. You have the algorithm figured out quite well.
Hi Matt,
I've watched most, if not all, of your videos and this is perhaps the most impactful from a "let's put this to use today..." perspective. Thanks for the research and effort to put these together.
Matt has a seemingly infinite supply of Dad puns today.
ROTFLMAO on the new metal band names! I love this idea - props to the company that thought this up!
I absolutely love to see this. To your point about a tsunami of EV batteries to come, I'm even more curious to know about the future of the logistics of getting all of those used EV, as well as from plug-in hybrids, to factories for testing, validation, and configured into units for sale, like that one you showed in California.
EXACTLY - the logistics of the renewables and EV market are colossal - labor alone, and when they don't employ anyone and factories are run by robots? the costs are astronomic and seem to be simply ignored - white whale tech
Perhaps more localized depots where batteries are replaced or delivered to by repairers, used batteries tested and then also made available as cheaper alternative for domestic systems. Fortunately the "right to repair" movement is gaining steam (although Tesla, like Apple, is rather resisitant).
I think the "tsunami of EV batteries" is a bit overstated. Last time I read in to this, the batteries were often exceeding their lifespans, and that's with ~20yr old technology!
@@TheIVJackal It's unavoidable we have to EVENTUALLY deal with this, even if the onslaught takes an extra 10 years to manifest, even if we suddenly have the replacement battery chemistry or technology (we won't), and ESPECIALLY if EVs actually become affordable to the 75% of the mrket that doesn't seem likely to access it (I don't see how I'll ever get one before I die, and I MIGHT just last anoher 15 years or a few more, and real, effective public transit outside of cities is obviously unAmurikkkan and against the laws of God).
@@helmutkrahn9337 Resistant? Tesla?? The company believes that even after you've fully paid for the car, they have the right to dictated what you can and can't do to the car and have the right to make changes to the car's software and function at any time
This is an excellent example of forward thinking on reuse. In the past, we let waste pile up for decades, even centuries, before developing effective long-life reuse for various industrial and consumer items and their waste products. It is also an excellent business model - finding a less expensive, safe and reliable solution for a large and costly problem.
I think this is a great idea. This could be implamented as a virtual power plant. I live in a rural area and could see these being spread-out over farms. Get farm could have a couple of them. It wouldn't require a huge infrastruce or grid upgrade.
This is exactly what battery 🔋 manufacturers want, so when the dendrites grow, they burst into flames 🔥 in rural areas, the lithium waste can not be tracked back to them [since lithium waste is being linked to Autism in latest scientific studies], and the burden of recycling goes away.
Just local co-operation and micro-grid deployment.
Have you MET capitalist Amurikkka?
Not so fast with that. Forklifts are heavy as are the battery packs. The land would likely have to be compacted for the structure and the access lanes. I do like the idea of distributed facilities but there are economies of scale to consider. Would local authorities require every storage facility to have someone on site 24/7 to monitor it?
I surely hope the politicians' staffers are subscribed and taking notes! Another excellent episode. Thank you.
I can see this being used without the power generation as well as simple a way to balance loads and it could be dispersed and act as a backup power system for a neighborhood.
Wonderful Matt, I love your channel and your presentation. Keep it up, we need this kind of information 👍
As someone in California the solution seems to be to shut off our power multiple times a day a few times a week, and it comes back after we all switch our main items to our gas generators we all bought due to our weak power grid
Well presented and very much appreciated. I continue to be riveted by the topic. Cheers
Battery Flood isn't a bad one, because in some languages (like Spanish or Portuguese) drums are basically called battery as well.
Just checked out the latest Battery-pocolypse album and it absolutely slaps!!!
Don’t sound so shocked!
🤘
Reuse is the very best way to go with these things. 👍. Thanks for the vid..... Jim Bell (Australia)
Very well done! great topic! great execution! keep up the good work.
I appreciated the goofiness!
This is brilliant and one of the biggest slam dunk ideas I've seen from your channel so far. I think this is so obvious that government involvement should start now to incentivize reuse of EV batteries for grid storage as well as encourage manufacturers to adopt common protocols and standardizations to make them play more nicely together. Thanks for sharing, Matt!
To add: I think the brilliance here is that is makes a lot of sense to delay the time consuming and expensive recycling process as long as possible. When the battery is only at 80% capacity, it's better off repurposing, and only recycling once it's truly at end-of-life. Unless an EV battery is defective, this seems like the sensible next stop for them.
Great video, thanks Matt.
I think Dead Battery is the best name for your heavy metal band.
You should copyright the name 🤣
I tried to come up with a play on Assault & Battery, but I came up with nothing.
🤘
Thanks, Matt, great subject!
Great and valuable information.
Thank You
Love to see re-purpose solutions popping up for current and future problems.. this is like a retirement home for batteries.
It shouldn't the too hard for B2U (by the way it sounded like you were saying BTU every time you mentioned them 😀), to adapt their cabinetry to accommodate other sized battery packs, since the software already seems to work with alternatives.
Great approach. Very innovative.
Matt excellent information!
Nice to get some good news every now and then. Thanks.
What a great idea. Thanks for sharing it!
Excellent video and good idea for lower cost energy storage.
THe battery flood band gag gave me a good laugh. Thanks 😆
i built my own setup with used tesla batteries ($1k/ea) and used high efficiency panels ($100/ea) coming out of a solar farm routine replacement 4yrs ago. the panels still produce more than rated output and the tesla batteries are working perfectly. i am probably going to add 4 more batteries (20kw) as their price has come way down.
Did you do a you tube or any kind of DIY on that setup? I have taken 2 battery packs from junked Toyota Prius’s and want to get more of them to build a battery backup system for my home and find some cheap solar panels as you have. I would like to use as much of the equipment from the sleds of Prius batteries as possible to repurpose as much as possible. Let me know if at all possible the details of your setup and any issues you encountered along the way. Thanks in advance.
@@Monstur9 did you get my reply? i did this whole long reply and i just noticed it is not here!
I did similar things
Hi Matt! FYI, recycling now has 5 R's. The classic 3 as you've stated, reduce, reuse, recycle, and now the 2 new being refuse and repurpose. In the context of this video, repurposing is key!
Great content as always! Thanks!
Hi Matt, thanks again for another great video. Like you, I am interested to see where this is all heading. I became recently excited about Hydrogen Powerpaste. I hope, that are going to make a video about it, because I really like to hear your thoughts about the technology. Keep up the good work. Cheers
thanks You make very understandable for us NON-GEEK types
It's good to hear that the technology is so precise that all the cells in a battery age at the same rate so the only differences that need to be accommodated are between batteries.
Your metal band name is truly Undecided!
wow! I really enjoy this video, thx alot!
I really like the battery talk. That's why I'm here but I really want you to start a metal band.😂
Alternating the direct current. Pretty cool...
Hi, my battery works on my car around 4-5 years, without being a new one, but one which was re-charged ;))
Thank you Matt Farrell for your channel, it's always interesting to watch!
All the best! 👍💞
Matt's Metal Band Merch needs to be a thing (great video as always).
🤘
I have 2 model S batterys in my RV - use them daily for 3 years - work Great
I have been living off grid for 6 years now on 16000 watts of used solar panels and 4 packs of chevy volt batteries with 18000 watts of inverters. I run a normal 3 bedroom 2 bath house and charge a Chevy bolt car from my system. It's totally duable. My system paid itself off almost one year ago Including the price of the used Chevrolet volkcar as well.
Did you do a RUclips or DIY on this? I have accumulated a couple of Prius battery sleds and want to do essentially what you have done but want to learn from your experience if at all possible to keep from remaking the proverbial wheel as much as possible. I understand that the to manufacturers are probably very proprietary hence different but i want to use as much of their equipment as possible where it makes sense to and will probably to reprogram not to mention add more hardware as i only have the battery sled and not the computer that managed delivery of power to electric motor. I appreciate your post and hope to see a response if possible to my query.
@@Monstur9 I built my system on my own. The Toyota batteries are not good for building power walls . They're the wrong chemistry. I have RUclips videos under my name if you want to see a lot more about my system.
This has got to be one of the best uses of the Three R's (reuse)
Brilliant idea 👍🏼
Just found this channel. Looks like a winner.
Great reuse.
RECYCLE>REUSE>REBIRTH
I like it!
I really enjoy your videos Matt. Thanks. Always things I'm interested in. Maybe not invested in yet.....but would like to be.
As long as it can store energy from peak generation long enough to contribute during peak consumption it is viable on any scale. For wind that might be longer than solar, but if it works it works. Viability might trickle down to the level of your own power wall but that is still viability.
I wonder if these sorts of secondary uses will force a greater degree of standardization on EV makers.
Looking forward to this system rolling out across the world.
Personally, I wish we were less focussed on disposable design in EV installations. This idea will undoubtedly help
Often times the only thing people remember is the reverend's jokes, not the sermon! Great job and the jokes were VERY good!
why not put a solar panel roof over those containers to help keep them cooler
that is so cool!! great idea - awesome
Technology at work! I love to see it!
Thumbs up just for the metal band gags. 😂 but seriously thanks for this informative channel
Thanks Matt.
Thanks, Ron!
Nice idea and nice video
This is so cool for the future because the biggest drawback for EVs right now is that depreciation craters their trade in value. This ecosystem will lower the price of batteries for everyone, AND it means that you can sell your "dead" battery and mostly pay for a replacement!
Hi Matt! Love your videos! You touched on one of the hot topics in renewables: how digitalization (and AI/ML) is helping a lot in o&m operations for pv, wind, and bess. The list of companies proposing their advance analytics products is huge! Maybe it's worth a standalone video? (If you haven't done already, in that case sorry I missed it!)
Cheers
Good information
Battery business is going to get so streamlined and ever more sophisticated into the future.
I think now we need Matt to make a metal band
This feels like the perfect kind of solution for small scale towns far away from bigger cities.
Like with some of the other innovations around something like solar panels with growing/ herding livestock underneath you could tether 20 farms with battery solutions like this to have consistent power. And enough of these tap into grid. You could change the economics of the overall grid.
I actually got this video in my feed because I watched a video of a man that took an old Nissan leaf battery and used it for a shed. This is a much upgraded version but the idea is very similar.
Thanks!
Thanks, David!
Pollution comes from many different sources, and the solution will come from many sources. Good to see innovation at work. At this party, everyone with a solution is welcome. We are finally going in the right direction, so just keep going!
6:28 but it also cuts processing delay by 4 (though you may need to increase the number of samples in your buffer to prevent underruns if the processing can't be done in that shorter amount of time)
Enjoyed dead battery episode and your references to heavy metal. Less info is best. Bravo
I am the head program manager for the leading company in Battery software, Qnovo, and still see many problems with using old car batteries for energy storage use. There is poor, if any, understanding of the pack/module/cell health and a huge lack in data that is being used within these ESS facilities. It is correct to say they are less stressed, but the stress occurs at the high end of the charging phase and when plating is not controlled/mitigated. This is the case with all the ESS facilities is a lack of understanding when it comes to optimizing the charging phase to prevent this degradation and register the true amount of lithium plating that actually exists in each cell. A great example of this is the huge fire that happened in Moffett Field, CA where an entire facility went up in flames due to a lack in safety protocols and battery health tracking. It becomes even worse when using old cells because there is a much greater risk of failure and plating creating a shortage, which leads to explosions and fires. There has to be the proper understanding from companies like this who are not comprehending the risks or potential danger.
They have BMS access via CAN into each pack. Nissan Leaf packs report total pack state of health (remaining capacity) and per cell voltage. They can probably safely cycle them down to 60% of original capacity (40% degradation) before lithium plating starts being a danger of shorts through a separator. NMC chemistry in Leaf packs is much safer than NCA in Teslas, so even if one cell does fail it is much less likely to trigger total thermal runaway. They can probably catch that early by monitoring cell self discharge via diverging voltage levels relative rest of the pack. If you are a leading battery software company (never heard of you) you should know all this stuff.
I'm glad the old EV batteries will get used some more before they are recycled. So this process and step at reuse ♻is awesome. Recycling will come into its own soon enough. However Matt, you know what I'm going to say. Nuclear is key. If we were to use the Nuclear plants that the U.S. Pioneered in the 60's that reuse the spent fuel, look at all the spent fuel the U.S. already has they would be able to use. We would not have to mine any uranium to fuel the plants. Or would we? Something you could look into in a future video for sure. Great video, glad to see more life come out of these batteries. Thanks Matt.
Curious if you think this sort of end-of-life plan could be applied to home storage as well
Great vid as usual, but the real question is, when will your metal band release a new album?
Yes, just makes sense. Glad to hear the engineering challenges are being met.
This really look good. and i'm really optimistic about this kind of solutions to fill some niches on our low end energy storage solutions :)
As someone else said, it seems like it's just a short term solution only, kicking the can down the road for when the batteries will need to be disposed of one way or the other anyways.
We as a species really need to get better at actually coming up with long term plans
@@dx-ek4vr There are already effective recycling methods for 90-95% of batteries- they have to get much cheaper, but that's engineering dev work (and in progress)- it still leaves that small percentage that's a real problem, but there's reasonable hope there, too, and by the time the world has moved on to better chemistries (or even different energy solutions without NEEDING batteries), we might be left with a relatively manageable disposal problem.
At least 15 years ago I heard this idea. I have been waiting and waiting. It's about time. CLearly there were a lot of technical details to work out. The idea I heard was prius batteries as they were about the only ones on the road. And I think the idea was to keep it local in housing communities with a shed for the batteries to power the local homes. small scale but all over.
Very interesting, Matt, like many of your videos.
My main interest, which I'm surprised you didn't touch on, is:
Are these sorts of systems available for individual homes?
Tesla Power Walls are lovely, but they're also expensive. With the stability of our electrical grid, we don't need battery storage that often, so having fancy (expensive) storage solutions is usually hard for individuals to justify. But if cheap, recycled energy storage is available, that changes the whole home storage equation.
And not only would this benefit those individuals, but if grids were allowed to tap into some of that distributed storage, ALL of us could benefit. And, of course, the whole battery repurposing industry (as well as landfills) would benefit.
Matt, we need to be building transmission lines to distribute all this power. Without a capable grid, it's not going to work. Why isn't anyone talking about the failing grid infrastructure?
Sounds great. When can we start building more storage plants ????
Nice video and very informative.
If I have understood correctly, batteries are connected in parallel. Which inverters are used with which parameters?
I like it. Could it be used as stand alone units for a house or two??
I've never been a fan of Big Utilities with centralized generation and distribution points. The advent of relatively energy dense batteries seem, to me, to be the perfect solution to individualized energy collection, storage and usage not unlike the Tesla model wherein homeowners with Tesla Power Walls have opted into their energy re-distribution plan. I'm surprised that someone has not already copied the Tesla model using these recyclable batteries in lieu of the Tesla battery packs.
BTW, the BougeRV flexible solar panel seems like a real winner. I, normally, click past the commercials but I found this one truly fascinating since I own an RV that already has to of the first generation solar panels installed on it. Depending upon the performance of these flexible panels I may give serious consideration to replacing my old panels with an array of these newer ones.
Good info, thanks. Also interested in the portable RV solar panels. Could us them on my RV. Will check them out.
It seems that it is already decided. and this is good.
Looking forward to the band's first single, Acid Flooded
Batt Ferrel / Ferrule is your "metal band".
This is probably a good opportunity for companies like redwood materials to point out that the batteries that are too weak for a grid storage can be easily recycled and put back into the system for new batteries, completing the cycle.
boot the intro song! dubstep was in like 2 decades ago! lol Much love from Rochester