Nice video Sean - you showed everything clearly, and did the work with what most budget DIY guys have access to. I also like that you showed cleaning the rotors down too - many people forget to do this, and the manufacturing oils cause issues. Only 1 suggestion - next time you're in the $2 shop, or at Bunnings, buy an S-hook used to hold up hanging pots. Makes it easy to hook into the caliper bolt hole, and up onto the coil spring. Now I've got a long story, but it will hopefully educate a few people if they want to read it to the end. As well as Commodores, I've driven Falcons for a long time, having company cars since EL that were mostly Falcons. Brake "rotor warp" goes way back to the ED/VR era, and never really got better. However, I have learnt a lot about it over the years, and changed the way I drive, which has prevented it. Other colleagues had issues too - once I educated them, they no longer had problems. How I discovered it was a bit of a story, across 4 cars and nearly 10 years. It started when Ford didn't want to fix the fronts under warranty on an AU Futura. Like my boss had done 7-8 years earlier with his VR rotors, I took them off myself, and put them on the lathe at work. The dial gauge showed they weren't warped at all - they were dead even all the way around, with the needle only flickering back & forth slightly over a full revolution. I decided to skim them anyway, and the shudder went away. It returned about a year later, but the car was almost up on lease, so I didn't worry. Then the same thing happened with the BA. Ford swapped them the first time, but refused when it returned. Once again I pulled them off myself, and checked them with the dial gauge - still straight. But what I did see, was what appeared to be inclusions in the rotor surface, with "tails" coming off them, like comets. I have seen this many more times since, on OEM rotors on both Ford and Holden. So I skimmed those rotors ever so slightly, and the shudder went. It returned a bit later, and same thing - straight as, but with surface inconsistencies. I refaced them several times before the lease was up on that car. It was around this time my in-law's WK was doing the same thing, and it too had straight rotors. But there was staining on the rotor surface, and when you ran a pad over it by hand (off the car) it seemed to grip where the stain was, and slide easily around the rest of the rotor. As I wasn't at work, I simply sanded all of the front rotor surfaces with a DA in the hope that it was something on the surface. It worked, and the problem went away for years. Then I got a very late BA2 and it was no different to the BA and AU2 before it. But by this stage I was working for a Tier1supplier to Ford, and spent a lot of my work time with the engineers in both Norlane/Geelong, and Barry Rd. One day having lunch at a pub in Geelong (the Commo Hotel ironically 😂) I tongue-in-cheek suggested that they should be able to fix brakes by now. This resulted in a discussion that went back to the days of asbestos, and "organic" as well as "inorganic" experiments that pad makers went through. "Metal" pads were also discussed. He asked me if I did any high speed stops - like did I use a freeway, then come to the end at a red light on the off-ramp. Why yes, both ends of my work trip were like that. He then suggested that the heat from the stop could be causing the resins to outgas (and yes, I knew even back then that they did that), and that when I come to a complete stop, the heat between the pad & rotor bonds some of those resins to the rotor surface, creating a sticky spot. Yes, this seemed very plausible, and had also been proven years prior when slotted rotors were used to allow this outgassing to escape. But I couldn't put slotted rotors on a standard BA2 under warranty could I? He then gave me this advice: When you pull up after a long stop like at the end of the freeway, don't just stop on the spot. Stop a car length earlier, and creep up for about 50cm, then stop for 2-3 seconds, then repeat. When stopped, don't squeeze the pedal hard - just enough to keep it from rolling forward, as you repeat the process. The theory behind it is that you're allowing the rotor to cool more evenly (so that if it wanted to "warp" it would be less inclined) and that you didn't have a single hot-spot holding those outgassing resins against the same spot on the rotor. In practice I found it worked. So I started doing this, and for the rest of that BA2's life, it never had any more brake issues. I explained this to my colleagues who all had shudder issues in the past. With their following BFs, VZs, VEs and early FGs, the change in driving behaviour pretty much eliminated the issue for all of us. I got my FG in 2011. It was under warranty for 3 years (well, 100,000km, which came a bit earlier) so I couldn't do anything about the brakes, but I drove how that engineer suggested, and never had an issue. Even towing the car trailer all up & down the east coast with a vintage Chev on it, there were no "warps" at all - even after hard stops when morons just have to be in front of a perceived slow vehicle.(And to give you an idea of the abuse that towing that weight can do, it got the diff bushes done twice under warranty). Once it was out of warranty I changed to the Hi-Q ceramic pads and put a set of slotted rotors on it. They're still on the car to this day (370K on it, and around 250K on those rotors) and I have not had any shudder issues caused by rotors or pads. It's on the 4th set of those pads now, and the rotors are still well above the minimum thickness too. It pains me to think how many "warped" rotors have been tossed without being checked for straightness. Condemned because of resins that have outgassed and bonded into the surface, causing sticky spots. Or machined too heavily to clear the surface issues, rendering them too thin to be legal. Whilst rotors do warp (and I have managed to warp a few of them driving on the limit on a track) the problem isn't half as bad as the detractors like to make out that it is. And lastly, whilst I've never had to adjust the booster piston rod on my cars, I have had to do it on a couple of 3rd gen Commodores (which also ran the PBR booster & master combo like the Fords of the era). Early ones never had that, but when PBR stopped making these parts in Australia, the quality and tolerance stack-up necessitated the adjustable rod. I often wonder if the nut can move simply by vibration alone, so I put a bit of Loctite 222 on the ones that I had to adjust. We still have one of those cars in the family, and it's been fine for the last 16 odd years since I did that.
I love seeing your posts pop up from time to time. I know that Jeff and Kurt from @TorqHubMedia here on RUclips are keen to interview you on their podcast. If you ever get the chance would be great to hear. We all learn something just about everytime you post and it’s been that way for decades. Thanks.
Thanks for the comment! Funnily enough I actually started doing the 'creep forward' thing after pulling up from a long stop, because I figured you're holding red-hot pads against 1 specific part of the rotor face, whilst the other areas are allowed to cool. But the resin outgassing bit is new - if true that's fascinating!
@@FuManchu5ltr then why give it a different name. have you ever heard of a car having four rotor brakes? I haven't. I have only heard of four disk brakes.
excellent video. my bf had this problem. I took it to a brake place and they couldn't seem to fix it. took it to a local mechanic and he said "yep, a falcon, I'll wind the booster" problem was immediately fixed. went back to the brake place and told them and they said it was stupid and wouldn't do anything. Local independent mechanics are true car whisperers.
Nice video! Only one thing I would add (more aimed at locations with rust issues) is to ensure the mating surface of the hub is spotless - even something fractions of a mm thickness can throw out a brand new rotor. Just get in there and use some wire brushes, emery cloth etc. and then brake clean away any residue. Also important in rusty climates is to put just a slight smear of anti-seize on that mating surface to ensure next time you can get the rotor off if you need to service them again.
great video .i been a mechanic for 35 years and i had this problem in my bf falcon . i was told that i needed a new booster but i thought i do my own investigation and i found something very interesting...... the more u drive the hotter your brakes get also the brake fluid gets hotter and its expands it needs to go somewhere so they put a tiny little port that allows excess brake fluid back to reservoir . this port is open when master cylinder piston is in off position (food off pedal) as soon as u put pressure on pedal and piston moves forward it blocks port and allow presure to brakes if your pushrod is adjusted too tight and makes contact with piston as soon the piston moves forward it blocks port and u building pressure ...it might take a while around an hour i believe its called compensating port and its and the purpose of this port is to prevent this problem i lot of falcons came from factory with this problem .this is fords fault i hope this helps be safe don't take chances with brakes if not sure what u doing get a mechanic or some1 that knows to help u cherrrs every1 😛😛
Thank you ... has happened to me (BF 2007 wagon) and was going to get Booster rebuilt. Had previously backed off push rod fractionally and all new flexibke brake lines, calipers, pads and fluid flush. Detected some binding in hotter weather so will revisit push rod setting. At what point is there deterioration in master cylinder rubbers potentially blocking port that should be replaced or resleeved/rebuilt?
Being in the brake and clutch manufacturing industry at the start of my career, I’m amazed how many mechanics and home mechanics don’t know how a mastervac booster actually works. Firstly , BA brake shudder is a bit more complex than you mention. Its root cause it’s the booster pushrod length but the reason behind it is never been mentioned. The actual issue isn’t the pushrod length adjustment from factory (To correctly do this adjustment you need a pushrod depth gauge which you can’t buy readily)The actual root cause it the boosters pushrod length is set at atmospheric pressure ( Obviously). The problem is when vacuum is applied to BOTH side of the booster ,ie when the brake pedal is NOT applied the booster actually shrinks . The problem is the lack of wall thickness of the booster . These boosters are very light weight compared to older generations boosters. The sucking in of the booster shell then makes the pushrod push against the brake master as the brake master which is attached to the booster shell gets pulled inwards thus applying sufficient brake force to create a slight brake drag. I was presented with a country car from new (2002)that would literally cook the brakes because it was always at 100km/hr . Connecting. A brake pressure sensors on all 4 wheels I noticed that the brake pressure would be zero at engine off and increase to 40psi with engine running. This would actually hold pressure for a significant time after engine off. 40 psi is plenty enough to create drag and at 100 km/hr there isn’t sufficient airflow to counteract the heat being generated Had PBR made the booster with thicker shell materials or an addition master to body bracket this issue may never had happened. As for the phenolic pistons they actually swelled (especially chemicals)due to their material make up. I’ve seen these pistons that swollen it took an air intensifier to blow them from the caliper bodies ( in excessive of 500psi) and when these pistons ejected it was like a bomb going off. Every caliper that had these pistons we removed and replaced with steel pistons. I have the correct way to adjust this pushrod length and measurement but I make more money from people attempting it and making a hash of it. 😂
You mean one of the H shaped depth gauges that you can by from any one of 1000 places on the net for under $30. Like the one I got a couple of years back? I've also been told by someone in the brake manufacturing industry that the Falcon from BA onwards is capable of upto approx 2mm preload on the main piston. A full turn on the pushrod adjustment nut is about 1mm in length change and its often reported 1 to 2 turns fixes the problem. So what you are saying is that the vacuum causes the front case of the booster to shrunk by upto 3 to 4mm?
When I do any brake work on my BA XR6 ute I always grease the caliper slide pins with Bendix grease... Something a few brake specialists have recommended to me over the years.
If you have a warped rotor the best thing to do is replace. One of the things I learned while in the Brake industry is that the overheating that causes a warped rotor permanently changes the structure of the steel, under an X-ray it looks like stripes radiating outward from the centre. Its called Disc Thickness Variation and the Rotor is effectively programmed to warp again. You can machine a new face on the rotor but the warp will re-emerge once you get the rotor hot
I'd be lubricating the caliper slides before even considering adjusting the length of the master cylinder pushrod. If your brakes were dragging you'd know about it from the smell. I'd get your braking effort tested on a machine and see if your pushrod adjustment is correct too.
Great advice Sean. The booster problem was a major issue i had on my BA XR6 for many years. Pads, rotors etc were changed and no one ever figured it out. Finally someone made a quick adjustment and POW it was magic. I'm sure now that this is more commonly known, it will save owners thousands. Great work...
Well my 2 bob. When you change your rotors, you need to wire brush the hub to get the surface rust off as when you put your new rotor or even old rotor back on it can be not 100% square with the hub because of a bit of loose rust falling in behind. Same for when you rotate your tyres you remove the rust off the rotor surface around the studs as it can make your rim not 100% in line. Other things that cause your rotors to warp are the original rotors on the Falcons and Territories are soft and normally warp quicker than good brands of rotors like DBA that are harder. Next when people drive and brake hard or use brakes down a hill for a long time and come to a stop at traffic lights, they will hold their foot hard on the brake quite hard. Better to put the car into neutral and use the hand brake to hold the car. Same for railway crossings. You are heating just one section of the disk to double the heat of the other 5/6th of the disk. Eventually causes premature warping. If do not like the handbrake well sit a bit further back from where you need to stop and hold your brake just enough to hold the car and let it creep forward just a few inches at a time. Same for having hot rotors / brakes and driving through deep puddles of water as it warps your disks quicker.
The Golden Eye music is unlocking core memories. I'm looking at buying a Territory soon (diesel model however), you're getting a lot of car for the money these days
Did these at least one a week to fix the problem. BUT they did come back sometimes and need more adjustment to the point that you run out of adjustment. If you look at the place of manufacture of the booster and master cylinder it tells you the problem. AU and back made in AUSTRALIA by PBR BA on made in Thailand. Rubber expansion/ stretch I think is the problem.
Nice video Sean. The General CT pads are not that great though and you will find the same thing will happen in 12 months time. I recommend using a heavy duty pad they can tolerate the heat from large heavier cars braking and at the same time keep the rotor face true. Yes they generate a bit of dust but the braking is so much better even for a daily drive.
Did you say that before you go onto the road after changing the brakes, you should pump the brake pedal a few times to reset the piston/pad positions? This is very important because without doing this, your pedal might hit the floor without giving you any appreciable brake force, and nobody in their right mind wants that. The first brake rebuild I did on a motorbike, I thought I had fully pumped everything into their new positions, only for the brake lever to go all the way to the handlebar. Fortunately I was only going slowly, but it was definitely an "oh 💩" moment. The problem sorted itself out pretty quickly and the brakes were pretty good, but the first few applications were a bit of a worry. The second bike brake job I did wasn't a problem (I had learned my lesson), and when I replaced the front rotors and pads on my Commodore last year, they worked flawlessly from the very start, though I still took it easy during the burnishing process. On my way to work the next morning, someone did something stupid in front of me, and I had to jump on the brakes. They did the job damned well, and I'm sure my old warped rotors wouldn't have stopped me in time. I'm using DBA standard rotors and DBA ceramic pads. They're inexpensive and they work really well, though I wouldn't get the cross-drilled rotors because I've heard bad things about cross-drilling making rotors (any brand) more likely to crack.
Great video as usual! That territory is neat! These Fords are easy to replace rotors and pads! Many good suggestions and advice in the comments! Those front rotors looked OK Thick and flat you can get a run out tester for them I got one for my enduro motor bikes it was 30$ au from UK I have a BA (approaching 400Kms) with occasional brake shudder its seems to do it if I park on the wet ground and the discs get rust on them then it takes a while for the pads to remove the rust! PS The hand brake in this BA sedan has been repaired by every man and his dog! It works for about 1 month after every repair then never again, your video makes me want to have a look myself !
Nice video mate good job. On my old bf xr8 is found that once i started to feel a pulse in the pedal or wheel, if i loosened and retorqued the wheels it would stop the pulsing.
In 35 years of being a qualified mechanic I have not once encountered a booster that required adjustment. Missing or worn out reaction discs and pads will cause the symptom you suggest as the discs are what gives you the pedal feel . If you suspect dragging brakes you crack a bleeder. This should instantly correct any dragging. If the system maintains hydraulic pressure to drag the brakes the master cylinder itself needs inspection. Considering the residual crap under the clip that holds the lid on it has had some filthy fluid on it. I agree with the assessment of calipers as with harsh use they flex and apply side loading to the pads. The main cause of disc warping on these models is poor quality parts and shoddy instillation. I’ve measured some cheap rotors and brand new they are already at minimum thickness. The fix is to clean hub faces to a shine, replace rotors and pads with quality parts and always flush the fluid.
The booster adjustment in falcons and territorys was a service bulletin from ford. It is well known. Most of the time they came from the factory with an incorrect adjustment
Couple of things, undo the brake fluid reservoir slightly when pushing the caliper pistons back in. Also out anti-squeel brake paste on the hub centre ring perimeter
Good stuff Sean! I have to remember this myself, I've got a 2015 FGX XR8 which I don't think I've noticed this problem on but I'll certainly have to keep it in mind if something develops.
It's generally not warping of the rotors it's uneven wear of the face of the rotor (disc thickness variation)usually caused by excessive run out of the hub. Will be interesting to see if you have fixed it or if it comes back over time. Worn lower control arm bushes also produce shudder, You put new rotors on it fixes it for a while and then the shudder returns.
Thanks Sean - will be doing my rotors all round on my BA XR6 shortly. Another thing I have picked up is that the mounting face between hub and rotor should be given a light wire brush so the two faces sit as flush as possible - can’t imagine it makes much difference, but while the old rotors are off, easy done - I’m also replacing a lot of bushes etc in all the suspension at 290,000 kms it is needed and will all help the smoothness of ride - cheers
Caliper slide pins need inspection for wear and lubrication ,, lube with silver grade anti sieze or ceramic grease .... INSPECT caliper slide pin bores ,, these can be roughly machined and catch the slide pin. remedy = hone out the bores .
When fitting new rotors, always make sure to clean any crud off of you wheel hub, and if you have the tools, check for hub run-out, as it too can lead to brake shudder... The vehicle manufacturer might have a spec available for this, but if none is available, a rough guide of under 0.02mm for a small flange and 0.05mm for a larger flange should be okay.
Good job mate I have wondered in the past if it would help to do the adjustment youve just done to put a little piece of Play-Doh on the end of the rod reassemble it then take it away again to see if there’s clearance and if so how much……. They do that sometimes with pistons and cylinder heads Also There’s a company down here in Victoria called PartsWise. They make an aftermarket internally modified brake booster for the BA BF etc. It’s about 750 bucks and they claim that they have internally fixed the issue of dragging brakes through a re-design of the booster internals….. I don’t know if that works as my BA has not had that issue but I have had shudder issue due to calipers needing a new kit etc …… PartsWise also make upgraded slide pins for the front calipers that incorporates a rubber bush Failing that there is also such a thing kicking around called a double diaphragm brake booster. I don’t know if that would help but it might.
Gee, you're brave putting an unknown brand rotor on the family hauler. My VT has DBA T2 slotted rotors all around, and the 1st thing we did to my partners VE was DBA T2 slots on the front and Bendix ultimate pads. Also, I've inherited a 2016 FGX work ute, for what it is, and the toolbox tray it's got it does alright
Ford (Australia) and Holden warped brakes are because of poor quality rotors. New 2003 Holden VY brakes skimmed 3 times under warranty. Replace rotors with after market good quality and no more issues. Second hand 2004 VZ purchased a couple of years ago - warped rotors. Replaced with after market good quality rotors - no more problems. Historic forums showed this was a common problem on both Fords and Holden - with new cars - so a rotor issue. Never shows up us car is only city driven and that does not use serious braking. Slots on rotor are based on the cooling configuration internally of the vented brakes - so slots direction depends on brake rotor brand. Some do not care, but you CANNOT just state which way they should go - CHECK your specific rotors.
The VT commodore used to suffer from brake shudder when it came out, I remember hearing something about the quality of the disks Holden used and when you would hit some water if they were hot it would warp them, I think Holden changed the type of disks and the problem was fixed
4 ways to measure /adjust booster pin to master cyl clearance 1/inexpensive tool ..2/ vernier depth measure ment 3/ wind booster rod out till master rides on it then backoff the adjustment ...4/ place washers between master and booster bolts
Old boys Territory has 200,000klm & those huge vented front & rear brake assemblies operate as good as ever!! Took Ford a while but the brakes are top notch in the SZ series! 👌
Something that's always good to know is you can take the Territory front brake caliper bracket and rotors and the Territory rear brakes and put them on the BA/BF. The extra width on the front makes a big difference and the rears are then vented and a larger brake pad. You do need to cut the rear knuckle back plate to allow the caliper to fit nicely. I did the upgrade for $300 all up.
Wow, so many radically different comments on root cause. Fascinating. Then of course there’s the old towing the boat and backing the hot brakes straight into the ocean.
Not sure if your query has been answered or not, but the handbrake should be disengaged when removing the rotors, or else you won't get them off at all
@@MotoringBoxTV Everytime I buy one I immediately change out front and rear rotors (unless they have been done by previous owner), oil, filter(s) etc as part of the car purchase ... and to be honest as you've shown ... it's an easy DIY project and cheap in the grand scheme of things ... keep up the great video's 👍
Just a heads up, that looks like the low profile jack from SuperCheapAuto that was recently recalled, make sure to check the batch number on yours to see if it's effected!
From experience, the main cause of rotor warp on these BA-onwards Falcon/Territory, is usually from flogged bushes in the front suspension arms. PS: note that as the rotor heats up under hard braking, don’t be alarmed by the buzzing/vibration you hear/feel, as this is from the slots in the rotors. Also why I’ve stopped buying these for street cars. Just annoying, and greatly reduces pad life.
Gday Sean . I have the exact same Territory, quick question, when braking does your 6 speed trans down shift to help with braking 6,5,4 mine does just checking if yours is the same . I think I read in the manual it being braking assist , love to know your thoughts cheers Bob
Yes, the logic Ford or ZF built in to the gearbox is quite remarkable. You can tell its doing everything it can to maximise fuel economy - and it never puts a foot wrong.
That's referred to as " pad knock off" when pad doesn't come off disc face. I over come it buy put cross drill rotors on, it's the heat to that warped them two.
man my 2010 g6e has terrible brakes had fluid replaced front rotors machined good pads but u have to really push the pedal in to get it to pull up my 20 year old rodeo brakes better
Push rod adjustment is an old fix, good advise but your using the torque wrench wrong like a tyre shop, you went way past the click which upsets calibration. N😊o inspection of caliper slides or brake fluid, didn't clean hub surface, you assumed the hand brake adjustment would be the same and those spider washers that every mechanic dislike are missing. As for testing,wheels up, start car, press pedal a few times and check for binding, if all good take for run and bed in pads to rotors gently as rotors have a coating, then recheck for binding, but otherwise a good job
Heres one that I have never come across in my life .... Mazda Tribute V6, Auto, 2004 - when engine hot/up to temp brakes are fine - when cold almost zero brakes all the way to the floor/pump like hell to get any braking. Brake fluid level is fine. Any ideas/solutions welcome cos it got me Fkd...
Not come across that before, but I wonder if there's a vacuum leak? If you brake multiple times when it's hot does the brake assistance start to fade away again?
@@MotoringBoxTV Thanks for your reply, like you i have never seen this before. (49 years around cars/car yard ownership/15 years marine engineering) Crazily no, when hot you can pump your leg off and there is zero fade, when cold almost to the firewall, fluid levels are good. I have a mechanic coming around on Saturday, will keep you posted.
I don’t know why fords do this I think my xd was the only car I never replaced the rotors My last car fg Ute it started at 60k so I replaced them at 80 and the new ones lasted about 30 k before they started shaking The Colorado I have been driving now and has 220 k still on origin brakes I did buy rotors for it when it was at 160 but still on the shelf
Nice video Sean - you showed everything clearly, and did the work with what most budget DIY guys have access to. I also like that you showed cleaning the rotors down too - many people forget to do this, and the manufacturing oils cause issues. Only 1 suggestion - next time you're in the $2 shop, or at Bunnings, buy an S-hook used to hold up hanging pots. Makes it easy to hook into the caliper bolt hole, and up onto the coil spring.
Now I've got a long story, but it will hopefully educate a few people if they want to read it to the end.
As well as Commodores, I've driven Falcons for a long time, having company cars since EL that were mostly Falcons. Brake "rotor warp" goes way back to the ED/VR era, and never really got better. However, I have learnt a lot about it over the years, and changed the way I drive, which has prevented it. Other colleagues had issues too - once I educated them, they no longer had problems.
How I discovered it was a bit of a story, across 4 cars and nearly 10 years. It started when Ford didn't want to fix the fronts under warranty on an AU Futura. Like my boss had done 7-8 years earlier with his VR rotors, I took them off myself, and put them on the lathe at work. The dial gauge showed they weren't warped at all - they were dead even all the way around, with the needle only flickering back & forth slightly over a full revolution. I decided to skim them anyway, and the shudder went away. It returned about a year later, but the car was almost up on lease, so I didn't worry.
Then the same thing happened with the BA. Ford swapped them the first time, but refused when it returned. Once again I pulled them off myself, and checked them with the dial gauge - still straight. But what I did see, was what appeared to be inclusions in the rotor surface, with "tails" coming off them, like comets. I have seen this many more times since, on OEM rotors on both Ford and Holden. So I skimmed those rotors ever so slightly, and the shudder went. It returned a bit later, and same thing - straight as, but with surface inconsistencies. I refaced them several times before the lease was up on that car.
It was around this time my in-law's WK was doing the same thing, and it too had straight rotors. But there was staining on the rotor surface, and when you ran a pad over it by hand (off the car) it seemed to grip where the stain was, and slide easily around the rest of the rotor. As I wasn't at work, I simply sanded all of the front rotor surfaces with a DA in the hope that it was something on the surface. It worked, and the problem went away for years.
Then I got a very late BA2 and it was no different to the BA and AU2 before it. But by this stage I was working for a Tier1supplier to Ford, and spent a lot of my work time with the engineers in both Norlane/Geelong, and Barry Rd. One day having lunch at a pub in Geelong (the Commo Hotel ironically 😂) I tongue-in-cheek suggested that they should be able to fix brakes by now.
This resulted in a discussion that went back to the days of asbestos, and "organic" as well as "inorganic" experiments that pad makers went through. "Metal" pads were also discussed. He asked me if I did any high speed stops - like did I use a freeway, then come to the end at a red light on the off-ramp. Why yes, both ends of my work trip were like that. He then suggested that the heat from the stop could be causing the resins to outgas (and yes, I knew even back then that they did that), and that when I come to a complete stop, the heat between the pad & rotor bonds some of those resins to the rotor surface, creating a sticky spot. Yes, this seemed very plausible, and had also been proven years prior when slotted rotors were used to allow this outgassing to escape. But I couldn't put slotted rotors on a standard BA2 under warranty could I? He then gave me this advice:
When you pull up after a long stop like at the end of the freeway, don't just stop on the spot. Stop a car length earlier, and creep up for about 50cm, then stop for 2-3 seconds, then repeat. When stopped, don't squeeze the pedal hard - just enough to keep it from rolling forward, as you repeat the process.
The theory behind it is that you're allowing the rotor to cool more evenly (so that if it wanted to "warp" it would be less inclined) and that you didn't have a single hot-spot holding those outgassing resins against the same spot on the rotor. In practice I found it worked.
So I started doing this, and for the rest of that BA2's life, it never had any more brake issues. I explained this to my colleagues who all had shudder issues in the past. With their following BFs, VZs, VEs and early FGs, the change in driving behaviour pretty much eliminated the issue for all of us.
I got my FG in 2011. It was under warranty for 3 years (well, 100,000km, which came a bit earlier) so I couldn't do anything about the brakes, but I drove how that engineer suggested, and never had an issue. Even towing the car trailer all up & down the east coast with a vintage Chev on it, there were no "warps" at all - even after hard stops when morons just have to be in front of a perceived slow vehicle.(And to give you an idea of the abuse that towing that weight can do, it got the diff bushes done twice under warranty). Once it was out of warranty I changed to the Hi-Q ceramic pads and put a set of slotted rotors on it. They're still on the car to this day (370K on it, and around 250K on those rotors) and I have not had any shudder issues caused by rotors or pads. It's on the 4th set of those pads now, and the rotors are still well above the minimum thickness too.
It pains me to think how many "warped" rotors have been tossed without being checked for straightness. Condemned because of resins that have outgassed and bonded into the surface, causing sticky spots. Or machined too heavily to clear the surface issues, rendering them too thin to be legal.
Whilst rotors do warp (and I have managed to warp a few of them driving on the limit on a track) the problem isn't half as bad as the detractors like to make out that it is.
And lastly, whilst I've never had to adjust the booster piston rod on my cars, I have had to do it on a couple of 3rd gen Commodores (which also ran the PBR booster & master combo like the Fords of the era). Early ones never had that, but when PBR stopped making these parts in Australia, the quality and tolerance stack-up necessitated the adjustable rod. I often wonder if the nut can move simply by vibration alone, so I put a bit of Loctite 222 on the ones that I had to adjust. We still have one of those cars in the family, and it's been fine for the last 16 odd years since I did that.
I love seeing your posts pop up from time to time.
I know that Jeff and Kurt from @TorqHubMedia here on RUclips are keen to interview you on their podcast. If you ever get the chance would be great to hear.
We all learn something just about everytime you post and it’s been that way for decades. Thanks.
Thanks for the comment! Funnily enough I actually started doing the 'creep forward' thing after pulling up from a long stop, because I figured you're holding red-hot pads against 1 specific part of the rotor face, whilst the other areas are allowed to cool. But the resin outgassing bit is new - if true that's fascinating!
they are disks not rotors. Great idea your $2 shop tip.
@@ianmontgomery7534 Same thing.
@@FuManchu5ltr then why give it a different name. have you ever heard of a car having four rotor brakes? I haven't. I have only heard of four disk brakes.
This was awesome! Never realised there was adjustment in the brake booster!
excellent video. my bf had this problem. I took it to a brake place and they couldn't seem to fix it. took it to a local mechanic and he said "yep, a falcon, I'll wind the booster" problem was immediately fixed. went back to the brake place and told them and they said it was stupid and wouldn't do anything. Local independent mechanics are true car whisperers.
Man that Goldeneye Temple music slams
Caverns, but close enough!
@@MotoringBoxTV clearly it’s been too long since the glory days
Nice video! Only one thing I would add (more aimed at locations with rust issues) is to ensure the mating surface of the hub is spotless - even something fractions of a mm thickness can throw out a brand new rotor. Just get in there and use some wire brushes, emery cloth etc. and then brake clean away any residue. Also important in rusty climates is to put just a slight smear of anti-seize on that mating surface to ensure next time you can get the rotor off if you need to service them again.
great video .i been a mechanic for 35 years and i had this problem in my bf falcon . i was told that i needed a new booster but i thought i do my own investigation and i found something very interesting......
the more u drive the hotter your brakes get also the brake fluid gets hotter and its expands it needs to go somewhere so they put a tiny little port that allows excess brake fluid back to reservoir . this port is open when master cylinder piston is in off position (food off pedal) as soon as u put pressure on pedal and piston moves forward it blocks port and allow presure to brakes
if your pushrod is adjusted too tight and makes contact with piston as soon the piston moves forward it blocks port and u building pressure ...it might take a while around an hour
i believe its called compensating port and its and the purpose of this port is to prevent this problem
i lot of falcons came from factory with this problem .this is fords fault
i hope this helps
be safe don't take chances with brakes if not sure what u doing get a mechanic or some1 that knows to help u
cherrrs every1 😛😛
Thank you ... has happened to me (BF 2007 wagon) and was going to get Booster rebuilt. Had previously backed off push rod fractionally and all new flexibke brake lines, calipers, pads and fluid flush. Detected some binding in hotter weather so will revisit push rod setting. At what point is there deterioration in master cylinder rubbers potentially blocking port that should be replaced or resleeved/rebuilt?
Being in the brake and clutch manufacturing industry at the start of my career, I’m amazed how many mechanics and home mechanics don’t know how a mastervac booster actually works.
Firstly , BA brake shudder is a bit more complex than you mention. Its root cause it’s the booster pushrod length but the reason behind it is never been mentioned. The actual issue isn’t the pushrod length adjustment from factory (To correctly do this adjustment you need a pushrod depth gauge which you can’t buy readily)The actual root cause it the boosters pushrod length is set at atmospheric pressure ( Obviously). The problem is when vacuum is applied to BOTH side of the booster ,ie when the brake pedal is NOT applied the booster actually shrinks . The problem is the lack of wall thickness of the booster . These boosters are very light weight compared to older generations boosters. The sucking in of the booster shell then makes the pushrod push against the brake master as the brake master which is attached to the booster shell gets pulled inwards thus applying sufficient brake force to create a slight brake drag.
I was presented with a country car from new (2002)that would literally cook the brakes because it was always at 100km/hr . Connecting. A brake pressure sensors on all 4 wheels I noticed that the brake pressure would be zero at engine off and increase to 40psi with engine running. This would actually hold pressure for a significant time after engine off. 40 psi is plenty enough to create drag and at 100 km/hr there isn’t sufficient airflow to counteract the heat being generated
Had PBR made the booster with thicker shell materials or an addition master to body bracket this issue may never had happened.
As for the phenolic pistons they actually swelled (especially chemicals)due to their material make up. I’ve seen these pistons that swollen it took an air intensifier to blow them from the caliper bodies ( in excessive of 500psi) and when these pistons ejected it was like a bomb going off. Every caliper that had these pistons we removed and replaced with steel pistons.
I have the correct way to adjust this pushrod length and measurement but I make more money from people attempting it and making a hash of it. 😂
You mean one of the H shaped depth gauges that you can by from any one of 1000 places on the net for under $30. Like the one I got a couple of years back?
I've also been told by someone in the brake manufacturing industry that the Falcon from BA onwards is capable of upto approx 2mm preload on the main piston. A full turn on the pushrod adjustment nut is about 1mm in length change and its often reported 1 to 2 turns fixes the problem. So what you are saying is that the vacuum causes the front case of the booster to shrunk by upto 3 to 4mm?
When I do any brake work on my BA XR6 ute I always grease the caliper slide pins with Bendix grease... Something a few brake specialists have recommended to me over the years.
Nice work. I certainly wasn't aware of the master cylinder adjustment nut. First thing in the day and I've learnt something new 🙂
If you have a warped rotor the best thing to do is replace. One of the things I learned while in the Brake industry is that the overheating that causes a warped rotor permanently changes the structure of the steel, under an X-ray it looks like stripes radiating outward from the centre. Its called Disc Thickness Variation and the Rotor is effectively programmed to warp again. You can machine a new face on the rotor but the warp will re-emerge once you get the rotor hot
Another great vid... Hope you have better luck with the cheapo discs than I did on my FG. I will only ever use DBA now.
I'd be lubricating the caliper slides before even considering adjusting the length of the master cylinder pushrod. If your brakes were dragging you'd know about it from the smell. I'd get your braking effort tested on a machine and see if your pushrod adjustment is correct too.
Great advice Sean. The booster problem was a major issue i had on my BA XR6 for many years. Pads, rotors etc were changed and no one ever figured it out. Finally someone made a quick adjustment and POW it was magic. I'm sure now that this is more commonly known, it will save owners thousands. Great work...
Well my 2 bob. When you change your rotors, you need to wire brush the hub to get the surface rust off as when you put your new rotor or even old rotor back on it can be not 100% square with the hub because of a bit of loose rust falling in behind. Same for when you rotate your tyres you remove the rust off the rotor surface around the studs as it can make your rim not 100% in line. Other things that cause your rotors to warp are the original rotors on the Falcons and Territories are soft and normally warp quicker than good brands of rotors like DBA that are harder. Next when people drive and brake hard or use brakes down a hill for a long time and come to a stop at traffic lights, they will hold their foot hard on the brake quite hard. Better to put the car into neutral and use the hand brake to hold the car. Same for railway crossings. You are heating just one section of the disk to double the heat of the other 5/6th of the disk. Eventually causes premature warping. If do not like the handbrake well sit a bit further back from where you need to stop and hold your brake just enough to hold the car and let it creep forward just a few inches at a time. Same for having hot rotors / brakes and driving through deep puddles of water as it warps your disks quicker.
The Golden Eye music is unlocking core memories.
I'm looking at buying a Territory soon (diesel model however), you're getting a lot of car for the money these days
As always, a great vid. I’m surprised you didn’t buy Australian made DBA discs
Did these at least one a week to fix the problem.
BUT they did come back sometimes and need more adjustment to the point that you run out of adjustment.
If you look at the place of manufacture of the booster and master cylinder it tells you the problem.
AU and back made in AUSTRALIA by PBR BA on made in Thailand.
Rubber expansion/ stretch I think is the problem.
5:45 not sure if Bendix have changed lately but I always used to get excess brake dust from there pads.
Thanks for the content.
Cheers Pat
Nice video Sean. The General CT pads are not that great though and you will find the same thing will happen in 12 months time.
I recommend using a heavy duty pad they can tolerate the heat from large heavier cars braking and at the same time keep the rotor face true. Yes they generate a bit of dust but the braking is so much better even for a daily drive.
CT are fine, but the 4x4 pads are recommended for SUV, which the Terrys fall into.
Thanks for making this video, 2 out of the 4 FG's that I own have this, cheers
Dude, I've heard NFS music for a while now which is cool but now you're rocking 007GoldenEye 😂 Gold!!!!
Did you say that before you go onto the road after changing the brakes, you should pump the brake pedal a few times to reset the piston/pad positions? This is very important because without doing this, your pedal might hit the floor without giving you any appreciable brake force, and nobody in their right mind wants that. The first brake rebuild I did on a motorbike, I thought I had fully pumped everything into their new positions, only for the brake lever to go all the way to the handlebar. Fortunately I was only going slowly, but it was definitely an "oh 💩" moment. The problem sorted itself out pretty quickly and the brakes were pretty good, but the first few applications were a bit of a worry. The second bike brake job I did wasn't a problem (I had learned my lesson), and when I replaced the front rotors and pads on my Commodore last year, they worked flawlessly from the very start, though I still took it easy during the burnishing process. On my way to work the next morning, someone did something stupid in front of me, and I had to jump on the brakes. They did the job damned well, and I'm sure my old warped rotors wouldn't have stopped me in time. I'm using DBA standard rotors and DBA ceramic pads. They're inexpensive and they work really well, though I wouldn't get the cross-drilled rotors because I've heard bad things about cross-drilling making rotors (any brand) more likely to crack.
Great to sso the Territory still going. They are a car that was underrated.
In the early BA days, and around the BF2, Ford had used a slightly softer metal in the rotors (there was a recall early on in the OG BA's for it).
Great video as usual! That territory is neat!
These Fords are easy to replace rotors and pads!
Many good suggestions and advice in the comments!
Those front rotors looked OK Thick and flat you can get a run out tester for them I got one for my enduro motor bikes it was 30$ au from UK
I have a BA (approaching 400Kms) with occasional brake shudder its seems to do it if I park on the wet ground and the discs get rust on them then it takes a while for the pads to remove the rust!
PS The hand brake in this BA sedan has been repaired by every man and his dog! It works for about 1 month after every repair then never again, your video makes me want to have a look myself !
Nice video mate good job.
On my old bf xr8 is found that once i started to feel a pulse in the pedal or wheel, if i loosened and retorqued the wheels it would stop the pulsing.
In 35 years of being a qualified mechanic I have not once encountered a booster that required adjustment. Missing or worn out reaction discs and pads will cause the symptom you suggest as the discs are what gives you the pedal feel . If you suspect dragging brakes you crack a bleeder. This should instantly correct any dragging. If the system maintains hydraulic pressure to drag the brakes the master cylinder itself needs inspection. Considering the residual crap under the clip that holds the lid on it has had some filthy fluid on it. I agree with the assessment of calipers as with harsh use they flex and apply side loading to the pads. The main cause of disc warping on these models is poor quality parts and shoddy instillation. I’ve measured some cheap rotors and brand new they are already at minimum thickness. The fix is to clean hub faces to a shine, replace rotors and pads with quality parts and always flush the fluid.
I've had to adjust booster rods as a mechanic, usually on Japanese cars, but only with replacement.
The booster adjustment in falcons and territorys was a service bulletin from ford. It is well known. Most of the time they came from the factory with an incorrect adjustment
I agree with Phelandawly2507. I doubt that this is an issue.
I’ve had to use adjustable pushrods on a lot of modified cars, although I’ve found some Japanese cars were already equipped with adjustable rods.
I've had to adjust a ba falcon brake booster push rod, I think it's a b series ford problem
I put DBA slotted disks and pads on the front of my FGX ute. They are pretty good.
Same , dba slotteds and bendix ultimates on my bf3 wagon . A great combination
Couple of things, undo the brake fluid reservoir slightly when pushing the caliper pistons back in. Also out anti-squeel brake paste on the hub centre ring perimeter
Learned something new. Thanks Sean
Good stuff Sean! I have to remember this myself, I've got a 2015 FGX XR8 which I don't think I've noticed this problem on but I'll certainly have to keep it in mind if something develops.
Last thing you want in these bad boys is a failing booster (ask me how i know)
It's generally not warping of the rotors it's uneven wear of the face of the rotor (disc thickness variation)usually caused by excessive run out of the hub. Will be interesting to see if you have fixed it or if it comes back over time. Worn lower control arm bushes also produce shudder, You put new rotors on it fixes it for a while and then the shudder returns.
We'll see. I did the BA a few years ago and its still perfect.
Thanks Sean - will be doing my rotors all round on my BA XR6 shortly. Another thing I have picked up is that the mounting face between hub and rotor should be given a light wire brush so the two faces sit as flush as possible - can’t imagine it makes much difference, but while the old rotors are off, easy done - I’m also replacing a lot of bushes etc in all the suspension at 290,000 kms it is needed and will all help the smoothness of ride - cheers
Caliper slide pins need inspection for wear and lubrication ,, lube with silver grade anti sieze or ceramic grease ....
INSPECT caliper slide pin bores ,, these can be roughly machined and catch the slide pin. remedy = hone out the bores .
When fitting new rotors, always make sure to clean any crud off of you wheel hub, and if you have the tools, check for hub run-out, as it too can lead to brake shudder... The vehicle manufacturer might have a spec available for this, but if none is available, a rough guide of under 0.02mm for a small flange and 0.05mm for a larger flange should be okay.
a ford territory t shirt would be good lol
3:13 - What’s with this music? Lol it reminds me of the classic N64 game Goldeneye 😅
Good job mate
I have wondered in the past if it would help to do the adjustment youve just done to put a little piece of Play-Doh on the end of the rod
reassemble it then take it away again to see if there’s clearance and if so how much…….
They do that sometimes with pistons and cylinder heads
Also
There’s a company down here in Victoria called PartsWise. They make an aftermarket internally modified brake booster for the BA BF etc. It’s about 750 bucks and they claim that they have internally fixed the issue of dragging brakes through a re-design of the booster internals…..
I don’t know if that works as my BA has not had that issue but I have had shudder issue due to calipers needing a new kit etc ……
PartsWise also make upgraded slide pins for the front calipers that incorporates a rubber bush
Failing that there is also such a thing kicking around called a double diaphragm brake booster. I don’t know if that would help but it might.
Excellent, another wrenching on a Ford upload from Sean! Not that I didn't love the Mitsubishi series too BTW!
love the music at 1:57 hahaha
Is this specific for Falcons & Territory's, or all vehicles Sean?
Awesome content as always, mate. Perfectly presented!
Gee, you're brave putting an unknown brand rotor on the family hauler. My VT has DBA T2 slotted rotors all around, and the 1st thing we did to my partners VE was DBA T2 slots on the front and Bendix ultimate pads. Also, I've inherited a 2016 FGX work ute, for what it is, and the toolbox tray it's got it does alright
I'd be curious to see where they all originate from - could even be from the same supplier as other brands.
...A Ford topic again - It grabbed my attention!
Ford (Australia) and Holden warped brakes are because of poor quality rotors. New 2003 Holden VY brakes skimmed 3 times under warranty. Replace rotors with after market good quality and no more issues. Second hand 2004 VZ purchased a couple of years ago - warped rotors. Replaced with after market good quality rotors - no more problems. Historic forums showed this was a common problem on both Fords and Holden - with new cars - so a rotor issue. Never shows up us car is only city driven and that does not use serious braking. Slots on rotor are based on the cooling configuration internally of the vented brakes - so slots direction depends on brake rotor brand. Some do not care, but you CANNOT just state which way they should go - CHECK your specific rotors.
The VT commodore used to suffer from brake shudder when it came out, I remember hearing something about the quality of the disks Holden used and when you would hit some water if they were hot it would warp them, I think Holden changed the type of disks and the problem was fixed
I'm sure I've seen discs cheaper than that, but maybe that was for the set of 4 ? They look very good so probably worth the extra.
That was pads and rotors for the whole car. I've seen stock front rotors + pads going for under $200 which is the cheaper option.
4 ways to measure /adjust booster pin to master cyl clearance
1/inexpensive tool ..2/ vernier depth measure ment 3/ wind booster rod out till master rides on it then backoff the adjustment ...4/ place washers between master and booster bolts
I just upgraded to shockworks rotors and calipers problem fixed😂.Never ever needed to adjust this .
You always seperate the caliper from the slides and grease them when doing pads. That stops the jamming.
Old boys Territory has 200,000klm & those huge vented front & rear brake assemblies operate as good as ever!!
Took Ford a while but the brakes are top notch in the SZ series! 👌
Something that's always good to know is you can take the Territory front brake caliper bracket and rotors and the Territory rear brakes and put them on the BA/BF. The extra width on the front makes a big difference and the rears are then vented and a larger brake pad. You do need to cut the rear knuckle back plate to allow the caliper to fit nicely. I did the upgrade for $300 all up.
Wow, so many radically different comments on root cause. Fascinating. Then of course there’s the old towing the boat and backing the hot brakes straight into the ocean.
Interesting isn't it. I can only go based on experience - my BA and AU have been trouble free for years following similar treatment.
They look like a nice set Sean, well done , do you have the handbrake engaged or disengaged while removing the rears?
The handbrake was on when removing and refitting the wheels, but has to be disengaged at all other times 👍
Not sure if your query has been answered or not, but the handbrake should be disengaged when removing the rotors, or else you won't get them off at all
I just want to take it to a shop to fix this, permanently.
From AU to BF ... new brakes and discs seem like a regular service item in my experience of ownership ... oh and wheel bearings ... 🤔👍
You're right, every single car I own has had it done now.
@@MotoringBoxTV Everytime I buy one I immediately change out front and rear rotors (unless they have been done by previous owner), oil, filter(s) etc as part of the car purchase ... and to be honest as you've shown ... it's an easy DIY project and cheap in the grand scheme of things ... keep up the great video's 👍
I use genuine brake pads and work well for the Up grade kevler ,cerermice organic and change to stainless steel or slotted rotors or slotted
Just a heads up, that looks like the low profile jack from SuperCheapAuto that was recently recalled, make sure to check the batch number on yours to see if it's effected!
Mines a few years old, I believe the affected models were sold fairly recently!
@@MotoringBoxTV if you want a new jack, they don't ask questions and will take it back anyways and give you a new one
Does the booster adjustment apply to the ba falcon also?
Yup!
From experience, the main cause of rotor warp on these BA-onwards Falcon/Territory, is usually from flogged bushes in the front suspension arms.
PS: note that as the rotor heats up under hard braking, don’t be alarmed by the buzzing/vibration you hear/feel, as this is from the slots in the rotors. Also why I’ve stopped buying these for street cars. Just annoying, and greatly reduces pad life.
That Timesplitters music took me back! I'd forgotten about that game. Nice vid :)
What torque do you use on those wheels? Nice info regarding the booster adjustment, my Falcon has a slightly too long dead spot.
I go 120Nm
@@MotoringBoxTV Cheers, I've seen anything from 110 to 130, so 120 seems good to me. : )
Gday Sean . I have the exact same Territory, quick question, when braking does your 6 speed trans down shift to help with braking 6,5,4 mine does just checking if yours is the same . I think I read in the manual it being braking assist , love to know your thoughts cheers Bob
Yes, the logic Ford or ZF built in to the gearbox is quite remarkable. You can tell its doing everything it can to maximise fuel economy - and it never puts a foot wrong.
Thanks mate just putting my mind at ease cheers😅
Hi Sean
Are you the "aus solar connect" narrator?
Sounds just like you
Does nobody lube up the brake pistons and pad guides anymore??
🤔
I know it sounds stupid, but if they feel alright I leave them alone.
Most P plate drivers do the brake pads Up grade and fit kevler cerermice organic and leave the factory fitted disce roters big problems later
Hey just check your trolly jack isn’t part of the recall, it looks like the tool pro one
That's referred to as " pad knock off" when pad doesn't come off disc face. I over come it buy put cross drill rotors on, it's the heat to that warped them two.
man my 2010 g6e has terrible brakes had fluid replaced front rotors machined good pads but u have to really push the pedal in to get it to pull up my 20 year old rodeo brakes better
Have to my ford exploder this weekend. Same thing… 😢
Push rod adjustment is an old fix, good advise but your using the torque wrench wrong like a tyre shop, you went way past the click which upsets calibration. N😊o inspection of caliper slides or brake fluid, didn't clean hub surface, you assumed the hand brake adjustment would be the same and those spider washers that every mechanic dislike are missing. As for testing,wheels up, start car, press pedal a few times and check for binding, if all good take for run and bed in pads to rotors gently as rotors have a coating, then recheck for binding, but otherwise a good job
I keep forgetting you bought a territory lol
You'll know if the brakes are dragging, you'll warpe your new rotors really quick and you'll likely feel the dragging happening while driving
Ah yes, booster adjustment. The one thing I've clearly forgotten about when i put a new one in lol. They're not set up great even brand new ones
Heres one that I have never come across in my life .... Mazda Tribute V6, Auto, 2004 - when engine hot/up to temp brakes are fine - when cold almost zero brakes all the way to the floor/pump like hell to get any braking. Brake fluid level is fine. Any ideas/solutions welcome cos it got me Fkd...
Not come across that before, but I wonder if there's a vacuum leak? If you brake multiple times when it's hot does the brake assistance start to fade away again?
@@MotoringBoxTV Thanks for your reply, like you i have never seen this before. (49 years around cars/car yard ownership/15 years marine engineering) Crazily no, when hot you can pump your leg off and there is zero fade, when cold almost to the firewall, fluid levels are good. I have a mechanic coming around on Saturday, will keep you posted.
It's a shame you had to put background music in the vid, For those of us with headphones it does our heads in. Otherwise good vid
Warped disks is more common in Auto cars, where manuals you can down shift to slow down faster
You forget to grease the caliper slides
😃🤘
I don’t know why fords do this I think my xd was the only car I never replaced the rotors
My last car fg Ute it started at 60k so I replaced them at 80 and the new ones lasted about 30 k before they started shaking
The Colorado I have been driving now and has 220 k still on origin brakes
I did buy rotors for it when it was at 160 but still on the shelf
When you have a peanut for a boss and his words are hurry you just do short cuts to get the money off your back
Thought when he got out went too pull his pants 👖 open and pee 💦 on the wheels 🛞
In all fairness that would work too.
Incorrect. On an abs equipped vehicle the brake bias will use the rears as much as possible.
Where are you getting this from?