John King and Rod Machado Debate the FAA Airman Certification Standards (ACS)
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- Опубликовано: 28 ноя 2016
- John King and Rod Machado debate the pros and cons of the FAA’s new Airman Certification Standards (ACS). The discussion, held at Flying's Aviation Expo in Palm Springs Oct. 22, 2016, between two longtime aviation educators, each of whom has a passionate stance on the subject, is both spirited and informative.
Rod Machado is a pilot and author of aviation flight training materials. He is ATP rated and a member of the Aviation Speakers Bureau.
John King has been a pilot educator for over 40 years and is co-founder of King Schools with Martha King.
King Schools produces checkride courses that follow the FAA ACS standards; these courses can be purchased at www.kingschools.com/checkride...
King Schools courses help pilots meet their flight training requirements and overcome flight training hurdles. For a complete listing of courses go to www.kingschools.com/?...
I am watching this almost 5 years later and this was amazingly interesting. Great debate. I think Rod won this one though.
Interesting. Just saw this. Here is what I heard.
John says, "Teach your child to look both ways before crossing the street."
Rod says, "You must first teach your child to walk."
And my answer WILL ALWAYS BE teaching either one without the other is just stupid.
Excellent summary. So nice.
Rod
Great observation
@@Flight-Instructor I have to say I agree with your argument over John's!!!! I don't see how putting this stuff on the test helps anyone... Most of the actual situational training I received was actually in the cockpit flying and being in those scenarios. And 5 hours flight exams??? OMGGGGGGG I would never bother flying if that was what I knew I would have to face!!!
2 pioneers of aviation.
This was excellent for the industry
Rod is extremely sharp and knowledgeable.
What a wonderful opportunity to hear from 2 of the most influential educators in aviation. Wow
Rod's a stick and rudder man. Love it
Watching this three years later, and I still say “Awwwww 🤗🤗🤗🤗!” at that hug at the end there. 😃 ALSO...☝️
When Flight Simulator 2020 comes around, there should definitely be a dogfight mission that involves both John King and Rod Machado battling it out, and you could choose who to fly with.
I got my PPL a year ago. My DPE did mine in about the same time as Rod said the old tests took and cost less - so for me, his $ and time concerns didn’t ring true. My DPE was able to pull out and asses some really good risk management stuff from me and I was so glad my instructor had taught me how to THINK much better about risks and all those stupid mentalities we can all get into! Since then I’ve fought with myself to make the right decision and stay on the ground, watched the weather, and was so glad! Stick and rudder skills alone have killed too many pilots, the VERY primary pilots Rod was highlighting as NOT needing the thinking training. Well hello, VMC into IMC is a real killer and kills because of dumb brain stuff that no stick and rudder skills could help. But a good hard talk and training about making the right choices PLUS the skills - that’s a winning combination!
I couldn’t agree more
Thank you both Ron and John and flying magazine for this debate
I also must add, that I agree more with Rod, on the issue of Stick and Rudder. I was blessed to have a few instructors, and one being Don McCann, who flew L-4's in Europe, in WW2, and who also was instructed by a WW1 instructor, who taught me things that I have not been shown by anyone else. For instance, how he was forced to descend through overcast in Germany, and how he came down using elevator and rudder only, using just the turn and bank indicator. He taught me to flight plan the trip on paper, and Fly plan your altitude. Meaning that you always have to have in mind where the plane will take you in glide mode. I learned slow flight the correct way, confidently, and good enough to use it at ten feet to clear the pond in the middle of our 1,800 foot grass runway. I have flown with so many Private pilots who cringe if I make a steep turn, or a stall. Pilots afraid of turns and stalls? I cannot tell you how many pilots I know, who have not done a stall since primary training. This tells me, that people are NOT being taught competent STICK and RUDDER skills! If I can scare a Private Pilot by doing the exact same maneuvers that they had to demonstrate on their checkride, they should not be in the left seat. As far as risk management, we learned that already. Most people assess the risk, and accept it. Most of the time, it works out. At others, it does not. Any extra expense in obtaining the PPL, should go into competent stick and rudder skills.
My favorite quote from Rod, " I don't want anything to interfere with the development of a student at the private pilot level." This has been my argument from the inception of scenario based training. There was no scenario based evaluation criteria developed first. The ACS appears to be that effort but it is now a backwards approach (read beurocratic) to this issue. My experience is that it should follow the concept of rote-understanding-application-correlation. Primary should focused on the lower levels first then move to the other levels as both equipment and skills allows for in higher certification levels.
A great lesson in how to maintain your position based on your convictions and principles and yet refrain from name-calling or maligning your opponent's basic humanity. Mutual respect and a Brotherly hug at the end to say while I may forcefully disagree with your position I still respect you and love you like a Brother! Beautiful job men!
Kudos to both these guys for putting on a lively, albiet unresolved debate! I enjoy both of your training videos! It has formed the pilot I am today.
Magnificent ! Love both these legends and this was absolutely wonderful. We need much more of this. Subscribing to these magazines today.
Both arguments have merit. I got my ppl in 1972; do the maneuver, pass the written, and away you go...
Was left on my own for common sense, learning wx, etc. I new something was missing; and discovered the risk managment equation.
Love the humor and always have... Yes, i take notes for my improvement. Learn something new everyday...
Dan Gryder needs to debate the FAA or AOPA representatives in this format!
2 FSX legends meet.
I received my ppl in '72 and of course we had acme test guides to learn the written stuff...I received my basic certification by 1974.i liked flight instruction and was good at it!
I don't have many hrs as a CFI as these two do; in time king schools caught my eye,then realized what I don't know.im a craftsman as well and a perfectionist so every thing I do has to be just right! All my students passed on first check ride and I've received grade slips from FAA examiners, I'm inclined to follow king schools protocols, and finding things I've forgotten or don't know,I've taken all my checkrides with the feds....free,and most were high timers,retired military etc.i share king school s training...
Wild showdown, very informative! I'll just say, "I have an opinion"... on the PTS/ACS debate.
John and Rod rock! Thanks for the insight.
what a great discussion- excellent arguments !! this is how a debate of opposing ideas should be managed
First and foremost, you need to know how to fly the airplane. Up until soloing, the emphasis is on aircraft control - which needs to include slow flight because that is what a landing is all about.
Hopefully at some point before solo a lesson needs to be cancelled because of crappy weather or some other cause like just not feeling well. This will plant the seeds for aeronautical decision making.
A good level of risk assessment is critical to safe flight. Since we all screw up from time to time, knowing how to recognize the problem and how to mitigate it is key.
Great debate !!!! Rod nailed it !!!
I became a cfi 1989 and from day one introduced risk management techniques before they were labeled as such. Skills did come first and after the what if moments when correlation during the flying was cemented. Then it didn’t become a distraction but the “elevation of thinking to a higher level of practicality and experience”. I took a long detour of 18 years somewhere since I started instructing to get my experience with the airlines and recently returned to instruct and discover the ACS. Mixed feelings about it. Don’t understand why the FAA has to now tell me to instruct something that I was already doing from day one. Maybe other cfi where not. But I remember discovering as a check pilot and chief cfi that many many cfi where not even teaching the skills let alone the thinking to be safer. As much as I have learned and applied the lessons from the Kings (thank you), And while I agree risk management in some form has to be thought, don’t think the ACS is by itself the answer. It is the instructors job and responsibility to take the learning to that level and not the ACS. Demand it in the CFI PTS and THAT testing.
I side with The Machado team this time. Teaching a child to look both sides of the street doesn’t guarantee that he won’t cross and be run over.
I agree with John King on this one. Skills are important, but risk management is the name of the game. Assuming both standards produced pilots with a similar level of basic skills; pilots should be taught how to identify and manage risks. Flying isn't always cut and dry simple. I want basic level pilots that know how to fly safely within their limits, and know how to recognize their limits; not just pilots that are knowledgeable enough to kill themselves the first time the weather gets marginal on a long flight.
"No, we (ACS) didn't change the skills at all..."
What about the requirements for slow flight?
I definitely side with Rod here, but I truly respect the work both of these men have done for general aviation.
Wonderful debate,
2 of my top male aviators together! A brilliant debate, and I think John's first statement about exams becoming irrelevant just to filter out people rather than focussing on what's important is something that seems to be engrained in the human psyche; this problem isn't just related to aviation as any past student will know. However, the importance of learning and being examined on essential knowledge rather than being examined on obscure topics is even more important when you're in the air, when even if your engine quits, gravity will not thank you for knowing as John said; how many satellites a gps has to connect to for an accurate signal etc...
I love John King and his ways of teaching. So simple and easy for me to understand.
Hi Rod,
Your spot on. Your arguments are very practical and clear. Your goals are the same, safety. The biggest
difference is if your advocating teaching the advanced, risk management, higher thinking at
the appropriate time by understanding the learning capability of a new pilot. This topic is still
evolving, I hope it swings your way with further changes to the ACS.
As a CFII, we teach risk management appropriate to the skill and understanding of the student. We do not omit the the risk management at the private pilot level, we teach it on every lesson. This new ACS will prove to be beneficial and burdensome at the same time. Sometimes we don't see the problems until the new policies are put into practice. John,,,, be open minded, Rod is suggesting something that will improve the testing and training of new pilots.
John you are simply being argumentative, defensive, difficult and not listening to the practical
modifications Rod is suggesting. The entire goal for aviation is safety, you both want that.
Try listen instead of trying to WIN a debate. The goal is Aviation Safety & Efficiency. Rod has good input
for the betterment of new pilots and the ease of obtaining a pilots license while still being mindful of safety and
risk management.
Thank you Rod for your participation in the informative & informal debate. It really highlighted the
changes that have taken place. I learned a lot.
I am a 22 year retired airline pilot, current CFII, aircraft owner, 20,000 hrs, and still loving every min in the air.
Curtis
Be safe, have fun, learn something new and don't hurt anybody.
My oral exam using the ACS was only 1.75 hours long. I know numerous people who've had oral exams using the ACS. None were any where near 4 or 5 hours long.
I can only speak for my experience. I needed an IPC which used to be an ICC instrument competency check. It took about 45 minutes to an hour of flying and maybe 30 minutes of questions. Today’s IPC using the new ACS, I sat 2 1/2 hours in oral discussion and almost 2.3 hours in the airplane. I almost felt like I was paying for and trying to obtain an entirely new instrument rating! By today’s standards time is money and aircraft with instructor that is over $250 an hour dual is going to end a lot weekend private pilots wanting to fly and stay current and potential students who won’t be able to afford the physical cost of getting and upgrading a pilot certificate.
I took John and Martha's VHS ground school back in 1986. $250 bought me the course back when I made $8 an hour! Got a 98% on the written for the very same question John starts the discussion with. Relative Bearing. My Instructor told me not to worry about it because I would probably not be asked that one, and that he was positive I would pass. Still mad about that, as it was so easy to comprehend in 20 seconds in the airplane! I loved the course, and John and Martha. That being said, I am disappointed to hear John talk about treating people with respect, after he shakes his fist at Rod, and loses his professional composure.
Washington DC John King, I agree with Rod Machado here.. Learn to FLY first before manage Risks! Entry level Private Pilot exam should NOT be changed! Don't change something that is not broken! Increase Cost and decrease Accessibility! Being a pilot is now becoming a rich man's game! Everything is cost more ... Cost for renting a airplane, cost of gas, paying flight instructor, Written Exam, DPE fees.
This showed up in my feed and I was riveted. I left the US in 2004 so was not part of living through these changes. My first question is, seeing as this discussion happened in 2016, what is the proof in the pudding? How have accident rates for GA aircraft changed in the USA? Have they improved, degraded or stayed the same? There are points where I agree and disagree with both - heroes of my aviation learning path back then. I've since learned how aviation learning standards and procedures differ in other countries. To the point where it is truly only a sport for the rich or those who plan on a career. You are nickled and dimed to death with user fees, for example. But the last time I checked the standards here (e.g. Australia) do mean lower accident rates per . But how to compare, when our climate is so different from the US? Flight into known icing? You have to go out of your way to even find it! Extreme density altitude? Our highest *mountain* is barely a mile high!
Let me start by saying that as a military and airline international heavy jet pilot, John King has taught me just about everything I know about flying, and I agree with his stance that risk management is a critical skill to teach new pilots, whether it’s a higher order thinking skill or not. That being said, I wish John had approached the debate with a little less condescending and defensive attitude.
Condescension and defensiveness is all you have when you’re losing a debate. John King lost. Rod Machado won.
Last year a 20,000 hour airbus pilot killed himself after taking off in his newly restored piper with his control cables wired backwards...As someone who flies as a pipeline observer and working towards my ratings I appreciate the idea of identifying risk. As far as skills are concerned, that is up to the instructor signing you off and yourself since you are responsible for your life at the end of the day.
Gotta say the ACS was mostly the same as the PTS with some improvements. Risk management, being the biggest and most important section, was added to each maneuver instead of just being a special emphasis item. There are absolutely a lot of bad questions in the written. Weird to see Machado be against these changes.
The idea of higher order thinking is occurring even in the grade schools with math. They are giving 1st graders 5 different ways to do simple addition and in 3rd grade 5 different ways to do a simple multiplication equation. And no one (that's an exaggeration) knows how to make 5 plus 3 = 8. That's laudable to find out what works for a given kid's brain, but it is at the cost of teaching empirical facts. Translating that to flying we have to get people to fly the airplane and know how it feels when you fully stall it rather than teaching them that there is a risk at stalling, so best to avoid it. If they crash will they say, "I did my best at accessing the risk of the stall, but I lost control" vs "I felt the controls unresponsive and a drop in one wing, so I recovered based on using rote inputs."
nobody is saying not to do stalls?
When I viewed this, even though John King is a part of the ACS, I viewed King as the conservative here and Rod Machado as the liberal, even though Machado said he'll act as Trump lol 😂. Rod's awesome 👏! So too is John. They're both great 👍. I believe Rod was the winner here.
The reasoning behind that is that Rod emphasized protecting the students from high costs. He went Bernie Sanders mode here. I say this given Bernie wants to see pupils not have to deal with high costs. Rod emphasized skills more than risk management. Rod wanted more regulation when it came to skills. A great example was with the stall horn. Requiring students to get a feel for the airplane losing lift requires a regulation, whereas John King removed that and simply insinuated that he was not aware of the deregulation. John was more conservative given he wanted for students to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and focus more on skills supposedly in students' spare time I guess, given he emphasizes on risk management instead and, thus, increases costs on students. Thus, John King was the real Donald Trump here. John and the ACS installed subjective tests for risk management. Subjectivity is usually more vague than objectivity. Thus, subjectivity is congruent with deregulation, as deregulation in government sets up scenarios with lack of detail. I would rather see the PTS that Rod described be put back in place. It will make conditions safer, allow for more pilots to enter, and prevent high costs.
Rod was advocating keeping things the way they are--the very definition of conservative.
Matt Basford Not really. Keeping things they are would be pro status-quo, not necessarily conservative. Status quo can be redefined multiple times throughout time.
lets agree on one thing... current tests/teachings in GA need/can be improved. However I must Agree with Mr. Machado here...
Charles Terrell &&
Charles Terrell I’m watching this debate nearly 3 years later, and I still agree with Rod.
A pilot must have the feel of a plane he or she flies. Do do this in general aviation, you must fly at a safe altitude and learn the planes stall limits with the horn on. To get the feel of the aircraft. This is a must. You don't through out the dishes with the dirty dish water.
I loved this. I'm on the side of Rod Machado on this issue. Just watching this convinced me to not get the King School ground school training material. It is now my belief that the material from that school may be tainted with bureaucratic and misleading information. Now, on to searching for some other source of ground school training material.
I think all this risk management stuff you better have learned as part of living. If you don't have enough common sense to know that flying in VFR with marginal VMC conditions is risky and why it is so, then you should not be a pilot. If you don't instinctively know that flying in 3 dimensional space means that you need to know what the VFR chart is telling you about terrain and obstacles, then you should not be a pilot. If you don't already have enough common sense to know that drinking prior to flying is a bad idea, then you should not be a pilot. A person with the goal to become a pilot should first and foremost get to the point where they have accessed whether or not they have the mental and psychological temperament to learn to be a safe pilot. Only then can they proceed to learn the technical skills that will keep the airplane flying. My 2 cents.
If slow flight was an issue in the ACS, then how do you teach "Power-on Stalls?"
Both of theses giants are correct and both fail to collaborate on a solution for GA.
I would not say that the test is broken, but why couldn't the test be adjusted by current accidents dominating GA?
How many accident reports are riddled with negative risk management technique or practices?
So, add risk management to tests or make a mandatory course on risk management like ground school.
Save pilots, equipment, and the future of aviation.
John, I am surprised that you put this up on you tube since Rod seen to be killing you on this debate. Rod seen to understand more of the situation than you. Thanks Rod
Both great but different characters of the world of aviation. They challenge and question facts from different views of point and perspectives, keep the endeavor of better and safer way to aviate.
IMO, Rod wins this debate by clearly articulating his reasons, not being combative, and providing data to support his claims. John is on the defensive and does not offer much substance to support his position.
A basic private pilot can go across the country at night with passengers the day after getting their certificate. That pilot can go into class B airports. Or extremely complex areas like the L.A. basin. That wasn't like that when I got my Private and I think that John is on the right track.
When you look at the airlines they push for CRM, sterile cockpits, etc. These are all higher level learning skills and we know that their safety record is much better than the old days. I think we can extrapolate from there.
Check out the recent Snowbird (military) accident. Engine failure followed by stall/spin. As of today, 1 fatal, 1 severely injured after low-level punch out. Then rewatch this debate.
Interesting debate. It's not exactly relevant to the rules of my Location. But both men submitted interesting arguments and something I can think about.
There are two hang glider pilot in Europe. They both are world champions, named as Manfred Ruhmer (Austria) and Guido German (German). Ruhmer knows everything, from flying the actual hang glider safe and efficiently, and all computation of MacCready theorems. German knows how to fly only, very precisely, without any clew about tactical abilities. Both could be a winner. Ruhmer although could keep the cups in his hands for a very long time, by the way.
Other: a glider instructor says there is no different between TMA, as a restricted are for gliders, TSAs, DAs or DZs. All are similar to P. All prohibited for a glider pilots. So he taught simplicity and student pilots has no idea about different type of airspaces used by military or big jets. Students know well enough not to enter by glider. They know even better than other, theoretically well trained pilots, who knows everything about airspaces. Has this instructor achieved the goal? Are those student glider pilots in safe? Of course, yes. They definitely are in safe and they never enter TMA without SSR or permit. And they never mix up those million type of different airspaces. All restricted for them... All has to be avoided. As a student pilot, it is more, than enough.
I wonder if the debate would go the same after 2 years. Interesting, rod is debating if they had better skills they could deal with the risk. John is debating if they had better decision making, they wouldn't take the risk for the skills that they do not have. What rod is really saying, they need to get more certificates to get more skills. But John is saying is, for a private pilot with the skills that are obtained by private pilot license, they shouldn't take the risk they do.
John & Rod should work together instead against eachother....thats for the best of future aviators...
Very interesting having been out of the flying community for a long time. I would hope that the FAA is not following the "model" that the department of education has taken, but it sure sounds like it.
Some of the new questions get a little too tricky, like what is the last e in the DECIDE model....not sure how this improve safety. haha~
Sure youll have fewer accidents because youll have fewer pilots
Well, OK, gonna weigh in here with my observations, albeit 3 years late. I confess that I am not the smartest or most knowledgeable person on the planet about aviation and am a VFR Private Pilot. I enjoy analysis; listening to the words people use and trying to capture the meat of their thought processes.
I admire both of these very influential men for their knowledge, skill, expertise and intelligence in aviation matters! After all, they are the ones on the stage hammering these issues out and not me or for that matter anyone else on this format. The easiest thing to do is sit in the stands and second guess the players and criticize, so that is NOT my objective here.
I think they are both saying much the same things and are in a round-about way making each other's point.
One argues that most accidents happen because of "lack of adequate flying skills" and the other argues they happen because of poor "risk management". I say, both are correct. One is a predicate for the other. Poor risk management leads to situations where the pilot is unprepared for the conditions. If risk is properly managed, assessed and accounted for then the decisions that are made subsequent to proper risk assessment will make sure that the pilot doesn't put him/herself into situations where his/her skills are inadequate for the conditions. John is seeing the pre-cursor and Rod is looking at the end result and both are correct. Each one chooses a different tack in order to make their point. Good debate and full of good information! Thanks to both Rod and John!
So here we are 6 years later and there’s still almost one fatal GA accident a day.
I like both of the two subjects, but it appeared that Rod had the upper hand with the data.
John is all for meetings, reviews in 6 months and change this or that. Nevermind the extra cost or time for each checkride. Burrecary is what John represents.
Rod is telling us in the real world of primary/student pilot training regarding checkrides its overly expensive, highly bureaucratic with 700 risk management assessment questions now into play.
The PTS Standards were simple and straightforward. If your skill set was lacking it would easily show during the checkride. Training was focused and goal driven.
Rod Machado is correct and very good at explaning the real world. John is still waiting for the memo he doesn't have time to read. Planning their next meeting somewhere nice and see what happens.
Rod wins simply from an objective POV and he presented well. JK, I believe, in addition to getting a bit defensive. is probably more than a little biased as his vocation and livelihood depend on instruction that prepares pilots for the written test(s). What better way to increase revenue than to change the game by switching the standards and making them more comprehensive (more expensive) for any student/applicant?
bildnfly Duuuuuwoooaaaahoooooo! 😱😂 Got eeeeeeem!
As a CFI I was disgusted when the FAA moved to scenario based training, FITS, and then failed to provide guidance on scenrio based evaluation. Moving to ACS has been a disaster. Could have added SBT at the Commercial or CFI level where the higher level training is more appropriate.
Oh my goodness. What a mess. I m glad I got my rating 20 years ago. I would say both are wrong, but would tend to lean towards Rod. Risk management has always been part of basic flight lessons… from distinguished flight school. That’s the key. You can always learn to be a pilot but a good school/university will teach how to become an old pilot.
10:05 If thats the purpose then sheppard air should not be allowed to exist and someone should crack down on a few of these 141s
I love both of these guys and both have valid points BUT remember, a Camel is a Horse designed by a committee!
King Schools
🤪
John straw-manned Rod WAY more than Rod did John, yet John was claiming Rod was straw-manning John’s arguments. Rod was much more cogent in his arguments than John. John relied on anecdotal proof way too much, whereas Rod had a healthy amount of empirical evidence and even some anecdotes to boot. Rod outclassed John significantly
Which guy has the most to gain selling new training materials? Seems a bit fishy that the one who likely will make a lot of money off of the ACS is one of the biggest proponents of the ACS.
These guys need to add all their ideas to the mix. So we pilots can be better safer pilots without the government BS. The Government will paper work you to death. We need to learn to fly better.
Man they are talking cash money 💩
😂😂😂
I love it
Both Rod and John have some weak and strong points. I must agree with John on one point. Risk Management in primary learning should NOT be classified as "High-Order Thinking Skills". It should be a "Habit". No primary student has the time to sit and think about the "Risk". They react in highly risk situations, which is a HABIT. Later, in their training it can be a "high-order thinking skills", but not in primary flight training.
What many leaders in aviation and the FAA fail to grasp is that many of us pilots never want to be "professional" pilots. I watch many RUclips aviation channels, and a lot of them focus on sounding "professional" on radio calls, or being more "professional" when landing/taking off on the centerline(most runways have plenty of width to land with some variation.) I am a 500 HR private pilot and am about to take my instrument checkride. I will never be a professional pilot and I resent people implying that I am "less than" because I don't care about flying like a professional.
A high time pilot once told me, “you can’t really teach someone to fly, they either just get it or they don’t.” I think this is mostly true. They have to have test standards but the private pilot written and checkride are asking a lot of a new pilot. The instrument exam has become so difficult people are not getting the rating, which is bad for aviation safety because it can save your life.
@@nickr5658 I have been a private pilot for 14 years. I have flown all over the US VFR. I'm taking my instrument checkride in the next couple of weeks. I was nearly ready 11 months ago, then I nearly died from Covid and it's been a long haul recovery. My CFII is really good. He thinks I'll crush the ride. I'm not as confident as he is.
Good luck on ur check ride! You’ll pass
@@nickr5658 thank you
King pitiful
Only rich people will be able to fly.
I wonder what Wolfgang Langewiesche would have to say about this if he was alive today.
John-"That's not what examiners are telling us". Well John, that's because you are not listening!
John's question, How many of you know some one that was killed etc, etc,,,, Is dissappointing and has nothing to do with the the ACS argument. I have been a DPE for over 17 years and I am firm in my belief that all the ACS did was lower the safety factor. I have a new DMS manager (very young and inexperienced) that now has now introduced a 21 page POA and not only introduced it but demands it. This manager is extremely and unacceptably in cahoots with a couple of the the big money outfits that only sought to gain by the introduction of the ACS. I am extremely dissappointed with John's nonsense here. He knows he's wrong. Thank God for Rod Machado!
My question to John is, are you saying that just because these people in the working group are held in high regard, that that negates many stupid ideas they have now put into law? What an incredibly stupid thing to say!