A Philosopher Reacts to Attack on Titan: The Final Season
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- Опубликовано: 10 дек 2024
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Attack on Titan: Can Stoicism Save the World?
In part two of season four of Attack on Titan, things get very messy, and extremely violent. But is the show also teaching us something about the importance of prioritizing reason over emotions? And can the philosophy of Stoicism help us understand what’s going on? Let’s find out in this Philosopher Reacts to Attack on Titan, Season Four Part Two.
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Should We Cease To Exist? | A Philosopher Responds to Attack on Titan ► wscrk.com/3LvdnUn
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Attack On Titan: The SECRET of the Founding Titan ► wscrk.com/3F5fpbt
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What anime series do you want to see us cover next?
The great pretender Netflix
Re:Zero Starting Life in Another World
Parasyte: the Maxim
Fate/zero
I have absolutely no clue how you could do this but my favorite anime is Jojo's Bizarre Adventure.
The Survey Corps members who are opposing Eren are the only ones who stayed true to their principles, the Survey Corps fight for humanity, not for a nation or an empire.
Yup just like the beginning their goal was saving humanity, the innocents that never asked for any of this, not like the scum fucks in the inner walls that only care about themselves and would let the people of wall maria just die because fuck em
@@Rin_isobu No I can't blame them, not at all, the ones who are trying to stop Eren are the ones who had to emotions aside, one could argue that makes them less human.
Just like Armin said: "To surpass monsters, you have to be willing to abandon your humanity."
Except they didn't
@@THExRISER
Oh! That’s what Shin Kazamatsuri did in Kamen Rider Shin (1992). He abandoned humanity to fight monsters: ruclips.net/video/-r2-cTSAJlw/видео.html
*humanity within the walls
They were under the impression those in the walls were all the people there were so yeah naw man. I get what they're trying to do but they are indeed traitors who are working to invalidate all the lives laid down to protect humanity within the walls.
One life lesson I have learned from the final season is that “we are all villains to some else’s story.”
So good
That is true
Sadly it’s true
the last of us
@@marxizim no this is better than that cheap writing don’t compare this to the last of us 2
This analysis missed the mark in my opinion because it makes the common mistake most AoT analysis do: it presumes that Eren's actions are motivated solely by hatred rather than logic, despite Iseyama blatantly showing us otherwise. And in making that assumption, I feel it completely misses the point the author was trying to make. Let me explain (essay incoming)
We've definitely seen how bigotry, prejudice, xenophobia, and grief are all emotions that motivate violence in the world of AoT, there is no disputing that. But does that hold true for Eren's genocide? Maybe. After all, in the moments where his rumbling meets landfall or where he's influencing his father, he seems hateful and angry. It is also true that Eren once said he wished to eradicate all his enemies and make them suffer in the worst way, but it's clear from when Reiner brings this up in the basement conversation that Eren barely remembers this. Eren goes on to say he used to feel that way, but then he slept under the same roof as Marleyans and realized that life outside the walls is the same as inside. He reiterates this understanding later in his conversation with Historia. This is Iseyama hinting to us that Eren has moved beyond simple emotions and is operating on a more logical level, even if his emotions aren't entirely removed.
Let's look at what Eren knows:
1) After kissing Historia's hand at the end of season 3, Eren has knowledge that the Rumbling is predestined.
2) Eren has his father and Eren Kreuger's memories of Marley, and knows how deep the prejudice and violence against Eldians runs. He knows that the Marleyans and other Eldians wish for the deaths of all Eldians on Paradis Island, a sentiment confirmed to us by Gabi.
3) We know from the war meeting at the beginning of season 4 that the entirety of the world is planning a genocide on Paradis Island to seize the island's valuable natural resources and "eradicate" the threat of Eldians once and for all. We also know that the attack is imminent, within the next year.
4) When Historia brings up the fact that many of the dead will be innocent just like his mother, Eren agrees. However, he believes that the only way to end the cycle of hatred they're trapped in is with this genocide. This is an argument from logic, not emotion.
5) Eren waited to see if there was a chance at peace before departing from the group. He attended Eldian rally fully hoping that there was some peace that could be found, only to come away disappointed.
6) Eren waited to attack Marley and kill innocent people until after Willy declared war of Paradis, setting into motion the genocide of his people that we saw being planned at the beginning of Season 4
Tl;dr: Eren is able to empathize with the innocent Marleyan's after spending time with them, but believes that this is a zero-sum game where someone is going to do a genocide, and he'd rather kill than watch his friends be killed.
Furthermore, Eren's genocide is the culmination of the show's logic. The Jeagerists follow Eren for the same reason they followed Erwin - they believe that only a devil who casts aside his humanity can truly change the world. Levi, Hange, even Erwin himself expressed this belief about Erwin; he stood atop a pile of innocent bodies - ordered thousands to their deaths - for what he believed in. You can't love Erwin and hate Eren without being a hypocrite, imo. Armin articulates this same logic when talking with Bertholdt in the forest of trees, saying that someone who's unwilling to sacrifice their humanity can achieve nothing. He goes on to compromise his morals time and time again (tricking Bertholdt into thinking Annie was being tortured, bombing the Marleyan port) under this spirit of "becoming a monster to beat monsters." Bertholdt returns the favor by saying "someone has to be the one to stain their hands with blood", and when Armin refuses this responsibility he simply forces Connie to be the one to get his hands bloody, otherwise they would've both been shot to death.
Eren's genocide is the logical conclusion of all of this. He has become the monster to defeat monsters. He is bloodying his hands so no one else has to. And he's doing all of this because he sees no logical alternative.
I also think it's a terrible mischaracterization to say that the anti-genocide coalition is somehow running on logic. Hange herself admits that she has no plan to stop the counter-genocide on Paradis, nor any way to convince the rest of the world to let go their prejudice of Eldians. When she says "genocide is wrong" there's no qualifying logical argument to go along with it, it's being driven by emotions. Magath and Annie are supposedly fighting for their loved ones, but when that reason evaporates their motives don't change, so apparently it wasn't driven by that logic. It's accurate to say they've risen above prejudice, however that doesn't mean they're doing this out of logic. I think Iseyama's point is the exact opposite: he's asking us to disregard both bigotry *and* logic in favor of emotional empathy. Or maybe, they're no different from Eren and everyone that came before him - killing people because they think it's the right thing to do.
I’m trying to think of a counter point but it seems like you hit the nail on this
No one starts with logic. The psychologist Jonathan Haidt points out that intuition comes first and strategic reasoning second. It isn't that Eren is being logical and the anti-genociders aren't. Eren cares about his people on the island more than anyone else and you nailed it on Eren's strategic reasoning (becoming a monster to stop monsters and bloodying his hands so others don't have to) but his intuition is not that all human life is sacred. That is the intuition motivating the anti-genociders by definition which is why Hange says axiomatically that genocide is wrong and why it is wrong. I forget who mentioned it but after the rumbling people will still continue to kill one another because the line dividing good and evil cuts through every human heart. Besides Eren's plan just shrinks the world and creates new resentments on the island. No one here is being purely logical but being stoic was never about that. It's about being logical in accordance with moral virtue.
You are totally right. This analysis misses depth in regard to both the story and the philosophy (if you delve deep enough you find dialectics, deconstruction, and accelerationism).
I agree with a lot of your points but there’s something things that don’t quite fit like ik it may just Be the wording but do you need to think about why genocide is wrong for it to be logical? Like why is racism or sexism wrong sure we could spell it out but does the lack of an explanation make it any less logical or true? And that don’t really characterize him as a person driven by hate but a person by passion I think he doesn’t do the things he does because he loves his family and people (tho those are reasons) but mostly because he wants to because it’s the best outcome for him it’s the only way he could be free
@@Judah_P I totally agree with what you're getting at in the second half. Eren's plan is incredibly naive to the fact that he's 1) creating new resentments while eradicating the old, and 2) as long as there are more than two humans there will be conflict. I guess my issue with this video's analysis is not that Eren's logic is airtight, because I don't think it is, but rather that *Eren* thinks his logic is airtight, and that's influencing his actions just as much as any emotional resentment and hatred. And it seems like Isayama puts in a lot of effort to get the audience to understand why Eren is so logically convinced of his position.
I like how Eren called Zeke's Euthanisia plan 'Fucked up'. And then went on do Genocide. 🤣
Emotion > logic on that line lol
But like Eren in his thoughts. “Can I leave it up to chance that Marley wouldn’t just still kill everyone?” From what I saw from marley in this story, I think eren was right and hange would’ve got all of paradis killed by just waiting and trying to make peace with people who think u are devils. Like if eren doesn’t start the rumbling paradis is the ones who would be victims to “Genocide” ? I think eren did make a logical choice.
The plan wouldn't have worked either way . The island was pre destined to be destroyed eventually. The rest of the world regardless would've attacked they are all to fueled up with hatred for crap that isn't a issue anymore . If they just left the island alone none of it would've happened . Genocide is wrong yes we all know that . But so was the rest of the world for something that happened in the past and nobody remembers and the people they were abusing more then likely after the mind wipe they would've just lived normal lives in peace. Marley caused all this by not leaving the island alone . Other then that outcome which was too late after the walls first fell . Eren was fighting against not just fate but predetermined fate . In fact the second he saw the future the future was set . I believe if he never saw the future things would've gone alot different .
@@BronGoat236 this is what I thought too, that on top of the fact that the rest of the countries hate Eldians
@@BronGoat236 ofcourse
Even Hange recognized her irresponsibility
To be fair to Jean.. Reiner kept pushing the topic when he told him to stop. Understandable rage moment.
Jean is such an amazing character he's changed so much from the first season. Still in love with the same woman who don't love him in that way, but love her and his friends even Eren to stop his genocidal plan.
honestly, Reiner has a pain fetish he's not admitting. At this point dude likes to get hurt.
@@DekuStickGamer It's less about like and more about self-hatred. He's been looking for ways to die for a long time. Armin is kinda the same, hence why he was willing to jump into a titan's mouth.
Honestly just. Most of the characters in this series are borderline suicidal in some way.
@@DekuStickGamer that's the actual joke in the fandom but if you look closely he's just making his death options list longer. Man's too absorbed in his inner turmoil and just wanted to die in any way possible so it's not a fetish. The only ones that could prevent him committing suicide are falco and gabi and that also conflicts him, so going out with external forces involved are more of a viable option for him.
Yes, and he also knows he can't _really_ hurt Reiner physically, or at least he knows that he will heal completely in a matter of minutes/hours.
All of them love eren and that’s why it’s so hard to kill him and save the world
Did you actually watch the anime? I recommend you rewatch season 4 part 1 - the basement scene. Eren clearly states (and Im not sure how you could have missed this) that he first hated Marleyans, but then he slept under the same roof, ate the same food and as he spent time he started to realize that we're all the same. We're all just victims.
Anger or hatred towards a group of people was not the reason. Neither was it the desire to protect his nation.
Despair and desire to protect friends was one reason, sure.
People don't seem to realize that Eren already had won when he destroyed the entire fleet in Liberio with just a few Titans (like 5-10% of the whole Rumbling), theres one far more sinister reason. The Rumbling wasn't because he wanted to save his friends and Paradis.
Do you want to know the main reason? The worst reason of all?
The outside world disappointed him. He wanted exploration, adventure, action! Fighting big bad monsters, visiting new places with Armin and his friends, seeing the desert, the jungles, the oceans, the icy mountains all for the first time and and and.
And once he reached the Ocean what did he get?
An ENTIRE WORLD that was already FILLED with people. The realization that he's been living a lie. That everyone outside the walls wants him and his friends dead. That theres no way to negotiate peace. "That everything is just like in my fathers memories.".
But whats worse: deep down he knows that the genocide is just his selfish desire to change the world to his liking. Thats why he said
"Im just like you Reiner... no, Im even worse!",
because Reiner destroyed the walls, not because he wanted to protect his mom or help Marley. No, Reiner wanted to be a hero. Thats why he's so suicidal. Reiner realized that he killed thousands for the selfish reason of being praised by a few others. And Eren understands this BEFORE he commits the genocide. Eren realizes the hypocrisy and knows that he will still go through with the Rumbling. Eren is even worse.
Eren cant fight his childish urges. He's a child at heart (he is 19 if you forgot, the brain doesnt mature fully before the age of 25).
And if that wasnt enough, he also had to obtain his OWN future memories. He saw the future and tried to change it, but everything happened just like in the future vision.
Imagine that: Realizing that you will never be able to change any outcome. That everything is set in stone and you're just left there to observe and suffer.
What Eren saw beyond the sea was the worst possible thing for a child like him.
Fatalism.
The realization that he would be a slave to fate until he dies. That no one is truly free. That we're all just victims of fate.
Even the boy who desired freedom above all else.
I love Wisecrack, but honestly I find it offensive when you nitpick the story parts that fit your arguments, while ignoring many others. I know Attack on Titan isnt easy to understand, it takes most people at least a reread or rewatch, but please do your research a bit more. You're misrepresenting Isayamas message.
Eren is a victim of his own desires. We all are. Thats Kennys final message and the chapter of his death was released along Attack on Titans last chapter, to hit home the message once more.
Kenny could have taken the spinal fluid, but chose to die a human, despite always desiring titan powers.
Erwin could have jumped over the wall, visited the basement and fulfilled his dream of finding out if his father was right. But he chose to let go of his desire and instead Erwin lead the suicide charge.
Both died with smiles on their faces. Both were happy.
Let go of your desires and only then will you be free.
YES
Finally someone who said it, a lot of comments being made about Eren actually being logical or just wanting to protect his country is unnerving. Although I'd point out that Eren still feels hatred towards the world and even tried to dig back those emotions when in 130 we get a call back of "I'll exterminate the animals of this world". He knows they aren't, he's aware of his hypocrisy but embracing some sort of hatred function as a attempt at fueling and justification too, there are layered motives but yeah, his dream is either together with saving his friends or a bit higher
And tbf the guy on the video didn't read the manga so he can't know what 131 explores yet
Of all the hot takes in these comments, this one rings true to me. I also feel that the circular time logic used by the author is a bit of a cop out to give a grander justification for Eren's actions as if the author himself do not fully support his own character. I haven't read the manga though and other people have said that some really selfish motivations for Erin are laid out further down the road.
This is by far the best comment I've come across. AOT is truly special.
This was one of my 2 theories
I just want Eren to be good but I know he was never established as a good guy
but rather a guy who hate a system and crave freedom so hard
It should be noted that Eren doing the rumbling wasn't entirely about revenge. In the end, he knew of only one way to save his friends and end the Titan curse was through one way. Was that worth it? That's up to the reader or viewer. But to Eren, who made it very clear what he wanted to do from the start, he was the only way to win.
Attack on Titan is definitely about not being able to solve all the world's problems. Genocide was always going to be the endgame, regardless of who won in the end.
In my view (an anime-only view), Eren is primarily driven by love for his in-group. So much so, that's he's made them into a false idol and is sacrificing literally everyone and everything for their absolute security. Absolute security being only attainable through tyranny, he overreacts to the threat they face and goes beyond what Armin viewed as the logical course of action and launches a worldwide genocide.
An interesting question that the show raises though is how big does Eren view his actual in-group to be? Is it all Eldians, just the Paradis Eldians, his small group of friends, or just Mikasa and Armin? All but the latter have suffered loss of life because of his actions.
Eren wants to save his friends but at the same time he isn’t letting them choose or have a say in the matter. It’s like having a ton of college applications accepted and your parents decide for you what college you will go to.
@@dr.deadpool5959
you realize that with the power of the founder eren could take away all the titan shifters ability to turn into titans. The very fact that they are actual able to fight against eren is showing that he is not taking away their freedom or making decisions for them.
@@brandragoon9274 doing genocide for their sake is him making a decision for them that’s why they are fighting against him because they believe the choice of genocide is wrong
They rumbling has nothing to do with revenge. It killed him to the rumbling spoilers
Literally
Just a little aside: Eren didn't decide to enact the Rumbling after visiting Marley and attending the summit. He decided to do it before he went there. When you see him speaking to Floch and Historia about his plan, that happens before he goes to Marley (which also debunks the theory that he was the father of Historia's child - the timing doesn't line up).
That's why he constantly compares himself to Reiner now. They both decided the people across the sea were their enemy before ever meeting them... and afterwards, when they got to know them, it was far too late anyway.
Yes eren made plans to do the rumbling before visiting Marley, but he only followed through with it after the world declared a full scale invasion on his island.
actually, Eren doesnt hate marleyans, he understands that they are innocent and arent responsible for anything, yet he loves his friends more than them, and he was given a choice between saving his friends or sparing the people who want to kill his friends
I love wisecrack videos but these media analysis videos are very frustrating when it's clear that person who wrote them isnt familiar with the source material. The core of eren's character is the fact that he lost the illusion of free will and how he struggles with it. The core theme of aot is determinism and how one's environment shapes their behavior, there's tons to talk about on this topic. Focusing on stoicism misses the mark completely
Yes exactly !!
I mean both those things can be true there can be many different layers to a story and the story can be about freedom and virtue and he was not talking about eren character arc which if you here familiar white how the manga ends up you would know the focus of the story is not eren he is just the vector for it, this isn’t the best analysis but it’s far from missing mark
Precisely, Eren's ability to see glimpses of the future is apart of his actions, determinism would be the first thing I thought wisecrack would talk about. Would Jared have done better, I wonder.
If Eren became disillusioned with free will then the scene with his dad should have been more of a shock for him. If he focused on freedom of choice then he wouldn't push for that outcome. Eren didn't care about freedom of will, didn't care about the future, like the characters in the show implied, once Eren set his mind in something he will not stop until he reaches that goal, no matter what it takes.
@@artypyrec4186 what are you talking about? eren doesnt push for any outcome.
Eren was never a big mastermind that made the hard choice to kill his enemies to free his people. Eren lost the illusion of free will when he kissed historia’s hand during the ceremony. He saw a future he couldnt escape from, every decision he would make would still ultimately lead to the same outcome. We see him grapple with this multiple times, the most crucial one being in chapter 131 when he rationalizes it by convincing himself that there is no other alternative since it came to that in the future (see self fulfilling prophecy), he then tries to test if he can change the timeline by trying not to save ramzi like he saw himself do in his memories but he fails to do it, which leads to him having a complete mental breakdown in which he expresses how he can’t escape his innate drive for revenge. something that comes back in 139 where he says that he doesnt know where this impulse comes from over panels of his birth and grisha saying « you are free eren » which seems to imply that free will does not exist (see determinism).
All Eren can do is move forward until he reaches the final memory he saw which would set him free. The meaning of Freedom for Eren was free will.
It might sound insane but Attack on Titan actually helped me through a lot of terrible moments in my life. I’ve been living with a very serious depression and other mental health issues and Attack on Titan up until its last moment taught me how to live on even when it seems pointless. I do believe it can teach stoic beliefs and I believe it is such an important piece of media that should be adapted into future history. Also to teach about war, suffering and the “enemy” that was ourselves all along. I’m forever grateful to Isayama-sensei for this beautiful work of legendary art.
It'll sound insane, but I understand you a lot, this is also part of my story. Happiness should be everyone's way instead of a goal. This world is cruel, but it's also beautiful! I honestly wish you the best!
Dude same. Aot helped me through a lot so I know how you feel.
Eren's future self has already chosen his life, he fights for freedom, but himself has none.
He wields power as any tyrant, he hasn't lost his freedom, he lost his marbles.
@@estebanrodriguez5409 sometimes who you perceive as powerful are really the biggest slaves. Philosophically speaking everyone is a slave to something. Just as king fritz was a king inside the wall and perceived to be all powerful.
His fate is sealed. He is trapped in this timeloop. The irony of pursuing freedom HURTS SO DAMN MUCH. HE CAN NEVER OBTAIN IT.
@@TheCh0sen0neisawesom In the real world? No, powerful people are excempt from many things that regular people are not. Yes, no matter how powerful you are you can't "change the underlying rules of the universe"... but we are talking about ethics.
@@TheCh0sen0neisawesom The psychology around the grandeur people in power feel is philosophically interesting for sure, but I believe they were making the point that just because someone sees things from a more powerful position doesn't mean their actions should be judged with a different ethics. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, overriding the autonomy of people you hold power over becomes "necessary", etc.
I just wish Henge had a better alternative to Erin's genocide than, "we'll figure it out later." Because as it stands, the alternative is Issac and The King Behind the Walls. Sacrificing your own people for the sake of world peace.
The thing is she was willing to risk her compatriots, friends and herself for the rest of the world. She should if just said that instead of beating around the bush.
@@dorianmarch5811 More than her subordinates. She is apparently willing to expose her entire nation to the world's wrath by stopping Erin.
Hange point is about being against what's wrong, and If it's mean that bad things will happen to you, go against them as well. Hange and the others are trying to stop the rumbling because after It, they would try to protect the Island from the world. Doing what's is right, will NEVER be the wrong choice, no matter the consequences.
@@CelVini One might also say it's wrong to tell your neighbors and countrymen that they have to die for YOUR principles.
@@Raziel312 it's not my principles, being against Genocide is the last a Human should be, wether is against other people or yourself.
Anime is becoming VERY mainstream and I can't blame it lol. So much depth and philosophy behind lot of them stories. From "To you, in 2000 years" in 2009 to "From you, 2000 years later" in 2021, AOT definitely deserves the attention it's getting
r/titanfolk will sure be triggered by this video
They are triggered by everything even aot itself
Aot ending is shit no one likes it
Eren didn't even know why he did ther rumbling 🤣 and I thought he was gonna save paradise and not gamble its future so that's a retcon 🤣🤣🤣
Judging by the comments, they surely have been. Bunch of clowns.
@@aotgoat3267cry about it😂
“The Expanse” is a philosophical masterpiece!
Tbh, I don't think it's a bad assessment nor a bad video, but I feel much more could have been explored.
The first video where it was explored under the light of the Carl Smchmitt fascist ideology was much more sharp, and I say this because, fascism cannot be boiled down to just emotions, ideology cannot be boiled down to the irrational. Hell, it's been ages since pure rationality was thoroughly questioned and "updated", also, the Jaegerists justify it not on the basis of emotions but on the values of self preservation, the rational (normal) "desire for survival". The problem is the justification of genocide, because those ideas drive their actions. So, the rebuttal should be on those grounds. Personally, I'd choose to talk about "Ends and Means", I'd go to Aldous Huxley here (1937), but I'm sure as long you don't pick a fascist ideologue it'd enough. Besides, you could always talk about fascism and ideology and it'd be better.
"desire for survival"
That would have been a great place to expand the video with the grounding of Eren's moral decisions vs the grounding of moral decisions from a Stoic point of view. In Stoicism the only good is Virtue and the desire for survival is always subservient to that goal. In Stoicism, death is not a bad in and of itself, it may be preferable but it is not a good to seek above Virtue. If you do something Vicious to preserve your life then you have swapped the order of valuable things in Stoicism.
@@joaovmlsilva3509 He/She is talking about the Yeagerists' perspective & that's true.
So jaegerist are basically championing a rational ideal at the expense of doing something irrational like a world wide genocide
@@joaovmlsilva3509 I disagree
problem is, I don't think this guy watched aot like at all lmao, same with his previous vid, it's really hard to analyze any series, let alone one as complex as aot, without knowing the full story. It's a scuffed analysis video for sure for that reason.
You should've talked about the part where Eren tells his plan to Historia, there it is shown that he knows what he is doing is an extreme response which will result in the death of countless innocents but he does it as it is the only way he sees to save those he cares about, he knows there's good people outside the island, like the refugees, and even in Marley, like Falco but he is willing to sacrifice them all to protect his friends, even if those same friends end up hating him for it, at least that way there will be no need for more titan shifters and none of them will have to inherit his titan and die 13 years later
Eren isn't really motivated by hate (his words to historia and Mikasa really show that he would prefer another solution but he is frustrated that after all that time, he could never find it), but it is as he said, if he sees that someone is willing to take his freedom away, he will not hesitate to take theirs first, only this time this "someome" is the rest of the world
MANGA SPOILERS IF YOU ARE ONLY WATCHING THE SHOW:
eren only latched on to other peoples' ideas if those ideas matched his own. when historia declared all humanity should be dead, she later says that was a spur of the moment (and its believable too.) Also Eren was shown to be very dishonest, even to his own friends. But Eren didn't change what Historia said. He still quotes her as being "the worst girl" in the timeskip, even though Historia had grown quite far from that moment. In fact, based on his conversation with Ramzi, he didn't care about the others at all beyond the concept of "home." Eren never grew his desire from the infantile sense of freedom to something more mature, and with the attack titans power he refused to. He told Ramzi that he was disappointed humanity existed (not mentioning their hatred/conflict at all) and "wished" for it to be gone. He totally could have changed this, though; Ymir was able to mature her desire from her infantile version of love he got from King Fritz I thanks to Mikasa. Both Eren and Ymir had the power, and only one changed for the better. Because Mikasa showed Ymir that she could overcome the one sided love they both have (Ymir towards Fritz I and Mikasa towards Eren,) she used the attack titan's power to change the past (that panel with Fritz I dead was not drawn accidently.) Ymir changed and therefore lifted the Curse of Ymir and the curse of the Titans. Well, now it's Eren's turn to change (he had the same powers as Ymir by this point and at the same level) but chose to not change. Because Eren did not change (he could have stopped himself from killing his own mother,) even his "backup" plan failed. He didn't break the cycle; all he did was renew it for the next wanderer in the woods.
I really like that the first person Jean apologized to wasn't Reinar but Gabi. It kind of goes back to what Sasha's dad said about Adults having to carry the burden that children shouldn't have to.
Jean not forgiving Reinar is him saying that its Reinars and his own responsiblity as the adults to hold onto their hatred and not pass it on to Gabi and Falco because they are just kids. They didn't do anything wrong, they were just forced to believe to that their race was a curse
Lol that’s really stupid because Gabi was a literal war criminal. If she’s “just a kid” then so is Reiner. Iyasama trying to be fake deep again but it falls flat.
Never clicked faster, someone needs to explain to me this final season
All you need to understand is that you must keep moving forward
Titans can sometimes access previous titan memories. Eren masters this ability and observes history as a voyeur. Eren's consciousness when doing this isn't effected by time so he becomes psuedo-omnipotant and decides he's the only one who can decide what should happen to the world. He is god and the rumbling is the deluge in genisis
"Shit's fucked"
It's simple really. Eren is going to destroy his people's oppressors.
Even though Eren is someone who is often fueled by emotion, he never wavered from his principles of freedom. He wanted his friends to be free from living behind the walls, wants historia not to have to be eaten by her kids, wants Armin to not have to die to the curse of ymir, even though he does have hate for the world for their treatment, his decision in the end is logical, commiting genocide and becoming the ultimate monster is what will give my friends the best life, I'm gonna die in a few years anyway, I can at least give my life for them.
Depending on the ending you saw, the original or redone one. Eren absolutely thought he was going to survive but gave his friends the option to stop him he didn't think they would. The show makes a point, even Levi pointed out, someone like Eren when they make a goal they will become a monster to achieve it. Eren knows the future didn't even hesitate for his dad to kill those kids. Saw his mother die, still made the same choice. The end he thought he would survive, kill everyone besides paradisians, and live happily with Mikasa.
And this is why logic isn't the end all be all. What Eren is doing can be viewed as noble, he's choosing to do awful things so the people he loves can be free. It's an incredible act of self-sacrifice, of choosing to do a greater good even though it means your own downfall. Logically, what he's doing makes sense. But what he's doing is fundamentally wrong on a deeply emotional level. This last season has given me serious FMA vibes, where you look at the value of one human soul and no matter what that soul has done or what they're a part of, their value as a human being does not change. But what can equal the value of a human soul? You can't logic or reason the value of humanity or freedom. I think that the actual problem here is that Eren is being too logical, he's removing himself from his humanity and saying "I have to be a monster for their sake." It's a decision based on emotions, yes, but it's very much Eren denying himself the thing he ACTUALLY wants in favor of the greater good. If Eren could've let himself be emotional and cling to his friends and get scared and upset that his days with them are numbered and trying to spend as much time with them as possible instead of logically solving a problem (No enemies=freedom), this wouldn't be happening.
@@faithjolley6034 Yeah but morals go outta the window in the shitty, grim world of AOT where everyone does things for their own benefit only.
@@faithjolley6034 I actually think Eren’s decision IS NOT the logical decision. Which only further backs up your sentence about logic not being the end all be all lol. When looking at the situation logically, the majority’s of human life being saved versus an island of humans being saved sounds pretty cut and dry. Not to mention the larger population outside the walls are more technologically advanced. It kinda goes without saying that saving the vast majority of a species (who has a much better chance of living and thriving and preserving) just makes logical sense. And even though I don’t think Erens choice is moral, I think it’s way easier to accept his choice as moral than logical - it is not moral to let your friends get harmed if you have the ability to help them
Do u think he even thought floch would try to kill his friends just so that the genocide does happen, he's a emotionally affected person, Should I say a guy with a real bad PTSD and trauma, still doesn't make the genocide right
Please do video on the Attack on Titan ending! Theres a lot to unpack there philisophically! Especially in regards to free will and the cycle of war.
I don't think there are heroes in aot.
It's very clear that the alliance are just choosing which genocide is right and which genocide is wrong
You can say they will try to negotiate peace after they stop the rumbling but they clearly said that they had no plan for afterwards and what makes you believe that the people that couldn't negotiate the jeagerists out of their hatred to the outside world and had to resort to violence (they just happen to be the stronger and more luckier side) could talk the world out of their hatred to paradis? Especially after they saw again their horrible actions (they don't even need to play the "my great grandpa 100 years ago suffered from eldian rule" they can just say "the rumbling you caused damaged my life)
Eren,floch and the jeagerists are not right but the alliance are not right either
It's just people fighting for what they perceive is right (jean for example isn't simply fighting to save lives but because he himself can't live with the idea that his happiness came about because of genocide so if he didn't have a conscience then he wouldn't even try to go against the rumbling)
They arent deciding which genocide is right did you not see hange in the scene declaring "GENOCIDE IS WRONG", what they are doing is giving both sides more time to think things through and work towards peace, and peace is never easy when people choose conflict and freedom over listening but if humans cant learn to work together they are doomed to wiping each other off the face of the earth
But do we have heroes in our world?
@@sdbzfan1 I feel like the line "if we hesitate the rumbling won't stop" is their way of trying to justify their actions.
They said it to themselves so they wouldn't feel bad about killing the jeagerists because "we are doing the right thing right?"
While in my opinion murder is bad, if you are trying to stop murder you don't become a murderer yourself.
They are basically doing the same thing as eren, when Connie shot unarmed Samuel what was the reason? Because he might go and grab another weapon right? So he had to kill him
But eren is doing the same thing... killing parents and their children so they wouldn't grow up wuth hatred and take arms and come back for revenge.
They antagonized eren while basically doing the same thing
At least eren doesn't justify his actions he literally calls himself a devil
@@Rin_isobu I think we do.
In my country we had a terrorist attack that was going to cause alot of damage unless someone can hold a door and block them for enough time till more support arrive and one young soldier did so and... fought them alone while blocking their bullets with his body with the door on his back
And then the reinforcement came and exterminated the terrorists with only one casualty...
For me he is a hero, he probably did do mistakes in his life because in the end he was just a human but overall he is what I think of when I hear the word hero
And I love that idea, the mere thought of the existence of someone as selfless gives me comfort and that's what a hero does right? Give us comfortable lives
@@mohamedelhediissa289 are you just choosing to forget that they didnt want to kill anyone to begin with, remember the warriors were ok with killing the yeagerist because they are soldiers but armin, mikasa connie and jean didnt want to and then armin came up with the idea to trick them into letting the boat go, the issue was floch caught on to the plan and was going to shoot the azumabitos, it was then that armin said the plan failed and mikasa went to save the azumabitos and then they had to fight their former comrades
The whole point is armin and the group are constantly trying to take the path with less blood to no bloodshed but life isnt simple and never works out perfectly, so dont go trying to twist their words like "see they are murderers look at them killing people" after hoping to god no one has to die
"To Your Eternity" would be a good series to do a philosophical analysis of.
not really
Can't help but feel like this video whiffed on discussing the fact that Erin's motivations are actually very logical given that the only way to stop the world from annihilating Paradis is to annihilate the world first.
Season 4 Erin definitely believes the rumbling is the only way to stop the extinction of his people. The nations of the world already hate Eldians, put them in concentration camps, use them as child soldiers. They would have destroyed Paradis decades ago if it wasn't for the possibility of the rumbling. Recently they have become more and more emboldened to attack anyway, as seen by Marley sending Reiner and his gang of child soldiers to massacre Paradis and murder Erin's mom.
Obviously, genocide bad. But come on, this whole show isn't nearly as cut and dry as you try to make it out to be.
eren and floch are the only ones thinking logically.
why are the alliance against genocide becuase they wouldn't be able to live with themselves after words.
not becuase the have another plan or actual reasoning.
this video should be flipped on its head eren and the yeagerists are the ones thinking logically and being stoic while the alliance are the emotional thinkers.
Logical but not strictly speaking moral; he's driven by a subjective passion - caring for one relatively restricted group of people while being willing to sacrifice the rest of humanity and a lot of the world's beauty (let's not forget the Rumbling won't just kill people, it will also completely devastate the land, the environment, and every cultural heritage... it's basically like a nuclear holocaust, it will destroy both life and the planet). Eren's priorities are highly selfish and subjective, and that's not a very stoic thing to follow.
@@HaganeNoGijutsushi morality is entirely subjective my friend and this is about survival, remember that the whole world is hell bent in the extinction of paradis even before the rumbling start.
@@HaganeNoGijutsushi Pretty rare to find people who will lie down and die instead of fighting back. The world backed Paradis into a corner, and eventually a leader rose up that gave them a way out of the corner.
Genocide is wrong, but it is pretty silly to expect a people group who the world wants to exterminate to just lie down and take it.
I also would not call it morally superior to kill all your friends and allies and bathe in their blood like Mikasa did. The alliance is a pipe dream, stroking their own egos while having no plan other than to stop the only real plan anyone has come up with that would save their home.
Floch is a monster imo, his reasoning isn't terrible but he is ruthless and that kind of leadership will only breed more ruthlessness. With someone like Floch in charge, they could succeed in the rumbling and the world would still be just as violent.
@@remycoldez7593 this was about the stoics specifically. Morality is subjective but the Stoics were defined by having a certain (subjective but shared) view of what constituted morality. By this metric, Eren is NOT a Stoic any more than he is a Christian or a socialist. He just doesn't share those values or act on them. It's not simply about "being logical". A Stoic would indeed say that you SHOULD lie down and die if it's the only just option that has been left to you by unjust men around you, if only to make a point and not yield on your principles. And it wasn't just empty words: a lot of Stoic philosophers famously committed suicide this way rather than back down on their principles when faced with an impossible choice. As said in the video, they believed that if you didn't fear death, then there was nothing you could be threatened with, and that was true freedom. Even a tyrant can't have power on you if you just kill yourself rather than give him the satisfaction of doing his bidding.
Jean really has grown as a character in the show. From the selfish only looking for himself and his comfort fool in early season 1 to the reluctant "damm this is not because of you Eren" joining of the scouts to "I'll forever be a scout." He can pursue comfort all he wants, but he knows where he belong.
7:50 I feel like he is more like Chairman Mao, claiming the mainlanders are the good guys and the island devils are the true villains
The thing about Eren's decision is not just that it's motivated by anger and/or fear, but also that as far as he can see, no one, and I mean NO ONE has given him a believable plan B for his extreme plan A. Marley was attacking Paradis ruthlessly even as they were nothing but an out of time village of trapped farmers. Would anyone in the world trust them enough not to attack them when they actually have such a destructive power as the rumbling at their command?
The answer is no, very much NO in the world of the series.
So, the only way he can prevent his people from being bombarded out of existence is a pre-emptive strike. Shock and awe to it's maximum degree.
Do a philosophy episode on Babylon, please. That's another anime that wears its philosophical themes on its sleeve but it's soooo underrated.
Eren doesn’t care that much about his “people”. Only the ones he knows personally.
@@zm4904Spoilers:
If this were true he wouldn't have weighed up the utilitarian option in his head in chapter 131 where he argues with himself whether he could accept the deaths of those on Paradis Vs those of the outside world. This was also an internal monologue meaning he has no reason to lie.
Eren's seeks
1. freedom (also a minor need to wipe the outside world in order for it to overtime be a barren place of free land.)
2. To protect the island ,
as if it were only for his friends he could've just worked on building a life for them outside the island well everyone on Paradis gets wiped out.
He also made decisions multiple times that placed the lives of his friends in danger multiple times when moving towards the rumbling. He argues with Armin specifically also about the possibilities the island has in the flash back sections and to hit the nail on the coffin, even when saying he wants his friends to live long happy lives in chapter 131 showing a panel of his friends, it is followed up by a panel of him crying over Sasha's death. This all means Eren never just did it for the sake of his friends.
3. He wants also for his friends to live long lives. Still a true goal, however it is in conflict with his other goals.
He didnt let anyone to take a shot at plan B
other wise its not that hard to comebup with a plan B
like destroy alliance forces and show them the power of founding
and then after the world is ready to listen tell them Willy Tybur is right and now Eren is no longer Eldias leader
and in time people would start treating Eldia just like we treat Germans
@@zm4904 That's not true cos if that was the case then he would've gone with Armin's partial rumbling plan and secured his generations' future. The fact that he didn't shows that he wanted freedom for all his people as well as the future generations. Armin's plan would've only delayed the war and the burden of fighting would've been passed down to the next generation thereby limiting their freedom and childhood. In the long run it would've achieved nothing. So, Eren definitely did care for his people.
@@uvindukulathunga3860 Half of what you said is just headcanon, Isayama made it so that there were only 3 plans Armin's, Zeke's and Eren's.
Arcane is a great show to do a Philsopher's React. Or maybe a Deep or Dumb.
Eren's decision to use the rumbling was not just motivated by a desire to save the Eldians, but also, it was the only way to free the Marlyans from their own fear. He understood that the entire history of the titans had left a scar in humanity that could not be erased even with the destruction of all the Eldians. Without the rumbling, the future of humanity would have been for ever marked by fear and weakness. In a way, it was the same decision the biblical God made when he used the flood.
I've been waiting for this video for 2000 years 😂😭😂😭
It was made for you, 2000 years ago
Stoicism is the least interesting philosophical thing about this season.
Marleyian troops are trying to wipe out Paradis for the greater good (kill or be killed). Eren is trying to wipe out the entire world except for Paradis (recognizing that the rest of the world will always want to wipe out Eldians cuz of their monster-transforming-ability).
And even Armin, Mikasa, Annie, and Reiner are fighting for the greater good, and slaughtering their comrades. This, right after they were reasoning to themselves that Eren's large-scale sacrifice is not worthwhile, they make a sacrifice in kind (killing their friends).
The bigger theme in the season is means-to-an-end mindset, and kill or be killed (world before and after nuclear deterrence).
Many characters keep going forward despite all of the suffering they incur, to get to a new area, an area that might be a heaven or a hell.
@@joaovmlsilva3509 thanks I'm just a pleb, making mostly pleb commentary still
The most interesting thing is what the story build up over its runtime: creating a scenario that shows objective morality is a flawed concept.
Neither the corps, nor eren are wrong. Just two groups with different ideals, that both do horrible things to achieve what they want.
How do 90% of viewers miss the point Armin and friends murdered people who wanted nothing else than to not be killed?
Thank you so much for yet another fantastic video 🙏🏼 Can you cover the third and final part of the last season? I’m very curious to get your take on free will and freedom and what those mean if the future and the past occur in the present.
I would love a Vinland Saga video covering the monk/priest and Canute's philosophy on life in the second half of the season
you mean the dude who doesn't understand a thing about Christianity? lol. or why evil exists? But actually it would be pretty great to see them take a look at that show
@@BalikTrollbane Nobody ever said he was a good priest/monk but he certainly has an interesting lens on life
@@irecordwithaphone1856 Have they done a video on Vikings? That would be pretty great to see Ragnar's perspective vs Athelstan's worldview.
This guy knows his philosophy the definitions and history behind it but applies it inaccurately to the characters in the show. Seems more like he's only looking at the characters at face value and applying a very un nuanced reasoning to their actions. For instance Eren Jaeger looks like he's acting on emotion but the details of the story very clearly paint the idea that despite how he feels he's acting in the most cold and logical way he can
Being a slave to freedom is hard to get over.
Eren is gonna be like plagueis a tragedy that has sad irony
Unless your a hard determinist and you have the opposite problem
That is an oxymoron
Do the philosophy of Reiner that just wants to die and no one let him
How is that philosophy?
@@szilveszterforgo8776 it's not philosophy but there is an ideological thought process behinds reiners character. You can point a philosophical finger at near anything and it wouldn't be wrong since all it means is a thought process.
@@szilveszterforgo8776 why Fate wants nothing to do with Reiner lol
@@TheCh0sen0neisawesom No, you're just simply wrong. There are only a handful of philosophers in history who thought that philosophy is nothing more than a thought process.
One of the reasons why Eren goes with the rumbling is because he can actualyy see all the suffering Ymir went through her material life (and the pain that implies + Grisha + Kruger + etc) through all their memories, which it's an interesting concept (people are their memories?). He really has an overview of the conflict, but in the end he can't stop being the hot headed "Eren Jaeger". This is a pretty messed up story, but Isayama portraits it beautifully in anime shonen fashion.
Ahhh... Jean knew Reiner can heal. Plus what they did to Marco, Jean hurt from the most and is just now learning what we have known for a few years now. I love more the next moment where he apologises to Gabby and really understands her position in killing Sasha. But then turns to Reiner and clearly states: You don't get an apology.
Genocide is wrong but logically if Eren wanted to keep eldia safe Genocide was his only option it wasn't just driven by emotions as they tried exploring alternatives to their problems with disappointment. Thats why eren broke down crying because he knew what he was going to have to do to save his loved ones. The world nations wanted all eldians dead. How are you supposed to convince them otherwise? You cant especially when your enemies are multitudes more advanced technologically by 100 years. Titans were starting to become obsolete with more powerful weapons. Not saying i agree with eren, but i understand him. If i were in his shoes I'd probably commit Genocide too as a last result likely i wouldn't be able to live with myself after but I'd still do to to keep everyone i care about safe.
It’s not his only option whatre you talking about
@@number1ninja5 whats the other option?
@@sermike16 he could not commit genocide for one
@@number1ninja5 thats just suicide, give actual options
@@pinkuminto Well genocide is not an actual option either
It’s a morally gray area when the whole world declared war on you and either you are wiped out now or in the future which happened I think so it’s a fight to truly protect you’re people forever but I think people would be on eren side if he said he was only gonna wipe out Marley it’s a tale of the underdog no longer wanting to be beat down and going all out
Problem is it was a global coalition - not just Marley - that was planning to genocide Paradis.
@@tristanneal9552 Wouldn't annihilating Marley, the strongest member, scare off the coalition?
Like, I bet if the entire USA was ravaged by Colossal Titans, the rest of NATO would probably be too scared to invade Paradis themselves.
@@tristanneal9552 The subsequent issue with that, is that Eren and Zeke are responsible for plotting behind the scenes to ensure a global alliance came together in the first place.
@@theodore23sanchez But for how long? With the way the world is evolving with technology and the like able to destroy even colossal Titans what is the assurance they won't try again on top of that the Titan Shifter has to be able to use the Founding power in perpetuity always holding the Rumbling as a Trump Card while the rest of the world is gonna try to find a way to counter an arms race if you would.
Marley used to be that underdog
I would disagree with Michael on Jean's outburst. Here is my reasoning:
Jean was following stoicism (as per Wisecrack content) and did not deviate from his principles even when he was beating up Reiner. You see, any interaction with Reiner at this point of the story is not going to follow any philosophical rules/axioms because of how fractured and broken Reiner is from inside and so any actions by any character in response to Reiner, in my reasoning, will be exception to the character's (Jean's) principles rather than a rule. Jean was stoic. In fact, Jean even let go of Marco's death and the involvement of Marleyan warriors but Reiner in his self loathing and guilt brought about an exceptional situation where Jean , and I would argue, keeping in accordance with his principles acted with violence that healed more than hurt. How? Reiner is a Titan, I don't think he would've enacted the same violence on Gabi (he even stopped after hitting Gabi). Moreover, his action did not make a single person worse off and nor did he act unjustly.
Again I say, my disagreement is highly contextual because of Reiner alone. Wisecrack, possibly forgot Reiner's character (the entirety of Reiner as a person) and simply assumed him to be like other somewhat normal characters (when clearly he is not) and thus assuming Reiner to be worse off from this whole event/interaction. Do keep in mind, Reiner is not at all in okay mental space. Yes, he is resilient but he is not OKAY.
Isn't Reiner always looking for someone to punish him for his actions too it's why he never stops any beating he every takes.
Next: A Titan Reacts To A Philosopher Reacts To Attack On Titan: The Final Season
From Erik Killmonger to Eren Yeager, millions of marginalized groups have felt the passionate urge to give into hatred, in response to their oppressors, and these characters exemplify what that emotion's like. "If they want my people to be Devils then I'll give them a Devil" is what's being shown here, with the righteous path being that the oppressed people having the burden of being the better person.
I feel that Attack on Titan S4 is doing what good storytelling should, evoking empathy for an audience that would likely feel distant from the characters' circumstances.
Oh Ffs bro please relax
The burden of being the better person always falls on the ones with power. When the elidians had power, they oppressed the marleyans, than the ones with power became the marleyans, and they oppressed the elidians, and now that the elidians have power again, they want to exterminate everyone else
It's easy to be good when you don't have any power to do harm
Finally after catching up I can watch all this videos I've been putting away!
I'd argue that, in the manga at least, Eren isn't so much driven by emotion as he is by a deeply twisted and cold, logical calculous; everyone in the outside world wants us dead, they out number us to an impossible degree, the only way to prevent our own destruction is to balance the scales out so that they no longer have the capacity to do so, which can only be achieved by nearly obliterating them. Where as those opposing him aren't acting on purely logical principles - the notion that one would have any capability of stopping Eren giving his power is, on the face of it, illogical to the point of absurdity - but are acting on emotion, whether that emotion be a desire to defend their homeland & people for the Marlayan contingent or simply sheer horror at the lengths Eren is going to for his fellow members of the Survey corps, or a desperate need to save him from himself for Mikasa.
Eren literally has the power to time travel, he can talk to people in the past to change the future and willingly chooses to guarantee a present that results in ultimate calamity. The only reason you guys try so hard to justify eren is because we've seen everything from his perspective
@@Crest28 The "time travel" is a closed loop. Meaning he can't change it anymore. He fucked up and he knows it. He realised it too late at the end..
@@Crest28 the time travel logic is kind of fucked up they didn’t fully explain it. like if everything was planned by eren there would be a beginning of all that like some time line without eren someone who was so disgusts by that timeline they find eren.Also every horror thing eren did was because without the ultimate hatred they wouldn’t move forward they would just give up
@@Crest28 For the record, I did not attempt to justify a single action Eren took. His actions are reprehensible and unjustifiable, and he is an utter monster for whom I feel no sympathy. What I said, was that his actions are based on a "twisted" logic. Just because a course of action appears logical from the perspective of the person taking said action does not make the action justified. It's a problem in our society that we assume "logical = right". Thanos' actions are based on logic, they're still wrong, stupid, and horrendous.
@@CambrianAnomalocaris That's fair but at the same time, its true of every single human being. Whatever the ideals of stoicism may be, it's impossible for us to truly separate ourselves from our perspective, & our emotional state is part of that, and influences what we each consider & determine to be "logical".
I disagree. Eren’s actions are based on cold hard logic, not emotion. Were he still his overemotional younger self (that he has long since outgrown) he’d never be able to go through with this horrendous act. Like Reiner, he’s acknowledged that the people on the other side of the ocean are not devils, just ordinary people. This act is not born out of hate or vengefulness, but rather the survival of his own people, and he had to abandon his humanity and his emotions in order to do it.
Thank you
Eren did nothing wrong, but he definitely did something wrong...
He's currently doing something very wrong.
He did all the wrong
He did ONE thing wrong, only after Marley did a million things wrong..
He did wrong to be chosen by Ymir? But who gave the power to Ymir? Source of all living? But is it the real the ultimate beginning point? Then people used this power to do cruel things...
@@THExRISER self defense is wrong?
Interesting video for sure, but in time of war I don't think the stoism philosophy on how to live a good life actually matter. If Eren doesn't commit to the rumbling everyone he love will die, the world has already decided that Eldian people are the enemy. The only way I think to resolve this conflict is to have a peace negotiation, and the only way to have a leverage as a small island of Paradis is the Rumbling. so I think every thing is going perfectly according to plan until we get to see part3. Maybe that's just me, what do you guys think?
i only watch the Anime so don't comment manga spoilers pls, thank you!
Another thing that adds on to this, Eren doesn’t have that much longer to live because he’s been a titan for a while now. Eren could never truly wait if he wanted to guarantee his friends would be safe and live peaceful lives
Hum it’s strange to read this. I guess when you see things like this you can justify anything. And maybe that what is very awkward about the last part of this show. There is other solutions but the show doesn’t show them because it would undermine its fascists tendencies.
Oh man. This is a very complex story and makes you wonder about our identity and existence.
Hope to see a philosophical discussion about the anime Shaman King and its message on redemption and forgiveness
There was no other way.
Amazing video!! I would have enjoyed an analysis about the scene when connie shot his former companion to save the plane.. It was a hard decision to do if we think about the morality of that choice.
That nearly broke me. To save the world you have to kill your comrade and friend.
Especially when you consider Connie has been betrayed repeatedly and never wanted to be a soldier in any of this. In that moment he became the thing he hated
Yes, he finally understand what it's like to be in Reiner's shoes.
@@RizkyGusna Then immediately pays Reiner and Annie back for them saving him previously.
Yeah this scene in a way can be seen as a thought experiment showing the complexity of stoicism. Our Scouts sure gotta Do whats right - save the world. But in order to do so they have to kill. So to achieve stoicism youll have to not be stoic..?
I love this story, it's so complex. Goes to show you that definite answers are very rare if not impossible.
Anyway in said scene I think the only one who acted with virtue is Armin. He did everything he could to save the world, but when he was at a point where killing His Friend was the only way to move forward to his objective, he simply stared in his eyes hoping he would not shoot him.
Pretty sure he still would never have fought back if Conny didnt shoot. And thats why I think Armin was in the right.
Conny's action, considering realistically the situation, were still understandable though!
Jean is where he is today because he continues to do what's right. Whether that means putting others before himself or having to kill Eren to stop worldwide genocide or even forgetting his dream of being an MP because he's a talented Scout who can actually help to save humanity. He's always had a great moral compass and his character development is one of my favorites. Great video! 🤘
I love all your episodes but I don't get how stoicism is related here. One could argue that Eren himself is very rational and the principles that our guys follow does not necessarily follow from logic or at least the line of reasoning is not presented in the show. I feel like there are other concepts that you guys could touch upon like "Freedom" that Eren is striving for. After all this is how Eren convinced the girl in the interdimensional hub thingy to give him all the power. I would have loved to hear your opinion on that. I feel there are many parallels in the story with world war 2. I think Modernism vs Postmodernism is a better fit but I understand that this may be less applicable to the show because the show focuses on individuals tensions more. I don't know I'm a STEM guy pls help.
All logical arguments come with certain preconceptions that one takes as unsupported axioms to build from. Given different axioms will give you different logical conclusions. For example as a STEM guy myself, when designing something we have the engineering problem of what we want to prioritize, speed, quality, or cost. We choose one of these to as the base axiom and then design around that. choosing a different starting point will logically give us different end points.
For Stoicism, the most important thing is Virtue, that is the starting principle. Eren may be acting logically from the axiom of saving Paradise Island but these two values are in direct conflict when Eren chooses genocide. All Stoics use logic but not all people who use logic are Stoics.
Currently of the opinion you could analyze AoT through the lens of modernism and postmodernism but it would rather dry and use the show to contextualize real world parallels. Such an analysis would likely focus on the history or lore behind the show and while some of the history is given in the show, it's not a lot. The show takes place, seemingly, in a world where most societies are still within modernity. Modernism can be said to be the idea that people come to hold a grand narrative/ideology, have a sense of belonging, belief in historical progress, thinking everything having a place within the grand narrative, comes to standardization and universalization, disavowing things that "hold back" progress, and so on. Postmodernity comes about, depending on who you ask, at the end of ww2 or after the dissolution of the USSR and is used to describe the cultural conditions from thereon.
Postmodernism is, more or less, a bunch of theory concerned with structuralism, consumer society, and critical theory that questions a lot of the assumptions modernism makes. So, something like, idk, the identity formation brought on by the various regiments or the military as an institution, the social relations and their historical roots, power structures, and so on would be the angle of a postmodernist analysis but there's not really enough info, imo, to make a great essay but I could be wrong
The ending was so depressing because it shows that peace can never be achieved since Paradis and the rest of the world is still at war decades later. And it also hints that Ymir and Eren might not have been the first 2 founding titans and could be just 2 insignificant people in an infinite cycle of titans
Zeke wouldve ended it all
The fact of the matter is, the rumbling is the only way to ensure Eren's people their safety. They pleaded MANY times that they do not want war and they fell on deaf ears every single time. They were pushed into a corner and now Marley wants to cry victim because the war they started and kept instigating, didn't go their way. Hell, even Magath said they were completely in the wrong. People say there's no good or bad side in this series ... they're wrong! And Magath straight up said it. Marley messed up big time and they're reaping what they sowed. This was the ONLY way for the Eldians to thrive in a world where literally everyone, even their own brainwashed kind, hated. I don't sympathize with those Eren kills. He doesn't owe the world anything when all they tried to do was wipe them out. Eren did nothing wrong.
Exactly. Paradis owes them nothing
I agree
eldian hate isn't propaganda; what they're convicted of doing actually happened. they're essentially north korea with all the world's nukes
Yea true 100% of the people from outside the walls want the eldians from paradise dead. No matter if higher class, lower class, poor, rich, adult or kid. Jokes aside...but leaders, governments and people in power are those who decide to commit a genocide...not the vast majority of the people. I mean yeah AoT is a fictional world and yeah I know they humans from outside the walls in general hating the eldians especialy from inside the walls but, It would make sense to assume that the (vast) majority of people are having their own problems in their (everyday life). Like poor people trying to survive and they wouldnt care about committing genocide on a race they dont really know or maybe dont even care about. Also children, yeah they get indoctrinated and finally start hating paradise aswell, but in general children are completely innocent in that conflict. So basically by whiping out the humanity from outside the walls you would let 99% or if you want say you would let 90% of the people pay for the mistake and decisions caused by 1-10% of the people. The majority of the people are most likely innocent. So basically not "the world" tried to wipe out paradise, instead the worlds governments / people in power tried to wipe out paradise. So I think it way more complicated and very difficult to justify Erens actions from an ethical pov.
@@momscastledoesn't justify hating the entire race
The only logic Marley had was believing their own lie of all Eldians being in on the plan to use the rumbling to wipe out humanity which only served as self-fulfilling prophecy
Marley did nothing wrong, and Eren as well did nothing wrong/SPOILER ALERT: the story was presented to us from Eren and Grisha's prespective that's why we seem to think Marley is pure evil,Marley is your everyday human empire like Britain and USA they're hypocritical,who pretends to fight against the titan threat only for them to use the same titans to destroy and invade other lands,yes sure they're def. not good but we only seen them fight against other armies like in the mid-east episode, but even Marley will never use their power against billions and billions of people,in the other hand you have Eldia a literal race of creatures that can turn into titans,they're things that look human but they're not actually,it only takes a spinal fluid to turn them into giant naked monsters,eren knew that better then his friends ,in the shooting scene from S4,Armin was talking about clearing 'misunderstanding' between Paradis and the world,to which Eren reply :"the world sees us as monsters who can turn into titans to me there's no misunderstanding at all" through his father's memories,Eren knew the marleyan prespective and realised what he has to do,Armin is moral and good but he's also a dreamer and an ignorant of how bad their situation ,Marley's situation is not any better too, in S3 we often thought that the opression of humanity by titans to be a propaganda myth created by Marley but that because we were seeing things from GRISHA's prespective but in Yumir's flashback we see how the Eldian king orders her to' destroy the inferior people of marley' Ymir didn't use her powers to 'develop' the continent as a whole like Grisha once said to his nationalist friends but rather used it to develop her OWN tribe (eldians) only,Its true that Marley manipulated the narrative and exploited it for politics as told by Tybur Willy in the decleration of war but the story wasn't completly invented it had realistic roots,Eren is aware of all this but as an Eldian nationalist fueld by desire to protect his people and revenge for his mom ,he has no solution but to end humanity to end their cursed history,there's also the fact that he's unfree character whose actions were both influenced by memories from the past and future along with his condition and circumstances in general,between Marley and Eren I can't seem to hate any of them.
I agree totally
Probably Spoiler idk, but I think it was already mentioned in the Anime....
Eren doesnt want revenge for his mother, since he himself was the one, who caused the death of his mother in the first place, by using the power of the founding Titan to manipulate the Titan form of Dina Fritz to go straight towards Erens mother and eat her, instead of eating the young Bertholdt who just came out of his collossal Titan after destroying the gate.
Also I think both sides actions are ethical wrong, but in terms of action and reaction both sides are kind of forced to push towards the genocide of their enemy.
Isayama said in an interview that he does not have an idea or message he wants to convey by Aot. He said, "If there is, and if the reader feels hurt by reading the work, I am happy to write Aot.
He also said in an interview for the 2016 film of Berserk that he was emotionally invested in Griffith's massacre regarding the Eclipse ritual.
"Let's goooo."
In other words, the controversial massacre of Eren is simply a tribute to Griffith. It doesn't seem to have any particular meaning. This can be seen from what Isayama said.
"I didn't expect so much discussion about the massacre."
He never had anything more than the idea of drawing manga in his spare time. It was simply his talent for entertainment. In a sense, pure entertainment.
It is mere entertainment, the kind of entertainment that doesn't need the kind of criticism that doesn't think, or think, that no matter how many monsters you hunt in Monster Hunter, the ecosystem will be affected, that Pokemon is pet abuse, and so on.
I know people love subtitles for anime but the dubbed version of this show is really good actually
Watched it all dub gonna be weird when I watch the final parts in sub
I was happy to hear the nod towards remaining present. It’s such an effortless, blissful and beautiful way to be
The greatest thing that AOT fans hate is when characters show emotion and this is backed up by chapter 139 over one single panel
Spoiler ahead
After rereading aot for like 8 times I actually like the "simp" Eren moment. Even after all that happened, in the end Eren is still a child, he is still 19 years old boy. In Japan, a person turn into adulthood when they reach age 20. It actually humanize Eren. The moment where Armin thanking Eren for being mass murderer for their sake is also actually pretty nice moment, it is a call back from when Armin first killed a person and Levi said, thanks for being murderer to save Jean. So for Armin what he said is not stupid, but a way to comfort Eren. Yea but the Mikasa and Ymir part is still something that i can't fully understood.
Nobody disliked him showing emotion in 131. They disliked him crying about a girl he never dated finding another man after he verbally abused her messed her life up and just killed a billion people
@@hankkingofmischief4372 yea dude, that called showing emotion. Eren literally have no control over his action. Do thay justified all bad thing he did? Hell no. Yes Eren did verbally abused Mikasa, but he have no other way to made her go away. Dude literally try to made her choose anoyher path of life since before they join scout, he knows Mikasa would never left him any other way. But do that justified he crying over a girl he likes will eventually loving someone else aside him? Yes, and yes if you have fall in love as a teenager you will say stupid thing like eren said. Eren always have been emotionaly unstable character and none of that moment is out of character from him.
@@kirainfo yes it is he has never gotten emotional over something so trivial and pathetic. He never even got development to view mikasa taht way. There’s a difference between showing emotion and crying over some stupid shit
@@kirainfo
Manga Spoilers!:
I think the whole Eren Armin interation(s) is pretty good, even though it needed to be more fleshed out, I hope the Anime will do so.
I think the point of the Mikasa/Ymir topic is that, Ymir is very similar to Mikasa, at least in terms of "love". Ymir obeyed to King Fritz, even after her own death and even after decades, because she just loved him too much/ she wasnt able disobey him. Mikasa on the other hand loves Eren and wants to protect him no matter what, basically her only life purpose for her seems to be there for Eren (similar to Ymir only living for King Fritz, even though the circumstances are way different). She also doesnt want to kill Eren, even after he initiated the rumbling and started to go for mass genocide, yeah she agreed to help to stop him, but not killing him. This is also shown in the scene where Annie confronts Mikasa and asks her is she will be able to kill Eren if she has to, where Mikasa didnt really answered. So basically both Ymir and Mikasa are slaves to their love for King Fritz / Eren and that is why Ymir, beside obeying Fritz all the time, safed Fritz´s life by tanking the spear, which was thrown to Fritz. But Mikasa was able to kill Eren despite the fact that she truly loved him. And Mikasa beeing able to kill the one she loved, gave Ymir the "motivation" to also kind of free herself from the chains of love, so Ymir was able to finally let go and finding her inner peace. In fact Mikasa did, what Ymir wasnt able to do in her lifetime.
At least that is my interpretation.
Sasha's Father is the stoic god
I feel like people give too much credit to the alliance, think about all the people that Annie killed in stohess, and riener killed in shiganshina, pieck helped zeke massacre the scouts, and magath? He brainwashed these children into hatred. I think that eren is right. Its not about what's right or wrong anymore, because there is no right. Its about survival. In order to survive, eren needs to defend himself and the island by destroying the world trying to genocide them first. Its a shit situation, but I fundamentally disagree with the idea that the right move is to roll over and just die for your oppressors, which is exactly what you'd be doing with zekes euthanasia plan, or even any plan that isn't erens at this point. For the mainland, you are monsters who need to be killed. They won't stop because of their brainwashing and its not a viable solution to "convince them". They outnumber you. They have more tech than you, they can and will wipe you out. Its a matter of not letting them do it by destroying them first. As reiner said, I don't know whats right anymore, all that can be done is take the only path left to me, and face the consequences of my actions to the bitter end. (Paraphrasing here)
Agreed. This guys ab privilege asshole who knows nothing about suffering.
Exactly. I like this video, but it seems that the fact that Eren would be sacrificing all of his loved ones for the sake of strangers, granted, a lot more people, is being completely ignored. Does it make you a virtuous person to allow your loved ones to die so that strangers will be saved? I honestly don’t know, but this video seems to be pushing the idea that stopping Eren’s defense is the objectively virtuous choice unless I am misunderstanding something. If you want to quantify the morality of the choices by how many lives will be lost then yes, Eren’s plan is less virtuous, but some people do believe that a person willing to not put up a defense for their loved ones at the expense of other people is a bad person. This all assumes that by making either choice, the entire other side will be genocided with 100% certainty however. Again, I could be misunderstanding something but it just seems like this entire aspect is ignored in some people’s worldview.
I would kind of disagree, the point is that war exists in a different zone from right pr wrong. Morality matters but wars over it breaks pepole. Evrybody is kind of a devil by the end
You are such an edgelord. Not everything is morally grey
@@sprawlz6466 no, its not, but that is kind of the point of the show... that sometimes there are no right choices and everyone is wrong. My point is I think people act like some people are less wrong than they are, the alliance specifically and are so willing to just decry eren and his actions when they are basically the same actions of the people who are against him.
This was the episode I was waiting for.
what are your thoughts about the idea that eren, as the attack titan, was able to see into the future, and that if he did not launch the rumbling, paradis would have been destroyed?
guess the response would be learning how to die (similar to immanuel kant)
Again, that doesn't justify the rumbling.
@@ddm1912 is there moral value or justification in saving your people?
@DDM it's a kill or be killed world. Marley did genocide first and they would do it again if eren didn't do anything. It's easier for us as viewers to point a finger at someone's actions when we just watch and not do anything about it.
I think you missed the point of the speech, the guy does not hate eldians in the isle, what he is doing is throwing them under the bus, he is indicating that the islanders are the true enemies, and if they are erradicated and the eldians in Marley help in doing so, then... maybe, they can be forgiven and have their situation improved or even be accepted. The guy is advocating for the eldian people, but only for those not in the isle.
i dont think eren did the rumbling to take revenge specifically, he just wanted to protect his people in the walls bcoz he already saw the future of them getting ambushed by the entire world's militaries. If eren did what armin said (just warn the world with rumbling instead of genocide) the world will caught up with the titans with their modern weapons and still will ambush them. Eren have no choice but to do it. At that point, it's either the walls will be wiped out or the world.
Soukyuu no Fafner definitely deserves a deep philosophical dive. It targets things like guilt vs duty, existence vs non-existence, and a bit of stoicism vs passion
"Can stoicism save the day?"
Yes. Yes, it does.
No it can't
Yes. :)
@@ReverieNightengale ?
It's difficult to put the anime into a philosophical perspective, because the story is so complex it simply just shows how humans can truly be.
So what's the right thing for eren to do? What's the right thing for the people of paradis to do? Everyone is quick to condemn but yet providing no solutions
it seems they want them to die becuase that's what happens when eren is stopped.
therfore anyone who is against eren is necessarily for the genocide of eldians and thus includes the alliance.
a large portion of the Fandom has yet to realize this.
That scene with armin jumping into the titans mouth almost made me cry oh my god
If Eren didn't do the rumbling and chose to wait like the scouts wanted, Paradis would have been trampled.
That doesn't justify the rumbling.
He couldve just defended paradis with the millions of colossal titans
@@wifparanoid he couldn’t. Maybe for 5, or even 10 years but the age of Titan-based warfare was ending. Cannons were already developed that can rip through a Titan like nothing.
In AoT, they are at WW1 level tech. In 30 years, Titans would be absolutely useless against nukes and explosives.
Like they said, it was just a delay, not a solution.
To be fair, the enemy was about to commit genocide by wiping out the entire population on the island. They are okay with genocide when they are the ones doing it. Eren just got the upper hand in the situation. His enemies screwed up, so I'd say it's a fair game if they get wiped out by their own karma. When a group of mobs is about to kill your entire population, it's only human nature to fight back and make sure they never get a chance for a comeback. Love and mercy will not solve all problems.
Lol exactly… it’s like everyone just ignores this and we’re supposed to be on the side of people calling Eldians subhuman roaches. Yeah, I think not.
@@VashTheDamnFiendyou’ll most likely die in the rumbling lmao
Hmm. While the rumbling is definitely not virtuous or moral, I do think it's logical from the Eldians' perspective. Self preservation is logical, even if it's amoral sometimes. Thank you for the great commentary.
Hello guys, amazing work as always. Could you consider doing a philosophy of wolf's rain please?
The Marleyan State deserved it #changemymind
Based + W
I just want to survive an be happy .
Wow I’m early. Good video to be early too. Long live the Rumbling!
@Kendall Lowe
Rumbling suck!
Ideon destroying the universe is awesome.
@@whathell6t mannn agree to disagree but agree about it Mikasa?
@@kendalllowe7527
Nope!
This, ruclips.net/video/3sTlMOVX3dw/видео.html , is way more romantic than Eren X Mikasa.
It reminds me of that line from one of the Brooklyn 99 episodes "Cool Motive. It's Still Murder." (please let me know which episode it was in, Comment Section)
I do still wonder if Eren is acting completely emotionally or if there’s a twist in the making
Oh you didn’t read the manga
Eren's character in the 2nd half of the story follows what I often see in anime and manga - introduce a villian, have him do bad things, and then show his perspective and have him exhibit emotions that were hinted at or weren't expressed before to turn them into a sort of a tragic figure.
Tbh I am fine with this kind of structure but I don't like seeing them on protagonists.
I would say yes since he shows a lot of insecurity at the table scene when Armin told Eren that he was a slave, he’s also fuelled by rage and passion to wipe out the world judging from the last episode of part 2.
@@yaksh2953 Thankfully, AoT doesn't do that. Unfortunately, because AoT doesn't do that, a lot of people hate the ending.
@@annaairahala9462 Well idk about the other people but for me the ending would have been better if the last consequences of his actions were shown in more detail than what Isayama actually went with.
I guess doing that would have been too much since that would mean urging the readers to look at things more pragmatically which is hard for most people or some simply don't.
The benefit is that it will keep people discussing it for a long time. Tbh he might/should have expected to get mauled by a portion of his readers rather than hoping that they would go along with his idea.
Its easy to say you can control your anger when people arent after your life.
Of course Annie didn't want to fight Mikasa anymore. She would've kicked the sh*t out of her
Gotta be the best thumb. Erin (of all people) standing over his father gently whispering "peace be still" like anime Jesus...
I wanted you to talk about the conflict between Jaegerists and The Alliance. Like, who is actually right and who is actually wrong. I know there's nothing wrong or right in AOT but still the means to achieve goals of both groups are questionable from a philosophical point of view.
Dude, don't get me wrong but this whole video was about how Eren and the Yeagerists are wrong and the Alliance are right.
@@joaovmlsilva3509 No, how did you even get that from what I said?
@@joaovmlsilva3509 No, I'm not saying I want a complete separation between right and wrong. I understand that both Jaegerists and alliance are equally right and wrong but I just wanted a solution on the problematic situation of Attack on Titan's world.
@@kingkiller5325 I don't think so and you know what, you should stop being that Floch fanboy, talking trash about alliance is not gonna make you great. Both are equally right and wrong, that's what I believe.
@@LymLevolveon Dude, where did you get that I'm a Floch fanboy. Or that I'm trashing the Alliance.
I'm firmly on the side of the Alliance. I also believe that no matter what justification Eren might have in his mind, he is objectively wrong for committing a global genocide. And the Alliance is right to stop him.
What I said to you was the answer to your question that the video did not explore who was right or wrong. Which the video kind of did. It showed the Alliance to be in the right.
I think you may have misunderstood my comment. But still for future reference don't be so aggressive towards a comment you're not clear about. It does not promote healthy discussion.
Hi wisecrack, have you even seen the show from season 1?
AOT is the most thought provoking (in a good way) show I have ever watched. it has made me really consider things I never thought about before. At the very least it's much better at philosophical themes than 98% of other show's
The Philosophie of stoicism gets even more present and clear when you look at the final conclusion of the last episode. I dont want to spoil but on hand there is the ultimate sacrifice of all personal interests for the greater good whilst on the other hand you have emotionally driven extremism that leads to such terrible acts that the character breaks under the guilt when rational thinking sat in.
Also the philosophy of determinism w.r.t. time is very prevelant throughout the series and is pretty highlighted in the last episode.
Edit: i hope you do another video about the last episode
To be fair to Eren and the Yeagerists the whole world was going to genocide them first. This is not about hate or revenge, but survival.
But it's not survival anymore when he kills the innocents, the refugees, and the volunteers' nations that willingly help Paradis, it's just pure slaughter.
@@arika1549 thats collateral damage. Such as when nuclear warfare has been used in major cities to stop a war. It isn't right or wrong it just is.
@@ACORNyMOFO He purposively destroys those nations that I've mentioned, that's not collateral damage. Collateral damage happened to the Paradisians themselves, whose families and their houses were crushed by the wall's debris.
Eren was right. Freedom is the only thing that’s really yours.
“Don’t bully me after beating me up & don’t beat people up, it’s not good” made me roll my eyes SO HARD given the context of this moment in the show.
It's especially funny given the context of the show, in which Jean is fully aware that Reiner has the titanshifter ability to regenerate, and Reiner has regrown whole limbs and half of his own head at this point. He can take being a punching bag for a hot minute.
Lol yeah. Try "don't hold my friend down and remove his only chance of escape and then watch as he's eaten by a monster. It's not good."
AaaAaaah i just found your videos! So interesting. I haven’t check all your videos, but have you seen psyho pass? Can you do that anime?
Are you a philosopher ?
He has a PHD in philosophy, he showed his diploma on the first episode of Philosopher reacts
@@Rin_isobu idk I'm not a philosopher
@@LuisSierra42 well I guess he’s a philosopher then, right?
Where in the show does it reveal some hatred Eren has? He is functioning on an extreme case self defense. Basically that you are justified to defend yourself even if it means you end up standing on a mountain of bodies to achieve it. Eren's motivation is about not being subject to genocide, both from the world and from Zeke. Also, there is a meta theme in regards to critical theory about oppressed and oppressors, you see this in the fact Eldia were the oppressor, Marley defeated them and became the oppressor, Paradis were being oppressed by the king who was overthrown and a new ruler installed which then lead to the Jeagerist overthrowing that new regime and oppressing Paradis as well. The final scene in the manga in which war happened again and the cycle repeated itself. It sums up the conversation Eren and Praxis had in season one regarding conflict among humans and the later conversation between Praxis and Erwin in which Erwin succinctly states conflict between humans won't end until our numbers fall to one or less.
Dude if Eren only killed the people of Marley, the other nations will join together in arms against Eldia and kill them. Hell, they were going to do that even if Eren didn't start the rumbling. It was kill or be killed all along...
I feel like the thematic scope of attack on titan (or at least its focus) went beyond showing the value of stoicism but definitely can be seen through that lens. Going further into the manga series I think you'll find Eren isn't necessarily just a guy driven by passionate and blind rage. He appraises a certain role to portray himself as such to a (soso) thoroughly calculated and reason-driven end. Toward the end of the manga [Spoilers] through his quasi-godly powers as the founding titan he has a conversation in paused time with Armin in which he talks about his intention to 1. Paint the Pardisians as heroes so they may be seen more favorably and 2. Eliminate global forces strong enough to eradicate them. He elaborates how he had seen this future through the founding titan's abilities when making contact with Historia and has been working toward the pre-destined vision when establishing the Jaegerists, proceeding with the genocide, and going through several "outbursts" (particularly with Mikasa). In any case, he believes that strong rhetoric won't suffice against a world bent on their destruction especially when it stands to reason that it would be better to lose fewer people (the paradisians) than more (everyone else). It would also be appropriate to add his "godly" powers seem quite limited in scope of knowledge he can attain from the future, and in weighing the outcomes he could control (the destruction of paradise against the destruction of the world) he opted to save people he knew personally. Though the selfish ends of his plans are fueled by emotion, that is much the same with any personal decision driven by logic. Now I understand choosing such would justify genocide (utterly insane), but I think Hajime Isayama wanted to question the inherent value of this somewhat populist thinking.
I suppose the truly most stoic decision would have been to allow for their destruction or do anything to subvert all the suffering in the series. The fact that Eren's backwards memory inheritance from his advancing(attack) titan is hinted to have started the events of the entire series. I don't remember explicitly when but I do recall that he was likely responsible for orchestrating the years of Eldian Oppression, the Titan Wars, the elusiveness of the advancing titan, the death of his aunt, his father's Eldian nationalism and subsequent migration to Paradise, the devouring of his mother, the initial attack on Maria, etc etc all so that he could 1. meet Mikasa and Armin and be their friends and 2. ensure they could live happily afterward. They question if the events of the story actually started at the very end as his advancing titans seems to have always been programmed with this goal in mind. It would stand to reason that Hajime Isayama intended for this to be true as advancing or "moving forward" is a large part of Eren's character and the memories he passes backwards hence "keep moving forward even when you die even after you die *to his father both from Krueger Eren and Jaeger Eren*". Anyway that is to say, to him, it was the most logical move to seek self-preservation and his ideal lived experience as opposed to the potential of that which lied in the rest of the world. You could say it was an emotional decision, but it is also a very human one that is not completely unjustified but undeniably unethical. I'm not a big fan of TINA arguments either or having to weigh the lives of people against each other (quality against quantity), but I don't think Eren's actions should be reduced to an emotional flaw or an example of the failure to recognize stoicism's principles.
heh idrk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like armin said " one has to abandon ones humanity, in order to overcome monsters".
The alliance is emotionally driven as is eren and one can justify both parties actions but i rather take erens side in all this since he wasnt the aggressor but is merely fighting for his and the bands life, the existence of paradis and and their right to live......this are noble things in my book.
Stoicism has alot of overlap with cognitive behavioral therapy. Which is an evidence based therapy that seeks to manage emotion to access the wise mind. The stoics were essentially practicing self therapy before therapy was a thing.
Not only is there overlap the Fathers of CBT, Doctors Aaron Beck and Albert Ellis, based it on Stoicism.
"The Stoic Epictetus is often acknowledged as the main philosophical father of CBT and especially of rational-emotive therapy (RET). Beck and Ellis frequently noted that they have drawn upon the writings of the ancient philosophers in developing their psychotherapeutic techniques." - pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3073604/#:~:text=The%20Stoic%20Epictetus%20is%20often,in%20developing%20their%20psychotherapeutic%20techniques.