Are the TV Shows Prior to Disney+ MCU Canon?
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- Опубликовано: 11 июн 2024
- This video takes a look at all of the Marvel TV shows that came out prior to Disney+ and looks at whether they are part of the main 616 MCU canon.
00:00 - Intro
00:33 - Life in the Multiverse
01:36 - Listing of the shows
03:10 - Helstrom
04:26 - MODOK & Hit Monkey
05:08 - Gifted & Legion
05:48 - Runaways & Cloak and Dagger
07:12 - Inhumans
08:57 - Agent Carter
10:40 - Agents of Shield
16:22 - Netflix shows
#mcu #disneyplus #canon #marveltv 
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Pretty much all of the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. "inconsistencies" have all been debunked
-Darkhold: confirmed to be the same book by the showrunner of WandaVision despite it looking differently; MoM also stated that multiple Darkholds can exist in the same universe since the "original" Darkhold was inscriptions on Mount Wundagore. Both Darkholds also acted rather similarily.
-Time travel: multiple forms of time travel can certainly coexist, and they used the Quantum Realm in the s7 finale.
-SWORD: it is not implied to be SWORD. They wanted to use it, but they weren't allowed to. Even if it is supposed to be SWORD, it can still work with the SWORD set up in WandaVision.
-No mention of the Snap: it wouldn't make sense to mention it. Daisy & Jemma were searching for Fitz in space while Mack was rebuilding SHIELD. I can hardly imagine the topic would come up in any of these circumstances. Or maybe it's implied. Perhaps the reason Mack was recruiting more was because of the lives lost in the Snap.
-Marvel timeline on Disney+: why would it be there? AoS is multiple seasons over the span of the timeline; they'd have to split it up in order to make it fit. That's not the best thing to do.
-Mockingbird: it is completely likely that "Mockingbird" is a title that is passed down. First Laura Barton had it, then when she retired, she passed it to Bobbi. They also didn't mention the name Mockingbird, just Agent 19 and maybe those are different people rather than one thing like in the comics. Bobbi can be Mockingbird while Laura is Agent 19.
Good theories! I have always assumed AoS was canon and I think it's safe to say "always canon unless Marvel says it isn't canon". So for now it is canon. I do suspect that Ghost Rider's eventual appearance in the MCU could alter things and I also think the Inhumans storyline from AoS has been abandoned and that could also present an issue. I just wish the TV and movies storylines could have been better connected. But alas, Loeb and Feige didn't get along. But only time will tell for certain where things end up. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@BillyTheKidLawrence Definitely agree that the shows were filmed and produced as canon and that Feige confirmed as much, implying at one point that the Defenders could feasibly appear in Infinity War, when asked about it at a Q&A. So I agree that the shows were established as canon. Thus, they are still canon until something changes, such as Feige de-canonizing them. I personally think that that will happen eventually, but that Marvel will drag their feet and straddle the fence as long as they can. I think they will want to be freed from some of the storylines that were created prior to Feige being in charge of Marvel TV. But that's just a theory. For now, they are canon until we hear differently.
@@BillyTheKidLawrence Oh, I hadn't heard that. Where did you see Feige say that? I agree, that's big news!
@@BillyTheKidLawrence Nice! I loved all of the seasons of AoS and in 2020, AoS was the only new Marvel content we got...and that last season was so much fun!
@@BillyTheKidLawrence Good article. I wish they would just use the word canon for once, but I agree, what he said made it sound like it is the same character. I think they will keep teasing us and avoiding the canon word, which is really frustrating, but I'm still super pumped for Born Again.
One year later: Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, The Defenders, and The Punisher have been added to the MCU timeline on Disney+. That answers the question that yes they are canon. Now we just have to wait and see if the other stuff will be added to the timeline.
Isn't that great! Yeah, of all the shows that could be added to official canon, the Netflix shows were the most likely. Agent Carter would be another strong candidate. It seems the other shows drifted too much from Feige's plans, so I suspect they won't be added back to canon status, but at this point, anything is possible!
@@AbitofEverything4U I can see Cloak & Dagger possibly being added since the Roxxon Oil Corporation was mentioned in Iron Man 3 and it has ties to the characters. But only time will tell or in this case K.E.V.I.N.
Yeah, I admit, I'd love to see C&D return. Very cool characters!
It's tricky, as a little known fact is that Cloak and Dagger is technically canon to Luke Cage, as it references Harlem City Police, and specifically Misty Knight. Stark Industries AND Rand Enterprises are also name dropped in Cloak and Dagger. I have yet to watch season 2 to comment on any other connections, but these at the minimum make Cloak and Dagger canon to Luke Cage and Iron Fist
Yeah, you are definitely correct about those connections between Luke Cage and Cloak and Dagger. And C&D is connected to Runaways as they all appear in an episode together. However, I think that if they decide to make Cage canon, it doesn't have to bring in C&D as the references were all one directional. In other words, C&D references Cage and Stark and Rand, but Cage doesn't reference C&D. So C&D could be in a universe that also has Cage but Cage can be in 616 w/o C&D. The key thing you said is that it is tricky and that is so true. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
U gotta watch s2.in S2 Luke cage is in the news paper written by Karen Page
@@wynsfield Oh, now that's sweet. So that's in C&D S2? Nice tie-in! Although I guess it's still a one directional link. In other words, Luke Cage doesn't reference C&D, even though C&D does reference Cage and Karen Page. But it's still really cool. Thanks for sharing that!
@@AbitofEverything4U yes it is really cool when it happened. enough to make me go so hyped!
@@wynsfield Yes, I love how interconnected they made everything. They were really doing all they could to make it one interwoven world!
The one issue that the Netflix series’ have is that Daredevil season 2 (I think) has an on screen WHIH news scroll that refers to the Inhuman crisis which occurred in AOS.
This makes sense because they’re all ABC produced, so were trying to remain canon to each other. So Inhumans are also canon to the Netflix shows. So it does draw a complicated line. I’d say any version of the Netflix characters will be a soft reboot in the main “616” timeline.
Good point on the Inhuman reference in the Netflix shows. I think the strategy will be that the Netflix shows happened as originally aired, but that will be off in the multiverse somewhere. However, in the 616, any element of the shows that Marvel wants to pull forward is at their disposal, but they can ignore anything they don't like.
They should George Lucas the Netflix shows by removing and adding stuff just to fix the continuity if it were to be in the 616 timeline!
@@Jimbo1221 I’d actually be okay with that tbh.
@@Jimbo1221 Good analogy. I suspect that's what's coming. We will likely get a good hint when Daredevil shows up in She-Hulk Ep 6.
@@Jimbo1221 there aren't many continuity issues though
the Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and Runaways Darkhold issue isn't really an issue at all though. In AoS we were shown that it could adapt it's appearance depending on the person reading it, like showing binary to an LMD or a different language for someone with that language as a first language. Though we never saw the cover change its appearance, I don't think it's a big leap to assume it can change too.
I think that's a great point. It may still leave the question of how the Darkhold moved around from AoS to Runaways and then to Agatha. It seems like Agatha had it for quite awhile. But another solution is there were multiple copies, which likely solves that as well. So perhaps the Darkhold isn't going to be a sticking point. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
@@AbitofEverything4U this is completely my own head cannon but I liked the idea that Morgan somehow got the Darkhold away from Robbie in the dark dimension and then Robbie got it back to the dark dimension and gave it Mephisto who then gave it to Agatha, obviously there is no basis to any of that but it's the most fun I can have with it haha
@@luckycatGK Nice! That's the great thing about head canon...you can create whatever scenario works for you...and then in some cases it actually turns out to be the direction that Marvel goes!
And Multiverse of Madness explained that the book was just a copy of the inscriptions from Mount Wundagore. So, it is entirely possible that the Agents of SHIELD Darkhold and the WandaVision Darkhold are different copies of the Darkhold.
@@AbitofEverything4U here's a bit more for you! aos 616 returned to a different universe when they jumped back to earth in season 5 (bringing dek shaw). now pull that forward and you could find fitz stopping for a coffee on the way to the lab (after the end of shield season 7). he runs into jemma serving behind the counter as he talks to jemma on the phone. at this point he knows they never made it back to their own universe. he goes out and builds a gate system to bridge the multiverses, and daisy, fitz, and jemma start looking for their home universe.
After watching this video last night, here's my opinion. In my personal opinion, i think Shield, Agent Carter (Though the Marvel Studios book confirm the show is still canon), Runaways and Cloak and Dagger, and obviously The Defenders are canon. Inhumans, i hated that show and honestly i want it to be non canon but judging by Anson Mount returning which i loved him as Black Bolt in the show, it might as well be canon from my POV. Helstrom is non canon but i heard originally it was but Disney, Marvel, and even the showrunner of Helstrom confirmed its not canon. Modok and Hit Monkey were never MCU. But i the shows i listed should remain canon since it proved great stories and expansion the MCU's universe. I love the characters and the cast and i like to see others return now that Charlie Cox, Vincent D'Onfrio, and Anson Mount are back. As for Legion and the Gifted, i know they're not MCU but i wanted to say that Fox and Marvel confirmed the shows are not canon to the X Men movie universe like you said in the video, but these two shows aren't in the same universe as each other either which is weird.
@Dedric Silva, I watched every one of the pre-Disney shows and I assumed they were all canon up until they were ultimately all cancelled. I also think Marvel and Feige considered them canon at the time they were released. And even now, I would take the position they are 616 canon until proven otherwise.
However, I do think we are seeing something similar to how Disney ignored much what was previously canon with Star Wars when they took over and then they slowly have decided what to bring into canon over time. We are seeing the same thing with the pre-Disney+ shows. Disney has not included them on the platform's timeline, even though the Disney+ shows and one shots (including Agent Carter) are in the Disney+ timeline. And now they are bringing in the characters slowly, but are still not indicating how much of their backstory is coming along with them.
Taking this approach allows Marvel to ignore elements that don't work (the Darkhold in Runaways and AoS being different than in WandaVision and MoM, the time travel in Runaways and AoS not following the Endgame rules, the Inhumans storyline in AoS and the Inhumans show being basically ignored, AoS season 6 making no mention of the snap, AoS season 7 featuring what appears to be SWORD but not tying into the Far From Home version, Agent Carter's series not tying into the canon One Shot) and Marvel can bring in the elements that they do feel work (Kingpin, Daredevil, Kingpin's apartment from season 3, Kingpin's cufflinks, etc).
I suspect some additional things will be jettisoned, as I have a gut feeling they will eliminate Iron Fist from ever existing, they will redo Electra's storyline, they will redo Bullseye's story, they will redo Ghost Rider. But these are just hunches, so we have to wait and see about those. But I think Marvel is intentionally avoiding the 616 canon issue for now and will reveal it in time. So again, it's all canon until they specifically say it isn't or until something directly contradicts a given show.
Thanks so much for watching the video and commenting. I really enjoy the feedback!
@@AbitofEverything4U As much as I don't want it to happen, you're probably correct.
@Eugger Yeah, it makes me sad as well if the shows continue to drift away from 616 canon. I guess as long as we keep getting good stories with Daredevil, Kingpin, Jessica Jones and the rest, then it's still a big win in the end.
@@AbitofEverything4U I know this seems complicated but my theory with agents of shield is it started in cannon but because of their time travel stuff it split into a new timeline right before the snap. My main reason I say this is in the final episode of the show fitz reveals he discovered the quantum realm and that they split of from the main timeline and could theoretically get back to 616. So who’s to say the “sword” ship they went to at the end of the show wasn’t the one from far from home. It just seems weird that the writers would include a concept like the quantum realm into the final even tho they know the show isn’t cannon. It directly ties into endgame.
About the darkhold. In multiverse of madness it’s revealed it was just a copy of knowledge from that mountain. So who’s to say there aren’t different versions in the same universe copied by different people.
I’m just saying marvel could make aos cannon if they choose. Although I wouldn’t be mad if one day they do bring back the characters and say the show was never canon but because of maybe secret wars or somthing quake and the gang get involved
@@jaxsin3856 Nice! Yes, I actually had the same theory about AoS. You explained it very well! I agree that it sure looked like they split into a different timeline and then used the quantum realm to return. I do suspect the writers did that to try to find a way to tie back into 616 again. Will be very interesting to see what Marvel decides to do with the AoS crew. I loved that show and watched every episode so I would be very happy if they found a way to make it work.
I'm not sure about The Gifted but I think Legion was kinda sorta intended to be a canon-ish side story/sequel to First Class. The main character was Xavier's son in the comics and with the characterization of Xavier as a womanizing young man at the beginning, it's plausible he might have a son he either doesn't know about or can't take the time to acknowledge with everything going on.
Yes, that's how I took it as well. It seems like Legion was meant to be canon to the Fox universe. I think Gifted also tried it's best, likely fitting in at some point where the X-men were in hiding or at least less active. I enjoyed both of those series and I think your explanation works perfectly. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I personally loved Ironfist s1 and s2. My prediction is that since Ironfist and Shang chi’s stories are kind of similar that Shang chi 2 could include Ironfist as a 2nd main character. I think shaun and Danny’s characters would mesh well together on screen and they’d probably have a friendly rivalry plus I definitely think they’d butt heads quite frequently. I personally think that Shang chi 2 is probably the best way to officially bring back Ironfist
I'll admit that I didn't like Iron Fist S1 as much but I did like him in Defenders and then S2 was much better and the ending left me wanting a S3. So I think it started off abit rocky but ended well. I also loved the dynamic with Luke Cage. They brought that forward from the comics really well. I had heard that Finn, the actor playing Iron Fist, wasn't into doing his stunt work for S1, which is why the fight scenes weren't as good as the ones in S2. But that could just be a rumor. Anyway, I do like the idea of Iron Fist being introduced via Shang Chi. I agree, those two would butt heads, but also would form a good friendship. Great theories...Will be interesting to see what they do with Iron Fist going forward. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
They're as canon as Taiwan being part of China: officially, yes. In practical, not so much. Both Agent Carter and Daredevil (and maybe by extension the other netflix shows) get to be the lucky ones because the former had involvement from various Marvel Studios people (including Endgame writers and Feige himself) while the latter is due to fans campaigning for it to be saved. The other shows will probably be ignored forever, unfortunately. They ignore the fact that SHIELD is still supposed to be around and in it's former glory, having been rebuilt by a new director. They retconned the Darkhold's design and functionality and retconned all the established time travel rules from Runaways which would also be Agents of SHIELD's time travel rules if it weren't for them getting two more seasons which allowed them to retcon their own time travel from season 5 to try to make it fit with Endgame's rules (and it still didn't quite fit).
Great analysis! I agree with all your points. I am still curious to see if Daredevil is considered canon down the road. Right now it seems Marvel is walking the fence line and not saying if it is or it isn't canon. They drop hints here and there but they are often contradictory.
My personal feeling is that all TV shows prior to D+ will end up being canon to the multiverse (i.e. not 616 canon) but that any story ideas that Marvel likes will be pulled into 616. So it will feel like the characters that do appear in 616 are familiar, but not quite the same. It's likely the best of both worlds for Marvel.
Anyway, thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
WHIH Newsfront with Christine Everhart. In the news ticker on one episode it said: "ATCU continues investigation into militant organization that destroyed their facility." MIC DROP.
@@SRSOSChannel2 I do love those WHiH Newsfront spots. They are amazing. That said, I'm not sure they are considered canon. I can't even find them on Disney+, which honestly bums me out even if they aren't canon. I wish they were all online somewhere. But I don't know that those spots are official canon and so the mention of Agents of SHIELD may not be a hard connect in that case.
Agent Carter, Agents Of Shield, Runaways, Cloak and Dagger, The Defender shows are canon.
Watch this: ruclips.net/video/qMNQfoxJ5p0/видео.html
He should do more research on Agents Of Shield they explained the Darkhold looking different. Plus, Multiverse Of Madness said there are copies.
For not addressing the snap Captain America said "some people moved on."
Helstrom mentioned Roxxon.
I really hate people saying "multiverse canon."
@Hank Simp Thanks for the comments and feedback. You are correct that MoM said that multiple copies of the Darkhold exist, but he was referring to across the multiverse. I don't believe it meant in the same universe, but I could be wrong.
I think that main point I was making in the video is that Marvel has so far been riding the fence on things. They have not said the shows aren't canon to 616 and they have not said they are canon to 616. Marvel has so far avoided putting them in the Disney+ timeline, even though they did put the Agent Carter one-shot in the timeline. So that means Marvel is keeping them to the side for now and will make a decision on them down the road.
There are also additional concerns beyond the Darkhold that I mention. The entire inhumans storyline has been basically ignored in 616 and with Ms. Marvel now being a mutant, that further moves away from the inhumans story. SWORD has not acknowledged any of the Agents of Shield that seemed to join that organization in the final season and Secret Invasion may resolve that one way or another. Ghost Rider's formal inclusion in 616 will be another big indicator of AoS 616 canon status.
The Netflix shows will become more clear as time goes on, but I strongly suspect Iron Fist will be ignored and that creates some big issues. And Runaways had totally different time travel logic, so that makes it tough to reconcile with Endgame.
So I'm basically saying that there are alot of issues to resolve, but that Marvel has still left the door open for them to be 616 canon. We have to wait and see what the future holds. Thanks again for watching!
@Giovanni Giovanni Thanks for the video suggestion to watch. It's pretty long, but I'll give it a go. What I am most interested in is resolving the issues that each show presents. If that video does that, then it will indeed be very helpful. Appreciate you watching and commenting!
@Giovanni Giovanni I have now watched the video you suggested and I thought it was good. I enjoyed their passion for the canonicity of the shows, not just as being in the multiverse, but as being canon to 616. I watched every one of the shows and up until they were ultimately all cancelled, I assumed they were canon. I also think Marvel and Feige considered them canon and even now, I would take the position they are canon until proven otherwise.
However, I do think we are seeing something similar to how Disney ignored much what was previously canon with Star Wars when they took over and then they slowly have decided what to bring into canon over time. We are seeing the same thing with the pre-Disney+ shows. Disney has not included them on the platform's timeline, even though the Disney+ shows and one shots are in the main timeline. And now they are bringing in the characters slowly, but are still not indicating how much of their backstory is coming along with them.
Taking this approach allows Marvel to ignore elements that don't work (the Darkhold in Runaways and AoS being different than in WandaVision and MoM, the time travel in Runaways and AoS not following the Endgame rules, the Inhumans storyline being basically ignored, AoS season 6 making no mention of the snap, AoS season 7 featuring what appears to be SWORD but not tying into the Far From Home version, Agent Carter's series not tying into the canon One Shot) and bringing in the elements that they do feel work (Kingpin, Daredevil, Kingpin's apartment from season 3, Kingpin's cufflinks, etc).
I suspect some additional things will be jettisoned, as I have a gut feeling they will eliminate Iron Fist from ever existing (just a hunch), they will redo Electra's storyline, they will redo Bullseye's story, they will redo Ghost Rider, etc. But we have to wait and see about those. But I think Marvel is intentionally avoiding the issue for now and will reveal it in time.
Anyway, thanks for the video suggestion. I enjoyed watching it.
@@AbitofEverything4U Your welcome and happy to bring you to the side of what the shows have always been and that is being canon.
I'd like to make some additions to what's been said actually.
About Inhumans, it actually tied in with AoS, they mentioned the inhumans outbreak from AoS and they even had the Kree symbols from AoS in the Inhumans city on the moon.
About Helstrom, it does have some small connections (a newspaper mentions the Sokovia Accords for instance), but they probably removed most of them after the Kevin Feige thing. However, it really doesn't contradict anything so why not.
In Multiverse of Madness we are told that the darkhold is just a copy of the things written on Mount Wundagore. It is very possible that, just like Agatha got a copy of the Darkhold herself, Morgan Le Fay got one copy for herself and that her copy then got lost, was found in Agents of Shield and then Morgan retrieved it from the Ghost Rider after AoS season 4 and before Runaways season 3.
And if you don't like this explanation, WandaVision director/writer confirmed we can consider them as the same book.
As for the Runaways time travel, well, in the Marvel Studios movies and shows we have already seen something similar (in Dr Strange, What If and Ms Marvel). I guess there are cases when time loops/predestinations are allowed and the Runaways stuff is probably one of those.
Also, speaking of time travel, Agents of Shield season 7 time travel actually follows the rules of Endgame and they even used the Quantum Realm. The characters wrongly thought they were in the same timeline, but Fitz in the last episode explained it all and it was exactly like Endgame.
For Ghost Rider, in AoS itself we are told that there exist multiple Ghost Riders, we even see Johnny Blaze giving the powers to Robbie Reyes and multiple characters become Ghost Rider in that series.
As for the AoS series finale, they may very well be working for Fury and Saber, not Sword. We also see in movies like Far From Home that Shield is still around.
As for the snap not being mentioned in AoS. A year has passed and the main cast didn't got snapped (just like the original six Avengers didn't). They are focusing on other stuff, just because they don't mention it it doesn't mean it didn't happen, I mean, so far SheHulk is the only thing which mentioned in a small cameo the celestial coming out of the Earth, does that mean that things like Ms Marvel (that does a lot of references but not a single one to Eternals) is not canon?
As for Mockingbird, it is just a title, Hawkeye's wife retired a long time ago, for all we know she could have been succeeded by AoS Mockingbird at that time.
As for the Defenders stuff, they all make references to each other and to the other Marvel Television shows. Basically all these shows are a "all in one package".
There are more things I could say, but this is already too long.
I appreciate that you tried to approach this topic with good intentions (usually people who dismiss those shows as non-canon are aggressive towards us who believe otherwise), but, after having watched all of them and all of the Marvel Studios stuff, I still think the following things were and still are canon:
- Agents of Shield
- Slingshot
- Agent Carter
- Inhumans
- Helstrom
- Runaways
- Cloak and Dagger
- Daredevil
- Jessica Jones
- Luke Cage
- Iron Fist
- Punisher
- Defenders
Excellent feedback! I got so many helpful comments on this video about ties between the shows that I did a follow-on video going thru them in much more detail. If you haven't seen it yet, check this one out and let me know what you think: ruclips.net/video/hAOoXq_owrI/видео.html.
Regarding your comments:
- About Inhumans, I did indeed cover these connections in the follow-on video. They are alot more tied than I at first remembered.
- About Helstrom, I did indeed cover the newspaper connection in the follow-on video. I even mentioned another small connection you might enjoy.
- About the Darkhold, I definitely missed that comment in Multiverse of Madness and I am now convinced that the book has different copies and so it isn't an issue at all.
- About Runaways time travel, I still don't like it and I've heard some fans of the show just saying the last episode isn't canon. But regardless, I do agree there are several different forms of time travel and perhaps time only branches if you travel via the quantum realm? That could perhaps explain things.
- About the Agents of Shield season 7 time travel, you are right about Fitz's comment and in fact, I have since used his comment in lots of videos. I still don't like Deke's comment that we can "splash around abit", but I wonder if they just didn't realize they had actually branched off.
- About Ghost Rider, I am probably most concerned about this one. I hope they don't mess up AoS when Ghost Rider next appears, as there are many ways to make it work. But for now, everything is fine.
- About the AoS series finale, I think they may very well be working for Fury and Saber, not Sword. That would work.
- About not mentioning the Snap, I think it's really weird, but I agree that it could be that with a year having passed it just didn't come up as often.
- As for Mockingbird, your explanation works well.
- As for the Defenders stuff, I agree, it will be very hard to not bring them all over as a unit.
Again thanks so much for your excellent comments!
@@AbitofEverything4U
Thank you for your reply.
I've already got that video you've linked in my Watch Later playlist and I'm eager to watch it next.
I'm glad I was able to help with the Darkhold thing. It was very confusing and shocking at first for everyone, but, between the comments of the screenwriter of WandaVision and that new info from Multiverse of Madness, I don't think that's a problem anymore.
Not just that, but actually the two versions of the Darkhold share a lot in common with each other in terms of what they do to their users and what they offer in exchange. I especially liked the similarity between Aida that wanted to make her fake Framework self real via the Darkhold and Wanda that wanted to make her fake Hex children real via the Darkhold.
Also, yeah, I really dislike the Runaways time travel too actually, but it's really a shame to throw out three seasons just for that last episode.
Fortunately, other Marvel Studios properties had similar things (like Ms Marvel) that makes me think that there are a few time loop/predestination instances where time can be rewritten. To be fair, we don't even know for sure that the future Runaways timeline got erased, it is implied, but for all we know they may just be getting back to their future while leaving our present as a branched timeline.
But yeah, AoS time travel instead was actually totally consistent all the way through.
The agents themselves were led to believe they were in the same branch, which led to their "splashes" comments, and it seems that Fitz actually wanted them to believe it for his plan to work out, but in the end, when he arrives from the Quantum Realm, he clears any doubts both for the characters and the audience.
I also have a personal theory about how Fitz figured out the Quantum Realm time travel, he basically copied the Avengers work. We know both Fitz and Simmons were away during that time working on how to win the situation, so, considering their daughter, it's safe to assume they were working on it for at least four years, which is exactly when Endgame happened (since season 6 is one year after Infinity War). Not to take away their geniuses, but it lines up so well.
Anyway, the agents were only in an alternate timeline during the first half of season 5 and the majority of season 7, but during the rest of the series and during the finale they are totally back in the main timeline.
Also, I wouldn't worry too much about Ghost Rider; I guess we'll have to wait and see, but AoS already showed us that there can be multiple Ghost Riders at the same time and that a "Johnny Blaze"-like character already exists. There's also the fact that a lot of people are petitioning for a Gabriel Luna return and he is very open to the idea, so who knows, they may give us both riders in the future.
Finally, I agree that it would have been cool to mention the snap in AoS season 6/7. I've heard that there is a deleted scene (which was not released to the public) where they actually directly mention it, but, at any rate, there's a good enough explanation for them not talking about it so it really doesn't really bother me. As I said in my previous comment, it's just like people not constantly talking about Ultron or the Celestials from Eternals, despite those being big events that totally happened.
Well said on all points. I completely agree. Really hoping when Quake returns that Marvel will tie it all together!
Agents of shield originally came out as like an tie in canon tv show witg the main MCU but I guess since it was a different company making the show then the movie connectivity was hard. I wanna say AOS season 1-4 could be canon as the later seasons deal with alien invasions and avengers level world ending threats so it's def gonna be hard to explain that as Canon.
Yeah, that's my take as well...the first several season fit really well into canon and then it started to diverge as things went further and further along. Will be very interesting to see what Marvel does with AoS!
@@AbitofEverything4U yep I loved the show hopefully they make it canon
Fingers crossed!
I believe Helstrom is canon in the MCU 616, the series didn't mention the snap from Thanos but in episode 3 of Helstrom Caretaker was reading a news paper and it mentions the sokovia accords so maybe Helstrom takes place after the events of Captain America Civil War and before Avengers Infinity. So in Episode 10 Finale of Helstrom when Marduk took Lily from Yen so he and Lily can take their Revenge on Daimon and Ana the screen turned black but we don't know what happens since the show is not getting a second season. Wherever Daimon and Ana are in the MCU I'm sure we'll see pop up weather in a Marvel Studios Special presentation Halloween special if their played by the same actors which i would love to see Kevin bring back.
Yeah, Helstrom is one of the hardest shows to figure out. I went abit more into it in this video: ruclips.net/video/t34jqFg1iyY/видео.html. It includes some of the comments from the creative team that seems to indicate it was never intended to be canon, but it's still not as conclusive as I'd like. Hopefully one day Feige will confirm if it's canon or not and I agree, I'd love to see some of the same actors come back at some point. That would be great! Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
@@AbitofEverything4U also in Episode 1 of Helstrom when Ana was talking to Caretaker she did mention Cairo which also Moon Knight is from Cairo that's gotta be connection or something
@@StickAdventuresTheBeginnings Yeah, I always assumed it was meant to be canon. But the creative team seemed to indicate otherwise. Regardless, I like to consider it canon, myself.
I think ultimately they might not be canon as a whole but are in parts. Marvel Studios is probably going to choose carefully what to reference.
And i mean reference, i expect them not to hsve deep connections like how the disney+ shows are. The reason why I think this is because they are in a sticky situation... Im sure they don't wanna alienate fans of these shows, so i don't think they will ever confirm them not being canon but I'm sure they don't wanna alienate the other millions of mcu fans who have not watched them by referencing them heavily to the point of making them required watch.
I personally don't see any of these shows breaking canon outside of the last two seasons of agents of shield. I could clearly tell that there was a lack of communication between the two divisions because of one thing, Thanos. They reference thanos in season 5 but it's clear that the only thing they knew about infinity war was that thanos will be tje villian. The way the aliens in season 5 speak of thanos is as if thanos is just coming to attack earth and not that he wants to snap the world. They seem to not care about thanos because he a threat to only earth... The agents of shield team definately made their best to fill in the gaps but it does ultimately contradict
Soo to end things off... By saying they noncanon as a whole but canon in parts I mean that some parts of them might have also happened in 616 but others didn't... (example, they could say season 1-4 of agents of shield happened but seasons 5 to 7 didn't...heck season 4 ended in such a way that they could easily retcon things and ssy that Enoch at the enf of the season took the crew to the SWORD space station instead of taking them to the future)
Great analysis. I think you are correct that Marvel will keep walking the tightrope and not say if the Pre-D+ shows are or are not canon and will instead just reference them lightly. It keeps everyone happy...well, other than those of us that want a firm answer. But I suspect you are correct that we won't get a firm answer. It's just too alienating for Marvel to answer it. Thanks so much for watching the video and sharing your detailed analysis. I really appreciate it!
Yeah, time travel rules are a bit different in AoS from Endgame but The Quantum Realm is shown in the series finale. Maybe they could canonise it by saying that Kang allowed it in the same way that he allowed the Avengers to change timelines. It is also possible that the Darkhold from Runaways and WandaVision are the same book due to the fact that in the comics the Darkhold has the power to change its appearance. Bit, that could also left unexplained the fact that it doesn't have the same powers as it had in MoM 🤔
Yeah, good point about AoS mentioning the Quantum Realm. I thought it was wild that they brought that into the equation, yet still had differing rules from Endgame time travel. I think the Darkhold is a really tough thing for AoS and Runaways to reconcile with WandaVision and I also suspect that the introduction of Ghost Rider into 616 MCU will cause issues with how his character was treated in AoS. AoS S 1-3 fit well with 616 canon, but it gets trickier after that. Should be interesting to see how things continue to play out over time. Anyway, thanks so much for watching and adding your thoughts!
The problem with the Darkhold changing appearence is that in MofM we saw a copy of it feom another universe and it kinda implies that the Wandavision one is the "base form".
It also has the problem of not respecting the Language rule that it had in AofS where it's shown in the main language of the user.
@@FranciscoRamirez-nb4uu Good points. Yeah, I've always felt the Darkhold is a stumbling block for the canon status of Runaways and AoS.
Could you explain how the time travel in Agents of SHIELD was different from Endgame? I think it follows Endgame's multiversal time travel rules perfectly. Deke did not disappear when his future's been changed. I can't say the same for the Runaways, however.
@@SeanWheeler100 I think for me the idea that they learned about their future and used it to change their present was an issue. Perhaps that doesn't break the Endgame rules, but it still seemed like they affected their present by using time travel. That said, if they branched at that point, then I think it all works out.
an issue with the Netflix series' is that when there is a newyork plan we don t see the stark tower
Totally! That stuff drives me crazy. And, in Ms. Marvel we see the Statue of Liberty back to it's green color even though it was restored to bronze in No Way Home. Guess they didn't have the budget to colorize it. Sigh.
I see agent's of shield as an what if scenario. What if Fury revived Coulson with Tahiti. I think it's possible that the tahiti project exists in the main time line, but Fury decided not to revive coulson here, because he knew that the test subjects got insane after the procedure
I am beginning to suspect that is the case. I think Agents of Shield started out as canon but either drifted away from canon at some point or Feige will decide to uncanonize all the seasons. I guess it would be nice if Marvel would confirm it one way or another, but I do suspect you are right. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I think the versions that will be used in future projects will be variants with similar pasts, that way they can pick and choose what they want to establish as Canon, like I, and many others would be happy if they brought back David Tennant as Killgrave, but they could only do that if it's a variants, and of course there's a bunch of other examples of things fans and Marvel want to happen that can't happen without establishing that the other characters were variants
Yes, I think Marvel will indeed go in that type of direction. Another similar theory to what you are suggesting is that all of the Netflix shows happened exactly as they were released, but in a different universe (i.e. not 616). Then, in the 616, Marvel can pick and choose any elements that they want and say they they happened in the main universe. It's sorta a win-win, as it allows the original stories to exist as is in a different universe but allows Marvel to use anything they want from them in 616 and to jettison anything they don't want. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your theories!
Also cloak and dagger makes a reference to Luke cage so if you make that not canon then the Netflix shows not canon. I see the issues but I feel like most of them can be explained, so I would say the Netflix shows, shield, Inhumans, agent carter, cloak and dagger, runaways, basically every show (not counting the ones he mentioned before runaways) are canon. And btw the darkhold is a magical book. I feel like it could change its cover if it wanted to and also, the dark hold was based off ruins meaning that there could of been more than one darkhold and dr strange just didn’t realized it.
Yeah, you are definitely correct about the reference to Luke Cage by Cloak and Dagger. And C&D is connected to Runaways as they all appear in an episode together. However, I think that if they decide to make Cage canon, it doesn't have to bring in C&D as the references were all one directional. In other words, C&D references Cage, but Cage doesn't reference C&D. So C&D could be in a different universe that also has Cage but Cage can be in 616 w/o C&D.
I think time will continue to show whether certain shows can be considered canon. My gut tells me that no show will fully be considered canon, as I suspect that even the Netflix shows will diverge somewhat. So when Daredevil has his new Disney+ series, they may ignore certain story points from the Nextflx series. I think Marvel will make it so that all of the shows happen in a different universe as is, but in 616, Marvel will assume that any parts of they shows that they want to use did actually happen in 616 as well. It's a weird choice, but it seems to be how Marvel is handling it right now. But we will learn more as the characters start officially appearing in the MCU.
Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really like hearing other people's theories on all of this. So many great ideas!
@@AbitofEverything4U C&D actually makes references to both Luke cage and daredevil. Here’s a vid show casing the linking references ruclips.net/video/4TqyTddpjbU/видео.html
@@NoirVibesYT Yeah, they really did a good job with all the series feeling like they are in the same world. I still suspect that C&D can be removed w/o hurting the Netflix shows, since the connections were one-way, but I hope C&D remains canon. I suspect we will learn more in the months to come as more and more characters from pre-D+ shows make their way formally into the 616 MCU.
Looking back - I think AoS' time travel complimented Loki's rendition. The Thanos thing is what got em. Hawkeye's Mockingbird doesn't directly affect AoS's Mockingbird. Bobby may not have been Agent 17. Agent 17 may not have been Mockingbird. Perhaps, the mantle has been carried by multiple people.
To explain the Carter One-Shot and the show, think of the former Breaking Bad and latter as Better Call Saul if it ended after the first 2 seasons. Basically what happened with AC.
Great feedback on how to resolve the AoS and main MCU items that can seem at first like contradictions. I do hope we get an official answer on which pre-D+ shows are still considered canon. Perhaps the timeline book will finally address it.
As for Agent Carter, I finally figured out how to make the timeline work. If you haven't seen my ABC Shows Timeline vid, then check it out and let me know if you like how I solved it. The vid is found here: ruclips.net/video/dAgteDyx6MU/видео.html.
Thanks for all the great feedback. Really appreciate it!
Okay, so, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. was created by Joss Whedon and his brother, Jed. And Jed stayed on as a writer and executive producer throughout the run of the show. And so, during the first two seasons of the show, while Joss was still working on Marvel movies, it made the connections far easier to do, as Joss knew what was happening in all the other movies, as well as what was happening in his own movies. So I think when he wrote Age of Ultron and was linking Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. season 2 to the film, he did that vedy intentionally, and the line in Age of Ultron referring to a friend is likely supposed to be Coulson, he just didn't say his name because the Avengers still think he's dead.
With Agent Carter, that was at least executive produced by the Russo brothers, and they've worked on a ton of shows in their filmmaking career, so I fully think they consider the show to be canon and that the Jarvis in Endgame is THE SAME Jarvis from Agent Carter.
Those two shows are the only examples where crestors directly involved with the films were involved with the TV shows. Does this make them more likely to be canon than the other shows? I don't know. Agent Carter is about a character from the movies, and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has the strongest references to the movies, as well, even keeping a good level of consistency with the films when they didn't have as much knowledge of what would happen in them.
Excellent feedback. Yeah, on the surface AoS and Agent Carter seem the most likely to be considered canon due to the ties with the creators of the movies. That said, AoS eventually veered off from the MCU, with things like the Inhumans outbreak, the Chromicrons, the Hydra cult, etc. On the other hand, the Netflix shows were done without any input from the creators of the films, but those shows stayed in their lane and didn't create any continuity concerns, so ig I'm not surprised Marvel seems to be pulling them into canon. I just wish Marvel would give us a clear direction once and for all. Fingers cross that will happens sooner than later.
My opinion on the TV Series:
1- Adventure into Fear - Non-canon
2- Young Adult Series - Non-canon
3- ABC Series - Canon (Multiverse)
4- Defenders Saga - Canon (Multiverse)
Yes, I completely agree. I think that is very likely where things will land. It gives Marvel the most flexibility going forward but also allows the original shows to exist in their entirety in the multiverse and even allows for some characters to appear during Secret Wars if desired.
Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
The way my headcanon works is that Agent Carter is the only Marvel TV confirmed canon to the MCU as mentioned in the Marvel Studios book. They said that it was the first show with canon storytelling. A reasonable explanation for Peggy's treatment in the one -shot is simply cuz her current coworkers at the time weren't involved in her actions and simply don't care wat she did. The rest of the productions r as u said: non-canon (with canon elements only) until Marvel Studios says otherwise.
Another way to see it is that Marvel TV exists in it's own parallel universe where certain events of 616 occur while others don't. In this parallel universe, phase 1 and 2 as well as civil war definitely take place. Dr. strange and runaways are contradictory cuz a different Tina Minoru and Staff of One appear in the movie. This universe has its own Darkhold. All the MTV shows are proven to be canon to one another already (except Fox, Hit Monkey, Modok)
I can explain a lot more but the comment is already long as it is. I hope it all makes sense
Very well stated. Yes, I agree, all of the TV shows (except the 3 odd ones) likely exist in a different universe (i.e. not 616) so they are all canon in the multi-verse in that regard. Then, Marvel can pick and choose from the story elements they want to use and consider only those elements to have also happened in 616. I suspect that is what they will do with Daredevil, for instance.
As for Agent Carter being canon, I'd love that to be the case. However, I have found that Marvel has changed direction on canon a few times. They used to make cross-over comics that fleshed out the movie elements, but they seem to consider those non-canon now. Feige stated at one point that the Netflix Defenders were likely in Endgame and we just didn't see them coming out of their portal, but I think he likely doesn't feel that way anymore. So even with the Marvel Book stating Agent Carter is canon, I have to scratch my head why they won't include it in the Disney+ timeline and instead only include the one-shot. So strange.
Anyway, great comments! Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
The whole time travel thing isn't a deal breaker for me since Endgame's time travel rules weren't even consistent at all *in Endgame.* So as a Doctor Who enjoyer, I'm very willing to accept that time travel in the MCU can work in whatever way the writer of a certain story wants. I'm not familiar enough with the two shows that had their own Darkhold, but magic is also quite inconsistent in the MCU so maybe we can still say it was the same Darkhold.
I really hope they don't pick and choose what's canon from the Netflix shows; Iron Fist gets a lot of hate but I don't think that justifies contradicting the small part of the MCU he occupies. I would actually love to see them run with the similarities between him and Shang-Chi, they could be great friends and make each other better characters.
I know what you mean about time travel being confusing. I did a video going into great detail on that. I actually think Endgame makes more sense then it seems at first, so check out that video if you get a chance.
But I do agree that if Marvel starts to pick and choose what is and is not canon, it will become a mess quickly. So I suspect they will hold off on making the decision for as long as they can and may just leave it up to us to decide. I do suspect, however, that contradictions will start to appear if they aren't careful.
Anyway, only time will tell. But I do really appreciate you watching and sharing your feedback. I think your points make alot of sense!
I personally think that all the Netflix and ABC shows are technically canon to 616, but they don’t and should not affect the main MCU. But also, it wouldn’t be too terrible if they were connected lightly somehow through the multiverse.
I also have a theory that the Netflix and ABC shows are in another universe like 617, so they just have minor changes, like Coulson actually dies in 616 but was revived in 617, where Agents of Shield take place. Same could be with Agent Carter connecting to the One-shot.
All of the others shows are not canon.
I would rather all of them just not be canon though to make things easier.
I really like that theory. I think that all of the pre-D+ shows happened, but happened in a different universe (such as 617, like you suggest) and that 617 was the same as 616 up to and including Avengers movie. So, if it was a What If universe, the What If would be "What if Agent Coulson was brought back from the dead?". Thus, anyone that enjoyed watching them (I personally liked them alot) can enjoy them as is because they really did happen.
Then, in 616, Marvel can pull in any storylines they liked from the pre-D+ shows and ignore they ones they want to change. So Daredevil is in 616, but not everything that happened in 617 happened in 616. As an example, if they want to redo Elektra in 616, they can ignore that storyline from 617. If they want to pretend Iron Fist never happened in 616 (definitely my least favorite), then the Defenders never met, but there was still a Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, but their stories didn't include anything from the point of Iron Fist entering the scene. It gives Marvel max flexibility but also lets fans still enjoy the shows as originally released.
Anyway, love your theory. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
I think AoS is canon until they time travel to the future (to that Kree ship). The moment they time travel they branch off from the 616 universe. I know that still conflicts with the Darkhold... but I think that the most important part of the book is that it corrupts its wielder. I think they will go for Johnny Blaze as Ghost Rider instead of Robbie Reyes, so they could explain that with some multiverse shenanigans.
Yes, I feel that they branched at that point as well. In fact, in S7, Fitz mentions that they branched, but I think he was more referring to the time travel in that season. But still, they do acknowledge branching.
On the Darkhold, I'm more okay with it after Multiverse of Madness explained there can be multiple copies. So therefore they could look different. I do feel Ghost Rider could be the biggest stumbling block.
End of the day, I really Liked AoS and I will remember it fondly whether it is in 616 or not. But I suspect that several of the seasons could indeed be considered 616 canon.
Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I think the most likely option for them to canonize marvel netflix is to retcon some things like the hand and iron fist. For IF I think they'll do what they did to Thor, with his personality change between AoU to Ragnarok. Basically saying that the character is much different now.
And as for the hand, I think they'll do it so that the one in the defenders is just a big faction of the hand and not the entire organization. I think it's their best option to keep the old stuff but do their own (and probably better) take on the hand.
Yes, I agree that the most problematic thing about the Netflix shows is the Hand and then Iron Fist in general. I liked how things started out in DD S1 with the Hand, but things got (quite literally) "out of hand" after that. But other than the Hand, Iron Fist, and perhaps Electra coming back in the Defenders, I think that the Neflix shows work very well in MCU 616 canon. Will be interesting to see where they go with things. Thanks so much for watching and adding your thoughts!
I think with a bit of trimming, all the Netflix shows could've happened during the Blip. Trim down the fat, modify if needed and it could fit. Like Hawkeye could mention he heard there was an even deadlier vigilante out there far outdoing his Ronin persona - referring to the Punisher. Or Matt Murdock mentioning in his next appearence that he can work in a team he did that before - referring to the Defenders.
What they could also do: Have Luke Cage show up somewhere, like in a Spiderman movie, just as a cameo. He's very street level, don't have to join in the big action. I could also see Jessica Jones appearing with him, if they're together. Or leave her out, superhero stuff is not for her anyways, she's a PI now. Danny Rand could totally appear in something related to Shang Chi tho.
PS: there are people who re-edit certain things to be better. (like the re-edit of the Kenobi series into a 2 hour movie). I wonder if someone could re-edit the Netflix series to fit into the MCU
Great comments. I'm going to play off of your comments and take things a slightly different direction, but I think it will ultimately tie back to your idea of an "MCU Netflix edit" that includes only the elements that are ultimately deemed to be canon. It's weird, because when Netflix shows (and AoS, Runaways, etc) were released, they were all considered canon. But with Feige now over Marvel TV, I am wondering if Marvel will take a different direction.
I think that all of the pre-D+ shows happened exactly as aired, but happened in a different universe in the multiverse (we could call it universe 617). 617 could be considered the same as 616 up to and including the first Avengers movie. So, if it was a What If universe, the What If would be "What if Agent Coulson was brought back from the dead?". Thus, anyone that enjoyed watching the pre-D+ shows (I personally liked them alot) can enjoy them as is because they really did happen, it was just in universe 617.
Then, in 616, Marvel can pull in any storylines they liked from the pre-D+ shows and ignore they ones they want to change. This gets to your idea of a Netflix edit. So Daredevil is in 616, but not everything that happened in 617 happened in 616. As an example, if they want to redo Elektra in 616, they can ignore that storyline from 617. If they want to move forward as though Iron Fist never happened in 616 (definitely my least favorite Netflix character), then that means in 616 that the Defenders never met and perhaps there wasn't even an Iron Fist at all. However, there was still a 6116 Luke Cage and Jessica Jones, but their stories didn't include anything from the point of Iron Fist entering the scene. It gives Marvel max flexibility but also lets fans still enjoy the shows as originally released.
Anyway, will be very interesting to see what Marvel does with the Defenders as the MCU moves along and more and more elements from the Netflix shows are re-introduced into the MCU. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
@@AbitofEverything4U Yeah Iron Fist was pretty lame... They could leave him out, replace him with Shang Chi. Or bring Iron Fist back later as a support character for him.
As far as I remember there's nothing in Luke Cage, Jessica Jones or The Punisher that would create plotholes in the main MCU, so they could be brought over 1 to 1.
Daredevil tho. I think season 3 should be canned. Because there Kingpin learns his identity, and we can't go with that. Also it's his "resurrection" after the Defenders, which should also be canned. And probably remade into a new series, and that could be a way to reintroduce these characters into the MCU.
To fit into the 5 year gap, there are few things that could be retconned too, like when they mention the Incident, that could refer to the Blip and not the plot of Avengers. Or how Hammer tech weapons appeared in Luke Cage, maybe after the Snap many not so violent prisoners, including Justin Hammer, got released. (would be cool, if they brought him back, he was funny)
@@vodkavecz Yes, love all those ideas. I agree that DD S3 unfortunately needs to go. Loved Bullseye, but I think they could redo him even better. And I agree that Jessica Jones and Luke Cage could come over basically intact. I really do suspect that Marvel will do something along the line of what we are suggesting. Will be interesting to see how DD: Born Again goes. I think we will get alot of answers in that series.
I prefer to think of them as not cannon to the main mcu for reasons that may be both confusing and clear, so ill just sum it up by saying most / all THE NON D+ shows feel too different (I can elaborate if you want but I dont wanna bore you with another essay)
with agents of shield, the one i feel best to talk about, excluding like 10 episodes, after finishing S2, even though I still wasn't the most delighted with it being cannon, I wasn't crazy against it and there were some cool connections (must've been cool watching this alongside winter solider + age of ultron). season 3 to me felt very disjointed from the mcu, and season 4 just increases what I said about the previous season x100
but to address the thanos snap thing, man does this bug me. for 1, i was so excited to have a kinda crossover with my favourite movie ever with a tv show i only watched cuz of lockdown loneliness, and while miles better than that civil "tie in" i hate, it's basically just vague mentions of thanos, and an alien attack on the city where iron man + DS + spider man went to space, but the show never indicates / infers how "iron man is missing" or "wizard" or anything, so already the exact timeline is confusing i have to type up just to remember on marvel wiki (how marvel wiki knows the destruction of earth took place right before thor + rockets conversation in the pod -> IDK), like we have to assume the avengers don't know about the confederacy ship above earth, just cuz of this ?????? what is vison / cap / ant man / iron man during these events, i just think a bit more context would make the story feel more interconnected, don't wanna sound ungrateful but in the S5 finale, shield bringing up the unavailability of the avengers wouldn't have been hard, like did talbot being shot into space take place before the battle of wakanda, if so how long before ? how long before / after / during the battle of wakanda did the final shot of the shield team leaving take place in (marvel wiki says literally seconds before the snap ????????). whatever, i like the story reason of thanos being a fearful threat for even a headstrong general like talbot, and obviously the exact characters can't appear, just some clarity would've made it feel more impactful, like with the hydra reveal I knew when sitwell was reassigned to the Lemerian Star, i knew it was very shortly before CAWS, and when Coulsons team won at the end of the episode, it was after CAWS + we got to see maria hill and nick fury afterwards -> so much more togetherness in the storytelling. BUT, nobody brings this up, if you look at SOLEY agents of shield, in the context of that show, the threat of thanos' invasion is never dealt with / brought up again, they save earth, have their half cheesy emotional moments and do their own thing and S6 + S7 never bring it up, within just this show we're just left wondering "OK .... what about this thanos guy ? did he lose, the show never brings him or the avengers up ? for all i know he's still out there and the shield team make no effort to look into that or bring it up as a worry ?". a 10 second line of it wouldn't have been hard
AND YES, THE SNAP IS NEVER BROUGHT UP. in most scenarios, in a hypothetical situation i'd be the guy who defends "inconsistencies" as just coz something isn't referenced in another story, doesn't mean they don't coexist or it can't be rationalised. THAT SAID, it's bad enough this show didn't bring up thanos again, but assuming "it's canon" and 50% of ALL life was eradicated. it didn't just affect people on earth, the avengers and black people trying to fix a boat, IT AFFECTED THE WHOLE UNIVERSE, TRILLIONS WERE KILLED, SO STATISTICALLY, IT'S BEYOND IMPROBABLY ALL 9 SHIELD CHARACTERS FROM BEFORE THE SNAP WERE PART OF THE SAME 50%, i did that math, the odds of just those 9 people being fine is 1 / 512 if you exclude sarge, his crew and like 3 new shield agents in S6, but that's ignoring the fact of civilisations on earth and other planets seeming to be thriving / fine. Imagine if Clone Wars Season 7 still established it was set around episode 3, but just didn't bring up order 66 ?????
dont wanna sound like im ranting, i kinda like season 6 tbh and this is just my own interpretation on why i don't consider agents of shield canon to our actual MCU
Wow! Excellent points. Yeah, you have nailed so many reasons that I don't think AoS is canon. I think it works if it is canon in the multiverse and so we can still watch the shows and enjoy the stories, but I don't believe they happened in 616. You are spot on in your analysis. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
Now Daredevil, Punisher, Iron Fist, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, The Defenders are canon and they are in MCU timeline, at the moment Agent Carter is another strong candidate to add in MCU timeline, and if they will do it then it means that Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.; Inhumans, Helstrom, Cloak & Dagger, Runaways will also automatically become canon, because this shows are in one same universe
ikr? Isn't it exciting to see Marvel finally beginning to acknowledge these shows? Hoping we see more coming in soon. I do fear they may pull in Agent Carter without some of the others, however, as they could still try to make AoS a branch since Agent Carter doesn't reference Agents of Shield (for the obvious reason that it's earlier in the timeline, ofc). But at this point, anything is possible, so we can hold out hope for all of the shows to be pulled in eventually!
@@AbitofEverything4UWell, yes, lately Marvel has begun to listen to fans, they have slowly begun to canonize non-MCU films with the help of the multiverse, such as SCU (Sony Cinematic Universe) movies: Spider-Man, The Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse, Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse, Venom, Morbius; FCU (Fox Cinematic Universe) movies: X-Men, Daredevil, Elektra, Fantastic Four, Deadpool; NCU (Netflix Cinematic Universe) movies.
Now I'm waiting for Nicolas Cage's Ghost Rider, Eric Bana's Hulk and Wesley Snipes' Blade appearance in Secret Wars, I can't wait to add them to my list of the chronological viewing order of Marvel Cinematic Multiverse projects(movies/series):
1. Captain America: The First Avenger
2. Agent Carter
3. Marvel's Agent Carter 1
4. Marvel's Agent Carter 2
5. Captain Marvel
6. Iron Man
7. Iron Man 2
8. The Incredible Hulk
9. Marvel One-Shot: The Consultant
10. Marvel One-Shot: A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to Thor's Hammer
11. Thor
12. The Avengers
13. Marvel One-Shot: Item 47
14. Iron Man 3
15. Marvel One-Shot: All Hail the King
16. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 1 | 1-7
17. Thor: The Dark World
18. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 1 | 8-16
19. Captain America: The Winter Soldier
20. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 1 | 17-22
21. Guardians of the Galaxy
22. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2
23. I Am Groot 1
24. I Am Groot 2
25. Daredevil 1
26. Jessica Jones 1
27. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 2 | 1-19
28. Avengers: Age of Ultron
29. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 2 | 20-22
30. Ant-Man
31. Daredevil 2
32. Luke Cage 1
33. Iron Fist 1
34. The Defenders 1
35. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 3 | 1-19
36. Captain America: Civil War
37. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 3 | 20-22
38. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 4 | 1-8
39. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Slingshot
40. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 4 | 9-22
41. Black Widow
42. Black Panther
43. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 5 | 1-18
44. Spider-Man: Homecoming
45. The Punisher 1
46. Doctor Strange
47. Jessica Jones 2
48. Inhumans 1
49. Luke Cage 2
50. Iron Fist 2
51. Daredevil 3
52. Runaways 1
53. Cloak & Dagger 1
54. Runaways 2
55. Cloak & Dagger 2
56. Runaways 3
57. Thor: Ragnarok
58. The Punisher 2
59. Jessica Jones 3
60. Ant-Man and the Wasp
61. Avengers: Infinity War
62. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 5 | 19-22
63. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 6
64. Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. 7
65. Helstrom
66. Avengers: Endgame
67. Loki 1
(Alternative universe №68)
68. What If...? 1
69. WandaVision
70. Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings
71. The Falcon and the Winter Soldier
72. Spider-Man: Far from Home
(Alternative universes №73 - №80)
73. Spider-Man (2002 Sam Raimi)
74. Spider-Man 2 (2004 Sam Raimi)
75. Spider-Man 3 (2007 Sam Raimi)
76. The Amazing Spider-Man (2012 Marc Webb)
77. The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (2014 Marc Webb)
78. Venom
79. Morbius
80. Venom: Let There Be Carnage
81. Spider-Man: No Way Home
(Alternative universes №82 and №83)
82. Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse
83. Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse
84. Eternals
(Alternative universes №85 - №107)
85. Daredevil (2003 Mark Steven Johnson)
86. Elektra (2005 Rob Bowman)
87. Man-Thing (2005 Brett Leonard)
88. Fantastic Four (2005 Tim Story)
89. Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer (2007 Tim Story)
90. X-Men: First Class
91. X-Men Origins: Wolverine
92. X-Men
93. X2
94. X-Men: The Last Stand
95. The Wolverine
96. Legion 1
97. Legion 2
98. Legion 3
99. The Gifted 1
100. The Gifted 2
101. X-Men: Days of Future Past
102. Logan
103. X-Men: Apocalypse
104. Dark Phoenix
105. Deadpool
106. The New Mutants
107. Deadpool 2
108. Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness
109. Hawkeye
110. Moon Knight
111. Black Panther: Wakanda Forever
112. Echo
113. She-Hulk
114. Ms. Marvel
115. Thor: Love and Thunder
116. Werewolf By Night
117. Guardians of the Galaxy: Holiday Special
118. Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania
119. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3
120. Secret Invasion
121. The Marvels
122. Loki 2
123. What If...? 2
Nice! I like how you've split those timelines out like that!
I consider all of the Marvel Television shows canon to the main universe until season 5 of Agents of Shield. Its clear from that point that they all don't get blipped, and I blame it on the jump to the future and return to the present, shifting them all to an alternate timeline where the Avengers won in Wakanda. Gives us all the "good stuff" (The Defenders saga, Theta Protocol, Robbie Reyes) but cuts off The Inhumans and Helstrom
I like that break. That's about the point that I began to wonder if things had departed from the main MCU when I was first viewing them. It seemed things were very interwoven and then became less and less so over time. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
for me, I like to think about a lot of those netflix series as being an alternate universe, but that doesn't mean the exact same events couldn't have happened in the MCU timeline - just without all the inconsistencies. Two universes could have similar events happen in both of them, and any inconsistency can be smoothed over as not happening in the main universe
I honestly think that's what Feige will ultimately do. While the Pre-D+ shows were filmed and released as 616 canon originally, I know that Feige wants the freedom to use whatever aspects of the shows fit best going forward. So the perfect solution is to make the pre-D+ shows part of the multiverse and then, as you explain perfectly, Feige can pull any aspects of the shows into 616 that he desires. It's the best of both worlds (or of both universe, as the case may be) as the original shows are kept intact in another universe and the best parts can be re-incorporated into 616.
Thanks so much for watching and sharing your theories. Really appreciate it, as I love to hear what other MCU fans are thinking!
Also I think Punisher season 2 is supposed to take place around the same time as the blip but the blip is not refrenced.
Good point. Yes, I think you are correct about Punisher S2. Really hoping Marvel will definitively state if the shows are still considered canon at some point. But I am enjoying seeing Daredevil coming back and his She-Hulk appearance was amazing. Can't wait for Born Again. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Let us look at the matter from a business standpoint and discuss actual history regarding the matter. Pre-2016 Perlmutter and Feige managed MS together, after the full seperation of the TV and Movies division, Marvel TV just remained as its own independent entity, but before that came stuff Agent Carter S1, AoS S1-2, Daredevil S1, and some other Netflix shows had contributions from main MS to some extent, ultimately making these shows canon from the perspective of the public from the timefrom of Phase 2-3.
Let's do a bit of math now. AoS season 1-5 respectively had est. 8, 7, 5, 4, 3 million viewers at airing dates. Let's assume 6 and 7 both had 1. That would make est. total about 4 million viewers throughout the entirity of the show. Now, let's imagine even more viewers came as time went on and their availability increased thus the shows had many millions of more fans around the world - so let's say about 6-7 million people there who are fans of the show.
Although Netflix doesn't reveal this type of data we can assume from MediaBuzz estimates that Daredevil alone had about est. 190K viewers during the original runs but as time went on and world spread, millions of people watched the show. There are other shows but if I were to count numbers from all of those shows, I would be spending an entire day here.
My point being, there are MILLIONS of people who are fans of these shows. Marvel knows this. Tens and Millions all avid fans of these pre-disney+ shows and MCU fans around the world if we bring the number into scope, and you think that Marvel would dissatisfy them all and lose money by erasing a decade worth of development and dissappoint, not meet expectations of these fans awaiting explanation and thinking these are canon by decanonizing ALL OF IT?
No way! This isn't Star Wars, they are gonna be more careful with this.
Excellent analysis. I have long thought the issue with the disconnect between Marvel TV and Marvel Studios is that Loeb and Feige got along, but only to a point. The first few seasons of AoS as well as the start of Agent Carter (which launched due to a fantastic one shot) were tightly woven with the movies and it was fantastic to watch. I'll never forget going to see winter solder and then returning home and in a few days seeing the immediate impact in AoS. It was insane.
Over time, I think that Loeb and Feige got along less and less and the TV shows started to go off on their own and create their own world. While it was a bummer to see it not so tightly connected to the movies, it was still an amazing world. The Netflix shows had subtle nods to AoS (Creel, for example) and Runaways tied to Cloak and Dagger and Roxxon was the evil company across all of the shows. It was awesome, even if it seemed to drift farther and farther from the movies.
Then, when Feige got control of TV and Movies there was a definite shift to tie it all into one connected narrative. However, that left the question of what to do with the pre-D+ shows. As you point out in perfect detail, there were millions of fans of those shows (myself included). So Marvel created the multiverse via the Loki show and it left fans wondering if perhaps the shows were now part of the multiverse rather than 616. Feige didn't have to say it himself, the fans took it in that direction and many were okay if that was the way it ended up. It allowed Marvel to introduce the characters into 616 and draw from the best stories from the original series which were now part of the multiverse but to deviate where desired.
However, many fans feel this is a cheap trick and want the shows to still be canon to 616. And that's why Marvel has been walking the fence line all this time and refuses to says one way or another. In time, we will get our answer, because the new Daredevil show, for instance, will either connect to the Netflix shows and have zero deviations (i.e. same Bullseye, same Elektra, same Kingpin storyline, etc) or we will see small or even large deviations. However, that is still a year or more away, so fans will continue to have time to mull over what they want to have happen.
I do feel in the end that Marvel will move all pre-D+ shows to the multiverse, but there will be no official confirmation of this for as long as Marvel can avoid it. As you say, Marvel doesn't want to anger anyone. Plus, if we see our favorite pre-D+ characters appear in Secret Wars as variant of 616 but as the original characters from the shows, then we may be okay in the end. I guess we'll have to see. But that's my take on what will happen.
Again, fantastic analysis of the dilemma Marvel is in. Really appreciate you watching the video and sharing your thoughts. I love the dialogue and enjoy learning what others feel about the situation.
@@AbitofEverything4U there will definitely be SOME deviations, knowing Disney's history with media like this and obviously some of their writers' negligence to make sure everything is on point. But honestly knowing how many times that has happened I and number of people would probably just kind of gasp and go on. Speaking of Elektra - I hear there will be a recast. Multiversal shenanigans? I don't know.
@@InitialAA Right! I heard that about Elektra as well. She could be the point where we finally get a clear indication of the direction Marvel is taking (i.e. is it a reboot of the original DD S1-3 or do they try to explain the new casting somehow). I did really like the original Elektra actress, however, so it will be interesting to see how anyone else is received in that role.
I didn't know that the Darkhold appeared in Runaways...ot I forgot.
Yeah, it was a pretty cool Darkhold storyline with Morgan Le Fey. Runaways wasn't one of my favorite shows, but it was enjoyable overall. Just wish they hadn't had that time travel ending. But in general, I liked it. Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
To me, the ONLY thing missing from the Defenders Saga that prevents it from being 100% canon is the fact that they haven't gone back and CGI in the damn Avengers Tower in the shots where the MetLife Building shows up. They already show the Stark Tower in a newspaper in several episodes so we know it exists. That makes them 99% canon because they occur in a universe where Loki and the chitauri invaded NYC. I mean, come on Disney, y'all use CGI to remove Jeans Guy from The Mandalorian but not add in the Avengers Tower? Even a fan did it on RUclips already. It's not like these shows ever got a physical release so it's not too late.
That's funny! Yes, I wish they could get the Avengers Tower right. And if they mess it up, then fix that darn thing in post! Totally agree. Of course, now they are messing up the statue of liberty, which as returned to it's original pre-oxidized bronze state in No Way Home, but has reappeared afterwards in its lime green color. Sigh.
Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@AbitofEverything4U Lmaooo that's true I had forgotten about the Statue of Liberty thing! It was in Ms. Marvel, right? I assumed it took place before No Way Home since the statue is still green but maybe it was indeed a mistake. Smh why do they do this?? 😭
@@AlejoConejo-vb8ln Yep, it is indeed in Ms. Marvel, which takes place September of 2025, so it is well after No Way Home. Sigh. Why do they keep doing it indeed. Oh well, gives us something to chuckle about when it happens!
@@AbitofEverything4U I guess copper rusts faster in that universe lmfao
@@AlejoConejo-vb8ln Exactly...it rusts like really, really, really fast!
Oh, and as for Avengers Tower causing issues, how about the way that the first episode of Hawkeye with the 2012 Avengers flashback had the wrong letters still on the building during the battle. They covered it in a few articles back then: movieweb.com/hawkeye-avengers-flashback-mistake/. But to your point about fixing mistakes, they then fixed it after the fact on Disney+. So they need to get on the Statue of Liberty and the other Avengers Tower issues ASAP!
Beginning in 2021, Cox and D'Onofrio reprised their roles as Murdock and Wilson Fisk / Kingpin in MCU projects produced by Marvel Studios, including a new series, Daredevil: Born Again, which is in development for Disney+.
Yes, it's so exciting to see the Netflix characters slowly making their way into the mix with the other MCU characters. I'm still not sure if the pre-D+ shows will be kept as canon, but I suspect we will learn more as we continue to see Daredevil appearing in She-Hulk, Echo, and finally Born Again. Can't wait!
@@AbitofEverything4UHawkeye, Spider-Man No Way Home, and Spider-Man Freshman Year
@@terrillgoodwinejr537 And many more to come! So stoked!
Some of the One Shots were partly produced by Marvel TV. No way how they fucked up with Agent Carter.
Yeah, I agree. I mean the Agent Carter one-shot was basically a pilot for the show, so both the one shot and the show should be considered canon. That said, I was always so surprised they didn't integrate the one-shot into the show. It's like they ignored it completely when the show came out, which was an odd choice.
So it seems like the Agent Carter show (which I really liked, btw) is in a limbo right now as Marvel hasn't said if it is still canon or not. Heck, even Endgame is confusing as Steve goes back to be with Peggy but we aren't sure what point in her timeline that was. Was it after Agent Carter S2? After the One-Shot? Ugh. Then they even throw in the Jarvis actor in Endgame just to mess with us.
At some point Marvel just needs to say once and for all what is canon and what isn't. But I suspect they will walk the fence line for as long as they can as it avoids making anyone upset. Just my take, though. Anyway, thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
In AoS the Darkhold was shown to be able to change its cover overtime so I don’t think that rules it out.
Also in a Disney+ show it was stated that during the blip people began to move on in their life so I don’t think that AoS is ruled out here either as well, as the time travel it does follow the endgames version of time travel, Fitz even mentioned the Quantum Realm.
Those are some good points. Yes, I agree that the Darkhold can change form, so that may well solve that dilemma. I am more surprised that AoS S6 didn't mention the blip since it would have devastated the world, as we've seen from other shows that deal with it, but I guess it could work. And I do like the time travel using the quantum realm in S7. I am more concerned with the time travel in S4 and S5, as it seemed to be problematic...unless it was creating branches. If that happened, then it may well have worked okay. I kinda view AoS as no longer being in the main timeline once they jumped to the future, but that's must my thought on it. Anyway, I really appreciate you watching the video and sharing your theories!
@@AbitofEverything4U Thanks! I just found your channel and really enjoying your videos. My mentality is that there are different methods of Time Travel, a more scientific way through Pym particles, the Quantum Realm, and TVA; and more magical way through the monoliths and the Time Stone. They could have different rules. You can disagree, that’s just what I think.
Also I could be wrong but I kind of remember in Loki that the TVA only pruned branches that lead to a new Kang variant, and when they time traveled in S4/S5 the earth was destroyed so no Kang.
And not mentioning the blip does make sense but if S5 happened 2 years after Infinity War, people are just trying to move on as we learned in the Disney+ Shows.
And one last thing the Time Travel in Runaways is very messy and theory is that the TVA pruned that timeline after it happened.
AoS and Runaways we’re supposed to have a crossover at the end of Runaways S1 where the AoS cast would show up where the final battle takes place the next day, but unfortunately it was cancelled because of scheduling.
Anyway thanks for listening to my ramblings. I hope you have a great day!
@@augustmyers339 Great comments. Yes, I definitely agree that the quantum realm does time travel differently than magic would, such as the monoliths, the time stone, or kamala's bangle. So that makes perfect sense.
I also agree that whatever branches were created in AoS S4/5 would not have created Kang so would not have been pruned. I still think it's weird they don't mention the blip and I know the reason is because the writers didn't know about it either. Had marvel told them, they would have jumped 5 years instead and got past it. But I also think it's a small enough issue i just ignore it.
And yes, I would love it if the TVA wiped out the branch created by Runaways last episode. I hated that time travel mess!
Thanks so much for the great conversation and for watching the video. I love the dialogue!
Great video some of these shows are definitely canon hey unrelated question who your pick for the new averagers for the mcu
Thanks for watching. Will be interesting to see if Marvel confirms if any shows are canon. They really haven't said any of them are or are not. So they are playing it coy for now.
As for the new Avengers line-up...that's actually a tough question because they are building a few new teams:
The Young Avengers: Kate Bishop, America Chavez, Patriot, Wiccan, Speed, Cassie Lang (Stature), Iron Heart/RiRi Williams, maybe Young Loki, maybe Ms. Marvel
The Dark Avengers or Thunderbolts: Yelena Belova, U.S. Agent, Baron Zemo, Ghost, Task Master, maybe Abomination
So its a matter of who is left. Still, some very good choices for the new Avengers lineup: Captain America/Sam Wilson and perhaps Falcon if he debuts in CA4, She-Hulk, Shang Chi, War Machine, maybe Vision, maybe Wonder Man, maybe Captain Marvel, and perhaps Thor if he returns to earth to help in a big battle)
The next Avengers movie is likely going to be Secret Wars, so we may also see several variants of heroes as well. Could be awesome!
@@AbitofEverything4U yeah definitely can’t wait for Secret wars also yea I can’t tell you my pick for later down the line because I have no idea but if marvel was going to have averagers movie in phase 4 this would been my pick. Captain America, Spider-Man, Shang chi, Kate bishops and maybe she hulk and black panther because i think marvel still got some more movies until they move on to phase 5 because I think she hulk coming in August 17 and black panther 2 is coming November 11
Also I know Kate is going to be in the young averagers but I have no one else to pick because Hawkeye done with the superhero Business and want to stay with his family and I gotta watch she hulk to know if hulk still going to be on the averagers but after all he been throw I think not
Good picks. I totally spaced Spider-man. Would be cool to see him as an Avenger, considering Tony Stark declared him an Avenger in Infinity War. Lots of exciting things coming down the road for the MCU!
And good point about Kate Bishop. It would be perfect for her to take over from Hawkeye, either in the Avengers or Young Avengers!
As an AOS fan I really hope it isn't canon any more. It was great while it lasted and it not being canon means it dodges the problems I have with the MCU right now.
AOS would be dragged down by the MCU in my opinion.
Yeah, I think that's a really good take on the situation. If AoS is considered a multiversal story then it can happen exactly as laid out in the series. But if it has to try to fit into the MCU, I think it will be very messy. Great comments!
In my headcanon I'm going to include the Agent Carter show and discount the One-Shot, as the One-Shot was basically a condensed version of the events in the show and not as interesting imo. There's nothing to contradict Agent Carter Season 1 and 2 happening as presented following TFA if we ignore the One-Shot and it's supported by Jarvis in Endgame. But for timeline purposes I understand not including these shows in 616. I feel like we can just pick and choose which things to include happening in our personal headcanons at this point unless explicitly contradicted by a main MCU film or Disney+ show
Yes, I think that's a very good position to take. I think all of the pre-Disney+ shows were filmed and produced to be canon and thus are canon until something in the MCU contradicts them. And I also agree that I really liked Agent Carter and was so bummed they didn't do a S3.
I always considered them canon because that's how they were originally announced. Why would that change? Glad Disney finally reconfirmed they are canon
Well said...yes, they were always meant to be canon, so it's nice we've come full circle and they are now being officially treated as officially canon!
@@AbitofEverything4U but like you said, AoS broke canon much worse than Defenders ever did. I’ll be surprised if they add it to the sacred timeline order on D+ any time soon. I would love that though. We need Quake back!
Right...that's my take as well. Will be hard to call AoS 100% canon, but I do hope they can find a way to give us Quake, even if she's pulled in from the multiverse.
Maybe it’s a different darkhold, because In MoM it says that Wanda’s darkhold is a copy of the original so maybe there’s multiple copies?
And for Ghost rider, there can be multiple ghost riders as seen in the comics so if we get a different one, then that doesn’t rule out aos.
Mockingbird. Who knows maybe mockingbird is a title all of these inconsistencies haven’t been fully ruled out by previous logic so who knows maybe they’re canon maybe they’re not
Yes, I think all of those are good explanations. Ghost Rider might be the trickiest, but I think they could all work. In my mind, all the shows are canon until we are told they aren't or until there is a contradiction we can't explain. So it will be interesting to see what Marvel does going forward. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Summary:
*Helstrom* - No. The showrunner explicitly said it wasn't, even though that was the original intention. It is, however, fully compatible with the continuity, if they decide to retcon it in.
*MODOK and Hit-Monkey* - No. They were _never_ intended to be, & they have several contradictions with the rest of the MCU.
*Legion and The Gifted* - No. They're part of the Fox X-Men franchise, full stop (albeit probably a different timeline).
*All the rest* - _YES._ They were officially said to be when they started, & there has been no official statement or irreconcilable contradiction to undo that.
Yep, that is a very understandable position. I think many would agree. The shows that were officially said to be canon at one point should be considered canon until proven otherwise. Will be interesting to see how they handle Daredevil's future appearances (She-Hulk, Echo, and DD: Born Again) to see how they connect things together. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
*Re: Time Travel* - That's not irreconcilable. We've seen even in the unquestionably canon Marvel Studios content that it's possible for different _methods_ of time travel to have different rules; Doctor Strange and Ms. Marvel both show time travel with different rules than in Endgame.
The Runaways finale, the only episode with time travel, contradicts _the rest of Runaways itself_ too, which speaks more to lazy writing than to non-canonicity. Fortunately, the episode also effectively _erases_ itself.
And the time travel in season 7 of AoS _was_ shown to follow Endgame rules anyway.
*Re: Darkhold* - That's not even a contradiction, much less an irreconcilable one. Its first appearance in AoS establishes that the book can change appearance both inside & outside, showing an alternate cover design from the get-go. Ghost Rider then hides it in another dimension in an episode set in 2017. Morgan le Fay then finds it in that other dimension & brings it back with her to Earth in an episode set in early 2018. The Runaways separate Morgan from the book 6 months later by sealing her away, leaving the Darkhold on Earth again. That leaves 5 years for Agatha Harkness to find & study the book before Wanda takes it from her in 2023.
It even works the same way in AoS/Runaways as in WandaVision/MoM: It's a semi-sapient book that shows the reader how to get what they want, but in a way that has horrible consequences, & it gradually corrupts the reader's mind. Wanda even spoke the same way as the readers in AoS.
(Besides all that, MoM establishes that multiple copies of the Darkhold can exist.)
*Re: Inhumans as a concept* - There's still no contradiction here. In fact, comments in Ant-Man & in Civil War support the idea of a bunch of powered people starting to appear after the end of AoS season 2.
*Re: the show titled Inhumans* - Bad & unreferenced does not prove non-canonicity. The good news there is, _because_ nothing else references those events, they _could_ remove it without affecting anything else. They just haven't officially done so _yet._
*Re: Agent Carter* - Both placements for the one-shot, before the series or after the series, can be justified. I personally think it makes more sense after the series for the character arcs (& we know from Homecoming that on-screen title cards are fallible); it's easy to picture Thompson brushing Peggy's accomplishments under the rug, & then Flynn instituting stricter protocols after Thompson was gunned down.
*Re: Disney+ playlists* - It has become increasingly obvious to me that Marvel does not directly control the D+ interface; in fact, the D+ interface is not even controlled centrally _at all._ The arrangements of various playlists differ between regions, even when content is the same, & mistakes are frequently made in constructing the playlists. (Most recently, it took them a MONTH to put Incredible Hulk on the MCU playlists in the countries that got that movie on the service.) They also have no practical means at this point to separate multi-season shows on the chronological timeline playlist; as we've just seen, they had to categorize I Am Groot as discrete individual shorts instead of as a series to fit them around GotG 2, & that results in _4 I Am Groot slots in a row_ on the playlist.
*Re: Age of Ultron* - In an interview at the time, Kevin Feige directly mentioned the tie-in to AoS as a way fans could answer the question of how Fury got a helicarrier.
*Re: SWORD* - The AoS showrunners explicitly said they were told _not_ to use the "SWORD" name to avoid a future contradiction. They were able to be told this because there _was_ communication between the movies & TV shows.
*Re: The Blip* - This is not a contradiction or inconsistency. Not talking about something does not mean the thing didn't happen. You not _liking_ that they didn't talk about something does not mean that it didn't happen.
Season 6 didn't start filming until after Infinity War came out. The issue wasn't Infinity War. The issue was *ENDGAME* & more specifically *the five year time skip* which was the big twist of the movie. ABC wouldn't commit to a premiere date for season 6 until after it was finished, so the showrunners didn't know if it would air before or after Endgame opened, so they couldn't risk spoiling that twist. So they wrote around it.
[There's another possibility, too, though: The time travel in season 5 could've caused a branch timeline, leaving seasons 1-4 still in the MCU-616 continuity.]
*Re: Mockingbird* - As of 2024 when the Hawkeye series is set, Laura Barton has been retired from SHIELD for _at least_ 22 years. It's not absurd to think her codename and/or agent number would've been reused....unless you think she was the 13th agent _ever_ at an organization that started in the 1940s. Also, Laura is never referred to as "Mockingbird", and Bobbi Morse on AoS is never referred to as either "Agent 13" _or_ as "Mockingbird".
*Re: Defenders Saga* - They also alluded to the Sokovia Accords in seasons 2-3 of Jessica Jones. And they could just continue with where Iron Fist season 2 left off, where Colleen is the Iron Fist.
@@CaptHayfever Wow! Fantastic analysis. Believe me, I'd love all the shows to be 616 canon because I watched them all (other than Hitmonkey) when they first aired and assumed they were all 616 MCU. So your analysis is excellent. I guess we have to wait and see what Feige has up his sleeve. It's a very significant decision that he has to make soon. Thanks again for laying all of this out so well!
@@AbitofEverything4U Hit-Monkey was shockingly one of the better shows. Definitely worth watching if you're not squeamish about cartoon gore.
@@Volvagia0slayer Yeah, Hit-Monkey is one of the few I haven't seen, due to not having Hulu. But I do want to catch it at some point.
In my head only the pre defenders Netflix stuff is cannon this invades the iron fist issue and some other stuff also I noticed someone mention the inhumans reference in a TV text scroll in season 2 idk
That's a really cool approach. That would give us some of the best of Daredevil and Jessica Jones and remove some of the later baggage of the Defenders. I am hoping we get some firm answers of what it still canon when Daredevil starts appearing in She-Hulk, Echo and his Born Again series. I know Marvel would probably like to dodge the issue altogether, but they really need to take a position one way or another on it. Anyway, thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
Yes they are! They were made with the clear intent that they were! They were promoted as such! I hate MCU gatekeepers that say they're not canon!
Yeah, the whole canon situation really bums me out. I think they all should be considered canon. However, the timeline book implied they are canon to the multiverse, but not the sacred timeline. So, that means they can return in Secret Wars, but Feige seems to have made them non-canon to the main universe. That said, I think each person should treat them however they would like. As you said, they were written, directed, filmed and promoted as canon. So that seems like a pretty strong reason to forever hold them as canon to the sacred timeline. Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
Actually runaways time travel ending doesn’t mess up endgame. The sorerous supreme said that there are many different out comes to time travel and she mentioned that form as one of them.
Interesting. I must have missed The Ancient One saying that about different outcomes to time travel. In Endgame, she seemed to explain that there were divergent timelines created if you travel back in time. One thing is certain...time travel is confusing. Will be wild to see how it gets handled now that Kang has arrived!
@@AbitofEverything4U yah
I'm just gonna write a reminder that Luke Cage is directly referenced in Cloak and Dagger, with a picture of him and everything
Yes, there is no doubt that if Cloak and Dagger are considered 616 canon, that for sure brings in the Netflix shows. On the other hand, as it as a one directional connection, bringing in the Netflix shows (including Cage) doesn't necessarily bring in Cloak and Dagger. But one way or another, I do hope we get some firm answers soon on which direction Feige is planning to take. Daredevil may give us some strong clues, with his appearances in She-Hulk, Echo and his new series all coming soon. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
Well I think the best course of action would be to make Iron fist a side character in shang chi. Eventually he could have a street lvl hero show too cause sheng chi seems more avengers lvl hero for now🤷♂️
That could work. Iron Fist is the big question mark and it will definitely be interesting to see what Marvel does with him. Thanks for watching add adding your theory to the mix!
The Darkholds may looked different but they worked the same dark, dangerous, and unpredictable. Even though they may have some chapters that may be canon to the movies such as Doctor Strange and the Multiverse of Madness, the shows have skipped over them and went on ahead to the next chapters that are more darker and much more worse. Like Morgan Le Fay. Who wants to bet Morgan could be the next chapter following the Scarlett Witch and Agatha or sharing the same chapter on witches? With Agents of Shield season 6 may not be in the same league of Avengers Infinity War because of the whole deep space theme they've got going on or they're working behind the shadows which is kind of what they're doing to may be hint, hint planting the seeds for Secret Invasion or something far more. So, just like skipping chapters in a book or anything like that, maybe they could be planning something in secret. Or, OR they just like paying homage to one of Alfred Hitchcock movies The Birds with a twist introduced in season 3 with the planet where Jemma Simmons got pulled into by the Death monolith. Season 6 is not that much of a banger, but it's an okay season. The snap may have done something to Mack's attitude towards Deke or vice-versa when he stepped off the quinjet. Try comparing Mack's depression and all that to Thor in New Asgaard and see any changes that did happened. So the shows are actually on the borderline of both part of the main timeline and the Disney MCUs. Keep watching them and other shows and you'll find something that hasn't been mentioned. And speaking of Inhumans there was a Kree mention when Coulson finds one of them in the chamber that reminds him of his early days when Carol Danvers crash-landed in the Blockbuster store at the time he found Daisy bleeding to death in the basement of the house during season 2. That was the time when he tried to stop Simmons from injecting the medication into Daisy which brought to live Quake. When Quake Daisy quaked the helicarrier into the ocean, she brought the series of Inhumans to the for front who wants to bet that really did happened? Again, keep watching and you'll find something new.
Great comments. I loved watching all of the pre-D+ shows as they were so well tied together. It was really impressive how many easter eggs there were across each of the different shows, whether it be AoS, Agent Carter, Netflix Defenders, Runaways or Cloak and Dagger. It will be very interesting to see how the MCU advances some of the plotlines that originated in these shows. Thanks so much for watching the video and sharing all of your thoughts. I love hearing from fellow MCU fans on all of their thoughts!
Just gonna point out that Loki didn’t create the multiverse. It’s existed forever in the mcu, that’s why it’s introduced in Doctor Strange
Good point. What I should have said was Loki (or rather Sylvie) created the true multiverse, where all timelines can exist. The TVA was pruning them pretty aggressively until He Who Remains was killed. But you make a good point. Thanks for that clarification. And thanks for watching!
I say this mostly as someone who watched all the Netflix shows as they released and thus have a personal connection to them. At least those are canon to me. I never watched AoS as it aired and I’m currently watching now on D+(really enjoying), all the other shows I haven’t seen and I’m personally indifferent too. Maybe their canon in the multiverse but that honestly feels like a cop out and a little lazy. So I don’t know where I stand.
Edit: regarding your stance on iron fist. If anson mount can return I truly so can anyone else. Finn Jones was just giving an awful script in his own show. His appearance in Luke Cage shows he’s not the problem. As for the similarities to Shang-chi if can have multiple super soliders then I can’t see why two martial arts master would be a problem.
Great comments. I also watched all the Netflix shows and am taking the stance that they are all canon until proven otherwise. I would argue they have no conflicts with the 616 MCU at this point. Plus, there have been many confirmations of the shows being 616 canon, such as Kingpin and Matt Murdock appearing, Kingpin's S3 apartment, Kingpin's black suit, Kingpin's cuff links, etc. However, if I were a betting man, I suspect we will start to see divergences coming over time. But we just have to wait and see. For now, they are 616 canon until proven otherwise.
AoS, which I also love, unfortunately has countless issues, such as the Darkhold, not referencing the snap, the different time travel rules, the alternate take on SWORD, etc. Such a bummer, as it's a great show and I wish they had coordinated it better with the main MCU.
Finn Jones is an incredible actor. He played a character in Dickinson on AppleTV+ who I don't think I've ever despised a fictional character more. But in a good way. He gave a really chilling and sly performance that made you feel super uncomfortable. So I think he would be great in the MCU with a good script.
@@prof.evilpictures8696 Yeah, I heard he was good in Game of Thrones as well. I think the script was part of the issue but I also heard that Finn didn't want to practice the fight scenes, which really hurt things. Charlie Cox, on the other hand, showed how practicing those scenes makes it so much more realistic and incredible. But yeah, perhaps Finn just needed a better script and it might have worked out.
I hope we see quake may jemma and fitz in the mcu canyon one day
Agreed. Loved Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. and I watched it from beginning to end. Here's hoping Marvel finds a way to bring them back!
Good video
I believe, at least to me, AofS stopped being canon since S3 because in that season the Inhumans appeared around the world and the general public knew about them but the people in 616 never mention them, it's like they only exist in AofS (if we don't count Inhumans show) so to me that says AofS happens in another universe.
What If is another example o how they ignore the show, cause ep 3 happens before S1 of AofS, all the Avengers were killed and there's no mention of Proyect TAHITI to revive fallen Avengers, and in AofS Coulson was considered an Avenger by Fury, in that episode they say Fury was the last one in the Avengers list.
About Fisk from DD, for the moment they appear to want to canonize DD, my problem is that S3 ended with Fisk being sent to jail, and in Hawkeye it doesn’t look like he was there to begin with. Also Kate didn't know who he was and he is probably on of the most known criminals in New York.
I hope they try to expand on the conection.
Excellent points! Now that Ms. Marvel has officially moved away from her being an Inhuman as of Ep. 6, I think Marvel has eliminated Inhumans from 616, even if we may see Inhumans in other universes, such as Black Bolt in 838.
And while I think many elements of DD will be assumed to be canon to 616, I was also concerned about how S3 ended and how they would bridge that into the re-appearance of Kingpin. I guess he could have served out his jail time and Kate might not have known of him as she would have been alot younger back then and perhaps not interested in politics, etc. But it is still hard to bridge the S3 ending with the current MCU.
Thanks for watching and sharing your feedback and your great points.
@@AbitofEverything4U
I also believe with Ms Marvel they also eliminated Inhumans from 616.
To be honest since it was announced I thought that it will give the answer of what is the state of Inhumans and te shows who involved them, but being honest with Dr strange MofM I thought they were going to say they were a new thing nobody heard of in 616 cause the terrigen mist didn't activate the powers of the Earth Inhumans yet, but they did everything they could in this show to ignore the Inhuman origin of the main character, so we have te answer.
Hope they still adapt sone inhumans to 616 even if it's as mutants.
I agree, I hope we get to see Inhumans somehow. There are a lot of good characters and it would be a shame if we lose the chance to have them in 616.
@@AbitofEverything4U They could just be saving the inhumans for further down the line, think about it, we have the Fantastic Four, Mutants, Thunderbolts, New Avengers, and the Young Avengers coming, and it even seems like the midnight sons and defenders are slowly being setup, so I think there’s just a lot of teams coming and they won’t fit this early on. Also they could be waiting for the damage to heal from the Inhumans show, never say never with Marvel
@Iamgroot, that's a good point. I do suspect we may see Inhumans one day. It would be a shame to never see them in the 616. Feige is a genius, so never say never indeed!
The darkhold issue is not an issue at all. The darkhold in multiverse of madness is a copy said by Wong! There can be many copies of the darkhold taking different forms/covers.
Yes, it does indeed seem like that might work. I wonder if the fact that it appeared to operate differently in Runaways and AoS than it did in MoM is a bigger concern, but I definitely agree MoM established multiple can exist. Great point!
@@AbitofEverything4U as much as I loved AoS, I gotta say that they have moved from the MCU main timeline to a different timeline at s5. When they returned from the future they have went to a timeline where thanos lost early and the snap didn't happen. Now that doesn't mean that they are gone, it just mean that there is still Coulson and crew in the main timeline that didn't go to the future and we just didn't know their story past S4 onwards which, if marvel studios wanted to, they can continue the story from there, but they have lot of things to explain which I think they are lazy to though. This is if my theory is right.
Right, I feel the same. The first several seasons kept very close to the MCU overall and then the show may have created a branch timeline due to the jump to the future. Heck, the last season even mentioned the quantum realm and the fact that they needed to get back to their timeline or something to that extent. So I think that's a good theory of yours.
@@AbitofEverything4U right, so marvel studios have 2 options to go for AoS I think, 1 is to go from S4 onwards of a timeline where Coulson team did not go to the future, 2 is to let the main MCU be the one timeline that the coulson team left which means Coulson and crew is gone completely without trace there, and they need to return to it via the quantum realm again.
@@wynsfield Yes, that definitely lays out two good possible directions. I am anxious to see if we get any firm direction from Marvel regarding AoS as we move into Phase 5.
They’re all canon. All of them except: M.O.D.O.K., Hit-Monkey, The Gifted, and Legion.
I certainly assumed they were all canon when I first watched them and I think that they should be considered canon until there is a conflict with the 616 storyline. But that's why I struggle with AoS past season 3, for instance, because of the Darkhold, the time travel rules being different, ignoring the Blip, SWORD being different, etc. I think it gets hard to explain how later seasons of AoS are 616 canon, IMO.
But either way, I really appreciate you watching the video and commenting. I like hearing everyone's thoughts on it!
I think aos is cnnon and s7 they branched to a diff timeline then came back
There is definitely an argument that at least some of the seasons of AoS should be considered canon. Some break it after S3, some after S4, and you give a valid argument for breaking after S6.
Hopefully Feige will give us some indication of the official position on it. I see why he's holding off for now and letting fans decide on their own, but I suspect in time we will see the direction he has chosen based on how characters like Ghost Rider are handled. Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
For me, I just see whatever is on Disney+ to be canon. The Netflix shows definitely and I suspect we could perhaps see the Defenders more with Daredevil: Born Again and other titles, I’m not sure what route they’d go with Agents of Shield, but I would see it as canon at least pre S6. I doubt they’re going to go in any new direction with Agent Carter but I think it’s also canon and as much as I hate Inhumans it would also be canon, or perhaps they’ll retcon it with a new film. And then Runaways I also see as canon.
I would love to see Hit-Monkey, MODOK, Helstrom, or Cloak and Dagger in the MCU but I don’t think the shows fit very well as part of the MCU, while Legion and Gifted seem not to fit in at all either.
Great comments. You raise an interesting point about whether just having the shows on Disney+ implies they are canon. I suspect that there is a reason they aren't in the timeline and thus are in a holding pattern regarding being canon or not, but I think we will learn more very soon. In particular, Daredevil has several upcoming appearances (She-Hulk, Echo, DD: Born Again) that will likely address the Netflix shows once and for all.
Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@AbitofEverything4U I agree, keeping them out of the timeline must mean something. I was thinking maybe they just wanted to keep these other projects separate but perhaps Born Again could be a soft
reboot to the Defenders Saga, and after Marvel addresses some things in Born Again they officially canonise the Defenders?
@Gaming Potato, it is looking more and more like a soft reboot. I added a new video about it: ruclips.net/video/mlSYyjLN_wM/видео.html. Kinda bummed, but I guess I'm not surprised. Sigh.
Yes they are. Agent Carter introduced the Black Widows, A.O.S. - The darkhold etc
There is no doubt in my mind that all the TV shows were canon when they were first produced. And many of the storylines in the movies were fleshed out in the TV shows, such as Black Widows, Darkhold, etc. However, it is really strange that the shows are now streaming on Disney+ but yet are not included in the official timeline. I am hopeful that the appearance of Daredevil and Kingpin will solidify whether Marvel still considers them to be canon on way or another. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I loved that episode of Agent Carter💙❤
@@rethablair6902 Yes, that was a fantastic episode. I hope they do keep that canon for sure.
@@AbitofEverything4U so I have a crazy theory but I need to ask.
I think the entire Marvel TV side of the MCU is canon but is slowly shifting to be more Multiversal Canon.
But there is one glaring issue that is staring us in the face. The Dark Dimension.
Why has that been appearing often in those previous series alot if that isn't canon?
@Mistah Jay, I think you are right that they are slowly moving towards the pre-D+ shows being multiversal stories. As for the dark dimension, supposedly there is only one across all the universes and it is outside of time. At least that's how I understand it. If so, then any pre-D+ shows that referenced it would still work, it seems. Likewise, there is only one quantum realm and so the AoS S7 reference to it during the time travel would work as well. All just theories, but that might explain things?
I always thought Agents Of Shield was canon but I feel like after they went into the simulated hydra universe, instead of being pulled back into the main 616 universe originally, maybe they were sent to a different timeline
Yeah, I watched all the episodes assuming they were 616 universe canon as well, but I agree, the hydra simulated universe made me begin to wonder. The time travel also got pretty far from the Endgame rules that eventually were established. Will be interesting to see what Feige ultimately does with AoS. Would love to see Quake, for instance, find her way into the MCU 616.
Why would they be sent to a different timeline? That HYDRA universe was in an virtual reality program. They didn't time travel until Season 5.
@@SeanWheeler100 Good point...I think the time travel in S5 was really the biggest stumbling block for me.
my thoughts.
agent carter: is still canon last time i heard, and i don't see any reason why it can't be.
agents of shield: has so many refreshes to the mcu, that i simply can't see it as not being canon.
netflix shows: aside from a few refrenses of the battle of new york, their just isn't enough in the netflix shows to connect them to the mcu.
cloak and dagger: i don't remember cloak and dagger don't have any refrenses to the mcu, so the only way i can see them being canon to the mcu is if the netflix shows are, since i'm pretty sure their is a moment where they do mention the final battle in luke cage, however since i don't see the netflix shows as being canon i don't see this as being canon.
runaways: the only thing connecting them is cloak and dagger, which as i said i don't consider canon.
inhumans: maybe. on the one hand unlike all the other shows i at least have an idea of when it would take place, i'm pretty sure their is a moment where someone mentions that the inhuman population on earth is starting to go up. which could be a reference to the inhuman situation in aos. on the other hand, asides from that though their really isn't much connecting them, not to mention that the events of the show never seem to even be mentioned or hinted at, also i can't help but wonder why their's no mention of the afterlife settlement, because unless the people of attilan somehow didn't know about afterlife, than i feel like it would be brought up at one point.
for example. i'm pretty sure their's a moment where blackbolt and maximus have a argument about what should be done about the inhumans on earth. with black bolt saying it's to dangerous to leave them on earh and that they should bring them to attilan, and maximus saying that no, attlian is getting too overpopulated all ready, it can't take all these newcomes, and they should instead settle on earth.
and i think if they knew about afterlife than both of them would of tried used it in their side of the argument.
for example. "black bolt" could of mentions that the inhumans on earth tried to settle somewhere on earth, but were eventually found.
where as maximus could of countered with, "yes, but it was years before they were ever found." and they were only found because of sheer circumstance
as for all the other shows, haven't seen them so can't say on how well they fit in.
Wow, what a great response. Love all of your reasoning. I agree that Agent Carter and AoS are great candidates to be canon. The Netflx shows are also in a good position to be canon as they don't contradict anything in the 616 MCU, but they also barely refer to it. I think the others are all non-canon, although Marvel could decide differently.
And that leads to the big question...when will Marvel let us know one way or another. I suspect Feige is sitting on the fence with things because he knows any decision he makes will be controversial one way or another. But I suspect we will start to see where things are falling soon. With Daredevil and Kingpin joining the MCU proper, that leads to questions about DD's Netflix series. I suspect we will get strong clues about his Neflix series when DD shows up in She-Hulk and then in Echo and finally in his own series DD: Born Again.
However Marvel decides to go with DD will then give us a strong hint to how things will go with the other shows. So I think we will soon find out what Marvel plans to do.
Thanks so much for watching and providing your analysis of each show!
To me, the Netflix shows 100% happened in 616. Nothing in them contradicts the prime timeline and vice versa. As for Iron Fist, it's best he gets a character reboot akin to what they did to Thor.
I definitely agree that all of the Netflix shows were filmed and produced as canon and have never specifically (at least that I am aware of) been stated not to be canon. So "once canon, always canon, unless Feige officially says they aren't canon". And I agree, a hard reboot on Iron Fist is the way to go. Hopefully we will learn more as Daredevil appears in She-Hulk, Echo, and finally in his own series. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@AbitofEverything4U Thank you for taking the time to reply to me 🤝
@@xMick3yC Absolutely. I always appreciate the dialogue with folks. I learn alot that way!
AoS and DD are definitely canon. They MUST be.
AoS S1-3 could all be 616 canon for sure. After that point the stories are now being contradicted by 616 stories, such as the Darkhold, time travel rules, ignoring the snap, and likely Ghost Rider being redone. I love AoS and watched every episode with the assumption it was 616 canon, but it's hard to make the later seasons fit at this point.
DD is all canon in my mind until something contradicts it and so far nothing has and in fact everything has tied to S1-3 very well. I am curious to see if the title of the new DD series has implications as it is named "Born Again". I did a video on that and DD S3 was basically patterned after the Born Again storyline in the comics. So we may start to see some divergences soon. I also think Iron Fist will be written out, but that's just a hunch. So for now, DD is all 616 canon as far as I can tell.
Thanks for watching the video and commenting. I really like hearing what other people are thinking about the pre-Disney+ shows.
S1-6 cannon then they brached in s7 to a diff timeline then cam back at the end of the of aos to the main one
@@13QDJ That would be cool for sure. The more seasons of AoS that are canon the better. I think when Ghost Rider is formally introduced, or re-introduced, into the MCU, it will be a big clue as to how Feige is viewing AoS.
I believe you're a bit too harsh on some of the shows. Multiverse of Madness explained why the Darkhold could look different (as did Agents of SHIELD), so the Darkhold should not disqualify Runaways from being canon at all. The time travel being different could certainly do it, but would it de-canonize the whole show or just that one episode, which also has a bunch of other continuity issues?
Inhumans is a show that I think probably should be de-canonized (unless Marvel wants an extra explanation for where the Inhumans from Agents of SHIELD went), but since Feige said multiple times that all of the shows were canon, I feel like we pretty much have to view the shows as canon until there is enough of a contradiction that illustrates that the show simply can't be canon to 616. Right now Inhumans hasn't been contradicted enough to force it to be non-616 canon like MODOK or Hit-Monkey have, so it should be viewed as canon (that will hopefully be de-canonized in the near future).
I disagree that Agent Carter's workplace wouldn't treat her poorly after the events of the show. That was one of the running themes of the show, that Peggy could never get her proper dues within the SSR. And after her former boss was killed in Agent Carter, it would make sense that the new boss goes about treating her poorly in the One-Shot.
Again, the Darkhold isn't an issue for canonicity. The AoS/Runaways one and the WandaVision/Multiverse of Madness one are both books of dark magic that corrupt the readers. We're told in AoS that the book can change the way it looks. We're told in MoM that the Darkhold is a copy of the etchings at Mount Wundagore, which means there could be any number of copies of the Darkhold book out there in a universe. So it doesn't matter whether the AoS/Runaways Darkhold is the same book as the WV/MoM book or one book is a copy of the other or both books were independently created from Wundagore. Furthermore, the time travel in Agents of SHIELD perfectly matches the time travel rules of Endgame. And there's nothing in AoS to suggest that they've joined SWORD, especially when SWORD in the MCU hasn't been shown to be active in space currently. No contradictions exist. You unfortunately haven't shown any inconsistencies in your video. You also forget that AoS Season 6 did reference a change in the world. At the end of Season 5, SHIELD was treated as a terrorist organization by the government. In Season 6, SHIELD was no longer treated as a terrorist organization, they were allowed to surveil the country for alien and interdimensional threats without interference, they were given a lot of new funding and new recruits, and they were allowed to build a new SHIELD academy. This tells us that something MAJOR happened within that 1 year time jump that caused the government to forgive SHIELD, believe they needed SHIELD for protection, and reinstitute the organization. Hawkeye's wife did NOT go by Mockingbird in the Hawkeye show. She went by Agent 19. Bobbi Morse in AoS didn't go by Mockingbird or Agent 19. There's no contradiction.
I thought your video on the canonicity of the comic tie-ins was really well done, and had a great amount of research put into it, but this video feels as if it wasn't researched at all. Granted, this is an older video, so perhaps you've grown as a content producer since this video, and if that's the case, I hope you keep up the good work because that level of improvement is commendable!
Thanks for all the great comments. I didn't mean to be too hard on the shows and I watched them all (well, other than MODOK and Hit Monkey as I don't have Hulu) and I assumed each was canon when they were released because that's what Marvel intended. And in general, I think that once canon, always canon, unless someone specifically says they aren't canon. So I do think every show could still be considered canon for now.
On the Darkhold, I made the video just prior to Multiverse of Madness coming out, so I wasn't aware of the movie explanation for there being multiple copies of it. I do agree that this would allow for the Darkhold to appear in both Runaways and AoS.
For Agent Carter, I do understand people were sexist back in the 40's, but Agent Carter had made a much bigger name for herself in seasons 1 and 2 and it's just hard to imagine her being treated like now of that ever happened if the one-shot happens after those seasons. They also kept referring to Steve Rogers as her long lost boyfriend in the one-shot, which made sense if it was the next thing to occur after Captain America. But by the end of Agent Carter S 1 and 2, she was pretty must over Steve and was perhaps going to be with Sousa. So for them to put her right back where she was as though S 1 and 2 never occurred seems out of place to me. But that may just be me.
Regarding AoS, my biggest issue was that Season 6 didn't really acknowledge the Blip. I understand why it happened, because the writers were not told about what was going to happen in Infinity War so they moved the show forward a year assuming that would get them past whatever resolution came from Endgame. Of course, who would have guessed it was a 5 year period between the movies. So while it is possible that none of the AoS were blipped, it is hard to believe.
As for the time travel in AoS, I'm not sure that follows the Infinity War rules. They traveled to the future (something that hasn't been done yet in the movies, although Dr. Strange peered into the future in Infinity War) and then travel back to their time to alter their future. Then in the final season, they went into the past and changed it by grabbing Sousa (as well as other changes). Granted, they covered their tracks so it looked like Sousa died, but that still seems like it would have caused a branch. And some of their other interactions seem like they would have caused a branch as well. Just my take, though.
Regarding the end of AoS, you are correct, they were not allowed to use the SWORD name in the show, so they never called it that, but it would be weird to have two different space-based government agencies in the MCU, so if that wasn't SWORD, it might create different issues.
As for the Inhumans, I think AoS really went full throttle with the concept, due to Marvel not having access to mutants yet. But it is hard to imagine that the storylines in AoS happened as there has been no mention of inhumans at all in the movies, but again, just my take.
I'm not sure if all of Runaways should be de-canonized due to the time travel, but it seems weird to say most of a show happened but not all of it. That said, it is possible most of the show could stay around.
I think the biggest indication of what will happen going forward is how Marvel looks to re-incorporate the TV characters into the MCU. Daredevil and Kingpin have been done very well so far, but there isn't any clear indication of whether their earlier storylines are still canon. I think we will learn more soon, however, as Daredevil will be making lots of appearances. I can't imagine them keeping Iron Fist around, but I could be wrong. Also, we will learn alot about AoS ties when Ghost Rider returns to the greater MCU.
I just wish Marvel TV and Marvel movies had been working together better. They started out with a very good partnership and the first few seasons of AoS tied in very well. But things seemed to sour between Loeb and Feige and the TV shows went in a different direction it seemed. I don't blame them, as they had little choice, but that's why I suspect most of the pre-D+ shows will be slowly decanonized. It would be a shame to see it happen, and I could be wrong, but I just fear that will be the case.
Hope that explains where I was going in the video. Really appreciate you watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@AbitofEverything4U I appreciate your reply! While it is a bit of an anomaly that none of the AoS crew were blipped (apart from maybe Coulson), it wouldn't be the only time we've seen this. It's also a statistical anomaly that all of the original Avengers were spared and that virtually all of the Spider-Man crew WERE blipped. So that doesn't bother me too much.
I see now where you're coming from on the time travel, but that's not how I interpreted AoS's time travel. I don't believe that they traveled to 616's future and then changed the future in the past. It's far more likely to me that the Time Monolith sent them to an alternate future, and then they came back to their present. Imagine that the final battle with Graviton is a Nexus event. If Coulson takes the life-saving drug, that leads to future A where Graviton destroys Earth. If Coulson doesn't take the drug, slips it in Quake's gauntlets, but she doesn't find it, that leads to future B where Graviton destroys Earth. If Coulson doesn't take the drug, slips it into Quake's gauntlets, and she finds it but either decides not to use it or is unable to get to it to use it, that leads to future C where Graviton destroys the Earth. And if Coulson doesn't take the drug, slips it in Quake's gauntlets, and she finds and uses it, that leads to future D where the Earth is saved.
We know from the events of Endgame that future D is the true future of 616. If you remove the events of AoS from the MCU, the MCU still would have gone down future D. The Time Monolith instead sent the team to one of the alternate futures A, B, or C. So when they returned to the past and the main timeline that had not yet branched off into futures A, B, C, and D, we were only shown them choosing branch D which is the same branch that the majority of the rest of the MCU we've been shown exists on. (Though, according to Loki they must have chosen all four in different timelines.) So to simplify things, the first half of Season 5 was the agents being abducted from timeline D and thrown into timeline A, then they returned to timeline D in the back half of the season and avoided the nexus events that would have taken them into timeline A, B, or C (from the audience's perspective, that is; from the Watcher's perspective, they took A, B, C, and D in different universes).
As for Season 7, this also matches the Endgame rules. It's a common misconception that traveling to the past automatically creates a new timeline, but the writers of Endgame said that this was not their intention. Traveling to the past and then making a concerted change is what creates a branching timeline. This is illustrated in Hulk's conversation with the Ancient One. Removing an Infinity Stone from the timeline would be a massive change and create a branch. But if you remove the Infinity Stone and then bring it back to the same moment that it was taken, it would be like the Infinity Stone never left the universe from the universe's perspective, thus preventing a branch from forming. This is how Steve planned to return the Infinity Stones. If traveling back to the past automatically creates a new branch, Steve would have been unable to return any of the Infinity Stones to the past to prevent branches from forming (which is what Steve said his goal was right before he went back in time again at the end of the movie). His efforts instead would have just created new branches rather than preventing branches from forming if all time travel immediately creates a branch.
So that's exactly what we see in Agents of SHIELD. Travel to the past doesn't change time. You fulfill the events of the past while you're there unless you make a change so egregious that the universe has no choice but to branch into an alternate timeline to compensate for the change and preserve the original timeline. We see this again in Loki where Mobius tells Loki that despite freeing the goats and wrecking up Pompeii's marketplace, he's detecting 0% variance in the events that happened at Pompeii. Yes, the apocalypse level nature of the event is hiding any major impact of his actions, but his minor actions are producing no variance at all either. When Pompeii was dug up centuries later, the placement of the pottery fragments and goat skeletons weren't in different places because of Loki's actions according to Mobius. We get an even greater confirmation of this in Ms. Marvel when she travels to the past to fulfill the story of her grandmother's childhood. The MCU rules are generally that when you travel to the past, you were always there in the past unless your actions in the past constitute a significant enough change from what would happen, in which case the universe branches so that you both do and don't make that change. AoS followed that rule to the letter in its final season.
Right now SWORD isn't a space-based government agency in the MCU, so it doesn't really matter if Daisy and co. are continuing the space-related branch of SHIELD that was already a thing in Season 6, or if they're part of a new agency. It's definitely confusing since SWORD is so famously space-related in the comics, but as of WandaVision in 2023, SWORD had nothing to do with space anymore. According to the MCU, SWORD was space-related for a time, but then they switched to weapons. Their name doesn't stand for Sentient Worlds; it stands for Sentient Weapons in the MCU. So at the time Daisy and co. were in space in 2020, SWORD wasn't a space-related organization, and they still weren't in 2023. They may become space-related again at some point in the future, but now in the main MCU timeline we're 3-6 years past Daisy and co.'s space flight from the finale, so they may not even be in space anymore.
I have to disagree with your AoS Inhumans take. Note how at the end of Ant-Man Luis talks to Scott about how Falcon is looking for him. And during that story a reporter mentions that there are all sorts of super-powered people in the background of the MCU now. "We've got everything nowadays." And in Civil War Vision mentions that the number of powered-people in the MCU has grown exponentially. Ant-Man would take place just a few months after the Terrigen supply got leaked into the water system and began the influx of Inhumans in the MCU. And Civil War happened less than a year after that. So the movies HAVE mentioned random super-powered people appearing in the background of the MCU after the Terrigen outbreak. The only question is whether these are Inhumans or something else and the timing is extremely coincidental. If they de-canonize AoS, the latter would obviously be the answer. But otherwise we'd be foolish not to kill two birds with one stone by having these references be the Inhumans rather than a new question without an answer. (And then we're told that Lash killed a bunch of the Inhumans, the ATCU abducted a bunch, the Watch Dogs killed a bunch, and the rest of the Inhumans went into hiding and/or were forced to sign the Sokovia Accords and be closely monitored for the rest of their lives so that they couldn't cause any other problems. So us not hearing about the Inhumans anymore isn't really an issue either.)
I think we have evidence that Marvel TV and Marvel movies still worked together quite well in the later seasons of the shows. For example, we know that the shows still ran everything across Marvel Studios before including it in their shows to make sure it wouldn't interfere with anything in the movies. AoS wanted to include MODOK in Season 4 or 5, for example, but Marvel Studios said they had plans for him, so AoS didn't ultimately have the Superior turn into MODOK as they originally planned. And it has since come out that they originally planned to use Whitehall (and the actor who played Whitehall in AoS) for a brief cameo in Endgame, but couldn't make it work due to the actor's schedule, so there were efforts on both sides even though I agree that I wish those efforts had been stronger.
@@Volvagia0slayer Thanks for that additional info. My biggest fear is that the amount of explanation necessary to make things work might be the issue. I had the same mindset as you in that I wanted so badly to make AoS work in the main MCU and I guess if we really work at it, it could, but it just requires so much explanation that it becomes a hinderance I suspect. And I do think that the AoS changed the past in that the actions they had in a given episode of S7 were then felt when they reappeared further in the future. So they were altering the timeline. But with Ms. Marvel's surprising time travel, I guess AoS could still work.
So the bottom line is I was trying to illustrate how difficult some of these shows are to make them fit. Impossible...no, not at all. But it requires alot of explanation and I just imagine Marvel will move on and let them be multiverse stories at this point. But we will likely know for sure in the coming months. I think Marvel will answer the question of canon status sooner rather than later, as people really want to know.
Again, thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I love the conversations and I try not to exclude anyone's opinion. I still feel you could be right on all counts. So I appreciate the dialogue. It's great!
@@AbitofEverything4U When the agents in AoS changed time (actually the Chronicoms probably changed time first), they created a branching timeline and continued the rest of the season in that new branch, which is still following Endgame rules.
Absolutely! I appreciate the level-headed debate and your kind demeanor!
@@Volvagia0slayer Ah, now that I could get behind and that was what I was thinking when I watched it when it first aired as well. I assumed that as soon as they started monkeying around with time travel, they shifted to an alternate reality. In fact, in my mind, all of S5 was in a branch reality and when they came back to their time at the end of S5 it was either second branch or the original one, but not our timeline. In S7 they may have created multiple branches while jumping through time. Then, Fitz used the quantum realm to return to our timeline at the end of S7. That's how my head canon made it work at least.
Great conversation. Thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts on it. I really appreciate the discussion!
Agent Carter is in the mcu timeline on Disney plus so it's cannon
That's actually what makes me question Agent Carter's show. The timeline has the one-shot but doesn't have the show itself, even though it is streaming on Disney+. I am hoping Marvel will confirm sooner than later whether the shows are still canon. I know they were at time they were produced, but things seem to be changing. Anyway, thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I heard that mcu kingpin isn’t the one from Daredevil, because he’s stronger. Also I heard that Daredevil in She-Hulk will be a less dark character. As a guy who didn’t watch the Netflix shows, I don’t really care.
Yes, there have been all kinds of theories about why the Kingpin is so strong. He may have gotten ahold of a super solider serum at some point, which could also explain why he might heal from getting shot by Echo much faster than normal.
And Daredevil will definitely be a less dark character than the Netflix shows. Those shows were great, but they were very R rated, mostly due to intense violence. We may still get a gritty down to earth Daredevil, but certainly not as dark as the shows.
You raise some great points and it will indeed be interesting to see where they go with Daredevil going forward. Thanks for watching and sharing your theories!
@@AbitofEverything4U Daredevil probably won’t be r rated, but seeing as Deadpool 3 will be, some characters who kinda have to be violent like the punisher, might be R rated.
Yes, good point. I don't think Marvel will shy away from making R rated content (Deadpool, Punisher, etc). But I do suspect they will want Daredevil to be more accessible to a wider audience, so his show might be a TV-14. Hopefully it will still have the depth of the Netflix shows, though, as they were so well written.
Agents of Shield its canon in my heart
You are far from alone in that sentiment. Maybe one day! 🤞
@@AbitofEverything4U yes i think one Day Will be Canon
💯
also that time travel scene wasn't from Runaways is was from Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Runaways had time travel as well, in S3 Ep 10. And the rules went against the Endgame rules, unfortunately.
@@AbitofEverything4U that travel scene was more of a portal to another dimension type of travel
@@benbabcock2840 No, he created a time machine and went back in time and altered the past to change the future. It definitely broke the endgame time travel rules.
@@AbitofEverything4U I must be thinking of something else then oh well I'll have to rewatch it but the Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D. time travel also broke Endgames logic
@@benbabcock2840 Right, I checked it on Disney+ as well as reading the synopsis and it is a time machine created by Chase in his attempt to save Gert, which he does end up doing in the episode. And yes, you are correct that Agents of Shield also breaks the Endgame time travel logic, which is why I think that at least the final seasons of both Runaways and AoS are not canon. Earlier seasons could be, but the time travel logic simply doesn't work.
I believe the Defenders era shows (The Netflix Stuff), Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D., Agent Carter, Runaways, Cloak and Dagger are all canon be cause they all reference each other and the mainline MCU. I don’t think Inhuman’s will end up being canon be cause it sucked. Then Hellstrom wasn’t even advertised as Marvel so that is most likely non-canon. But that’s just my opinion.
I think your theory is sound. There is no doubt that the shows you mention were all filmed and produced as canon and Feige even referenced the Netflix shows as canon several years ago. So "once canon, always canon, until Feige says otherwise" is a smart slogan to go by.
That said, I am just fearing that Feige will want to be able to tell new stories without being bound by the previous ones. So I guess we will have to wait and see if there are any contradictions that start to show up over time.
Anyway, your theory makes good sense. Thanks for watching and sharing your feedback!
In my personal opinion, unless certain characters cross over into the MCU, such as Toby and Andrew’s Spider-Men, to me those shows and/or movies are not canon to the MCU.
Yeah, it's such a weird situation. There is a video during a Q&A about Phase 3 back in 2014 where Feige mentions that the Netflix shows in particular are part of the same continuity as the movies. It's that last question on this video: ruclips.net/video/Ak_2fhZUe0s/видео.html.
So originally, all of the shows were assumed to be the same continuity. However, I think you are right that once Feige took over TV and Movies, he has moved the shows into a holding pattern and they are only canon if a character appears in the MCU.
Even Daredevil is still up in the air, as we don't know if his Netflix shows are fully canon or not. I go over this in more detail in this video: ruclips.net/video/SWuovN5xQ1w/видео.html. Should be interesting to see what happens next for DD and Kingpin. We will likely learn more as they continue to get integrated into the larger MCU.
Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I have to disagree with you with Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., you failed to mention that it was Coulson who got the information on the Hydra Sokovia Base where Loki's Scepter is located at, and gave that information to Maria Hill and ordered the assemble of the Avengers to raid it. And the line a couple of friends had the Helicarrier in moth balls, that was both Coulson and Keonig that had it under Theta Protocol. Then there is also the mention of the Sokovia Accords, Peggy Carter's passing and Captain America on the run for violating the Accords. And the snap or blip was somewhat mentioned on the last episode where Daisy says to Coulson there is still a lot of people out there missing. So in my eyes, and I'm right, AOS is Canon.
Great comments. Let me definitely say up front that all pre-D+ shows were filmed and produced as canon and there are interviews with Feige confirming that. So in my mind, "once canon, always canon, until Feige definitively says they aren't". Thus, they are canon at this point. I watched every episode assuming the were canon, although after S5 and the time travel to the future, I admit that I got worried (more on that later).
Next, you bring up lots of great examples of the ties between AoS and the movies with the Scepter, the Sokovia base, and the Helicarrier as well as the Accords, Peggy's death and Cap on the run. While I think these are great, it is important to note that they were all one way references, meaning if AoS never happened, the movies could still happen as is, since the movies never acknowledge that the information for the scepter or the Helicarrier came from Coulson. That always bugged me because I felt the movies didn't want to shake hands with AoS and it was always AoS reaching out with offers to connect and the movies saying "gee, thanks, but we're fine, go play somewhere else". Grrrrrr.
Back to the time travel, I am unsure how that would all fit with the Engame rules, but I guess in my head canon I think they branched when they either went to the future or came back from the future in S5. We do know eventually they did branch, as Fitz mentions it in S7. And I do love that they use the quantum realm to return to the main timeline. So perhaps it all works, but it was some pretty crazy time travel.
I guess my bigger point in the video is that the movies have never once mentioned any pre-D+ TV show and that concerns me because I fear that makes the pre-D+ shows able to be cast aside. Again, they are canon right now...but I fear for their future. I guess we just have to wait to see if Feige comes out with a firm statement or not or if something directly contradicts one of the earlier storylines.
Let me know what you think. I really appreciate you watching and sharing your thoughts!
James Gunn, Marvel Studios (in their book), and Kevin Feige has all said that all the shows before Disney+ AREN'T canon to the MCU so this isn't a real question and people need to accept the facts
Interesting. James Gunn saying it doesn't mean as much (he also said I Am Groot shorts are not canon but Marvel says they are), but Kevin Feige saying it is a big deal. When did he say that?
The real issue is Feige has earlier said that they are canon and even said they might have appeared in a portal somewhere in the large battle of Endgame. So Marvel has gone back and forth, but I personally suspect that the shows won't end up being canon to 616 but will instead be said to exist in a different universe. But let know more about Feige's quote. That's fascinating.
Thanks for watching and adding to the conversation!
There is no right or wrong, but I personally don't like the "multiverse; therefore everything is canon" argument as if that's true then there isn't a point of talking about it.
I don't think we should lump all universes in the same multiverse.
Agreed...it is at least nice that everything can exist in the multiverse, so the Fox X-men, Legion, Gifted, the Fantastic Four movies, the early Blade movies, the Ghost Rider movies, etc, can all exist out there. But I do think the pre-D+ shows should be considered 616 canon as they were filmed and produced as such and "once canon, always canon, until Feige says different" in my opinion.
That said, I am fearing Feige is slowly moving away from the pre-D+ shows. I suspect we will learn more as Daredevil appears in She-Hulk, Echo and Born Again. I do hope that Karen and Foggy are still in Daredevil and would love to see Punisher and Luke Cage. I don't care what they do with Iron Fist, although his second season was much better than the first.
Anyway, thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
I would say that agents for shield seasons 1-3 are canon and then agent Carter season 1 is canon and then daredevil season 1 is canon until any of the other Netflix characters show up.
I like your approach. And it goes with my theory that at first, there was a strong attempt by the shows to fit as closely as possible with the MCU movies, but that over time, this drifted away and the shows went in their own direction and did whatever they wanted. They still tried to avoid directly conflicting with the movies, but by doing so many new stories they were walking into a mine field and it finally caused the issues we are seeing today.
Hopefully the new Daredevil show will give us more answers as to what portions of the Netflix DD seasons are canon. Should be an awesome series. Thanks so much for watching the video and commenting!
Boy do I got news for you
Ikr? I'm shocked but also ecstatic. Love it so much!
when it's made by Marvel Television(Not Studio) = It's not MCU Canon.
I think that's a good rule of thumb at this point. Prior to Disney+ I believe Feige considered all the shows canon, even if they basically ignored them in the movies and made few if any crossovers (Age of Ultron being the only minor example). Then, when Disney+ came, the default assumption was the Marvel Television shows were not canon. All that said, the Netflix shows stand the best chance of being somewhat canon, as they really didn't contradict the movies. However, I think that we will start to see contradictions start showing up as Marvel brings the Netflix characters into the MCU proper. So the bottom line is that I think you are correct in your assessment. Thanks so much for watching and commenting!
They should be canon because it would be dumb recast the entire marvel universe just to fit it into the 616 MCU😅😩
Good point. I don't suspect we will see alot of recasting per se. Here's my take:
- For the Netflix shows, they will either bring back the original actors (which I suspect will happen in most cases) or punt on the characters (I see this happening with Iron Fist).
- For AoS, they will hopefully bring forward Quake, but it's hard to predict. Ghost Rider will likely not just be recast, but redone completely, but again, just a guess.
- For Runaways and Cloak and Dagger, I suspect they will just move on from them, but you never know.
- For Agent Carter, they are likely just going to stick with the one-shot and not the series.
Anyway, will be interesting to see what happens in the future. Lots of stories to be told. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@AbitofEverything4U thank u & ur welcome🤗
All Marvel TV MCU shows are canon to the 616 universe. People need to stop saying they're not. Marvel made those shows and will not start from scratch with any of them.
Yeah, that's what's so frustrating about the situation. Marvel said they were canon and they were all produced as such. However, once Loeb left Marvel TV and Feige took over, their 616 canon status has gotten foggier. They aren't in the D+ timeline and worse, Agent Carter's one shot is in the timeline but not her show. But all of that said, Marvel has not declared them not canon, so I say "once canon, always canon, until they say they aren't canon".
It was a little scary to hear Charlie Cox say this about the new Daredevil series, however: “My feeling is, based on the title Born Again, I think that the sense is it is a new beginning, it is going to be different, it is going to be totally different. It is going to be new stories, and new ideas. It is a Season 1, it is not Season 4, so it is a whole new thing. Which I think is the way to go. If you are going to do it again, do it differently.” Yikes!
I guess we have to wait and see. At some point Marvel has to make it more clear. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
The problem with it being canon or not is that if some of it is canon then it all has to be canon... Otherwise marvel fans will be the new star wars fans and slowley destroy marvel studios...
Marvel studios will eventually have to answer the question. Smartest option would be use varients in multiverse as set up by Loki, N.W.H and M.O.M and rap it all up in secret wars...
Keep in mind there are 2 slated projects in the 6 mobths between Avengers 5 and 6 they could use to focus on that speciffically.
Yes, I have had the same concern that what has happened with Star Wars could happen with the MCU in regards to whether those shows are canon or not. I am hoping that can be avoided, but I fear it may be tough.
One possible solution that wasn't available to Star Wars, however, is the multiverse. So, Marvel could say that every single show happened exactly as televised but in a different universe. Thus, they are all still intact in that regard. Then, in 616 any aspect of the shows that Marvel likes can be said to be canon, but slightly altered to eliminate any references to the stuff not being pulled over.
I think the Daredevil: Born Again series will where we get a firm idea of what Marvel plans to do. Hopefully they can pull it off in a way that isn't as divisive as things have been for Star Wars. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@AbitofEverything4U Born Again will be interesting especially with the "rumor" of Fisk running for mayor... How would that even work if Netflix is canon? I mean sure he could in universe but with public perception of him and all he done i dobt see it feesable...
Also i want to see the hand done way better then they were... I would tie it into shang chi lore that when Wen Wu gave up the 10 rings for love and family the Hand branched out from there.
Iron fist could also be spun out from Shang Chi as another city in the realm tal lo was in. In the movie they say a line about how there are other cities like it... I would deff introduce the rebooted iron fist in the sequal kind of like how cap 2 did winter soldier.
Yes, the Kingpin as Mayor storyline will both be interesting and will be telling in how it is handled. If the Netflix shows end up being canon, he has a long way to go to redeem himself in the public eye.
And yes, the Hand was a lowpoint for me in the Netflix shows. Started out pretty cool in DD S1 and got abit strange in DD S2 and went over the top in Defenders. Need to just move on like that never happened.
And your ideas on Iron Fist are interesting. I could either see Marvel just plain ignoring the character or perhaps using your ideas as a way to fold him in as part of the Shang Chi lore. Nice call!
@@AbitofEverything4U The thing i notice with Feigey and the MCU is that they tend to Simplify things so "Normies" and casual fans can follow... Sometimes it hurts projects sometimes it helps. Thats why i think they are slow dripping the idea of mulfiverse and varients before diving deep into reboot or recast characters.
Its lso why i think the best way to handle Iron Fist and The Hand is to spin it out of something people have seen in universe and that people generally received as positive. Also with the director of shang chi going on to do Kang Dynasty and i will assume also Shang Chi 2 i feel Feigey has something up uis sleeve for it all.
@@Michael-Phantom Fantastic observations. Yes, I think Feige is a genius and he finds ways to make as many of the casual fans and the hard-core fans both happy and that isn't easy. Granted, some hard-core fans get frustrated with the approach, and I understand that. But I also appreciate that he is being cautious about how he re-introduces the legacy TV shows. So funny to call them that, since when I first watched them I assumed they were all canon. But it's not real clear now.
I also agree with your excitement about the Kang Dynasty. I think Feige has got something cooking and it will be very satisfying when we finally get there.
Yes they are. They were made with the intention of being canon. Marvel never said otherwise.
Yep, that's how I've come to look at it as well. Feige said they are canon at one point, and until he says otherwise, they are canon. Totally agree! Thanks so much for watching the vid and sharing your thoughts. Really appreciate it!
Daredevil
Jessica Jones
Luke Cage
Iron Fist
The Punisher
The Defenders
Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.
Agents Of S.H.I.E.L.D.: Slingshot
Agent Carter
Inhumans
WHiH Newsfront
Helstrom
Runaways
and Cloak and Dagger
are all in the mcu
I am not sure that Helstrom was ever considered at 616 canon, but I do agree that all of the other items were filmed with the understanding that they were canon. It's been interesting, however, to see how things are being handled now that Feige is the head of movies and TV. While there has been no statement that any show previous to Disney+ is being removed from canon, there has been no re-confirmation that it is canon, although none of the pre-D+ shows are in the official timeline, which could be telling. I suspect that we will learn more about those pre-D+ shows now that Daredevil has several upcoming appearances, including She-Hulk, Echo, and his own Born Again show. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
@@AbitofEverything4U Helstrom was originally cannon but they scrapped it
The web series WHiH Newsfront connects all shows except Helstrom
@@benbabcock2840 Right, I think they briefly planned on Helstrom being canon, but it wasn't considered canon for long. So I have an easier time dropping it from the list of official 616 canon.
@@AbitofEverything4U Ya Marvel wanted nothing to do with it so technically you don't have to watch it but personally I'd still like to keep it
My take is that the entire Defenders Universe is canon and possibly Agent Carter and I dont think anything else is
Yeah, it's getting harder and harder for AoS to be considered canon. Even Agent Carter is abit tricky. I think the Defenders Universe will be 90% canon, but that they will redo Iron Fist (or eliminate him altogether) and may redo Electra and the Hand. But I suspect everything that happened with DD and Kingpin are 616 canon and hopefully Jessica Jones, Punisher and Luke Cage follow soon. Anyway, thanks so much for watching and adding your thoughts!
@@AbitofEverything4U my take on aos being cannon is they are in 616 but in s7 they branched out then came back and the reason they dont realy talk about anything that happen is so they dont spoil anything for the main movies :)
@@13QDJ I like the sentiment. Let's hope there is a way to keep as much of AoS being 616 canon as possible. I think Feige is smart to dodge the issue for now and leave it up to fans to decide, but at some point, he needs to make the call and answer it for good.
Helstrom is a great show but it feels so separate from Marvel
I agree on both points. I liked it, but it also felt isolated. I wonder if they had continued on with the other planned shows if it would have integrated more down the line. Will be interesting to see how Werewolf by Night and Man-Thing (there is a very brief shot of him in the Werewolf trailer) get integrated into the MCU. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts!
I personally think that they were suppose to be but they aren't anymore
I feel like if they were they woulda made it obvious with kingpin and Daredevil
I will say this tho I've never seen Legion, Gifted, Helstrom, MODOK, or Hit monkey. So I don't know if those be cannon or not 😭
Yeah, sadly I think you nailed it. They were all created with the intent to be canon to the sacred timeline, but now are being considered branches off the sacred timeline, basically like a "What If" episode. So, the good news is that the characters can return in the future, such as Secret Wars.
Yes, they are. Marvel never said otherwise.
Yeah, I think that's a safe position to take. There is no doubt that they were filmed and produced as canon at the time and as far as I'm concerned "once canon, always canon, unless Feige says different." So they should be viewed as canon unless they are contradicted in the future.
But my gut tells me Feige is slowly moving away from the pre-D+ shows. I suspect we will know for sure when Daredevil starts appearing in She-Hulk, Echo and finally in Born Again. Can't wait to see him again. Fantastic character. Hoping we get to see several of the Netflix characters again.
Anyway, thanks so much for watching and sharing your thoughts. I really appreciate it!
@@AbitofEverything4U why move away from those shows?
@@jonathancharron7360 I think Feige was always frustrated that he didn't have more control over them and now that he does, I am assuming he will redo some of the stories, such as Electra, but that's just guess.
@@AbitofEverything4U what make's you think that?
@@jonathancharron7360 Feige and Wheedon never seemed to get along and it was really telling that Feige never tied into Agents of Shield even though Agents of Shield had several tie-ins to the movies. It was a one way relationship and that was really strange. Also, Feige cancelled all the shows after he took over TV, even though Daredevil S3 was amazing and everyone wanted more. So I think Feige likes to be in control of the properties (who can blame him?) and that he has little regard for tying into the pre-D+ shows and so now he won't worry about keeping those storylines intact. But that's just a hunch. We'll have to wait and see how he goes forward with Daredevil and eventually with Ghost Rider and others.
The movies are not the 616 the comics are the 616
Yeah, being old school myself, I know what you mean. The movies are supposed to be Earth-199999. However, the 616 designation has shown up now in several movies/shows. It appeared on Dr. Selvig's chalkboard in Thor: The Dark World, in the video reels in Loki, in Spider-Man: Far From Home, and finally in Dr. Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. So to newer MCU fans, if I don't call it 616, it get's confusing. Marvel seems to have moved to 616 for the MCU, so that's why I've started using it. Thoughts?
Thanks so much for watching and sharing your feedback!
@@AbitofEverything4U The other problem with the MCU being Earth-199999, as referenced in some wikis and handbooks(?), is that this would imply that it is in the same multiverse as the comics. This assumption breaks when one considers America Chavez, and the statement in MoM that she is unique in the multiverse. This then would imply that movie America and comics America are the same character, which cannot be true.
@@jtverland7224 Interesting point. Yeah, it just seems 616 is where the MCU has landed for the prime universe.
this is why a soft reboot would work.
Excellent point! I can't help but wonder if Secret Wars might be a way to address some of pre-D+ shows. Great comment. Thanks so much for watching and sharing your theories!
You sound off here, we’re you sick or something?
Yeah, I was definitely NOT feeling well that day. Probably shouldn't have recorded the vid, but I was excited to get this one out. Sorry you had to listen to that gravelly voice!