Warhammer Weekly 11182020 - Broken Realms: Morathi Review
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- Опубликовано: 27 май 2024
- Join us for another week of news, rumors and all things Warhammering! This week, it's finally time, time to break down Broken Realms: Morathi, this book is amazing and we are excited to deep dive into it.
0:00 Introduction
47:35 Pick of the Week
52:20 Hobby Time
1:05:00 Daughters of Khaine
1:37:15 Stormcast Eternals
2:10:45 Cities of Sigmar
2:32:08 Idoneth Deepkin
2:42:16 Slaves to Darkness
2:54:45 Slaanesh
2:58:58 Lore
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Игры
Thanks for having me on the show Vince & Tom! What a great book to unpack
It was great to have you on sir.
From the organization of the time stamps, the production of the show, three informative host, and a damn good book, i loved this episode.
Thank you fellas. I’m on such a Warhammer high
Thanks man, trying to step up the game. :)
This just gets me EVEN MORE EXCITED for Broken Realms: Settra The Imperishable
I see your Vampirates and raise you my own.
The day you are finally proved right will be a great day for you indeed. Talk about only the faithful.
@@VinceVenturella I think at this point it's "Solely" the faithful
Timestamped chapters :D
Thank you :)
Finally! What's taken me this long?
I love the new timestamps!!! Even though I almost always watch the full show, sometimes browser glitches or closing tab accidentally made it hard to get back to where in the show I was. Thanks for doing that :D
Glad you like them! We will be doing that going forward for the regular show.
So here's a weird thing about the Idolaters' "priests get the leader keyword" allegiance ability:
Warshrines can now be Leaders, but still are not Heros, and so are not able to take Command Traits or access the Aura of Chaos.
Furthermore, because Cultist units have no Mark of Chaos they can only be targeted by the Undivided Idolator prayer, which heals d3 wounds. Cultusts are predominately 1 wound models and can't benefit from the heal.
So the army that is focus on priests doesn't allow you to take your best priest as a general and buff him accordingly.
The army that is focused on Cultists doesn't allow you to use your prayers to buff them.
These are all good points, very strange stuff in this force. :)
Tacking on more insult to injury, because you can only upgrade one chariot to an Idolator Lord and he’s the only one that has access to the prayers and some other allegiance abilities, you’re putting a lot of eggs in one basket. And, if you take Rokar Gresh’s battalion, he’s forced into going Undivided, which strips you of your freedom to use the other prayers! And oh yeah, that set of 6 Command Traits that could’ve been cut in half to give you at least 3 Artefacts? It can only be taken by a Priest general, which means only your one non-Rokar Idolator Lord can take it!
I also would like to add that if you wish to build other battalions in the S2D book using this, say Ruinbringers - you cannot use this new chariot dude as your general as the keywords for "idolator chariot lord" is missing from the requirements. Love the idea of it all but its badly in need of fixing right up.
On a side note please let us use chaos chickens and harpies aswell - you guys wish to sell warcry stuff, and i want my chaos warhounds [ chickens ] back!
I really enjoyed listening to you guys and it was great to see the coach on Warhammer weekly!
It was great to be on again.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Vince stole my line! It is obvious that Van Brek was save by a Vampirate! ;)
Vampirates!
Good coverage - did amuse when Vince was saying he want's his giants to get what Anvilguard got ... too soon
I mean, when even Anvilguard is getting better tech, just...why.
@@VinceVenturella yeah does seem odd as that time wasn't spent kicking out 10-20 scrolls, I mean tyrants get big names
Nagash "learned" his magic from the Dark Elves. That's a fun euphemism for took from against their will via convincing discourse because elves didn't think humans should have magic.
Haughty elves think humans aren't good enough for magic. Nagash showed them!
Yes he did, by dying like three times. He failed his way to victory well. Talk about plot armor. ;)
@@VinceVenturella not even remotely close to true. He is a self starter who took the power he was denied, worked hard, pulled himself up by his bootstraps, self taught magic, invented immortality, and ground his way to the top despite numerous haters and Mary Sues stepping in his way. Nagash is the self made man turned self made god and we could all learn from him. Nagash is basically Hamilton. He wrote his way out... With 9 books.
What did Sigmar ever do? Born into royalty with worshippers baked in and then nepotismed his way to the top?
Happy early birthday Vince~
Man, I hope you're right both about Skaven and about Vampirates but I hope they get spaces out. I've already bought basing stuff for pirates... but as most people know Skaven are my all time favorite army so yeah... really really excited about all this. What a great time to be into AoS!
Yeah, as usual for the past year, it really does feel like anything is possible.
AOS is so awesome right now
It really is.
Not gonna lie, I finally subbed because you added timestamps.
That's awesome, honestly, I should have done it long ago. It will be a thing going forward. :)
Another fantastic episode with erudite analysis & discussion - thank you 🙏
Glad you enjoyed it!
When a unit with the stormcast Eternals keyword is part of a stormcast army it gains a stormhost keyword (read wording at beginning of allegiance ability) Rai and raw both mean you can use stormhost specific CA.
But the city units don’t ever get the SCE keyword. They are treated as having it for the purpose of command abilities. This means that they never get it because ether don’t have the SCE keyword.
What Tom said, they are never actually gaining the SCE keyword, they are counting as it when targetted by the CA.
Great episode im super excited to my book when ever it ships! Makes me want to start my own Warhammer channel!
Go for it! :)
Great show guys, really enjoyed the rundown, makes me think I need this book now! I can't wait to see Teclis' reaction to how the IDK have behaved :D
The whole pace of the book I agree seems wild, and it gives me some hope that we might even see Tyrion appear sooner than everyone was thinking. I think everyone that plays AoS should be excited.
Glad you enjoyed it! :)
Thanks for the timestamps, Vince! Really appreciate it!
You bet!
Love the timestamps!
Awesome. :)
Looking forward to the show on Saturday!
Very excited. :)
Been a while. Happy to get back into AOS with this cool release. Looking forward to seeing what’s next for AOS.
Same here!
Vince is the captain now
I am the captain! ;)
Great stuff, coach is a such an excellent geezer.
No my favorite part "its Wednesday its Warhammer" was but cut! Not sure how im going to make it through!
Yeah, for some reason it doesn't pick up right when it says we are live on my screen, I will delay for another second or two from now on.
Alrighty here we go! Been looking forward to this one. I’m curious to see if you guys found as many super glaring wording inconsistencies and interpretation issues in this book as I did (I’ve already sent in 2.5 pages of FAQ requests).
That said, I agree that the story is awesome, the general direction they’re headed in rules-wise is fantastic, and of particular note, the scroll rewrites really deliver.
I’ll throw my remaining two cents in after hearing what you guys have to say!
There was so much to cover we didn't get too deep into FAQs (but they are there), certainly curious as to what you found as well.
This makes me excited about Stormcast again! The Stormtower I like the most because it has the feel of a proper army and (if you stand still...) you get an elite stat line they should have started with.
Castigators are funny. If they stand still they're 18" 2+/3+/-2/1 with a 3+ save. Probably still not enough volume of shots but for 80pts for 3 models it might have some use.
Yeah, the garrison is really the solid stormcast battalion, I love it for a nice, great feelin, balanced SCE army.
Id say the only good artifact for Slaves would be taking the reroll 1s to wound artifact (Uglu?) on the Karkadrak. Make him Khorne marked so he rerolls ones to hit and wound. Then gresh makes him +1 to hit. So he's 2s and 2s reroll all the stuff. Now you can also make knights hit on 2s wound on 2s with a Gresh/Karkadrak bash bros combo. Great show as always!
Good call, that's not terrible. It's not great, but its far from bad. And I do like running this Khorne in Ruinbringer
Great show guys. What do you think the horned rats reaction to the freeing of the protoform will be? What is he up to? Will we ever see lesser demons/steeds/hounds of the horned rat?
Our previous prediction show I said I think Skaven will be the 1/2 of the starter box at the launch of 3.0 next year. I think Skaven are due. So I think they will have some big moves.
As a DoK player I've been looking forward to this one (Khelt Narr to be precise
This was a fun one for sure. :)
"Strap on your ... chaps"
I was sure that was going a different direction.
I suppose its a plus it bottom'd out with the chaps ........ I'll see myself out
Well, we have to start slow. :)
Oh man, so happy they made my Liberators playable again. Stoked!
Indeed. :)
2:45:28 love the show guys!
Thanks, this was fun. :)
Super fun as always, but I think your dislike of Aelves effected your reading skills a bit: Morathi was only after the old HE kings, because they still had a piece of Asuryan’s divinity in them. None of the elf heroes were caught by her. And in the “what comes next” WarCom article - they mentioned that many elf souls escaped from Slaanesh, so the opposite is true, all the old elf heroes are on the table to come back : ). Will be very exciting though to see what happens to Slaanesh though. Hopefully we get to see some hammer pants tomorrow ^^
Well, I think now you're reading in too much. I went back and read both, and the brightest souls, the oe she wanted, the King Souls, were all consumed save aenerion, the others were weak and the only things she handed over were the IDK king's brethern. So I am sticking to my guns here. ;)
@@VinceVenturella That's true, I only thought of the heroes - because of the WarCom article speaking of powerful self souls that were released. Which didn't sound like the Cythrai, but then of course it's a WarCom article :)
I do love how DOK looks now, it does feel like you NEED to have Morathi in a list as she is just that good, that might be fine but I do worry about auto includes and getting to 1 list territories but otherwise looks pretty sweet
Yeah, the auto-include is always rough, but I love how awesome she is.
Vince... you get mad respect for your rap references on the show!!! Onyx!!! Who knew you had so much street cred??? Lol!
Always ready with an Onyx reference. :)- Just wait until next week when we get into the ODB.
I'm calling it: The Gates of Azyr crack in the final Broken Realms book, cue 3.0
I hope not. But we'll see.
Dipped out for the spoiler talk because I haven't gotten my book yet, but looking forward to reading it.
No issue, I understand and that's why we saved it until the end. :)
Hopefully idolators and misthavn get some erratas to piggyback off existing subfaction rules to fix some of the missing stuff, and fix the keyword issues in idolators. If they do Corvus cabal idolators might work its way up my to-do list.
I think Tom's wrong about spiderfang though, as much as I would love a warscroll update for spider riders a point drop (to 5-20 90/320) and solid subfaction could fix them. Spiderfang buffs are multiplicative, but the big issue is availability of them. An artifact and/or command trait to buff casting, and a long range (16-24") CA to make poison trigger on 5s would be huge, if the subfaction also made crooked spears poisonous they would be set I think. If the bows become poisonous these guys will make Sentinels look underpowered. (2 shots per spider rider, max unit size 30, so ~10 mortals with no buffs, 20 with one venom buff, or 40!!! With both).
This is my feeling on Spiderfang as well.
Not sure whether it will be this weekend but I think we will get a model for Slaanesh’s son. BR says he is deciding his form and there is no way we can have actual Slaanesh on the table if he was to break free of his chains.
Seriously, that would be amazing.
@@VinceVenturella I know. Imagine a Slaanesh son Demi-god on the table and how the narrative would see Archaon going up against him fitting with the Broken Realms theme. Maybe Archaon is jealous/ worried or Slaanesh son is angry Archaon hasn’t broken his father free. Time will tell ✌️
I dont understand why they gimp the CoS units in an SCE army like that. I understand Stormhosts would be broken with some CoS units, but something simply like treating all aura/ prayers/ spell that target STORMCAST ETERNALS, can also be applied to COS units would go a long way in making Mortal Auxiliaries fun and interesting
It's very strange indeed.
I had to take a break to finish reading the story, I was rather impressed with the page-turner ability of a “rule book” and Ven Brecht has me wanting a Warcry Stormcast band. I guess they know how to sell me stuff. But the best of all is now when I’m getting into AoS I can go Cobra Kai from start.
Also did they just “wreck” the AoS RPG setting or am I just confused because it’s the middle of the night?
I mean, they certainly threw a spanner in the works of the AOS RPG, that just published an Anvilgard setting. Whoops.
I really dont get the confusion about the SoB FAQ. The designers note allows the SoB player to decide wether to you use the battle trait or to follow the scenario rules each time control of an objective is determined. So in the example of Places of Arcane power it means whenever a hero ends his movement wthin 3" of the objective. So if the opponent moves within 3" of an objective with no giants nearby and the SoB player decides to follow the battle trait even if its not his turn, it doesnt matter that a giant counts as 10/20 models because its just not contesting it.
What makes people think that the opponent cannot take the objective even if there is no giant within 3" of it?
Well, because there is a lot of lacking clarity here because the lack of information in the underlying scenarios. Let me explain.
Let's start with the simple one.
1) SoB against you. You move your hero onto the Objective. I walk up the 6" line and say, we're using the normal rules now. I am 20 guys, you are one guy, this is my objective now. And I just take it away from you. Let's assume that next turn, I squish your hero, but then you come up with 21 guys in range. When it comes time to check for objectives. I say, no, we're doing the hero capture again now, this is mine.
2) The real nightmare. The rules lawyer nightmare. You move your hero onto the Objetive in PoaP. I, the SOB player am no where near that objective. When you are moving on, that is when control is checked for PoaP (No other hero, did you move without retreating). In the movement phase, I say - No, we are using the normal capture rules for that objective I am no where near. Now, that doesn't bother you, the SOB is no where near this objective, so you will still be "1" and that is more than 0. Then it comes back to the end of the turn when the normal objective control is checked and I switch, I say, no, now were using the hero capture rules. The issue is you already passed the movement check, so you didn't move onto it when those were the rules, we passed that checkpoint. So now you are standing on it, free and clear and you score nothing.
It's just a bad situation that gets worse when we get to the different giant types and the other scenarios. It's very murky and the issue isn't whether I think the above is feasable (I think it's hot trash and I would be angry at anyone taking that opinion), the issue is, it's defensible RAW. When that is the case, you have unclear rules and invite arguments. Regardless of how clear you think it is, if there is enough room to doubt for someone else to launch a cogent argument against, you get debate.
@@VinceVenturella First of all, thanks for the thorough reply. I really appreciate it.
My point is, that i think the rules are very clear on this one hence my confusion about the argument. The designers note explicitely says that you can choose between wether to use the battletrait or to follow the rules from the battleplan but only IF the battleplan does not follow the normal rules for controlling objectives.
But choosing the battletrait doesnt provide the the SoB player with the ability to determine when to control an objective. Which part of the battletrait makes people think that they can do so? In PoaP for example there is no checking for objective control at the end of the battleround because the battleplan does not follow the normal rules for controlling objectives. Therefore the SoB cant contest it at this point let alone say that he changes the rules for objective control from PoaP to core rules to deny his opponent victory points.
Or maybe i dont understand it because english is not my mothers language :).
@@VinceVenturella your interpretation is so far off that it's crazy
@@Andaars That could very well be, I may be dead wrong, but this is me taking my honest best effort at interpretation after discussion with lots of other smart players reaching similar conclusions. We could all be completely wrong and that's fine, but it speaks to the need of the clarity and/or change of the rule. :)
@@VinceVenturella there is only 1 question in the long text above the simple answer. That question is: "Does that mean, for example, in 'Battleplan: Places of Arcane Power', I could choose to contest an objective with a friendly MANCRUSHER unit even though it does not have the Leader battlefield role?" We both read "Yes." as the answer to that question.
The first part is just to give context to the question, saying: "The designers note on 'Mightyer makes Rightyer' states that in battleplans that do not follow the normal rules for controlling objectives, you can pick whether to use the battle trait or to follow the rules from the battleplan."
Mightyer Makes Rightyer: "When DETERMINING control of an objective, each friendly MANCRUSHER GARGANT model counts as 10 models instead of 1, and each friendly MEGAGARGANT counts as 20 models instead of 1."
"Designers note: If the battleplan being played does not follow the normal rules for controlling objectives, you can pick whether to use this battle trait or to follow the rules from the battleplan each time control of the objective is DETERMINED."
Places of Arcane Power:
"The normal rules for controlling an objective are not used in this battle. Instead, a player controls an objective if a Leader unit from their army finishes a move within 3" of the objective, unless that move was a retreat move. The player loses control of that objective if that Leader unit is not within 3" of it or is destroyed."
2nd part tells you additional rules for the objective:
"Only 1 Leader unit can control each objective at a time - if more than 1 unit is eligible, then the first to arrive controls it. If an enemy unit controlling an objective is destroyed by an attack made with a melee weapon by a Leader unit, then the attacking unit immediately gains control of that objective, as long as they are within 3"
So if we look at all 4 rules here the "Yes." does not change anything more than this:
SoB MANCRUSHER units are eligible to contest objective control even if it is not a Leader because as it have 'Mightyer makes Rightyer' it can chose to trigger that trait instead of following the alternate rules when determining control. This does not change the alternate rule for any models that don't have 'Mightyer Makes Rightyer' and it does not change when you determine control. all it changes is that a Mancrusher unit is an eligible unit. So you wont check for determining control when the Mancrusher unit finnish a non-retreat move within 3" of the objective, but if a Leader finnish a non-retreat move within 3" it will trigger a check to determine control. If a Mancrusher unit was the first eligible unit to arrive it would gain control of the objective. Mancrusher units can not immediately gain control if it kills an enemy unit controlling the objective, because it does not have the Leader battlefield role when it kills the enemy unit and therefore it will not trigger the 'immediately gain control' part of the rule. So you would have to wait till a Leader makes a non-retreat move within 3" of the objective again to be able to trigger 'Mightyer Makes Rightyer' again.
Vince this thing looks TOTALLY skaven... the twin spike thing is directly reminiscent of ninja rats. I know because I just reattached one of them to a staff on a custom grey seer model I'm working on.
Now i'm just getting more excited.
@@VinceVenturella I knoooowwwwwwwww. The thing is... its so decayed and destroyed it feels like it could be pestilens-ey. In Total Warhammer they just announced a new skaven hero campaign with a VERY rotten/mutated warlock appearing to lead the campaign. Maybe Moulder?
Gimli, looking up at an Ironclad with twenty Grundstock Thunderers onboard: "That still only counts as one!"
Makes sense to me.
If something surprised me most storywise [Spoiler] it was the fact that Morathi bargaining with Katakros. For some reason it had been stuck in my head that they wouldn't cross the GA-borders. Especially with Death.
I liked it, I hope we see more of that.
I feel we’re getting some insights into Vince and Toms “relationship” in this...
And it's sexier than we thought. Click like and subscribe to find out more!
I feel our show is always a window into our soul.
There is an old meme of a child looking at a sea turtle and the turtle says "come at me bro ill turtle slap the S*** outta you" turtle fin damage 4, mega giant club dmg 2 lol
The giant club pain continues
I think a lot of people want vampirates but nurgle has leant into the 'Drowned Men' stuff more than a few times over recent years and thats really the only mortal nurgle faction with names and faces and i could see a 1 wound mortal alternative to plaguebearers not unlike the Poxwalkers for the Deathguard. Personally i would love to see pestigors and slaangors return but if Slaanesh Mortals are getting a bit of a persian vibe to stand out more i could see nurgle get 'drowned mortals' who are all water bloated from deaths at sea to make nurgle mortals more than "big dudes in armor... but not that one you are thinking of... or that one... these are green... no. not those big green armoured guys". Give me Prince of Persia Leather Daddies versus The Bloated and Barnacled for a box and i'm sold.
Not long now until we know.
Played a game as Idolators. It doesn’t seem -bad-. I actually got a lot of good use from the +1 to prayers. But why do I get no artefacts? Even varanguard get artefacts in their subfaction. Why doesn’t the Idolator lord get Eye of the Gods DESPITE getting a command trait to improve my eye of the gods roll? Why do warshrines suddenly take up slots for heroes without most of the benefits when I build an army?
It’s odd. It feels like they rushed this one put without reading it twice. FAQ it a bit, just give us Ravagers god awful artefacts or something. Then it’ll be fine.
Yeah, it really feels half finished. :)
I have only one answer for that teleporting-blocking list of SCE - Fangs of Sotek with Kroak.
Depending on the build, it could certainly be a good match-up
So are there two slaanesh now? Cause he is still chained up also will we get a sixth aelven faction with Anerion leading it?
It seems so. I can't see them actually bringing Aenerion back, but I suppose anything is possible.
I think we'll get Battalion boxes, except if any books release new models.
That's likely a good guess.
Marauders not the only choice Depraved Grove also a fairly solid choice for cheap chuff battle line.
Yes, but then I am playing BoC which isn't really what I was wanting with my Slaanesh. :)
After rereading Morathi, and the end of Act II, I have to ask, where is my battalion that lets me bring DoK and Idoneth together?
That would be pretty awesome to see that happen, I am hoping in our next book(s).
Great show as always. Could someone explain in simple terms the relevance of bolded unit titles in Warscroll Battalions? Assume I'm a five year old. xxx
That unit has multiple warscroll/model options, ie lord celestant, lord celestant on dracoth & lord celestant on stardrake
@@mrmct7287 Thanks. So if it's not in bold type then you can only take that warscroll?
Exactly as below, when it's bold, it's refering to the Keyword, so anyone with that keyword can be taken. If it's not bolded, it means the warscroll named that.
Except of course with the MULTIPLE times they misleadingly typed keywords in bold in the Tzeentch battletome (looking at you Lords of Change and Tzaangors).
The thing about baby slannesh is that daddy slannesh is still in chains no? So the Aelves don't know what's up?
Pretty much exactly. Yes.
I think the rumor weapon is for the Cawdor Gang.
This would make me sad.
I’m starting to find Vince’s increasing excitement over mortal Slaanesh disturbing...
You should, you absolutely should. :)
Liberators with Shield of Civilisation are 1" 3+/3+/-/1 and 2 attacks each. 2/3 * 2/3 so 4/9. 61 attacks if all 30 get into combat so 244/9 = 27 wounds before saves.
I don't think they're that scary on output. It's their survivability to just body block and tank hits that's an issue.
Damage has to come from somewhere else in that Stormcast army.
So the key is they can deal 0 damage and win in this build. It's an alpha block build. They can start the game basically in combat with your entire army and they are very difficult to kill, being on 3+/RR1 or 2+/RR1 - meaning that most armies, if they don't have very long flight or a teleport on most scenarios just lose at set-up. By the time they get free, they've lost the scenario on points.
I should state, you're forgetting the grandhammers, which does up the damage some. It's not amazing, a unit of 30 is about 13-21 damage on average against a 4+ save after saves, it's not nothing, but it's the equivalent of the mega-gargants.
Do u expect more cities in future broken realms books?
100%
I do... and hopefully other cities from Soulbound like Brightspear
They only have to 1:4 two more Order factions in for me to be “forced” to own every Order army, so i say bring it on!
Is there a connection between the baby sslanesh and morathi?
Who knows, seems like maybe, but only time will tell.
Previously all the Warcry bands were good for was free summonables in a Ravager army no?
Yep, pretty much.
3:05:45
Does the book ever actually say that this was not a daemon, though? Or was this just some empty bluster from the community team? Because the new reveal is clearly a Keeper of Secrets.
Well, they seem to be more than that, they are similar in form, which makes sense, but they seem to be twin essences of slaanesh. But yes, clearly the community article was full of it.
Get away from my lifetakers Tom! -Dayne
Haha, hope you're doing well buddy.
In all honesty, I don't understand the reaction to the SCE stuff. Because, when you think about it, it comes down to a +1 save to liberators (+1 to hit is irrelevant considering their base size and output), while losing shock and awe (-1 to hit) in the round when they come down).
Take a moment to consider that you could already do all the rest before either through the Skyborne Slayers battalion (deepstrike 5" from the opponent and immunity to battleshock) or a gav bomb, and actually do better than the redeployment (cause you can just drop your liberators as a line across the opponent deployment zone before the charge and not wholly within 12" of the veritant). If it is so strong to deserve these tones, how come competitively no one plays this style so far?
Bottom line: is the +1 to save enough to justify the jubilant / outraged tones and FAQ requests?
Yes, because this is a lot different. It's the pre-game nature of this. When you are dropping, it's very different. I can zone that out, I can chaffe that, I can hold you way out because there is interaction. Your best hope here is that you have untamed beasts and beat me in teh pre-game roll off. I can drop 120 wounds 3" from your army before the game begins or charge from 9" with like +12" - There are many armies that will just lose at set-up. Melee armies without significant telelportation or VERY long flying (as I can block you from a good deal of forward space with the 3" you have to clear beyond me) is just DOA. On many scenarios, you won't be free until turn 3, and I've already won at that point. I could pick the army up and you couldn't catch me on scoring.
Both of the previous things you mention were happning in game, and once the game has started, there is interaction. Here, not only can I do this on 2-4 drops so almost always decide first turn, but I am doing it with very near unbreakable units.
Also, we are asking is +1 save really that big a deal. I would direct you to Petrifex Elite. When you to 3+ or 2+/RR saves of some kind, armies become unbreakable. If those armies are then 3" away from you at the start of the game, that is a very negative play experience for a LOT of armies.
This isn't a question of compeitiveness, this is often where people get lost. It's auto-win against some armies, I am sure some armies have great play against it and it might lose badly to those armies, that's not the question. The question is - Is this healthy for the game, and the answer to that is clearly no. It's WAY to big of a rock to someone's scissors.
many thanks for the long answer!
The point about Petrifex is indeed interesting, but I believe that in many occasion the problem with Petrifex was identified as having survivability AND killing power (the -1 rend). Liberators might have the first, but are still lackluster on the second: I wouldn't forget that with 40mm bases and 1" range you will never have the whole unit in combat. Also, +1 save is on one single unit and with a big condition to get it (not on your whole army and always active) and we all know where melee Stormcasts stand in the meta right now.
Anyway, what I don't understand is the whole first paragraph. If I outdrop you (which is also a condition for the combo we are discussing) by definition you cannot zone me out for my t1 deepstrike, unless you have pre-games movements: if I choose to go first, how would you be outside your deployment zone? where's the "interaction"? the pre-game movement of the patrol has exactly the same condition (9" away) as the deepstrike so there is no practical difference between the patrol battalion and deepstriking when you have initiative on first turn, considering that in the Stormkeep you don't want to move on first turn (cause otherwise you lose the +1).
As of today I can already build (I have actually played it in a recent TTS tournament - Hammertime V) a one drop list with Skyborne Slayers with 30 liberators and 20 protectors -I could also do 2x30 liberators. So I can go first and drop 120 wounds 5" away from the enemy, with battleshock immunity as an added bonus. With a CP to reroll the charge, it's an almost guaranteed charge, or I could include Gavriel+Vexilor. Where are the lists doing great and creating NPEs using this combo?
So, while I partially accept the argument that the +1 to save *is* a big deal, I don't see where's the novelty with all the rest. I hope that this perspective will help to understand how, as a SCE player, I find the whole reaction (nerf this!) a bit too much to take in a world when a Tzeentch 1-drop list can charge me in t1 with a freely teleported unit of 20 pink horrors which literally can pick their charge result and stop me from retreating, while then competely encircling my army as they start losing models. And this, somehow, would be more interactive.
Oook, this was way too long, apologies for the tirade. Now for a much better conclusion: thanks again for taking the time to answer my first comment. Love your show and all your content, hope these UberLiberators bring Tom back to the hobby table at least!
Looks like my meat fork for lg. hams .
Just saying i reckon rumour engine...Slaangor
Oh, can we only hope. That would be wonderful.
I raise you 30 lifetakers tom
Everyone knows you're the man when it comes to LT Dayne. :)
Hoping malus made it out of slaanesh before this.
I'm suspecting no. ;)
@@VinceVenturella yeah I know deep down but I'll always be hopeful lol
It‘s funny how the SCE Community thinks the battalion is okay o.O
Strange...
Misthaven more like missed opportunity
HeyOOOOO - Got em!
Also while i think the Stormkeep Patrol is good, i think youre overestimating it.
Liberators just arent that good, period. Yes the +1 to save works, but +1 to save 20 sequitors in your face with Gav have been a failing strategy since 2019. Why would that work with libs all of a sudden.
The damage output and rend for many armies has gone waaaay up. Are liberators, who dont even have a 2 inch weapon range, and can only fight in one rank) expected to survive more than 2 combat phases ?
This is just disregarding the reality of 120 skinks shooting with MW, OBR Mortek Guard, Fyreslayer Hearthguard, Or Slaanesh or even teleporting shooters in KO and Tzeentch.
Skyborne slayers already lets you put 20-30 libs in someones face. If its that oppressive, where are all these liberator lists dominating tournaments. If alpha strike dont work, why would alpha tar pit do any better?
I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but I do think there is a significant difference here, let me see if I can make my case (again, I will be thrilled to be wrong).
Skyborne Slayers has a lot of tax, units that you wouldn't take here necessarily, this is alot tighter. The existing play was also happening during the game, meaning you could easily get outdropped and then pushed out through board control. THis is happening pregame. Pre-Game is a whole different world when I can put 120 wounds 3" from your lines before we've even started the game.
The Liberators with the +1 to save and +1 to hit can make a big difference. If they also get the castellant buff, that means 60 of those wounds are definitely all mixed in with your stuff and on 2+/RR1. It's the near certainty that is different here than the other previous cases. Your only case where you can't do it is if someone has something like Untamed Beasts with a pre-game move (uncommon) AND they beat you in the roll off to do their thing first.
I've seen a few games use this in TTS, and it's certainly Anecdotal, but they basically just won in set-up.
@@VinceVenturella you bring up some great points.
I still think you're overestimating the power of pre game moves in this instance. They wont have the castellant save since the castellant will be too far away.
I can build one or two drop lists with what we have now in Scions of the Storm that would be just as oppressive , but liberators and sequitors just aren't very good at an alpha strike strategy rn, worse at a tar pit one. Wasnt 2018 just people waiting for or screening out a 2p sequitor bomb in their deployment zone?
Let's say I have 30 libs in my face. So what? It wont matter if it's my turn1 or his since liberators cant even fight in two ranks and they certainly cant deploy in a way which let's them thanks to the wholly within 12 stipulation. On top of that, a lot of armies eat liberators for breakfast even if they're just 5 inches away. 20 morteks supported by a gothizzar. 20 HG berzerkers. A keeper of slaanesh. 3+ re rollable on all saves on sequitors hasnt been good to keep them playable in the current meta, I fail to see a scenario where the liberators meet a more successful end, in your face or not. Even hitting on 3s, they are.....just ok
@@VinceVenturella I will say tho, it will require people to deploy differently and perhaps thatd where its main strength is. Screwing with people's minds. But 30 liberators even on 3s is not a threat im worried about with how the damage in AOS is these days
I was listening to you guys when you were talking about Stormkeep, and I do not share your enthusiasm. To be frank, I do not understand it. Liberators are like the worst battle line unit in the game right now. When the Stormcast Eternals Battletome was released, the first line Stormcasts were obsolete and were pushed out the table by superior units of Sacrosanct chamber. Paladins were nerfed, for example. Precious little if anything was changed from that time. Liberators and Judicators went down for the first time in the last GH. Taking that Liberators are somehow competitive right now is hard to believe for me. Just look on Chaos Warriors that cost the same as Liberators, look on the war scroll and how they can be supported by Command Abilities and Skills. You do not have such options in case of Stormcasts, and tables somehow do not bend under the weight of Chaos Warriors. Looking on battalions now. Stormtower Garrison, 160 points. +12-32 points per unit. Most reasonable 23-27 points. Like 215 for a unit of Retributors when we include them there, and compare them now to the unit of Evocators for 210. Evocators have 21 attacks, can inflict 5 mortal wounds on top of that, have rerolled 1 to save when shooting at, are faster, have higher bravery, can cast and unbind spells. And Evocators were 20 points cheaper then Retributors at the release of the Battletome. Still looks so great now? Yeah, they may be some cheese tactics and one-trick pony configurations, for sure, but what fun would it to be playing in such way when this army is like the biggest one in the whole AoS and suppose to have much more to offer. Paladins went down 50 points from there's original price. And what good that reduction did for them? Where are Paladins now? On the shelf, gathering dust for years. And Lord Celestant’s Command Ability gives +1 to hit, but only if he fights. So, yeah. Compare his Warscroll to that of Chaos Lord. Amazing how much 10 points can change.
I'll be happy if I'm wrong, but I do think there is a significant difference here, let me see if I can make my case (again, I will be thrilled to be wrong).
Skyborne Slayers has a lot of tax, units that you wouldn't take here necessarily, this is alot tighter. The existing play was also happening during the game, meaning you could easily get outdropped and then pushed out through board control. THis is happening pregame. Pre-Game is a whole different world when I can put 120 wounds 3" from your lines before we've even started the game.
The Liberators with the +1 to save and +1 to hit can make a big difference. If they also get the castellant buff, that means 60 of those wounds are definitely all mixed in with your stuff and on 2+/RR1. It's the near certainty that is different here than the other previous cases. Your only case where you can't do it is if someone has something like Untamed Beasts with a pre-game move (uncommon) AND they beat you in the roll off to do their thing first.
I've seen a few games use this in TTS, and it's certainly Anecdotal, but they basically just won in set-up.
@@VinceVenturella If one is looking on that only from the perspective of one particular battalion, then I would agree. But as I was saying, this would be a one-trick pony army, would be a joy to play it, as well as play against it. But on the other hand, who has 60 Liberators? Especially when we consider how they were treated for years. I do not have many Battletomes, and I wonder now. Are there many Allegiance Abilities there that affect only just unit in the army?
Meh, just give me a Chaos Warrior/Knight battalion! Bring back real steel.
Seconded.
.
!
I need to learn how to "send my wife away".
I have no idea how Tom achieved this one.