This was THE episode for me. Thank you! Even as a little kid reading the Book of Mormon that verse has always haunted me. These past two years have been extremely excruciating (nothing due to the plandemic). I couldn't tell if God was preparing me to get ready for polygamy to return or if satan knew that it was a sore subject...either way, I was so beyond depressed about the topic that at times I just wanted to cease to exist if this was what lay in my future and in the eternities. It didn't help that people on facebook, whom I feel are some of the best people I know, hounded the fact that "you're not righteous enough if you don't accept this." Talk about confusing! Every time I sincerely tried to study it out and pray about it, this blanket of depression would come over me. Or when I would hear people say things like, "God loves you", I would immediately hear, "God loves you, but He's going to make you do polygamy." I distanced myself from God as far as I could possibly go. I couldn't understand how a loving God would have His daughters go through something so vile and have it be the rule to get to the highest degree of glory in the next life. The burden became so great that I finally just had to lay it at God's feet. "Thy will be done... please help to to accept polygamy when the time comes." Fast forward a month later and I discovered your videos (thanks for a friend sharing it on her facebook page). I finally feel like there is sunshine in my soul! I can feel Gods love for me!! This HUGE weight has been lifted off of my heart and mind. I have never been so excited to let go of a false tradition! THANK YOU SO MUCH for taking the time to make these videos. May God continue to bless you for speaking His truth.
I think you're missing the point, I think ALMIGHTY GOD referred to the actual situation of our era or way of living(girls are so promiscuous and they don't want to commit to anybody) and there are many homosexuals and weirdos so as a result there will be 7 women to one man; So it is a future visualization of our way of living....
Thank you, Michelle, for doing these podcasts! I’ve had a very hard time feeling that God could love His daughters as much as His sons if He treated us and our feelings with so much disregard. I don’t want to be a part of a harem! I don’t want to be always considered “less than”. In my heart I cannot feel that my purpose is only to help my husband. I am an individual. Anyway. I feel like this has taken a giant weight off of me. I can finally believe that God loves me because it’s like I now have permission to believe that polygamy is NOT of God. I’ve definitely thought so before, but it’s hard being at variance with the church I love. But now I don’t care. Natural men get things wrong all the time. (Just look at the Old Testament!) I’d much rather put my confidence in God than in mortal men.
Really love the symbolism and connection with the 7 churches, followed by the idea of claiming they are the Lord's and want His name or to use His name but as Isaiah said, this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men. Spot on.
This was the episode for me- this is exactly the point that my studies have led me to and the goal I have. It is not insane or unreachable to come into his presence. I appreciate your faithful, humble, approach Michelle. All these problems have led my family to disappointment In the church and distancing themselves from it as they feel deceived and the warnings and reproach for being deceived are so engrained- they have a great distaste. I am striving to bring myself to the point the Lord will tell me what I can do for them and the answer so far has been “seek first to know me then you will have the chance to show them what they can have along with you.” Since I love them so much, I do not feel angry or blaming toward them. I have my moments of feeling that toward our leaders for introducing this, sustaining it, and not disavowing it still to this day. If that would be enough, I’m not even sure. But other false teachings that led our people astray have been disavowed and retracted. So Im struggling with this and I felt you were very humble, patient and forgiving to say that you aren’t condemning those leaders for their role. Frankly, they seem pretty dishonest and I don’t know how to overcome that. It’s so painful! I love the church and want so bad not to be rash and walk away. But coming to realize this is so confusing. So Im grateful for your study and work on this and sharing it. Thank you.
Thank you for such a beautiful comment. I sincerely do understand the feelings you express. It is so painful to see loved ones leave, but it is compounded by the understanding that they are not solely responsible. The feeling people have of betrayal, or not being told the entire truth, are real and very painful. For me it is helpful to remember that our current leaders grew up in exactly the same ignorance that we all did, and being taught the same traditions. Now that the are old and set in their ways, feeling like they have the entire weight of the well-being of the church on their shoulders, I can only imagine how difficult it must be. Even though some of our current leaders are hard for me, I can honestly say that I wouldn't want their job. I always feel that honesty and transparency are best, but I understand that other people don't see it that way. I wish you the very best on our journey and toward your magnificent goal. I do know that God is eager for us to awaken to these promises and to patiently, humbly, and fervently pursue them, enduring to the end (meaning until the goal is accomplished -- not until death.)
So many of us feel the pain...however, as Michelle states below--as we have compassion on those who "seek" to lead the church, we can forgive "those who have trespassed against us"...literally when they said the Koolaide was "safe and effective"...I still am choosing to go to church, partake of the sacrament, fellowship and teach our 12 primary kids about Jesus--how to read the scriptures, and how to pray. Until I am taken out, I stay. Bless you!! I hope more of those who are Christ/God Centered stay!! And help build up the LORD's Zion among us!! I feel so strongly that it is Satan that divides and we NEED to gather together and be ready to do "house churches" when the despots insist we "buy and sell" with a chip in our forehead or wrist.... GOD BE WITH YOU and YOURS!!
Thank you for these videos I've watched every one! And, although I don't have the same depth and breadth of understanding of all the contexts as you have, I'm studying this topic (and others as they come in) and I'm learning much for myself. I really appreciated all verses you referred to that spoke of 'the pure in heart'. Jacob singles out the pure in heart in his sermon as a contrast to those committing whoredoms in Jacob 3. The pure in heart from my understanding are those who are clean and chaste in their thoughts, motives and character. Thank you for making that connection with Zion. Another little side note of something that I've found comforting is that when Jesus visits the Nephites, the record demonstrates that the people were monogamous. 3 Nephi 19:1 "And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ascended into heaven, the multitude did disperse, and every man did take his wife and his children and did return to his own home."
Wonderful video as usual! Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to makes these insightful points. I’m sure it is not easy! But I have benefited immensely from what you have shared and look forward to more.
I found you a couple of weeks ago Michelle. Your insight has changed me, my wife and how I think of my God. Thank you for your hard work, you're amazing.
Beautiful Michelle... thank you for sharing your insight on Isaiah 4:1. I feel your heart is true and your conviction to understand the truth in this topic is noble. I believe your interpretation of this is the best I have ever heard. I will adopt your interpretation, I loved it, thank you for sharing! You quoted : “Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (New Testament | Matthew 7:21 - 23) Inspired Version says: “Ye never knew me,” which puts the responsibility on each of us personally to really “know” the path and pattern of godliness and virtue by living it and becoming a manifestation of it, in thought, word, deed, beliefs and our feelings!
So, I've not finished watching this episode, but I wanted to share a meaning that "popped" into my head (it felt like a revelation) as I read that verse during scripture reading one night. Also, I'm a big believer in multiple fulfillments in scriptures, so it can have more than one interpretation. Here is the one that came to my mind: The 7 women are the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation (also keep in mind the church is the Bride) holding onto 1 man, Christ (the Bridegroom). EXCEPT they do NOT want to change the way they live. They only want to take on His name (profess His name) so they can be saved and their reproach removed.
Who would have known that that was the interpretation. Once explained, SO clear. I was so reluctant to change my church brain for new truth. Since watching the episode when you said "The Savior stayed in the Church but did not submit. . .have the courage to follow inspiration", /Episode 19, has freed me up to investigate. I have ten grown children 9 of whom are active in the church and I have been an example to them of church worthiness. It was gut wrenching to have to ever admit to them that I might become an excommunicated apostate. Now I can have my cake and eat it too.
Just an FYI, though I agree it doesn't really matter as Isaiah didn't write in chapters, Joseph Smith moved Isaiah 4:1 into Isaiah 3 and it is in there as Isaiah 3:27 in the JST. Joseph clearly saw this verse as belonging to chapter 3. 🙂
Thank you for sharing. I think I've heard this before-- that Joseph Smith moved that verse into the third chapter. I'm curious to know if you have a source for that. I'd be interested in reading it.
Thx Michelle. I liked the connection with “reproach.” Excellent insights there. Loved the connections to Zion being those who see the Lord’s face through the Second Comforter, which experience only follows after the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost as you read in D&C 67:10, and as the temple indicates. Would have liked to see more connection from verse 1 to the verses that follow it and not just the verses preceding it, because that is where we discover the full context of the verse. I struggle considering that the 7 women means all the churches of the world when the context both preceding and following that verse deals specifically with the Lord’s covenant people. Prior to the verse are the wicked ones of the covenant people, and following the verse are the righteous ones who are the fruit, or who bear fruit, or become the children of Christ (taking away the reproach of the bride of the bridegroom - the remaining daughters of the “church” or “churches” who have had the covenant extended to them, meaning the LDS churches). Just my thoughts! Excellent work on this!
This has been my favorite episode so far. Wonderful content! I look forward to more soon. Thanks for putting in the effort to be a student of the word and blessing our lives with the word given to you.
My favorite episode so far. Wonderful! The thought burning in my mind during this discussion is that the barren womb of the woman (the church(es)) represents a lack of those who are spiritually born again within her…. Those women in the end times clinging to one man (one who finally has power) are all the churches who are thus barren…. They are all fruitless… Yhey have all gone out of the way… They are all under a reproach of condemnation because they have forsaken the bridegroom…. They (the churches) have not produced sons and daughters of God who have been born of God because they have not hearkened to the doctrine of Christ. And perhaps it’s a prophesy of a mighty servant who will come who will offer the pure in heart within the barren church(es) a way to finally be conceived and begotten spiritually and bear fruit. To twist this beautiful symbolism to somehow justify polygamy surely has incurred the displeasure of God upon the Mormons… and our lack of fruit is evidence of it.
@@crunchymamakat6656 thanks, it’s just the inspiration that came through the spirit thanks to the wonderful work Michelle is doing here on this channel…
This video was so refreshing! For the past four or so years I've been really frustrated with an apparent lack of Biblical literacy among the Saints. (This frustration came while taking excellent religion classes at BYU, doing my own apologetics research on Christianity in general, and comparing varieties of Christians thought with LDS thought.) These literacy issues happen with Isaiah especially! I've never even considered that Isaiah 4:1 could be referring to polygamy, much less polygamy as a good thing, because the verse is obviously referring to a bad situation happening during a catastrophic time (even without the further symbolism you discussed in this video). Another example is the phrase "ensign to the nations." That phrase is sometimes used positively but often used negatively in the Isaiah text. Sometimes it refers to the diaspora returning to Jerusalem during times of prosperity; but often it refers to the Lord bringing enemy nations to war against Israel and smite them because of their iniquity. Yet people in our church ONLY refer to that phrase in the positive sense. It just takes some reading of the surrounding verses and understanding the ancient context to see when that's not the case! I studied Isaiah for a semester-long project and made heavy use of Bible Gateway to compare different translations when I was confused about certain verses, and sometimes I found the meanings were completely different from what I'd been previously taught in our church. Another example is the verse "I have graven thee in the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me." A seminary teacher taught me that the second half of that verse was the Lord saying "your walls of sin and stubbornness get in the way of my helping you, even though I care about you." While that interpretation is a profound one, the text makes far more sense when it's viewed as a parallel couplet with both halves saying the same thing. The walls are referring to the walls of Jerusalem. So basically, it's saying, "I'm always thinking about you; I'm always looking out for your good." Two symbolic ways of giving the same message. Those are just some examples off the top of my head. We really need to improve our Biblical literacy (and Isaiah literacy) as a church and NOT read everything in the Bible through a 19th-century Utah lens. Those can be good and even accurate interpretations (like with "the desert blossoming as a rose" verse) but they are not the most prominent or even important meanings. Nephi taught us to liken the scriptures to ourselves, but that means looking at scriptures in their context to see how they can help us today, NOT changing the meaning to fit something the text isn't saying. TL;DR: Knowing the historical context and meaning of the Bible and especially of Isaiah is important; I don't think the people of the church have enough Biblical literacy, in regards to polygamy or other topics.
Thank you for the clarity this brought! I had worked out that Christ is the only one who can take away reproach, but I could not figure out why they would eat their own bread and wear their own apparel. Because I had it in the context that if they were taking upon Christ's name, they were repentant. The additional thought I had along with your correlation of bread and apparel to covenants is this: Unless you become like a little child ye shall in nowise inherit the kingdom. And little children DEFINITELY do NOT eat their own bread and wear their own clothing. They would rely wholly upon Him who is mighty to save. 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻 Also I'm all for geeking out over Isaiah! When it opens up to us it is such a feast!
Thanks for your insight. Around the 18 minute area you mentioned that the only place in the Book of Mormon where the Lord gives us a command is in relation to studying Isaiah. Ether chapter 8 popped into my head because this is where God Commands us to awaken to our awful situation. With Ether ch 8 being one of my favorite chapters, I had supposed that the command there was uniquely isolated... Until I did a search for the word command. The most common use of the word 'command' in the Book of Mormon is where the Lord is commanding a specific individual, but sometimes his command applies to all of us.
Thank you for bringing this up so I can clarify. I don't think I explained what I meant very well. I was speaking specifically of Jesus's appearance to the Nephites. In 3 Nephi 23:1 Jesus says, "And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah." I believe this is the only official commandment that Jesus gave in person in the Book of Mormon. Of course the Book of Mormon is filled with all kinds of commandments, including Jacob 2 which commands that men should only have one wife. But I can't find another place where Jesus says, "a commandment I give unto you" which is a very important phrase considering that Jesus said the same words to teach us to "love one another as I have loved you." I apologize for not being more clear. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
I recently had a thought about that particular verse--Isaiah 4:1, which went along the lines of "what if that prophecy was never about something positive happening," as I had always assumed it must have meant? I'm not sure where I got the idea that it was a good thing for seven women to take hold of one man, but I can now see it from a different perspective. It's like how Moroni prophesied about the days when the Book of Mormon record would come forth where a lot of negative things will be going on. Maybe Isaiah was just simply stating a fact and I for some reason viewed this particular prophesy as rosy because it was Isaiah who recorded it, and he is "the prophet," right? (And I also once had an accepting view of polygamy as well.) His record is so vital to the Restoration that parts of it were re-recorded in the Book of Mormon, and even the Lord Himself points out how great Isaiah's words are and that we should study them. But I now definitely am considering that the prophesy was not foretelling of something wonderful. I will have to spend a lot of time studying this out and praying about.
You are very welcome. I found your RUclips channel a couple weeks ago and I’ve now watched the first 18 episode in order. I live in Highland Utah and I have 8 kids of my own so I can only imagine how much time you put into gathering all this information. When you mentioned that you needed help with simple things like just mopping the floor, I felt like grabbing my mop and coming over to do it for you just so that you could continue to put together these awesome videos. But it was easier just to send you some money to stay in the game. I look forward to learning a lot more and I’m sure I speak for thousands of people that say, we really do appreciate the content you provide.
With this Isaiah scripture it is harder for me to get my brain wrapped around your interpretation. I kind of see it possibly, maybe (your barren part for example). And I am one who believes polygamy is adultery in God's eyes. A simpler interpretation for me might be that maybe the 7 women were competing for the man. Perhaps they just wanted to be the one he chose. A shortage of men because of war. Just a thought! 🙂 Isaiah symbolism, similar to parables, we know has different levels of interpretations. I will have to ponder on it for a while.
7 men to one woman happened when JS asked certain men to be financial caretakers especially because of bad federal laws inhibitiing women's ownership of property.
I’m commenting on that profile picture you showed at the start.. as a male it reminds me of the evil days of my own life before I became a follower of Christ.. I am speaking as a man of the world now.. because it is an image of the world.. and it is the sexual desires that this man has in his heart.. I would say he is a regular watcher of pornography.. and his desires are growing.. and evil is in the dark corners of the hearts of men like this.. they are on the edge of trying to act it out.. which leads to greater evil.. I have seen this face of wickedness before… that is all I could see when you showed that image.. I am grateful for the saviour of the world.. who came to redeem a lost soul..
7 churches woud take hold of the Name of Christ/take the Lord's name in vane... as they teach their own doctrines/ways.... IN symbolic scripture, churches are often equated as women...
After carefully read in Isaiah 3,4,5 with footnotes I'm leaning towards the timing to be before Christ was born and even after he died. It looks like events from the past.... just thinking out loud. There are a lot of interesting foot notes at the end of chapter 3 that changed my mind about this 7 women event taking place in the last days. The only reference to it being latter day millenium timing is only in the chapter heading for chapter 4. Correct me if there is evidence ce otherwise. At a quick reading that is how it is appearing to me.
hey sister just found your channel , Thank God for allowing you to cover this … I definitely need more understanding as well, do you believe Polygamy is something to be practiced for today age?
In regards to the women/churches… I have one other thought here… in the end times, the pure in heart finally do discover their reproach, barrenness, and lack of spiritual fruit (themselves not having been begotten by the spirit), they may finally approach the bridegroom humbly. Their offer in 4:1 that they would even produce their own bread and apparel just to be called by the bridegroom’s name seems VERY SIMILAR to other such humble offers… like the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:22-28 who would be satisfied with just the scraps of the master’s table (like a dog)…. Or the returned prodigal don who would be content to be a servant just to be allowed back at his father’s house…. Perhaps their offer is one such humble one… I also do like your interpretation (which accurately describes most of those in the churches) BUT since Zion seems to begin being redeemed in the very next verse (4:2), perhaps this is describing a repentant remnant???
Interesting. I like your thoughts. It is hard for me to understand how a church that is truly of Christ would be independent of Christ, but I do see your insight about the possibility of repentance. It is all good to think about.
@@MichelleBStone right. I totally see it that way too. Luke 18, the Pharisee was doing all the things and was “self sufficient” but knew not the Lord…. The Publican, did everything inadequately - BUT finally came to a place where he knew he wasn’t worthy… but it was that humility itself that made him ready… So are the “women” in Isaiah 4:1 more like the Pharisee or the publican in their offer to the bridegroom??? I don’t know for sure…. But that’s why I say PERHAPS there’s another layer…. That in their recognition of their inadequacy, they make an inadequate, even inappropriate, but still “preparatory” offer…. Which ultimately leads to them being accepted by the bridegroom…. Idk
@@cab9191 okay, I totally see what you are saying. That is definitely a possible way to think about it. I think you've threaded the needle between lack of dependence on Christ and the beginning of repentance and blessings as well as possible.
Thank you. I love how more truth is coming out as people are awakening to our awful situation. I think polygamy is wrong certainly, however I think this verse is literal. Polygamy will come back and essentially already has. Zion will be contrasted by a people living all the laws of God vs a people who are perverting all the laws of God. God is preparing his people to recognize and know truth when it is presented to them.
Love this comment! Isn't Polygamy "back" when the church still accepts it? And teaches that Abraham was righteous as well as Jacob in taking more than one wife. Not to 'dis Abraham, but didn't he lie to Pharoah about Sarah, instead of trusting God to protect them? And not to 'dis Jacob, but wasn't he fooled by his father-in-law in taking Leah to wife....was he so seriously drunk his wedding night he couldn't tell the difference--that's messed up too! The beauty of the old testament is showing how these "natural men" BECAME born again in Christ--even receiving new names. I think putting any of these prophets and patriarchs on a pedestal is what got the Jews in trouble in Jesus' day (and justified their own adultery). Jesus came to FIX the errors and do our FATHER's business--and he RE-taught how to live kindly with women, with HONESTLY, with integrity. GOD IS THE ONLY ONE to put on a Divine Pedestal!!
Here is another point of view from the Isaiah Institute translation and commentary: "Isaiah 4:1 Seven women will take hold of one man in that day, and say, We will eat our own food, wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name- take away our reproach! Because so many men are killed in the great war (Isaiah 3:25-26), a disproportionate number of women survives “in that day”-Jehovah’s Day of Judgment. Another reason may be that in general women are more righteous than men, perhaps even by a ratio of seven to one. In contrast to the flirting women we saw previously (Isaiah 3:16-24), these women are under no covenant curse, having prepared a sufficiency of food and clothing in anticipation of the evil time (cf. Isaiah 3:10). They consider it a “reproach” not to raise their own families, and they appeal to the men who remain to marry them." Basically this verse can be interpreted to mean that there will be more righteous woman who survive the day of judgement. The righteous women will desire to marry and have children. To imply that polygamy will result isn't based on what Isaiah wrote and is simply speculative. As with most of Isaiah's prophecies there can be many levels of interpretation and fulfillment. I think this interpretation is a good starting point and would be more prudent because it uses the context of the previous chapter as well as key words and concepts that are verifiable in other parts of Isaiah. Many people speculate when they attempt to interpret Isaiah because they have not been taught how to truly search Isaiah's words and don't have the keys to understand it. Here is another interesting tidbit: 1 Nephi 3:7 "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." If polygamy was actually commanded by God then according to Nephi God would have provided a way to keep the commandment. Anyone who believes that plural marriage was commanded by God has to deny Nephi's promise because there was nothing but opposition and covenant curses doled out to those who practiced it and claimed God commanded it.
I completely agree with your last point, but this is one area where I very much disagree with Avraham Gileadi. I studied with him for a while and loved his insights, but when he started to talk about women I felt like he was way off base
@@MichelleBStone That is interesting. I know he isn't afraid to go contrary to the mainstream church narrative. I'd love to know more about what you believe he has wrong about women based on his Isaiah commentary. I haven't come across anything that is pro polygamy from him but I haven't read all of his books. From watching your videos I'd say you're not the type to throw out the baby with the bathwater so hopefully you haven't done that with Avraham over the discrepancies between your views on women.
@@lorenpedro oh not at all. I have immense appreciation and admiration for Avraham. I just don't feel like he has as much insight into the topic of women's identity and purpose as I do (being a woman and all) 😉 Unless he has changed his mind recently he does believe in polygamy (that Jesus had multiple wives.) Obviously I do not agree. When he talks about women's role it doesn't resonate with me at. But those are really the only things I've heard him say that I don't agree with.
So, we’re to think that instead of prophesying of literal polygamy, Isaiah 4:1 is using seven women taking hold of one man (in polygamy) symbolically to represent Jesus as a symbolic polygamist with his wives (the churches)? Interesting idea, but it seems to have other issues. I think that the literal interpretation might be the true one. Most men (of Jerusalem) die in the war, and the women that are left want to have children, as childlessness is their reproach. They want this so bad they’re willing to give up what would be the normal duty of marital support from the husband. But like you said, as soon as the situation is over, no one else has motivation to practice it. Then the resurrection happens, in which according to Jesus there is no marriage. So polygamy here doesn’t gain you any browny points in the age to come. And monogamy here is still God’s ideal plan for humanity.
@@MichelleBStone Well, to be honest, yes. It had never occurred to me otherwise until I watched your video. I got into Isaiah pretty heavy in the mid 90s from reading Abraham Gileadi’s books. I learned a lot from him, but I see things somewhat different now. I try to understand how the original hearers would have understood prophecy and how understanding changed over time. When God promised David to make him a “house” and establish his throne forever, nobody at the time would have thought it referred to a singular descendant. But as time continued on this idea is picked up by the later prophets and Jews realized that the original passages could be read that way. This was especially true several hundred years after the David’s dynasty had ended during the Roman subjugation. I’ve come to see prophecy as most often simple. Funny, but back in the 80s girls had so much hair spray that I thought that would probably be the reason they would be bald after it caught fire. Not saying I literally believe that now but the general thrust of the passage is that there is a worldly element among God’s people that he will purge. Most men die in the war but women are renewed. It makes sense to me. But it’s entirely possible that there was an ancient fulfillment as well and I’m just not aware of it. The passage about the prophet and priest erring in vision hit me very hard some time ago. I believe that God’s people are among all denominations and they’re going to go through a tribulation that will end with the 2nd coming and the gathering of Israel. Ezekiel 34 and Isaiah 11 will be fulfilled. Bless.
I never considered Isaiah 4:1 talking about polygamy. 🤪 Just that alot of men would be dead from the wars. That picture you showed could symbolize that i guess, but if some guy is fantasizing about having those women thats just sick. So much lust. 😔 The biggest thing that really hit home for me with these scriptures is that Isaiah was talking about us, in The Church. There is no shortage of "tinkling" going on in addition to ignoring the poor. I try not to get discouraged about it. I know that The Church is still accomplishing the goal of leading me to Christ, and I am thankful that many members are trying to be led to do the same also. Im trying not to fret over the ways we have been condemned. I know you mentioned thay the temple has been perverted in some ways. Id love to know how you think this is the case.
Calling it "Mormon polygamy" makes you look like an anti-church website. Which I don't think you want. As President Nelson made it clear, we are not "Mormons." I would say "plural marriage in early church history" instead.
I am definitely not anti-church, but I don't like the word games, and I don't agree with our focus on "follow the prophet." I have been a "Mormon" my entire life. I remember President Hinckley rejecting President Nelson's previous attempt to change the name of the church (look up the talk, "Mormon means more good.") My mom wrote a song called "I'm a Mormon" that was sung for decades. The earliest primary songbook included "A Mormon Boy." Not to mention the entire "Meet the Mormons" campaign. We could go on and on. I do not at all believe that saying "Mormon" is a victory for Satan. I think it was unfortunate to claim that. But in any case, when polygamy was being practiced, the people very happily went by the name Mormon, and we don't practice it anymore, so it is more accurate to call it Mormon polygamy.
I was adopted by Mormons when I was 9 years old. Well, years later, my parents left the LDS Church before I left the church. At that time, this confused me. They convinced me that the church "was true". But then, they decided to leave it? However, they didn't push me to leave the LDS church. They just told me that they would be there if I wanted to ask any questions. Well, my mom was a Baptist before she joined the church, and she joined believing that the LDS church worshipped Jesus Christ. When I was 14/15, she found out that it did not. I also had many questions, myself, on beliefs that did not make any sense to me. As a "child" I believed in Jesus Christ, because my first foster parents taught me about Him after I threatened to beat Him up if some of the neighborhood kids did what they promised and they got Him after me (I never heard of Him. I thought he was some kid on the block...I was like 7-years old). Well, I decided to join the LDS church when I was 9-years old. As I grew older, some of their doctrine did not make sense to me. One question that I had was if that God Almighty was once a man on some other world who worshipped "His" own god and if His own god did the same, who is the original "God". Their answer would always be, "You'll find out when you die and ask God this question." Uh, which "God" would I be asking this question to? My other main issue would be that, during our sacrament service, they hardly ever (IF ever) talked about the Bible or what any prophet "in the Bible" said. It would be that way in Sunday school classes, too. All they ever talked about was what Joseph Smith said or what any other Mormon "prophet" said. This wasn't just the LDS church in my home town in Texas. I was a military brat. It was this way in the LDS churches that I went to in other states. Well, I left the LDS church in when I was 21/22 after I joined the military. The fact that Mormons are now calling themselves Christians is perplexing since we (when I was a Mormon) thought that Christians were foolish. WE didn't think that Christians would go to "Outer Darkness (Hell)". We just thought that they would go to the two lesser kingdoms which were nice but not as nice as the Celestial Kingdom where "the righteous/really good Mormons" will become "gods" to create worlds to rule over after they make LOTS of babies with their goddess, Mormon wife/maybe even wives. If you are a Mormon and you are currently reading this, just know this. You CANNOT be a Christian and believe that one day you can become "a god". There is only one God, and there will ALWAYS only be One god. You WILL NEVER be a god. This is complete truth. You will either serve God Almighty (the Trinity) in heaven or suffer on torment for all eternity. There is no middle choice. I pray that God Almighty allows me to serve Him for all eternity. There is also only one way to the Bema Seat, and that is ONLY through Jesus Christ. You cannot be baptized "into the Celestial Kingdom" or into "any" Heaven once you have already died. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Jesus Christ, "Himself", said that once you die, there is no going back. So, who are you going to believe? Will you believe your creator or will you believe some puny man named Josheph Smith? You cannot be a Christian and believe the opposite of what Jesus Christ said. So, stop it with the lying. And no, Joseph Smith is NOT going back down to Hell "from Heaven" to rescue his wife when this is all over. That is impossible for SO many reasons. Jesus Christ never lies (or "bends the truth") is just one of the reasons. And the Holy Bible is the true word of God Almighty, NOT that pagan Book of Mormon or any other of the pagan books (Pearl of Great Price, and so on) from that pagan church.
I appreciate that that was your experience, and I am very sad to hear it. I agree that there are problems with all the views you share. The Mormonism you share is not the Mormonism I recognize and certainly not the Mormonism I in any way embrace. I was born and raised in the church and I was always taught to worship, follow, love, and serve Jesus, and that one of the best ways I can do that is by loving and serving my fellow man. I have recognized many of the problems that you discuss. I have been deeply deeply troubled for years that we focus so much on the teachings of LDS prophets and not nearly enough in the scriptures. Fortunately, there are many others who feel the same way and I have always had associations where we do things differently. There is a very troubling primary song in my church called, "Follow the Prophet." I never wanted my children to sing that. I taught them to loudly sing, "Follow the Savior" instead, which they always did. You do have some valid criticisms of parts of my church, but there is much more to my church than just the parts you justifiably object to. I cannot speak for others in my religion, and I admit that I may not be in the minority, but I fully strive to worship and follow my Savior, Jesus Christ. I hope that you will not judge all members of my church so harshly. Any church can be ripped apart for many reasons. Please take people in any group, organization, or religion one by one as individuals. And, while I do share many of your theological concerns and do not hold to those ideas, I must also say that so many members of the church that I live among and worship alongside are truly some of the most loving, Christlike, humble, inspired, giving, and virtuous people on Earth. I am glad to know that there are such good, Christlike people everywhere. I only hope I am one of them.
@@MichelleBStone I am not sad at all. Why should I be sad that Jesus Christ saved me? And the Mormonism that I just shared was the same, exact Mormonism that was going on in every state, including Utah, in the 1980s and the 1990s. The members in my church went to the same temples in Utah that every other Mormon (except for that off branch church that "we" refused to acknowledge). This wasn't just some "off branch" Mormonism church that I went to. I believe that it's safe to say that I was part of this church before you became part of it. I've known about this doctrine for a very long time. Now, if they have changed the doctrine, why would they really need to do that if they thought that the original Mormon doctrine was really true? Wouldn't you think that the LSU church would stick to their guns? However, say that the original doctrine was wrong. What's to keep the new doctrine from being wrong, too? FYI: According to the prophets of the Old Testament and the apostles to the New Testament, there is only ONE temple that God has EVER recognized, and that one is currently destroyed. It will be rebuilt, and it will be in Jerusalem. When that happens, the Tribulation will begin, and God's wrath will be poured on the Earth. I now see these Mormon temples as sacrilegious a sin against God Almighty, Himself. Read the Old Testament of the Bible and read the New Testament in the Bible. If you do, you will realize that there is only ONE temple that God recognizes. Just do that one thing FOR YOURSELF. Question: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh? The reason why I ask is because this is exactly what Jesus Christ confirmed and why the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus Christ so badly. This is why Jesus Christ; God Almighty was sacrificed (well, not just for that one reason but for why the Pharisees thought He had to die). To say otherwise would be the same as refusing to accept the sacrifice that God Almighty made, Himself. That's if you believe in the Bible, that is. READ AND STUDY THE NEW TESTAMENT. Then, compare it to your doctrine. What I say is not my opinion. This is what Jesus Christ said, Himself. Question 2: You DO know that Jesus Christ is the ONLY path to salvation, don't you (John 14:6-there is MUCH more than that one verse that confirms this fact)? That's if you believe in the Bible. Do you? Now, I DO know that Joseph Smith's main argument is that King's James version of the Bible was changed over time and time again. So, he prayed, and the Angel Moroni showed up and showed him where these "Golden Plates" were at. First of all, have you looked at Joseph Smith's first editions to the Book of Mormon which were full of misspellings and grammar errors? Go ahead and search for his first editions. I dare you. When you do, answer me this. He used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Golden Plates so that God could tell him the meaning, right? So, God cannot spell, and He is terrible with His grammar? Oh, and you do know that the Urim and Thummim and the epod were NOT used by the High Priest and King David to translate ANYTHING, don't you? It was used to ask God Almighty if they should attack a city or not (or if they should do something else or not). The answer was either a yes or a no EVERYTIME they used it. So, how would Joseph Smith be able to translate a whole book if the answer was either just a yes or a no? Do you know how long it would have taken to translate these "supposed" plates? They would still be trying to get the first book/chapter done, today. Example: I dare you to buy a German book written in Deutsch (or whatever language that you CAN'T speak), get the German author, and attempt to translate his book with this German author only being able to answer yes or no. You get to ask as many questions as possible. I'll wait here when you get it done. Second of all, if you really believe in the Bible at all AND if you have actually studied the Bible, you would know that men can never become Angels. Angels can never become men. Angels and humans are literally two different species. That's like saying that a prophet died and returned back as a horse to give Mr. Smith the plates. Do you believe that you can become a horse after you die? Would you even want that? Finally, if the Bible was really a lie or mistake, why would the LDS church have anything to do with it? And why would God Almighty, Himself, allow this lie to go on for thousands of years until Mr. Smith came around asking questions? Don't get me wrong, there ARE many "Christian" churches that teach lies. They even pervert the Bible to point to their false teachings. However, Jesus, Himself, said that this would happen. He said that His word would be twisted by false prophets. That's why we have to KNOW and understand the words in the Bible. This heresy is not the fault of the Bible. I dare say that it is the fault of men who refuse to study Gods words in the Bible. Oh, and the Dead Sea Scrolls literally proved Josheph Smith's theory about the Bible wrong. And Israel is in Israel, NOT in Missouri. The fact the Josheph Smith and the LDS church would claim Missouri as "the new" Israel would have been really comical if it wasn't so sad. I can go on and on about the LDS church and the lies. Of course, this will be the last time that I speak on here. As for your subject, God may have allowed polygamy to happen, but He has always presented monogamy as the plan that conforms most closely to His ideal for marriage. Genesis 2:24, Deuteronomy 17:14-20, 1 Kings 11:3-4, 1 Timothy 3:2, Titus 1:6, Ephesians 5:22-33, Colossians 3:18-19
I left Mormonism 10 years ago. It wasn’t til 2 years ago I compared theology of the so called gospel of Mormonism to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I had the born again experience and am saddened to hear this well meaning gal hope that we can “qualify to be in his presence”. The new covenant is the temple covenants and they have nothing to do with Jesus in the Mormon temple. 😞 I do like her enthusiasm against polygamy and the false Mormon prophets.
@@dm7876 Hmm, I wonder if we are talking past each other. I feel like you might not understand what I meant by that statement. The scriptures are filled with accounts of people being brought into the presence of God. I believe that is what the Savior came to teach us and to make possible. The fall took mankind out of the presence of God. Through Christ, we can overcome the spiritual and physical effects of the fall (spiritual and eventually even physical death) by being brought back into the presence of God. I believe the scriptures make it clear that we can seek these blessings in this life. I respect that others disagree, but I don't understand why this would seem contrary your understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
@@MichelleBStone I confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, and I believe, WITH ALL MY HEART, that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Also, Jesus, God Almighty, and the Holy Spirit are one. The Trinity has been one since the beginning. There was NOTHING and NOONE before the Trinity. Also, since man would instantly die if they ever saw God's face, while in their mortal body on Earth, I strongly believe that this was 'a' main reason why it was Jesus (God in Human form) Who came down onto the Earth to be born by Marry so that He can be sacrificed so that all believers will be saved. If God Almighty, in His Heavenly form and not His human form, would have came down on Earth, EVERY MORTAL would have died as soon as they saw His face. Also, Jesus was NEVER Satan's brother. How can Satan be the brother if our Creator? It is impossible. This lie, that 'Jesus Christ is Satan's brother', is an abomination. Someone WILL pay dearly for that lie. Satan is the created. He tried to set his seat above our Creator. This is why he and his followers (1/3 of the angels) are currently in the 1st, and 2nd Heavens, right now. Sometimes, they might find themselves in the 3rd Heavens, but ONLY when God commands them to come (They STILL bow down to Him whether they want to or not). Their visit at the Home of God WILL forever end before or 'when' the rapture happens. NO, they ARE NOT saved and in Heaven with all the righteous. They are either on Earth, in space, or at the Home of God 'when called upon BY GOD'. Earth is the 1st Heaven. Outer pace is the 2nd Heaven. And the Home of God is the 3rd Heaven. The home of God IS NOT that stupid, 'pretend' planet called Kolob. There is no such planet. Also, the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st Heavens are NOT the 'Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the Telestial Kingdom'. Those pretend kingdoms were made up by Joseph Smith and crew. Oh, and Satan and the 1/3rd angels that he took with him are also NOT in Hades with pitch forks to poke at the damned. They do not want to be there any more than the damned want to be there. Proof? (Matthew 8:28-34 or Mark 5:1-20) The Holy Bible is what you need to be studying for salvation. All other books are GARBAGE. Stick with just the Holy Bible.
I've always associated this scripture with the women who act and dress wantonly. I've watched those who do not have pure intentions as they interact with young men around them, believing that if they come across as sexy they will somehow be more desirable.
2 Esdras 16:33 and women will mourn having no husband's 😏 ........................ Lol maybe it is literally gonna happen where 7 woman will want to be with 1 man because there's going to be a lack of men in the end of wars.
Most women can handle widowhood or singleness if need be. There have been many times in history when war has decimated male populations, recently the two world wars in England. The people didn't feel the need to resort to polygamy. It seems to me that polygamy always causes far more problems than it solves.
@@MichelleBStone ruclips.net/video/1j6RJyfuVDY/видео.html lol ok if you say so but I insist you watch this video ☺️ and btw you can see wars happening in europe with ukraine and Russia 😏
@@MichelleBStone lol even the lord says this time woman will need a man like never before it says there in that verse lol sooooo 😏 we gonna find out when all hell breaks loose......and it's coming 😂
@@ELW-1995 if you honestly believe "it's coming," why are you laughing about it? And why do you choose to take this one out of context verse of Isaiah literally? Have you studied the rest of Isaiah? Do you take it all literally? The people of Limhi lost nearly all of their men in their battles with the Lamanites. The kings solution: "that every man should impart to the support of the widows and their children, that they might not perish with hunger." The exact situation has happened many times, including in the book of Mormon. Thinking polygamy is the best solution is just so strange. If somehow women were killed, would you think polyandry were the solution? For example, in China, due to the one child policy and the infanticide of girls it caused, men far outnumber women. So, should seven men cling to one women?
@@MichelleBStone it's funny because it's going to happen it's ridiculously I know but then again what most of us men are going through is hell and now it's payback time for what most of these women did to us in this generation. But overall will see for sure in that day. In china they don't care about the one child policy because they are growing fast and now in china they are now sending there people everywhere globally so that's been taken care of.but look will see soon enough
Here are a few of the reasons why I have embraced and hold sacred our Latter-day Saint heritage of Plural Marriage. In the Bible, we read of a Holy man named Abraham who is a faithful friend of God and kept all of His commandments. Abraham was blessed by God to have a plurality of wives and an unbreakable promise of endless posterity. He had a grandson named Jacob who had four wives and from those four wives he had 12 sons. These wives are spoken of very highly by God As honrable and virtuous women. These did build the House of Israel. Jacob-like Abraham- was a man of God. His 12 sons by these four wives became princes, heads of tribes, patriarchs, whose “names had in everlasting remembrance to all generations.” God even told Abraham that he would make him the father of many nations, and that in him and his seed all the nations and kindreds of the earth should be blessed. The law of plural marriage was even perpetuated and sanctioned in the law of Moses. most importantly, God only makes Covenants with the House of Israel. The entire purpose of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Prophesied mission of Joseph Smith is to gather ISRAEL In order to be saved, we must become-either by birthright lineage or adoption members of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’s family. These polygamists stand at the head of the Kingdom of God. God even said to Abraham: “And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse them thee, and in thee shall ALL the families of the earth be blessed”. With the scriptures before me, I could never find it in my heart to reject the heavenly vision which has restored to man the fullness of the gospel or the latter-day Propehts and apostles including Brigham Young merely because the restoration included the ancient law of plural marriage and of family organization.
I recently visited your page LDS Energy Healing Exposed. I have worked as a family counselor for years. There are serious red flags regarding the individuals you obsess about. This polygamy fetish, I see how consuming it is for you. If you need somebody to talk to, there are resources.
@@murray13thwardreliefsociet6 agreed she definitely needs some help. Hope she gets it soon. She is obsessed with Phil Davis and Justin Griffin very unhealthy to herself and her family. It seems like she’s promoting polyandry and not polygamy. Just like Scientology I hear they are really into that stuff.
Hi Cameron. If you are sincerely wanting to have credibility and influence, I sincerely recommend listening to the previous episodes, particularly (based on your comment) Episode 6, Abraham's Polygamy. But honestly, the episodes on the Doctrine and Covenants, the emergence of 132, and the truth of Jacob 2:30, as well as polygamy in the Book of Mormon, are also all important. I think it would be very good for you to at least understand why people of good faith strongly disagree with you, especially if you wish to have any ability to be persuasive. Of course, you are free to continue to believe whatever seems most true to you. But if you do desire truth, it is important to at least understand what it is that you believe and why, and to see how it stands up to honest and sincere scrutiny.
@@MichelleBStone I think it’s interesting that you think that I can be persuaded to your interpretation of scripture. I am very familiar with all your arguments as they are IDENTICAL to the RLDS narrative that had been around since 1860. Their lies have already been debunked. All you are doing in your podcast is telling the same old repacked lied that have already been told. It is nothing original. And it’s the same lies being told by the Doctrine of Christ movement that I see you have become very sympathetic to, I have a testimony of plural marriage because it born through the power of the Holy Ghost. For this reason, I stand by this truth and by those Holy and virtuous women of the Restoration who also received their testimonies from the tongues of angels. So you can twist, distort, and wrest the scriptures to your own destruction but I won’t be going along for the ride with you .
Such nonsense people.... "my interpretation of all these myths are the true interpretations, therefore; polygamy defiles this building we call a temple." This whole podcast can be summarized as ; "I don't like the fact that some of you guys read these mythical books and have decided that polygamy is required, so you are all under condem-nation" .... and I testify of these things in the name of a Purple Turtle AMEN
... and after you're done dissecting these mythical texts, you can move on to Harry Potter or some other text and attempt to determine the correct interpretation....
Hmmm, interesting idea. I guess I would probably need to read them first. May I ask why in the world you took the time to listen if you find the entire Bible nothing but laughable and ridiculous?
Isaiah 4:1 isn’t the main scripture to justify polygamy. And even if it were you have wrested this scripture and applied your own interpretation. The Lord gave a revelation and those faithful Saints who heard the voice of the shepherd obeyed God. In order to deny plural marriage , you have to believe that the women of the Restoration were all liars. I don’t believe that. I have seen their fruits and have read their testimonies. These were faithful women of the highest honor. Elizabeth Ann Whitney-who was a pure and holy woman- wrote “It was during this time that Joseph received the revelation concerning plural marriage; also concerning the ordinances of the house of the Lord. He had been strictly charged, by the angel who committed these precious things into his keeping, that he should only reveal them to such ones as were pure, and full of integrity to the truth , and worthy and capable of being entrusted with divine messages; that to spread them abroad would only be like casting pearls before swine; and that the most profound secreasy was to be maintained, until the Lord saw fit to make it known publicly through his servants.” Elizabeth Ann Whitney was the first mother of the Restoration to give consent for her daughter Sarah to be sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the celestial order of marriage. She stands as a witness to the truth. These women are TESTATORS to our generation. They were entrusted with special manifestations and visions of the glories of eternity. The Lord revealed to these women his power and Glory. Their hearts were comforted and their faith was made perfect! When persecution arose these women suffered untold pain had sorrow but they never flinched, they never wavered. They bore the crosses of the world and like Abraham made sacrifices sufficient for exaltation. Those who deny that Jospeh Smlth taught and lived Plural marriage deny the restoration and the truth is not with them.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. We will absolutely do an episode on the testimonies of the women. It is so very complex. Please note, my focus is not on what Joseph or anyone else did in history, it is on what God teaches in the scriptures, in prophesy, in creation, and in the fruits of our actions and beliefs. Also, I have already addressed many of the other scriptures used to justify polygamy. I believe I said this was the main Old Testament scripture, which has been my experience. Addressing your argument, however, there are insurmountable problems with this claim. If we choose to believe the claims if the women we are left with the reality that Joseph Smith constantly blatantly lied and denied both his many wives and the revelations God had given to him. In your accusation of me, claiming I call these women liars (which I don't) you yourself are calling Joseph Smith a liar. This is just one reason why this argument cannot be used to prove the Godly origination of polygamy. I think studying the scriptures is a far better approach.
@@MichelleBStone You use straw man arguments. You claim Joseph Smlth denied polygamy but you intentionally leave out context and background. In every so called public denial Jospeh Smlth was being accused of either adultery or John C Bennett’s spiritual wifery. He was guilty of neither. And polygamy without authority is a sin and Jospeh and Hyrum taught that it was wrong to take unauthorized wives. Joseph Smlth NEVER denied entering into eternal family sealing Covenants with his wives. NOT once! Enemies of the Prophet Joseph Smith in Nauvoo also falsely equated plural marriage with the ‘spiritural wife system’ and ‘polygamy,’ and unjustly inferred that Joseph Smith was implicated in that practice. The Prophet abhorred and denounced those wicked counterfeit practices in public and in private. The revelation which the Prophet received, however, related to the contrasting subject of eternal plural marriage covenants, together with the keys and authority to seal marriage for eternity. And you have consistently denied the scriptures in the Old Testament on polygamy. Here are just a few. I purposely chose ones that are conveniently omitted from the discussion. Judah had three sons, Er, Onan, and Shelah. Er, having married Tamar, died, because of his wickedness, without a child. “And Judah said unto Onan, go in unto thy brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his,” and though he married her, he refused to “give seed to his brother. And the thing that he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also.” ( Gen 38:6-10) Shelah being too young to marry, Judah required Tamar to “remain a widow at her father’s house until Shelah was grown”. Thus we see that the Patriarchs were given the law of plurality of wives. Then we have Gideon in the Book of Judges who had multiple wives and God blessed him with 72 sons. It was Gideon that God chose to deliver Israel and to whom he gave revelations. When the principle of the plurality of wives was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord stated: "Verily I say unto you, that the wisdom of man in his fallen state knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my Holy Priesthood, but ye shall know when ye receive a fullness.” The Lord made clear that in our current fallen state, it is impossible for any of us to understand His purposes without having received a fullness of knowledge. To our own detriment, we allow modern culture to influence our perception, and we so often mistakenly associate marriage with Hollywood’s corrupted version of romance and sexual pleasure, warping our view of its divine and intended purpose. In order to overcome our prejudices surrounding the doctrine of plural marriage, we must make an appeal to heaven for understanding.
@@cameronsmith5786 there is a lot to respond to here. First, while it is true that Bennett and others were causing problems, I think your claim that Joseph never denied polygamy is a result of motivated reasoning far more than fact. For just one reason, plural wives, especially "celestial" plural wives are called wives. Among Joseph's many denials are multiple clear statements that he had only one wife. And there is much more. I included a link to several of his denials in one of the episode. To the claim that I am omitting scripture, I clearly specify that this episode is only on this one verse. The rest of the Old Testament will be covered in a future episode. The previous episodes speak to many of your claims and objections. Here's just one tidbit from episode 5 on the doctrine and covenants. Joseph Smith himself oversaw the compilation of both the 1835 and 1844 editions, which both included section 101, which was read aloud and unanimously supported by the entire church. That wasn't removed until 1876, which is when 132 was added. I think you might also find episode 7 on the emergence 132 interesting. I would welcome your feedback and objections. There are so many other issues as well. I really appreciate the discussion. I think it would be far more productive if you feel so inclined to watch the other episodes and continue to raise your objections. I am trying very hard to do the exact opposite of straw manning the ideas I used to hold. I have consistently looked for the very best arguments, which I them steel man as I engage with them. I continue to do that, because I believe that is the best way to find truth.
@ Cameron Smith When you say: "These were faithful women of the highest honor. " are you talking about such as the women who claimed to have had children from Joseph Smith. Are these the women you are talking about? The same ones who were proven wrong through DNA testing. This proves that these women were either dishonest or at the very least promiscuous. Maybe, you are talking about the trial to prove Joseph began polygamy in the Church, the U. S. Circuit Court, where the judge determined that there was not sufficient evidence presented to prove Joseph taught or practiced polygamy. The judge literally dismissed all of the women who testified, due to these women constantly contradicting themselves. Yes, these must be the faithful women you speak so highly of. Possibly you are speaking of Brigham Young's wives several of whom claimed to also be married to Joseph. It is interesting how one of his wives made a statement that she would say anything to keep a roof over her head, and food in her mouth since she was too old and tired to be kicked out of her home. This would in no way influence the narrative, right? Of course, there is one woman that you are forgetting, Emma Smith. She claimed her entire life that Joseph Smith taught against polygamy and never taught it in secret. Funny enough so did Joseph Smith, he also taught against it constantly. Joseph even stated that he taught harder doctrines publically than he ever taught in secret. So, either Joseph is a liar, perjurer, and a hypocrite or Brigham Young is, which is it?
This was THE episode for me. Thank you! Even as a little kid reading the Book of Mormon that verse has always haunted me. These past two years have been extremely excruciating (nothing due to the plandemic). I couldn't tell if God was preparing me to get ready for polygamy to return or if satan knew that it was a sore subject...either way, I was so beyond depressed about the topic that at times I just wanted to cease to exist if this was what lay in my future and in the eternities. It didn't help that people on facebook, whom I feel are some of the best people I know, hounded the fact that "you're not righteous enough if you don't accept this." Talk about confusing! Every time I sincerely tried to study it out and pray about it, this blanket of depression would come over me. Or when I would hear people say things like, "God loves you", I would immediately hear, "God loves you, but He's going to make you do polygamy." I distanced myself from God as far as I could possibly go. I couldn't understand how a loving God would have His daughters go through something so vile and have it be the rule to get to the highest degree of glory in the next life.
The burden became so great that I finally just had to lay it at God's feet. "Thy will be done... please help to to accept polygamy when the time comes." Fast forward a month later and I discovered your videos (thanks for a friend sharing it on her facebook page). I finally feel like there is sunshine in my soul! I can feel Gods love for me!! This HUGE weight has been lifted off of my heart and mind. I have never been so excited to let go of a false tradition! THANK YOU SO MUCH for taking the time to make these videos. May God continue to bless you for speaking His truth.
I think you're missing the point, I think ALMIGHTY GOD referred to the actual situation of our era or way of living(girls are so promiscuous and they don't want to commit to anybody) and there are many homosexuals and weirdos so as a result there will be 7 women to one man; So it is a future visualization of our way of living....
Thank you, Michelle, for doing these podcasts! I’ve had a very hard time feeling that God could love His daughters as much as His sons if He treated us and our feelings with so much disregard. I don’t want to be a part of a harem! I don’t want to be always considered “less than”. In my heart I cannot feel that my purpose is only to help my husband. I am an individual.
Anyway. I feel like this has taken a giant weight off of me. I can finally believe that God loves me because it’s like I now have permission to believe that polygamy is NOT of God. I’ve definitely thought so before, but it’s hard being at variance with the church I love. But now I don’t care. Natural men get things wrong all the time. (Just look at the Old Testament!) I’d much rather put my confidence in God than in mortal men.
Really love the symbolism and connection with the 7 churches, followed by the idea of claiming they are the Lord's and want His name or to use His name but as Isaiah said, this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men. Spot on.
This was the episode for me- this is exactly the point that my studies have led me to and the goal I have. It is not insane or unreachable to come into his presence. I appreciate your faithful, humble, approach Michelle. All these problems have led my family to disappointment In the church and distancing themselves from it as they feel deceived and the warnings and reproach for being deceived are so engrained- they have a great distaste. I am striving to bring myself to the point the Lord will tell me what I can do for them and the answer so far has been “seek first to know me then you will have the chance to show them what they can have along with you.” Since I love them so much, I do not feel angry or blaming toward them. I have my moments of feeling that toward our leaders for introducing this, sustaining it, and not disavowing it still to this day. If that would be enough, I’m not even sure. But other false teachings that led our people astray have been disavowed and retracted. So Im struggling with this and I felt you were very humble, patient and forgiving to say that you aren’t condemning those leaders for their role. Frankly, they seem pretty dishonest and I don’t know how to overcome that. It’s so painful! I love the church and want so bad not to be rash and walk away. But coming to realize this is so confusing. So Im grateful for your study and work on this and sharing it. Thank you.
Thank you for such a beautiful comment. I sincerely do understand the feelings you express. It is so painful to see loved ones leave, but it is compounded by the understanding that they are not solely responsible. The feeling people have of betrayal, or not being told the entire truth, are real and very painful. For me it is helpful to remember that our current leaders grew up in exactly the same ignorance that we all did, and being taught the same traditions. Now that the are old and set in their ways, feeling like they have the entire weight of the well-being of the church on their shoulders, I can only imagine how difficult it must be. Even though some of our current leaders are hard for me, I can honestly say that I wouldn't want their job. I always feel that honesty and transparency are best, but I understand that other people don't see it that way. I wish you the very best on our journey and toward your magnificent goal. I do know that God is eager for us to awaken to these promises and to patiently, humbly, and fervently pursue them, enduring to the end (meaning until the goal is accomplished -- not until death.)
So many of us feel the pain...however, as Michelle states below--as we have compassion on those who "seek" to lead the church, we can forgive "those who have trespassed against us"...literally when they said the Koolaide was "safe and effective"...I still am choosing to go to church, partake of the sacrament, fellowship and teach our 12 primary kids about Jesus--how to read the scriptures, and how to pray. Until I am taken out, I stay. Bless you!! I hope more of those who are Christ/God Centered stay!! And help build up the LORD's Zion among us!! I feel so strongly that it is Satan that divides and we NEED to gather together and be ready to do "house churches" when the despots insist we "buy and sell" with a chip in our forehead or wrist.... GOD BE WITH YOU and YOURS!!
Thank you for these videos I've watched every one! And, although I don't have the same depth and breadth of understanding of all the contexts as you have, I'm studying this topic (and others as they come in) and I'm learning much for myself.
I really appreciated all verses you referred to that spoke of 'the pure in heart'. Jacob singles out the pure in heart in his sermon as a contrast to those committing whoredoms in Jacob 3. The pure in heart from my understanding are those who are clean and chaste in their thoughts, motives and character. Thank you for making that connection with Zion.
Another little side note of something that I've found comforting is that when Jesus visits the Nephites, the record demonstrates that the people were monogamous. 3 Nephi 19:1
"And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ascended into heaven, the multitude did disperse, and every man did take his wife and his children and did return to his own home."
Thank you! I hadn't made those connections. Brilliant! Thank you for sharing.
Wonderful video as usual! Thank you for taking the time out of your busy schedule to makes these insightful points. I’m sure it is not easy! But I have benefited immensely from what you have shared and look forward to more.
I found you a couple of weeks ago Michelle. Your insight has changed me, my wife and how I think of my God. Thank you for your hard work, you're amazing.
Beautiful Michelle... thank you for sharing your insight on Isaiah 4:1. I feel your heart is true and your conviction to understand the truth in this topic is noble. I believe your interpretation of this is the best I have ever heard. I will adopt your interpretation, I loved it, thank you for sharing!
You quoted : “Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (New Testament | Matthew 7:21 - 23)
Inspired Version says: “Ye never knew me,” which puts the responsibility on each of us personally to really “know” the path and pattern of godliness and virtue by living it and becoming a manifestation of it, in thought, word, deed, beliefs and our feelings!
So, I've not finished watching this episode, but I wanted to share a meaning that "popped" into my head (it felt like a revelation) as I read that verse during scripture reading one night. Also, I'm a big believer in multiple fulfillments in scriptures, so it can have more than one interpretation. Here is the one that came to my mind: The 7 women are the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation (also keep in mind the church is the Bride) holding onto 1 man, Christ (the Bridegroom). EXCEPT they do NOT want to change the way they live. They only want to take on His name (profess His name) so they can be saved and their reproach removed.
Who would have known that that was the interpretation. Once explained, SO clear. I was so reluctant to change my church brain for new truth. Since watching the episode when you said "The Savior stayed in the Church but did not submit. . .have the courage to follow inspiration", /Episode 19, has freed me up to investigate. I have ten grown children 9 of whom are active in the church and I have been an example to them of church worthiness. It was gut wrenching to have to ever admit to them that I might become an excommunicated apostate. Now I can have my cake and eat it too.
Just an FYI, though I agree it doesn't really matter as Isaiah didn't write in chapters, Joseph Smith moved Isaiah 4:1 into Isaiah 3 and it is in there as Isaiah 3:27 in the JST. Joseph clearly saw this verse as belonging to chapter 3. 🙂
Thank you! I didn't know that. Wonderful to have that confirmation!
Thank you for sharing. I think I've heard this before-- that Joseph Smith moved that verse into the third chapter. I'm curious to know if you have a source for that. I'd be interested in reading it.
Thx Michelle. I liked the connection with “reproach.” Excellent insights there.
Loved the connections to Zion being those who see the Lord’s face through the Second Comforter, which experience only follows after the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost as you read in D&C 67:10, and as the temple indicates.
Would have liked to see more connection from verse 1 to the verses that follow it and not just the verses preceding it, because that is where we discover the full context of the verse. I struggle considering that the 7 women means all the churches of the world when the context both preceding and following that verse deals specifically with the Lord’s covenant people. Prior to the verse are the wicked ones of the covenant people, and following the verse are the righteous ones who are the fruit, or who bear fruit, or become the children of Christ (taking away the reproach of the bride of the bridegroom - the remaining daughters of the “church” or “churches” who have had the covenant extended to them, meaning the LDS churches).
Just my thoughts!
Excellent work on this!
I love your insights Dustin. So much to think about! Thank you for sharing.
This has been my favorite episode so far. Wonderful content! I look forward to more soon. Thanks for putting in the effort to be a student of the word and blessing our lives with the word given to you.
My favorite episode so far. Wonderful! The thought burning in my mind during this discussion is that the barren womb of the woman (the church(es)) represents a lack of those who are spiritually born again within her…. Those women in the end times clinging to one man (one who finally has power) are all the churches who are thus barren…. They are all fruitless… Yhey have all gone out of the way… They are all under a reproach of condemnation because they have forsaken the bridegroom…. They (the churches) have not produced sons and daughters of God who have been born of God because they have not hearkened to the doctrine of Christ.
And perhaps it’s a prophesy of a mighty servant who will come who will offer the pure in heart within the barren church(es) a way to finally be conceived and begotten spiritually and bear fruit.
To twist this beautiful symbolism to somehow justify polygamy surely has incurred the displeasure of God upon the Mormons… and our lack of fruit is evidence of it.
I love this. Thank you for stating it so beautifully.
I love this thought. Thanks for sharing!
@@crunchymamakat6656 thanks, it’s just the inspiration that came through the spirit thanks to the wonderful work Michelle is doing here on this channel…
My favorite one so far!! Thanks for sharing this! SO much insight that I needed!
This video was so refreshing! For the past four or so years I've been really frustrated with an apparent lack of Biblical literacy among the Saints. (This frustration came while taking excellent religion classes at BYU, doing my own apologetics research on Christianity in general, and comparing varieties of Christians thought with LDS thought.)
These literacy issues happen with Isaiah especially! I've never even considered that Isaiah 4:1 could be referring to polygamy, much less polygamy as a good thing, because the verse is obviously referring to a bad situation happening during a catastrophic time (even without the further symbolism you discussed in this video).
Another example is the phrase "ensign to the nations." That phrase is sometimes used positively but often used negatively in the Isaiah text. Sometimes it refers to the diaspora returning to Jerusalem during times of prosperity; but often it refers to the Lord bringing enemy nations to war against Israel and smite them because of their iniquity. Yet people in our church ONLY refer to that phrase in the positive sense. It just takes some reading of the surrounding verses and understanding the ancient context to see when that's not the case! I studied Isaiah for a semester-long project and made heavy use of Bible Gateway to compare different translations when I was confused about certain verses, and sometimes I found the meanings were completely different from what I'd been previously taught in our church.
Another example is the verse "I have graven thee in the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me." A seminary teacher taught me that the second half of that verse was the Lord saying "your walls of sin and stubbornness get in the way of my helping you, even though I care about you." While that interpretation is a profound one, the text makes far more sense when it's viewed as a parallel couplet with both halves saying the same thing. The walls are referring to the walls of Jerusalem. So basically, it's saying, "I'm always thinking about you; I'm always looking out for your good." Two symbolic ways of giving the same message.
Those are just some examples off the top of my head. We really need to improve our Biblical literacy (and Isaiah literacy) as a church and NOT read everything in the Bible through a 19th-century Utah lens. Those can be good and even accurate interpretations (like with "the desert blossoming as a rose" verse) but they are not the most prominent or even important meanings. Nephi taught us to liken the scriptures to ourselves, but that means looking at scriptures in their context to see how they can help us today, NOT changing the meaning to fit something the text isn't saying.
TL;DR: Knowing the historical context and meaning of the Bible and especially of Isaiah is important; I don't think the people of the church have enough Biblical literacy, in regards to polygamy or other topics.
I'm a literalist, too:) I've especially enjoyed studying Biblical cosmology this year. God is so good, and He's so close!
Love your interpretation! Thank you for your wisdom and for opening my eyes!! Watching in order!
Thank you for the clarity this brought! I had worked out that Christ is the only one who can take away reproach, but I could not figure out why they would eat their own bread and wear their own apparel. Because I had it in the context that if they were taking upon Christ's name, they were repentant.
The additional thought I had along with your correlation of bread and apparel to covenants is this:
Unless you become like a little child ye shall in nowise inherit the kingdom.
And little children DEFINITELY do NOT eat their own bread and wear their own clothing. They would rely wholly upon Him who is mighty to save. 🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Also I'm all for geeking out over Isaiah! When it opens up to us it is such a feast!
Love this one too! I think your spot on on your interpretation of this scripture.
Love this one too! All of these episodes are so good. Thank you for that better understanding of the symbolism. :)
Can't wait for your next videos! Thank you once more :)
Thanks for your insight. Around the 18 minute area you mentioned that the only place in the Book of Mormon where the Lord gives us a command is in relation to studying Isaiah.
Ether chapter 8 popped into my head because this is where God Commands us to awaken to our awful situation.
With Ether ch 8 being one of my favorite chapters, I had supposed that the command there was uniquely isolated... Until I did a search for the word command.
The most common use of the word 'command' in the Book of Mormon is where the Lord is commanding a specific individual, but sometimes his command applies to all of us.
Thank you for bringing this up so I can clarify. I don't think I explained what I meant very well. I was speaking specifically of Jesus's appearance to the Nephites. In 3 Nephi 23:1 Jesus says, "And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah." I believe this is the only official commandment that Jesus gave in person in the Book of Mormon. Of course the Book of Mormon is filled with all kinds of commandments, including Jacob 2 which commands that men should only have one wife. But I can't find another place where Jesus says, "a commandment I give unto you" which is a very important phrase considering that Jesus said the same words to teach us to "love one another as I have loved you." I apologize for not being more clear. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
I recently had a thought about that particular verse--Isaiah 4:1, which went along the lines of "what if that prophecy was never about something positive happening," as I had always assumed it must have meant? I'm not sure where I got the idea that it was a good thing for seven women to take hold of one man, but I can now see it from a different perspective. It's like how Moroni prophesied about the days when the Book of Mormon record would come forth where a lot of negative things will be going on. Maybe Isaiah was just simply stating a fact and I for some reason viewed this particular prophesy as rosy because it was Isaiah who recorded it, and he is "the prophet," right? (And I also once had an accepting view of polygamy as well.) His record is so vital to the Restoration that parts of it were re-recorded in the Book of Mormon, and even the Lord Himself points out how great Isaiah's words are and that we should study them. But I now definitely am considering that the prophesy was not foretelling of something wonderful. I will have to spend a lot of time studying this out and praying about.
Thanks
Thanks!
Thank you! ❤️❤️❤️
You are very welcome. I found your RUclips channel a couple weeks ago and I’ve now watched the first 18 episode in order. I live in Highland Utah and I have 8 kids of my own so I can only imagine how much time you put into gathering all this information. When you mentioned that you needed help with simple things like just mopping the floor, I felt like grabbing my mop and coming over to do it for you just so that you could continue to put together these awesome videos. But it was easier just to send you some money to stay in the game. I look forward to learning a lot more and I’m sure I speak for thousands of people that say, we really do appreciate the content you provide.
With this Isaiah scripture it is harder for me to get my brain wrapped around your interpretation. I kind of see it possibly, maybe (your barren part for example). And I am one who believes polygamy is adultery in God's eyes. A simpler interpretation for me might be that maybe the 7 women were competing for the man. Perhaps they just wanted to be the one he chose. A shortage of men because of war. Just a thought! 🙂 Isaiah symbolism, similar to parables, we know has different levels of interpretations. I will have to ponder on it for a while.
This IS the episode for me!!! My new favorite scripture! Jeremiah 3134. Or a new list of favorite scriptures... Thank you!
7 men to one woman happened when JS asked certain men to be financial caretakers especially because of bad federal laws inhibitiing women's ownership of property.
I’m commenting on that profile picture you showed at the start.. as a male it reminds me of the evil days of my own life before I became a follower of Christ.. I am speaking as a man of the world now.. because it is an image of the world.. and it is the sexual desires that this man has in his heart.. I would say he is a regular watcher of pornography.. and his desires are growing.. and evil is in the dark corners of the hearts of men like this.. they are on the edge of trying to act it out.. which leads to greater evil.. I have seen this face of wickedness before… that is all I could see when you showed that image.. I am grateful for the saviour of the world.. who came to redeem a lost soul..
7 churches woud take hold of the Name of Christ/take the Lord's name in vane... as they teach their own doctrines/ways.... IN symbolic scripture, churches are often equated as women...
After carefully read in Isaiah 3,4,5 with footnotes I'm leaning towards the timing to be before Christ was born and even after he died. It looks like events from the past.... just thinking out loud. There are a lot of interesting foot notes at the end of chapter 3 that changed my mind about this 7 women event taking place in the last days. The only reference to it being latter day millenium timing is only in the chapter heading for chapter 4. Correct me if there is evidence ce otherwise. At a quick reading that is how it is appearing to me.
hey sister just found your channel , Thank God for allowing you to cover this … I definitely need more understanding as well,
do you believe Polygamy is something to be practiced for today age?
In regards to the women/churches… I have one other thought here… in the end times, the pure in heart finally do discover their reproach, barrenness, and lack of spiritual fruit (themselves not having been begotten by the spirit), they may finally approach the bridegroom humbly.
Their offer in 4:1 that they would even produce their own bread and apparel just to be called by the bridegroom’s name seems VERY SIMILAR to other such humble offers… like the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:22-28 who would be satisfied with just the scraps of the master’s table (like a dog)…. Or the returned prodigal don who would be content to be a servant just to be allowed back at his father’s house….
Perhaps their offer is one such humble one…
I also do like your interpretation (which accurately describes most of those in the churches) BUT since Zion seems to begin being redeemed in the very next verse (4:2), perhaps this is describing a repentant remnant???
Interesting. I like your thoughts. It is hard for me to understand how a church that is truly of Christ would be independent of Christ, but I do see your insight about the possibility of repentance. It is all good to think about.
@@MichelleBStone right. I totally see it that way too. Luke 18, the Pharisee was doing all the things and was “self sufficient” but knew not the Lord…. The Publican, did everything inadequately - BUT finally came to a place where he knew he wasn’t worthy… but it was that humility itself that made him ready…
So are the “women” in Isaiah 4:1 more like the Pharisee or the publican in their offer to the bridegroom???
I don’t know for sure…. But that’s why I say PERHAPS there’s another layer…. That in their recognition of their inadequacy, they make an inadequate, even inappropriate, but still “preparatory” offer…. Which ultimately leads to them being accepted by the bridegroom…. Idk
@@cab9191 okay, I totally see what you are saying. That is definitely a possible way to think about it. I think you've threaded the needle between lack of dependence on Christ and the beginning of repentance and blessings as well as possible.
Thank you. I love how more truth is coming out as people are awakening to our awful situation.
I think polygamy is wrong certainly, however I think this verse is literal. Polygamy will come back and essentially already has. Zion will be contrasted by a people living all the laws of God vs a people who are perverting all the laws of God.
God is preparing his people to recognize and know truth when it is presented to them.
Love this comment! Isn't Polygamy "back" when the church still accepts it? And teaches that Abraham was righteous as well as Jacob in taking more than one wife. Not to 'dis Abraham, but didn't he lie to Pharoah about Sarah, instead of trusting God to protect them? And not to 'dis Jacob, but wasn't he fooled by his father-in-law in taking Leah to wife....was he so seriously drunk his wedding night he couldn't tell the difference--that's messed up too! The beauty of the old testament is showing how these "natural men" BECAME born again in Christ--even receiving new names. I think putting any of these prophets and patriarchs on a pedestal is what got the Jews in trouble in Jesus' day (and justified their own adultery). Jesus came to FIX the errors and do our FATHER's business--and he RE-taught how to live kindly with women, with HONESTLY, with integrity. GOD IS THE ONLY ONE to put on a Divine Pedestal!!
@@kariec3197 Amen.
Here is another point of view from the Isaiah Institute translation and commentary:
"Isaiah 4:1
Seven women will take hold of one man in that day, and say, We will eat our own food, wear our own clothes, only let us be called by your name- take away our reproach!
Because so many men are killed in the great war (Isaiah 3:25-26), a disproportionate number of women survives “in that day”-Jehovah’s Day of Judgment. Another reason may be that in general women are more righteous than men, perhaps even by a ratio of seven to one. In contrast to the flirting women we saw previously (Isaiah 3:16-24), these women are under no covenant curse, having prepared a sufficiency of food and clothing in anticipation of the evil time (cf. Isaiah 3:10). They consider it a “reproach” not to raise their own families, and they appeal to the men who remain to marry them."
Basically this verse can be interpreted to mean that there will be more righteous woman who survive the day of judgement. The righteous women will desire to marry and have children. To imply that polygamy will result isn't based on what Isaiah wrote and is simply speculative. As with most of Isaiah's prophecies there can be many levels of interpretation and fulfillment. I think this interpretation is a good starting point and would be more prudent because it uses the context of the previous chapter as well as key words and concepts that are verifiable in other parts of Isaiah. Many people speculate when they attempt to interpret Isaiah because they have not been taught how to truly search Isaiah's words and don't have the keys to understand it.
Here is another interesting tidbit:
1 Nephi 3:7 "And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."
If polygamy was actually commanded by God then according to Nephi God would have provided a way to keep the commandment. Anyone who believes that plural marriage was commanded by God has to deny Nephi's promise because there was nothing but opposition and covenant curses doled out to those who practiced it and claimed God commanded it.
I completely agree with your last point, but this is one area where I very much disagree with Avraham Gileadi. I studied with him for a while and loved his insights, but when he started to talk about women I felt like he was way off base
@@MichelleBStone That is interesting. I know he isn't afraid to go contrary to the mainstream church narrative. I'd love to know more about what you believe he has wrong about women based on his Isaiah commentary. I haven't come across anything that is pro polygamy from him but I haven't read all of his books. From watching your videos I'd say you're not the type to throw out the baby with the bathwater so hopefully you haven't done that with Avraham over the discrepancies between your views on women.
@@lorenpedro oh not at all. I have immense appreciation and admiration for Avraham. I just don't feel like he has as much insight into the topic of women's identity and purpose as I do (being a woman and all) 😉
Unless he has changed his mind recently he does believe in polygamy (that Jesus had multiple wives.) Obviously I do not agree. When he talks about women's role it doesn't resonate with me at. But those are really the only things I've heard him say that I don't agree with.
So, we’re to think that instead of prophesying of literal polygamy, Isaiah 4:1 is using seven women taking hold of one man (in polygamy) symbolically to represent Jesus as a symbolic polygamist with his wives (the churches)? Interesting idea, but it seems to have other issues.
I think that the literal interpretation might be the true one. Most men (of Jerusalem) die in the war, and the women that are left want to have children, as childlessness is their reproach. They want this so bad they’re willing to give up what would be the normal duty of marital support from the husband. But like you said, as soon as the situation is over, no one else has motivation to practice it. Then the resurrection happens, in which according to Jesus there is no marriage. So polygamy here doesn’t gain you any browny points in the age to come. And monogamy here is still God’s ideal plan for humanity.
Interesting. Do you also read Isaiah 3 literally? You believe it is strictly talking about women's ornamentation?
@@MichelleBStone
Well, to be honest, yes. It had never occurred to me otherwise until I watched your video. I got into Isaiah pretty heavy in the mid 90s from reading Abraham Gileadi’s books. I learned a lot from him, but I see things somewhat different now. I try to understand how the original hearers would have understood prophecy and how understanding changed over time. When God promised David to make him a “house” and establish his throne forever, nobody at the time would have thought it referred to a singular descendant. But as time continued on this idea is picked up by the later prophets and Jews realized that the original passages could be read that way. This was especially true several hundred years after the David’s dynasty had ended during the Roman subjugation. I’ve come to see prophecy as most often simple. Funny, but back in the 80s girls had so much hair spray that I thought that would probably be the reason they would be bald after it caught fire. Not saying I literally believe that now but the general thrust of the passage is that there is a worldly element among God’s people that he will purge. Most men die in the war but women are renewed. It makes sense to me. But it’s entirely possible that there was an ancient fulfillment as well and I’m just not aware of it.
The passage about the prophet and priest erring in vision hit me very hard some time ago. I believe that God’s people are among all denominations and they’re going to go through a tribulation that will end with the 2nd coming and the gathering of Israel. Ezekiel 34 and Isaiah 11 will be fulfilled.
Bless.
I don't even OWN a wimple.
Thank-you for this video. This scripture was the last thread holding me to a false principle.
😂
I love your comments! I don't own a wimple either 😂
And I love when those final threads of falsehood are cut!
I never considered Isaiah 4:1 talking about polygamy. 🤪 Just that alot of men would be dead from the wars. That picture you showed could symbolize that i guess, but if some guy is fantasizing about having those women thats just sick. So much lust. 😔 The biggest thing that really hit home for me with these scriptures is that Isaiah was talking about us, in The Church. There is no shortage of "tinkling" going on in addition to ignoring the poor. I try not to get discouraged about it. I know that The Church is still accomplishing the goal of leading me to Christ, and I am thankful that many members are trying to be led to do the same also. Im trying not to fret over the ways we have been condemned. I know you mentioned thay the temple has been perverted in some ways. Id love to know how you think this is the case.
Calling it "Mormon polygamy" makes you look like an anti-church website. Which I don't think you want.
As President Nelson made it clear, we are not "Mormons."
I would say "plural marriage in early church history" instead.
I am definitely not anti-church, but I don't like the word games, and I don't agree with our focus on "follow the prophet." I have been a "Mormon" my entire life. I remember President Hinckley rejecting President Nelson's previous attempt to change the name of the church (look up the talk, "Mormon means more good.") My mom wrote a song called "I'm a Mormon" that was sung for decades. The earliest primary songbook included "A Mormon Boy." Not to mention the entire "Meet the Mormons" campaign. We could go on and on. I do not at all believe that saying "Mormon" is a victory for Satan. I think it was unfortunate to claim that. But in any case, when polygamy was being practiced, the people very happily went by the name Mormon, and we don't practice it anymore, so it is more accurate to call it Mormon polygamy.
I was adopted by Mormons when I was 9 years old. Well, years later, my parents left the LDS Church before I left the church. At that time, this confused me. They convinced me that the church "was true". But then, they decided to leave it? However, they didn't push me to leave the LDS church. They just told me that they would be there if I wanted to ask any questions. Well, my mom was a Baptist before she joined the church, and she joined believing that the LDS church worshipped Jesus Christ. When I was 14/15, she found out that it did not. I also had many questions, myself, on beliefs that did not make any sense to me. As a "child" I believed in Jesus Christ, because my first foster parents taught me about Him after I threatened to beat Him up if some of the neighborhood kids did what they promised and they got Him after me (I never heard of Him. I thought he was some kid on the block...I was like 7-years old). Well, I decided to join the LDS church when I was 9-years old. As I grew older, some of their doctrine did not make sense to me. One question that I had was if that God Almighty was once a man on some other world who worshipped "His" own god and if His own god did the same, who is the original "God". Their answer would always be, "You'll find out when you die and ask God this question." Uh, which "God" would I be asking this question to? My other main issue would be that, during our sacrament service, they hardly ever (IF ever) talked about the Bible or what any prophet "in the Bible" said. It would be that way in Sunday school classes, too. All they ever talked about was what Joseph Smith said or what any other Mormon "prophet" said. This wasn't just the LDS church in my home town in Texas. I was a military brat. It was this way in the LDS churches that I went to in other states.
Well, I left the LDS church in when I was 21/22 after I joined the military. The fact that Mormons are now calling themselves Christians is perplexing since we (when I was a Mormon) thought that Christians were foolish. WE didn't think that Christians would go to "Outer Darkness (Hell)". We just thought that they would go to the two lesser kingdoms which were nice but not as nice as the Celestial Kingdom where "the righteous/really good Mormons" will become "gods" to create worlds to rule over after they make LOTS of babies with their goddess, Mormon wife/maybe even wives. If you are a Mormon and you are currently reading this, just know this. You CANNOT be a Christian and believe that one day you can become "a god". There is only one God, and there will ALWAYS only be One god. You WILL NEVER be a god. This is complete truth. You will either serve God Almighty (the Trinity) in heaven or suffer on torment for all eternity. There is no middle choice. I pray that God Almighty allows me to serve Him for all eternity. There is also only one way to the Bema Seat, and that is ONLY through Jesus Christ. You cannot be baptized "into the Celestial Kingdom" or into "any" Heaven once you have already died. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Jesus Christ, "Himself", said that once you die, there is no going back. So, who are you going to believe? Will you believe your creator or will you believe some puny man named Josheph Smith? You cannot be a Christian and believe the opposite of what Jesus Christ said. So, stop it with the lying. And no, Joseph Smith is NOT going back down to Hell "from Heaven" to rescue his wife when this is all over. That is impossible for SO many reasons. Jesus Christ never lies (or "bends the truth") is just one of the reasons. And the Holy Bible is the true word of God Almighty, NOT that pagan Book of Mormon or any other of the pagan books (Pearl of Great Price, and so on) from that pagan church.
I appreciate that that was your experience, and I am very sad to hear it. I agree that there are problems with all the views you share. The Mormonism you share is not the Mormonism I recognize and certainly not the Mormonism I in any way embrace. I was born and raised in the church and I was always taught to worship, follow, love, and serve Jesus, and that one of the best ways I can do that is by loving and serving my fellow man. I have recognized many of the problems that you discuss. I have been deeply deeply troubled for years that we focus so much on the teachings of LDS prophets and not nearly enough in the scriptures. Fortunately, there are many others who feel the same way and I have always had associations where we do things differently. There is a very troubling primary song in my church called, "Follow the Prophet." I never wanted my children to sing that. I taught them to loudly sing, "Follow the Savior" instead, which they always did. You do have some valid criticisms of parts of my church, but there is much more to my church than just the parts you justifiably object to. I cannot speak for others in my religion, and I admit that I may not be in the minority, but I fully strive to worship and follow my Savior, Jesus Christ. I hope that you will not judge all members of my church so harshly. Any church can be ripped apart for many reasons. Please take people in any group, organization, or religion one by one as individuals. And, while I do share many of your theological concerns and do not hold to those ideas, I must also say that so many members of the church that I live among and worship alongside are truly some of the most loving, Christlike, humble, inspired, giving, and virtuous people on Earth. I am glad to know that there are such good, Christlike people everywhere. I only hope I am one of them.
@@MichelleBStone
I am not sad at all. Why should I be sad that Jesus Christ saved me? And the Mormonism that I just shared was the same, exact Mormonism that was going on in every state, including Utah, in the 1980s and the 1990s. The members in my church went to the same temples in Utah that every other Mormon (except for that off branch church that "we" refused to acknowledge). This wasn't just some "off branch" Mormonism church that I went to. I believe that it's safe to say that I was part of this church before you became part of it. I've known about this doctrine for a very long time. Now, if they have changed the doctrine, why would they really need to do that if they thought that the original Mormon doctrine was really true? Wouldn't you think that the LSU church would stick to their guns? However, say that the original doctrine was wrong. What's to keep the new doctrine from being wrong, too? FYI: According to the prophets of the Old Testament and the apostles to the New Testament, there is only ONE temple that God has EVER recognized, and that one is currently destroyed. It will be rebuilt, and it will be in Jerusalem. When that happens, the Tribulation will begin, and God's wrath will be poured on the Earth. I now see these Mormon temples as sacrilegious a sin against God Almighty, Himself. Read the Old Testament of the Bible and read the New Testament in the Bible. If you do, you will realize that there is only ONE temple that God recognizes. Just do that one thing FOR YOURSELF.
Question: Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God Almighty in the flesh? The reason why I ask is because this is exactly what Jesus Christ confirmed and why the Pharisees wanted to kill Jesus Christ so badly. This is why Jesus Christ; God Almighty was sacrificed (well, not just for that one reason but for why the Pharisees thought He had to die). To say otherwise would be the same as refusing to accept the sacrifice that God Almighty made, Himself. That's if you believe in the Bible, that is. READ AND STUDY THE NEW TESTAMENT. Then, compare it to your doctrine. What I say is not my opinion. This is what Jesus Christ said, Himself. Question 2: You DO know that Jesus Christ is the ONLY path to salvation, don't you (John 14:6-there is MUCH more than that one verse that confirms this fact)? That's if you believe in the Bible. Do you?
Now, I DO know that Joseph Smith's main argument is that King's James version of the Bible was changed over time and time again. So, he prayed, and the Angel Moroni showed up and showed him where these "Golden Plates" were at. First of all, have you looked at Joseph Smith's first editions to the Book of Mormon which were full of misspellings and grammar errors? Go ahead and search for his first editions. I dare you. When you do, answer me this. He used the Urim and Thummim to translate the Golden Plates so that God could tell him the meaning, right? So, God cannot spell, and He is terrible with His grammar? Oh, and you do know that the Urim and Thummim and the epod were NOT used by the High Priest and King David to translate ANYTHING, don't you? It was used to ask God Almighty if they should attack a city or not (or if they should do something else or not). The answer was either a yes or a no EVERYTIME they used it. So, how would Joseph Smith be able to translate a whole book if the answer was either just a yes or a no? Do you know how long it would have taken to translate these "supposed" plates? They would still be trying to get the first book/chapter done, today.
Example: I dare you to buy a German book written in Deutsch (or whatever language that you CAN'T speak), get the German author, and attempt to translate his book with this German author only being able to answer yes or no. You get to ask as many questions as possible. I'll wait here when you get it done. Second of all, if you really believe in the Bible at all AND if you have actually studied the Bible, you would know that men can never become Angels. Angels can never become men. Angels and humans are literally two different species. That's like saying that a prophet died and returned back as a horse to give Mr. Smith the plates. Do you believe that you can become a horse after you die? Would you even want that?
Finally, if the Bible was really a lie or mistake, why would the LDS church have anything to do with it? And why would God Almighty, Himself, allow this lie to go on for thousands of years until Mr. Smith came around asking questions? Don't get me wrong, there ARE many "Christian" churches that teach lies. They even pervert the Bible to point to their false teachings. However, Jesus, Himself, said that this would happen. He said that His word would be twisted by false prophets. That's why we have to KNOW and understand the words in the Bible. This heresy is not the fault of the Bible. I dare say that it is the fault of men who refuse to study Gods words in the Bible. Oh, and the Dead Sea Scrolls literally proved Josheph Smith's theory about the Bible wrong. And Israel is in Israel, NOT in Missouri. The fact the Josheph Smith and the LDS church would claim Missouri as "the new" Israel would have been really comical if it wasn't so sad. I can go on and on about the LDS church and the lies. Of course, this will be the last time that I speak on here. As for your subject, God may have allowed polygamy to happen, but He has always presented monogamy as the plan that conforms most closely to His ideal for marriage. Genesis 2:24, Deuteronomy 17:14-20, 1 Kings 11:3-4, 1 Timothy 3:2, Titus 1:6, Ephesians 5:22-33, Colossians 3:18-19
I left Mormonism 10 years ago. It wasn’t til 2 years ago I compared theology of the so called gospel of Mormonism to the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I had the born again experience and am saddened to hear this well meaning gal hope that we can “qualify to be in his presence”. The new covenant is the temple covenants and they have nothing to do with Jesus in the Mormon temple. 😞 I do like her enthusiasm against polygamy and the false Mormon prophets.
@@dm7876 Hmm, I wonder if we are talking past each other. I feel like you might not understand what I meant by that statement. The scriptures are filled with accounts of people being brought into the presence of God. I believe that is what the Savior came to teach us and to make possible. The fall took mankind out of the presence of God. Through Christ, we can overcome the spiritual and physical effects of the fall (spiritual and eventually even physical death) by being brought back into the presence of God. I believe the scriptures make it clear that we can seek these blessings in this life. I respect that others disagree, but I don't understand why this would seem contrary your understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
@@MichelleBStone
I confess with my mouth that Jesus is Lord, and I believe, WITH ALL MY HEART, that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Also, Jesus, God Almighty, and the Holy Spirit are one. The Trinity has been one since the beginning. There was NOTHING and NOONE before the Trinity. Also, since man would instantly die if they ever saw God's face, while in their mortal body on Earth, I strongly believe that this was 'a' main reason why it was Jesus (God in Human form) Who came down onto the Earth to be born by Marry so that He can be sacrificed so that all believers will be saved. If God Almighty, in His Heavenly form and not His human form, would have came down on Earth, EVERY MORTAL would have died as soon as they saw His face. Also, Jesus was NEVER Satan's brother. How can Satan be the brother if our Creator? It is impossible. This lie, that 'Jesus Christ is Satan's brother', is an abomination. Someone WILL pay dearly for that lie. Satan is the created. He tried to set his seat above our Creator. This is why he and his followers (1/3 of the angels) are currently in the 1st, and 2nd Heavens, right now.
Sometimes, they might find themselves in the 3rd Heavens, but ONLY when God commands them to come (They STILL bow down to Him whether they want to or not). Their visit at the Home of God WILL forever end before or 'when' the rapture happens. NO, they ARE NOT saved and in Heaven with all the righteous. They are either on Earth, in space, or at the Home of God 'when called upon BY GOD'. Earth is the 1st Heaven. Outer pace is the 2nd Heaven. And the Home of God is the 3rd Heaven. The home of God IS NOT that stupid, 'pretend' planet called Kolob. There is no such planet. Also, the 3rd, 2nd, and 1st Heavens are NOT the 'Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the Telestial Kingdom'. Those pretend kingdoms were made up by Joseph Smith and crew. Oh, and Satan and the 1/3rd angels that he took with him are also NOT in Hades with pitch forks to poke at the damned. They do not want to be there any more than the damned want to be there. Proof? (Matthew 8:28-34 or Mark 5:1-20) The Holy Bible is what you need to be studying for salvation. All other books are GARBAGE. Stick with just the Holy Bible.
I've always associated this scripture with the women who act and dress wantonly. I've watched those who do not have pure intentions as they interact with young men around them, believing that if they come across as sexy they will somehow be more desirable.
2 Esdras 16:33 and women will mourn having no husband's 😏 ........................ Lol maybe it is literally gonna happen where 7 woman will want to be with 1 man because there's going to be a lack of men in the end of wars.
Most women can handle widowhood or singleness if need be. There have been many times in history when war has decimated male populations, recently the two world wars in England. The people didn't feel the need to resort to polygamy. It seems to me that polygamy always causes far more problems than it solves.
@@MichelleBStone ruclips.net/video/1j6RJyfuVDY/видео.html lol ok if you say so but I insist you watch this video ☺️ and btw you can see wars happening in europe with ukraine and Russia 😏
@@MichelleBStone lol even the lord says this time woman will need a man like never before it says there in that verse lol sooooo 😏 we gonna find out when all hell breaks loose......and it's coming 😂
@@ELW-1995 if you honestly believe "it's coming," why are you laughing about it? And why do you choose to take this one out of context verse of Isaiah literally? Have you studied the rest of Isaiah? Do you take it all literally?
The people of Limhi lost nearly all of their men in their battles with the Lamanites. The kings solution: "that every man should impart to the support of the widows and their children, that they might not perish with hunger."
The exact situation has happened many times, including in the book of Mormon. Thinking polygamy is the best solution is just so strange.
If somehow women were killed, would you think polyandry were the solution? For example, in China, due to the one child policy and the infanticide of girls it caused, men far outnumber women. So, should seven men cling to one women?
@@MichelleBStone it's funny because it's going to happen it's ridiculously I know but then again what most of us men are going through is hell and now it's payback time for what most of these women did to us in this generation. But overall will see for sure in that day. In china they don't care about the one child policy because they are growing fast and now in china they are now sending there people everywhere globally so that's been taken care of.but look will see soon enough
Here are a few of the reasons why I have embraced and hold sacred our Latter-day Saint heritage of Plural Marriage.
In the Bible, we read of a Holy man named Abraham who is a faithful friend of God and kept all of His commandments. Abraham was blessed by God to have a plurality of wives and an unbreakable promise of endless posterity.
He had a grandson named Jacob who had four wives and from those four wives he had 12 sons. These wives are spoken of very highly by God
As honrable and virtuous women.
These did build the House of Israel. Jacob-like Abraham- was a man of God. His 12 sons by these four wives became princes, heads of tribes, patriarchs, whose “names had in everlasting remembrance to all generations.”
God even told Abraham that he would make him the father of many nations, and that in him and his seed all the nations and kindreds of the earth should be blessed.
The law of plural marriage was even perpetuated and sanctioned in the law of Moses.
most importantly, God only makes Covenants with the House of Israel.
The entire purpose of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Prophesied mission of Joseph Smith is to gather ISRAEL
In order to be saved, we must become-either by birthright lineage or adoption members of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob’s family. These polygamists stand at the head of the Kingdom of God.
God even said to Abraham: “And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curse them thee, and in thee shall ALL the families of the earth be blessed”.
With the scriptures before me, I could never find it in my heart to reject the heavenly vision which has restored to man the fullness of the gospel or the latter-day Propehts and apostles including Brigham Young merely because the restoration included the ancient law of plural marriage and of family organization.
I recently visited your page LDS Energy Healing Exposed. I have worked as a family counselor for years. There are serious red flags regarding the individuals you obsess about. This polygamy fetish, I see how consuming it is for you.
If you need somebody to talk to, there are resources.
@@murray13thwardreliefsociet6
Some polygamy activist suggested her page to me as well and that was the first thing I noticed.
@@murray13thwardreliefsociet6 agreed she definitely needs some help. Hope she gets it soon. She is obsessed with Phil Davis and Justin Griffin very unhealthy to herself and her family. It seems like she’s promoting polyandry and not polygamy. Just like Scientology I hear they are really into that stuff.
Hi Cameron. If you are sincerely wanting to have credibility and influence, I sincerely recommend listening to the previous episodes, particularly (based on your comment) Episode 6, Abraham's Polygamy. But honestly, the episodes on the Doctrine and Covenants, the emergence of 132, and the truth of Jacob 2:30, as well as polygamy in the Book of Mormon, are also all important. I think it would be very good for you to at least understand why people of good faith strongly disagree with you, especially if you wish to have any ability to be persuasive. Of course, you are free to continue to believe whatever seems most true to you. But if you do desire truth, it is important to at least understand what it is that you believe and why, and to see how it stands up to honest and sincere scrutiny.
@@MichelleBStone I think it’s interesting that you think that I can be persuaded to your interpretation of scripture. I am very familiar with all your arguments as they are IDENTICAL to the RLDS narrative that had been around since 1860. Their lies have already been debunked. All you are doing in your podcast is telling the same old repacked lied that have already been told. It is nothing original. And it’s the same lies being told by the Doctrine of Christ movement that I see you have become very sympathetic to, I have a testimony of plural marriage because it born through the power of the Holy Ghost. For this reason, I stand by this truth and by those Holy and virtuous women of the Restoration who also received their testimonies from the tongues of angels. So you can twist, distort, and wrest the scriptures to your own destruction but I won’t be going along for the ride with you .
Such nonsense people....
"my interpretation of all these myths are the true interpretations, therefore; polygamy defiles this building we call a temple."
This whole podcast can be summarized as ; "I don't like the fact that some of you guys read these mythical books and have decided that polygamy is required, so you are all under condem-nation" .... and I testify of these things in the name of a Purple Turtle AMEN
LOL, thank you for your comment. That was entertaining to read and made me smile. 😄
... and after you're done dissecting these mythical texts, you can move on to Harry Potter or some other text and attempt to determine the correct interpretation....
Hmmm, interesting idea. I guess I would probably need to read them first.
May I ask why in the world you took the time to listen if you find the entire Bible nothing but laughable and ridiculous?
@@MichelleBStone I find it interesting. Human capacity for mythology is quite fascinating.
Isaiah 4:1 isn’t the main scripture to justify polygamy. And even if it were you have wrested this scripture and applied your own interpretation.
The Lord gave a revelation and those faithful Saints who heard the voice of the shepherd obeyed God.
In order to deny plural marriage , you have to believe that the women of the Restoration were all liars. I don’t believe that. I have seen their fruits and have read their testimonies. These were faithful women of the highest honor.
Elizabeth Ann Whitney-who was a pure and holy woman- wrote
“It was during this time that Joseph received the revelation concerning plural marriage; also concerning the ordinances of the house of the Lord. He had been strictly charged, by the angel who committed these precious things into his keeping, that he should only reveal them to such ones as were pure, and full of integrity to the truth , and worthy and capable of being entrusted with divine messages; that to spread them abroad would only be like casting pearls before swine; and that the most profound secreasy was to be maintained, until the Lord saw fit to make it known publicly through his servants.”
Elizabeth Ann Whitney was the first mother of the Restoration to give consent for her daughter Sarah to be sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith in the celestial order of marriage. She stands as a witness to the truth.
These women are TESTATORS to our generation. They were entrusted with special manifestations and visions of the glories of eternity. The Lord revealed to these women his power and Glory. Their hearts were comforted and their faith was made perfect!
When persecution arose these women suffered untold pain had sorrow but they never flinched, they never wavered. They bore the crosses of the world and like Abraham made sacrifices sufficient for exaltation.
Those who deny that Jospeh Smlth taught and lived Plural marriage deny the restoration and the truth is not with them.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. We will absolutely do an episode on the testimonies of the women. It is so very complex. Please note, my focus is not on what Joseph or anyone else did in history, it is on what God teaches in the scriptures, in prophesy, in creation, and in the fruits of our actions and beliefs. Also, I have already addressed many of the other scriptures used to justify polygamy. I believe I said this was the main Old Testament scripture, which has been my experience.
Addressing your argument, however, there are insurmountable problems with this claim. If we choose to believe the claims if the women we are left with the reality that Joseph Smith constantly blatantly lied and denied both his many wives and the revelations God had given to him. In your accusation of me, claiming I call these women liars (which I don't) you yourself are calling Joseph Smith a liar. This is just one reason why this argument cannot be used to prove the Godly origination of polygamy. I think studying the scriptures is a far better approach.
@@MichelleBStone
You use straw man arguments. You claim Joseph Smlth denied polygamy but you intentionally leave out context and background. In every so called public denial Jospeh Smlth was being accused of either adultery or John C Bennett’s spiritual wifery. He was guilty of neither. And polygamy without authority is a sin and Jospeh and Hyrum taught that it was wrong to take unauthorized wives.
Joseph Smlth NEVER denied entering into eternal family sealing Covenants with his wives. NOT once!
Enemies of the Prophet Joseph Smith in Nauvoo also falsely equated plural marriage with the ‘spiritural wife system’ and ‘polygamy,’ and unjustly inferred that Joseph Smith was implicated in that practice. The Prophet abhorred and denounced those wicked counterfeit practices in public and in private. The revelation which the Prophet received, however, related to the contrasting subject of eternal plural marriage covenants, together with the keys and authority to seal marriage for eternity.
And you have consistently denied the scriptures in the Old Testament on polygamy.
Here are just a few. I purposely chose ones that are conveniently omitted from the discussion.
Judah had three sons, Er, Onan, and Shelah. Er, having married Tamar, died, because of his wickedness, without a child.
“And Judah said unto Onan, go in unto thy brother’s wife and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his,” and though he married her, he refused to “give seed to his brother. And the thing that he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also.” ( Gen 38:6-10) Shelah being too young to marry, Judah required Tamar to “remain a widow at her father’s house until Shelah was grown”. Thus we see that the Patriarchs were given the law of plurality of wives.
Then we have Gideon in the Book of Judges who had multiple wives and God blessed him with 72 sons. It was Gideon that God chose to deliver Israel and to whom he gave revelations.
When the principle of the plurality of wives was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord stated:
"Verily I say unto you, that the wisdom of man in his fallen state knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my Holy Priesthood, but ye shall know when ye receive a fullness.”
The Lord made clear that in our current fallen state, it is impossible for any of us to understand His purposes without having received a fullness of knowledge. To our own detriment, we allow modern culture to influence our perception, and we so often mistakenly associate marriage with Hollywood’s corrupted version of romance and sexual pleasure, warping our view of its divine and intended purpose. In order to overcome our prejudices surrounding the doctrine of plural marriage, we must make an appeal to heaven for understanding.
@@cameronsmith5786 there is a lot to respond to here. First, while it is true that Bennett and others were causing problems, I think your claim that Joseph never denied polygamy is a result of motivated reasoning far more than fact. For just one reason, plural wives, especially "celestial" plural wives are called wives. Among Joseph's many denials are multiple clear statements that he had only one wife. And there is much more. I included a link to several of his denials in one of the episode.
To the claim that I am omitting scripture, I clearly specify that this episode is only on this one verse. The rest of the Old Testament will be covered in a future episode.
The previous episodes speak to many of your claims and objections. Here's just one tidbit from episode 5 on the doctrine and covenants. Joseph Smith himself oversaw the compilation of both the 1835 and 1844 editions, which both included section 101, which was read aloud and unanimously supported by the entire church. That wasn't removed until 1876, which is when 132 was added. I think you might also find episode 7 on the emergence 132 interesting. I would welcome your feedback and objections. There are so many other issues as well. I really appreciate the discussion. I think it would be far more productive if you feel so inclined to watch the other episodes and continue to raise your objections. I am trying very hard to do the exact opposite of straw manning the ideas I used to hold. I have consistently looked for the very best arguments, which I them steel man as I engage with them. I continue to do that, because I believe that is the best way to find truth.
@ Cameron Smith When you say: "These were faithful women of the highest honor. " are you talking about such as the women who claimed to have had children from Joseph Smith. Are these the women you are talking about? The same ones who were proven wrong through DNA testing. This proves that these women were either dishonest or at the very least promiscuous. Maybe, you are talking about the trial to prove Joseph began polygamy in the Church, the U. S. Circuit Court, where the judge determined that there was not sufficient evidence presented to prove Joseph taught or practiced polygamy. The judge literally dismissed all of the women who testified, due to these women constantly contradicting themselves. Yes, these must be the faithful women you speak so highly of.
Possibly you are speaking of Brigham Young's wives several of whom claimed to also be married to Joseph. It is interesting how one of his wives made a statement that she would say anything to keep a roof over her head, and food in her mouth since she was too old and tired to be kicked out of her home. This would in no way influence the narrative, right?
Of course, there is one woman that you are forgetting, Emma Smith. She claimed her entire life that Joseph Smith taught against polygamy and never taught it in secret. Funny enough so did Joseph Smith, he also taught against it constantly. Joseph even stated that he taught harder doctrines publically than he ever taught in secret. So, either Joseph is a liar, perjurer, and a hypocrite or Brigham Young is, which is it?
@@richardsmyth1958
They can’t both be right. But they could both be wrong. That is a possibility that shouldn’t be dismissed.
This is excellent!!!❤