.380 ACP Non-Expanding Bullet Test - Fort Scott TUI, Lehigh Xtreme & NovX Engagement Ballistic Test
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
- Testing some non expanding bullets in .380 ACP. The Fort Scott TUI 95 gr spire point, the Lehigh Xtreme Defense 68 gr fluted and the NovX Extreme Engagement 56 gr polymer/copper matrix in a 10% Clear Ballistics test. Thank you to Edward B. for supplying this ammunition. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...
I like and learn from all the work you do, since most of us can't. I carry .380 most of the time.
I was carrying xtreme defenders +p Underwoods in glock 42 good damage but had trouble feeding so went to buffalo bore hollowpoints with hard cast staggered together.
@@clintmanning9364 Seems kind of frivolous.
@@macriggland6526 Actually, professionals have done this for decades, since hollowpoints were invented. If you alternate HPs with FMJ in the magazine, if one don't work the other might!.........................elsullo
@@elsullo2 Okay but that’s still only two shots. If you’re afraid of HP reliability but you still want to use a hollow point for your first shot, this can be done.
Underwood had 380+p on sale ordered two boxes came in today not loaded with hornady bullet looks like federal hydro shocks can't wait to try them out in water jugs at 1200 feet per second
The Hornady Podcast had a recent show called "Terminal Ballistics". It's pretty awesome deep dive into what actually happens when a bullet impacts flesh, what is the goal with hunting, etc.
I've not listed to that, but a lot of hunters have told me it's all about making two holes per shot if possible, so even if tracking is required, it's dead. I've shot a few deer in my lifetime but not enough to know specifics. If you look above my steel target, there's a deer blind up there. I haven't hunted since about 6 years ago when I developed rheumatoid arthritis and sitting still for hours is miserable, but I used to like it.
@@GunSam I learned a lot, even though I've never hunted anything but prairie dogs. Lots of practical info in it. /watch?v=rJj32FVPXpo
I think that Wilson Combat working with the Lehigh bullets have increased their performance. Everything Bill Wilson does is done to the highest standards.
Published MV on the Underwood offering (non +P) is 1300 fps.
Helpful for ammo selection for my Ruger Security 380 and my Charter Pit Bull.
Thanks for the comparison video. I have never had the opportunity to try the 68 grain Lehigh Xtreme or the 56 grain NovX ammo.
I have been pleased with the performance of the following ammo in my 4-inch 380 handgun:
100 grain Buffalo Bore flat-nose hard-cast lead
100 grain Ammo Inc. flat-nose FMJ
95 grain Fort Scott solid copper
Thanks Gun Sam for doing n finding out info on 380acp and amo we can use.
I think you should do a bunch on the amo n lots of content n tons to do that's really interesting to wacth.
Can we get a test of the Lehigh xtreme defense through the LCP?
Thanks. Always a good video. Interesting ammo. Thanks for your work and for sharing this information. Take care.
I've found taking a black sharpie to the bullet can really help the chrono pick them up especially with very small calibers and shiny mono metal bullets.
Doesn't work. I have done that as well and there's no realistic difference. I get as many non reads with blackened bullets as I do without it.
Once again, another great, informative video! As close as the performance is between the Ft. Scott and Lehigh, I think it would boil down to Price & availability. Not a big fan of the NovX, either.
My local shop has a ton of the Ft. Scott TUI, I currently have Sig V-Crown rounds in my P365 -.380 but seeing those made me look for test videos on them. Nice to see how they perform
Personally, I’ve been a Federal HST fan, so that’s what I load out with, but they’re getting a bit hard to find locally, but the TUIs seem to be more readily available, so I might just check them out.
The novax ammo looks similar to the special forces 9mm +p+ I’m currently carrying with a 2 piece case. I believe the design is to help against case deformation or rupture do to high pressure. The current load I have is a 68 gr solid copper bullet with a anodized coating with a muzzle velocity of 2000fps from a 5.5in barrel. Thanks for another great video.
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Thanks for the great info. My .380 choice currently is 95 gr Speer Lawman in my LCP
They didn't over P or under P some damage. Not bad for 380
Thay was a great video. thanks for the information. I bought sone TUI yesterday. the gun shop guy had a jel set up on the counter. It didn't look like yours. I think he lied. It was only $20 for 25. No great loss. I'll go with your recommendations. You're a a great shot. I pity the person that breaks into your home. i shot some blazer brass yesterday. Some shots were pulling low. I thought it was me. Never considered the ammo.
Barrel twist rate issue with the NovX?
I think with novix, form watching another channel, it lists the test barrel 6 inch barrel written in 6pt font.
The 2 piece casing is MUCH stronger and lighter than conventional brass, and is able to handle far higher pressure. That cartridge being rated in +P is no big deal at all.
Got a lot better target stand than the early one !
I've been shooting 380+P through a variety of LCPs (various models) for probably 10 years, I have never had a problem *unless* i put the lightened hammer spring kit into the gun.
Great job at showing .380 performance, 👍👍
and why I do not carry one. 😊
I think its a decent cartridge. The negatives are also the positives. Because the recoil is so low it's easy to really pop them off.
I use an old LCP that's picky about what it likes. I'm sure you've shot one and the recoil can be snappy. The ARX ammo and the Nomex both feed reliably and have less felt recoil (in my experience). I don't plan to shoot any distances so I'm happy with both.
Man you're wordy. But then by the end of the video i feel like you're talking just to me. Great job. Good analysis.
After purchasing a Sig 365-380 I called Sig and they told me that the pistol was rated for any plus p load but not plus p plus. This would make perfect sense as it just a rechambered 9mm. I’m not aware of any plus p plus 380 loads.
I picked up one of these recently too, they’re a nice carry gun for sure
I recently tried that NovX ammo in my EZ and had the first stoppage that gun has ever given me - ftf twice. I won't ever buy it again. I have used the Underwood with good success as far as accuracy at 10 and 15 yards and very light recoil. I just bought some FSM tui ammo but haven't tried it yet.
Like a lot of people you say that velocity does not matter until about 2200 fps. Consider the lowly 38 spl., at the near bottom of the self defense ladder at 800 to 900 fps.. The 357 mag is at the very top of the ladder at 1450 fps. The bullets are identacle ! The same diameter, the same weight, the same everything but volocity.
A question about that S&W EZ: If a guy with a substantial belly-roll carries it IWB, is the flab likely to depress the grip safety? Some brands use a wide grip safety, and some brands use a narrow grip safety. Is the dreaded belly-roll going to defeat the safety and require a tall holster protector?...................................elsullo
I have no idea as I don't carry that way. What I can say is a couple of times I didn't depress it enough with my palm to get it to fire, so I can't imagine carrying like that would depress it. Even if it did depress it, I would imagine it would only be on extreme bending, and if the trigger is covered all the time than I really wouldn't be too concerned about it.
Interesting. I’ve kept some 85 grain Silvertip around for about 30 years. But my early tests in duct seal were “optimistic.” Face it, the .380 is an enlarged .32 auto, so still pretty much a mouse gun, and doesn’t expand hollow points well, so solids make sense. I think the Lehigh has potential. Reliability and accuracy matter most. I’ve played with exotic lightweight high velocity loads (was buying Glaser and Mag Safe when I lived in an apartment around 1978), but am more comfortable with bullet weights and velocities closer to what the gun was designed for, and its sights regulated for. Thanks for an instructional test.👍
.380 is an exact scaling of a .45 ACP if I recall. It's one of those cartridges, where I wouldn't myself call it similar to a .32 ACP, but some of the lowest end ammo is around the same 100 ft lbs energy. Reason I wouldn't call it necessarily a mouse caliber is I have seen 300 ft lbs energy in .380 ACP+P. Of course at that point it's not really ".380 ACP" anymore, but i'm just sayin.
@@GunSam well, it comes from the same designer and era. I wonder where +P comes in for .380 and how badly it stresses the gun. It would seem to give the round more potential. The .32, .380 and .45 all have pretty moderate pressures, where 9mm parabellum is in the ballpark with .357 for pressure. Dinosaur that I am, my bathrobe pocket gun is a German made PPK.
@@lanedexter6303 That PPK is the best .380 made! It has a longer barrel than most .380's so it gets more velocity, three and a half inches I think, and enough size and weight to make it easy to handle. AND a fixed barrel for good accuracy.............................elsullo
Regarding, the ‘extreme defender’ due to the flutes is acting as a peltier, in fluids it create massive turbulent flow in liquids, and a laminar flow in the air.
ruclips.net/user/shortsLylMRupw4iE?feature=share
Hard to believe you are using a ballistic equivalent of what Wild Bill shot Dave Tutt with in the 1870's... he hit his target at 75yds 😉
1851 navy = better gun
7 1/2” barrel helps.
@@chrisgabbert658 velocity is more similar than you could imagine... black powder vs smokeless...
@@z1berzerker accuracy
@@chrisgabbert658 accuracy? Or a longer sight plane 😉 you are in the same book 📖 short barrels blow when comes to accuracy 👍
i like bill wilson. pointed ammo is good.
380 TUI advertised MV = 940 fps. Barrel length 4".
What armor rating are your steel plate target rated for? Asking because 9mm underwood defender 68g p will defeat armor like nothing
3/8" AR500. Stops basically everything up to 30-06 rifles and maybe a bit more. The steel is significantly harder than copper and flattens a copper bullet like a pancake. The steel in these targets is about 500 Brinell hardness. Copper is about 30 Brinell hardness.
Should use a 95gr Lead hard cast RN for comparison.
Please, please! Shoot ammo through the LCP Max. I'm at a complete quandary what ammo is best for a short-barrel 380 for self-defense
In an LCP, Gold Dot or HST seem to give the most consistent JHP results; if you're interested in the non-expanding type, the Underwood loaded with the Lehigh bullet is pretty excellent if you can afford it or even find it (but it's NOT fun to shoot in my Bodyguard).
There's not enough difference to be worth it. I have ran many rounds through my LCP that were the same velocity as this M&P. I DID exactly like what you are asking for about 3 years straight with non stop trolling "don't use LCP, use something more realistic size"...so I do....and yet here we are with ass backwards comments like this.
@Gun Sam _Revolver Aficionado_ damned if you do damned if you don't. I would think the LCP and the LCP Max would be one of the most carried 380s out there but I don't think it matters much. Thanks for putting up the money to show us the results regardless.
@@GunSam its pretty popular gun right now. The standard advice I hear is to just shoot full metal jacket. In a lot of the testing, like yours, hollow points, just barely expand out of a longer barrel than the LCP Max has. I just thought it would be a topic that might get you some eyeballs. My bad.
Hornady Critical Defens is my current load in m CPX-3 SCCY in 380. Great gun. Not as snappy as a 9.
Why the 3.7” barrel? All you .380 test should be out of the pocket pistol. The folks that like the longer barrels will know their results will definitely be better. Waste of time watching this video for a lot of your viewers.
For any pocket pistol rounds, expanding and exotic ammo is a waste of time. Maybe the Extreme Defender gives more damage. Just go with ball ammo or move up to 9mm/.38 Spl. as effective minimum.
You beat me to it 😊 I have been wanting to do this in all the popular calibers (eventually)
I probably won't do many more. I filmed one with the .380 ACP Underwood version in standard pressure and +P, but that's it.
@Guns&Cars I just got done binge watching some of your videos that I haven't watched in awhile. I like that you watch Sam's videos, too. He has some great videos. I have a couple 9mm's and my wife runs .357 Magnum.... so this is the perfect channel for the two of us.
@@GunSam It's crazy to see the difference in the wound cavity between your clear gel and my knox. The cavities in my Extreme Defender tests are 3x as large in the knox. I could be wrong, but I have come to the conclusion that in living flesh, reality for the tearing "energy dump" is somewhere between what the clear and knox gel shows. This is based on examining real world wounds from hunting with ammo that I have also gel tested in both blocks...
@@barterbobert7112 That's awesome, thanks for watching! I need to get some revolvers on the channel, working on that this year...
@@GunSam thank you for this test, I asked you awhile ago to test all these and you came through 👍🏻
Great timing for this video. Massad Ayoob has a short video out talking about .380 and how you might as well use non expanding rounds. After seeing this test, I tend to agree. My current CCW wishlist has the Ruger LCP Max on top.
Glock 28 is out now 10 +1 .380 with glock reliability Cant wait i have the 42. The Rumour is the Glock 25 will eventually come to Merica and that is 17 +1 :O
@@kennethferguson4283 I've never owned a 380, I just never was interested in it but I love 9mm. He did a test with 380 HST recently and they actually didn't do terrible but from what I've seen you're right. I wouldn't blow money on real expensive hollow points for a 380
Yes but these were all tumbling! Regular .380 fmj do even overpenetrate. I have seen some test with 29 inches in gel.
Fluted ammo is reported to often create wounds bigger than hollow points. But only if it is as a higher than normal fps. If the fps is too low, the hollowpoints can win
Underwood extreme defender is the same bullet except faster. That’s what I carry in my bodyguard. I have watched all the test I could find! I think that’s the best 380 round! The XTPs +p are next. Most other hollow points either under penetrate or have a problem clogging. Thanks for testing!
I filmed a video testing 68 gr Underwood Xtreme Defender VS the Xtreme Defender in the +P as well as the XTP in the +P all in one video. I have not released it yet.
@@GunSam I will be eagerly awaiting that one! I tried some redneck test with deer ribs gallon jugs of jello and heavy clothing. The XTPs did really good in those. I didn’t have the extreme defenders at that time.
@@GunSam When do you think you will release it?
Shoulda got G9 in there too but good video as always
Good video… always enjoy your content. I’m a fan of .380 and S&W so I bet that shield EZ is a pleasure to shoot ( except for the price of the ammo lol ) and looks like you’re becoming pretty fond of it .
I love my 380 ez. Smooth and fairly accurate. It's my training tool for first time shooters.
I can't recall any of the fancy ammo with supposed high velocity attaining those speeds in the real world. If I jad a 380 I'd use ball ammo. I do know of a case where someone shot monkeys (!) with ball ammo and lead reloads. Lead did better and he noted they didn't expand but the bullets had a sharp shoulder.
Filmed 4/12/23
Lehigh wins the day. Thanks for the test
I don't use +P or +PP in any of my short barreled guns. It needs to fired from at least 4 inch barrel. The fireball from shorter barrels may be impressive but it is the extra powder burning outside the barrel. This means it is not adding to velocity or foot pounds at the muzzle Given that the +P and +PP costs more than none like that it's just like burning money like they did in the Wiemar Republic in the 1920's because of hyper inflation.
1:00 LOL we've mostly all been there. Outstanding GunSam AF!!
Thanks.
Another great lineup and video. 👍
Typically light, fast bullets hit low.
I trust the Lehigh and Underwood for my Sunday go to church .380 Ammo choice. Again, great comparisons SAM!
"Why not have the actual rating?" Because the ammo wouldn't sell as well.
Great video as always. There’s one particular round I’d really like to see going through your battery of tests. Sometimes when I carry 380 I load the Underwood 68gr Maximum Expansion rounds. It looks like it uses Cutting Edge Raptor bullets with the thin breakaway sides for the hollowpoint cavity. I’m trying to figure out whether those are worth the hassle in a 3 inch barrel or whether I should just stick to Xtreme defense. Thanks again for all the data you give us.
Maximum expansion bullets in 380 are not worth your time or money. They do not penetrate deeply enough.
RoaR
Interesting I carry the Polycase/Inceptor round which is used by Novx and Ruger ARX. I use it in my 380 and 9mm as my carry round and have no accuracy issues in a P365, p380 or Ruger LCP max in 380 or any of my 9mm carry firearms. 56g or 69g are my bullet weights for both rounds. I have also used the lehigh with similar results. From several jell tests it appear to work well in most cases. It's also frangible which I like. For its intended use I feel it is effective enough to get the job done as well as less felt recoil at lease in my experience. Shot placement is where it's at in my opinion. Any one of these 3 will get the job done. I mainly carry the 9mm but also carry 380 occasionally. I believe your issue which can happen with any round maybe barrel twist to stabilize a fast lite round. Some firearms just do better with certain rounds.
If you will pull the trigger harder, you’ll get more velocity 🤷🏻♂️😬
You have to turn it sideways and punch with it, too, for max gat power...
@@RJ-rf8fu that is right, otherwise he may punch the shooter with it 🤣
Thanks to the viewer who provided the test ammo for this video. That Novx ammo doesnt convince me at all just like the ARX, but the ARX in 9mm works well from what i have eeen. Thanks for testing this ammo Sam! ♠️🎩🎯🎱🇺🇲🏁🇺🇦🔱🌻🌼🏵️💮🌺🏴☠️🏹
Thnx for review Bud, great job as usual! I'm running the Precision One 380 xtp jhp. Shooting The Bull Tuber showed getting around 13-1/2" of penetration and full perfect expansion out of a short barrel, in FBI gell. Another Tuber did testing and not even any expansion at all. Would be great if you would give it a "SHOT"😉 and see what a 3rd party comes up with. Interesting to know. Someone's FOS! Thnx Sam, great content! Carry on!!
Displacing incompressable fluid....does not go against "common knowledge" or known "ballsitic science", as you say or think. The fluted tip ( cut-off-phillips screwdriver tip of buller design) does such fluid "push". Even a liquid-locked combustion engine....if incompressable liquid fluid like water is in a car's combuston chamber....WILL bend rods.
Cost ?? I would go with basic Gold Dot type
Looks like Midway's last price on them was $29 for 20. Yes I agree there, I only carry this .380 on days I film with it so there's less setup in the woods (already wearing a holster for it), and I keep Gold Dot in it which I got for $35 for 50 rounds.
Browning 1911 380 is 4.25 inch barrel, I think they may have a 5 inch.
Thanks for the testing !
Oh yea I remember that gun. BDA or something. Like a smaller High Power. Nice memory, and nice gun
Arx incepter and honeybadger has a fluted bullet that competes with nov x too
👍🏼💪🏼🤟🏽🤘🏼🤘🏼
👋
I would like to see more shots with Fort Scott TUI another time if you can.
Bump
56 grain Nov X in 9x25 Dillon Max load when?
FYI your manual does not recommend +p loads
Short barrel with this caliber please
I enjoy your channel and all your tests but would really like to see 380 caliber run through a shorter Barrel like a Ruger LCP which I assume most people carry in that caliber... Some of these 380 pistols you are testing are as large as many of the micro compact 9 mm available these days.
I tested for years with an LCP, and got trolled every time for not using something bigger......I can never win huh
@@GunSam I think the issue there is that .380 is very different animal depending on which side of barrel length you're on; in a longer "pocket hammerless" size, which it was designed for, it's a much more credible option than the tiny pocket guns more commonly sold today. And of course if you test for one, people want to see the other ;)
@@gusporterhouse But that's what I found to be wrong here. I have ran several loads through my 3.68" barrel (M&P) and my 2.75" barrel (LCP) and there is essentially no velocity change. It's not like .357 Mag where 2" to 4" definitely increases velocity, it's not universal to .380 ACP. There may be some velocity increase with some loads, but the variance you would see in performance would be about zero with bullets like this.
@@GunSam Harumph :)
This is EXACTLY the kind of video (.380, reasonable barrel length, self defense ammo) I want to see.!!!!
THANK YOU VERY MUCH
👍
Extreme Defender is the best for 380 hands down but the other two are good by me too.Underwood I would want in ED.
You need to understand physical and fluid dynamics, specifically cavitation and hydraulics. It is why the Extreme Defendae is so effective AND barrier -blind on top of that.
I do, and that understanding specifically debunks these odd bullets as being any good.
@@GunSam You're simply ignorant, and there is none so blind as one who embraces his ignorance.
The following pistols in 380 acp come with a 4.25 inch barrel. Browning black label. The Bersa Thunder and Bersa Thunder Plus. GIRSAN MC14T in 380 has a 4.5 inch barrel. Rod
Thanks for the video. very good comparison of those different types of ammo. Probably the only one on RUclips that I have seen done with the .380. One note... I have the NovX rounds in .380 and on the box it says 1300fps but in the video you said 1400. So those averages you were able to get with those rounds wouldnt be too far below... even though they were still below 1300.
👍👍👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸👍👍
Very interesting. Was interested in the Fort Scott
great test thanks so very much
No flat points ? Good test .
Thanks 👍
👍😊🎯 the lee stuff.
In my S&W EZ 380 and Sig 365-380, I use Underwood Xtreme Defender but switch to Xtreme Penetrator when the winter coats come out. I'd use flat-nose FMJs over any JHP in a 380.
Fn fmj overpenetrate 29 inches in gel! And these winter coat argument is just bs. They didnt reduce penetration.
@@Gieszkanne Fabric does indeed reduce penetration. In tests where a 380 FMJ went 24" in clear gel, through denim it only went 19". Laws of physics. Over-penetration is given too much hype. It is better to over-penetrate than insufficiently penetrate. 380 JHPs are proven to be unreliable performers. In the 380, "solids" like the Xtreme Defender, TUI, or even FMJ are the reliable way to go.
@@MeMadeIt Man every single point you wrote is wrong! If you follow Sams channel for a while you should have realised that there are some reliable hp in .380 with good penetration. And with all his tests its clear that denim dont reduce penteration. Also you can find test with several layer to represent winter clothing that didnt reduce penetration. And you can not compare Xtreme Defender, or TUI to fmj. TUI tumble and XD have a lot of drag because of their shape which reduce penetration in both cases. I have seen at least to test of 380 fmj with 29 inch which is clear. overpenetration. And overpentration its not hyped you are ignoring the danger to others what is very irresponsible.
Love your tests. I've got a Rossi 20" .357 rifle on lay-a-way. Sure wish you'd spend some of that pile of $$ you're hording and get a lever action rifle and test the ballistics of .38/.357 out of it.
RockOn.StayFree.
I would chip in a box of ammo!
lol, okay. I can barely feed my kids. I use monthly ad revenue to buy the ammo I DO test.