Four of my uncles were combat infantrymen during WWII. Two in the European Theater and the other two in the Pacific Campaign. All of them were in forward units. Uncle Don was killed on June 6th, 1944 as he exited a landing craft on Omaha Beach. Uncle Augie served with Patton's 3rd Army. He was trained as a cook / baker but ended his combat service as a forward scout with a tank destroyer crew. He was wounded 3 times superficially. Uncle Bill fought in the Battle of the Philippines. He experienced the worst things human beings can do to one another. He suffered from Combat Fatigue / Shell Shock / PTSD whatever you want to call it for the rest of his life. He died in 2004. Uncle Julius fought in the Solomon Islands, got malaria and was eventually sent home. The three uncles who survived the war NEVER glorified it. They rarely spoke of their wartime experiences to their own peers. Perhaps because I was their young nephew and they wished to warn me of the horrors of war, they talked openly about their experiences with me. Don't know. I do remember their stories well and they sounded much like this Paul Fussell speech.
That generation told the males of of their families about the horrors of war to warn & prepare them. I found out only after my father died that I had been told stories that my sisters were not told. Mainly because he knew I could go to war and they couldn't, he wanted me to be prepared if I had to. I like him, join the Navy at 17 with his permission and signature. My mother was against it, but he told her I did it at 17 and so he can to. It'll be good for him, and it was.
Read several books about war by Fussell. Great stuff. Honesty in the extreme. "I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell." - Gen. William T. Sherman, Union Civil War Commander
That’s right I went to Desert Storm as a teenager and the Iraqis just gave up “ the first time “ yet countless books have been written about the battles we had . It’s all nonsense.It was a turkey shoot .
They weren't born thirty years ago. Even those of us who attempted to educate our children in this period have been shocked to find how little our children have retained.
05:06 🎖 Combat involves fewer fighters than commonly perceived; many troops perform non-combat tasks like cooking and driving. 11:51 📝 Writing after-action reports is a privilege of non-combatant leaders; combat soldiers are engaged in immediate, intense responsibilities. 16:56 📺 War censorship can suppress disturbing realities; it's a tool to maintain public faith in military authority. 19:49 🎭 The culture of war thrives on obedience; it stifles originality, promotes conformity, and relies heavily on the concept of morale. 23:11 📖 War narratives often distort truth for nationalistic purposes, turning grim events into heroic tales, shaping public perception. 27:25 🕊 The adversarial nature of war polarizes society; during conflicts like Vietnam, nuanced discussions are sidelined in favor of simplistic "dove" or "hawk" labels.
My uncle was shot down by "friendly fire" while transporting an aircraft to the UK from Canada over Scotland's Firth of Forth. Flak crews thought he was a German airplane. My uncle could not join US Army Air Corps due to one leg being shorter than the other caused by an accident where the motorcycle he was riding was struck by a motorist, so he joined the Royal Canadian Air Transport Corps. Fussell also wrote about how US planes would take big detours around London to avoid being shot down by trigger-happy flak crews. They shot down so many "friendlies" that they had to put a sign on ALL flak guns, "Not to be fired except under direction of an officer" thinking, wrongly, that it would cure that problem. I doubt very highly that it did.
Thank you for the opportunity to hear Mr Fussell and Mr Sledge strip away the layers of bullshit placed between veterans and civilians. Both addresses could be a product of conflict from the Bronze Age to 2025 and beyond. The mud and the maggots are not what anyone wants for their kids.
He brings up a good point. For some reason those who weren't in-country in vietnam cannot call themselves vietnam veterans, that is, veterans of the vietnam war. Instead, they are Vietnam era veterans. Whereas, for World War 2 or the Korean war or any other war, you are a veteran of that war regardless of what you did or where you served. It is a very strange distinction and I don't understand why it is so.
All those who were in the country during the are considered Vietnam Veterans . Those who were in military service during the Vietnam conflict (64 - 75) are considered Vietnam Era Veterans .
2 uncles, one started with the US Marines in '38, fought all over the Pacific, mustered out in '46. Other uncle, Army, started in North Africa, ended in Germany. Both came home but were never the same. The war tore them apart inside though you wouldn't really notice it from the outside. Damn shame men have to go through this. War is hell.
It's those vital, or at least very important, national interests that seem to get us involved in military engagements. National interests are hard to define but most patriotic Americans understand them when they hear them explained. At the end of the day, as we have been so often told, it's better to fight them over there than to fight them here.
A New York lawyer. An infantry officer. Both of the same period, same country, maybe similar upbringing, education, and religion. Now imagine a young woman in the 2020s. Especially, one from a comfortable New York lawyer family. Not even from the same planet. Are they going to expect young men they despise to do their dirty work?
Well, things are better now in the military since there are hundreds of crossdressing transgenders and openly gay members of the military, including officers. Isn’t that fine and dandy! Now THATS “Military Intelligence”! No doubt the Chinese and Russians fear us more now.
Those that have witnessed the Face of Battle or even the fringes of it, often come away afterwards into a pattern of questioning themselves, their choices made and even their nations. The competitive nature of man isn't going away anytime soon. Like the old saying goes; "Live or Die, Sink or Swim". ‐--------- "I hate and love. And if you ask me why, I have no answer, but I discern, can feel, my senses rooted in eternal torture". Gaius Valerius Catullus, ? - 54 B.C. Roman poet
In the book "Goodbye Darkness: A Memoir of The Pacific War" Bill Manchester told the tale of actor John Wayne making an appearance before USMC battle veterans at some USO event I imagine. Wayne was roundly booed off the stage! Those vets probably saw a pro-war Hollywood film starring The Duke and then went to sign-up as soon as they could. I think it safe to say they regretted signing up with the USMC as they were the shock troops and slaughtered by the thousands.
@@tedwright1380 - Wayne was 4F due to an old football injury. He tried hard to get into the armed forces, but could not - a refusal which haunted him the rest of his life. Especially since somany of his colleagues and old running buddies from Hollywood had gone into the uniform: Jimmy Stewart, David Niven (British Army), Clark Gable (USAAF), etc. Wayne may have been many things, but he wasn't a coward or a draft dodger.
So the question is: Why all the wars. 2 books giving a deep read are: The Empire of “The City” By Edwin Charles Knuth Pawns in the Game. William Guy Carr. Dauphin publications. As much history as I have read, I am shocked by these two books.
Yet in the second Gulf War the Army logistics troops were among those facing serious, and often fatal, dangers from IEDs and ambushes. What Fussell describes as being the support side of an infantry division was now on the front lines--as far as anyone can determine what a front and rear area was.
Fussell was an angry old man. I was both a kid and a young teenager during the Vietnam era. The notion that it was a black and white issue, for or against, is not explicitly true. There was much debate by people of all age groups and the anti-war "movement", while it dominated the media was very small and ineffectual. Nixon had 99% of combat forces out of Vietnam at the end of his first term. Back to Fussell. What is he implying? That we should not have gone to Korea. That we should not have fought WW2. Even his discourse regarding the attorney is overblown. He should have educated the man. Instead, he let loose his vitriol as if he was proud to know and hold something that the attorney dared wander into. The easy thing is to be for or against something and not delve into the complexities of an issue. He displayed none of that in his commentary. I learned something many years ago. Never take one thing or one person too seriously so that they are beyond reproach, that they can't be criticized. Avoid making someone your hero. You will always be disappointed.
The All-Volunteer Force is something of a myth, because the government isn't really telling the truth about how it actually works: Joining is voluntary, but once you are in, they more-or-less own you for life or until they no longer want you. Ask all of the guys "stop-lossed" back into uniform during the GWOT era years after they had left the service. It was a backdoor draft, is what it was. I have a friend who is now in his seventies, a colonel in the U.S. Air Force. The guy is supposed to be "retired," but has been called back so many times that it has become something of a joke to him. He has unique skills, to be sure, which is why he keeps being called away - but the guy does want to really retire sometime, and fed.gov won't let him. Does that sound voluntary to you? It sure doesn't to me...
Fussell's disdain is unnecessary and makes his analysis appear less reliable, inflammatory and weakly preening. The appearance of knowledge. His information is interesting but he is not.
His heart is in the right place, but he is just another drone for the State. The same arguments were used for the ”civil” war, for the Vietnam war, for WW2, yet he speaks like it is something new.
I always find it a little ridiculous that people call themselves "veterans" when all they ever did was shuffle paper, cook, drive a bulldozer or that kind of thing. Unless you got shot at and shot back, sat in a hole while bombs are in imminent danger of pulverizing you, you're just another government employee and I'm not going to be particulalry impressed by you.
They’re all called veterans because they all raised their right hands and agreed to kill or be killed for their country. They all endured separation from their loved ones, loss of control over their lives, and constantly prepared themselves for the horrifying possibility that they might have to experience the ugliest spectacle conjured by humanity-war. If they’re not the ones pulling the triggers, then they are helping the killers kill, by delivering their bullets, or feeding them, or fixing their tanks, or building the airfield for their helicopters, and so they bear a similar stain of guilt on their souls. That’s why they have earned the title of veteran.
@@gordonlandreth9550 so a quartermaster or a cook or any other REMF deserves the same recognition as someone who saw actual combat? You don't see a difference?
Current scientific evidence strongly suggests creation as the origin of the universe and life in it. Furthermore, current scientific evidence strongly suggest that the epitome of oxymoronic expression is the term "evolutionary biology" since evolution cannot begin to explain the basic structure of the simple cell. Every cell produces protein but it gets the instructions to produce protein from DNA which is written on protein, an irreducible complexity which evolution cannot begin to explain.
Paul is spot on. No romantic notions and no Hollywood. Those who have never experienced it would have trouble understanding actual combat.
Four of my uncles were combat infantrymen during WWII. Two in the European Theater and the other two in the Pacific Campaign. All of them were in forward units. Uncle Don was killed on June 6th, 1944 as he exited a landing craft on Omaha Beach. Uncle Augie served with Patton's 3rd Army. He was trained as a cook / baker but ended his combat service as a forward scout with a tank destroyer crew. He was wounded 3 times superficially. Uncle Bill fought in the Battle of the Philippines. He experienced the worst things human beings can do to one another. He suffered from Combat Fatigue / Shell Shock / PTSD whatever you want to call it for the rest of his life. He died in 2004. Uncle Julius fought in the Solomon Islands, got malaria and was eventually sent home. The three uncles who survived the war NEVER glorified it. They rarely spoke of their wartime experiences to their own peers. Perhaps because I was their young nephew and they wished to warn me of the horrors of war, they talked openly about their experiences with me. Don't know. I do remember their stories well and they sounded much like this Paul Fussell speech.
That generation told the males of of their families about the horrors of war to warn & prepare them. I found out only after my father died that I had been told stories that my sisters were not told. Mainly because he knew I could go to war and they couldn't, he wanted me to be prepared if I had to. I like him, join the Navy at 17 with his permission and signature. My mother was against it, but he told her I did it at 17 and so he can to. It'll be good for him, and it was.
What units were they in?
It's a real pleasure to find this speech by an author as intelligent as Paul Fussell. Thanks for this.
Read several books about war by Fussell. Great stuff. Honesty in the extreme.
"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell." - Gen. William T. Sherman, Union Civil War Commander
That’s right I went to Desert Storm as a teenager and the Iraqis just gave up “ the first time “ yet countless books have been written about the battles we had .
It’s all nonsense.It was a turkey shoot .
To the people who think all the badness happened in the last 3 years - you were warned 30 years ago but you chose not to listen.
They weren't born thirty years ago. Even those of us who attempted to educate our children in this period have been shocked to find how little our children have retained.
Mr Fussell was very prophetic regarding censorship, critical thinking etc
Just heard Jeff Deist talking about this man on a podcast. Ordered one of his books.
05:06 🎖 Combat involves fewer fighters than commonly perceived; many troops perform non-combat tasks like cooking and driving.
11:51 📝 Writing after-action reports is a privilege of non-combatant leaders; combat soldiers are engaged in immediate, intense responsibilities.
16:56 📺 War censorship can suppress disturbing realities; it's a tool to maintain public faith in military authority.
19:49 🎭 The culture of war thrives on obedience; it stifles originality, promotes conformity, and relies heavily on the concept of morale.
23:11 📖 War narratives often distort truth for nationalistic purposes, turning grim events into heroic tales, shaping public perception.
27:25 🕊 The adversarial nature of war polarizes society; during conflicts like Vietnam, nuanced discussions are sidelined in favor of simplistic "dove" or "hawk" labels.
After action reports are pure fiction but they're the most trusted source by historians.
Meanwhile ... Pet videos get millions of likes. I wish I could give this one a million likes! Great presentation. Keep up the great work.
My uncle was shot down by "friendly fire" while transporting an aircraft to the UK from Canada over Scotland's Firth of Forth. Flak crews thought he was a German airplane. My uncle could not join US Army Air Corps due to one leg being shorter than the other caused by an accident where the motorcycle he was riding was struck by a motorist, so he joined the Royal Canadian Air Transport Corps. Fussell also wrote about how US planes would take big detours around London to avoid being shot down by trigger-happy flak crews. They shot down so many "friendlies" that they had to put a sign on ALL flak guns, "Not to be fired except under direction of an officer" thinking, wrongly, that it would cure that problem. I doubt very highly that it did.
Thank you for the opportunity to hear Mr Fussell and Mr Sledge strip away the layers of bullshit placed between veterans and civilians.
Both addresses could be a product of conflict from the Bronze Age to 2025 and beyond.
The mud and the maggots are not what anyone wants for their kids.
I have the theory that a Sumerian soldier from BC 2000 and I would tell the same stories and have the same gripes.
Thank you, the mises institute
He brings up a good point. For some reason those who weren't in-country in vietnam cannot call themselves vietnam veterans, that is, veterans of the vietnam war. Instead, they are Vietnam era veterans. Whereas, for World War 2 or the Korean war or any other war, you are a veteran of that war regardless of what you did or where you served. It is a very strange distinction and I don't understand why it is so.
All those who were in the country during the are considered Vietnam Veterans . Those who were in military service during the Vietnam conflict (64 - 75) are considered Vietnam Era Veterans .
2 uncles, one started with the US Marines in '38, fought all over the Pacific, mustered out in '46. Other uncle, Army, started in North Africa, ended in Germany. Both came home but were never the same. The war tore them apart inside though you wouldn't really notice it from the outside. Damn shame men have to go through this. War is hell.
Around 11 mins: What a speach. Bravo
Brilliant speech. Thanks for posting it.
It's those vital, or at least very important, national interests that seem to get us involved in military engagements. National interests are hard to define but most patriotic Americans understand them when they hear them explained. At the end of the day, as we have been so often told, it's better to fight them over there than to fight them here.
A New York lawyer. An infantry officer. Both of the same period, same country, maybe similar upbringing, education, and religion.
Now imagine a young woman in the 2020s. Especially, one from a comfortable New York lawyer family.
Not even from the same planet. Are they going to expect young men they despise to do their dirty work?
Thats quite alit if assumptions
But let us not forget that most oxy of oxymorons: Military Intelligence.
Government Aid
Well, things are better now in the military since there are hundreds of crossdressing transgenders and openly gay members of the military, including officers. Isn’t that fine and dandy! Now THATS “Military Intelligence”! No doubt the Chinese and Russians fear us more now.
Timely wisdom.
Thank you for sharing.
Those that have witnessed the Face of Battle or even the fringes of it, often come away afterwards into a pattern of questioning themselves, their choices made and even their nations. The competitive nature of man isn't going away anytime soon. Like the old saying goes; "Live or Die, Sink or Swim".
‐---------
"I hate and love. And if you ask me why, I have no answer, but I discern, can feel, my senses rooted in eternal torture".
Gaius Valerius Catullus, ? - 54 B.C. Roman poet
Read his book, everyone interested in war should read it, especially those who order them.
In the book "Goodbye Darkness: A Memoir of The Pacific War" Bill Manchester told the tale of actor John Wayne making an appearance before USMC battle veterans at some USO event I imagine. Wayne was roundly booed off the stage! Those vets probably saw a pro-war Hollywood film starring The Duke and then went to sign-up as soon as they could. I think it safe to say they regretted signing up with the USMC as they were the shock troops and slaughtered by the thousands.
John Wayne attempted to enlist and was turned away. The war dept said he was more valuable to the war effort on the home front.
@@tedwright1380; That's the story they tell
@@tedwright1380 - Wayne was 4F due to an old football injury. He tried hard to get into the armed forces, but could not - a refusal which haunted him the rest of his life. Especially since somany of his colleagues and old running buddies from Hollywood had gone into the uniform: Jimmy Stewart, David Niven (British Army), Clark Gable (USAAF), etc. Wayne may have been many things, but he wasn't a coward or a draft dodger.
Sadly our Leaders have not learned the lesson of WW2, they continue to send our best to Die in unwinnable WARS. I served in Vietnam. 68-70
So the question is: Why all the wars. 2 books giving a deep read are:
The Empire of “The City” By Edwin Charles Knuth
Pawns in the Game. William Guy Carr. Dauphin publications.
As much history as I have read, I am shocked by these two books.
Yet in the second Gulf War the Army logistics troops were among those facing serious, and often fatal, dangers from IEDs and ambushes. What Fussell describes as being the support side of an infantry division was now on the front lines--as far as anyone can determine what a front and rear area was.
Spot on.
Fussell was an angry old man. I was both a kid and a young teenager during the Vietnam era. The notion that it was a black and white issue, for or against, is not explicitly true. There was much debate by people of all age groups and the anti-war "movement", while it dominated the media was very small and ineffectual. Nixon had 99% of combat forces out of Vietnam at the end of his first term.
Back to Fussell. What is he implying? That we should not have gone to Korea. That we should not have fought WW2. Even his discourse regarding the attorney is overblown. He should have educated the man. Instead, he let loose his vitriol as if he was proud to know and hold something that the attorney dared wander into. The easy thing is to be for or against something and not delve into the complexities of an issue. He displayed none of that in his commentary.
I learned something many years ago. Never take one thing or one person too seriously so that they are beyond reproach, that they can't be criticized. Avoid making someone your hero. You will always be disappointed.
Yes, he missed reality.
Thank you
..... (The Selling of the Pentagon) ........ Try to notice how often they pitch their product to you DAILY.
16:00 His comment on the Cold War is fucking brilliant.
I agree
Amen
He keeps talking about "conscripts" when the volunteer Army was inaugurated 1 July 1973, 21 years before this interview.
And we have lost every war we fought with this volunteer army. Is the army Volunteer when you cannot leave ?
This talk he gave was in 1994.
No sugaring .
@@alexkalish8288What was the war we lost ? Grenada ? No . Somalia ? Maybe all objectives were not achieved . Desert storm ? No way . Iraq ? .,.....
The All-Volunteer Force is something of a myth, because the government isn't really telling the truth about how it actually works: Joining is voluntary, but once you are in, they more-or-less own you for life or until they no longer want you. Ask all of the guys "stop-lossed" back into uniform during the GWOT era years after they had left the service. It was a backdoor draft, is what it was.
I have a friend who is now in his seventies, a colonel in the U.S. Air Force. The guy is supposed to be "retired," but has been called back so many times that it has become something of a joke to him. He has unique skills, to be sure, which is why he keeps being called away - but the guy does want to really retire sometime, and fed.gov won't let him. Does that sound voluntary to you? It sure doesn't to me...
Why is this guy getting on my nerves??
Fussell's disdain is unnecessary and makes his analysis appear less reliable, inflammatory and weakly preening. The appearance of knowledge. His information is interesting but he is not.
His heart is in the right place, but he is just another drone for the State. The same arguments were used for the ”civil” war, for the Vietnam war, for WW2, yet he speaks like it is something new.
In this talk Fussell is critical of the war, the state, and civilian optimism of war. Scratching my head wonder wtf you’re taking about.
@@CMixBrooklynhe is illustrating “ witless adaptation and social dishonesty.”
Are you alright?
I always find it a little ridiculous that people call themselves "veterans" when all they ever did was shuffle paper, cook, drive a bulldozer or that kind of thing. Unless you got shot at and shot back, sat in a hole while bombs are in imminent danger of pulverizing you, you're just another government employee and I'm not going to be particulalry impressed by you.
They’re all called veterans because they all raised their right hands and agreed to kill or be killed for their country. They all endured separation from their loved ones, loss of control over their lives, and constantly prepared themselves for the horrifying possibility that they might have to experience the ugliest spectacle conjured by humanity-war. If they’re not the ones pulling the triggers, then they are helping the killers kill, by delivering their bullets, or feeding them, or fixing their tanks, or building the airfield for their helicopters, and so they bear a similar stain of guilt on their souls. That’s why they have earned the title of veteran.
@@knoxm304 yeah......no.
You should be impressed with them because they volunteered to do something that few want to do - - -sacrifice for others .
@@knoxm304Thanks for that brilliant reply . I couldn't say it better .
@@gordonlandreth9550 so a quartermaster or a cook or any other REMF deserves the same recognition as someone who saw actual combat? You don't see a difference?
"Military intelligence"
Current scientific evidence strongly suggests creation as the origin of the universe and life in it. Furthermore, current scientific evidence strongly suggest that the epitome of oxymoronic expression is the term "evolutionary biology" since evolution cannot begin to explain the basic structure of the simple cell. Every cell produces protein but it gets the instructions to produce protein from DNA which is written on protein, an irreducible complexity which evolution cannot begin to explain.