Intel H20: Deep Dive on Optane for the Masses, with a Dark Secret
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- **********************************
Thanks for watching our videos! If you want more, check us out online at the following places:
Website: level1techs.com/
Forums: forum.level1tec...
Store: store.level1tec...
Patreon: / level1
KoFi: ko-fi.com/leve...
L1 Twitter: / level1techs
L1 Facebook: / level1techs
L1/PGP Streaming: / teampgp
Wendell Twitter: / tekwendell
Ryan Twitter: / pgpryan
Krista Twitter: / kreestuh
Business Inquiries/Brand Integrations: Queries@level1techs.com
IMPORTANT Any email lacking “level1techs.com” should be ignored and immediately reported to Queries@level1techs.com.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Intro and Outro Music By: Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons...
Oh nice, I worked to help test these systems at the Hillsboro Intel Site where they were prepped. Cool to see my favorite tech tuber review something I personally worked on.
nicely done good sir, I didn't have to yank any cranks or frob any knobs that I usually do to squeeze out all the performance as appropriate.
Nice!
Vast data is doing some mixing of optaine and QLC flash in a storage pool for the Data center. It’s impressive so far
@LabRat Knatz
I know there are other ways to do the same thing. its just interesting to see what companies do
why go through all that pain when cards that run 4 or 8 m.2 drives are easily to find.
which means you don't need 10 adapter cables
@LabRat Knatz eh easy enough to get lots of PCIE lanes on a server. even just my dual E5 2620 server has 80 gen 3 lens. take away 16 for networking and another 16 for Sata/sas storage. That still leaves you with 48 lanes, or 3 16x card worth or 6 8x cards, cheaply giving you 12 and with a higher end card 24 drive.
HighPoint SSD7140 is one of those nicer card that will do the bifurcation. and even without it, asus and asrock both made 16x to quad m.2 for HEDT
Oh hello from the LTT forum!
@@circletech7745 Hi
A comparison of that powershell script between the H20 and another nvme ssd would have helped illustrate your point a lot more.
Also to mention the read latency, its what optane does best after all :)
I tried it on my 900p a few months ago. I'm not one to spam my channel everywhere but it's there
@@GoetheNorris Thank you, I've had a hard time actually finding a video or showing of the latency reads in irl cases. That's almost if not better, in some cases as responsive as software ram caching. By any chance are you still using the 900p?
Ah, Intel RST. The joy of random extreme DPC latency spikes and audio pops.
The longer I watch this video the more I feel sad for Optane dying
This looks interesting. I got here from the 'Optane is dead' video, which was a bit over my head but man do you get excited about this kinda stuff.
Thanks for this, good to know future compatibility problems. I have a H10 I had been using and was going to upgrade and the DC P4801X... because prices dropped. I guess I may have to save more for a newer model. I really do love it even with the slower H10.
i love these explanations "it can and its magic"
I'm intending to use primo cache to combine a 1TB SSD and 5TB HDD for a giant game storage drive in the future. Hoping it doesn't cause any headaches.
I just loaded 16 Linux apps in ~5 seconds from a cold reboot. Each loading via different threads. This with a 500GB PCIe 4.0 WD Black SN850 (got for £79).
I love your wallpaper of the Jupiter lighthouse in the background! I'd recognize that anywhere. (Jupiter, FL)
IDK why i keep watching these optane videos... But i'm obsessed.
I use a p900 as boot and it has a 50 gig partition set aside for primocache. It's working great but some games can't handle it. I don't know why, but rocket league on Optane will stutter and show 3-400 ping everytime a new map is loaded. It goes away after 30 seconds but it's a nightmare to live with. Warframe does the exact same.
Both were fixed by moving to a sata ssd
If only i could get this with 110GB of optane and 2TB of TLC/QLC, I'd replace my 4x110GB optane drives in my file server(x470 with bifurcation) use the optane for write cache, and the TLC/QLC as read cache(most of my stuff is write once read infrequent, except for a few large files)
Edit, this would be true bifurcation in the classical sense, cutting the drive in half
If most of your files are write once and read infrequently, I think regular hard drives would be sufficient...
@@SirReptitious 3 tiers, optane, SSD, HDD
As much as the Windows Store leaves to be desired, the automatic upgrades and clean uninstallation is pretty much want matters for me.
i used to worry about those things, till i realized:
all my important data is stored externally and to make my non-important data stored externally as well was very simple,
i don't really care about security in this machine as even my purchases are done on my phone nowadays and even so have a firewall.
so i really don't give any fucks about my personal machines anymore, either working or gaming.
i just turn off all annoyances, like fricking windows update and when things feels like they are being iffy, i just format and start again.
i even thought of something like doing a image file to make it quick... but it took me like one hour and half last time. it really doesn't matter
Hi, I'm here from the future. Newegg had the 960GB 905P for 349 US yesterday...
I like learning about these kinds of products, even though I have no reason to ever buy an optane drive. Luckily for me I suppose, I am happy with the performance of SATA SSDs. Granted, I have an old mobo that doesn't have any m.2 slots(yes, I know I can add them via PCIe cards), but the HUGE speed difference between hard drive and SATA SSD still has me satisfied all these years later. I have a Samsung 840EVO for my boot drive, two Micron 1100 2TB, and one Crucial MX500 2TB for my most-used storage. Then I have two 2TB and one 4TB hard drives for rarely used data. Unrarring huge archives, video editing, etc. feels plenty fast enough to me(having 32GB of ram helps too!) using "just" SATA SSDs.
Since they show up as 2 drives could you / would you want to raid 3 of these into 2 fast/slow raid volumes?
The Windows 10 store is perfect...once you gut it out of Windows.
How does the H20 drive perform on AMD tiered storage software in windows, or ZFS for Linux on this drive (log and L2arc on 2 Optane partitions)
I think I would use a small H20 drive for a OS disk for my homelab server to save time when I play on my homelab.
Showing something Like the Graphs that HD Tune gives you about latency would be wonderful to see.
Thanks for the advice just found some h20 512gb modules for a good price on ebay going to use it in my home server I’m building for automation and file storage
"It Can, And It's Magic"
Can we please have a review of that p5800x, that seems like a really interesting product (also the support for workstation use seems to be a little more complicated than one would think initially) :)
Is there any reason for using this if you already have a normal nvme drive, like a Samsung 980 pro?
Yep i like my Optane 64Gb with my wd 10tb Black, for games drive.
Does it work? I ran into issues with Warframe and Rocket League. They would lag and stutter for 30 seconds everytime a new map is loaded
im glad you enjoy it, but i really dont get why intel is still trying to push ram on a ssd as some miracle of speed performance. the power draw of a sata ssd is what 5w? are we saying that 5w is killing laptop batteries/limiting their use?
maybe the cool aid is too rich for me, but i dont see why buying more or faster(mhz/timing) ram or just a faster storage drive wont serve your system better than buying optane.
I am not an office drone. I am a hotel drone drone currently until the new house is done.
You got me excited about both this laptop and the H20. But HP is no longer selling the model you reviewed, and was released just 8-10 months ago??? Additionally, I can find no other laptop for sale currently offering the H20 as an option. What gives, if you happen to know? Has Intel canceled the product since your review in May already? Thanks in advance for any info you have on this.
I just bought HP's new product line Victus laptop with H20. The Victus line is a 16.1" screen and basically this is an OMEN class gaming PC with RTX 3060 16gb ram 512gb H20 and Intel I7 11800H for a smidge over $1100 which is about $400 below an equitable OMEN gaming laptop
That Doug Demuro opening. =)
How hard is it to speed up your system like that in linux?
Is Primocache in a Workstation with 4x H10/H20 (4x4x4x4 pcie slot) a good idea? Or should i rather go for something like a P900 and 3x P4500.
I just got an 500gb h10 . I'm using it to see if it helps speed some sshd's that I have raided.
Geez, even regular SATA SSDs would speed up SSHDs if used as cache; SSHDs generally suck IMHO.
@@SirReptitious I just ordered a 256GB M.2 sata as cache for the 2×4TB. See if that helps. If not, meh.
Is there no option for RST in the BIOS?1 I'll be honest: I've never used it, as it's too rich for the fellow Ivy Bridge peasants like myself. :(
Edit*: 2:00 _Dat Windows Store review._ Maybe the app had an accident. Well what do you mean had an accident, what does that mean? ruclips.net/video/FElfV-2H5vU/видео.html
Only speaking in jest, Intel. Still love the CPU I purchased 5 years ago.
They need to make a version that is PCIe 4.0 with 1TB of 2 bit MLC NAND, and 64GB of optane. And market it as a 1 up of what the Samsung 980 pro should have been.
So can the latest RST be used to add optane to boost a VROC raid? I have an intel P3608 with a raid-0 vroc key since the 1.6tb is actually 2 800gb drives in x4 for a total of x8 so you need to raid for the one drive to work. After much tinkering I got it to boot windows.
I have a few 16gb optane sticks and an Asus Hyper M.2 card, so could I get a 64MB cache of optane to boost my server class SSD?
Sounds like it depends on platform and driver level and I am guessing my x299 system may not be able to do it.
Oh and you cannot VROC the optanes, they are no supported and the bigger sticks that are able to, are essentially unicorns.
I'd consider myself an office drone. My work laptop has a _dual-core_ i7 7600u and I use Alteryx every day. It's agony. What I wouldn't give to have this kind of responsiveness :
I have the same CPU at work, even with an SSD it feels like a hard drive. CPU pegged at 70+% all the time. It's terrible.
thank you and posted to reddit
low power consumption sound very good. as someone who live in hot climate, turning on old computer/laptop without ac is like turning on a small oven esp if youre in small room. instead off more power, i rather have reasonably fast running machine with low power consumption. tho other component like cpu and gpu prolly output more heat than storage so... yeah...
Since this is visible as a different devices, can a software like primo cache be used to cache the SSD?
Yep
I wanna buy P1600x 118GB for a AMD ( probably ) laptop and use it like a system drive! Hope it will run nicely!
How secure is the optane drive with the variables it's functions create?
Have you tried comparing intel's RST vs primocache for the H20?
are those new drives working well under linux?
I may have missed it but what is the model number of the laptop?
I would also like to know.
I wonder why they didn't go with NVMe namespaces? That is, they'd have the flash as /dev/nvme0n1, and the Optane as /dev/nvme0n2. Or have have them as two separate function numbers on the same PCIe device number?
I have an H10 and a Kioxia NVMe device in my HP Omen 2021 (two M.2 slots), and I can't decide whether to move the main OS to the H10, or keep it on the Kioxia. The Optane part is sort of just sitting there, and I'm not sure what to use it for. Without Optane caching, the Intel flash is definitely slower than the Kioxia.
KXG60ZNV512G KIOXIA
INTEL HBRPEKNX0202AH
INTEL HBRPEKNX0202AHO
this would have required a custom controller. This aint that.
@@Level1Techs I feel like optane has so much potential if they did do a custom controller. You could use some of it to replace the DRAM, and get cost savings and power loss protection without the double-read latency hit of most DRAM-less SSDs. And then you could expose the rest of it to the OS for swap and/or cache.
Hard drives may become great again once dual actuator models reach the market hopefully. I'd rather have to go to a clean room and maintain my hard drive then to have dead flash (inevitably). Plus Hard Drives just sound cool.
Or you could just have data parity and backups and not worry about clean rooms
@@GoetheNorris I already have backups lol.
There happens to be a data recovery place nearby were I can do maintenance on my best hard drives replace filters relubricate the motor and actuator arm. thats definitely not a thing the average person can do for sure.
I have the AMD 4500u version of that laptop. Really nice for fairly cheap.
The bottom two scores on that CrystalDiskMark test are phenomenal! Was faster that most SSD's even fast NVMe ones.
That's Optane for you
I don't get why people don't get why Optane is amazing. I'm sick of Linus saying "nahh you don't need this, the typical user just needs QLC."
Ah, HP spectre. Don't think I've ever met anyone who's didn't break. Looks good. Does NOT last.
somebody sounds excited
My face remains intact and this must be corrected.
Thanks for all your work!
Bought a barely used 900P some time ago. Love the thing no cache no bs. Just reliable speeeeeed.
The biggest performance killer on my work laptop is the antivirus software, a super fast ssd wouldn't change that unfortunately...
well, kill the antivirus, anything else than Windows defender is unecessary imo and i even remove that
@@Elinzar That would be against company policy ;) But they are evaluating Windows Defender so there is a bit of hope...
@@samuelschwager damm, i hope for your own sanity they just remove whatever "anti" virus crap that they put on your machine
@Elinzar I've got 3rd party VPN, Firewall, Anti-virus software on my work PC, along with other background company apps... it's awful how much performance is wasted.
But is H20 any good for a desk top box?
You think Apple will put 3DXpoint Persistent Memory in future ARM Macs?
Latency is how fast the truck is going. Mbps is a measurement of how much stuff is in the truck and moved from point a to point b during a second.
When people talk about speed they are actually talking about throughput. Latency is the true measurement of speed. Speed, like throughput, is only one metric that matters.
What is the laptop model?
"Hey Intel, can you extend RST support to the bigger drives?"
"Get a better hobby."
Primocache with idle flush write is safe and fast
Yes... but what happens if you put 4 H20's in a raid0?
The HP specter x360 14 OLED in my opinion is the best laptop form factor right now it's a beast it looks great perfect screen size perfect portability
I have the OLED option and they aren't very high quality, i would rather try the oleds laptops samsung just released, low light uniformity is absolutely terrible, at a brightness of 10/255, half the screen in random spots is glowing green
@@DeceLatina haven't had any issues with my couple specter x360 14 oleds so far I've bought 4 for workers at the office
@@DeceLatina I know they were hard to get for a few months there was some supply chain issues maybe there was also some defective ones ?
@@Reedith they're not very bright either and since they don't come in matte are a pain in office spaces. Burn in from running them at 100% brightness is going to be horrible and in a year you can throw them out. I don't see the appeal in am office over IPS
@@GoetheNorris sounds like your office is too bright I put blinds on my employees windows and put dimmer switches and nice lighting in their offices so it's not a bright white hospital
But you're not wrong they could be brighter so the answer is brighter OLED not some other technology we already have the technology let's just keep refining it which is what's happening like LG's new TVs
I have yet to make this thing work on Linux no matter what I have tried, the same went for the H10. If you have made it work it would be good to see a video tutorial on how to get it to work properly and stably.
What system? Haveto have a chipset that supports running the m2 in x2x2
@@Level1Techs It is a Dell SFF Optiplex 7060. Dell's documentation says that it should work but I have not managed to get an H10 or an H20 to work on it. I may be stuck having to find an old standalone Optane memory and SSD but I'm not convinced that that will work in Linux either
@TalmidAndy enabled Intel rst? Required on thst model. Then you have to f6 driver install wi does
Let’s see if anyone worked out the use case is write cycles yet
Hey, inspired by your video I bought a H20 and tried to install it in a newly built PC but after installing Intel rst and memory management software I get an error saying that optane is not supported in ahci mode, can you help me fix it?
Need to change mode in bios to rst, and reset up windows
@@Level1Techs thanks for the help, i did that but now the message says "there are no valid disk pairs in your system"
it seems like my motherboard (b560m aorus elite) doesn´t recognize either of the drives (optane or ssd) in the m.2 section of the bios
@@sabazillo did you ever get it working? Or maybe on a different mobo?
Arrgghh, its always the software that is the best and worst parts of everything.
I wish they commited to it more in the consumer space, Optane is such an amazing piece of technology and hardly anybody acknowledges it exists.
Even back when it was first marketed as a HDD accelerator, it did WONDERS to any machine that was blessed with it's presence.
On the plus side. Linux has partial solutions for this.
Yesh! Deep diveeeeeee!
I know they're killing it, but I'd love to see how the 1TB H20 works for desktop tasks on linux with lvmcache/dm-cache/bcache.
I'm sure Intel is working on a new optane consumer drive.
I'll take a good TLC drive, thanks
Did anyone else get GTA Remaster Switch Edition ad on this video?! 😆
The Windows store was told by Ryan that if it blew the gas vapour off the surface of gasoline, that you could put out a cigarette on it, in the last L1T podcast. It then proceded to douse itself in petrol and smoke a cigar in front of the air conditioner. It did not go well
I DID believe what u found!
So, Linux support for this type of drive is ... questionable? Is swapping my 980 Pro for an H20 when I spend all of my time in Linux worth it
Rst probably would be a nightmare to get working but I believe there are Linux versions of primocache and some other proprietary app
The problem’s are the bad driver of rst …. They constantly crash Your sistem 😢
is it good for chia plotting?
Probably not. It still writes to normal QLC nand and the drive would die within months. The increased cost of having the Optane on there would just eat into your ROI
I must say that's kind of disappointing, I was hoping you at least had the option to have the Optane caching managed by the device itself.
This video does not load for me. Others work normally.
256gb optane m2 ssd… could be nice, if it could be used as a cachecto every other drive in the system… it could cost $1000, but if it would work, it could be a worth of it.
Early engagement
Number 1 engage
There's a chip shortage, so this makes sense to combine a chip no longer really used due too having a side-effect and combining them with current chip tech. Still the negative side-effect is still noticeable once you get into very large file writes. I'm sure it will work for most tasks, especially OEM manufacturers who will use it in laptops or desktops pre-built for the consumer where the user doesn't have any real understanding of the hardware technology within the device. I'm sure they had warehouse full with produced optane chips and figured let's use them to meet customer demands due to limited chip manufacturing runs. But for those who want absolute performance they will not be buying this and i wouldn't understand why you would want to. Introducing a splitter like that also begs the question if one is limited by the other and if so what effect this controller then puts on NAND degradation speed.
Can we get that Allyn malt-ah-veeno guy to come by and do a big ole talk about some this stuff again?
Yes, this would be great, listening to Allyn Malventano and Wendell together talking about storage is always really interesting.
every hardware company should talk to this guy, he sold me 15k rig in previous video and now I'm considering buying freaking optanes
I would love one of these in my laptop!
I dunno. It kinda sounds like the Intel driver might be caching data ahead of time in ram, which would not be much different than simply having a bit more ram in the system. What would happen if you ran that driver with two NAND SSDs instead of OPTANE+NAND ? Of course you probably can't, because Intel intentionally hobbles it to only work with certain specific products. Call me skeptical, but I don't really care about a few extra seconds starting a program for the first time after a fresh boot, when that application will startup instantly from that point onward because it will be sitting in ram. I'd much rather have 16GB or 32GB of ram in the laptop instead.
Intel is trying to force a lock-in, basically, for no reason other than they think they can get away with it. It kinda pisses me off. I would love just having a pure optane drive with a decent-enough amount of storage (like 512GB or so) at a decent-enough price. I can't seem to get it without a ton of warts coming along for the ride.
But for a laptop? NAND storage plus a decent amount of ram is plenty fast enough and doesn't come with any Intel warts.
-Matt
I currently have 64GB of ram but I also have an Optane 905P (960GB) SSD. Once you try Optane, you'll never want to go back to Nand flash SSDs even for normal desktop usage. The responsiveness is just too good. When I upgrade to Alder Lake later this year I will buy one of those Optane P5800X SSD and use it as my main PCIe gen 4 drive.
Thank You . . .
Launching a bunch of apps really quick, isn’t that the kind of the OS X was doing like 10 years ago? I distinctly remember seeing people post videos opening every app in under 10 seconds kind of thing. Is that really where windows is now?
A friend runs a business and uses all the office programs. He uses Simply accounting. How does this drive work with that application? Eats resources like a CAD program if you have lots of windows open. What's the fastest SATA laptop drive solution?. No M.2 on his machine. He needs an update not a new system. Double the ram and reseat the coolers. Replace the rust with silicon. What's my best option for this 4 core CPU?
It's too bad that current Optane doesn't support the AMD Desktop experience and from what I understand, by the time that Intel comes back with a non-hedt power user type of platform for the average user, Optane will be relegated exclusively to the Data Center. I figure that the 9900k + Optane was the recent hot-ticket, once AMD 3000 series CPUs came along with 4x CPU-Direct storage lanes for PCIe Gen3 NVME, it was lights out on that Intel dream.
Even as a current Ryzen9 3950x (ex-7700k) desktop user, there is still a part of me that would like to believe that there is a future that includes a complete Intel platform that ties new CPU and Accelerator technologies together with Memory technologies and Storage subsystems, Video processing and Networking making up the package. Since AMD can't seem to build any type of 'Accelerator' to save it's life and seems to rely on using BRUTE force to solve everything, it will be up to Intel for it's finer touches.
I believe he will use the Rocket Lake platform which has 4x PCIe 4.0 lanes directly linked to the CPU to test that Optane P5800X SSD.
Imagine PCIe 5 with this tech,
I have never used the Windows Store. It's one reason I don't use Nivida GPUs.
The Windows Store is great for one thing: Avoid installing Windows Store apps and jump straight into installing 32-bit and 64-bit programs for Windows. Productivity tasks, games, and professional workloads outside the store are a non-issue and a large number of people may run Windows applications without using the Windows Store anyway. Beyond that, there is potential for the platform but there is no real incentive when developing apps for the Windows Store. Developers could simply make games for Steam, Epic Games, Ubisoft, etc. or write software that specifically bypasses any real need for distributing applications through the Windows Store. That may change for 32-bit programs in the future but development for 64-bit programs on 64-bit and 64-bit ARM systems will still be around for a long time.
While my TLC based 1TB 600p will outlive me (576 TBW Rated), my QLC based 660p (200 TBW Rated) reporting ~70TB written with 85% life remaining, will likely be dead within the year. I wish Intel would offer better Firmware support for their products. Somehow the 660p replacement (the 665p) with everything on paper the same, seems to have gained 100 TBW, up to a total of a 300 TBW rating. Seems like firmware and a label/sticker change to me. I would have liked to see firmware come out for my TLC 600p, as having it live forever comes with write speeds that make SATA3 look exotic.
I have a crucial P1 500gb QLC drive with over 150TBW and it's going strong. No idea how, but it is.
I'm riding it into the sunset until it dies. It's just there as a cache for my Nas and writes about 50-100GB a day. So far no issues
so having an intell 600p nvme ssd is bad?....
Yes/No. It's for top tier performance. The 600p works, and that's fine; but if you move a big video file on it, and it's busy writing, the QLC nand it's using will basically reduce your read performance to less than that of a hard drive.
I've seen latency as high as 2500ms (that's almost 3 seconds!!!) On those with continuous writes near 25-40mbytes.
Optane goes fast; all the time. Sub 1 ms latency, insanely high parallel read and write performance. You couldn't saturate the Optane nand if you tried.
So funny that the bootup time with ryzen is still ~20 sec running an optane boot drive.
900p to boot, can confirm. But then I have fast boot turned of and the windows loading screen is more in the 3-4 seconds
that keyboard needs cleaning :D
Way too many ads.
How does this compare to the Samsung 980 EVO? I got a 512GB 980 and I'm not impressed and I want to figure out why.
Because the 512 GB version has less nand chips on it, its performance is slower than the higher capacity models.
But then again 980 EVO doesn't exist yet.
980 is pretty ok, but it's pcie gen 3 so I don't know what you mean by not impressed. What were your expectations?
Noice.