Kink... at PRIDE?? | Kat Blaque
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 31 май 2021
- Every time around this year, we have this debate about Kink at Pride. When I say "we", I guess I mean the acronym. Even though I don't entirely feel I'm part of the acronym, even if I am on paper, I felt I'd share my perspective as an active BDSMer who has fairly strong opinions about when BDSM is appropriate and inappropriate. To me, consent is at the forefront of BDSM and public BDSM negates that in most situations, but to ignore how important the Leather community has been to gay folks survival is a bit much... What's your True Tea? Call in Next Tuesday to give me your brew.
The video version this week is different from the podcast! That won't be a habit, but it was this time around. Here's the podcast: www.buzzsprout.com/1773710/86...
SUBSCRIBE to Kat Blaque : bit.ly/1D3jwSF
Click Below for More Info vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
Patreon
╰ / katblaque
Wishlist
╰ www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls...
My thoughts
╰ / kat_blaque
My looks
╰ / kat_blaque
Book me
╰ ben@gotham-artists.com
Hire me
╰ katblaque@standard.tv
Tip me
╰ Venmo// Kathryn-wilkins
Cashapp// $katblaque
PayPal// cuteartsychick19@gmail.com
Send me mail
╰ Kat Blaque
4470 W SUNSET BLVD STE 107 # 327
LOS ANGELES, CA 90027-6309
(captions incoming)
The NEW approach to True Tea is that there will be a new episode of True Tea every other Tuesday, followed by a Call-in show the following Tuesday. Then the first Tuesday of every month will be a video episode uploaded to my channel. So for those of ya'll that HATE the audio only videos, you've won! lol. It's a happy medium. But please follow and listen to the Podcast! I'm trying to expand and I'm appreciative of those of you who've supported my growth
Also, this week's episode was a great reason why I switched to podcast form. I filmed this video already, but the footage got corrupted. So right now, you can hear the original recording on the podcast and the second recording in this video:
Original recording.
www.buzzsprout.com/1773710/8624697-should-kink-be-at-pride
Set your reminder for next Tuesday! ruclips.net/video/0bYQ6yqDZXY/видео.html
I can't wait for the call-in episodes and true tea episodes they make my day
Cool beans
Thanks mom 🤓
Thanks for captions 💖
Thank you so much for adding captions
I feel like these days people spend more time during Pride Month arguing about how not to celebrate Pride than they do actually celebrating Pride.
Lol pride doesn't seem very fun to me but to each their own
@@KatBlaque Pretty much every Pride I’ve been to has ended in me crying so no it’s not much fun lol
@@KatBlaque I am truly fascinated by the kitsch of pink capitalism so I love and am fascinated by pride, same way i am by english working class football culture, and borderline egg trans Brit lad culture gender play...
If I have to hear one more green as lgbt kid complain about "rainbow capitalism~" I'm going to lose it. Like sis you don't like the fake support that's cool but just shut up and don't buy the products then. Less than 6 years ago it was a huge risk for a company to say they support lgbt people.
@@jessijaneway5093 It's a bit of a tangent, but that's kind of how I feel about all these online leftist dunking in the army and CIA ads. We all get it, the U.S military and CIA aren't actually woke, but after January 6th, we should be glad they're trying to recruit more queer people and leftists into those spaces and not backtracking towards a Don't Ask Don't Tell environment.
It really does feel like some queer people online are so wrapped up in the aesthetic of being progressive that they don't always recognize progress or nuanced nuances therein.
Kat, the number of people citing your video on the grocery store petplay thing was WILD! I saw it in literally every livestream I watched. Thanks for addressing that. It was definitely a very "this educator says its bad! look, these two scenarios are literally the same!" situation.
Wow. I gotta check out these streams cuz I actually have a hard time understanding how folks got that from the video, but again, I don't go to Pride. lol.
@@KatBlaque Sounds like they watched your thoughtful 20-minute video, which carefully drawing distinctions between different (yet related) scenarios, and then found the one part that's convenient to them from which to extrapolate something you didn't actually say. This is why the word "discourse" now makes me hold my head and groan.
2 of my favorite BDSM people of RUclips in the same comment section. I am going to explode!
@silentsledge just a small correction, pastels take is almost the same as Kats, in that kink should have its own 18+ space, although she did reference the vid, she specifically stated that she isn't against mild kink like leather daddies or your average harness. Simply that many people have felt alienated from pride because of hyper kink, and she wants them to also feel included in the community
I even cited her video a few days or so ago!!!!!!
Something that bothers me as an asexual is that people argue against "kink at pride" by claiming to protect children and asexual in the same breath as if that's not incredibly infantalizing. Aces know all to well what it's like to be gatekept and excluded and I hate that people use our existence to do the same to others
Exactly. It's like being verbally bullied.
i heard that the whole "aces are saying kink doesn't belong at pride" was just something started on the internet by exclusionists to create division within the lgbtq+ community tbh
@@askfjk1102 which aces??? Lol I'm ace and I've never heard of this argument
Also being ace doesn't always mean someone isn't kinky
Right. I’m Bi Ace. I’m not a baby. Seeing someone donned up in kink gear makes me feel the same way as I do toward clowns-vague unease, like “this is not my thing”, but that’s something manageable. I don’t freak out, and if you’re someone who would get freaked out by leather harnesses and people pretending to be dogs, well..suck it up. I’m sorry, but your discomfort (or my discomfort) is not their problem.
as a 16 year old who has attended pride as a minor on a few occasions, I really don't care about people wearing leather harnesses. like that's really not my concern. I think that people should be able to wear whatever they want at pride. when it comes to kink at pride, what personally makes me feel kind of weird is dudes in leather dog masks being walked on leashes, as that feels like an act that's being engaged in as opposed to some clothes that someone is wearing. I also kind of dislike that this conversation is about parents bringing their kids to pride, because I think it's kind of ignoring the fact that a lot of queer minors (like myself) don't attend pride with their parents. I don't care about pride being 'family-friendly' for corporations, I care about pride being a space in which queer minors can feel safe and included, because for a lot of us, pride is the only place we may feel safe and included.
Exactly
Pup play isn't necessarily sexual, it's role play that can be sexual in particular contexts but often is just a form of escapism basically. So that's a tricky one. I would say it's not really a sex act, more a dynamic? It's definitely a bridge too far for everyday (down the shops etc.), but I don't personally see it being too racy for pride.
If you don't go to pride, then her comments dont apply to you honestly. You just wont be faced with some of the things she mentioned. You do echo her statement on creating a safe space for children/minors, so you agree with her there.
@@felixstenson1654 fair point! tbh, after some thought, I've kind of changed my mind on that one
@@felixstenson1654 while it isn't always sexual in nature (which can be said for most kinks), I do think all kinks should still center around consent and respect of those around you. I actually agree with op as far as people wearing gear, but wearing pup gear *while* being walked, on all fours, or fully taking on that roll does become a scene- again, even if sex isn't actually involved, its still a scene.
Maybe its just because of the other kinky people in my area, but for me/us personally that's what would cross the line. There's a difference between simply wearing the gear to show your pride, vs being in scene while in general public.
🏳️🌈 I think the idea of separating the SFW and NSFW spaces makes sense, not just for kids (though that’s an excellent reason), but also for people who are still grappling with their sexuality and just want to have a space where they can feel like they’re among like-minded peers without the sex aspect getting involved.
Yeah or like for ace people to feel included! I'm not ace & aware there's a spectrum but i feel like loads of explicitly sexual stuff going on would make ace people feel alienated at an all inclusive pride situation
@@calla1643 yep I’m ace and I totally agree!
I can sympathize but also worry about who gets to decide what is SFW and what isn't. Obvious sex acts are easy enough to agree on, but particularly when it comes to how people dress or how they express themselves, that can get really heteronormative really fast, which is especially dangerous for events like pride that are supposed to be about challenging heteronormativity.
@@saoirsecameron 👏 you hit the nail on the head. Who decides what's too much,and how long before heteronormativity kills pride. We already have much of our history outright erased by straight people, now we want to open the door for them to erase pride too?
@@permaflare honestly it seems really easy, you're either doing something for horny reasons and getting turned on by it or you aren't. People don't not know when they're horny.
"I just don't want to show porn to children" - controversial takes by Kat lol
I think what you mentioned, separating nsfw spaces from sfw ones is the best compromise.. I saw a bit of this at the 2019 Pride in Minneapolis and i think it worked pretty well~
Sending you lots of love 💕🏳️🌈
YESS
I don't think many people disagree with that compromise... but the issue is what is the boundary between nsfw and sfw?? Like, kinksters are *not* campaigning to allow free-for-all public sex... all they want is to wear their leather and masks etc. Yet, it's those mild, harmless things -- simply parading in costume, no sex acts -- that seem to have some folk all aghast. Seems like they wouldn't be happy until every hint of kink is sanitized. Pride is not meant to make everyone comfortable... that's why it is PRIDE... but that's OK. Many of those against kink at Pride seem to think that any level of discomfort is the same as trauma.
@ms honey wearing a leash or pretending to be a puppy is harmless and *NOT* the same as acting out a BDSM humiliation kink scene. Kat literally described the difference in the video, but it's like your brain skipped it. Rewatch where she talks about how her grocery store experience is NOT the same thing. Sexy is not the same as sexual. No one bans sexy Halloween costumes in public.
@ms honey my goodness you're just repeating what I said. Kat was against what happened in the grocery store and no one is disputing that or condoning that behaviour. But simply wearing leashes or pup masks is *not* the same as engaging in BDSM scenes. It's like you're wilfully mishearing and misreading.
@@Sikosm well there is usually a clear understanding between NSFW and SFW. just look at how anime distinguish it.
For example showing skin is SFW, it may look slutty and inappropriate to some people , like those in WoW that would legit get angry if someone wore revealing armor... even though was made by developers....lol that's just being too sensitive. Besides we as a society seem to accept men walking around with just shorts on but slut shame women for showing her legs and belly and some cleavage.
So yea, to me that's all SFW. NSFW is when you are seeing genitalia. People showing penises, women breast(although this could be debatable, but in most modern societies it's viewed the same as genitalia) and vaginas. So yea these are examples of clear differences.
Then of course showing intercourse or foreplay is NSFW. Hugging someone and sexually dancing (tweaking for example) is SFW.
Basically society blurs the lines between SFW and NSFW due to biggots and just extremely sensitive or conservative people, but have been clear for years now. Anything that showing sexual organs or sex/foreplay and other things that a regular person would never want to show children is NSFW. Showing skin and sexual dancing for example are being shown safely in public daily thus are SFW.
So as long as rational and reasonable people understand these differences, it's quite easy to ignore extremist and irrational people on both ends of the spectrum. Basically rational people need to keep speaking louder. Since too often I notice irrational people getting the floor.
Why is no one talking about how alcohol consumption and advertising at pride is FAR more inappropriate for young people than some guy wearing *clutches pearls* a harness?
I think it’s because a lot of portions of society, particularly western society, tends to still have a very skewed and fearful view on sexuality, I mean how often is violence shown in tv and even shows with a younger demographic in mind, but when it comes to sexuality we still criticize with much more scrutiny.
Because when alcohol is normalised as a cultural thing it is less dangerous. As a European, the problem I see with the US’ drinking laws is, because y’all forbid it for so long, it becomes something most people experience before legality anyways. Doing something you’re not supposed to is far more enticing, it glorifies drink, it makes binge drinking more attractive. Sex is not a drug, it is a natural experience. But it is not for the young to see, it is far more complex of a subject than seeing your dad having a bottle of beer on a Sunday afternoon. Corsets and harnesses are cool, and pretty much normalised as everyday street fashion items now, but nobody needs to rock up to pride in full latex/BDSM gear, it has no business at such an event.
@@sp0ngeb00b7 I agree with the notion that alcohol should be normalized to remove the allure. I feel like if I were a kid (or heck, me right now, lol), I would have no idea what was going on if someone walked down the street in "full latex/ BDSM gear". I would probably think they were dressed as either a scuba-diver, or idk Bane from Batman. I don't think I'd consider most clothes a sexual act. Although, I imagine there is plenty of "gear" I don't know about.
I'm curious your opinions on the various countries that require images of diseased lungs and other organs on tobacco products. I personally don't think such a regulation should be placed on alcohol, and am not sure my thoughts on placing it on tobacco products either. Mind you, I'm from a country that does not have such a requirement and I don't smoke, so those are my biases.
@@sp0ngeb00b7 There's no issue if someone is in full kink attire at pride so long as their genitals are covered up. People can wear what they want, just no indecent exposure.
Are kinks inherently sexual?
16:50 I really hate when people make that argument as if a gay couple holding hands and/or kissing is really comparable to people wearing full kink gear.
also, wouldn't the 18+ space be more fun??? D:
It would
As someone whose parents took him to Mardi Gras every year after they moved to GNO, I find this whole discourse confusing.
It really would though
There is already youth pride for kids though
Folsom seems lots of fun
I used to fall into the "no kink at pride" sentiment years ago but changed my mind drastically after learning more about the history of our community and well... going to pride events and seeing how mild they were! Like you'll see more bare butts and kinky things when people go out to town to celebrate hockey team winning -_-
oh edit to add that this is in Finland. So culture might be bit different.
Finland sounds fun 😂
It depends what country we're talking about. The US will definitely have more bare ass than Croatia where someone will probably get assaulted if they come with BDSM outfits.
@Melchior Magni Huh?
I'm not even shocked you're from Finland with how you described celebrating a win😭
@@krahvata so true. About 2 years ago while I was in Zagreb, on the ban Jelačić square, I saw two boys holding hands while walking out from a bakery. And a far amount od people around them either murmured slurs as they were walking by or straight up spat in front of them. I can't even imagine what would be if someone shows up in BDSM leather, not even that explicit or inapropriate.
It's official that kink at pride discourse was over when Angry Birds posted a pigeon leather daddy on their twitter for pride
i only went to pride one time, in 2019, and absolutely loved it. coming from a small town, where my identity as lgbt had felt so alienating my whole life, finally going to pride felt so important to me. because of that personally, i think that pride can be super important for teens and preteens too (even if i was already a young adult when i could finally go)
so this is exactly my same opinion! i personally haven't seen a single sexual activity or porn video at pride, only celebration. nothing i wouldn't bring a teen child or sibling to. yes, there were tons of people in bdsm gear but that's it. that's about the same as seeing a victoria secret ad, and i have seen huge victoria secret billboards plastered on buildings, so this argument does feel very slut-shame-y at best and homophobic at worst.
also may i add: 1) 🏳️🌈 because i finished the video now and, 2) i think it's important to acknowledge both history and present. pride started out as protest and with the leather and kink community being very present because that was what was important at the time, that is awesome and should be remembered and celebrated. on the other hand, we should also use pride to focus on *current* issues and achievements. families with same sex parents may be recognised in america, but they're not in most of the world (including my country), so i don't think it's bad to include family in the celebration of pride because that is what we should be striving towards now
Yay!!! You are honestly one of the only people I actually want to hear from on this topic
Literally my same thoughts during all of this 😂
Love your videos!! I think my comment got automatically yeeted by the death star satellites because of some words I used so I made a shorter version over here on Kat's video 😂
Same!
Same, the only good inclusion into this hell-discourse.
Melina!
So this debate really exploded after a pic of a Folsom Fair puppy interacting with a kid was tweeted, which was slightly misleading as a pride fair, rather than a 18+ fetish fair that someone brought their kids to. Unfortunately, Twitter being what it is, the distinction wasn't made before it went viral, and led into the RUclips debate crowd. To which Vaush stated that kink, such as the pic, shouldn't be at the main fair of pride. He was quite specific, even to drawing a crappy map, that kink should have spaces, but those spaces should be 18+ and that the main pride be family friendly, because gay kids also exist and having pride only marketed to adults defeats the point of strengthen community. Twitter being twitter, once again, took this in the most bad faith way and started arguing whether leather was kink and how pride shouldn't be sanitized, culminating in large swaths of people saying kids don't belong at pride, because pride is about oppressed sexuality. Which, I think is where the public discourse is at, at the moment.
Perfect summary, I'm tired of ppl taking vaushes vid in bad faith when he litteraly spelled out his take for us
Vaush was accusing people of being pedophiles
@@wdviolet8434 Look, I only brought up Vaush, because it was after his segment, the whole thing really exploded into the stupid discourse it is now. I'm not here to defend his content, but even I know that, from watching it, he was doing so out of frustration to people having bad faith arguments in his comment section live with the stream. He's addressed it with Demon Mama and further more in a discourse recap. I hate having to play internet archiver, but jfc this cult of personalities stuff is silly.
Weird. I wonder how did that kid end up at Folsom. That’s an 18+ event. I’ve never seen children at Folsom.
Except he was arguing for something that is already in place as if it's not.
I know this is absolutely inconsequential, but my daughter, 8, who cannot hear the conversation, just glanced down at the screen and commented that you are beautiful.
🏳️🌈 As someone who has only been to London pride, when the kink folk came out it was tame in my opinion, all they were doing was walking and smiling in their gear, there was nothing really sexual about it and i think them just being there and having that level of visibility is so important
^^^^^
This is a little bit off topic but nonetheless this will be the first pride month I’ll ever try to celebrate (even tho I’m closeted) bc I’m finally feeling comfortable w/ my sexuality!
That’s awesome for you!! Happy pride and best of luck to my fellow closeted :)
Happy Pride!❤🌈
Happy Pride!! Happy to find some closet friends! It feels a little less alone
Congratulations, babe!! Hope you have a great time!!
We're proud of you love!
this argument feels like the whole community yelling at each other about a problem that most of us havent even experienced? truly a waste of time
yeah, no kidding. i'm tired of hearing about it.
It's also a decent amount of queerphobic concern trolling from people who just don't want The Gays to be visible.
LOL my favorite response I keep seeing is variations on, "What I'm getting from your 'concerns' is that you've never been to Pride." Like, in all the years I've been going to Pride, I think I've seen maybe one ponyplay couple walking around with one holding on to the other's leash, and even that wasn't in an in-your-face way. They weren't making a huge "look at us and be uncomfortable!!" display of it, they were just walking around in leather gear and one just happened to have a leash attached to his collar. It was more like their version of holding hands than anything.
Lol right? I'm a little busy stressing over how my country wants to take away my access to healthcare to worry about a leather daddy walking down the street.
@@twistedmind3323 You raise a most excellent point, sad to say.
Heaven save us all from dIsCoUrSe.
I'm usually not excited for Pride month bc as a cis bi woman who has a lot of acceptance issues with the LGBT community, but this year I am a first year teacher and am helping throw a Pride event for my campus! So many students have come to me to talk about their gender or sexuality and it's been such an honor to be a person they can trust and can help them navigate those aspects of their lives. Helping them feel less alone and seen has been the highlight of what has been a shit year.
I’m so glad you posted this because I was so sick of people on Vaush’s channel assuming you agreed with him because of the grocery store video, without considering that you hadn’t made a video about kink specifically at pride.
I also went to pride many times as a minor (ages 12-present day), with pictures to prove it. When I was 12 I never had problems or felt uncomfortable around the people in leather at pride. As a 12 year old, I simply saw it as a fashion statement. I was very uncomfortable when Vaush assumed that a child in that situation would view people in leather as sexual, because it felt like he was sexualizing my experience as a 12 year old.
Thank you for making me feel understood and also educating people about kink. I hated people making me feel bad about my wholesome times at pride as a minor, and trying to make me feel shame because I didn’t discriminate against leather wearing people at pride.
The vaush video was hot garbage tbh.
lol the audio is slightly out of synch but ya'll get the point. lol.
Omg I knew something was a little bit off at the beginning 😅
Girl my ass is just grateful for the video.
🏳️🌈 guys can show like 90% of their bodies at any given time, heck they can go jogging practically naked, but throw some studded belts and now it's a problem 😂
~~~Swimmers~~~
This exactly! And if it was women, less people would complain. But cosplay is fine, a lot of metal and goth people wear studded collars. They may get side glances, but nobody assumes its sexual.
@@C-SD and if it was a woman it would be totally fine- ?!?!? What kind of bull is that????
@@eleanorlanpher34 male gaze i think
@@eleanorlanpher34 people are comfortable with seeing half naked women because of how sexualized they are. you see half naked women wherever you go because sex sells and straight men decide what's socially normal or not. but as soon as a man is looking sexual half naked everyone is uncomfortable because it's not appealing to the straight male society
There should be a family friendly pride and a 18+ pride. IT’S THAT SIMPLE
There should not be age-restricting.
@@fmdmdeanon9955 it’s not only about age, there are sex repulsed asexuals and victims of trauma
@@funniestpersonalive2905 Well, make an area of sexual/kinky pride, but don't make it age-restricting. Like, a person should choose by yourself, what he want to watch, and what he doesn't
🏳🌈🏳🌈 we stan a girlboss who actually cares about minors!!
I agree. I would just like to mention at 2:22 AM that I don't know any girlbosses who don't care about minors. Maybe my privilege showing (lol, this is going to submit at 2:23).
@@danielsykes7558 mm same, but i bet one could be found if people loocced
I've been following this discourse for like the full time its been happening on multiple social media sites, and I've seen every take under the sun. Ive seen takes that range from straight up homophobia on one side to straight up transphobia on the other. Ive seen hostility to kids, especially gay kids who may not be allowed to go to an adult centered pride, and also gay parents with kids. I've seen some real puritanical shit too.
In general, here is what i've seen as the main, no fallacy argument. There is a disconnect between generations, where younger people do not define kink in the same way older people do, and don't see it as what the entire community should be. I would say there's definitely some solid arguments on both sides. The Pro-Kink side is right in that kink communities tend to keep pride safe, sane and consensual, and that kink and bar culture should be present at pride and sanitizing pride could lead to corporate takeover when there already is a lot of corporate pride stuff. On the other hand, the non-kink side makes a good point that a lot of people making the arguments for kink are white gays who only get involved with gay discourse when its about pride and don't do anything to address problems with disability accessibility and racism in the community, AND that although kink was a founding part of pride, not all lgbt and queer people identify or even feel comfortable with it, and there should be more spaces for not only gay parents with kids/ gay kids and their parents, but also for Aspec people and people for whom kink related things could be triggering.
In general, tho, most of the arguments are based off of misunderstandings and generational hostility that shouldnt exist.
THIS COMMENT RIGHT HERE 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
yep
you pretty much nailed it.
it really is just a lot of misunderstandings and when you add Twitter into the mix well...you get that good ol' ""discourse""
Exactly, it didn't help you had folks even from the same "side" using "kink" to mean different things (basically "wearing your kink" versus "doing your kink" to oversimplify what folks were implying). I've said it in other places but I'm pretty sure almost everybody is fine with wearing your kink gear/fashion at pride and most folks agree you wouldn't do a play scene in most public contexts (18+ sections and events are pretty typical and well-advertised as such from most pride events I've seen)
@@ladygrey4113 I agree with your middle-ground approach, but it just seems like a lot of people against kink at pride are wringing their hands over nothing, and want the gear/fashion gone as well. Like, even *hinting* at kink is too much for them. Kinksters are not advocating for (or condoning) public sex acts at Pride in the *first place*, so the anti-kink people are either against the relatively tame status quo or have a false idea of what actually happens there.
"the no-kink at pride notices a lot of the people making pro-kink arguments are white gay men"
Then why are they systematically going after the TRANS WOMEN making the same exact arguments?
Pride 🌈 for me has been disappointing. It's like going to SF and hearing how cool things USED to be -- but now it's a playground for Silicon Valley tech bros...
I want the pride that doesn't sponsor Tinder and UberEats. At the same time, I like Taiwan pride, because it has a lot of tents dedicated to queer organizations and issues, which is more of a community building thing.
Like, the stated issue here is kink, but the real deal seems to be that pride is being corporatized, and 'family-friendlied,' and losing the radical edge that spawned it in the first place. Compare Drag Race S1 to S13 and it's completely different. And I think we suffer a lot from going mainstream, because I don't think we're really, truly accepted yet. We're popular now, but I have this sinking feeling that we're gonna be scapegoated sooner or later.
Yeah, lotta people don't know that those famous photos of Nazi book burnings are specifically of Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld's library of pro-LGBT writings and research. Progress is always reversible, and we ignore that at our peril.
We work and wish for the best
Tbh in this day and age I think it's impossible for a movement to stay the same as it did years ago, my take is that we should accept the rainbow capitalism and use it to our advantage, and also create a space to recognize our history and celebrate it.
I mean we have a whole month to celebrate, so why not make the most of it by creating different facets to pride
the problem with this take is that the corporations we keep letting slide through are the same ones funding politicians who are ALREADY scapegoating our trans communities and LGBTQ people of color. this whole playing nice with rainbow capitalism thing is a rigged game. the gays with a bit of money are a perfect consumer base to pander to now, but they are already coming for (some of) us. i want us to want better for ourselves. ask tougher questions of the corporations that want our cultural clout. be better allies.
There’s a world of difference between corporatizatiom and making Pride accessible to families with kids! There are so so many queer people with children, people who have been told all their lives that they shouldn’t or couldn’t be parents who are now building families and deserve a place at Pride to celebrate as families. If we can celebrate our sexuality we should be able to celebrate the children and families that come out of our love. This doesn’t mean making Pride corporate, it only means making spaces for children and families to be involved. Making sure that no one harasses breastfeeding parents (especially trans and enby folk who breastfeed), making sure there are restrooms that are accessible to families by having diaper changing stations and making sure everything is also disability accessible (almost all Pride events exclude disabled and neurodiverse people), making sure that at least some booths have things kids and adults like, like balloons and toys, and making sure resources for queer and trans kids and families are included. There are plenty of young trans kids who need a place at Pride, and there are queer kids and kids from queer families who need that space too.
The biggest problem I have with The Discourse™ surrounding this is that people are using "kink at pride" to refer to VERY different things. I've seen people talking about anything from public sex to just guys taking their shirts off, without clarifying that that's what they're talking about. I don't think most of the pro/anti "kink at pride" people disagree with each other, but they think they do because they're talking about completely different things (which is what twitter wants so people keep using their app) 🏳️🌈
When I hear "kink" I think "scenes". And yeah, I don't think they should be doing scenes kor showing porn) in full view of everyone because Pride is no longer just for adults. Nor should it be! You shouldn't have to be 18+ to celebrate who you are!
Unfortunately, when most people say "kink at pride" they mean "leather chaps." That's not necessarily kink. That's fashion.
That isn't fashion. It's a kink, the reason they are wearing it in public is to show their kink and to hopefully attract people who want to participate with them. I really don't care if they wear it but I am never biased enough with anything to not state the truth
Not related, but really dig Kat's musical taste: Siouxsie and the banshees, Depeche Mode, Cocteau Twins and Prince. On point.
🏳️🌈 We love a goth queen 🖤🖤🖤
Her music taste is basically the same as my moms so that’s interesting.
@@ringer1324 you got a cool mom
@@ringer1324 your mom is so cool
And don't forget the iamamiwhoami posters here and there ^^
Pride should be inclusive but there's a limit into how inclusive it can be since it needs to be a comfortable place for all to comfortably express themselves.
lol bingo.
Thank you for always being a logical approach to topics like this and educating. ❤️
Opinions, like how you’ve incorporated yours, are valid and important to this convo. But so is how you’ve articulated discomfort not being a reason to exclude kinky peeps.
Also. Emojis for the algorithm 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
To be totally honest I don’t like the idea of separating off the “corporate sanitized family friendly” section of pride. I like the idea of creating an 18+ space and I know local events already that do that or something similar but leaning into the corporatization of pride is exactly the opposite of what we should be doing. Pride is a celebration of queer liberation, NOT queer assimilation. With so much divisiveness in the community and so many modern human rights issues for queer people I prioritize making pride a revolutionary space where the most marginalized voices are acknowledged and uplifted over making the most people comfortable. I think it’s great for kids to come to pride with their families, especially kids who are or who might be queer, but making pride a safe space for all ages should not come before making pride a safe space for all minorities and a legitimate commentary on the state of queer liberation. That’s my two cents, at least.
Shouldn't making pride a safe space for people who don't consent to sexual activity come before both of those though? That's an issue that's pretty independant of age and minority status.
@@masync183 a lot of defense of overtly sexual acts at pride is just entitlement to other people's time and bodies and personal space. Not worth arguing.
@@biguattipoptropica very true
🏳️🌈 Simply wearing a leather harness passes for “kink” these days? The problem here is that today’s young people have never heard of the Village People.
Even kpop idols wear harnesses over their shirts/bare chest these days
I've seen people argue against collars too🤷🏻♀️ which essentially is just a chocker necklace, which was VERY mainstream a few years ago
My dad didn't even know the village people were gay at the time, now it's too extreme for pride?
It's interesting too because kink fashion pieces like o-rings and leather harnesses are becoming more mainstream fashion pieces, even outside of alt and punk styles. Wearing them now isn't necessarily an indicator that someone is involved in kink anymore. It's weird to me that people are making such a big deal about it now
I don’t have a problem with that lol. Some stuff is like already regular fashion like stripper heels and that but the dog masks and the pet play wear are something else
"I'm not gonna tell you that you need to get over yourself but..." * reaches for drink * The theatricality, the execution. The laugh♡🏳️🌈
One thing as an asexual that I hate during these debates is people’s assumption / accusation that if you’re personally uncomfortable with seeing explicit outfits and kink scenes that you are inherently homophobic. Leather and harnesses don’t really bother me, it’s the porn and explicit stuff that makes me feel unsafe to attend.
NSFW and SWF areas are the best compromise so not to actively exclude anyone from Pride.
when my friend and I went to seattle pride as teenagers, we were both really taken aback by the no-warnings display of scantily-clad grown men blaring vulgarities on megaphones, performing what I would now describe as no less than stripper dances in public streets. being blindsided like that that as young women/nonbinary teens honestly made us feel really uncomfortable. the whole vibe made us feel unwelcome, and ultimately we never went back. so, the question isn't so much "does it matter if straight people feel offended by the bdsm/kink community at pride" (which it really doesn't matter imo lol), but are we creating a space that is considerate of everyone in the LGBT+ community, especially minors, women, and people on the ace spectrum? the sexual liberation community absolutely has a special place in the history and celebration of pride, and as you said I don't think having designated NSFW spaces which allows people to give informed consent to the content they consume in any way derails that
Pride is also often really inaccessible for disabled people. I’m autistic and have severe asthma and Pride is often a distinctly unpleasant experience. It is often a sensory nightmare, it’s loud and crowded and people smoke and touch you and talk to you and don’t understand why you might look and act different even in a space where that should be celebrated.
Hello fellow double rainbow brigade member! (Also yes to that, I didn’t fit in much at my first pride because I get socially drained easily from masking and I was one of a few STEM majors in our college group going together)
A place for disabled(often autistic) people that I've been to has attended Pride in the past, and I think going as a group with them would at least mean people could understand being overstimulated or reacting strangely - I don't know if you have anything like that?
Still, I probably won't because of the sensory nightmare, but I am looking into smaller workshop and events. Some are even digital during COVID and I may attend one of them as a good introduction, if I can find one that I'm into.
It is loud. I lived near church and Wellesley in Toronto one year, the center of Pride. And yup it is loud. I couldn't even watch TV in my apartment while the music was pumping outside lol
I don’t think pride should change at all, but I do agree it should be more accessible and there should be more pride events that are quieter and less overstimulating so everyone can celebrate.
Man, I just discovered that I might be a high functioning autistic. I thought my sensory overload was just anxiety but I heard it's common with autistic people, plus I had a lot of trouble growing up and I think I have been mis diagnosed with ADHD as an unruly kid, because when I was a kid you either had autism or you didnt, there was no scale. But now with medication that actually works after searching for 10+ years, I can finally go out and live a quote on quote normal life as a young man making it into my 30s
I'm a queer nonbinary parent who attends Pride. My 10yo recently came out and wants to attend Pride. I told her we could go to the Family Pride event that a nearby city is hosting. I'm not taking her to the full adult Pride because I don't want anyone to feel ashamed of themselves or uncomfortable expressing that they are kinksters in public.
This is good. There shouldn’t just be one type of pride event, and there isn’t. In some areas there may not be this option, so I understand why having the conversation about it is important, but it seems like the issue is largely resolved anyway. People are already attending pride events with sectioned off areas or attending separate family-friendly events.
@@genericname8727 very much this. Sex is a huge part of being lgbtq+ but it's not the only part and it's a part that not everyone wants to participate in and that's fine.
Sounds like a nice parent.
This is a great approach. Your kid can enjoy a more g rated pride experience and you aren't suggesting there is something wrong with us kinksters. Awesome parent!
My humble take, anybody who thinks leather shouldn't be at pride should be banned from doing the YMCA or singing Macho Man 🏳️🌈 Keep the energy consistent!
First of all: 🏳️🌈
Second: I have complicated feelings on this issue. On the one hand, I recognize that pride is very much becoming more of an event that young people go to (my first pride was when I was 16!) and that it's important to make space for them. However...so much of the anti-kink at pride discourse that I've seen reeks of "ew look at the gross people doing icky things yuck how dare they" and it rankles me! Like Kat said, pride started as a riot! There's this sort of tendency towards forgetting that pride is not just about appealing to the largest amount of people possible, but about being loud and, well, proud. We do things that challenge people's ideas and conceptions about sexuality, gender, etc at pride because it's a celebration of all the ways we resist cis/heteronormative oppression! Sometimes that means that someone is going to be wearing a leather harness, or a puppy hood, or nothing but a thong. But that *also* manifests as people with breasts topless, or drag queens performing, or people kissing in the street, etc etc. While I'm glad the latter things don't get (quite as much at least) backlash, it feels almost as if people decide that kink/kink gear at pride is personally distasteful, therefore it's bad, therefore it shouldn't be at pride.
Again, I do *not* want to make the case that children shouldn't go to pride. Pride is certainly for young people just as much as adults. It was very important for me at 16 to go to pride and see everyone celebrating their queerness. Especially with the rising awareness of lgbt+ people and thus the possibility of more younger people realizing who they are and being able to accept themselves early in life, I think it is important for young people to be in a loving, caring, and accepting space as well.
I think Kat's suggestion of having specific demarcated 18+ areas for more explicitly sexual behavior/clothing is a good one, though we should be careful not to treat it as a gross, shameful part of the event, just one not appropriate for all ages. (The two concepts are not the same, much as some would like to insist they are.) But I also think that we have to acknowledge more that pride was in many ways built by kinky people alongside other lgbt+ people, and that we can't just deny them a place because now we're trying to appease the straights or the corporations. Appeasing straight people/corporations was never the goal. Pride is about making ourselves known to the world in a way impossible to ignore, because no one listened when we asked politely.
literally my exact thoughts 🏳️🌈
honestly originally I was kinda in the "what about the children?!" boat towards said twinks in harnesses but I realized alot of that had to do with my own internalized homophobia, sexual shame/insecurities, and Western morals mindset.
as long as they arent showing their genitals and trying to diplay sexual acts its ok
I tend to go with "no clothes are inherently sexual, unless they display genitals".
I kinda like what was done at Austin during pride. I went to Pride when I was sixteen, and I distinctly remember there being events and venues for people with kids of varying ages. There were kids queer art or history events, Drag queen book readings for little ones, performances categorized by age, all that jazz. The parade itself was standard, some scantily clad people, some drunk people, but nothing that would be wholly inappropriate for a teenager. And while I don't remember there being an active kink space at that time, knowing the city and its gay scene now, it's hard to imagine that there wasn't one, and the fact that I wasn't exposed to it meant that its job was being done. I think having a diverse, clearly demarcated array of events and spaces at pride really helps ensure that everyone can enjoy it and feel welcome.
I don't know if its because I'm in the UK but this discourse is so interesting to me cos I've only ever seen kink at pride in separate 18+ spaces. And it's kind of a given you're going to see all types of folks dressed in all types of ways even if you attend the parade which is open to everyone. Of course I think PG pride spaces are very important, why can't we do both and include everyone lol? I also think a lot of people aren't understanding the difference between doing a scene in public without consent of those around them and just wearing gear. I mean some people even wear bdsm-esque items as a fashion statement these days so wear even would the line be drawn?
You really covered that well. There's got to be a space for both honestly. There's a whole pride month for a reason. I think we can very much have family friendly spaces for parents and kids to attend together and a wilder pride where sexuality is explored and celebrated with less restrictions.
I agree with the Part of your True tea where you say that: 🏳️🌈
1: Kink walking in the parades is fine cause its not an active scene.
2: if there is an 18+ space separate from the family zone kink should absolutely be welcome/ (which thankfully la pride does)
Age-restricting should be gone. A person must choose by yourself, what he want to do, and what he don't want to do.
@@fmdmdeanon9955no, there needs to be some protection in place. age limits exist specifically because children and young teens sometimes cannot accurately gauge what they can/want to deal with seeing and what could be harmful to them, and additionally, providing separate spaces allows anyone to choose to go there or not. This is not an issue when it comes to parades where people aren't doing much besides wearing gear, but it shouldn't be controversial that a 10 y/o can't just "decide" to go to folsom.
And on the other hand, it's also protection for the adults doing the kink and sex as well. If minors are present, they could be committing a crime by doing their thing, so if there are no 18+ spaces, you're just imposing a ban. That can be ok if it's a public event, but just like how you're excluding kids by not having family friendly areas/events, you're excluding another large part of what pride should be about by not having spaces where sexuality can be expressed freely.
I hear some people saying that it's a violation of people's consent to come out wearing clothes associated with kink, and like... that's nonsensical to me. Discomfort isnt the same as a violation of consent, especially when it comes to clothes.
Having attended run of the mill cons, the moral panic over leather daddies is kinda hilarious.
Not exactly super about the topic but:
To me is veeery interesting to see this strong anti "explicit sexuality" or "adult content centric" pride take, given that where I come from the main pride event is like a big street party with basically just a ton of people getting drunk and dancing and well, meeting new people. There are other smaller and less "party" focused events, but that main one is very much not a thing that I think anyone would really take their kids to, or be weirded out (with that I mean more like people from the community and not bigots) that it is a more 'grown up' event (given the alcohol and making out)
When I found out that in the US pride usually is a proper Parade I was pretty surprised actually!
What nationality are you? The big variances in pride culture across the globe is very interesting to me, as someone else mentioned that in their home country pride is more of a fair or Community event with tents and activists and speeches. Very interesting differences to be examined I think.
@@fluidthought42 I'm brazilian (more specifically from São Paulo)!
And absolutely the differences in how pride is celebrated among countries/cultures is super interesting :)
Ashley’s Animation kingdom Does your country not have Youth Pride? It’s like Pride but for people 20(?) and younger. Children and young adults should have their own spaces where they are safe from adults. Youth pride was fun when I went when I was younger. Everything was age specific and it was easier to make friends in a safe space.
This is such an interesting topic. So In Finland's capital we celebrate Pride for the last week of June. During that week, theres tons on events, for youth, for families, parties for adults and non-alcoholic events/workshops for adults. The biggest event is the Pride Parade on Saturday that is an actual parade of people and trucks going from place A to B. The parade ends in a park where people continue to have a picnic till late evening (before going to official pride party if they are 18+). During the day, the parade and picnic are child and family friendly. Every year the week gets more events and especially more events geared towards kids, teens and adults who don't like parties or alcohol. On the picnic people do drink alcohol (public drinking is allowed and common in Finland) so as the day turns to evening and people start to get drunk, thats when at least the families usually leave with their kids.
@Ashley’s Animation kingdom have you been to a pride event though? they've been pretty family friendly
I've thought about this a lot, about how we can both create spaces where people can continue to express their sexuality and kinks openly while also honoring the consent of others. I sort of came along to similar conclusions as you did, which is having multiple spaces coexist with one another where boundaries are made clear from the start. Needless to say, I got dragged pretty hard for this, even as far as some folks mentioning that I was merely stating right-wing propaganda. I understand why folks are sensitive to this, after all the right-wing has done a lot to demonize queer sexuality. But I also felt a bit shocked that others would take issue with this position, as to me, it all boils down to consent. As a survivor, consent matters a lot to me, and I know I (and some other folks, mostly women) have experienced discomfort at pride because of a lack of honoring on consent on the part of some folks. This has happened to me with men and it always boils down to "its pride" or "its okay because I'm gay". And I am not saying these behaviors necessarily overlap with kink, but more often than not in my own lived experience there has been some overlap, including some of these behaviors done in "scene" or because someone saw my very own existence as a "kink". I don't think abolishing kink is the answer by any means, I think its an important part of queer history and want to celebrate those who seek to practice it. But I also feel that as a trans woman, I should be able to feel safe and my boundaries respected within an event that is supposedly made for people like me.
I've thought this too. Same conclusion, just have marked spaces so people know what they'll see in the area they're in.
I am someone who practices kink, and to an extent I'm okay with kink gear being worn in general areas- even outside of pride (like my collar in my photo, for instance- I dress Alternatively so it goes with that as well as being a soft way of expressing my kink in a non offensive way). My issue moreso is the full on kink outfits being worn around both kids and non consenting parties.
People often argue that pride isn't for kids, and I don't understand that really. Almost everyone rallies behind LGBT youth and children, and want to encourage them to come out and express themselves and be proud and be *at* pride- but want to exclude them from pride the next moment purely because of the issues it can cause with kink/bdsm partakers, and that's dismissive and a bit hypocritical in my opinion. I do get kink being such a big part of pride, but there's more facets to pride than just kink. Much more. It isn't right to dismiss and not allow kids just because it means you may have to go a little softer with the gear in some areas of the event.
I may be old fashioned, but for me kink in any aspect will always be very heavily based on consent- wether sex is involved or not. To me, consent almost seems to be dismissed in regards to pride events, and for me and my circle of kinksters THAT is what's more harmful and disappointing.
formally socially avoidant person here. pride celebrates exuberance in spite of the norms...in the past, awesome people would find that a thing/place/media ect didn't suite them,,so they then would endeavour to create a new kind of space for the like minded..its actually a grand opportunity, to become the solution.
but no, you're right lets tarnish the already fading giant,, be conventional, destroy what upsets us,,and whine about the void left in its wake
I just wanna take a moment to appreciate the lighting, camera, and looks served in this video. mainly here for the conversation but appreciation is needed queen
(/j) Kink? At pride?? Who cares??? No gays at pride. We need to make room for the Wells Fargo representatives!!
ig when i first heard of this discourse i was like “well DUH kink shouldn’t be at pride !!!!! kids go there!!!!!!!” because when i went to my first pride at 16 with my mom and sister, i saw a lot of puppy play and other kinks and sort of felt like it was a sign that i just wasn’t welcome there. i was a young lesbian that was being shown that pride just isn’t my space, and that took a toll if i’m being honest. (i think it’s worth noting i was in portland and not my hometown of seattle which DOES have family friendly spaces and bdsm exclusive spaces where you have to be 18+) HOWEVER. i did not feel preyed upon, personally violated, or any other homophobic shit that i’ve heard as “rebuttals”. i think my personal side of this argument is one that isn’t shared a lot in this argument and maybe it’s bc i’m a fringe case. idk. but i bet i’m not and i guess my feelings on this are also “i feel like the lgbt community has a lot going on rn why are we talking abt this”. but yeah. ig w most lgbt discourse my feelings are complicated. we always gotta self-check for internalized homophobia and this argument has reminded me i have some work to do on how i view gay and lesbian sex. enn ee waze on a lighter note happy pride everyone🏳️🌈✨🏳️🌈✨🏳️🌈✨🏳️🌈
I went to Pride as a kid and all the kinky stuff went right over my head. I wasn't "traumatized" by seeing leather daddies (who were pretty much the kinkiest people I saw). Now as an adult I am aware that at least in my city they have sectioned off adult areas already where you have to show ID to get into. But I also just want to say that this discourse reeks of homophobia and Christian panic "think of the children!"-yes even from other queer people. Most of the queer people against kink at pride are young and so far removed from their own history its honestly sad. They've been taken in by this idea that we need to be "good" and "pure" bc that's the only way we'll be accepted by the cishets. That we have to be this sanitized version of ourselves to appeal to people who would much rather we be silent and in some cases dead. And the adults who propagate this narrative are actively working to destroy the community from the inside out. God im so tired.
Ok but like I think we can also acknowledge our history, and have kink sections, **and** have the main parade be family friendly. It's all abt compromise, and Id say there's people on both sides overreacting.
From the "don't bring kids to pride, pride isn't for them"
To the "collar is the same as a gimp suit"
In order to include everyone we gotta create a space for everyone, I'm happy that the kink didn't harm ya, sadly I can't say the same, and that's why I think this discussion is important.
Yes sadly, most of them are really young and don't know much about our history but that's why we're fighting for LGTBQIA* history to be taught, isn't it?
@@twilotealeaf1714 where im from there r adult only spaces now though. All ages areas r already so sanitized that the kinkiest people u see r people wearing a bit of a leather. Clothing and lack thereof isnt inherently sexual. U could then argue that bikini's for christsakes r detrimental. I dont think scenes (sex acts, bdsm, etc) in all ages areas r appropriate and atm they're not allowed anyway bc of public decency laws. So what a lot of these "no kink at pride" people r talking abt is just...clothes.
I def dont agree w not taking kids to pride but the parents have to be aware of what goes on at them and be responsible for their child if they're going to take them.
@@twilotealeaf1714 how are we supposed to learn our history if we push it to the side and cordon it off from the main event?
@@saoirsecameron it'll still be advertised? When cities have night parades its rather well known. The people that want to attend can go, and those who don't can go home after a long day of pride. Those who seek to understand kinks role at pride can seek it out from those involved in said events.
🏳️🌈 I've seen people argue that couples standing round in leashes and pup gear are inherently more sexual than snogging which as an Ace person...is it??
Also the idea of enforcing a modesty dress code feels like a joke for the Pride I've attended, where there's an annual naked bike ride down the same road a few weeks before.
That last point though ... Some people 🤦♂️
@@danielsykes7558 Americans are the most protestant body-negative culture/ethnic group alive
Please please please keep on doing the old format, i like seeing you as you talk, i felt like i missed a friend who i've not seen them in person for a long time when i saw you on this video :(
Tbh I hate ppl making jokes about how one side is "thinking about the children" because..... Why shouldn't we? Like kink has its space at pride, but so should families and baby gays. Oc the mild kinkwear is fine (leather daddies, fashion harness Ect) , but I think sometimes people can push the limits to a place that I would say....Isn't comfortable for some people. Like idk abt yalls experience, but I've been to pride and seen some rather nsfw stuff at spaces where they allow kids, and that definitely bothers me.
@@bowchickabowwowthatswhatmy3219 phew thank you, i hate how it's seen as a strictly right leaning argument, when contextually it can be used to uplift young lgtbq kids. It's all about how the argument is used. Smh ppl don't know what nuance is these days
@@twilotealeaf1714 also, people who vehemently defend being allowed to do sexual shit around kids is, when you really think about it, pretty concerning. it's unfortunate but kids really do change the dynamic of any area that they're in which is why they should be kept in very specific areas and out of other very specific areas.
I think one of the issues in this discussion is that these talking points are then immediately coopted by the right, who then immediately try to expand them (for example by including „drag“ with kink, as if they were the same thing), so it‘s hard to have a discussion because there are so many bad faith actors.
But then it's not about kink but public decency.
I love how you say “discussions” instead “videos” whenever your doing a true tea episode, it’s very refreshing!
I couldn't wait until you would talk about this topic. I look up at you so much and I value your opinion a lot. So I am really glad you made this video, you deserve a BIG thank you for this. So thank you so so much ♥️
This along with Watts the Safeword's take, is the dialog that we desperately needed.
Been waiting for this one. TURN IT UP!!!
Bird up!
I guess for me, I feel like there's this targeting of kink because people don't want acknowledge the fact that pride isn't completely inclusive of everyone in the lgbtq+ community. Like I've heard so many horror stories about things Black lgbtq+ members have experienced at pride and as a Black person that's deterred me from going. I think it's funny that people are worried about kink, when there's so many stories about people who don't do bdsm violating other people's space and bodies at pride because it's supposed to be a fun and great time and we all love each other and shit. I'm all for protecting children and giving them a space to be proud especially when a significant amount of homeless youth are lgbtq+, but I think certain gay people need to be reminded that um. We're the freaks, it doesn't matter how family friendly (which when was that ever the goal of pride) or sanitized pride becomes when this month is over companies will go back to funding organizations that plot on our downfall, people in office will continue to introduce laws that will trample on our barely protected civil rights, and people will still continue to murder us and get away with it. Everyone should be allowed to be prideful during pride. Not just the "socially" acceptable ones of us. Also we'll never be social acceptable because in some way shape or form everyone in the community has rejected the societal norm.
Wow I never heard of this, do you have any sources where I can read about black people facing horrors ar pride? I want to know more about this.
Shouldn't normaization also be a major goal of pride? It's wonderful to shout "Let you freak flag fly!", but it's also important to say "Can we be seen as normal and considered people, please and thank you?". It shouldn't be bad for some queer people to just be seen as normal.
@@cactushotsauce362 When I say horrors I'm genuinely talking like microaggressions masked as being loving, invasion of space, touching of hair, and just some white people doing the same awkward and alienating crap they do in every day life but at pride.
@@Charolette21 The thing is personally for me, I don't think we're ever going to be seen as normal people to anyone because the whole rejection of societal norms. People think that lgbt+ folks are inherently more sexual than the everyone else, people think that we're inherently preadators, someone is always going to have an opinion. Who exactly are we trying to get to see us as normal, and why does that need to be a goal of pride? It's a moment to be proud of what makes us different, instead of hiding and being ashamed. Something that started as a riot, that initially was about the fact that we shouldn't get our asses beat for being who we are. We are human yes, but we are different and that's ok. Us being normal doesn't come without some kind of assimilation to make us more digestible to people who aren't queer. I'm not here for it, because then it could spread the idea that there's a wrong and right idea to be queer. That's there's normal queer folks and then there's these deviants. Which some people already do and try to perpetuate.
@@tynbwilliams Thank you! You expressed that beautifully 💓
I don't know, I tend to Lean into disliking kink involved with it ...for me anyway
I think that pride is too sexual. It's not even about parents bringing kids to pride. It's also about lgbt youth and teens feel uncomfortable due to grown men (usually) in full kink attire. Now a lot of younger lgbt teens go to pride without parents. I'm sure some don't care but I know some who do .
I think there should be two versions/sides of pride as you mentioned
Thankyou for talking about this!! (Kinda was expecting it but really, thank you!)
Thank you for your take! I have been seeing some weird conflations with regards to nonconsent in sexual situations and seeing something you don't like or makes you uncomfortable, so this whole kink at pride discourse has been pretty frustrating to see. So I really appreciated someone who understands kink and consent discussing this
This exactly. Someone confused my position of consent with just being uncomfortable, so I appreciate Kat’s clear language around this that could help people explain their positions a little better (myself included!)
And also to be clear, I’ve seen what you’re saying about people using “consent” to hide their true feelings of queerphobia, so I don’t blame anyone who mistook what I was saying either. It’s just frustrating to parce it all out.
I hate Pride discourse. People who use my aversion against people wearing kinky clothing or some such thing AREN’T doing it for me. I know I sure didn’t ask for this. If they really wanted to help, come with me and help me avoid the stuff I can’t handle. Don’t shame and blame the people just celebrating and having a good time
Thank you for your thoughts,
🏳️🌈 An ace listener ^_^
Funny how the "think about the children" crowd - which in this case translates to the "think about the aces/people with trauma/etc." crowd - don't actually do anything to help the people for whom they claim to be speaking (without, of course, having asked them).
@@andrewkohler3707 Truth. If they have energy to spare and they say they want to use it on making Pride safe for people like me, they should actually use it on listening. But as is so often the case, we’re an excuse to attack the people they wanted to attack anyway
Its like they only care aroace people when they can use them to win an argument. Its super frustrating
OK but we don't have anywhere near the resources to give everyone who might be uncomfortable a personal assistant to help them. It's far easier and makes more sense to just have separate areas that are either horny or not
litetally have been WAITING for this video
Thank you for this video, probably the most sane take on this I've seen. In my local pride this is basically a solved problem yeah you'll see folks in leather but the organisers are pretty strict on anyone actually doing anything inappropriate during the public events. It's like everyone has forgotten that public indecency is still, yknow, illegal in most countries, regardless of sexual orientation
And the twitter discourse on this is as usual completely inflammatory because it's difficult to unpack what exactly is meant by kink and the history of leather in relation in a few tweets
And thank you for highlighting the difference between 'scantily clad' and 'forcing members of the public to participate in my kink', it was absurd to me that no one was making this distinction
🏳️🌈 I can't with this whole debate. It's just homophobia. Obviously don't do bdsm or kink or literally get naked in public. That's gross lol. However, there's literally nothing wrong with scantly clad men who are basically dressed the same as they would be at the beach or a pool party being at pride. Your kids see women dressed like that all the time. Pride is inherently transgressive. Sorry if that makes the folks at the Verizon float uncomfortable.
Ok but like it's not just homophobia, oc some more extreme takes def read like that, but I don't think that letting the sponsord parade be sfw, and then a night parade be nsfw is a radical take 🤷♀️ I'd say there's bad takes on both sides, as I've seen people saying that pride isn't for everyone, and kids don't need pride, when in fact they definitely do.
My local Pride in Seattle does have a section where people are naked, however they all have body paint on and are riding bicycles, so it's not supposed to be seen as a sexual thing, just creativity. Also the same section/people participate in a different parade north of Seattle that happens in Summer apart from Pride, so again, it's more about the artform.
🏳️🌈
I think it's that leather is associated with bdsm and therefore it's read as NSFW immediately.
@@twilotealeaf1714 how is wearing a leather harness NSFW though? Like, you do realise that nude or semi nude human bodies are not inherently sexual, right?
this pink lighting makes you look literally angelic ✨✨✨✨✨
i REALLY needed ur take on this
Just found your channel and binge watching ... but can not help but notice how beautiful your skin is. Goodness! So beautiful.
True story: "Kink at Pride" pearl-clutching Discourse™ got me to check out my local BDSM scene out of spite.
Well, not entirely lol. I've always been one of those "Oh it's fun to fantasize about, but I don't want to actually do it" types. But fuck it, yes I do. Local dungeon orientation is on Zoom on Thursday!
Lol you're just a contrarian. I can relate.
👍The floggings will continue until morale improves!😁
@@nathanjasper512 Not "just" a contrarian, but...yeah, it is *one* of the most efficient ways to motivate me lol.
@@grmpEqweer Sticks and stones may break my bones, but whips and chains excite me!
how did you figure out how to find and get involved with the local scene so quickly?
i feel like a lot of the arguments stem from a misinterpretation of what “kink” actually means in the question of “should kink be at pride”.
the “no kink at pride” crowd tends to define it as a kink scene, a kink performance ex. a pup humiliation scene. yet the “yes kink at pride” crows defines it as stuff like leather, showing some more skin than usual, etc. and so they argue about that
Yeah that seemed to be what happened. It got confusing when you saw folks using kink to mean different things (Seeing occasionally some “kink at pride” folks really meaning “do kink scene” didn’t help me figure out what was actually being discussed for while). Almost everyone in my friend group (and I think the majority of folks) agree that kink gear/fashion is perfectly fine at pride.
That’s my whole gripe with this conversation! People just aren’t on the same page with what they mean by kink... bc it should be a no brainer not to do scenes around unconsenting parties, like that’s not a “think of the children” thing it’s just a consent thing
but I’ve tried to express that, and people take it to mean I wanna ban skimpy outfits and leather harnesses lmaoooo
@@samkuperman9035 Right? When people were talking about “kink” I was thinking “kink what?”. Kink by itself is a general term and isn’t all that specific. I didn’t know most times if people from either camp were talking about the kink community, kink scenes, or kink fashion/gear or if they really meant to be all encompassing of all possible meanings (still think listing out those specifics is a good thing before clarifying when say X you mean all the stuff you just listed). Maybe it’s because I’m on the spectrum but be clear and specific in your writing folks!
@@ladygrey4113 I’m with you, it’s just a whole mess bc ppl aren’t specific with what they mean by kink
Omg I LOVE watching Kat in these true tea videos! Her laugh and the way she emotes is just amazing. I’m going to look forward to the video format, even if I’m going to keep up with the podcast format as well.😊
🏳️🌈 Pride should be accessible to minors, they’re one of the groups that needs the most affirmation and support.
I've never been so out of sync with everyone else before. Because the ONLY thing i've ever seen regarding this topic is kinksters being incredibly spiteful and contemptuous towards the idea of accepting children at pride. "We were here before" was the main argument i've seen, they said they didn't want them to be here.
It seems like this is an issue because people don't agree on why the debate is happening in the first place. From my perspective it was pretty clear that kinksters really wanted to ban children from Pride.
I think that's one of the issues here. Nobody agrees on what the debate is about exactly, just that it involves Pride Parades and kink. And people's definitions of kink is very subjective, as are their views on what Pride should be about, meaning that the "discourse" spins its wheels in place because no one agrees on what the premise is, meaning tweets about it are inevitably interpreted in the worst way possible.
I agree that kinky people should be at pride but one thing that really annoys me about other people that agree with that is they conveniently forget that LGBT minors exist and that straight parents taking their kids to pride are not the only reason why minors might be at pride. I agree that it is not the responsibility of gay adults to make pride palatable to straight parents but we also should not be alienating LGBT minors. (I’m not saying LGBT minors are currently being alienated but I have seen several people say that no minors should be involved in pride)
I agree with everything you say. I think when people keep hearing 'what about the children, you can't show them that, how do I explain it' they can be frustrated and say something along the lines of 'if they can't handle it, they shouldn't be there!' or worse, which can come off as very exclusionary. While Pride is not inherently about kids/teenagers, they are and should be welcome(except for the specific 18+ night stuff), and it's awesome that there are also specific events catered to them!
Yessssss! Great video. I saw people using your video about the 'incident' at the supermarket and assuming your opinion on kink at pride and using that as an argument about banning any and all forms of kink at pride (which is ludicrous) and I'm so glad that I was right about knowing that you of all people would understand this situation and the nuance.
kat your lipstick/lipgloss colour is amazing!!
and amazing video as per usual ☺️
Thank god someone who knows anything about kink is giving her perspective... idk I’ve just hated this entire discussion lol it’s so draining
We already usually have closed off spaces for adults
@Falcon Fern lol also... nobody said the adults only section can’t be big, it doesn’t have to be a tiny little secret in the corner! Not that the Family Inclusive sections should be minimized, I just think the discourse is being used by SOME people who do wanna completely sanitize pride, which just is NOT IT.
Pride is for everyone, but not always in the same spaces at the same times lol
@Falcon Fern the irony is that all the kink you see at pride, you see on TV or music videos by popular artists. often those are even more sexual.
so looking forward to having a new awesome podcast to listen to. Love your stuff can't wait to hear it!
One of my favorite videos of yours. Very nuanced and fair. Love it!
basically this convo is too nuanced to have a take thats either "yes kink at pride" or "no kink at pride". like, what do these takes even mean??? but then again, nuance is hard to come by on the internet, so.
thats why i like this channel🏳️🌈 a lot more productive discussion starts here, and im grateful for that!
my take is pretty similar. The bigger "corporate " prides (ugh i hate that word. imo those big prides shoudnt even be corporate funded, but community funded) should seek to be inclusive of all ages and the kink and leather communities can be there. But playing out scenes is a BIG NO. Like, use judgement of how you would like to dress too, i dont think asses or cocks should be all the way out and i think thats reasonable. If you cant see it at an average beach (as in like, non nudist) then it's probably inappropriate for the all ages pride. harnesses, leather pants, jackets, hotpants, speedos, etc are all fine honestly. The existence of kinky people in the parade is not a problem.
then, as you said, having after hours or 18+ spaces is a given as well. People like to say that this kind of separation exists already which, yeah sure, but in specific pride events. It's definitely not like this everywhere as not all pride events are the same in every single city.
in my perfect world, as a gay trans man, an all ages pride would be community funded, not protected by cops but by either people within the actual community or hired reliable security, and the parades would be purely made up of communities that have a large lgbtq+ make up, figure heads, speeches, memorials, activities, activism, and of course celebration. Because I have a lot to say about pride that has nothing to do with kink stuff and a lot of it isnt good
my thoughts exactly!!✨
this is what i want :( I'm fine with people wearing clothes, bc that's what BDSM gear is. However i really don't want to see people acting out scenes or anything, which has happened. Beach rules are perfect for general pride. Skin isn't sexual, but acting out kink relationships is. I'm fine with people doing kink scenes in a specified area, so I don't go there and they can have the best time for them.
clarification: or a space for me specifically! I didn't mean to imply "throw the kinksters to the side areas," just a separation in general would be nice :>
@@squishish No worries!! I get what you mean :) and glad to see more people here with better takes than what i was seeing on twitter (lord help me)
@@s2sHoXXs2 oh my god i very much agree about twitter. lol thank you for being sane too
As a bisexual/pansexual man myself, I would love to hear your take on this, Kat - sorry if it's a long comment.
I understand that many people consider pride as a means of expressing themselves to their fullest extent and that for many people that means being openly provocative and expressive and sexual in public, free of the judgment of others. I don't inherently disagree with that, but I suppose what I have trouble squaring is: I feel like LGBT youth are by far the most important demographic to represent at pride. They're the ones struggling to make it to adulthood, they're the ones who are defenseless if their parents throw them out or try to hurt them. They have little resources and potentially little community to relate to. I genuinely think pride should actively cater to welcoming and including LGBT youth and making the space safe for them.
I grew up in a rural area where pride was an hour's drive away and consisted of just a parade and craft show and nothing else I could access, and that parade meant the world to me as a kid. Adults who want to be raunchier or even display kink have the means and resources to organize spaces like the closed off street you were talking about, which I think sounds like an amazing experience for what it is. But I don't think it should be unreasonable for at least the main parade march itself to be more, idk, "dress code" so that it's fully safe and stuff for LGBT youth to participate.
Do you think I'm being too prude-ish on this? I've had some people say as much and would greatly appreciate your perspective. Thank you!!
EDIT: And just to be clear, corporations and cops should DEFINITELY be the first thing to be rooted out of pride. They're by far what does more damage to us. This question has just been nagging at me recently.
That sounds absolutly reasonable, have the aircraft hanger-sized door open and not make the kink-quessy people think "Ugh, maybe not". Open and inviting, as it were.
FWIW, I don't think you're being prudish, but what I will say is that in all likelihood, the main parade anywhere will be following a dress code, and that dress code is the law. At least in the US, most public "indecency" laws are very minimal "cover your junk and buttcrack, and boobs if you're a chick". So you have to understand people are going to react badly to suggestions that we place tighter restrictions on people at Pride than the law does.
my parents explicltyl wouldnt let me go to pride BECAUSE the pride in my area had open sex and porn going on and they didnt want me exposed to that.
This is more of a question, what exactly do you mean with cater to young people? Because i fully agree, i also believe there shouldnt be gay porn playing e.t.c.
However i dont think that seeing a 40 year old man in leatherpants and harness is harmfull to youth.
So if you mean people should be allowed to express themselves however they want (through clothing such as leather or kink *related* items like a pup mask) but should not engage in sexual activity such as sex or similar, i agree
However if you mean people shouldnt be allowed to wear those things, and everyone should wear a tshirt and pant then i do kind of disagree, since someone wearing a harness isnt sexual (although it can be, it doesnt have to be) and i dont believe it "harms" or discriminates youth in any way shape or form, but rather gives them someone to look up to ("hey that man looks really cool and proud i want to be like him!")
@@erraticonteuse San Francisco still allows public nudity for certain events and in certain areas. This is only as recent as 2012 that the laws were implemented though. Also there are other places I'm sure that are not as strict with their laws.
so great to see you! love you! thank you for sharing your take
The thing that I've found incredibly frustrating about the "kink at pride" discussion is that the people who are against it aren't arguing in good faith. In the circles I've been in, there have been cases of people taking videos from scenes being done at Folsom, and then saying that these things happened at "a pride event." Technically that's true, but it's also a big heckin' lie of omission.
When it comes to pride, I think that anyone who wants to go should be able to to and be able to feel comfortable. When kink is brought into the conversation, it gets kinda complicated. Because I don’t want to discriminate against what people want to bring their kinks to pride but at the same time pride should be a comfortable event for people such as minors and sex-repulsed asexuals. So I think that kink can be at pride but not intense enough to make people feel unwelcome, unseen, uncomfortable, or even disrespected.
My two cents out of nowhere, but to me it seems like an issue of not excluding anyone. I can't speak for asexual folks, but having read some personal accounts, I get the sense that some feel infantilized by people preemptively shielding them. I think this is ultimately an issue of the inherent risk of public spaces and not being able to control people?
@@masync183 that is not what kink at pride is though, it’s normally just people wearing harnesses and leathery stuff. it’s not an active bdsm scene (like kat said) so…
the children, the children, oh, won’t anyone think of the children?????
I was waiting for this video, you seem very qualified to talk about this
thank you for neatly summarising my complicated thoughts on the subject because seeing so many people approach it as a B&W debate of "no kink at pride ever" vs " anything kinky in public at pride goes" has been Painful To Say The Least
🏳️🌈 looking forward to the new true tea situation! and yes to all of this! the only pride i've been to is SF Pride, and they have "leather alley", basically a mini folsom street fair in a closed off area that is not visible from the outside that you must be 18+ to enter. your video about kink in the grocery store gave me a better understanding of why kink at pride does Not violate consent and it's disappointing to see people using it otherwise. i'm a sex-repulsed asexual and i have no complaints about people walking around just wearing gear corresponding to their kink communities
Same.
Sometimes when people talk about the corporatization of Pride, they phrase it as if it was their favourite band going mainstream and losing its edge. However, I agree with you that the vanilla family-friendly of Pride is not only useful for children, it's also a way to bridge the divide between the LGBTQ "normies" and the more "deviant" LGBTQ people. I've noticed that there's a certain number of gay men (specifically) who are uncomfortable with the whole "leather and hard drugs" image commonly associated with their community. Having some kind of family-friendly and watered down Pride accessible is a way for those people to celebrate their identity without feeling like they don't fit in.
this lighting looks so beautiful!
You always have such fair and balanced positions which take into the nuance and complexity of the situation. And you leave the emotion out of it which is hard to do for some of us.
Thank you for such an insightful video!
When I first heard this *discourse* I thought about the kink scenes I saw playing out at the family specific event in my city's pride. It was food trucks and inflatable castles. You could tell that the lgbt families were made to be very uncomfortable by puppy play, force feeding, public sex... middle of the day in the park.
I happily attended kink events during pride in more appropriate spaces.
I feel like there are two overlapping conversations happening. When some people hear "inappropriately sexual" they think of carnival style thongs, leather, and glitter. Some people hear it and think of public scenes.
I'm glad Kat mentioned the difference between dress/ presentation and sex
There honestly should be like 3 separate areas. One for kinky folks to get as rowdy as they feel like, one for CHILDREN bc pride is going to be sexual because it’s about sexuality , and another for pride as it is now.
Edit: A lot of people are have my point about pride being sexual misconstrued. And are talking about ACE identities. So I’m going to clarify what I mean. Pride is about openly displaying your sexuality and not being ashamed of who you are. People going to publicly display their affection for their partner in whatever way they feel bc let’s be honest they can and some those displays of love will be way too mature for children who are too young. And no sexuality isn’t inherently sexual I misspoke when I said that. My point was that sexuality is largely about who/ what you are attracted to and that people are going to display that in anyway they choose. And yeah ACE folx go to pride to and party with their partner no one’s trying to invalidate their identity but their sexuality wasn’t really relevant to the point I was making.
Well also sexuality isn't really inherently sexual though, right? Like it's just who you're attracted to
Sexuality doesn’t necessarily mean NSFW. Your innate attraction to one sex, the other, or both, isn’t inherently rooted in the premise of sex (that being intercourse, not biological sex).
Sexuality may not be inherently sexual but when discussing sexuality, you wouldn’t skip over the sex part or at the very least expect it to not be a discussion in certain situations bc that wouldn’t make sense given the nature of the topic.
It’s like discussing gender identity but completely ignoring that gentials can be brought up even though that’s quite a significant component of our understanding of gender/sex
it seems like people forget that aro-ace folks (sex-repulsed or otherwise) also go to pride....
"Sexuality" and "Sexual" are two different things. Also, we are COMPLETELY ignoring Ace people in this conversation. Being LGBTQ+ is not and never will be something that is inherently sexual unless you believe in the harmful crap a lot of Christians push about us.
You’re always bringing the nuance loved the video
YES TALK ABOUT IT!!!! so happy someone finally did
As always Kat, you're bringing the best takes on RUclips. Since all of this started, I've been seeing people in response to the "No Kink at Pride" crowd cite your video, and this deeply confused me because as a fellow kinkster myself I saw the problem was clearly with an active scene. I also think to the best of our ability, kinksters at Pride shouldn't be, like, posing with children for photo ops. But time and time again I've been seeing prominent LGBT creators suggesting that wearing a leather harness or puppy mask at Pride is engaging children in a sexual kink..
To me, I think this comes from the complete lack of awareness that vanillas have to the reality of kink. It's so much more than sex, it's adult play really. Power, emotional intimacy, control, and FUN are more prominent themes to me than sex.
I also host a call in show here on RUclips and I had mentioned recently that kink was a MASSIVE part of Queer liberation specifically because of the leather community's involvement in the AIDS crisis and a lot of what I've gotten in response is people suggesting I'm a pedophile or that I shouldn't associate kink with queerness. It's just really sad because I had some sexual trauma in my past from being forcefully exposed to graphic sexual content LONG before I should have been, and so my activism has always been about empowering people to reclaim their life following religious trauma (I specifically focus on sex positivity and shame healing because that's what helped me) and making the world a better place for LGBT kids. Honestly, I think seeing a few twinks on a float in harnesses is actually the PERFECT scenario for parents to give kids age appropriate sex education. Especially queer kids. Let them see sex as something fun and beautiful that adults can do that should be celebrated. And make it clear to them, that if those adults crossed the very specific line of an active scene it would be a violation of their consent, and that they should hold their autonomy with the utmost of reverence.
Loved your input here. I feel like I could talk about this one topic for hours. I'll definitely try to call in later this week
I was reading through the comments and saw this and thought, "Oh, finally a good comment!" And then I saw it was Arden of Eden. Of course! I watch your show every week. You always have good things to say, even though I hate mayo. I hope you do get to talk to Kat during the call in show. I will be listening.