Non reloadable/reusable, insanely expensive, hard to find on top of that. Precision handloads with brass cases perform better than most world class shooters can shoot.
You said it not reloadable! It's funny how in the age of saving the environment and greenness green that everything is becoming disposable food is chemical GMO garbage and electric vehicles are so cringe yes they don't run on gasoline but they run on slave child labor blood hahaha clown show USA
Agreed. And I’m sure it’s not that hard to improve the performance of the military round they are comparing it to. If they can make it work as well or better for the military for less money, more power to them. But will it outperform a precision handload tailored to a specific rifle? Of course not. Maybe someday it will be a better option for civilian shooters, but I’m not holding my breath.
@@johnnewman8639 in 20 years rail gun technology will be profected and standard in hand held weapons. There won't be a need for brass or burning powder just projectiles.
@@samkay6042 In twenty years, somebody will have finally invented a non-reciprocating charging handle drop-in kit for vintage AKs. Rail guns are still far off, my friend. The energy requirement doesn't match our current rate of advancement with batteries. That being said, vehicle-mounted systems might be another story.
@@dylanwight5764 @sam kay in 20 years we will be living in Idiocracy and everyone will be using muskets again as president robo Biden has been elected for a 6th time.
They already have a "backroom" agreement to produce. 338 norma rounds. If you watch the U.S. army's testing footage, you can see they are using polymer cased ammo in all the different platforms and ammunition being tested.
I have seen multiple reviews and your ammo while sufficient was anything but superior. It in no review I saw grouped as well as generic ammo. Glad to see innovative ammunition design, however being plastic cased doesn’t make it any better (other than maybe heat transfer to be fair). The price was pretty crazy per round as well for your ammo… None of these are game changers outside the case material.
@@amtechinnovarch642 how much heat would brass remove though? The mass of the barrel is way more than that of the brass. And each time you fire it adds more heat than heat removed. That's why the barrels have to be cooled by independent externals, that's why water and air cooling became so important. Slowing the way energy is transferred between the reaction and the components seems reasonable to me.
@@midgetman4206 where does the heat go? We act like the minor insulation in the chamber area dramatically prevents the chamber from heating up. It may for a few rounds but that matters little when considering Machine Gun and Military operation.
@@midgetman4206 Enough to keep the weapon usable much longer in a firefight. When the brass is present it immediately absorbs the flashpoint heat and is then ejected with a considerable amount of the generated heat removed from the chamber. With an insulator, all the heat is placed into the barrel because it's reflected out of the case directly into the barrel. These plastic cases are for pack-in sniper situations exclusively, where rates of fire are low. So, don't go thinking that if you equip 10k soldiers with this ammo and put them directly against an army with brass that you will do anything buy cause problems for the soldiers with the plastic cased ammo.
Also I wanna see per-cartridge weight as well The reason the US changed from 7.62x51 to 5.56 was because 5.56 allowed you to carry more at the same weight, and in modern warfare suppression fire is a must which means you can't have too much ammo (to an extent).
This information, until you or someone else produces test criteria and results, is just another manufacturer repping their brand. Heat transfer is irrelevant in the hundredth of a second the brass remains in a semi-auto chamber. And I would love to see data, independent of course, on the amount of powder used and the actually efficiency. Lastly, prove your accuracy claims. Simple. If this has been done by a third party I would love to see it but have yet to find any.
Go check out whoteewho he has several videos on this stuff being shot from various rifles and platforms. Then for comparison check one of his on Norma whitetail ammo. You might be surprised how much better the cheap soft point Norma ammo shoots over this high tech, high cost polymer cased ammo. From what I’ve seen for performance/ accuracy from this stuff let’s just say it’s likely a good thing for them all ammo sales are final and no refunds. If they where giving this stuff away I would pay for something else 😂😂.
Regardless of personal feelings and politics around the subject, we need companies like this to push the science forward. If we didnt have that, cars would still be using carburetors simply because it would have been cheaper not to innovate.
This is bull crap. High end brass is extremely consistent internally, can accomplish single digit SDs, and produce incredibly accurate ammo at less cost. Oh and you can reload it repeatedly to pull even more cost out of it.
I was curious about that claim. good to know that my hunch was correct. even so, the military is interested in weight savings. that claim in particular has nothing to do with the goal trying to be reached.
I think he’s full of crap also. It’s why he repeated himself 4 times. Trying to make it sound true. 10% less powder and maybe lighter in weight? I have a feeling shelf life is worse. Plastics degrade and become brittle. I bet they got 6 years for safety and 10 years before absolute fragility.
🤷🏼♂️ Questions I have ; #1) Is it Cheaper to produce? #2) Can you Reload it? #3) Does this Case make the rounds Lighter? #4) how is wear and tear, and hold up over time, how do they Weather?
the replies sound like a minimum market angle, and therefore not neccessary for Civilian markets if It cant compete with other Civilian Ammo .. and this company could be on Crutches.. I'd prolly buy one box for testing. But I'd likely just pass.
The heat transfer part of this is particularly interesting. I notice that the brass from my bolt rifle comes out at barrel temperature and that's just a second or so after firing. In a gas gun, we all know the brass comes out HOT. The energy spent making that brass hot is energy that was NOT used to propel the bullet. We normally don't see this waste in manual actions because the heat transfers through to the barrel/chamber. It suggests that brass cases might be improved by use of a thermal barrier coating of some kind.
Agreed. A coating that is heat, cold, chemical, dirt, sand, water and abrasion resistant that would not react with brass nor remove the ability of the brass case to obturate and grip the chamber wall while firing. Hmm. Maybe on the inside of the case, but that's a whole new set of problems. They'll throw a trillion tax dollars at it I'm sure.
I want to know how this affects longevity, because heat kills guns, and if that round doesn't have what is essentially a brass heatsink pulling heat out of the system, what is it gonna do to barrel? They haven't changed propellant technology or they'd be diving into a quarry filled with hundred dollar bills, so they have a burning powder pushing a lead/copper bullet, for a given velocity and weight combo down a barrel and now all of the waste energy not used is being transferred into the barrel of the weapon. If I had the money I'd do it myself, but I would like to see this tested. As far as the higher efficiency claim they'd would have to know the exact powder blend the other company is using to prove that, and the majority of ammunition is loaded with proprietary powder mixes so a comparison is iffy at best, and flash is a byproduct of which round is loaded with flash suppressant or not.
I'd like to see a thermal camera side view of both brass and composite being fired to see the difference in effect of this heat transfer. I still prefer brass but I see composite becoming much more widespread, especially with 3d printing technology. The ability for people to build their own casings will be revolutionary
I had several groups under .5 MOA with factory FGMM (brass) last weekend in my $650 rem 700... If this is more accurate, I'll be surprised, tbh... Pleasantly, but surprised. It's easy to claim accuracy, it's a whole other thing to deliver it millions of rounds on end like Federal does.
@@isoboi702 With his $650.00 Remington 700 and his $79.99 Tasco ill bet the answer would have been 600+ yrds. And he probably tells all the ladies 🤏 is 10" also. Fact is, 95% of shooters can't tell distance with out a range finder or a being on a marked range. Fact is this, I've seen testing down in the real field with this ammo. And what gets my attention is the lack of heat and the lack of muzzle flash and unturned powder. Even when shooting a rifle with a large suppressor installed. Where you typically see residue from the gas coming back into the chamber. This ammo did NOT show these signs. This test where being conducted on a 0-780 yrd outdoor range at approximately 1180 ft above sea level. Yes, Its expensive ammo, But for what there gaining, The DOD will likely jump on it. Because its no worse than they already have. Time will tell. Hopefully there working on a 338 LP Mag round for the MK21. And its baby sister the MK24/MK248 in 300 Win Mag.
If the technology does not produce more accurate ammo it will either continue to be developed until it does or fade into obscurity. The comments about the cost at this time are a pretty dumb argument. When brass cased cartridge's were first introduced I can assure you they cost substantially more than ball ammo. Granted the increase in accuracy wont be as drastic in this case but still, given time, if its a more accurate, lighter cartridge and finds a place in the military industry the prices will come down over time and then be more affordable for the recreational or hunting market.
They won't be lowering it unless they absolutely have to. Why would they? They can charge whatever they like so prices will not be dropping fpr quite some time. Also the accuracy really isn't any better at this point than cheaper brass. So you pay more, get less, and can't reload it. And since it's patented there won't be any influx of competitors.
@@jungleno. that is the great thing about free enterprise, they may hold the patent but if the competition just changes one thing it can and will lead to developing better results and cheaper prices. I am sure someone is working on carbon fiber cases or caseless ammo right now.
Comparing when brass was introduced to ball ammo was a dumb argument, because cost WAS significantly reduced. Time was the cost, and time in reloading a weapon was worth every penny.
brass cartridges were a game changer for the fire arms industry.. ease and speed of getting another round in the chamber was the difference between getting your ass shot off and not.. this junk is just another way to keep people from being able to afford ammo.. you are blind to the plan my friend.. this stuff is trash and I will never buy it!
Very good news if true. 1/3 the weight, using less powder and running cooler all sound great! I hope it is reloadable as well. Will become much cheaper as the production volume increases. Much better changes than I’d expected. Good work!
I can see this as military application more than civilian, where reloading and resource conservation isn't as much a priority compared to weight savings in transportation and portability. If these things can be reloaded, then perhaps utility in the civilian market will increase.
@@joshklaver47 But I suspect that most brass gets reloaded, since I will assume (and it is an assumption) that most cartridges are fired at firing ranges, where the brass is collected for reloading, either directly or through secondary sales of the spent brass. And steel and aluminum case stuff not suitable for easy or practical reloading, are recycled. Ultimately, I guess it comes down to price. Is this composite stuff cheaper per round than brass or steel case ammo?
@@hot2warm You're right that it will come down to price, and I suspect they will find a way to make polymer case ammo very cheaply in the future. It's similar to how we've seen the cost of solid copper and polymer-copper projectiles become quite reasonable. I would never touch remanufactured ammunition, or anything made with used brass. The brass can be melted down and made into new cases, but manufacturers shouldn't be doing anything else with used cases. I've seen remanufactured ammo blow up too many guns over the years. It's not worth potentially catastrophic damage and injury just to save a few bucks.
Got a jam with this ammo, it was a double feed and the bcg smacked the case and it crushed it and the bullet, case and gun powder went all over the place and into the action of the gun requiring a total break down of the firearm to get it back into working order.
If there is cost savings by running polymer cased ammo. Or if it weighed less, cost the same as brass, and was more consistent. I would buy into the concept and hope others would too.
How can it be "more accurate" when were talking about replacement of the cartridge into robust plastic? The projectile and powder type / load is exactly the same? How does it effect "accuracy" ?
Wow, a very professional narration and clear scripting. Congratulations on a great promo video! (100% in Univ. English, and target shooter of thousands of rounds of 7.62 NATO in both assault rifle and bolt action precision shooting competition, (ex army also incidentally). We civilian shooters beat all the regular army!)
You need the brass in most chambers for the expansion and to keep gasses from backwashing into the breach! This is why I only run brass in my M1A and most other semi auto with gas systems
Boy oh boy I can't wait for the cost savings that polymer cased ammo will provide in this shortage and now that we can't get steel case. I'm sure this is the affordable solution like it was originally said to be and what we have all been needing and not overpriced plastic.
I just saw it fire sale on the internet as it was double the price of match grade brass ammo It will be years before they can produce it at a cost effective means
Who tee who bought some and his videos are showing the ammo at $10 a round and groups are bad, also it doesn't run in certain rifles. I'm going to stick with my brass. ruclips.net/video/8Ib7tFmUDQE/видео.html
There will be No long term savings in the market. Only during introduction. Then the price will sky rocket after they have secured a certain percentage of the market Then the company will make Huge Profits. And every place We Shoot will be Covered in useless Plastic cases. What is wrong with Brass again?
Modern technology is fascinating, just imagine how effective intensely compressed and heat treated bamboo (with an alloy core) could possibly be for ammo. It grows so quickly that it would be a great source of supply. Even if the experimental idea where to fail, I'd like to see how it would even perform in general.
@@leehongjin6884 …you’re stuck in the trees and can’t see the forest. The government could ban all brass bullets and start taxing these new polymer rounds and make it too expensive for ordinary citizens to buy.
@@Maxumized Sigh, and what proof do you have to say that the government will do it? Its all "Oh what if they do this?" without considering the realistic possibility of it happening, and the fact is that they won't ban brass ammo because it is the standard ammo material. Furthermore, you said "brass bullets", and for your infomation, the bullets are made of lead, not plastic. The whole bullet, with casing and propellant is called a cartridge.
This presentation is certainly not a exhaustive testing regime comparing brass to plastic, but a slick advertising campaign designed to sell stuff. Products prove themselves in the real world, by real people and not by fancy, high dollar video productions!
WHO_TEE_WHO did a video of himself shooting a three shot group with this ammo using his Ruger American .308. The group was unremarkable, definitely more than one inch at 100 yards. It was just a three shot group because the ammo cost him TEN DOLLARS A ROUND!
I saw that video. My FN FAL gets better groupings without the bench rest he used. This plastic ammo is not so great in my opinion. It doesn't live up to the hype done by the company.
@@willbill548 I suspect the major push behind this is the government. God forbid we Americans would ever have to fight against a tyrannical government, but if we did, we would not be able to use dropped ammo on a battle field. Also, without brass and primer we can't make our own ammo.
When you start thinking, Eugene stoner was developing that plastic case intermediary bullet during the 80! You start thinking how ahead of he’s time he was
Not sure I'd trust it. What is the materials melting point? Does it become brittle in the cold. Does it warp in heat? Is the material hydrophobic? Can you store it long term in ammo cans? Can you store it in loaded magazines without warping. Does it basically add wad type fouling from a shotgun round to a rifle barrel? Interesting tech but so many questions.
You will actually be overheating your Barrel quicker because no heat will be dissipated into the chamber. Also I'd hate to see what would happen to this cartridge when you had a double feed. Would it get crushed and rupture?
I like for visually comparing the 2 rounds they use some crappy, corroded, reloaded Brass cartridge, that looks like it's been reloaded a 100 times compared to their new single use cartridge. With thatbsaid I'm not Disputing any of their claims in the video I just found that framing interesting.
For the cost difference and it not being nearly as accurate as the claims are, I will continue to pay far less for brass and use factory ammo that has produced sub moa groups for me, consistently, at a far less price, and also having the brass cases to reload myself. You are FAR too expensive!!
What happens when the barrel heat is transferred to the chamber after sustained fire, and a round is left in the chamber for an extended period of time? Does it melt into the chamber(stuck), or does the heat not affect the case? Combat can see many rounds during continuous fire situations heating the entire weapon. I'm just curious.
The barrel heats up, but the chamber heats up very little, because when the round fires, the heat isn't transferred through the case, because it's not brass. Cookoff is a lot less likely. I'm very interested in what kinds of temperatures affect this ammo, though.
Probably well over 500 degrees C. The genius in the polymer they've designed is that it's good enough to be molded to single-micron dimensional accuracy (far better than brass can ever achieve in a die), insulating enough to be cool to the touch, strong enough to withstand normal chamber pressures, and chemically stable enough to NOT melt well beyond several hundred degrees Celsius - but melt BEFORE a barrel does. It's like the difference between direct vs port injection vs carburetors. That's my comparison for polymer vs brass vs musket ball ammo.
@@superfamilyallosauridae6505 well said... Someone listened to the man speaking. Hot brass vs cold composite. I'm digging it myself... 30 percent lighter too.
@Aleric c Why would anyone want to pick up a hot piece of brass and press it to his face? I've been a range officer for 16 years and I've never seen anyone do that. Are you a masochist?
.338 Federal Ackley Improved cartridge cases with either •90 grain ALCO Bullets' projectile with the 0.627 ballistic coefficient at 4,300 fps from a 20 inch barrel encased in a 7.2 grain sabot. 3,698 ft/lbs at the muzzle for the projectile, 295.84 ft/lbs for the sabot. Almost 4k ft/lbs at the muzzle for CQB applications. The projectile alone will generate .300 Winchester Magnum energy levels for M118LR recoil figures. 2,368 yards of effective range at standard temperature and pressure. or •253 grain Raufoss multipurpose .338 caliber ammunition, a 40% scaled version of Mk 211 Mod 0 .51 caliber multipurpose ammunition. 0.554 ballistic coefficient at 2,500 fps from a 20 inch barrel gives it 1,074 meters of effective range, 1,174.5 yards of effective range at standard temperature and pressure. The 30% weight reduction of True Ballistics' steel and polymer cartridge cases coupled with the 20% weight reduction of the saboted 90 grain projectile would give us a loaded cartridge weight of 13 grams or so. I think that this would be fun. In a Kel-Tec RFB rechambered for .338 Federal Ackley Improved, with the original flash hider on a 20 inch barrel the overall length still comes in at under 30 inches. Everybody wins, everybody has a good time. #Ihaveahighschooleducation 💀♠️🎯 Edit- 4,300 fps seemingly achievable for Ackley Improved .338 Federal, 8-10% more powder gets 2-2.5% greater velocity in theory. 4,400 fps seems then achievable. 4,380 fps with the 0.627 ballistic coefficient projectile gets 2,400 yards until deceleration to Mach one at standard temperature and pressure.
@@factsoftheconfederacy7151 so far people that have shot this ammo. Who tee hoo channel is a good place to start. Well over a one inch group of 3 rounds at 100 yards. Pretty bad for ammo that costs $10 a round.
I’m fairly skeptical about these sounds like a good bit of BS, and as a reloader only getting a single use out of the casings seems like it would be a more expensive alternative to reloading. Someone is doing a good job of serving Kool-Aid though JMO 🤷♂️
It's not BS. Simple physics says plastic is an insulator, while metal is a conductor of heat. The beauty is in the precision molding process - which, TBH, is nothing new. The computer vision, scale, speed, and accuracy is also all well-established in production facilities around the world. Even the precision for micron-level dimensional quality control isn't new. The only thing that's new is the application.
@@spdcrzy as a mass scale production of ammunition I could see the cost saving benefits of using the plastic casings but that’s only for the mass production side, I personally don’t see how these bullets will have any thermal differences in weapons from brass cased bullets, simply for the fact that all of that fire is still being pushed down the barrel just the same in both cartridges
Plastic islands in the ocean. I'm not a climate extremist but I do believe in less waste and properly disposing trash. That's what I do. This plastic ammo, who's going to pick it up at the range, it's worthless.
I believe they said it can be reloaded or at least recycled. Anyway the production of brass which is an alloy of copper, zinc and tin isn't exactly eco friendly, even looking at the sheer numbers of steps, machines and products involved in shaping brass ammo it's an energy hungry process that involves a lot of dangerous chemicals. Moreover we are getting awfully close to having mined most of the known deposits of Zinc and Tin so those elements will get more expensive as supply slows down. thesolutionsjournal.com/2016/02/22/endangered-elements-conserving-the-building-blocks-of-life/
@@Blackflag.actual I would still use brass. It is reusable and in a shtf situation that will matter for obvious reasons. Look at what happened just with a bullshit virus scam. Hardly any reloading materials to be found. Brass can be used many times. As for biodegradable plastic, it won't hold up to the explosion of the powder. .308, .44 magnum, etc... have high pressures that plastic will have a hard time with. A ruptured case will ruin your day.
Looks like a great product. So, I will take all the brass unloaded/loaded from anyone that discards them when y'all buy the new plastic cases. Just trying to help.
Are you guys owned by Starbucks ?? They charge ridiculous prices also for their products also with very little difference in quality from other brands.
Questions: weight carrying ; weather conditions ; performance in high and low elevations; shelf life ?❤ love to know how these the effects may change things.
He says they don't transfer heat into the chamber of the weapon, because the brass heats up when fired and accumulates before the casing is expelled. 1:48
@@jdukay6355 You don't understand. The M60 has an issue that if you do not fire short bursts and just hammer it, it gets too hot and causes the rounds to fire even without pulling the trigger, you have to cut the belt to stop it from firing. My question is will the plastic stand up to that much heat and if they will could they be a cure to a runaway M60?
@@GABRIELLUCERO1 you're kinda proving my point. The M60's rounds self fire because the brass casing gets too hot and the powder ignites. These guys have a polymer casing that isolates from heat. Meaning, it doesn't heat up. Thus, it shouldn't fire...or at least it may make it harder for it to self fire due to overheat. At the same time, if the chamber also doesn't heat up that much, the lesser chance there is the powder will self ignite. But I'm just theorizing based in what the maker said
@@jdukay6355 No the heat transfered from the brass to the chamber is not the problem, it is the fire coming out of the front of the cartridge. Let me make this as simple as I can. 1 Will the polymer case take the heat of a M60 after firing over a 1,000 rounds non stop without melting? 2 If the cases do not melt and fire accurately and constantly will a M60 stop firing after over a 1,000 round burts just by releasing the trigger? Finally the reason I am wondering is because they are talking about how polymer does not transfer heat like brass and they are using 308/7.62×51 same round the M60 fires so it would make sense that they videotape themselves firing a few thousand rounds at full throttle on a M60 to prove their point especially since the M60 is famous for running away due hot chamber issues.
THE M60 FIRES FROM AN OPEN BOLT AND DOESN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH COOKING OFF ROUNDS. I HUMPED ONE ALL SUMMER AT FT. LEWIS IN '73, SO I SHOULD KNOW. COOKING OFF IN AN OPEN-BOLT-FIRED MACHINE GUN IS PURE HOLLYWOOD FICTION.
So with all these comments I'm seeing, would this be best used for use in sniper rifles/other precision weaponry? The small difference in accuracy could make somewhat of a difference, and they don't shoot as much anyways, along with the barrel not being as hot due to shooting less often.
The claim that heat is transferred to the chamber from brass more than polymer is comete BS. No different than carbon barrel manufacturers claims. Heat soaks somewhere end of story. It's just moving the heat to a different spot. As far as using less powder I can almost get on board with that, however achieving the same velocity with less powder it still has to be producing the same pressure thus creating the same heat if not more focused on a different point. I'm sure you needed a fairly thick case to withstand the pressure so naturally you use less powder yielding higher initial pressure. When will you talk about barrel fouling due to polymer adhesion? Or will you claim the polymer coated barrel increases accuracy as well lol. I'm happy that alternative products are being explored, however the, we need to be the first to the finish line is completely non productive .
Funny how the Americans dumped the proposed universal .280 (7x43mm) cartridge by the British yet here they are now, finding a replacement for the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 just decades after.
Using weapons designed to combat the foes of a previous war. Longer range was desirable in Afghanistan which is what the new weapons do well, who knows what will actually work best in the next war.
Its lighter for sure, not sure how much exactly but enough that 50 cal plastic cases are used in helis to reduce weight enough to be worth having there at least, take it for whats its worth. cost is high because it lacks mass manufacture like brass does but i would imagine it would be less than even steel cased if it was produced at the same volume as steel and brass are because its easier to make the plastic at volume than forming metal at volume and the materials are cheaper than metal to begin with. i doubt its reloadable but i wish people would stop acting like that matters in a military context which is what it is being designed for, just buy brass if it matters so unreasonably much. We'll see about recyclable. wear does not matter, steel cased stuff doesnt increace wear in any meaningful way that matters. If ak and ar15 can handle tens of thousands of rounds of steel cased ammo (which for ak is basically only ever used) with no issues i doubt plastic will change anything. In other words id love it see become more of thing and see enough development to make me question if i should use plastic cases instead of brass and steel
@@l-e-m-o-n8276 How so? If more thermal energy is spent sending the projectile down the barrel instead of heating up the case since that energy has to go somewhere doesn't that equal more efficient use of powder meaning more velocity for the same amount of powder?
@@l-e-m-o-n8276 Yes the chamber will eventually heat up over time (definitely not as fast as brass) but you didn't answer at all how there wouldn't be a velocity increase. If more of the thermal energy is spent sending the projectile down range instead of heating up a conductor then how does that not translate to more velocity or more efficient powder burn?
How much will it be, and if you make it in 556 / 223. I know like anything new out front cost is high, but I am looking forward into the future and with the short supply of brass and other raw materials I can see how this can become a replacement for brass. Looks like war is looming in the horizon and this can be our only way to defend.
Well... I don't want to change it if it's the same cost. Already many people adjust the powder to 0.1 grain units in their homes, and in the case of high-quality brass, more than 8 times can be reloaded. In addition, if there is a barrel of good quality, the accuracy of 0.4MOA or less is achieved. The only advantage is... Compared to the same number of bullets, I think less weight is an advantage. But if it's disposable, I think I'll continue to use brass shells.
If you want to get technical, that is possible and then some. The case is made of the metallic but and the polymer case. Selling the polymer formula and info to make the molds can result in just about every case getting a polymer counterpart. If they bring the price down (Comparable if not better than brass) and cater to the reloading market (in theory this can mean that it would be easier to make wildcat cartridges), then I can say brass cases can become a thing of the past.
Military does not care about individual round accuracy, it';s all about logistics vs total cost. Currently the only feasible application of polymer case 7.62X51 ammo is for GPMG use. If it could be mass produced cheaply and if it stores well, 20% weight savings per case will already justify it.
Weight savings and better heat control look like the best thing imo. Maybe give everyone an excuse to move back to 240b. Is this ammo available for sale?
Question? How is the reloadable capabilities on this composite? Does it weigh less when let's say you have to carry 1,000 rounds, as opposed to brass? I wonder about the overall cost on a large scale? As opposed to brass? Is the composite material made from synthetic materials as opposed to brass? What are the environmental effects? Still KOOL though....
You have to test that in everything including G3 fluted chambers. They break the brass cartridge casing so the solution came up with is internal chamber fluting. I personally wouldn’t use plastic and rather than a cook off from a hot barrel it would melt
SCIENCE! Hopefully, economies of scale will bring the cost down to where we mere mortals may share in the partaking of this nectar and ambrosia of the gods. Pew, pew, pew!
the bottom of the cartridge looks to be polymar over brass with the brass rim exposed. that would make sense but now we're talking about a fusion of two different types of materials .
What happens in extensive firefight, where the barrel eventually overheat, and you still has a bullet in the chamber, and several more in the magazine? Will the plastic melt? Soften? Even if the ammo does not cook, how the gun operates with a partially melt cartridge?
Everyone is switching to environmental friendly ammo. Like the M855A1 has no lead. Etc. Are these polymer casings biodegradable? Are they eco friendly? How long will it take a spent casing to break down?
How does it effect the re use of these thoe ? Can they be reloaded ? If yes does it need any special tools to reload it or can you reload it like you reload brass ammo ?
@@nickwashburn723 they can’t they are also more expensive then regular ammo the only ammo currently out in the market is .308 Winchester and it’s a little over 3$ a round smh your paying more for plastic 🤦♂️
@@SamuraiAtlas Thank you for echoing unconfirmed stats with no proof. You're really doing everyone a service. The price will go down as it goes into full production.
So the chamber heats up more and the case can’t take heat away from the gun? I’d call that a bad thing. Also I’d be curious to see what happens when that round sits in a hot chamber. Will it melt to it?
As with all plastics, oxidation will occur and it will weaken the case, make it brittle. I imagine that it won't store as long unless under reality tightly controlled conditions. What happens after a lot of fire has really heated up the barrel and chamber? Does the plastic case start to melt slightly or stick to the walls of the chamber? Can you envision the problem for gun ranges or hunters? Either you police all your plastic casings every single time or you end up with a lot of waste plastic laying around. Can this plastic be recycled or is it bound for the landfill?
Question. If case transfers less heat to the mechanism doesn’t that mean that more heat is transferred to the barrel which leads to more barrel wear. That would mean that heavier barrels are required for same noumber of cycles which would lead to more towering experience of the operator?
shot gun shells are made of plastic and previously paper so in theory i suppose they work. i would be concerned about extraction from a bolt action claw extractor especially when hunting . you could possibly load and extract the same unused cartridge multiple times a day.
Just some input on the price, it's not too fair to judge it on the price currently since there isn't a large-scale, industry-wide production system in place. Should this ammunition become more accepted and produced, the price will decrease with scale.
Does it bother anyone that we’re gonna be spitting out plastic cases all over the earth that don’t break down like brass eventually does? Just a thought
I think this is a great concept... i have shot a few polymer cartridges without any problems other than the cost... the real problem is what administration or state will ban brass ammo in the future.. they have banned certain style weapons, some states have 10rd laws, reloading components has increased and primers HA!!! Some environmental senator will push a bill that will pass and we spending $80 a box for environmentally friendly ammo.... just like they did with lead waterfowl shells
All sounds good in concept and on paper, practical results won’t pan out as dramatically as they lead on. They also need to unbridge the optic on their AR.
Non reloadable/reusable, insanely expensive, hard to find on top of that. Precision handloads with brass cases perform better than most world class shooters can shoot.
You said it not reloadable! It's funny how in the age of saving the environment and greenness green that everything is becoming disposable food is chemical GMO garbage and electric vehicles are so cringe yes they don't run on gasoline but they run on slave child labor blood hahaha clown show USA
can be used for clandestine ops where they really need the target neutralized.
Agreed. And I’m sure it’s not that hard to improve the performance of the military round they are comparing it to. If they can make it work as well or better for the military for less money, more power to them. But will it outperform a precision handload tailored to a specific rifle? Of course not. Maybe someday it will be a better option for civilian shooters, but I’m not holding my breath.
@@riceburner6739 so can normal cartridges lmao
@@ivansheklebergstein1624 All this going green bs has nothing to do with going green. Bunch of crap.
I’ll stick with brass, it’s reloadable.
Let’s see in twenty years.
@@johnnewman8639 in 20 years rail gun technology will be profected and standard in hand held weapons. There won't be a need for brass or burning powder just projectiles.
@@samkay6042 In twenty years, somebody will have finally invented a non-reciprocating charging handle drop-in kit for vintage AKs. Rail guns are still far off, my friend. The energy requirement doesn't match our current rate of advancement with batteries. That being said, vehicle-mounted systems might be another story.
NO! Battery technology has not had a meaningful advancement in 20 30 years.
@@dylanwight5764 @sam kay in 20 years we will be living in Idiocracy and everyone will be using muskets again as president robo Biden has been elected for a 6th time.
No matter what happens with NGSW, I think you guys should get a contract to produce ammo for the new .338 MG.
They already have a "backroom" agreement to produce. 338 norma rounds. If you watch the U.S. army's testing footage, you can see they are using polymer cased ammo in all the different platforms and ammunition being tested.
Yea. So I can have a few rounds of these..
I imagine that with 400 rounds of a large cartridge like .338, you could save a good bit of weight by switching to poly case ammo.
A polymer case will make any case failure much easier to clear vs brass.
@@RadDadisRad not is it is melting.... just missfire. and missfires are unacaptabe in any kind of decent ammo.
I have seen multiple reviews and your ammo while sufficient was anything but superior. It in no review I saw grouped as well as generic ammo. Glad to see innovative ammunition design, however being plastic cased doesn’t make it any better (other than maybe heat transfer to be fair). The price was pretty crazy per round as well for your ammo… None of these are game changers outside the case material.
@@amtechinnovarch642 how much heat would brass remove though? The mass of the barrel is way more than that of the brass. And each time you fire it adds more heat than heat removed. That's why the barrels have to be cooled by independent externals, that's why water and air cooling became so important.
Slowing the way energy is transferred between the reaction and the components seems reasonable to me.
@@midgetman4206 where does the heat go? We act like the minor insulation in the chamber area dramatically prevents the chamber from heating up. It may for a few rounds but that matters little when considering Machine Gun and Military operation.
@@midgetman4206 Enough to keep the weapon usable much longer in a firefight. When the brass is present it immediately absorbs the flashpoint heat and is then ejected with a considerable amount of the generated heat removed from the chamber. With an insulator, all the heat is placed into the barrel because it's reflected out of the case directly into the barrel. These plastic cases are for pack-in sniper situations exclusively, where rates of fire are low. So, don't go thinking that if you equip 10k soldiers with this ammo and put them directly against an army with brass that you will do anything buy cause problems for the soldiers with the plastic cased ammo.
price gona be the production and copyright issue
Also I wanna see per-cartridge weight as well
The reason the US changed from 7.62x51 to 5.56 was because 5.56 allowed you to carry more at the same weight, and in modern warfare suppression fire is a must which means you can't have too much ammo (to an extent).
This information, until you or someone else produces test criteria and results, is just another manufacturer repping their brand.
Heat transfer is irrelevant in the hundredth of a second the brass remains in a semi-auto chamber. And I would love to see data, independent of course, on the amount of powder used and the actually efficiency.
Lastly, prove your accuracy claims. Simple.
If this has been done by a third party I would love to see it but have yet to find any.
Go check out whoteewho he has several videos on this stuff being shot from various rifles and platforms. Then for comparison check one of his on Norma whitetail ammo. You might be surprised how much better the cheap soft point Norma ammo shoots over this high tech, high cost polymer cased ammo. From what I’ve seen for performance/ accuracy from this stuff let’s just say it’s likely a good thing for them all ammo sales are final and no refunds. If they where giving this stuff away I would pay for something else 😂😂.
Regardless of personal feelings and politics around the subject, we need companies like this to push the science forward. If we didnt have that, cars would still be using carburetors simply because it would have been cheaper not to innovate.
This is bull crap. High end brass is extremely consistent internally, can accomplish single digit SDs, and produce incredibly accurate ammo at less cost. Oh and you can reload it repeatedly to pull even more cost out of it.
I was curious about that claim. good to know that my hunch was correct. even so, the military is interested in weight savings. that claim in particular has nothing to do with the goal trying to be reached.
I think he’s full of crap also. It’s why he repeated himself 4 times. Trying to make it sound true. 10% less powder and maybe lighter in weight? I have a feeling shelf life is worse. Plastics degrade and become brittle. I bet they got 6 years for safety and 10 years before absolute fragility.
yeah I'm sure he's comparing to your typical military ammunition. Far cry from precision loaded Lapua cases.
Won't be surprised if this becomes a way for the government stopping people making there own reloads
Wow you dipshits don't have any proof for your claims but you're letting them shape your view of this style of casing.
🤷🏼♂️
Questions I have ;
#1) Is it Cheaper to produce?
#2) Can you Reload it?
#3) Does this Case make the rounds Lighter?
#4) how is wear and tear, and hold up over time, how do they Weather?
Reduce Reuse Recycle, seems like you just can't stress that enough these days.♻
Way pricier
If that is true then there is $0 civilian market for this ammo.
I don’t think you can load these with a standard bench reloader. I think they use a heater to warm the necks before bullet seating.
the replies sound like a minimum market angle, and therefore not neccessary for Civilian markets if It cant compete with other Civilian Ammo .. and this company could be on Crutches..
I'd prolly buy one box for testing. But I'd likely just pass.
The heat transfer part of this is particularly interesting. I notice that the brass from my bolt rifle comes out at barrel temperature and that's just a second or so after firing. In a gas gun, we all know the brass comes out HOT. The energy spent making that brass hot is energy that was NOT used to propel the bullet. We normally don't see this waste in manual actions because the heat transfers through to the barrel/chamber.
It suggests that brass cases might be improved by use of a thermal barrier coating of some kind.
Agreed. A coating that is heat, cold, chemical, dirt, sand, water and abrasion resistant that would not react with brass nor remove the ability of the brass case to obturate and grip the chamber wall while firing. Hmm. Maybe on the inside of the case, but that's a whole new set of problems. They'll throw a trillion tax dollars at it I'm sure.
I want to know how this affects longevity, because heat kills guns, and if that round doesn't have what is essentially a brass heatsink pulling heat out of the system, what is it gonna do to barrel? They haven't changed propellant technology or they'd be diving into a quarry filled with hundred dollar bills, so they have a burning powder pushing a lead/copper bullet, for a given velocity and weight combo down a barrel and now all of the waste energy not used is being transferred into the barrel of the weapon. If I had the money I'd do it myself, but I would like to see this tested. As far as the higher efficiency claim they'd would have to know the exact powder blend the other company is using to prove that, and the majority of ammunition is loaded with proprietary powder mixes so a comparison is iffy at best, and flash is a byproduct of which round is loaded with flash suppressant or not.
From what I have seen so far the accuracy is no better than a brass cartridge. In fact I have seen better groupings using brass cartridges.
Same here.
And from much cheaper brass cartridges
@@jeffboutilier5075 and you can reload brass cases.
Does the weight of a plastic magazine differ that much from a brass magazine?
@@cameronrobinson8455 Did you mean case? Bullets don't have a magazine, they have a case.
I'd like to see a thermal camera side view of both brass and composite being fired to see the difference in effect of this heat transfer.
I still prefer brass but I see composite becoming much more widespread, especially with 3d printing technology. The ability for people to build their own casings will be revolutionary
IF the primer hole can be stretched out as a tube toward the bullet you will get more velocity.
There is a huge difference between 3d printing and injection molding
And it will immediately be declared Illegal, immoral and fattening by Repressive Democrats "for the CHILDREN".
You still need the metal rims and they may not release the composite mixture or it may become illegal to make due to their Contracts nature
@@ocelblack9823 If someone has the ability to produce it themselves while keeping the ammo to themselves, it wouldn't be too hard to keep it a secret.
I had several groups under .5 MOA with factory FGMM (brass) last weekend in my $650 rem 700... If this is more accurate, I'll be surprised, tbh... Pleasantly, but surprised. It's easy to claim accuracy, it's a whole other thing to deliver it millions of rounds on end like Federal does.
At what distance?
@@isoboi702 With his $650.00 Remington 700 and his $79.99 Tasco ill bet the answer would have been 600+ yrds. And he probably tells all the ladies 🤏 is 10" also. Fact is, 95% of shooters can't tell distance with out a range finder or a being on a marked range. Fact is this, I've seen testing down in the real field with this ammo. And what gets my attention is the lack of heat and the lack of muzzle flash and unturned powder. Even when shooting a rifle with a large suppressor installed. Where you typically see residue from the gas coming back into the chamber. This ammo did NOT show these signs. This test where being conducted on a 0-780 yrd outdoor range at approximately 1180 ft above sea level. Yes, Its expensive ammo, But for what there gaining, The DOD will likely jump on it. Because its no worse than they already have. Time will tell. Hopefully there working on a 338 LP Mag round for the MK21. And its baby sister the MK24/MK248 in 300 Win Mag.
Mass production and consistency? That's much easier to do with polymer casings than brass. MUCH easier...
If the technology does not produce more accurate ammo it will either continue to be developed until it does or fade into obscurity. The comments about the cost at this time are a pretty dumb argument. When brass cased cartridge's were first introduced I can assure you they cost substantially more than ball ammo. Granted the increase in accuracy wont be as drastic in this case but still, given time, if its a more accurate, lighter cartridge and finds a place in the military industry the prices will come down over time and then be more affordable for the recreational or hunting market.
Not when one company owns the patent and has a monopoly on it. They'll keep the prices as high as they can.
They won't be lowering it unless they absolutely have to. Why would they? They can charge whatever they like so prices will not be dropping fpr quite some time. Also the accuracy really isn't any better at this point than cheaper brass. So you pay more, get less, and can't reload it. And since it's patented there won't be any influx of competitors.
@@jungleno. that is the great thing about free enterprise, they may hold the patent but if the competition just changes one thing it can and will lead to developing better results and cheaper prices. I am sure someone is working on carbon fiber cases or caseless ammo right now.
Comparing when brass was introduced to ball ammo was a dumb argument, because cost WAS significantly reduced. Time was the cost, and time in reloading a weapon was worth every penny.
brass cartridges were a game changer for the fire arms industry.. ease and speed of getting another round in the chamber was the difference between getting your ass shot off and not.. this junk is just another way to keep people from being able to afford ammo.. you are blind to the plan my friend.. this stuff is trash and I will never buy it!
Very good news if true. 1/3 the weight, using less powder and running cooler all sound great! I hope it is reloadable as well. Will become much cheaper as the production volume increases. Much better changes than I’d expected. Good work!
I can see this as military application more than civilian, where reloading and resource conservation isn't as much a priority compared to weight savings in transportation and portability. If these things can be reloaded, then perhaps utility in the civilian market will increase.
Most civilian shooters don't reload, so it would make little difference.
@@joshklaver47 But I suspect that most brass gets reloaded, since I will assume (and it is an assumption) that most cartridges are fired at firing ranges, where the brass is collected for reloading, either directly or through secondary sales of the spent brass. And steel and aluminum case stuff not suitable for easy or practical reloading, are recycled. Ultimately, I guess it comes down to price. Is this composite stuff cheaper per round than brass or steel case ammo?
@@hot2warm You're right that it will come down to price, and I suspect they will find a way to make polymer case ammo very cheaply in the future. It's similar to how we've seen the cost of solid copper and polymer-copper projectiles become quite reasonable. I would never touch remanufactured ammunition, or anything made with used brass. The brass can be melted down and made into new cases, but manufacturers shouldn't be doing anything else with used cases. I've seen remanufactured ammo blow up too many guns over the years. It's not worth potentially catastrophic damage and injury just to save a few bucks.
Got a jam with this ammo, it was a double feed and the bcg smacked the case and it crushed it and the bullet, case and gun powder went all over the place and into the action of the gun requiring a total break down of the firearm to get it back into working order.
Send us your email so we can contact you
At 1:27… me screaming CAPPY
I was about to say the same thing 😂
Me looking though comments a post like this1
If there is cost savings by running polymer cased ammo. Or if it weighed less, cost the same as brass, and was more consistent. I would buy into the concept and hope others would too.
How can it be "more accurate" when were talking about replacement of the cartridge into robust plastic? The projectile and powder type / load is exactly the same? How does it effect "accuracy" ?
It's marketing lies trying to sell plastic,
@@anikidwolfy it gets even worse when you’re firing those in full auto , the plastic will melt into the chamber 🤣
@@PhysicsViolator That's what I would worry about. CLP isn't getting that out of your chamber.
Wow, a very professional narration and clear scripting. Congratulations on a great promo video! (100% in Univ. English, and target shooter of thousands of rounds of 7.62 NATO in both assault rifle and bolt action precision shooting competition, (ex army also incidentally). We civilian shooters beat all the regular army!)
Sounds expensive, I'm sure the u.s. government will completely switch over to these ASAP
Military lives by the lowest bidder. It's what makes things being milspec a joke most of the time
@@Austin-lh5cl
Brandon probably bought $90M worth and gave it to the Taliban.
@@DarkMatterX1 Goddamn Brandon, he just needs to focus on making the AK-50
You need the brass in most chambers for the expansion and to keep gasses from backwashing into the breach! This is why I only run brass in my M1A and most other semi auto with gas systems
Boy oh boy I can't wait for the cost savings that polymer cased ammo will provide in this shortage and now that we can't get steel case. I'm sure this is the affordable solution like it was originally said to be and what we have all been needing and not overpriced plastic.
I just saw it fire sale on the internet as it was double the price of match grade brass ammo It will be years before they can produce it at a cost effective means
Who tee who bought some and his videos are showing the ammo at $10 a round and groups are bad, also it doesn't run in certain rifles. I'm going to stick with my brass.
ruclips.net/video/8Ib7tFmUDQE/видео.html
There will be No long term savings in the market. Only during introduction.
Then the price will sky rocket after they have secured a certain percentage of the market
Then the company will make Huge Profits.
And every place We Shoot will be Covered in useless Plastic cases.
What is wrong with Brass again?
@@mikehagan4320 and don't forget you can't reload this either, so you just keep losing long term.
You shouldnt be trusted with a firearm if you think this is supposed to be low cost or an alternative to brass
Modern technology is fascinating, just imagine how effective intensely compressed and heat treated bamboo (with an alloy core) could possibly be for ammo. It grows so quickly that it would be a great source of supply.
Even if the experimental idea where to fail, I'd like to see how it would even perform in general.
I’m calling BS. I seen a video of somebody testing polymer cased ammo and the shots were no where near what you can get with brass.
Composite, not polymer..
I don't think it's a game changer though
Agreed, on top of not being able to be reloaded.
Saw these guys a few years ago at a trade show in Oneida, NY. Very cool concept.
Whenever something new is pushed on me I ask "How would this help the government destroy me?"
Its just a polymer round the bullet is the same so I doubt you'd feel a difference.
Simple, Nothing as it’ll hurt the same
@@leehongjin6884 …you’re stuck in the trees and can’t see the forest. The government could ban all brass bullets and start taxing these new polymer rounds and make it too expensive for ordinary citizens to buy.
the only thing pushing on you is your own stupidity
@@Maxumized Sigh, and what proof do you have to say that the government will do it?
Its all "Oh what if they do this?" without considering the realistic possibility of it happening, and the fact is that they won't ban brass ammo because it is the standard ammo material.
Furthermore, you said "brass bullets", and for your infomation, the bullets are made of lead, not plastic. The whole bullet, with casing and propellant is called a cartridge.
This presentation is certainly not a exhaustive testing regime comparing brass to plastic, but a slick advertising campaign designed to sell stuff. Products prove themselves in the real world, by real people and not by fancy, high dollar video productions!
$10 per round? Brass case will due for now…….
Bass, what??
Like hardbass ??
Like bass drum?
Who the hell said anything about $10 per round. If it's going to coat $10 per round then the U.S. military wouldn't be going anywhere near it lmao.
@Brian Depending on the mission requirements then price is worth it. Better to have an option than no option.
Please make some FN 5.7x28 in a composite casing… that would be like already owning a Lamborghini put adding twin turbos to it! 😎😁👍🏼
$69.99+ shipping for 20rds of .308 SMK? You guys were supposed to revolutionize the market prices but all you did was conform and gouge.
It's always the same when new tech is launched tho, the early adopters pay the premium
WHO_TEE_WHO did a video of himself shooting a three shot group with this ammo using his Ruger American .308. The group was unremarkable, definitely more than one inch at 100 yards. It was just a three shot group because the ammo cost him TEN DOLLARS A ROUND!
I saw that video. My FN FAL gets better groupings without the bench rest he used. This plastic ammo is not so great in my opinion. It doesn't live up to the hype done by the company.
@@samueladams1775 I wasn’t that impressed either
Its actually pretty stupid for this company to even claim what these bullets do for the dag on PRICE.
@@willbill548 I suspect the major push behind this is the government. God forbid we Americans would ever have to fight against a tyrannical government, but if we did, we would not be able to use dropped ammo on a battle field.
Also, without brass and primer we can't make our own ammo.
@@willbill548 it is basically over glorified practice ammo like the Blazer aluminum case ammo.
The concept is fantastic. Can´t wait to see it tested.
When you start thinking, Eugene stoner was developing that plastic case intermediary bullet during the 80!
You start thinking how ahead of he’s time he was
Not sure I'd trust it. What is the materials melting point? Does it become brittle in the cold. Does it warp in heat? Is the material hydrophobic? Can you store it long term in ammo cans? Can you store it in loaded magazines without warping. Does it basically add wad type fouling from a shotgun round to a rifle barrel?
Interesting tech but so many questions.
How about overheating the barrel if the round isn't getting hot
You will actually be overheating your Barrel quicker because no heat will be dissipated into the chamber.
Also I'd hate to see what would happen to this cartridge when you had a double feed. Would it get crushed and rupture?
Can't wait till I can buy some! When are you guys shipping out your first batches for civilians?
I think its not for commercial use yet for a pretty long time
@@cosmichorizon3273 70 bucks per 20 in 308. Holy Shite.
you can
@@georgebrewton3879 what the heck
But hey if the US military doesn't choose this option that means there's more ammo for us civis
I like for visually comparing the 2 rounds they use some crappy, corroded, reloaded Brass cartridge, that looks like it's been reloaded a 100 times compared to their new single use cartridge.
With thatbsaid I'm not Disputing any of their claims in the video I just found that framing interesting.
I love this case, even if not perfect, i can see a future in ten years that you can 3d print these case's.
For the cost difference and it not being nearly as accurate as the claims are, I will continue to pay far less for brass and use factory ammo that has produced sub moa groups for me, consistently, at a far less price, and also having the brass cases to reload myself. You are FAR too expensive!!
I’d be pricey too if I didn’t really have competition at the moment. But I agree, stick to brass right now. This would be cool to try though.
Well said
AMEN TO THAT...THEIR PRICE IS RIDICULOUS.
What happens when the barrel heat is transferred to the chamber after sustained fire, and a round is left in the chamber for an extended period of time? Does it melt into the chamber(stuck), or does the heat not affect the case? Combat can see many rounds during continuous fire situations heating the entire weapon. I'm just curious.
What temp does the barrel have to be for your casings to start melting inside?
The barrel heats up, but the chamber heats up very little, because when the round fires, the heat isn't transferred through the case, because it's not brass. Cookoff is a lot less likely. I'm very interested in what kinds of temperatures affect this ammo, though.
@Aleric c lips are sensitive. I'd never do that with brass
Probably well over 500 degrees C. The genius in the polymer they've designed is that it's good enough to be molded to single-micron dimensional accuracy (far better than brass can ever achieve in a die), insulating enough to be cool to the touch, strong enough to withstand normal chamber pressures, and chemically stable enough to NOT melt well beyond several hundred degrees Celsius - but melt BEFORE a barrel does. It's like the difference between direct vs port injection vs carburetors. That's my comparison for polymer vs brass vs musket ball ammo.
@@superfamilyallosauridae6505 well said... Someone listened to the man speaking. Hot brass vs cold composite. I'm digging it myself... 30 percent lighter too.
@Aleric c Why would anyone want to pick up a hot piece of brass and press it to his face? I've been a range officer for 16 years and I've never seen anyone do that. Are you a masochist?
Damn this us one hell of a round for top tier performance
Now this is a perfect example where technology improves the design of the wheel
Yes!
I'd argue to do your own research before drinking some koolaide
.338 Federal Ackley Improved cartridge cases with either
•90 grain ALCO Bullets' projectile with the 0.627 ballistic coefficient at 4,300 fps from a 20 inch barrel encased in a 7.2 grain sabot.
3,698 ft/lbs at the muzzle for the projectile, 295.84 ft/lbs for the sabot.
Almost 4k ft/lbs at the muzzle for CQB applications.
The projectile alone will generate .300 Winchester Magnum energy levels for M118LR recoil figures.
2,368 yards of effective range at standard temperature and pressure.
or
•253 grain Raufoss multipurpose .338 caliber ammunition, a 40% scaled version of Mk 211 Mod 0 .51 caliber multipurpose ammunition.
0.554 ballistic coefficient at 2,500 fps from a 20 inch barrel gives it 1,074 meters of effective range, 1,174.5 yards of effective range at standard temperature and pressure.
The 30% weight reduction of True Ballistics' steel and polymer cartridge cases coupled with the 20% weight reduction of the saboted 90 grain projectile would give us a loaded cartridge weight of 13 grams or so.
I think that this would be fun.
In a Kel-Tec RFB rechambered for .338 Federal Ackley Improved, with the original flash hider on a 20 inch barrel the overall length still comes in at under 30 inches.
Everybody wins,
everybody has a good time.
#Ihaveahighschooleducation
💀♠️🎯
Edit-
4,300 fps seemingly achievable for Ackley Improved .338 Federal, 8-10% more powder gets 2-2.5% greater velocity in theory.
4,400 fps seems then achievable.
4,380 fps with the 0.627 ballistic coefficient projectile gets 2,400 yards until deceleration to Mach one at standard temperature and pressure.
I'll get back to you on your plastic cartridge once they're less than $4 a trigger pull.
Still cheaper than boutique 9mm these days!
@@dylanwight5764 probably no better a return on investment than boutique 9mm though.
Hell, until they're cheaper than brass, why? At least I can recycle the brass
@@embracethesuck1041 yep, absolutely. Plastic cartridges have to be priced at steel case rates.
This should be the future, it is unfair that True Velocity lost this one
If its cheaper, where do i buy it?
Turns out it's about $10 a round
@@no.4mk126 you know with these ammo prices nowadays thats not too bad.
@@Loneadmin You aren't lying lol
@@Loneadmin Only if you're buying in California.
I'd like to try a few of these some time. Always remember though, at the end of the day, a bullet is a bullet.
Wish I had this stuff for my FAL
No you don't. Brass cartridges are better. This stuff has bad groupings at 100 yards.
@@samueladams1775 source?
@@factsoftheconfederacy7151 so far people that have shot this ammo. Who tee hoo channel is a good place to start. Well over a one inch group of 3 rounds at 100 yards. Pretty bad for ammo that costs $10 a round.
@@factsoftheconfederacy7151 your FAL should be able to do better with brass ammo. Rifle used was a bolt action.
@@samueladams1775 Its like 3.50 a round..4.25 if you factor in shipping. Dont buy the commemorative case..That is just expensive.
Ever heard of diminishing returns? Fascinating concept...
I’m fairly skeptical about these sounds like a good bit of BS, and as a reloader only getting a single use out of the casings seems like it would be a more expensive alternative to reloading. Someone is doing a good job of serving Kool-Aid though JMO 🤷♂️
Have to agree with this. Until we see the results in the real world it’s all just marketing kool aid.
It's not BS. Simple physics says plastic is an insulator, while metal is a conductor of heat. The beauty is in the precision molding process - which, TBH, is nothing new. The computer vision, scale, speed, and accuracy is also all well-established in production facilities around the world. Even the precision for micron-level dimensional quality control isn't new. The only thing that's new is the application.
@@spdcrzy as a mass scale production of ammunition I could see the cost saving benefits of using the plastic casings but that’s only for the mass production side, I personally don’t see how these bullets will have any thermal differences in weapons from brass cased bullets, simply for the fact that all of that fire is still being pushed down the barrel just the same in both cartridges
as a gunsmith i say
polymer wouldn't stand the heat of rapid fire
will just melt in the chamber i assume
maybe good for single shot rifles
How hot are we talking?
If we're sub 200 degrees it should be fine
I will stick with brass. Reloadable and no plastic trash on the ground.
Plastic islands in the ocean. I'm not a climate extremist but I do believe in less waste and properly disposing trash. That's what I do. This plastic ammo, who's going to pick it up at the range, it's worthless.
I believe they said it can be reloaded or at least recycled. Anyway the production of brass which is an alloy of copper, zinc and tin isn't exactly eco friendly, even looking at the sheer numbers of steps, machines and products involved in shaping brass ammo it's an energy hungry process that involves a lot of dangerous chemicals. Moreover we are getting awfully close to having mined most of the known deposits of Zinc and Tin so those elements will get more expensive as supply slows down.
thesolutionsjournal.com/2016/02/22/endangered-elements-conserving-the-building-blocks-of-life/
@@dunedain101 from what I have seen, no, plastic cases can't be reloaded, nor shouldn't. It isn't reliable, nor safe as brass.
What if they made a biodegradable case
@@Blackflag.actual I would still use brass. It is reusable and in a shtf situation that will matter for obvious reasons. Look at what happened just with a bullshit virus scam. Hardly any reloading materials to be found. Brass can be used many times.
As for biodegradable plastic, it won't hold up to the explosion of the powder. .308, .44 magnum, etc... have high pressures that plastic will have a hard time with. A ruptured case will ruin your day.
Looks like a great product. So, I will take all the brass unloaded/loaded from anyone that discards them when y'all buy the new plastic cases.
Just trying to help.
Are you guys owned by Starbucks ?? They charge ridiculous prices also for their products also with very little difference in quality from other brands.
i think so.
I have no interest in purchasing polymer case ammo since I love hand loading.
But a 20% weight saving is a huge benefit for troop load outs.
Composite, not polymer..
@@christianfelix1580 Yup. Thanks for the correction
The problem I see you're in a firefight for 10 15 minutes then you stopped shooting the round that's chambered is melting tell The gun cools down
Questions: weight carrying ; weather conditions ; performance in high and low elevations; shelf life ?❤ love to know how these the effects may change things.
So if the old M60 got hot enough to cook brass rounds how will that kind of heat affect polymer cased rounds?
He says they don't transfer heat into the chamber of the weapon, because the brass heats up when fired and accumulates before the casing is expelled. 1:48
@@jdukay6355 You don't understand.
The M60 has an issue that if you do not fire short bursts and just hammer it, it gets too hot and causes the rounds to fire even without pulling the trigger, you have to cut the belt to stop it from firing.
My question is will the plastic stand up to that much heat and if they will could they be a cure to a runaway M60?
@@GABRIELLUCERO1 you're kinda proving my point. The M60's rounds self fire because the brass casing gets too hot and the powder ignites. These guys have a polymer casing that isolates from heat. Meaning, it doesn't heat up. Thus, it shouldn't fire...or at least it may make it harder for it to self fire due to overheat. At the same time, if the chamber also doesn't heat up that much, the lesser chance there is the powder will self ignite. But I'm just theorizing based in what the maker said
@@jdukay6355 No the heat transfered from the brass to the chamber is not the problem, it is the fire coming out of the front of the cartridge.
Let me make this as simple as I can.
1 Will the polymer case take the heat of a M60 after firing over a 1,000 rounds non stop without melting?
2 If the cases do not melt and fire accurately and constantly will a M60 stop firing after over a 1,000 round burts just by releasing the trigger?
Finally the reason I am wondering is because they are talking about how polymer does not transfer heat like brass and they are using 308/7.62×51 same round the M60 fires so it would make sense that they videotape themselves firing a few thousand rounds at full throttle on a M60 to prove their point especially since the M60 is famous for running away due hot chamber issues.
THE M60 FIRES FROM AN OPEN BOLT AND DOESN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH COOKING OFF ROUNDS. I HUMPED ONE ALL SUMMER AT FT. LEWIS IN '73, SO I SHOULD KNOW. COOKING OFF IN AN OPEN-BOLT-FIRED MACHINE GUN IS PURE HOLLYWOOD FICTION.
So with all these comments I'm seeing, would this be best used for use in sniper rifles/other precision weaponry? The small difference in accuracy could make somewhat of a difference, and they don't shoot as much anyways, along with the barrel not being as hot due to shooting less often.
The claim that heat is transferred to the chamber from brass more than polymer is comete BS. No different than carbon barrel manufacturers claims. Heat soaks somewhere end of story. It's just moving the heat to a different spot.
As far as using less powder I can almost get on board with that, however achieving the same velocity with less powder it still has to be producing the same pressure thus creating the same heat if not more focused on a different point. I'm sure you needed a fairly thick case to withstand the pressure so naturally you use less powder yielding higher initial pressure.
When will you talk about barrel fouling due to polymer adhesion? Or will you claim the polymer coated barrel increases accuracy as well lol.
I'm happy that alternative products are being explored, however the, we need to be the first to the finish line is completely non productive .
You sound knowledgeable in this subject
These are all great points
@@offensivecreampie3015 Not really, he's confusing composite rounds with polymer, HUGE difference..
Dipshit these aren't polymer rounds.
What tremendous advantages. My only concern is reloads. How can we get the material to do ourselves? In other words, who controls the supply chain?
Funny how the Americans dumped the proposed universal .280 (7x43mm) cartridge by the British yet here they are now, finding a replacement for the 5.56x45 and 7.62x51 just decades after.
Using weapons designed to combat the foes of a previous war. Longer range was desirable in Afghanistan which is what the new weapons do well, who knows what will actually work best in the next war.
Is it lighter than brass? Cheaper than brass? Reloadable? Recyclable? What's the wear on the gun like?
Its lighter for sure, not sure how much exactly but enough that 50 cal plastic cases are used in helis to reduce weight enough to be worth having there at least, take it for whats its worth. cost is high because it lacks mass manufacture like brass does but i would imagine it would be less than even steel cased if it was produced at the same volume as steel and brass are because its easier to make the plastic at volume than forming metal at volume and the materials are cheaper than metal to begin with. i doubt its reloadable but i wish people would stop acting like that matters in a military context which is what it is being designed for, just buy brass if it matters so unreasonably much. We'll see about recyclable. wear does not matter, steel cased stuff doesnt increace wear in any meaningful way that matters. If ak and ar15 can handle tens of thousands of rounds of steel cased ammo (which for ak is basically only ever used) with no issues i doubt plastic will change anything. In other words id love it see become more of thing and see enough development to make me question if i should use plastic cases instead of brass and steel
I call bs!
ok, like it changes anything.
Wonderful idea. Hope it works out
You've told half truths deliberately here.
Can you elaborate?
@@Kevin117 yes, becoz is plastic, it don make it more speedz
@@l-e-m-o-n8276
How so? If more thermal energy is spent sending the projectile down the barrel instead of heating up the case since that energy has to go somewhere doesn't that equal more efficient use of powder meaning more velocity for the same amount of powder?
@@MrTappers7 chamber is metals stillz. Will hold warm bro
@@l-e-m-o-n8276
Yes the chamber will eventually heat up over time (definitely not as fast as brass) but you didn't answer at all how there wouldn't be a velocity increase. If more of the thermal energy is spent sending the projectile down range instead of heating up a conductor then how does that not translate to more velocity or more efficient powder burn?
How much will it be, and if you make it in 556 / 223. I know like anything new out front cost is high, but I am looking forward into the future and with the short supply of brass and other raw materials I can see how this can become a replacement for brass. Looks like war is looming in the horizon and this can be our only way to defend.
Well... I don't want to change it if it's the same cost.
Already many people adjust the powder to 0.1 grain units in their homes, and in the case of high-quality brass, more than 8 times can be reloaded. In addition, if there is a barrel of good quality, the accuracy of 0.4MOA or less is achieved.
The only advantage is... Compared to the same number of bullets, I think less weight is an advantage. But if it's disposable, I think I'll continue to use brass shells.
I wish they could make ammo in every caliber for the public.
If you want to get technical, that is possible and then some.
The case is made of the metallic but and the polymer case. Selling the polymer formula and info to make the molds can result in just about every case getting a polymer counterpart. If they bring the price down (Comparable if not better than brass) and cater to the reloading market (in theory this can mean that it would be easier to make wildcat cartridges), then I can say brass cases can become a thing of the past.
There goes my hobby and passion 1 Reloading !
Military does not care about individual round accuracy, it';s all about logistics vs total cost. Currently the only feasible application of polymer case 7.62X51 ammo is for GPMG use. If it could be mass produced cheaply and if it stores well, 20% weight savings per case will already justify it.
Weight savings and better heat control look like the best thing imo. Maybe give everyone an excuse to move back to 240b. Is this ammo available for sale?
ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT. WHEN OH WHEN WILL YOU GRACE THE SHOOTING PUBLIC?
.308 and PISTOL ROUNDS. .45ACP 9MM ETC.
Question?
How is the reloadable capabilities on this composite?
Does it weigh less when let's say you have to carry 1,000 rounds, as opposed to brass?
I wonder about the overall cost on a large scale? As opposed to brass?
Is the composite material made from synthetic materials as opposed to brass?
What are the environmental effects?
Still KOOL though....
Sounds like the industry is evolving, but I'll wait until the price is right.
Fascinating! and from a military standpoint, the slightly lighter weight would be an advantage. Are they reloadable?
You have to test that in everything including G3 fluted chambers. They break the brass cartridge casing so the solution came up with is internal chamber fluting. I personally wouldn’t use plastic and rather than a cook off from a hot barrel it would melt
SCIENCE! Hopefully, economies of scale will bring the cost down to where we mere mortals may share in the partaking of this nectar and ambrosia of the gods. Pew, pew, pew!
OK that’s freaking crazy, awesome!
I hope these are perfected, seems like a polymer case will be much more cost effective than brass, probably cheaper to produce too
the bottom of the cartridge looks to be polymar over brass with the brass rim exposed. that would make sense but now we're talking about a fusion of two different types of materials .
Can you reload the composite cases? Seems like it's just a great design brass manufacturers could benefit from.
You know what the news is gonna say; "kids are now 3d printing assault rifle ammo"
Any chance you guys are going to sell any for less than $4pr? I thought a major part of this was cost efficiency. Did i miss something?
What happens in extensive firefight, where the barrel eventually overheat, and you still has a bullet in the chamber, and several more in the magazine?
Will the plastic melt? Soften? Even if the ammo does not cook, how the gun operates with a partially melt cartridge?
Then it's back to an open bolt design.
The casing is made to get hot and not melt so the gun doesn't get hot.
Ok, sweet. Question is can you reload them?
Everyone is switching to environmental friendly ammo. Like the M855A1 has no lead. Etc. Are these polymer casings biodegradable? Are they eco friendly? How long will it take a spent casing to break down?
How does it effect the re use of these thoe ? Can they be reloaded ? If yes does it need any special tools to reload it or can you reload it like you reload brass ammo ?
I highly doubt they can be reloaded
@@nickwashburn723 they can’t they are also more expensive then regular ammo the only ammo currently out in the market is .308 Winchester and it’s a little over 3$ a round smh your paying more for plastic 🤦♂️
@@SamuraiAtlas Thank you for echoing unconfirmed stats with no proof. You're really doing everyone a service. The price will go down as it goes into full production.
@@somerandommen what unconfirmed stats am I sharing ?
So the chamber heats up more and the case can’t take heat away from the gun? I’d call that a bad thing. Also I’d be curious to see what happens when that round sits in a hot chamber. Will it melt to it?
As with all plastics, oxidation will occur and it will weaken the case, make it brittle. I imagine that it won't store as long unless under reality tightly controlled conditions.
What happens after a lot of fire has really heated up the barrel and chamber? Does the plastic case start to melt slightly or stick to the walls of the chamber?
Can you envision the problem for gun ranges or hunters? Either you police all your plastic casings every single time or you end up with a lot of waste plastic laying around. Can this plastic be recycled or is it bound for the landfill?
This would pass through Electromagnetic Armor like butter.
Question. If case transfers less heat to the mechanism doesn’t that mean that more heat is transferred to the barrel which leads to more barrel wear. That would mean that heavier barrels are required for same noumber of cycles which would lead to more towering experience of the operator?
shot gun shells are made of plastic and previously paper so in theory i suppose they work. i would be concerned about extraction from a bolt action claw extractor especially when hunting . you could possibly load and extract the same unused cartridge multiple times a day.
Just some input on the price, it's not too fair to judge it on the price currently since there isn't a large-scale, industry-wide production system in place. Should this ammunition become more accepted and produced, the price will decrease with scale.
Does it bother anyone that we’re gonna be spitting out plastic cases all over the earth that don’t break down like brass eventually does? Just a thought
I think this is a great concept... i have shot a few polymer cartridges without any problems other than the cost... the real problem is what administration or state will ban brass ammo in the future.. they have banned certain style weapons, some states have 10rd laws, reloading components has increased and primers HA!!! Some environmental senator will push a bill that will pass and we spending $80 a box for environmentally friendly ammo.... just like they did with lead waterfowl shells
All sounds good in concept and on paper, practical results won’t pan out as dramatically as they lead on.
They also need to unbridge the optic on their AR.
How difficult is it to manufacture polymer cases compared to brass cases? How about cost? Is it reloadable? Can it be recycled?