Or, maybe the problem is we're seeing the church as an organization, business, or franchise and we need to get back to equipping the saints, teaching God's word, loving people, caring for people, shepherding people, and allow the Holy Spirit to grow the church?
After much contemplation about this over last year, I think now see it’s Apostles that are the leaders over seeing the pastors, prophets, teachers, evangelists. Many apostles are called pastors and sadly many pastors take on leadership of whole church but they are not going to make the tough decisions. So if say PASTORS DONT GROW CHURCHES APOSTLES DO With strategy from and through Holy Spirit
There is no such distinction in scripture, the roles are always 'Pastors and Teachers' or 'Pastors and Elders', not 'Leaders' Eph.4. They are called to build the church not through carnal 'leadership' schemes or structures as proposed here but by 'Shepherding the flock of God' 1 Peter 5:1-4 'So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight,[a] not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you;[b] not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.' The simple, but profound, task of the Pastor-Elder is to preach and teach the Gospel, not to seek numerical growth - it is the Lord alone who gives growth through the conversion of sinners as a result of a faithful preaching-teaching ministry. I question the validity of your teaching and fear that you are leading people astray with 'another (g)ospel'..This is not the Biblical model of church ministry but a pyramid scheme of human corporate leadership which ought to be resisted in every way in the true church of Jesus Christ. Simply put - Preach the word, in season, out of season, love your flocks Pastors, visit them and care for them as often as you can and show them you love them, because Christ died for every one of them..and find a Biblical CHURCH..as opposed to this kind of corporate man based leadership cult which is being proposed here.
True leaders teach God's word and make sure that the persons that they are teaching learn and not just hear. I don't understand why people are so focused on building an institutional churches and making them bigger and bigger and more and more beautiful and elegant and forsaking the true mission of making true disciples. Jesus did not care to much of the temple He said that not one stone would be left upon another. HE ALSO SAID that there was a time coming when true worshipers would worship the father in the spirit and in truth.He also said that that time was already here,and that those were the type of worshipers that he was seeking. Its ok to have churches but not instutionalized Christians, that is the biggest problem today.todays church should have multiple leaders to focus on their specific roles and also to keep each other accountable.the only head is christ,and the spirit with the word will guide us into all truth.the world is full of beautiful buildings with well organized structure, but they are empty of love. Build the real church.
at 2:10: The church would grow significantly if more pastors understood this and were not intimidated by those placed around them to help them. Thank you for sharing this.
Thats exactly how I feel, I am a local Pastor and sometimes I wish I could help people come out of Religion and start Living but its tough here in Angola(Africa) . Thank you🙏
Interestingly Jesus said call no man leader for you have one leader the Christ. Look it up in the original. The 5 fold gifts given to men are servile while the idea of "leader" is usually an ego exalting trip
And, this is why people like me left the church entirely. We in the west started treating the Kingdom of God as though it was an organization and Pastors like CEOs. If it so much as smells like its a business, I'm out. I'd rather meet with three people in a coffee shop around an exegetical commentary than follow a CEO in an "organization". If it doesn't smell like the first century church, its not a church.
The problem is your position of a title of a pastor is unbiblical. The 5 fold gifts are to minister to the body and not a Lordship position to preach sermons as a primary role. Christ is the head and the leadership is elders of the church who lord over the church corporately. The 5 fold ministry feeds the flock by all members. We’re so far away from biblical Apostolic church gatherings of believers.
Sorry but you have this backwards. This is purely manmade thinking and is opposite of what the Bible teaches. Maybe you should look up the actual definition of a pastor. PASTORING IS their job. If they don't nurture or teach they are not a pastor and are not leading. That's how they lead. Like someone else said, God gives the increase. We should stop worrying about growing a church or growing ourselves as leaders or pastors and focus on Christ's example. And If we actually reference Scripture in our teachings we can avoid spreading manmade ideas such as these. This is very detrimental. It's not about what you believe it's about what he Word teaches.
THE ROLE OF A PROTESTANT PASTOR VS A CATHOLIC PRIEST IN A CONDENSED FORM.. Bible says, for priest cannot make himself a priest. Pastors of protestants make themselves pastors. Protestant pastor is simply a false teacher. They may not be trying to teach false doctrine because many, if not most, of them are simply ignorant of the truth and desire to teach the truth. However, a Protestant pastor is nothing more than a false teacher and a leader of a false church. A priest, on the other hand, is a pastor. He is a shepherd. He is ordained by God. The same is not true of a Protestant pastor. Presbyterian perspective. The sacrament of communion is not as important in many Protestant churches (we only have communion once a month, which is typical of many Protestant churches). Protestant pastors generally also don't do things like hear confession (although the spiritual counseling they may give to members may come close in many instances.) The emphasis in Protestant churches is generally on preaching and teaching, and, perhaps to a lesser extent, being a spiritual leader for the church in terms of counseling. That's why in Presbyterian churches the pastor is referred to at times as a "teaching elder" or as a "minister of word and sacrament," "word" referring to teaching and preaching. Protestant pastors also have a lot of administrative responsibilities, including essentially fundraising for capital campaigns and annual pledges. The pastor also has to oversee associate pastors (if any), and employees/volunteers such as Sunday School teachers, youth ministry people, clerical and administrative staff. Also many Protestant churches have a lay board of deacons, or session of elders, which have greater or lesser powers of decision-making and responsibility, and the pastor has responsibility for overseeing them and essentially keeping them unified--although often such boards ultimately have more power than the pastor, including having the power to fire and hire the pastor. In summary, for better or worse, a Protestant pastor's job is a lot like being the CEO of a company, in additional to spiritual responsibilities. A priest has two primary functions -- to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and to forgive sins. These two functions were given to the Apostles on Holy Thursday (the Mass) and in the Upper Room (Absolution). Anything a priest does apart from this is not essential, he may have a flock of his own in a parish or he may be a monk or a hermit, it does not matter. What matters is that he is ordained to offer the Sacrifice and to forgive sins. The Sacrament of Communion receiving Christ is the CENTER of the Catholicism. The Eucharist is the CENTER of our faith. What could be more important then eating the bread from heaven and getting the Grace of God that enters your body and soul and mind? The Priest in the is nothing like a CEO in a company. The Priest is the person who stands in for Christ and does his work here on earth. The Priest is who has authority to change regular bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. The Priest is the one who has authority to forgive us our sins in the name of Christ. The Priest is the one who teaches the word not by his own interpretation but by the way that Christ taught it. The teaching comes straight from the mouth of Christ and his Apostles.
Or, maybe the problem is we're seeing the church as an organization, business, or franchise and we need to get back to equipping the saints, teaching God's word, loving people, caring for people, shepherding people, and allow the Holy Spirit to grow the church?
Amen to this! I love where you said, “Others can do that.” People need to be led, leaders grow churches, not nurturers.
After much contemplation about this over last year, I think now see it’s Apostles that are the leaders over seeing the pastors, prophets, teachers, evangelists. Many apostles are called pastors and sadly many pastors take on leadership of whole church but they are not going to make the tough decisions.
So if say PASTORS DONT GROW CHURCHES APOSTLES DO With strategy from and through Holy Spirit
A biblical view of pastoral ministry includes nurturing, management, and leadership.
There is no such distinction in scripture, the roles are always 'Pastors and Teachers' or 'Pastors and Elders', not 'Leaders' Eph.4.
They are called to build the church not through carnal 'leadership' schemes or structures as proposed here but by 'Shepherding the flock of God'
1 Peter 5:1-4 'So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight,[a] not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you;[b] not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.'
The simple, but profound, task of the Pastor-Elder is to preach and teach the Gospel, not to seek numerical growth - it is the Lord alone who gives growth through the conversion of sinners as a result of a faithful preaching-teaching ministry.
I question the validity of your teaching and fear that you are leading people astray with 'another (g)ospel'..This is not the Biblical model of church ministry but a pyramid scheme of human corporate leadership which ought to be resisted in every way in the true church of Jesus Christ.
Simply put - Preach the word, in season, out of season, love your flocks Pastors, visit them and care for them as often as you can and show them you love them, because Christ died for every one of them..and find a Biblical CHURCH..as opposed to this kind of corporate man based leadership cult which is being proposed here.
Bless you brother for sharing that...it's on point.
@@jaymac6831 Jesus said "I will build my church". What PS is advocating is of this world and carnal.
@@michaelparker6763I agreed with the post by Gareth. If I can remember I didn't agree much with what PS said .🙏🏾
True leaders teach God's word and make sure that the persons that they are teaching learn and not just hear. I don't understand why people are so focused on building an institutional churches and making them bigger and bigger and more and more beautiful and elegant and forsaking the true mission of making true disciples. Jesus did not care to much of the temple He said that not one stone would be left upon another. HE ALSO SAID that there was a time coming when true worshipers would worship the father in the spirit and in truth.He also said that that time was already here,and that those were the type of worshipers that he was seeking. Its ok to have churches but not instutionalized Christians, that is the biggest problem today.todays church should have multiple leaders to focus on their specific roles and also to keep each other accountable.the only head is christ,and the spirit with the word will guide us into all truth.the world is full of beautiful buildings with well organized structure, but they are empty of love. Build the real church.
at 2:10: The church would grow significantly if more pastors understood this and were not intimidated by those placed around them to help them.
Thank you for sharing this.
Wow - thank you! - Local Church Pastor
Challenging. Confronting.
TY
Good one
Unfortunately no biblical viewpoint.. A secular viewpoint
Thats exactly how I feel, I am a local Pastor and sometimes I wish I could help people come out of Religion and start Living but its tough here in Angola(Africa) . Thank you🙏
Interestingly Jesus said call no man leader for you have one leader the Christ. Look it up in the original. The 5 fold gifts given to men are servile while the idea of "leader" is usually an ego exalting trip
Agreed.
Good stuff!
And, this is why people like me left the church entirely. We in the west started treating the Kingdom of God as though it was an organization and Pastors like CEOs. If it so much as smells like its a business, I'm out. I'd rather meet with three people in a coffee shop around an exegetical commentary than follow a CEO in an "organization". If it doesn't smell like the first century church, its not a church.
The problem is your position of a title of a pastor is unbiblical. The 5 fold gifts are to minister to the body and not a Lordship position to preach sermons as a primary role. Christ is the head and the leadership is elders of the church who lord over the church corporately. The 5 fold ministry feeds the flock by all members. We’re so far away from biblical Apostolic church gatherings of believers.
Sorry but you have this backwards. This is purely manmade thinking and is opposite of what the Bible teaches. Maybe you should look up the actual definition of a pastor. PASTORING IS their job. If they don't nurture or teach they are not a pastor and are not leading. That's how they lead. Like someone else said, God gives the increase. We should stop worrying about growing a church or growing ourselves as leaders or pastors and focus on Christ's example. And If we actually reference Scripture in our teachings we can avoid spreading manmade ideas such as these. This is very detrimental. It's not about what you believe it's about what he Word teaches.
THE ROLE OF A PROTESTANT PASTOR VS A CATHOLIC PRIEST IN A CONDENSED FORM..
Bible says, for priest cannot make himself a priest. Pastors of protestants make themselves pastors.
Protestant pastor is simply a false teacher. They may not be trying to teach false doctrine because many, if not most, of them are simply ignorant of the truth and desire to teach the truth. However, a Protestant pastor is nothing more than a false teacher and a leader of a false church. A priest, on the other hand, is a pastor. He is a shepherd. He is ordained by God. The same is not true of a Protestant pastor.
Presbyterian perspective. The sacrament of communion is not as important in many Protestant churches (we only have communion once a month, which is typical of many Protestant churches). Protestant pastors generally also don't do things like hear confession (although the spiritual counseling they may give to members may come close in many instances.) The emphasis in Protestant churches is generally on preaching and teaching, and, perhaps to a lesser extent, being a spiritual leader for the church in terms of counseling. That's why in Presbyterian churches the pastor is referred to at times as a "teaching elder" or as a "minister of word and sacrament," "word" referring to teaching and preaching.
Protestant pastors also have a lot of administrative responsibilities, including essentially fundraising for capital campaigns and annual pledges. The pastor also has to oversee associate pastors (if any), and employees/volunteers such as Sunday School teachers, youth ministry people, clerical and administrative staff. Also many Protestant churches have a lay board of deacons, or session of elders, which have greater or lesser powers of decision-making and responsibility, and the pastor has responsibility for overseeing them and essentially keeping them unified--although often such boards ultimately have more power than the pastor, including having the power to fire and hire the pastor.
In summary, for better or worse, a Protestant pastor's job is a lot like being the CEO of a company, in additional to spiritual responsibilities.
A priest has two primary functions -- to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and to forgive sins. These two functions were given to the Apostles on Holy Thursday (the Mass) and in the Upper Room (Absolution). Anything a priest does apart from this is not essential, he may have a flock of his own in a parish or he may be a monk or a hermit, it does not matter. What matters is that he is ordained to offer the Sacrifice and to forgive sins.
The Sacrament of Communion receiving Christ is the CENTER of the Catholicism.
The Eucharist is the CENTER of our faith. What could be more important then eating the bread from heaven and getting the Grace of God that enters your body and soul and mind?
The Priest in the is nothing like a CEO in a company. The Priest is the person who stands in for Christ and does his work here on earth.
The Priest is who has authority to change regular bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. The Priest is the one who has authority to forgive us our sins in the name of Christ.
The Priest is the one who teaches the word not by his own interpretation but by the way that Christ taught it. The teaching comes straight from the mouth of Christ and his Apostles.