Hi Clive, the idea of the tin foil is to join the two transformer shields as one Faraday Shield. It may be that the same components/circuit are used with a plastic cover. This is normal for use in vehicles, due to air-born interference, like you said from the ignition high voltage spikes but the main use of this type of audio signal isolator in vehicles is to suppress the alternator electrical noise. It used to be worse in the bigger type cars due to the high output alternators used having to cope with the amount of electrical items such as Electric windows/Sunroofs, Air-con, Rear heated screens etc, all quite modern in the day. I used many of these in my days as an Auto-Electrician in the 80's on big audio amplifier systems. Great videos, keep it up. Many thanks
+Mark Andrews I have worked on the car audio amps myself and seen what you say but have also seen what is called a ground loop effect as what Clive was talking about. The ground reference for some of the kids of my generation like doing is applying the ground connection to their amp in the back of the car to the body and usually in a most horrible way(wire stuffed under a screw that is nothing more than a 16 AWG) and the grounding point of the car stereo connection point somewhere under the dash or to the engine. These get really bad on the thin metal car bodies of the current manufacturing process. See these items install most of the time. Best fix I have done of my cars is to install a decent wire from the ground of the amp to stereo and also run a ground wire of suitable size back to the battery or alternator case for the amp and install a half to one farad cap with the amp.
Have a look at those medical shows where the run a 'probe' up a vein all the way to the hart, or brain - Gesss where the entry point is. The groin, vagina etc, big blood vessels, easy access. Obviously those aliens are showing the way to the medical elite.
china made car audio often pick alternator whine. .so annoying. .what if ur not using extra amplifier just a Normal stereo where to place this filter ? is it between the radio output and the speakers?
The foil was likely being used as a shield to block out hum/noise. It's a technique often used in guitar electronics where the cavities that house all the wiring/controls are lined with a conductive foil (usually copper) and then the foil is connected to ground. This makes it so that any electrical interference is picked up by the foil and sent straight to ground
I have installed one of these in my car and it works fantastically. Around the time of the install, I also made sure that I had all power and signal wires isolated and insulated. The combination of doing these two things completely rids the car of a static hum.
The metal case is a special metal called a mu-metal. It really likes magnetic fields. It likes them so much it acts like a magnetic short circuit (low magnetic resistor). The aluminum foil on top of the transformers is used differently. Aluminum doesn't like magnetic fields, so fields are reflected away (high magnetic resistor). I don't know why they didn't mount the transformers 90 degrees from each other to prevent channel crosstalk.
+Jammit Timmaj: Because it would not work. If you rotate one of them by 90° on the circuit board, the magnetic field vectors are still parallel to each other, because they are oriented perpendicular to the PCBs surface. Btw, I have heard that mu metal is rather expensive so I would think they were not using it here, but I could be wrong. However the thickness seems to be really thin, so I doubt they are actually effective at audio frequency levels.
+Simon K. I meant to rotate the transformers so their magnetic fields are rotated 90 degrees. Sorry for any confusion. It'd probably make the PC board manufacture a nightmare... unless they decided to use non-traditional transformer type, like flying leads come out from the "wrong" side, both transformers are wound differently, that kind of thing. Mu metal (sounds like a punk rock speed metal music genre) is expensive if you get the really good stuff, and the cheap stuff is ok enough. The metal isn't designed to block out by screening, but by being a shortcut for magnetic fields. The magnetic fields flow so easily through the metal it doesn't "poke" out the other side very easily.
+Jammit Timmaj 1- More the metal "likes" magnetic field it will shield it better. 2- The noise from ignition and mains are usually electro-magnetic interference, not magnetic. It can be blocked by a tick conductive shield, and the foil will not have that much effect. 3- This device only blocks electric coupling and attenuates non-audible frequencies. More filtration and shielding is needed to get rid of all interferences. 4- Rotating the transformers is neither practical nor practiced.
Has Nas 1) Better explanation than I was able to do. 2) The isolator in the video is used to isolate a common ground in an effort to remove common ground noise. You can get conducted noise from nearby wires (think high power switching an inductive load). The radiating noise can be coupled into nearby wires and especially transformers that were designed to couple electromagnetic energy. Electromagnetic energy is still magnetic energy. I think you might have used the wrong word and meant something else. 3) The device in the video is only used to isolate grounds. There is some frequency modification, but that isn't intentional and is instead designed to prevent this. I'm certain 10khz will pass fine with little attenuation and 100Mhz will be attenuated, but that's just a happy accident and not intended. An audio ground isolator tries its best to not change the frequency response. 4) Rotating the transformers 90 degrees to each other will help attenuate cross channel interference, but is not done because the cost of changing the circuit board is too expensive and probably has minimal effect on the relatively high signals passing through (1V RMS will bury 1mv RMS of crosstalk).
Because it takes WAAAaaaaay longer to explain HOW something works than to SHOW how it works. As Clive has previously lamented, you really should be *doing* and not talking and writing about doing. Without some experience in this field, what are you going to do for work if you graduate?
These are great. I've used them in several projects. Most notably was my 80s Bluetooth boom box where I used it to eliminate the horrible noise the Bluetooth adapted was creating. None of the ones I took apart had that foil on top though but we're surrounded by a razor sharp piece of tin inside the outer cylinder.
As an audio engineer I can tell you there will definitely be some frequency loss. The reason is the transformers are in effect "seen" by the source and amplifier as transducers, even if the impedance is very high. Like any single speaker, it can not reproduce (pass) the entire range of human hearing effectively. I tend to think it would loose a significant portion of high frequency because inductors in AC resist (impede) changes depending on the "Henry" rating of the coil and frequency of the varying AC waveform.
Hello Ria - I do agree with you 100% but most users of these are using laptops or PCs playing some kind of heavily compressed audio so in the real world those comments in my humble opinion do not apply. Obviously you would use a CD or high quality audio player from a digital output to get the best quality for broadcast. I have worked in some radio stations that actually (shockingly) use youtube grabbed audio or MP3s. These sound awful on FM broadcast. In quality stations everything runs balanced line or digital. For most typical users of audio if any high end was lost they would turn up the treble bands on a software based graphic equalizer. Anyhow - well educated post.
RiaRadioFMHD773 yeah. It's good but I just use wav or aiff for the reason of hard drive space being so cheap now. Just don't like MP3 as a rule. It's okay to email ideas with but that's it.
These are ferrite core transformers, like those used on SMPS and can operate up to hundreds of KHz to several MHz. Actually I would be more concerned about low frequency response. If the core isn't sized correctly it could easily saturate at low frequencies. But I guess this shouldn't be a problem at line level signals. Just don't try to pass amplified signals through that.
I recently pulled this ethernet transformer off a computer motherboard. wl500g.info/attachment.php?attachmentid=1690&stc=1&d=1186217169 (Delta LF8505 for those that would rather search themselves) Just for grins I'm going to hook up some RCA jacks to it and see what kind of funkiness it does to an audio signal :D
I bought two audio isolators ( rca + 3.5mm) after watching this video. This stuff works since for some reason my pc causes a hum and buzz whenever I run any games that utilizes my graphics card heavily. Thanks bigclive
The hum and/or buzz from PC is caused by poor quality power supply and/or poorly implemented voltage regulators on your motherboard. And audio isolator will fix the problem despite the source of ground loop.
i was always taught(and please correct me if im wrong) but "balanced" audio was the act of running the same audio signal through two separate wires with one being "normal" and the other being polarity inverted, once combine they cancel out any noise... ---------------------------- In fact, a little bit of googling brought up this: www.ians-net.co.uk/articles/balanced_lines.php To remove noise from a signal we need some way of working out what is our wanted signal and what can be thrown away. Balanced lines achieve this by transmitting two versions of the signal down their length. The source equipment sends the normal signal down one conductor and a polarity-inverted signal down the other. This is usually done using either transformer-based or electronic output stages. The cable itself is designed with the conductors having very similar impedances and twisted along their length so that any noise is picked up equally by both conductors, no matter where in the cable it occurs. The receiving equipment has a transformer or electronic differential amplifier, and takes the inverted signal and returns it to it's correct polarity. At this point, the wanted signals on each conductor are both the same polarity, whereas any noise is of opposite polarity. Summing the signals from the two conductors together reinforces the wanted signal and cancels anything unwanted, leaving a recovered signal which is very close to the original. (this is known as Common Mode Rejection - i.e. any signal which is the same on both conductors is removed.) Even balanced lines aren't perfect, though - slight differences in impedance, twisting or input gain will allow some noise to slip through. This isn't generally a problem unless you're using very long runs or working in areas of high interference. It looks like the same as what twisted pair does with networking/telecoms...
+TornTech Almost.....Balanced lines are indeed, differential pairs. Each line of the pair, contains the 180degree inversion of the others signal. The amplifier will only amplify the sum difference between the two lines. Any noise, picked up on the lines will be of the same phase and amplitude, on both lines, hence, no sum difference in noise to be amplified. Clive's explanation was correct however, it did lack a bit of detail.
+bain5872 Almost. DIFFERENtial pairs do not require the two signals to be inversions. In fact you could have all the signal on one conductor, and 0V on the other. The "difference" between the two is still the audio signal you want, and the common mode interference is still rejected. In order for differential signaling to work, the IMPEDANCE must be the same on both lines. That way, common mode interference affects both lines EQUALLY, and is thus subtracted properly on the output. The reason inverted signals are used, is because it increases the dynamic signal range, and drops the noise floor.
I am aware of this however, without a differential signal (inversion of one line as opposed to the other), there is no amplification nor noise cancellation. It stands to reason that if there is a mismatch in either lines impedance, there would indeed, be a differential signal on that line. This is the point that you seemed to not understand. If I misunderstood this, please accept my apology.
Euro Bum You are clearly speaking on a subject for which you have a very limited knowledge. I suggest instead of finding factoids, to bolster your sense of worth, you do real research on the subject and please, stop using Wiki as your source material. Good day Sir.
Unbalanced audio connections can pretty much be considered broken these days. With computers, shielded network cables and all that good stuff in modern setups, there's earth connections coming in all over the place. You'll be catching a ground loop faster than you can say "ground loop". Ground loop isolators are handy when having to interface unbalanced to balanced. One system relies on floating ground, the other is earthed everywhere. The important thing about balanced connections is the balanced impedance part, actually (if in doubt, consider the case of no signal). The whole thing can be treated as a Wheatstone bridge. If shield currents cause audible noise, usually one component suffers from a faulty shield connection hookup known as a "Pin 1 Problem". AES48-2005 clearly states that the shield (XLR pin 1) *must* go to chassis directly and immediately, and must not connect to local audio ground first (the connection between both is made elsewhere). Now components that disagree should mostly have gone away by now, but it looks like even recent KRK Rokit speakers (5", 6" models at least) are still affected.
Using one of these in my car helped on eliminating very annoying interference noises from the alternator and the servo steering in my subwoofer amp. Awesome to have an explanation on how it works :3
I used one of these to solve a very bad hum with a sub woofer, was doubtful it would work, but was pleasantly surprised to find it done the job perfectly.
i would say the foil is for magnetic shielding they probably make that internal piece and sell it to people who install it in cases that probably offers a slight bit of magnetic shielding when that same component is in a plastic case
The foil looks to me, bodge job :) Usualy, we always place pair of stereo trasformers 90 degree (eliminate magnetic crosstalk), then we connect the transformer shielding together (eliminate EMF noises) the outside shell is a simple raw steel, to block low frequency magnetic waves from the transformers core, because this transformers has a bit air gap. on consumer level, working perfectly. The best ones uses precision winding, hexacore coils, gold or silver plated shield, and some kind of special core. I even seen mixed E and toroid transformers. What I dont like about this transformers, is the way, how they destroy the high frequencies and the saturation. Use short strong rca cables, and for big distances, no other way, just balanced signals. And yepp, same source low resistance earthing. Or digital interconnect. Thank You for sharing :)
I did a quick test with audio signal generator on one side and a scope on the other, and it looked fairly flat from the high range all the way down to 100Hz, where it started dropping off rapidly. Better than I expected for such small formers, but Altronics have a similar one that makes even better claims about the low end. At those frequencies, I doubt the audio would suffer much by just boosting the low end with the sub amp or EQ though.
The problem in cars is that once you got audio signals from your radio to an external amp the return currents won't just flow through the chassis or the wire but also through the audio ground. The generator puts out a lot of ripple so you end up hearing your engine RPM times 3, 6 or even 12(depending on the generator) in the speakers. This is where the isolator comes in. It stops the ground current and ripple, so you won't hear the whistles in your speakers.
Quite an old video this but the most common ground loop in a car that I've fixed more then once for friends with this very thing is alternator hum from an external audio source feeding the stereo. Like a phone being charged while plugged in through the auxiliary cord. This thing works every time.
Humbuckers or DI boxes are the two mainly used in the AV industry. Di boxes have switches on them so you can choose left right or stereo and earth lift. A bit more expensive than a humbucker, but more versatile.
They are magic in older car audio systems. I’m glad I found your video to explain how it works. It fixed the hat was going to cost me hundreds to fix and only cost $12 aud.
This also frequently happens in car audio setups where you'll get a high pitched hum at the same frequently as the alternator is rotating. It can end up being a completely overwhelming whine. And this little device fixes that perfectly as well.
I was playing live one time and none of the equipment was mine I got up to do the first song and holy crap that mic shocked tf out of me the entire song
I had a similar issue with my external USB-AMP (no ground Audinst HUD MX1) connected to my PC. I was soooo glad when I got one of these and it solved my issues. The AMP is also creating a very loud humming when the USB is not connected to the the PC but its power supply is connected to the mains. Thanks for showing us what is inside!
Only mains hum (and AM radio broadcasts!!) I've picked up on audio gear is when I built a cheapo stereo amplifier kit, earthing did sort-of quieten it down, but, not enough to make it any good for anything other than the bin, everything else I've wired up properly and no mains hum... :P
For a hi fi quality isolator for home / stage use I would recommend Omnitronic Lh-081. Should work ok in cars as well I guess but it may not as good as this one. The LH-081 frequencies range is 15Hz - 30KHz, input & output impendancies are 600Ohm.
A couple of years ago I was going to modify an old tube radio with an aux-in jack for my grandfather, but I eventually gave up on it because I learned that they operate on half-wave rectified mains voltage, and the plug was non-polar. So just by plugging it in the wrong way around, you could end up with live mains on the aux jack. This is exactly what I needed, and I think I might re-investigate doing that now.
I apologize if somebody beat me to it, but in cars, the chassis is used as dc common, so the high frequency nose from so spark plugs can actually generate signals in the chassis ground loop between source and amp can transfer the audio noise through the chassis.
Sorry if this has already been mentioned but balanced line signals are designed for longer distances. Yards and yards, sometimes hundreds of yards, with very puny signals, such as that which comes from a microphone. If you 'lift' the ground you have no signal ground reference but sometimes, as you mention, this can be preferable and the receiving device uses its own ground. The real magic is that the two signal wires carry the same signal but one is inverted. At the other end both signals are recombined and any external distortion, which could be rather inposing to such a little signal over a great distance, is conjured away by the inverted distortion cancelling out the distortion on the other one.... I think....
Dullthud007 The ground that is lifted is the shield ground at one end, not the signal ground/return lead. That is to prevent ground loop currents from inducing a common mode current (and thus voltage) onto the signal leads that can cause signal integrity issues where significant ground loops exist -- in the worst cases it can also prevent currents of sufficient amperage to actually melt or burn up the shield conductor where very large ground loop currents exist (although such ground loops can also be a major safety issue in addition to being a nuisance).
I was PAT testing in a local church recently and found that ALL the amplifiers (main, monitor and induction loop) had their earth leads cut off inside the mains plugs
That's unfortunately really common in the audio industry due to misinformation passed by word of mouth. Even worse now that many of the people doing it have effectively become electrically qualified with a one or two day slideshow and are moving into other electrical areas with the same mentality.
Different substations can be a massive issue even for mains electrical work (as you no doubt know!) let alone audio. I remember measuring 50ish amps flowing down the armour of an SWA. The voltage was tiny...
These one are VERY helpful and was THE solution for a little project some months ago.... I had needed such one too to connect my Samsung galaxy S3 with an pam8403 DIGI amplifier board AND a power bank cell charger for cell phones at same time. (Power bank charger as power supply(5V) for the amp and for charging the Samsung S3 at same time.) WITHOUT the audio isolator transformer,i had cannot charge the S3 and powering the pam8403 amp at same time because of ground problems(weird noises and probably BAD for the digi amplifier).
The foil is for electrostatic shielding. Some transformer, power transformers in older tube gear even, come with a shield between the primary and other windings. Normally you'd just ground it.
The big power amps used in car audio suffer worse than you might expect, generally they contain big dc-dc converters, if you have a few of them you can often hear the beat frequency of the different oscillators as well as the other crap. I have previously used audio transformers from scrapped radio base stations to get round these earth loop problems. The transformers are used to interface the transmitters and receivers to leased land lines, nominally 600 ohm.
I have an older Toshiba flat screen television that I'm using one of these devices on. Mine has some variable resistors built-in to adjust the volume. I had tapped in to the speaker outlet & send the signal to a stereo system built for computers. It is a nice unit made by Creative. it has a subwoofer box & two nice stereo speakers. I knew when I tapped into it, this was the only way it would work.
The situation where you have line noise on the audio line is called a ground loop. I use a direct box to connect my laptop to my main mix and amp to eliminate this situation but one of these little things will work also but it's intended use is in car audio environments.. Sure you can use them in home systems as a temporary fix but its best to get equipment all on the same circuit and have proper balancing when installing a home system. Commercial system are more versatile and are made to be moved about a lot so the "on stage" direct box is the answer to those problems. In car audio you get noise from the alternator, fuel pump and, onboard computers. The noise is more prominent through HF Ham radios and CB radios but those require a DC capacitive filters and not an audio transformer, Car audio amplifiers of the cheap breeds will need these transformer baluns in the input lines though. The foil on top looks like it may help with phase matching or the electromagnetic flux matching but it does not seem very effective since it only foil and not a metal shim.. It could be something like you said also to help keep interference out, there is just no real good way to tell. I mean it could be there because the foil tape matched the transformer casing. who knows..
A must have for car audio, too. Great for alternator whine and other issues. Quite often it's not practical to have all the equipment grounded to the same point (star ground) so there will be slight voltage differences in different chassis grounds. Also the signal wires will be a bit long from the dash to trunk mounted amplifiers, and often will have to run near other wiring and pickup noise. As you said, a great get out of jail free card to have in your box. There is super posh version of this where the audio signal is changed to light and run over fibre then converted back at the other end. Great when the cable has to run past very noisy equipment.
I remember helping people fix "Noise issues" with their car audio systems back in the day. They always showed up with one of these devices, I never needed them, and the real issue was always one of 3 other issues... #1. Crappy ground connections, or grounding points at different points on the car that had high impedance between them. #2. Inferior or unshielded long RCA cable runs, that were ran next to a large, high current, power cable. #3. A shitty head unit, OR blown ground traces on the RCA output of the head unit or EQ, because someone carelessly let the end of their RCA come into contact with the B+ on their amplifier or somewhere else in the car. I'm in NO way saying that those noise isolaters are useless, they are very useful for mains powered equipment with ground loop issues, but they were very rarely needed in car stereo installations to cure noise issues.
I used to rehearse in a shared practice room in the 80's, and somebody had put electrical tape around the ground pin on my bass amplifier mains plug. So we were playing along, I put my shoeless foot up on a radiator, and got a spectacular electrical shock. That's when I learned about the bad way of ground lifting. I also must have left the ground for a moment there too. Scary stuff.
another way of getting rid of noise like that is using Differential signaling, commonly used in XLR plugs, where the regular signal is in one conductor and the 180 degree phase-shifted signal is sent over another, and in the other end the two signals are added and the noise is added too, and so it cancels out. ;) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio look under 2.Interference Reduction and 3.Differential signaling this is however not common in most home or car audio equipment sadly
Thank you so much for making this video, I bought 2 of these a couple weeks ago and I was wondering what was inside of them but I didn't want to take them apart and damage them.
I usually end up buying stuff you show, but in this case I've already got a stack of these in use today to break open the earth loops between my 3 PC's, mixer and amp. They're very cheap and work well. Decent bandwidth if I remember right. They've been around for many years. I remember selling them in the electronics shop in Newington 15 years ago! ___________________________________ Maybe the foil was used to join the two transformer frames together to help with channel isolation?
Car Audio systems are notorious for an alternator whine that changes frequency with engine rpm. This IS and probably ALWAYS WILL BE the fix for poorly isolated high-power car audio components. Isolators work every time. 😉
Aslmx , each isolator takes care of 1 pair (1left, 1right). . If you have front, rear, and sub outputs from your head unit, and you wish to connect an amplifier for each, then yes, you need 3 isolators. Hope this helps you. :)
I have never had a situation where an Isolator didn't fix a noise issue, as long as you use it on the offending end. Once that noise is processed as signal, you can't get it back out again.
This video and these comments are great for me and my Brother-in-law, who are both trying to figure out why our cars have very annoying feedback in the audio systems (his is worse than mine). Looking at the wiring diagrams there must be dozens of chassis grounds, which can't help.
I know your comment is 4 years old at this point, but I solved my alternator whine by slapping a big ass inductor on the +12v side before the big ass capacitor right before the amplifier. Somehow whine was making it through a 0.5F capacitor...
Thank you for the tear down. The transformers in the Pyramid NS-20 are about a quarter of the size in the unit you have there. The NS-20 has a plastic clam shell design and has just a small piece of foil for shielding. Also , the transformers are wrapped with tape before the foil. So , the foil is just shielding in the NS-20.
My thoughts on this: the metal casing's essential role is to provide a Faraday cage, meant to ensure that no RF interference can be caught up, then amplified. Given the car audio focus, you are right, the ignition would be the main culprit however other RF sources should not be ignored. After all, you cannot create a winding with the unscreened audio signal cable and hope for the best - that's how you end up with an antenna. The bit of foil between the transformers should serve to discharge any potential that could build up in-between.
I have been in the Pro AV industry for 20 years, what I was trained about lifting the ground is slightly different. The ground wire on a balanced line needs to be earth ground, some older equipment the shield pin was tied to D.C. Ground which was the path that the noise on the shield wire was introduced. If I ever had a humbug was always that the previous installer lifted the shield and didn't maintain the cable twist. I would also double check the equipment by metering the shield pin to the chassis, if they were not connected I would ground the shield to the chassis not the pin and there wouldn't be a hum. I was taught that as long as that shield goes to earth ground a slight current on it isn't that big of an issue. I know LOTs of older AV guys who disagree with me. If your Amp shield is tied to D.C. Ground you are basically creating a huge antenna for it.
I'm pretty sure that outer metal can provides zero shielding, since it's not grounded. If it is connected to one of the conductors in the cable, then it will act as an antenna, injecting all interference directly into your audio signal.
In a car, because you're generally using the body of the car for your "earth", there's a very large possibility that the earth reference-voltage will be different for every component in your audio system. Because it's such a large surface area, it's very prone to picking up e.m. interference. Whether that interference is from your alternator, your ignition system, or even your mobile phone, it can easily produce a voltage difference between the various earth-connections of the various components in your car's audio system. One of these audio isolators can really fix that problem quite well. And because an automobile is generally such a poor place for audio, you won't really notice the very slight drop in quality of the signal.
My vehicle stereo works very well except when I plug in my phone to listen to mp3 ' s. At that point, I get to listen to the engine as it accelerates or slows down. I sure don't have any miss - firing spark plugs! Lol I'm not sure how I could hook one of these up since the mp3 jack does not use R CA plugs, but I'm sure there is one out there for my needs. I just haven't looked real hard yet.
My vehicle stereo works very well except when I plug in my phone to listen to mp3 ' s. At that point, I get to listen to the engine as it accelerates or slows down. I sure don't have any miss - firing spark plugs! Lol I'm not sure how I could hook one of these up since the mp3 jack does not use R CA plugs, but I'm sure there is one out there for my needs. I just haven't looked real hard yet.
Merle Mitchell my stereo system does the same thing when hooking up my cellphone to the aux in.ive noticed that if I'm not charging my phone there's no noise(unwanted noise)!But as soon as I hook up the micro usb cable which is changing from the usb adapter plug in my cigarette lighter socket.if I use a powerpack to charge my phone there's no noise. Any idea's on a solution for this issue?
I'm glad I'm not a car audio builder today. With all the external signals like can buses, wifi, Bluetooth, and radar equipment in vehicles today, it might be tough to get a clean audio signal. I recently turned up the volume on my wife's Honda CRV with all that equipment in it and on USB audio with no USB device installed, I heard all kinds of squeaks and buzzing, in the background. It also sounds like they have the high-end cut at a steep slope to filter noise also.😮
so its just an 1:1 transformer, aka isolation transformer. and yes in car aftermarket audio systems you can have problems, sometimes the car alternator can leak some humm on wine to your audio signal. i love your channel😁
one thing you have to watch out for,in vehicles is the 'whine 'can either be the alternator OR the fuel pump. you also have to realize,all the wiring in the vehicle is acting like antenna so its not realy a simple thing to fix in a vehical
I use a Toslink optical cable to connect most of my equipment to my old Yamaha V800 6.1 receiver. As it needs optical light input to send audio, noice is not a problem. Most devices I want to connect have toslink-support but off course not every device supports toslink. In these cases, such a device is quite useful.
As a 62-year-old electronic tech, I can't believe fiber optic didn't conquer the audio-video patch cable market. It would have been a much better quality sound plus they could have passed the remote control signals and video between devices too.🤔
As a soundie myself, I am astounded at how many others I have seen who have pulled the cutting the mains pin trick to clean up ground loops. When I was an in-house guy in one venue, cables like that brought into the venue (usually by outside techs) would end up in the trash.
as for putting one of these in a car, you get very bad audio wine from the alternator when the phono cables are routed alongside the amp power supply cable, very good bit of kit
I used to work for a company, Road Radio way back in the 90's. I can't say I've ever come across one. We used to fit anything from Philips to Nakamichi audio systems, getting rid of audio noise used to involve cleaning all earthing points and soldering the wiring on the more elitist jobs. Sneaking one of those in to a system would have probably saved a lot of work lol. Thanks for the post.
I suspect the foil is to ensure a conductive path between the two metal can halves as it would be pressed against the interior of both cans when assembled. If they had soldered the two halves together then I doubt it would have been used. In car audio you are most likely to require filtering on the power input, especially to a radio, as there can be a lot of conducted common mode noise on a vehicle's power rail that can then get into the tuner (most decent amplifiers will/should have adequate input filtering of their own since they do not have the added task of functioning as a proper radio receiver where the vehicle chassis (ground plane) is also a part of the antenna path. Usually these filters are a simple inductor and one, or more, capacitors to help filter ignition and commutation noise from the power input.
I've seen some comparisons/measurements of these devices and there's definitely different levels of quality out there. To get good transformers with extended bass response you've typically got to get something beyond the common $10-$15 devices.
Foil Is For RFI Mitigation, But Its Already In metal Casing, IDK, Weird Way To Do Things , BUT They Used Wrong Transformers For Such Aplication, They Needed To Use Smaller Transformers, Same Exact Ones That Are Used In Good Amps And They Idealy Should Be Round Ones On A Toroid , Not On A Metal, Toroid Coils That Can Carry All The Signals For Both Channels, Thats Why They Are Two Of Them I Guess. But Yea, Totally Wrong Setup, But I Guess It Would Work In Some Way
My guess is perhaps the foil was used to ground the outer case to the transformers provided the transformer shells are grounded to one of the audio cables.
They're used in cars if the ignition system is noisy from the coil pack or distribution of the spark. Seemed to be more of an issue with older cars, its better maintained now.
I've created a computer room with audio from each computer to a central mixer. at each computer has two network connector one to the computer and the other to the audio from the computer , I use two transformers at each end of the network cable to the audio , they are not set as your 's but in series with the coils , I do not use the screen to something as I do not have some only the twisted pair network cable. The transformer is DA103C
it was probably a model made to be used in emf environments, if you think some electrical components are noisy, you should check out what happens under the hood of a car (alternator whine, and ignition systems being the biggest culprits). In a car system it'd probably be almost the case that the transformers would pick up a ton of noise if unshielded. A common source of noise in car systems is laying the power wire and signal wires beside eachother, doing so doesn't always cause noise, but it's common enough (even if it is a bitch to do run signal and power separately)
in the pro audio live sound scene we use "DI" direct boxes where an instrument has an unbalanced out going to our balanced mixer board in. all they are are balancing transformers but they are electrically isolated. in the car audio world you can get alternator whine and noises of the like. its sometimes funny when using am radio and you have all this interference, usually in the cheaper made products.
@@bigclivedotcom Just curiosety vise I surche some thing to replace me gm 4 pin ignition module ac to dc pulse . Aperantly me linear voltage regulator and me ignition module are polarity sensitive so I can not use bypass voltage from me starter selenoid me fuse pops so I was wondering if there any electritian on your chanel who know how to solve this unusual problem? Ore cinde of pulse multiplier circuet . Because I want to build dual ignition system some thing similar to waste spark ignition ore the old dual coil jaguar ignition system how ever I do not have second pick up coil in me distributor so Im cinde of in trobel in winter time I must get out of car and fumel with ignition timing which is be the way anoying to do. So the basic idea why not to use alternator for power? The old ac magneto culd run car so why not to use that alternator thingy instead? Only problem so fare I dont know how peopel constructed those wires and how they wired them so peopel dont get shocked and how to deal with discharging lead acid baterry if you use ac as ignition source ? I admit I have unusual problems so hopely some one see this coment on your chanel and actualy can give me some advice to help me solve strange problems. In the past I hade strange problems with me car aperantly mostly back charge alternator ,faulty voltage regulator on alternator and some times when me blinker do not have ground ore short some where the car cinde of work like hit and miss engine and actualy works in union with blinker relay another unusual effect that I come acros multipel times is when the voltage regulator fails the car increase in power smuther engine but me baterry boils so I was wondering how to acess those strange acurances and actualy make use of them? I was wondering if there is posibility to use baterry and capacitor banks in union for more power to alove ignition system to work with out baterry assistance? The third unusual effect I witnes useing hv ceramic capacitors I experimented with plasma ignition for a while similar effect like haveing faulty alternator voltage regulator but baterry only charges if alternator is running at 2500rpm so due those capacitors me entire wire harnest get effected . Those are some nice effects but I dont know how to control them sadly. Mostly me problem is related to polarity and ground chassis/baterry negative potential . So I hope some peopel here know how to handel those polarity related devices and can point me at least to centrain circuets that prevent ground polarity to effect baterrys. I know its strange what Im doing lets just say its nice to run engine like hit and miss ore hot bulb so its generator set up so I requare high amps similar to magneto ignition system because I do not have upgrade kits for me engine I must build some thing similar . So tehnicaly speaking takeing 1 wire out of alternator shuld do that trick only problem me E core ignition coil does not have any wire diagrams so its hard for me to figure out how it was constructed to work its not normal ignition coil . So yeah strange problems 😅 I also looked some called magneto signal converters suposedly they were meant for engines who do not have build in rpm readings so not much info on youtube about those devices how do they work so Im cinde of lost there . So Im looking for devices that can multiply digital signal converters but no such luck finding some thing similar on internet. So that made me wonder culd tach generators do the same thing as ignitors on ignition module they do look similar some how ? I realy do hope you have some good electritian folowers at least to show peopel how test wires for polarity so to determine if they are safe to tuch ore not . So I also look for device that can test wires and not to get fatal shock . Im sorry to bother you with silly ideas but that problem cinde of plagued me for years normal books dont realy help me finde this unusual problem .
I remember as a student having the revelationary information bestowed upon me of "not all earths are the same". This was 3 months in to a Physics degree, so the concept of "moving clocks run slow" (i.e. Special Relativity) was already taken as read, but the concept of the earth pin on one socket having a p.d. to the earth pin on a neighbouring socket seemed alien. As my uni had a strong musical tradition, the weird thing was that many/most of us had already experienced this when playing at the open mics and music societies, but like so many things in life few people (myself included) actually understood and hence tried to combat the noise, instead accepting it was just an artefact of the equipment.
Heya Clive! I know this so old but im recently experimented with peizo as pick up for guitar and it's hum central! Would an isolator do the job ? It seems alot like the record head and record head situation in a tape player if you can understand what imean :)
These really are, as you say, a toolbox essential. I made my own, on the cheap and in a hurry, with two 1:1 (600 Ohm) fax modem transformers that I had lying around from old defunct kit. OK, I know it's the audiophiles will tell me how poor a solution this may be but in practice, to run sound files for a show, the little box worked a treat. I do however have two of the very same product featured in your tear down.
The last time I used one of these was 15 years ago, and it was purchased from RadioShack. it was in my car, and it was sold as a 'ground loop isolator'. Interesting to see what is actually inside one of them.
I have a lot of electronics and wires dangling and often pick up noise, I have 3 of these now. The same brand as what big clive has, great, as long as it's on the high impedance side. You can also use these to downmix balanced audio to single ended, but you will need to make your own RCA cable for the balanced end. The grounds of each input are kept isolated throughout, VERY helpful!
I had to use exactly this to fix the hum in my car. This was back before portable digital music players were big, and I just wanted to use my laptop with an aftermarket head unit. The hum (in my case) was from the laptop, and not from the operation of the car.
>This was back before portable digital music players were big... So pre-iPod days, which means 2000 or earlier... You were driving around with your $2000 Sony VAIO acting as an audio player?
So this seems like the equivalent of an antenna balun transformer? It seems like its main purpose is to remove common mode noise from the audio output line relative to the audio input line. What could have been unbalanced current between the ground and signal is forced to be balanced by the transformers. -- about the foil, it did electrically connect the left and right halves of the metal shell, correct? Maybe thats all it was there for, to make sure they couldnt form some resonance between each other.
Very well explained. I was really wondering what this thing does and whether it could solve my issue. Turns out it can, it's just a bit chonky. My guess is that the foil is for shielding. Like the equivalent of shielded cables but on the transformers. It should ensure that no noise can be picked up by the components. It might be an overkill since it is in a metal case already but you can never be too protected from RF interference
The biggest offenders on cutting the power ground pin are those who are not using balanced audio and not using transformers. On a side note, on a more difficult radio station noise issue I had was on a DJ console for an AM radio station. The older console was using many single ended (unbalanced) input channels and was converted to balanced using small audio transformers inside the console. The wires went inside the console and the screens bonded to the chassis inside. Unfortunately a run between studios had the classic ground currents on the screen, but since the screen entered the console, the current on the screen traveled in the vicinity of the bank of audio transformers coupling the noise into them. The solution was to peel back the screens and bond them to the chassis right where they entered the chassis. To find the problem, an old piece of gear made to pickup audio from an analog telephone from the electromagnet in the handset (before it was legal to connect any consumer owned device to a phone line) called a telephone pick up coil was used to trace the current path of the noise. Google telephone pick up coil to see this blast from the past. The pick up coils were originally sold to plug into portable tape recorders to record phone conversations. Yes they looked tacky, and yes the suction cup would fall off. A tool to pick up magnetic fields on audio wires is an essential part of troubleshooting recording studio audio problems. An AC amp clamp with leads instead of built in meter is very useful in tracing currents in cables. Higher quality isolation transformers for pro audio use are fully enclosed inside a metal can with a screen in the transformer between the primary and secondary to stop capacitive coupling.
Hi, I know this a late reply...but here goes... I bought a nice SoundDevices MixPre3 for my DSLR. This an awesome 3 ch mixer/recorder. The usual setup is to fit the mixer underneath the camera via tripod screw in the MixPre. *Both units operate on independent battery supplies.* The screw in the mixer is ground to chassis and the screw in the camera is similar too. A nasty ground loop happens when everything is set up and one takes the mixer output to camera mic in via 3.5mm jack to jack. You gets clicking, ticking sounds and others, which is probably the lens motors whirring away or the IBIS mechanism, all at around -40db....not good. Of course you still get a nice, clean recording on the mixer. I have been told that using something like this will make all the difference. What's you're take on that? I found a jack to jack + iso transformer by Monacor. Maybe double the price of others, but it looks the biz!
I have the same problem in my car. I installed a switchmode power supply and some usb ports to charge my phone. However it makes a terrible mosquito like noise. I'm going to try to add filtering, but might need to get one of these.
another note...with todays digital mixer boards, when you use a laptop connected via firewire or usb to the digital board, laptops with grounded wall warts cause weird noise to leach into the system. in that case ive had to find non earthed power supplies.
I'm not an expert by any means but I think most noise in car audio comes from the alternator. In the olden days, generators were used, which effectively generated DC power. However alternators are much more efficient, but generate AC. This AC is rectified into DC which then runs the car. If you have poorly wired, particularly poorly grounded, audio equipment, the AC noise from the alternator will be coupled through to the head unit. I very much might be wrong but that's my "theory" (if you really want to call it that). I'm open to corrections.
why so large transformers, is not audio line low power signal, cant it be done with much smaller transformers ? the audio between the source and the amp ? or must it be done on amplified audio signals coming out of the amp ?
Used plenty of them in the past when doing car audio. They aren't as necessary in car audio now as they were on older vehicles. I don't think I've had to use them on very much made past about the late 90's. Many vehicles had a major whine from the alternator, and ignition system that would go up and down with the RPM.
would this remove interference noise in my car stereo? I've got a whine from the alternator coming through my speakers, probably because the power wire runs close to the signal wires
Krankie V yes, this or a device like it will solve the problem, punch "alternator hum eliminator" or something similar into Google, there's ready made products made for cars
I have had issues (as you mentioned around 7:00) with stereo noise + engine revving + crappy switching USB power supply in my car. Awful noise result that followed engine RPM perfectly.
I've been having trouble with my soundbar. It only has a buzzing noise now. Not one video on RUclips touches base on that subject. Also my tv speakers sound blown unyet I've always used the soundbar.. I'm assuming if I get a isolator transformer to connect to the cable wire..??
Thanks for this information. I'm attempting to remove ground hum from my band's sound gear. I use my Macbook pro for backing tracks and monitor video. The computer sound goes in to a Yamaha Stagepass 600i amplifier using a standard 3.5mm stereo cable. Might an audio isolator transformer solve my hum problem? Not too expensive to find out I suppose!
@@bigclivedotcom Thanks. I'll have to get hunting. I'm in OZ. I'm looking at this one, but probably not a pro version. But it might be worth trying before chasing pro versions, www.jaycar.com.au/ground-loop-noise-isolator-stereo-3-5mm/p/AA3086
the noise problems in car audio dwarf those in the home and pro audio. most vehicles use the chassis as the ground, and then you have an amp grounded in the back near where the fuel pump and turn signals ground, a head unit that is grounded to some ground distribution bus, along with the AC fan and wiper motors. In most cases thr head unit also has a ground via the antenna coax - to a piece of metal that picks up noises from ignition systems, alternator pulses, fuel injector pulses... The best way I have found to deal with it is to run a twisted pair (ground & 12v) of 6 to 10 gauge wires from the battery all the way back to the amp. connect the ground to wherever the battery negative is tied to the chassis. put a fuse in and connect the hot side to the battery as directly as you can. Tap of these lines for the constant lead to the head unit. use at least a 10g wire between the back of the radio and solder it into the ground wire. this wire is so thick it shorts out the noise from the antenna coax. do not add any other ground points. let the amp be grounded under the hood next to the battery. now because we twisted the power and ground wires, we can run RCAs right next to them without troubles. do it some other way and it might work - for a while. do it my way and it stays working for the long haul.
You can cut the mains ground wire BUT then you must use Mains Isolation transformer. I have used that many times in TV studio environment and it is better than using cheap audio isolation transformer. Perhaps that’s what those audio experts meant. Anyway this is OK only in small and usually temporary situations or if you must make a temporary fix fast. When building real studios, you always earthen all the equipment which have the earthed mains socket. Then you don’t connect the ground wire on one end exactly as you told to do. If you cut the amplifier side and remove the cord on the other end, the amplifier gets huge hum in input. I have seen systems which have built that way.
Hi Clive, the idea of the tin foil is to join the two transformer shields as one Faraday Shield. It may be that the same components/circuit are used with a plastic cover.
This is normal for use in vehicles, due to air-born interference, like you said from the ignition high voltage spikes but the main use of this type of audio signal isolator in vehicles is to suppress the alternator electrical noise.
It used to be worse in the bigger type cars due to the high output alternators used having to cope with the amount of electrical items such as Electric windows/Sunroofs, Air-con, Rear heated screens etc, all quite modern in the day.
I used many of these in my days as an Auto-Electrician in the 80's on big audio amplifier systems.
Great videos, keep it up. Many thanks
+Mark Andrews But then why only on the top, it would need to wrap around the whole thing wouldn't it?
The outer covers the complete unit. The tin foil is only to join the two half's of the outers as they are only joined with tape on the outside.
Mark Andrews Good point.
+Mark Andrews I have worked on the car audio amps myself and seen what you say but have also seen what is called a ground loop effect as what Clive was talking about. The ground reference for some of the kids of my generation like doing is applying the ground connection to their amp in the back of the car to the body and usually in a most horrible way(wire stuffed under a screw that is nothing more than a 16 AWG) and the grounding point of the car stereo connection point somewhere under the dash or to the engine. These get really bad on the thin metal car bodies of the current manufacturing process. See these items install most of the time. Best fix I have done of my cars is to install a decent wire from the ground of the amp to stereo and also run a ground wire of suitable size back to the battery or alternator case for the amp and install a half to one farad cap with the amp.
+Joe Esteph that is correct
i bought one identical to that one from ebay. i just got it today, and it works perfect. the background noise disappeared. fantastic!
The foil is so the aliens can't listen to your music. ;)
+Ken Wolfe But the Illuminati still can
+VREDFOX lol
Robert Gaines lol!
Have a look at those medical shows where the run a 'probe' up a vein all the way to the hart, or brain - Gesss where the entry point is.
The groin, vagina etc, big blood vessels, easy access.
Obviously those aliens are showing the way to the medical elite.
china made car audio often pick alternator whine. .so annoying. .what if ur not using extra amplifier just a Normal stereo where to place this filter ? is it between the radio output and the speakers?
The foil was likely being used as a shield to block out hum/noise. It's a technique often used in guitar electronics where the cavities that house all the wiring/controls are lined with a conductive foil (usually copper) and then the foil is connected to ground. This makes it so that any electrical interference is picked up by the foil and sent straight to ground
I have installed one of these in my car and it works fantastically. Around the time of the install, I also made sure that I had all power and signal wires isolated and insulated. The combination of doing these two things completely rids the car of a static hum.
The metal case is a special metal called a mu-metal. It really likes magnetic fields. It likes them so much it acts like a magnetic short circuit (low magnetic resistor).
The aluminum foil on top of the transformers is used differently. Aluminum doesn't like magnetic fields, so fields are reflected away (high magnetic resistor).
I don't know why they didn't mount the transformers 90 degrees from each other to prevent channel crosstalk.
+Jammit Timmaj: Because it would not work. If you rotate one of them by 90° on the circuit board, the magnetic field vectors are still parallel to each other, because they are oriented perpendicular to the PCBs surface.
Btw, I have heard that mu metal is rather expensive so I would think they were not using it here, but I could be wrong. However the thickness seems to be really thin, so I doubt they are actually effective at audio frequency levels.
+Simon K. I meant to rotate the transformers so their magnetic fields are rotated 90 degrees. Sorry for any confusion. It'd probably make the PC board manufacture a nightmare... unless they decided to use non-traditional transformer type, like flying leads come out from the "wrong" side, both transformers are wound differently, that kind of thing.
Mu metal (sounds like a punk rock speed metal music genre) is expensive if you get the really good stuff, and the cheap stuff is ok enough. The metal isn't designed to block out by screening, but by being a shortcut for magnetic fields. The magnetic fields flow so easily through the metal it doesn't "poke" out the other side very easily.
I think that they put the transformers in that way so that they would fit in the tube.
+Jammit Timmaj 1- More the metal "likes" magnetic field it will shield it better. 2- The noise from ignition and mains are usually electro-magnetic interference, not magnetic. It can be blocked by a tick conductive shield, and the foil will not have that much effect. 3- This device only blocks electric coupling and attenuates non-audible frequencies. More filtration and shielding is needed to get rid of all interferences. 4- Rotating the transformers is neither practical nor practiced.
Has Nas
1) Better explanation than I was able to do.
2) The isolator in the video is used to isolate a common ground in an effort to remove common ground noise. You can get conducted noise from nearby wires (think high power switching an inductive load). The radiating noise can be coupled into nearby wires and especially transformers that were designed to couple electromagnetic energy. Electromagnetic energy is still magnetic energy. I think you might have used the wrong word and meant something else.
3) The device in the video is only used to isolate grounds. There is some frequency modification, but that isn't intentional and is instead designed to prevent this. I'm certain 10khz will pass fine with little attenuation and 100Mhz will be attenuated, but that's just a happy accident and not intended. An audio ground isolator tries its best to not change the frequency response.
4) Rotating the transformers 90 degrees to each other will help attenuate cross channel interference, but is not done because the cost of changing the circuit board is too expensive and probably has minimal effect on the relatively high signals passing through (1V RMS will bury 1mv RMS of crosstalk).
For those wondering. Car alternators can leak out small amount of AC voltage which can be picked up by RCA cables going to your amplifiers.
So, I’m at Uni studying music production and have had whole 2-hour lectures on something you essentially explained in a 9 minute video... -_-
The professors have to justify there pay somehow.
I laugh way to hard at this 😂
This is the problem...
@@rm9308 you're exactly right
Because it takes WAAAaaaaay longer to explain HOW something works than to SHOW how it works. As Clive has previously lamented, you really should be *doing* and not talking and writing about doing. Without some experience in this field, what are you going to do for work if you graduate?
These are great. I've used them in several projects. Most notably was my 80s Bluetooth boom box where I used it to eliminate the horrible noise the Bluetooth adapted was creating.
None of the ones I took apart had that foil on top though but we're surrounded by a razor sharp piece of tin inside the outer cylinder.
As an audio engineer I can tell you there will definitely be some frequency loss. The reason is the transformers are in effect "seen" by the source and amplifier as transducers, even if the impedance is very high. Like any single speaker, it can not reproduce (pass) the entire range of human hearing effectively. I tend to think it would loose a significant portion of high frequency because inductors in AC resist (impede) changes depending on the "Henry" rating of the coil and frequency of the varying AC waveform.
Hello Ria - I do agree with you 100% but most users of these are using laptops or PCs playing some kind of heavily compressed audio so in the real world those comments in my humble opinion do not apply.
Obviously you would use a CD or high quality audio player from a digital output to get the best quality for broadcast. I have worked in some radio stations that actually (shockingly) use youtube grabbed audio or MP3s. These sound awful on FM broadcast. In quality stations everything runs balanced line or digital.
For most typical users of audio if any high end was lost they would turn up the treble bands on a software based graphic equalizer.
Anyhow - well educated post.
FLAC Rulez lol
RiaRadioFMHD773 yeah. It's good but I just use wav or aiff for the reason of hard drive space being so cheap now.
Just don't like MP3 as a rule. It's okay to email ideas with but that's it.
These are ferrite core transformers, like those used on SMPS and can operate up to hundreds of KHz to several MHz. Actually I would be more concerned about low frequency response. If the core isn't sized correctly it could easily saturate at low frequencies. But I guess this shouldn't be a problem at line level signals. Just don't try to pass amplified signals through that.
I recently pulled this ethernet transformer off a computer motherboard. wl500g.info/attachment.php?attachmentid=1690&stc=1&d=1186217169
(Delta LF8505 for those that would rather search themselves)
Just for grins I'm going to hook up some RCA jacks to it and see what kind of funkiness it does to an audio signal :D
I bought two audio isolators ( rca + 3.5mm) after watching this video. This stuff works since for some reason my pc causes a hum and buzz whenever I run any games that utilizes my graphics card heavily. Thanks bigclive
The hum and/or buzz from PC is caused by poor quality power supply and/or poorly implemented voltage regulators on your motherboard. And audio isolator will fix the problem despite the source of ground loop.
i was always taught(and please correct me if im wrong) but "balanced" audio was the act of running the same audio signal through two separate wires with one being "normal" and the other being polarity inverted, once combine they cancel out any noise...
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In fact, a little bit of googling brought up this:
www.ians-net.co.uk/articles/balanced_lines.php
To remove noise from a signal we need some way of working out what is our wanted signal and what can be thrown away. Balanced lines achieve this by transmitting two versions of the signal down their length. The source equipment sends the normal signal down one conductor and a polarity-inverted signal down the other. This is usually done using either transformer-based or electronic output stages.
The cable itself is designed with the conductors having very similar impedances and twisted along their length so that any noise is picked up equally by both conductors, no matter where in the cable it occurs.
The receiving equipment has a transformer or electronic differential amplifier, and takes the inverted signal and returns it to it's correct polarity. At this point, the wanted signals on each conductor are both the same polarity, whereas any noise is of opposite polarity. Summing the signals from the two conductors together reinforces the wanted signal and cancels anything unwanted, leaving a recovered signal which is very close to the original. (this is known as Common Mode Rejection - i.e. any signal which is the same on both conductors is removed.)
Even balanced lines aren't perfect, though - slight differences in impedance, twisting or input gain will allow some noise to slip through. This isn't generally a problem unless you're using very long runs or working in areas of high interference.
It looks like the same as what twisted pair does with networking/telecoms...
+TornTech Almost.....Balanced lines are indeed, differential pairs. Each line of the pair, contains the 180degree inversion of the others signal. The amplifier will only amplify the sum difference between the two lines. Any noise, picked up on the lines will be of the same phase and amplitude, on both lines, hence, no sum difference in noise to be amplified. Clive's explanation was correct however, it did lack a bit of detail.
+bain5872 Almost. DIFFERENtial pairs do not require the two signals to be inversions. In fact you could have all the signal on one conductor, and 0V on the other. The "difference" between the two is still the audio signal you want, and the common mode interference is still rejected. In order for differential signaling to work, the IMPEDANCE must be the same on both lines. That way, common mode interference affects both lines EQUALLY, and is thus subtracted properly on the output. The reason inverted signals are used, is because it increases the dynamic signal range, and drops the noise floor.
+bain5872 The term "balanced" means the impedances are balanced on each half of the pair. It does not refer to inverted signals.
I am aware of this however, without a differential signal (inversion of one line as opposed to the other), there is no amplification nor noise cancellation. It stands to reason that if there is a mismatch in either lines impedance, there would indeed, be a differential signal on that line. This is the point that you seemed to not understand. If I misunderstood this, please accept my apology.
Euro Bum
You are clearly speaking on a subject for which you have a very limited knowledge. I suggest instead of finding factoids, to bolster your sense of worth, you do real research on the subject and please, stop using Wiki as your source material. Good day Sir.
Unbalanced audio connections can pretty much be considered broken these days. With computers, shielded network cables and all that good stuff in modern setups, there's earth connections coming in all over the place. You'll be catching a ground loop faster than you can say "ground loop".
Ground loop isolators are handy when having to interface unbalanced to balanced. One system relies on floating ground, the other is earthed everywhere.
The important thing about balanced connections is the balanced impedance part, actually (if in doubt, consider the case of no signal). The whole thing can be treated as a Wheatstone bridge.
If shield currents cause audible noise, usually one component suffers from a faulty shield connection hookup known as a "Pin 1 Problem". AES48-2005 clearly states that the shield (XLR pin 1) *must* go to chassis directly and immediately, and must not connect to local audio ground first (the connection between both is made elsewhere). Now components that disagree should mostly have gone away by now, but it looks like even recent KRK Rokit speakers (5", 6" models at least) are still affected.
Using one of these in my car helped on eliminating very annoying interference noises from the alternator and the servo steering in my subwoofer amp. Awesome to have an explanation on how it works :3
I used one of these to solve a very bad hum with a sub woofer, was doubtful it would work, but was pleasantly surprised to find it done the job perfectly.
i would say the foil is for magnetic shielding they probably make that internal piece and sell it to people who install it in cases that probably offers a slight bit of magnetic shielding when that same component is in a plastic case
The foil looks to me, bodge job :) Usualy, we always place pair of stereo trasformers 90 degree (eliminate magnetic crosstalk), then we connect the transformer shielding together (eliminate EMF noises) the outside shell is a simple raw steel, to block low frequency magnetic waves from the transformers core, because this transformers has a bit air gap. on consumer level, working perfectly. The best ones uses precision winding, hexacore coils, gold or silver plated shield, and some kind of special core. I even seen mixed E and toroid transformers. What I dont like about this transformers, is the way, how they destroy the high frequencies and the saturation. Use short strong rca cables, and for big distances, no other way, just balanced signals. And yepp, same source low resistance earthing. Or digital interconnect. Thank You for sharing :)
I did a quick test with audio signal generator on one side and a scope on the other, and it looked fairly flat from the high range all the way down to 100Hz, where it started dropping off rapidly. Better than I expected for such small formers, but Altronics have a similar one that makes even better claims about the low end. At those frequencies, I doubt the audio would suffer much by just boosting the low end with the sub amp or EQ though.
Thanks for your info. They were recommending me these for my hifi, but I doubted the audio would be without a flaw.. you fullfilled my expectations.
Thanks again for the vids Clive kept me entertained for a while today. I'm already looking forward to the next one.
The problem in cars is that once you got audio signals from your radio to an external amp the return currents won't just flow through the chassis or the wire but also through the audio ground. The generator puts out a lot of ripple so you end up hearing your engine RPM times 3, 6 or even 12(depending on the generator) in the speakers. This is where the isolator comes in. It stops the ground current and ripple, so you won't hear the whistles in your speakers.
Quite an old video this but the most common ground loop in a car that I've fixed more then once for friends with this very thing is alternator hum from an external audio source feeding the stereo. Like a phone being charged while plugged in through the auxiliary cord. This thing works every time.
Humbuckers or DI boxes are the two mainly used in the AV industry. Di boxes have switches on them so you can choose left right or stereo and earth lift. A bit more expensive than a humbucker, but more versatile.
They are magic in older car audio systems. I’m glad I found your video to explain how it works. It fixed the hat was going to cost me hundreds to fix and only cost $12 aud.
This also frequently happens in car audio setups where you'll get a high pitched hum at the same frequently as the alternator is rotating. It can end up being a completely overwhelming whine. And this little device fixes that perfectly as well.
I was playing live one time and none of the equipment was mine I got up to do the first song and holy crap that mic shocked tf out of me the entire song
I had a similar issue with my external USB-AMP (no ground Audinst HUD MX1) connected to my PC. I was soooo glad when I got one of these and it solved my issues. The AMP is also creating a very loud humming when the USB is not connected to the the PC but its power supply is connected to the mains.
Thanks for showing us what is inside!
These are good for eliminating group loops when you are powering the source and amp off the same DC supply or battery. Very handy indeed.
Only mains hum (and AM radio broadcasts!!) I've picked up on audio gear is when I built a cheapo stereo amplifier kit, earthing did sort-of quieten it down, but, not enough to make it any good for anything other than the bin, everything else I've wired up properly and no mains hum... :P
For a hi fi quality isolator for home / stage use I would recommend Omnitronic Lh-081. Should work ok in cars as well I guess but it may not as good as this one. The LH-081 frequencies range is 15Hz - 30KHz, input & output impendancies are 600Ohm.
A couple of years ago I was going to modify an old tube radio with an aux-in jack for my grandfather, but I eventually gave up on it because I learned that they operate on half-wave rectified mains voltage, and the plug was non-polar. So just by plugging it in the wrong way around, you could end up with live mains on the aux jack. This is exactly what I needed, and I think I might re-investigate doing that now.
I apologize if somebody beat me to it, but in cars, the chassis is used as dc common, so the high frequency nose from so spark plugs can actually generate signals in the chassis ground loop between source and amp can transfer the audio noise through the chassis.
Sorry if this has already been mentioned but balanced line signals are designed for longer distances. Yards and yards, sometimes hundreds of yards, with very puny signals, such as that which comes from a microphone. If you 'lift' the ground you have no signal ground reference but sometimes, as you mention, this can be preferable and the receiving device uses its own ground. The real magic is that the two signal wires carry the same signal but one is inverted. At the other end both signals are recombined and any external distortion, which could be rather inposing to such a little signal over a great distance, is conjured away by the inverted distortion cancelling out the distortion on the other one.... I think....
Dullthud007 The ground that is lifted is the shield ground at one end, not the signal ground/return lead. That is to prevent ground loop currents from inducing a common mode current (and thus voltage) onto the signal leads that can cause signal integrity issues where significant ground loops exist -- in the worst cases it can also prevent currents of sufficient amperage to actually melt or burn up the shield conductor where very large ground loop currents exist (although such ground loops can also be a major safety issue in addition to being a nuisance).
Differential signals don't have a ground reference.
I was PAT testing in a local church recently and found that ALL the amplifiers (main, monitor and induction loop) had their earth leads cut off inside the mains plugs
That's unfortunately really common in the audio industry due to misinformation passed by word of mouth. Even worse now that many of the people doing it have effectively become electrically qualified with a one or two day slideshow and are moving into other electrical areas with the same mentality.
Different substations can be a massive issue even for mains electrical work (as you no doubt know!) let alone audio. I remember measuring 50ish amps flowing down the armour of an SWA. The voltage was tiny...
These one are VERY helpful and was THE solution for a little project some months ago.... I had needed such one too to connect my Samsung galaxy S3 with an pam8403 DIGI amplifier board AND a power bank cell charger for cell phones at same time. (Power bank charger as power supply(5V) for the amp and for charging the Samsung S3 at same time.) WITHOUT the audio isolator transformer,i had cannot charge the S3 and powering the pam8403 amp at same time because of ground problems(weird noises and probably BAD for the digi amplifier).
The foil is for electrostatic shielding. Some transformer, power transformers in older tube gear even, come with a shield between the primary and other windings. Normally you'd just ground it.
The foil links both grounds and therefore will provide a uniform ground voltage for reference for both left and right audio signal,
The big power amps used in car audio suffer worse than you might expect, generally they contain big dc-dc converters, if you have a few of them you can often hear the beat frequency of the different oscillators as well as the other crap. I have previously used audio transformers from scrapped radio base stations to get round these earth loop problems. The transformers are used to interface the transmitters and receivers to leased land lines, nominally 600 ohm.
I have an older Toshiba flat screen television that I'm using one of these devices on. Mine has some variable resistors built-in to adjust the volume. I had tapped in to the speaker outlet & send the signal to a stereo system built for computers. It is a nice unit made by Creative. it has a subwoofer box & two nice stereo speakers. I knew when I tapped into it, this was the only way it would work.
The situation where you have line noise on the audio line is called a ground loop. I use a direct box to connect my laptop to my main mix and amp to eliminate this situation but one of these little things will work also but it's intended use is in car audio environments.. Sure you can use them in home systems as a temporary fix but its best to get equipment all on the same circuit and have proper balancing when installing a home system.
Commercial system are more versatile and are made to be moved about a lot so the "on stage" direct box is the answer to those problems.
In car audio you get noise from the alternator, fuel pump and, onboard computers. The noise is more prominent through HF Ham radios and CB radios but those require a DC capacitive filters and not an audio transformer, Car audio amplifiers of the cheap breeds will need these transformer baluns in the input lines though.
The foil on top looks like it may help with phase matching or the electromagnetic flux matching but it does not seem very effective since it only foil and not a metal shim.. It could be something like you said also to help keep interference out, there is just no real good way to tell. I mean it could be there because the foil tape matched the transformer casing. who knows..
A must have for car audio, too. Great for alternator whine and other issues. Quite often it's not practical to have all the equipment grounded to the same point (star ground) so there will be slight voltage differences in different chassis grounds. Also the signal wires will be a bit long from the dash to trunk mounted amplifiers, and often will have to run near other wiring and pickup noise. As you said, a great get out of jail free card to have in your box. There is super posh version of this where the audio signal is changed to light and run over fibre then converted back at the other end. Great when the cable has to run past very noisy equipment.
I remember helping people fix "Noise issues" with their car audio systems back in the day. They always showed up with one of these devices, I never needed them, and the real issue was always one of 3 other issues...
#1. Crappy ground connections, or grounding points at different points on the car that had high impedance between them.
#2. Inferior or unshielded long RCA cable runs, that were ran next to a large, high current, power cable.
#3. A shitty head unit, OR blown ground traces on the RCA output of the head unit or EQ, because someone carelessly let the end of their RCA come into contact with the B+ on their amplifier or somewhere else in the car.
I'm in NO way saying that those noise isolaters are useless, they are very useful for mains powered equipment with ground loop issues, but they were very rarely needed in car stereo installations to cure noise issues.
It was common practice to put a filter (choke) in the alternator lead to reduce the whine in CB and HAM radio mobile installations.
Is.
I used to rehearse in a shared practice room in the 80's, and somebody had put electrical tape around the ground pin on my bass amplifier mains plug. So we were playing along, I put my shoeless foot up on a radiator, and got a spectacular electrical shock. That's when I learned about the bad way of ground lifting. I also must have left the ground for a moment there too. Scary stuff.
another way of getting rid of noise like that is using Differential signaling, commonly used in XLR plugs, where the regular signal is in one conductor and the 180 degree phase-shifted signal is sent over another, and in the other end the two signals are added and the noise is added too, and so it cancels out. ;)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio
look under 2.Interference Reduction and 3.Differential signaling
this is however not common in most home or car audio equipment sadly
Thank you so much for making this video, I bought 2 of these a couple weeks ago and I was wondering what was inside of them but I didn't want to take them apart and damage them.
I usually end up buying stuff you show, but in this case I've already got a stack of these in use today to break open the earth loops between my 3 PC's, mixer and amp. They're very cheap and work well. Decent bandwidth if I remember right.
They've been around for many years. I remember selling them in the electronics shop in Newington 15 years ago!
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Maybe the foil was used to join the two transformer frames together to help with channel isolation?
Car Audio systems are notorious for an alternator whine that changes frequency with engine rpm. This IS and probably ALWAYS WILL BE the fix for poorly isolated high-power car audio components. Isolators work every time. 😉
Would you need one on each channel?
Aslmx , each isolator takes care of 1 pair (1left, 1right). . If you have front, rear, and sub outputs from your head unit, and you wish to connect an amplifier for each, then yes, you need 3 isolators. Hope this helps you. :)
I have never had a situation where an Isolator didn't fix a noise issue, as long as you use it on the offending end. Once that noise is processed as signal, you can't get it back out again.
This video and these comments are great for me and my Brother-in-law, who are both trying to figure out why our cars have very annoying feedback in the audio systems (his is worse than mine).
Looking at the wiring diagrams there must be dozens of chassis grounds, which can't help.
I know your comment is 4 years old at this point, but I solved my alternator whine by slapping a big ass inductor on the +12v side before the big ass capacitor right before the amplifier. Somehow whine was making it through a 0.5F capacitor...
Thank you for the tear down. The transformers in the Pyramid NS-20 are about a quarter of the size in the unit you have there.
The NS-20 has a plastic clam shell design and has just a small piece of foil for shielding. Also , the transformers are wrapped with tape before the foil. So , the foil is just shielding in the NS-20.
"I'm not a car audio expert" - is literally an electrical engineer 🤣 If that doesn't qualify to do any car audio job, I don't know what else does.
My thoughts on this: the metal casing's essential role is to provide a Faraday cage, meant to ensure that no RF interference can be caught up, then amplified. Given the car audio focus, you are right, the ignition would be the main culprit however other RF sources should not be ignored. After all, you cannot create a winding with the unscreened audio signal cable and hope for the best - that's how you end up with an antenna. The bit of foil between the transformers should serve to discharge any potential that could build up in-between.
I have been in the Pro AV industry for 20 years, what I was trained about lifting the ground is slightly different. The ground wire on a balanced line needs to be earth ground, some older equipment the shield pin was tied to D.C. Ground which was the path that the noise on the shield wire was introduced. If I ever had a humbug was always that the previous installer lifted the shield and didn't maintain the cable twist. I would also double check the equipment by metering the shield pin to the chassis, if they were not connected I would ground the shield to the chassis not the pin and there wouldn't be a hum.
I was taught that as long as that shield goes to earth ground a slight current on it isn't that big of an issue. I know LOTs of older AV guys who disagree with me. If your Amp shield is tied to D.C. Ground you are basically creating a huge antenna for it.
I'm pretty sure that outer metal can provides zero shielding, since it's not grounded. If it is connected to one of the conductors in the cable, then it will act as an antenna, injecting all interference directly into your audio signal.
In a car, because you're generally using the body of the car for your "earth", there's a very large possibility that the earth reference-voltage will be different for every component in your audio system. Because it's such a large surface area, it's very prone to picking up e.m. interference. Whether that interference is from your alternator, your ignition system, or even your mobile phone, it can easily produce a voltage difference between the various earth-connections of the various components in your car's audio system. One of these audio isolators can really fix that problem quite well. And because an automobile is generally such a poor place for audio, you won't really notice the very slight drop in quality of the signal.
My vehicle stereo works very well except when I plug in my phone to listen to mp3 ' s. At that point, I get to listen to the engine as it accelerates or slows down. I sure don't have any miss - firing spark plugs! Lol I'm not sure how I could hook one of these up since the mp3 jack does not use R CA plugs, but I'm sure there is one out there for my needs. I just haven't looked real hard yet.
My vehicle stereo works very well except when I plug in my phone to listen to mp3 ' s. At that point, I get to listen to the engine as it accelerates or slows down. I sure don't have any miss - firing spark plugs! Lol I'm not sure how I could hook one of these up since the mp3 jack does not use R CA plugs, but I'm sure there is one out there for my needs. I just haven't looked real hard yet.
+Merle Mitchell it's the same on my at when I'm listening to radio I can hear the stator mess with the radio
Merle Mitchell my stereo system does the same thing when hooking up my cellphone to the aux in.ive noticed that if I'm not charging my phone there's no noise(unwanted noise)!But as soon as I hook up the micro usb cable which is changing from the usb adapter plug in my cigarette lighter socket.if I use a powerpack to charge my phone there's no noise. Any idea's on a solution for this issue?
I'm glad I'm not a car audio builder today. With all the external signals like can buses, wifi, Bluetooth, and radar equipment in vehicles today, it might be tough to get a clean audio signal. I recently turned up the volume on my wife's Honda CRV with all that equipment in it and on USB audio with no USB device installed, I heard all kinds of squeaks and buzzing, in the background. It also sounds like they have the high-end cut at a steep slope to filter noise also.😮
so its just an 1:1 transformer, aka isolation transformer. and yes in car aftermarket audio systems you can have problems, sometimes the car alternator can leak some humm on wine to your audio signal.
i love your channel😁
we had to use these a lot during the 80's for car stereos. We would get a whine that changed with engine speed from the alternator.
one thing you have to watch out for,in vehicles is the 'whine 'can either be the alternator OR the fuel pump. you also have to realize,all the wiring in the vehicle is acting like antenna so its not realy a simple thing to fix in a vehical
I use a Toslink optical cable to connect most of my equipment to my old Yamaha V800 6.1 receiver. As it needs optical light input to send audio, noice is not a problem. Most devices I want to connect have toslink-support but off course not every device supports toslink. In these cases, such a device is quite useful.
As a 62-year-old electronic tech, I can't believe fiber optic didn't conquer the audio-video patch cable market. It would have been a much better quality sound plus they could have passed the remote control signals and video between devices too.🤔
As a soundie myself, I am astounded at how many others I have seen who have pulled the cutting the mains pin trick to clean up ground loops. When I was an in-house guy in one venue, cables like that brought into the venue (usually by outside techs) would end up in the trash.
as for putting one of these in a car, you get very bad audio wine from the alternator when the phono cables are routed alongside the amp power supply cable, very good bit of kit
I used to work for a company, Road Radio way back in the 90's. I can't say I've ever come across one. We used to fit anything from Philips to Nakamichi audio systems, getting rid of audio noise used to involve cleaning all earthing points and soldering the wiring on the more elitist jobs. Sneaking one of those in to a system would have probably saved a lot of work lol.
Thanks for the post.
I suspect the foil is to ensure a conductive path between the two metal can halves as it would be pressed against the interior of both cans when assembled. If they had soldered the two halves together then I doubt it would have been used.
In car audio you are most likely to require filtering on the power input, especially to a radio, as there can be a lot of conducted common mode noise on a vehicle's power rail that can then get into the tuner (most decent amplifiers will/should have adequate input filtering of their own since they do not have the added task of functioning as a proper radio receiver where the vehicle chassis (ground plane) is also a part of the antenna path. Usually these filters are a simple inductor and one, or more, capacitors to help filter ignition and commutation noise from the power input.
I've seen some comparisons/measurements of these devices and there's definitely different levels of quality out there. To get good transformers with extended bass response you've typically got to get something beyond the common $10-$15 devices.
Foil Is For RFI Mitigation, But Its Already In metal Casing, IDK, Weird Way To Do Things , BUT They Used Wrong Transformers For Such Aplication, They Needed To Use Smaller Transformers, Same Exact Ones That Are Used In Good Amps And They Idealy Should Be Round Ones On A Toroid , Not On A Metal, Toroid Coils That Can Carry All The Signals For Both Channels, Thats Why They Are Two Of Them I Guess.
But Yea, Totally Wrong Setup, But I Guess It Would Work In Some Way
My guess is perhaps the foil was used to ground the outer case to the transformers provided the transformer shells are grounded to one of the audio cables.
They're used in cars if the ignition system is noisy from the coil pack or distribution of the spark. Seemed to be more of an issue with older cars, its better maintained now.
I've created a computer room with audio from each computer to a central mixer. at each computer has two network connector one to the computer and the other to the audio from the computer , I use two transformers at each end of the network cable to the audio , they are not set as your 's but in series with the coils , I do not use the screen to something as I do not have some only the twisted pair network cable. The transformer is DA103C
it was probably a model made to be used in emf environments, if you think some electrical components are noisy, you should check out what happens under the hood of a car (alternator whine, and ignition systems being the biggest culprits). In a car system it'd probably be almost the case that the transformers would pick up a ton of noise if unshielded. A common source of noise in car systems is laying the power wire and signal wires beside eachother, doing so doesn't always cause noise, but it's common enough (even if it is a bitch to do run signal and power separately)
in the pro audio live sound scene we use "DI" direct boxes where an instrument has an unbalanced out going to our balanced mixer board in. all they are are balancing transformers but they are electrically isolated. in the car audio world you can get alternator whine and noises of the like. its sometimes funny when using am radio and you have all this interference, usually in the cheaper made products.
The alternator in a car, can make a lot of noise in the audio system :)
Can that thing be used to convert ac to dc cinde of? Wuld that thing be usefull to charge ignition coil wia ac generator? Is the out put dc?
It's just an audio isolator. It's not rated for high voltage.
@@bigclivedotcom Just curiosety vise I surche some thing to replace me gm 4 pin ignition module ac to dc pulse .
Aperantly me linear voltage regulator and me ignition module are polarity sensitive so I can not use bypass voltage from me starter selenoid me fuse pops so I was wondering if there any electritian on your chanel who know how to solve this unusual problem?
Ore cinde of pulse multiplier circuet .
Because I want to build dual ignition system some thing similar to waste spark ignition ore the old dual coil jaguar ignition system how ever I do not have second pick up coil in me distributor so Im cinde of in trobel in winter time I must get out of car and fumel with ignition timing which is be the way anoying to do.
So the basic idea why not to use alternator for power? The old ac magneto culd run car so why not to use that alternator thingy instead?
Only problem so fare I dont know how peopel constructed those wires and how they wired them so peopel dont get shocked and how to deal with discharging lead acid baterry if you use ac as ignition source ?
I admit I have unusual problems so hopely some one see this coment on your chanel and actualy can give me some advice to help me solve strange problems.
In the past I hade strange problems with me car aperantly mostly back charge alternator ,faulty voltage regulator on alternator and some times when me blinker do not have ground ore short some where the car cinde of work like hit and miss engine and actualy works in union with blinker relay another unusual effect that I come acros multipel times is when the voltage regulator fails the car increase in power smuther engine but me baterry boils so I was wondering how to acess those strange acurances and actualy make use of them?
I was wondering if there is posibility to use baterry and capacitor banks in union for more power to alove ignition system to work with out baterry assistance?
The third unusual effect I witnes useing hv ceramic capacitors I experimented with plasma ignition for a while similar effect like haveing faulty alternator voltage regulator but baterry only charges if alternator is running at 2500rpm so due those capacitors me entire wire harnest get effected .
Those are some nice effects but I dont know how to control them sadly.
Mostly me problem is related to polarity and ground chassis/baterry negative potential .
So I hope some peopel here know how to handel those polarity related devices and can point me at least to centrain circuets that prevent ground polarity to effect baterrys.
I know its strange what Im doing lets just say its nice to run engine like hit and miss ore hot bulb so its generator set up so I requare high amps similar to magneto ignition system because I do not have upgrade kits for me engine I must build some thing similar .
So tehnicaly speaking takeing 1 wire out of alternator shuld do that trick only problem me E core ignition coil does not have any wire diagrams so its hard for me to figure out how it was constructed to work its not normal ignition coil .
So yeah strange problems 😅
I also looked some called magneto signal converters suposedly they were meant for engines who do not have build in rpm readings so not much info on youtube about those devices how do they work so Im cinde of lost there .
So Im looking for devices that can multiply digital signal converters but no such luck finding some thing similar on internet.
So that made me wonder culd tach generators do the same thing as ignitors on ignition module they do look similar some how ?
I realy do hope you have some good electritian folowers at least to show peopel how test wires for polarity so to determine if they are safe to tuch ore not .
So I also look for device that can test wires and not to get fatal shock .
Im sorry to bother you with silly ideas but that problem cinde of plagued me for years normal books dont realy help me finde this unusual problem .
The quality of the protective earth is not just a safety issue it greatly impacts ground loop formation which sends op amps wild.
I remember as a student having the revelationary information bestowed upon me of "not all earths are the same". This was 3 months in to a Physics degree, so the concept of "moving clocks run slow" (i.e. Special Relativity) was already taken as read, but the concept of the earth pin on one socket having a p.d. to the earth pin on a neighbouring socket seemed alien. As my uni had a strong musical tradition, the weird thing was that many/most of us had already experienced this when playing at the open mics and music societies, but like so many things in life few people (myself included) actually understood and hence tried to combat the noise, instead accepting it was just an artefact of the equipment.
Heya Clive! I know this so old but im recently experimented with peizo as pick up for guitar and it's hum central! Would an isolator do the job ? It seems alot like the record head and record head situation in a tape player if you can understand what imean :)
These really are, as you say, a toolbox essential. I made my own, on the cheap and in a hurry, with two 1:1 (600 Ohm) fax modem transformers that I had lying around from old defunct kit. OK, I know it's the audiophiles will tell me how poor a solution this may be but in practice, to run sound files for a show, the little box worked a treat. I do however have two of the very same product featured in your tear down.
The last time I used one of these was 15 years ago, and it was purchased from RadioShack. it was in my car, and it was sold as a 'ground loop isolator'. Interesting to see what is actually inside one of them.
Two coils produces another magnetic field. And to stop inducing that back emf and eddy current aluminium foil is used as a shield. This is my opinion
I'm a sound designer, and I've decided I need about 500 of these
you need to get it from a audio isolator factory and duct tape factory.
I have a lot of electronics and wires dangling and often pick up noise, I have 3 of these now. The same brand as what big clive has, great, as long as it's on the high impedance side.
You can also use these to downmix balanced audio to single ended, but you will need to make your own RCA cable for the balanced end. The grounds of each input are kept isolated throughout, VERY helpful!
I had to use exactly this to fix the hum in my car. This was back before portable digital music players were big, and I just wanted to use my laptop with an aftermarket head unit. The hum (in my case) was from the laptop, and not from the operation of the car.
>This was back before portable digital music players were big...
So pre-iPod days, which means 2000 or earlier... You were driving around with your $2000 Sony VAIO acting as an audio player?
the foil is there to prevent noise induction over the audio line.
So this seems like the equivalent of an antenna balun transformer? It seems like its main purpose is to remove common mode noise from the audio output line relative to the audio input line. What could have been unbalanced current between the ground and signal is forced to be balanced by the transformers.
-- about the foil, it did electrically connect the left and right halves of the metal shell, correct? Maybe thats all it was there for, to make sure they couldnt form some resonance between each other.
Very well explained. I was really wondering what this thing does and whether it could solve my issue. Turns out it can, it's just a bit chonky. My guess is that the foil is for shielding. Like the equivalent of shielded cables but on the transformers. It should ensure that no noise can be picked up by the components. It might be an overkill since it is in a metal case already but you can never be too protected from RF interference
The biggest offenders on cutting the power ground pin are those who are not using balanced audio and not using transformers.
On a side note, on a more difficult radio station noise issue I had was on a DJ console for an AM radio station. The older console was using many single ended (unbalanced) input channels and was converted to balanced using small audio transformers inside the console. The wires went inside the console and the screens bonded to the chassis inside. Unfortunately a run between studios had the classic ground currents on the screen, but since the screen entered the console, the current on the screen traveled in the vicinity of the bank of audio transformers coupling the noise into them. The solution was to peel back the screens and bond them to the chassis right where they entered the chassis.
To find the problem, an old piece of gear made to pickup audio from an analog telephone from the electromagnet in the handset (before it was legal to connect any consumer owned device to a phone line) called a telephone pick up coil was used to trace the current path of the noise. Google telephone pick up coil to see this blast from the past. The pick up coils were originally sold to plug into portable tape recorders to record phone conversations. Yes they looked tacky, and yes the suction cup would fall off. A tool to pick up magnetic fields on audio wires is an essential part of troubleshooting recording studio audio problems. An AC amp clamp with leads instead of built in meter is very useful in tracing currents in cables.
Higher quality isolation transformers for pro audio use are fully enclosed inside a metal can with a screen in the transformer between the primary and secondary to stop capacitive coupling.
Hi, I know this a late reply...but here goes...
I bought a nice SoundDevices MixPre3 for my DSLR. This an awesome 3 ch mixer/recorder. The usual setup is to fit the mixer underneath the camera via tripod screw in the MixPre.
*Both units operate on independent battery supplies.*
The screw in the mixer is ground to chassis and the screw in the camera is similar too. A nasty ground loop happens when everything is set up and one takes the mixer output to camera mic in via 3.5mm jack to jack.
You gets clicking, ticking sounds and others, which is probably the lens motors whirring away or the IBIS mechanism, all at around -40db....not good. Of course you still get a nice, clean recording on the mixer.
I have been told that using something like this will make all the difference. What's you're take on that? I found a jack to jack + iso transformer by Monacor. Maybe double the price of others, but it looks the biz!
I have the same problem in my car. I installed a switchmode power supply and some usb ports to charge my phone. However it makes a terrible mosquito like noise. I'm going to try to add filtering, but might need to get one of these.
They are often sold labeled ground loop isolators as well
I have seen those transformers in large chargers and wonder if I can connect them to my audio cable. May have to faraday cage them too.
another note...with todays digital mixer boards, when you use a laptop connected via firewire or usb to the digital board, laptops with grounded wall warts cause weird noise to leach into the system. in that case ive had to find non earthed power supplies.
If the foil is connected to ground it will capacitively couple high speed transients to earth but the TXMRS Will block the noise anyway
ground loop isolator car audio can pick up alternator whine easliy so the metal case shields it to ground keeping unwanted sounds out. of the rca.
I'm not an expert by any means but I think most noise in car audio comes from the alternator. In the olden days, generators were used, which effectively generated DC power. However alternators are much more efficient, but generate AC. This AC is rectified into DC which then runs the car.
If you have poorly wired, particularly poorly grounded, audio equipment, the AC noise from the alternator will be coupled through to the head unit.
I very much might be wrong but that's my "theory" (if you really want to call it that). I'm open to corrections.
I wonder if the foil is just to help provide a friction fit so it doesn't rattle.
why so large transformers, is not audio line low power signal, cant it be done with much smaller transformers ? the audio between the source and the amp ? or must it be done on amplified audio signals coming out of the amp ?
Used plenty of them in the past when doing car audio. They aren't as necessary in car audio now as they were on older vehicles. I don't think I've had to use them on very much made past about the late 90's. Many vehicles had a major whine from the alternator, and ignition system that would go up and down with the RPM.
They have a new use between laptops and amplifiers.
would this remove interference noise in my car stereo? I've got a whine from the alternator coming through my speakers, probably because the power wire runs close to the signal wires
Krankie V yes, this or a device like it will solve the problem, punch "alternator hum eliminator" or something similar into Google, there's ready made products made for cars
Eli Witt thanks for the response
I have had issues (as you mentioned around 7:00) with stereo noise + engine revving + crappy switching USB power supply in my car. Awful noise result that followed engine RPM perfectly.
I've been having trouble with my soundbar. It only has a buzzing noise now. Not one video on RUclips touches base on that subject. Also my tv speakers sound blown unyet I've always used the soundbar.. I'm assuming if I get a isolator transformer to connect to the cable wire..??
Thanks for this information. I'm attempting to remove ground hum from my band's sound gear. I use my Macbook pro for backing tracks and monitor video. The computer sound goes in to a Yamaha Stagepass 600i amplifier using a standard 3.5mm stereo cable. Might an audio isolator transformer solve my hum problem? Not too expensive to find out I suppose!
It's an essential part of an audio kit for fixing problems. Especially with modern power supplies. You get pro versions with a better frequency range.
@@bigclivedotcom Thanks. I'll have to get hunting. I'm in OZ. I'm looking at this one, but probably not a pro version. But it might be worth trying before chasing pro versions, www.jaycar.com.au/ground-loop-noise-isolator-stereo-3-5mm/p/AA3086
the noise problems in car audio dwarf those in the home and pro audio. most vehicles use the chassis as the ground, and then you have an amp grounded in the back near where the fuel pump and turn signals ground, a head unit that is grounded to some ground distribution bus, along with the AC fan and wiper motors. In most cases thr head unit also has a ground via the antenna coax - to a piece of metal that picks up noises from ignition systems, alternator pulses, fuel injector pulses... The best way I have found to deal with it is to run a twisted pair (ground & 12v) of 6 to 10 gauge wires from the battery all the way back to the amp. connect the ground to wherever the battery negative is tied to the chassis. put a fuse in and connect the hot side to the battery as directly as you can. Tap of these lines for the constant lead to the head unit. use at least a 10g wire between the back of the radio and solder it into the ground wire. this wire is so thick it shorts out the noise from the antenna coax. do not add any other ground points. let the amp be grounded under the hood next to the battery. now because we twisted the power and ground wires, we can run RCAs right next to them without troubles.
do it some other way and it might work - for a while. do it my way and it stays working for the long haul.
You can cut the mains ground wire BUT then you must use Mains Isolation transformer. I have used that many times in TV studio environment and it is better than using cheap audio isolation transformer. Perhaps that’s what those audio experts meant. Anyway this is OK only in small and usually temporary situations or if you must make a temporary fix fast. When building real studios, you always earthen all the equipment which have the earthed mains socket. Then you don’t connect the ground wire on one end exactly as you told to do. If you cut the amplifier side and remove the cord on the other end, the amplifier gets huge hum in input. I have seen systems which have built that way.