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Hey Metatron, do you think that there could have been an army to deliver the slaves from Egypt? Could Moses have been a catholic monk that was really a messenger and told an outside force that could have been more powerful than Egypt at the time?
haven't watched the video yet - but my prediction is A : yes you could but depending on how you move since there will always be some clattering B : the type of armor you're wearing
It really puts into perspective the awkward af Morrowind stealth animation. Even though it doesn't make that much sense as the default animation for everything.
That inspired me. *Sucic's Somnolient Summer* 1° level conjuration. *Classes:* Druid, Wizard *Casting Time:* 1 action *Range:* 30 feet *Components:* Somatic, Material *Duration:* concentration, up to 10 minutes *Material:* A cicada wing or cicada nymph carapace, a piece of (any) golden metal with a sun embossment. You conjure a swarm of cicadas _from the feywild_ which immediatly start singing. The sound covers any soft noise and causes inattentiveness, giving advantage on stealth against those inside it's radius. _Edit:_ Any creature inside it's radius must make a salvation throw against your spell save DC. On a failure they begin to doze off to the feywild noises, and on a successsful salvation they remain alert but the magical nature of the sound remains unnoticed. *At Higher Levels:* when casting at higher levels, the reach of this spell grows 10ft for every level above 1°
@@rikospostmodernlife Dungeon Guard 1: Hey Bob, you hear the cicadas, right? Dungeon Guard 2: *sigh* if you wanted me to sound the alarm you could have just said so. Seriously though, this seems like a bad idea - a really fast way to put everyone on high alert. Even if you do it in the right season in the right climate and outside, I think this is going to draw attention especially if it is a known spell. It also means the guy who is trying to sneak around won't be able to listen for guards that might be in his path or coming toward him.
This is by the way a very relevant point. Would be neat if the tests would be conducted inside, as all ambient noise will practically hide any noise below that level.
Interesting stuff and great set of experiments. I've not thought to test out plate harness stealth as it's just so noisy in my own experience. if you really want to make noise in armour, sit on a horse and enjoy the clashing of plates, at speed it's very loud indeed! Cavalry are noisy.
In defense of cavalry, it's purpose is not stealth, but mobility and shock. Noise is not really a detriment, one can say the noise helps the shock aspect.
@Halbinoni I guess you could put mats on the feet of horses to try to dampen their noise, but I'm not sure a horse would accept it. Also, they tend to make their own noises. If I was trying to mask the sound of cavalry, I'd move in heavy rain - again as long as the horses accept it.
Kingdom Come: Deliverance has an interesting approach to Stealth with each piece of armor increasing or decreasing your noise levels and you can even reduce that by taking the "Stuffing" perk in the Maintenance category which allows you to add noise-reducing padding to the armors that you repair.
And eve without any stealth perks, if I remember correctly, the amount of noise produced by different kinds of armor is pretty much exactly like shown in this video here: Full plate > Chainmail > Brigandine > gambeson. Also I really like KC:D's approach to stealth with the additional element "visibility". Because even if you put cloth or leather between the armor parts a knight in shining armor is still ... a knight in *shining armor* when moonlight or campfire light hits him. :D So if your enemies are awake and on guard duty you better put something not shiny on, or at least wear a coat of arms above the plate armor.
@@lordhelmchen3154 oh it goes a step beyond that. If you have a dyed brigandine, depending on the colors you may actually be able to blend into the night without having to change your armor. What I really love about the way they made the Conspicuousness/Visibility system is that it not only varies on the time of the day but also on the areas you are. For example, brownish and greenish colors greatly serve to reduce you visibility in the forest especially if you have the hunting perks that increases that bonus.
@@Shiftinggers Oh right, I completely forgot about conspicuousness. :D That's another really cool "realistic" concept, more focused on stealth in towns and villages. Though I always found it had too little of a gameplay impact, at least from what I noticed. In general it's just better you have a "rogue-ish" dark outfit with high conspicuousness but low visibility rather than normal-commoner clothing with the stats the other way around. The only place where conspicuousness might be more important is if you want to break into a house in broad daylight so people will see you anyways, so it would be more important they choose to ignore you... But when I want to do illegal stuff in a town I obviously would do that at night. :D
Reminds me of when I was in the army, when we went on patrols we would remove helmets, tape up any noise making metal parts of our kit or leave some things back at the bivuac, and do a jump test before setting off to make sure we were absolutely quiet when moving.
So DnD actually got it quite right. Its not impossible to be stealthy on plate, its just harder, that's why they give you disadvantage instead of making it impossible.
Since the "solution" is as simple as keeping your arms bent, I feel "disadvantage" is too big a modifier and should not be applied. In 3.5 you could give a -1 or -2 modifier, but 3.5 is just a better system in general. ;)
@@trikepilot101 Indeed, while advantage/disadvantage is simple and straightforward, it also lacks any degree of nuance, and the bonus/penalty it gives is rather substantial.
@@trikepilot101 Consider this. Generally when in stealth you're also moving quickly enough to not be caught out in the open and low enough to hopefully not be seen at a glance. Hiding in plane sight could also maybe be done, and walking around like that would be an immediate giveaway that you're doing something you maybe shouldn't.
@@trikepilot101 I think the OGL d20 rules were pretty good in general for a lot of settings but Hasbro wasn't going to support a system they didn't have direct corporate control over. 4th ed. D&D was garbage and had a lot of nonsense rules that were just put in for the sake of having something new and different. At least 5th has at least fixed most of that and was fairly well play-tested by actual gamers.
In older editions, you had armor check penalties which applied to checks for everything from stealth to climbing, swimming, or tumbling. It's fairly accurate to simulate real-world situations, since it was easier to do if you were able to move slower and be more cautious. D&D movement rules are surprisingly good compared to some other systems.
Another point on stealth in armor: some of that equipment is pretty shiny. Historically there were quite a few ambushes that failed because someone in the attacked army noticed something sparkling in the bushes, and considered it could be a piece of weapon or armor.
@@harloweboggin2222 he would be wearing caligae, wich are nailed military sandals. Also he would be wearing two vaginae, one for his pugio, one for his gladius.
Stealth is not only noise, but also visibility: black armor or a dark color is better suited than those that almost reflect white, also if the person is naturally nimble or clumsy. the samurai and mail look dark enough for that effect.
I find this very interesting, because even without being able to test it myself, I've come up with similar conclusions and solutions in terms of how stealth works with armor in the game I've been designing. In example, I have what I refer to as 'light plate' armor, which is specifically designed to not have overlapping metal plates, but still provide a high degree of protection. It involves a breast plate, shoulder plates that are sewn into a gambeson worn beneath the breast plate, but don't come into direct contact with it, as well as bracers and greaves that are all one piece of metal each, and therefore aren't coming into contact with other metal pieces. The idea is that you get a solid amount of protection without sacrificing any ability at stealth. This is mainly intended for use by rangers, rogues, and other sneaky types who still want some protection but aren't typically going to be in the thick of melee toe to toe with whatever opponents might be encountered. On a similar note, I've treated brigandine as having a pretty low penalty to stealth because I've figured being pressed between layers of fabric will prevent the plates from impacting heavily or frequently, and muffle any vibrations that do occur. It does surprise me in this video that mail isn't noisier, so that's something I might want to adjust in my game's rules. All in all, I found this video fascinating, and very much appreciate your work. It is almost always inspiring to me, and I rarely watch one of your videos and don't take away something I feel can be useful to me in my endeavors. Cheers! . On an unrelated note, apparently you were killed in the latest issue of the Spawn comics, "King Spawn #1".
Truth. You'd be amazed at what a bit of leather lining and some hide glue can do for your armor's lames. In a pinch, laminated cotton cloth 3 folds thick and hide glue works as well, especially when waxed with beeswax.
I suggest you look at some contemporary art of armour from the 14th to 16th (battle scenes, portraits, town scenes, ceremonies etc.) century for more inspiration. Armour configurations vary a lot. Removing plates or stopping them overlapping isn't the only solution to the problem, as seen with the Brigandine which is all overlapping plates. Sound happens when the plates are forced to collide and any fabric inevitably dampens the sound.
I was thinking during the first test that you'd have to factor visibility into a stealth test too, especially if someone is trying to sneak in a bright shiny metal suit on a hot day. If modern snipers can see the reflection of an enemy's lens cap, then a human-sized shiny object would stick out in ancient times too.
@@doomkitty8386 Snipers...use modern equipment for that. Are trained to detect that specifically and of there's an expectation. It's easier to see things when you're expecting them.
@@7dayspking makes sense, yet there aren't many shiny objects in nature. A smart sentry in Medieval or Early Modern times would be able tofigure out something's up. Though from the Modern period, listen to the verse of this song starting at 40 seconds and you'll see a reference to identifying soldiers based on the glint of their metallic gear: ruclips.net/video/wsJj5cETV9E/видео.html
@@doomkitty8386 'Civil war period' Soldiers like snipers are trained and have to spot people from long distances away to shoot them! And spotting people in the middle of battle, when you're looking out for them is very different than standing on guard duty for 5 months, 2 years, 5 years never 'spotting' a soldier and then being aware at the exact right time to notice one. Also moving away from fictional hypothetic scenarios. Plate armour historically wasn't always (or in art often.) worn bare. Often underneath a coat, a robe or directly faced with fabric, velvet, silk.
Maybe they should incorporate that into D&D and other games for situational immersion. Stuffing cloth or wool in the gaps which may mitigate the noise but interferes with the armors articulation, sacrificing ease maneuverability for stealth up to you because there must be compromise in all things. Same for helmets/visors in protection and vision, to see better you are making your eyes more vulnerable but covering them up will inhibit your sight. Dm won't let you make wide/quick sweeping attacks if you stuffed your pauldrons, if he's really detailed/angry at you, he may make you roll for the chance your joints lock up whilst moving and get you caught in a bad moment perhaps in the heat of combat?
You forgot an important aspect of stealth. Light reflection. It is as much if not more important that the noise. If they can see you a mile away, it does not mater how much noise you make. You need something to hide the shine of the armor.
It brings back memories of Kingdom Come Deliverance. I loved playing stealth in a black gambesson, brigandine, open faced helmet and bracers. I selected them regarding protection, noise, and visibility. The set was surprisingly good at both stealth and protection.
This is quite interesting, because many "stealthy" applications will require unrestricted limb movement (climbing up things, picking up objects, opening doors, etc). So another reason to ditch arm and leg armor.
Love the video. The real challenge comes from sneaking in tight spaces without bumping into stuff. It’d be fun to set up an “obstacle course” to see if certain armors make it more likely to bump into things/knock them over, as well as see how noisy it is when they do.
Lack of stealth was a significant factor in the Stargate SG-1 series. The human protagonists would hear the heavy armor of approaching alien enemies through walls and around corners. This gave the humans a few extra seconds to escape or prepare a defense. This created a believable reason why the protagonists kept winning against technologically superior aliens.
I was almost expecting you to talk about the other 6 S's of stealth. I imagine the dark colours of the samurai armour would be useful at night for example.
Strangely enough, jet black colors are not very good at camouflaging the wearer at night. Jet black is noticeably darker than the colors of night. A sort of mottled green/grey (assuming you live somewhere with vegetation) usually blends and distorts better.
The only sound that the samurai plate armor makes, reminiscent of wind chimes is actually very thematically appropriate. Like a divine wind before you were slaughtered as the samurai slowly approaches you, with a nonchalant gate.
Whelp. Now we know full plate only gives disadvantage if you move faster than 5ft per round. Also, personally couldn't hear the chain while running. Another thing to consider is that if you're sneaking up on someone in armor, their armor is loud. And if they've got a full coverage helmet, their hearing is also shot. So you could move a bit faster without them hearing you, or with them possibly dismissing the noise you make as just the noise they're making.
@@TomaszDurlej especially in mid century Europe. Think about it they had guards walking around in plate if you was to time it right people you could probably cover your own sound fairly easily. Maaaaybe.
Great test, and partially confirms my original assumption - that armor is only loud if solid plates come in contact with other plates. Maille makes a lot less noise than I thought especially when it's well-fitted.
Absolutely fantastic, love the video. Some thoughts I had. One, I agree that covering the armor with cloth would likely dampen the noise and the Arabs even did this with their maille (though this was to keep the sun off of it). Two, you mentioned Scale as probably being in the same category as Brigandine but I remember Skallagrim showing it off in a video and it was fairly noise. Likely because scale has freedom to flex and bounce whereas Brigandine does not.
I love the italian background and overall atmospher with the noises and stuff, reminds me of my childhood when we made holidays in italy. Much love from Bavaria !
The other part of stealth is the shine off the armor. Visual vs just sound, and degree of contrast in various lighting conditions. Great video though :)
"What are those bright shiny things moving very slowly across the field, George?" "Well, it's not the enemy, that's for sure, Rupert. They're not making any noise." "It looks like a large number of men in full plate." "If they were they'd sound like a blacksmith shop, so it is clearly an optical illusion or something."
Also, I would like to see you follow up on this idea of stealth in armor. Particularly, leather armor in "rogue" classes have a leather bondage look to them. It's aesthetically pleasing, but leather with buckles and whatnot would be loud. Even my biker jacket makes noise. So leather attire would be interesting to compare. I would imagine it similar in loudness to maille.
You forgot one other key element of stealth, visual concealment. Modern day body armor comes with camouflage. There's jungle camouflage, desert camouflage, urban, and even arctic camouflage. There's also solid black body armor, for night time use. Unfortunately medieval armor doesn't have camouflage. Especially plate and samurai armor. Plate shines like a mirror, even at night it's going to reflect light from the moon, torches, or any near by light sources. So forget about blending in the environment in plate armor. Samurai armor maybe painted black, but the metal surface still reflects some light. The shiny breastplate and helmet also reflects light, so those are useless as well. Camouflage is something that a lot games forget about. Even in games where you're wearing camouflage, like call of duty it gets over looked.
Seizing a castle by camisade referred to a crack group removing their armor and wearing only their chemise undergarment for stealth to sneak inside an undefended place in the castle defenses.
Stealth in armor is mostly about the possibility of noise due to unintentional or abrupt movement, such as losing or having to quickly regain one's balance, drawing weapons, or otherwise reacting to the environment.
Indeed, it's not that hard to be stealthy in most situations, if you are in complete control. Because really, stealth is about concentration, and paying attention to what noises you might make. If you can remain focused and pay attention, it's relatively easy to avoid making noises. But it's all the unforeseen occurrences and little accidents you don't predict that get you. In something like plate, moving carefully isn't so hard, but doing so while armed and in gear, and moving for more than a few moments means increasing chances that you will move too fast, bump your arm against your sword, or another part of your armour, or otherwise slip up while focusing on something else. And it doesn't have to be much to give you away. It's not impossible, but there is a great deal of added difficulty, mostly because there's just more to think about. (I mean just imagine creeping up or down stairs in that, or close to a wall, all it takes is forgetting exactly how wide your puldron is, or positioning your arm wrong, and you're scraping metal on a wall). Something like a breast plate, very little to worry about.
@@Lurklen Harnesses vary. It isn't 'full plate vs breastplate'. Lots of different kinds of breastplates and full harnesses that can perform quite differently.
@@7dayspking I mean the point I was making was largely full plate vs breast plate, for the reasons I stated. No matter the harness, something that puts you almost entirely in metal plates is going to increase surface to surface contact, and thus noise (maybe not if parts of it are covered in fabric or leather).
@@Lurklen Goes back to what I said, harnesses varied greatly. Cuirasses and breastplates vary greatly. Some are full of overlapping plates or articulated in a way that is highly noisey, some less. Metatron's got a heavy, Italian style likely Cavalry armour, all plain steel (no facings or backings of any kind.). Lots of large, heavy, rigid components, that are very loose and heavily overlapping. There's large amounts of loose steel there that isn't resting on fabric. But on another fully plain steel harness, most of the steel might be directly resting on and tightly bound onto his arming clothing. With not as many large components, not as many loosely hanging components and not as much overlapping.
@@7dayspking Sure, the configuration is different, but regardless you are sheathed in metal plates, and it's well known plate armour is noisy. Even the more close fitting and fully encompassing ones are going to increase risk of noise (for one thing if you have any kind of leg coverage you are increasing the odds of your feet or leg coming into contact with something, and producing noise) simply because if any part of your body comes into contact with another part of your body, or with something else of metal it will make noise, and even if it is more form fitting, by nature it must have some flex which will not be silent. As I said, you CAN be stealthy in plate, and of course different conformations of plate armour will be better or worse at that, but across the board if you are wearing a full harness you are increasing your noise level and the odds of you making noise by accident. They are always going to be worse because even if you can keep quiet, you must now take more careful measures to ensure that you do. If you have something that does not require any extra measures (like a breast plate) all you have to worry about is being stealthy. Put it another way, at no point is a breast plate alone going to put you at more risk of making noise than a full harness. The reverse is not true. Therefore one is superior in regards to stealth. I mean if you have evidence of silent plate armour I'd love to see it, it would be very interesting. Though I think it kind of against the general point of what the armour was made for, I would be delighted to see some stealthy plate armour.
If somebody is trying to be stealthy in armour, they will likely be wearing a drab-coloured surcoat or cloak over it; you should have thought to test how it sounds when covered in this way.
The problem with stealth in games is partly the fact that you cant really breath and move in pursuit of your target if it is no sound to mask you. Ofc if its fantasy you can have the steathboots of power +5.
Armor could help in social stealth situations. If you are in an area where many people are wearing armor (like a military camp), you could potentially blend in. It's not ideal, but it's possible.
It's pretty obvious that single breast plate doesn't make noise. The noise comes from metal parts hitting each other, so just a breast plate won't hit anything.
Yeah, my mom plays dark souls with me and she sneaks by the monsters next turn when they kill me. She's really good at beating invader player too she use no shield dagger parry build I love my mom 🥰
Lmao..I can't see someone sneaking up on someone in full plate! Unless there's tons of noise...they will DEFINITELY hear you and the metal clanking. It reminds me of a monty python skit were someone is sneaking up and they say "I can hear you" and the other person says "no you can't!" 😂
I think in gaming, we moreso look at "quick stealth", as we want to move fast in the shadows or out of sight and have full mobility for crouch-walking, crouch-running, jumping/climbing, and attacking. For that, I'd say the sound of armor should be judged in the middle of this experiment's walking and running sound. As for mobility, most armor, even plate can be mostly mobile but will have some limitations if your character was making judo-style takedowns and needed alot of flexibility in their body. Doable, but moreso in different armors. Then there's heat, fatigue and stamina use. If your character had full plate with each plate coated in cloth or leather, alot of the sound could be mitigated. However the weight and enclosure (increasing heat) would limit how long you could remain in that armor relative to lighter gear with all the crouching, takedowns, etc. Then there's the fact stealth characters simply don't need better armor, as thy are meant to be unseen and meant to eliminate targets before a real fight. If they're caught, you should run and hide. However that's not how everyone wants to do it, some are stealth till caught, or simply like that extra protection, just incase. If a Stealth character wanted better protection, the best way in my opinion is chainmail under their standard gear, or limited "muffled" plate armor (plates enclosed in thin cloth or leather). They could go full plate if they spec into stamina or endurance or whatever, or from practice, to offset the fatigue you would experience. This covered-plate stuff might also look more like leather armor, and gives a bit of an element of surprise to an attacker who's just prepared for leather. The covering would also make it darker and less noticeable, and less shiny. It doesn't need to be that all-black stealth armor either, simple leather or regular stuff could be more stealthy, depending.
I'd like to see you try a tighter fit mail sometime. Also don't forget to do a control next time you do an experiment. Knowing how noisy your natural movement in plainclothes is tells us a lot about how armor will affect it
It would be really interesting to hear your thoughts about Jinichi Kawakami and how authentic you think his teachings and claim to be the last real ninja are, considering he's honorary director of a reputable ninja museum endorsed by the Japanese government and on the surface looks very knowledgeable and realistic.
Very interesting experiment and set of results - kinda what I thought would happen but great to see someone actually try this in real life! Thanks Metatron, fascinating viewing as always :-)
Great video. Thank you. The existence of hidden armor worn under civilian cloths, as many sources describe, indicates that in least things like mail & brigandine could be very quiet when needed. George Silver specifically instructed duelists to avoid showing whether they had a "privy coat" on, because that could be used as trick to distract & allow a surprise attack when they were in a compromised position. The fact that people sometimes felt the need to prove they didn't have on hidden armor suggests it wasn't obvious, so it must have been quiet.
Idk why but when he looked up at the tower walking on that armors i was like " do the assassino". I know, he would destroy the street but it would be worth it.
Great content, as always! However, what about samurai kozane armor? Whether I'm in battle or stalking a camp, I always wear the full set of samurai clan armor in Ghost of Tsushima because I adore it so much, but I wonder how realistic it actually is to efficiently sneak around in it.
I own a set of samurai armor made by Iron Mountain Armory, like the Metatron. I imagine kozane would be noisier. The main problem with sound is the kusazuri, the skirt of plates. On my set, I requested them to be detachable. If I untied the belt on it, it would probably reduce a lot of the noise. Otherwise, I sound like a walking pile of bamboo windchimes. Anywhere else where there are over lapping plates (sode, menpo, kabuto) would also create a bit of noise, but not as as much. (He mentions the over lapping bits that make noise at 12:17.)
A solution to the noise caused by some of these armors in an RPG system would be to half the allowed movement while attempting stealth in them to account for the more rigid steps needed to reduce the clamor.
I know, as whoever had a men was ranked Captain and who was a high Noble was also a Captain but more senior. That’s something I know but I’m still confused for some reason.
I feel that D&D rules to cover that quite well (keeping in mind it's a simplyfied ruleset for a group game, not a dissertation) with the disadvantage. It means you CAN be silent in every armor, but it requires more skill and attention to stealth with some sets.
I was expecting a gambeson to be in there and just be like yeah totally GG easy cloth armor, but it turns out it's not too hard with other kinds of armor anyway.
I do a ton of airsoft in mail armor and i am regarded as one of the stealthest people on our field. It is super fun suprising people and sneaking around.
I was in a short class given my an ex-spec ops guy. The basics of stealth is about moving slowly, I think he would consider the amount of time you took to open the door with full plate to be hasty (especially with lower amounts of cover, moving around quickly is a big issue). I would wonder how the reflectiveness of the armor also plays into this. It would probably be a lot easier to see the reflections on the metal than if it was not there. An easy solution to this would just be to paint over or otherwise cover it.
Excellent video, Metatron! As someone with a large amount of experience with both Table Top RPGs and Video Game RPGs, most of them understand that it’s not *impossible* to be stealthy in heavy armor, but it *is* considerably more difficult. Take D&D 5e, for example: it doesn’t say you can’t do it, but it does give you Disadvantage, to represent that it is more difficult (you *can* still succeed, though; I’ve seen it happen). Again, great video.
Funnily enough, these solutions are kind of mechanically expressed in DND with the Medium Armor Master feat, which allows you to achieve higher levels of protection while also removing the disadvantage on stealth
A long time ago, my D&D Thief character had Relic-grade leather armor. Very quiet (and basically impenetrable). While watching your video it struck me that leather pads strategically attached to plate pieces likely to rub or strike each other could eliminate almost all of the sound they make, and then you tell us that that was historically done!
Theres probably ways to make it even quieter when running by having cloth line one of the joints to minimize noise. DND definitely needs to change the rules
This. in LARP we (dedicated npc group) made sheathes for the plate we wear from leather and cloth. You still need some skill in silent movement to make it work thou ^^
In case of games, walking stealthy also requires to have a certain speed. Otherwise it might not be possible to reach a destination in time. While the person is soundless, guards might see the person walking there super slowly :D Speed is also a parameter imo
I was playing a Fighter/Rogue with the Medium Armor Mastery feat, allowing him to ignore the disadvantage to stealth while wearing medium armor. He ended up wearing a suit of adamantine half-plate, which I imagined was brigandine in appearance, with painted on stripes and spots to break up his silhouette. His role in the party was recon-in-force - meaning that he'd sneak up, attack, and then hold the line until the rest of the party could catch up. The only thing that really slowed him down was Dawnbringer, his sentient, nyctophobic, Sunsword, which insisted on either being lit or in his hand, whenever he was underground (which was the entire campaign, we were playing 'Out of the Abyss').
Well let’s think about this. Textile padding would obviously be quiet and therefore stealthy in theory. Metal on the other hand would obviously clink so it’s no go. Boiled leather armor would also be a no go since boiled leather armor is stiff as wood and would still make noise.
I think the most important thing regarding heavy armor and stealth in D&D is that you have disadvantage on the roll for most kinds, while on medium or light which are things like half plate to Leather, most armors don’t have that (some of the medium stuff like half plate does, but it’s supposed to be gauntlets, greaves, chest plate etc., things that are louder). The disadvantage can be the difference between success and failure on a roll, so I think the accuracy of the system is somewhat correct. That and characters that wear full plate probably don’t have much Dexterity…
One thing you should also think about is the surface on which you are walking, a wood floor or stone might give off more sound when you make a heavier step. A pine needle strewn dirt ground gives you some dampening as long as you avoid the sticks.
Regarding stealth, what I learned from a novel is that in a forest, it's not about making yourself completely silent - assuming you have to pass through some brambles or something, you won't be able to conceal your noise no matter what you try - it's about letting the forest cover up the noise you make. This way, you can move at a reasonable pace while still being undetectable.
Nice video, just missing some things in stealth as it's not just sound, but also - Sight should be considered. Reflections (shiny armour will reflect light) and non-camoflaged armour will look obvious regardless of distance. Also the need for blacking out everything when under the cover of darkness, this includes weapons, face and everything not covered. The size of the individual will grow when putting on more big armour so you should also think about how the size will make it easier to spot someone. Carrying fake trees were used to move an army where sight is more important than sound or was that a story? - Smell (e.g. armour oils, sweat, etc) if the smell is strong enough a person might notice, but even the absence of a smell will also trigger a difference. For sound you also need to consider the sound you make when some one hit's your armour and also the weapons you use to attack your opponents e.g. whip makes less sound when strangling then a more rigid sword. Generally from what I've notices that thieves need to scout the area out before trying to infiltrate areas, so in theory the best way to be invisible is to fit in and have multiple disguises, much more difficult when in bulky armour.
So you can move quietly in the armor sets, but that's really not the only requirement to stealth. Your objective will determine what kind of 'stealth' you need to employ. Just need to sneak up on a single guy facing away from you and take him out? Wear your plate, it's fine. Need to move undetected past an enemy blockade or something? Your stealth is more likely to be rushing from point to point as fast and quiet as possible when you believe no one is looking, or perhaps just stowing away in some wagon. Also a slight gripe about multiple target stealthy takedown, mentioned around 10:18. If you're taking someone out with a melee weapon you have a near garuntee that your target is going to shout out or make noise as they go down (a body suddenly going limp and hitting the floor is loud), and if your own armor noise was a concern then if your target has similar armor you're not going to be able to prevent that noise. Really though I imagine when stealthing into a expected combat situation, the intent is never going to be to take out everyone without being detected, instead you're probably just hoping to gain that starting advantage.
I couldn't help laughing at the plate armor stealth walk, but seriously impressive how it really doesn't make much sound at all when you're careful lol.
Great video I don't think I've seen such an extensive test on the subject. I think another reason why plate armor was noisy is that they wanted to be. If you're going on parades, tournaments, etc you wanted to show off your fancy armor and not be stealthy. Its likes like motorcycles with loud mufflers or cars with huge sounds systems. They wanted to be heard as well as seen.
Thank you for making this video! I've always wondered and its very useful to actually see it tested. This will really aid me with accurate writing. (Extra points for running through the woods in armor over and over just for the data!) 😁👍⚔️
Something you might want to try as a test if you choose to revisit this is moving through brush and other areas where things might rub against the armor as you pass by. Also, visibility is another key factor in stealth. If your armor is all shiny and reflecting light that your enemy can see, it doesn't matter how quiet you are. This is why modern militaries wear greens and browns for their tactical uniforms
In the MSR I made a vest of 14ga links (butted) for show and when I was playing D&D my DM insisted I could be heard pretty much across a crowded tavern. I came to the next session wearing the vest under my shirt and challenged him. I also threaded a strip of leather around the waist and that eliminated almost all noise even when running with the vest exposed. As I recall you didn't even need to tie it, just left the ends loose.
AFAIK, it was very rare that soldiers wearing armor took them off to be more stealthy. However there is one quite well-known example pf that and it was how the Hojo clan in 16th century Japan relieved the besieged Kawagoe castle in 1546. This is what Wikipedia tells about the Hojo tactic with 8000 men for that battle against enemies who had 85000 in that battle: "The Hōjō tried a risky tactic, coordinating a night attack between the garrison and the relieving force. Going against battlefield custom, the samurai were ordered to leave behind any heavy armor, which would slow them down and perhaps reveal their position, and to not bother taking the heads of their defeated enemies. This would deny the warriors much honor, as their triumphs would not be known or recorded, but the intense loyalty of the Hōjō samurai caused them to follow these orders. The tactic succeeded, Uesugi Tomosada was killed in battle, and the Hōjō foiled the siege."
The answer is yes. If you know a guy or a bunch of guys may be hidden somewhere or if they don't try to hide you can spot them but out of experience: if you are not lucky you will notice to late to properly react. Same goes for sneaking. If you know that someone might sneak up it's easy but in every other occasion you are either lucky or dead. How do I know? Larp and reenactment. Covering up shiny surfaces can be useful if your enemies are in an alerted state or if you are a metal pig is useful but if you try to be sneaky you do that because your target doesn't know you are there most of the time. Silencing your armor with clothing is not doing shit. Sounds are mostly covert by the environmental sounds, talking, not being focused etc. The close area where you will definitely here armor is way to late to put up anything meaningful except shouting. All that goes obviously just for people who trained to do so. A guy who just started wearing armor is very noisy
Good food for thought. I think 5e has the perfect solution within it's own system. In video games or more complex table top games, a more granular system where different actions cause different levels of noise, and where the armor acts as a modifier for that noise makes the most sense.
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Maybe
Hey Metatron, do you think that there could have been an army to deliver the slaves from Egypt? Could Moses have been a catholic monk that was really a messenger and told an outside force that could have been more powerful than Egypt at the time?
haven't watched the video yet - but my prediction is
A : yes you could but depending on how you move since there will always be some clattering
B : the type of armor you're wearing
hi
@6:25 If you sync it with "In the Hall of the Mountain Kind - Latin Jazz"... 🤣🤣🤣🤣
ruclips.net/video/dqFCrSTrEM4/видео.html
Watching someone trying to be stealthy in full plate armour is actually pretty funny, love the idea for the video man
I can imagine (before video) full plate would sit mostly still unless you were bouncing, but chain is free to move and rattle.
Stelth
It really puts into perspective the awkward af Morrowind stealth animation. Even though it doesn't make that much sense as the default animation for everything.
Kinda makes me curious as to what platemail of hiding would look like in D&D.
@@Beardshire a dirty t-shirt with an unbuttoned flannel over it, maybe?
Suggestion to increase stealth: release a horde of cicadas to deafen your enemies.
That inspired me.
*Sucic's Somnolient Summer*
1° level conjuration.
*Classes:* Druid, Wizard
*Casting Time:* 1 action
*Range:* 30 feet
*Components:* Somatic, Material
*Duration:* concentration, up to 10 minutes
*Material:* A cicada wing or cicada nymph carapace, a piece of (any) golden metal with a sun embossment.
You conjure a swarm of cicadas _from the feywild_ which immediatly start singing. The sound covers any soft noise and causes inattentiveness, giving advantage on stealth against those inside it's radius.
_Edit:_ Any creature inside it's radius must make a salvation throw against your spell save DC. On a failure they begin to doze off to the feywild noises, and on a successsful salvation they remain alert but the magical nature of the sound remains unnoticed.
*At Higher Levels:* when casting at higher levels, the reach of this spell grows 10ft for every level above 1°
@@rikospostmodernlife
Dungeon Guard 1: Hey Bob, you hear the cicadas, right?
Dungeon Guard 2: *sigh* if you wanted me to sound the alarm you could have just said so.
Seriously though, this seems like a bad idea - a really fast way to put everyone on high alert. Even if you do it in the right season in the right climate and outside, I think this is going to draw attention especially if it is a known spell. It also means the guy who is trying to sneak around won't be able to listen for guards that might be in his path or coming toward him.
This is by the way a very relevant point. Would be neat if the tests would be conducted inside, as all ambient noise will practically hide any noise below that level.
LOL Cicadas do not have a stealth bonus, no
But by the time you grind out Summon Cicadas you could just read a book and learn Muffle
Interesting stuff and great set of experiments. I've not thought to test out plate harness stealth as it's just so noisy in my own experience. if you really want to make noise in armour, sit on a horse and enjoy the clashing of plates, at speed it's very loud indeed! Cavalry are noisy.
In defense of cavalry, it's purpose is not stealth, but mobility and shock. Noise is not really a detriment, one can say the noise helps the shock aspect.
@Halbinoni I guess you could put mats on the feet of horses to try to dampen their noise, but I'm not sure a horse would accept it. Also, they tend to make their own noises. If I was trying to mask the sound of cavalry, I'd move in heavy rain - again as long as the horses accept it.
@Halbinoni Idk man, it might only work if the horse is wearing ninja clothes as well
Aye.
The "Bring in the cavalry!" trumpets were there solely to alleviate the headache.
Probably helped them intimidate nervous infantry.Imagine that coming at you especially if you have poor gear to protect you.lol
*Stealth 100 while wearing heavy armor be like*
Player's armor: Sounds of heavy chains or metal clanging over
Enemy: MuSt Be ThE wInD
Plot twist, there's also one of your arrows poking out of the enemy's head
...and he's standing there in his underwear because you robbed him.
@@Syphaxis Ha! Good ol' Bethesda Style RPG Gameplay
Player in full plate+chain panoply : *doing can-can right beside the guard*
Guard : "It's rather quite today isn't it?"
Muffle enchantment: *"My time has come"*
Metatron : " Can you be stealthy in Armour? "
Ubisoft: " You got my attention. "
Better then GW making a chaos warrior stealthy
Kingdom Come: Deliverance has an interesting approach to Stealth with each piece of armor increasing or decreasing your noise levels and you can even reduce that by taking the "Stuffing" perk in the Maintenance category which allows you to add noise-reducing padding to the armors that you repair.
And eve without any stealth perks, if I remember correctly, the amount of noise produced by different kinds of armor is pretty much exactly like shown in this video here: Full plate > Chainmail > Brigandine > gambeson.
Also I really like KC:D's approach to stealth with the additional element "visibility". Because even if you put cloth or leather between the armor parts a knight in shining armor is still ... a knight in *shining armor* when moonlight or campfire light hits him. :D So if your enemies are awake and on guard duty you better put something not shiny on, or at least wear a coat of arms above the plate armor.
@@lordhelmchen3154 oh it goes a step beyond that. If you have a dyed brigandine, depending on the colors you may actually be able to blend into the night without having to change your armor. What I really love about the way they made the Conspicuousness/Visibility system is that it not only varies on the time of the day but also on the areas you are. For example, brownish and greenish colors greatly serve to reduce you visibility in the forest especially if you have the hunting perks that increases that bonus.
@@Shiftinggers Oh right, I completely forgot about conspicuousness. :D That's another really cool "realistic" concept, more focused on stealth in towns and villages. Though I always found it had too little of a gameplay impact, at least from what I noticed. In general it's just better you have a "rogue-ish" dark outfit with high conspicuousness but low visibility rather than normal-commoner clothing with the stats the other way around.
The only place where conspicuousness might be more important is if you want to break into a house in broad daylight so people will see you anyways, so it would be more important they choose to ignore you... But when I want to do illegal stuff in a town I obviously would do that at night. :D
From what I managed to gather, conspicuousness is usually useful when you try to pickpocket someone. Too bad I never bothered with that.
This is my kingdom come, this is my kingdom come
When you feel my heat
Look into my eyes
Reminds me of when I was in the army, when we went on patrols we would remove helmets, tape up any noise making metal parts of our kit or leave some things back at the bivuac, and do a jump test before setting off to make sure we were absolutely quiet when moving.
LRRPs, MACVSOG in Vietnam.
@@Dirtbag-Hyena I was just in a regular army unit; we weren't recon rangers by a long shot.
Same . We used to stuff fabric on our kits and jumped . If the kits made any noise inside the backpack the DI would be pissed
@@ragingcamper3967 I mean, it makes sense when making a noise is literally the difference between life and death.
I noticed a lot of the brigandine noise seemed to be those metal-tipped straps
4:42 me running to engage an enemy in For Honor
4:48 me running away when I see there’s now two enemies
touche
Han Solo in Star Wars?
This is so funny 😂😂😂
The D&D community has needed a good, thorough video like this for years. Thanks for making it!
Imagine hiking through some sicilian woods on a beautiful summer day and seeing a knight in full armor running back and forth in front of a camera
So DnD actually got it quite right. Its not impossible to be stealthy on plate, its just harder, that's why they give you disadvantage instead of making it impossible.
Since the "solution" is as simple as keeping your arms bent, I feel "disadvantage" is too big a modifier and should not be applied. In 3.5 you could give a -1 or -2 modifier, but 3.5 is just a better system in general. ;)
@@trikepilot101 Indeed, while advantage/disadvantage is simple and straightforward, it also lacks any degree of nuance, and the bonus/penalty it gives is rather substantial.
@@trikepilot101 Consider this. Generally when in stealth you're also moving quickly enough to not be caught out in the open and low enough to hopefully not be seen at a glance. Hiding in plane sight could also maybe be done, and walking around like that would be an immediate giveaway that you're doing something you maybe shouldn't.
@@trikepilot101 I think the OGL d20 rules were pretty good in general for a lot of settings but Hasbro wasn't going to support a system they didn't have direct corporate control over. 4th ed. D&D was garbage and had a lot of nonsense rules that were just put in for the sake of having something new and different. At least 5th has at least fixed most of that and was fairly well play-tested by actual gamers.
In older editions, you had armor check penalties which applied to checks for everything from stealth to climbing, swimming, or tumbling. It's fairly accurate to simulate real-world situations, since it was easier to do if you were able to move slower and be more cautious. D&D movement rules are surprisingly good compared to some other systems.
Another point on stealth in armor: some of that equipment is pretty shiny. Historically there were quite a few ambushes that failed because someone in the attacked army noticed something sparkling in the bushes, and considered it could be a piece of weapon or armor.
I’ll suggest this to my grandson. I want his education in life to include all sorts of interesting things.
You never know when it may it may be useful...
GG
You’re an awesome grandma! Your grandson is lucky to have you.
@@lithose1764 thank you
Metatron's neighbor: ma! the man with the jesus haircut is doing knight stuff again!
Mamma mia
Ma! Call the fuckin cops 😅
one of the oldest jokes in existence:
a roman legionary sneaks up to someone.
Well if he's wearing hamata, he should only really be careful of his gladius sheathe hitting his body.
@@harloweboggin2222 i wonder why didn't you say mail and sword
@@harloweboggin2222 he would be wearing caligae, wich are nailed military sandals.
Also he would be wearing two vaginae, one for his pugio, one for his gladius.
only to be surprised by his dismounted Germanic auxiliary exploratores already smashed through those someones three days earlier...
@@ulrichkalber9039 two vaginae
Stealth is not only noise, but also visibility: black armor or a dark color is better suited than those that almost reflect white, also if the person is naturally nimble or clumsy.
the samurai and mail look dark enough for that effect.
Black armor is badass, makes you look like a fantasy final boss or right-hand man to one.
I'd rather go say a purple or navy blue, it tends to blend in natural environments better. Especially the night sky.
Bethesda: How stealthy do u want to be in full armour?
Skyrim: Yes
I find this very interesting, because even without being able to test it myself, I've come up with similar conclusions and solutions in terms of how stealth works with armor in the game I've been designing. In example, I have what I refer to as 'light plate' armor, which is specifically designed to not have overlapping metal plates, but still provide a high degree of protection. It involves a breast plate, shoulder plates that are sewn into a gambeson worn beneath the breast plate, but don't come into direct contact with it, as well as bracers and greaves that are all one piece of metal each, and therefore aren't coming into contact with other metal pieces. The idea is that you get a solid amount of protection without sacrificing any ability at stealth. This is mainly intended for use by rangers, rogues, and other sneaky types who still want some protection but aren't typically going to be in the thick of melee toe to toe with whatever opponents might be encountered.
On a similar note, I've treated brigandine as having a pretty low penalty to stealth because I've figured being pressed between layers of fabric will prevent the plates from impacting heavily or frequently, and muffle any vibrations that do occur. It does surprise me in this video that mail isn't noisier, so that's something I might want to adjust in my game's rules.
All in all, I found this video fascinating, and very much appreciate your work. It is almost always inspiring to me, and I rarely watch one of your videos and don't take away something I feel can be useful to me in my endeavors. Cheers!
.
On an unrelated note, apparently you were killed in the latest issue of the Spawn comics, "King Spawn #1".
A layer of leather wherever the plates make contact would reduce the clatter by a lot.
Truth. You'd be amazed at what a bit of leather lining and some hide glue can do for your armor's lames. In a pinch, laminated cotton cloth 3 folds thick and hide glue works as well, especially when waxed with beeswax.
Tell us the updates for the gamr that youre making
The chain mail really surprised me.
Good fortune be with you in game dev!
I suggest you look at some contemporary art of armour from the 14th to 16th (battle scenes, portraits, town scenes, ceremonies etc.) century for more inspiration. Armour configurations vary a lot. Removing plates or stopping them overlapping isn't the only solution to the problem, as seen with the Brigandine which is all overlapping plates. Sound happens when the plates are forced to collide and any fabric inevitably dampens the sound.
"Imperial soldiers gleam like freshly-fallen snow and clank like a kitchen!"
That's all I could think of when I heard you running in your plate.
I was thinking during the first test that you'd have to factor visibility into a stealth test too, especially if someone is trying to sneak in a bright shiny metal suit on a hot day. If modern snipers can see the reflection of an enemy's lens cap, then a human-sized shiny object would stick out in ancient times too.
FR tho. 😁
@@doomkitty8386 Snipers...use modern equipment for that. Are trained to detect that specifically and of there's an expectation. It's easier to see things when you're expecting them.
@@7dayspking makes sense, yet there aren't many shiny objects in nature. A smart sentry in Medieval or Early Modern times would be able tofigure out something's up. Though from the Modern period, listen to the verse of this song starting at 40 seconds and you'll see a reference to identifying soldiers based on the glint of their metallic gear: ruclips.net/video/wsJj5cETV9E/видео.html
@@doomkitty8386 'Civil war period' Soldiers like snipers are trained and have to spot people from long distances away to shoot them! And spotting people in the middle of battle, when you're looking out for them is very different than standing on guard duty for 5 months, 2 years, 5 years never 'spotting' a soldier and then being aware at the exact right time to notice one.
Also moving away from fictional hypothetic scenarios. Plate armour historically wasn't always (or in art often.) worn bare. Often underneath a coat, a robe or directly faced with fabric, velvet, silk.
Maybe they should incorporate that into D&D and other games for situational immersion. Stuffing cloth or wool in the gaps which may mitigate the noise but interferes with the armors articulation, sacrificing ease maneuverability for stealth up to you because there must be compromise in all things. Same for helmets/visors in protection and vision, to see better you are making your eyes more vulnerable but covering them up will inhibit your sight. Dm won't let you make wide/quick sweeping attacks if you stuffed your pauldrons, if he's really detailed/angry at you, he may make you roll for the chance your joints lock up whilst moving and get you caught in a bad moment perhaps in the heat of combat?
You forgot an important aspect of stealth. Light reflection. It is as much if not more important that the noise. If they can see you a mile away, it does not mater how much noise you make. You need something to hide the shine of the armor.
It brings back memories of Kingdom Come Deliverance. I loved playing stealth in a black gambesson, brigandine, open faced helmet and bracers. I selected them regarding protection, noise, and visibility.
The set was surprisingly good at both stealth and protection.
This is quite interesting, because many "stealthy" applications will require unrestricted limb movement (climbing up things, picking up objects, opening doors, etc). So another reason to ditch arm and leg armor.
You and Todd from Todd's workshop, and Shad are increasing the knowledge base of practical armor application exponentially!
Love the video. The real challenge comes from sneaking in tight spaces without bumping into stuff. It’d be fun to set up an “obstacle course” to see if certain armors make it more likely to bump into things/knock them over, as well as see how noisy it is when they do.
Lack of stealth was a significant factor in the Stargate SG-1 series. The human protagonists would hear the heavy armor of approaching alien enemies through walls and around corners. This gave the humans a few extra seconds to escape or prepare a defense. This created a believable reason why the protagonists kept winning against technologically superior aliens.
was really shitty armour though
I was almost expecting you to talk about the other 6 S's of stealth. I imagine the dark colours of the samurai armour would be useful at night for example.
That would be a great topic for its own video!
It would be kind of redundant to mention that because pretty much all armour can be made in dark colours
A lot of that could be solved with a dark cloak over the armor. Also rubbing some mud over the plate could dull it up enough.
Strangely enough, jet black colors are not very good at camouflaging the wearer at night. Jet black is noticeably darker than the colors of night. A sort of mottled green/grey (assuming you live somewhere with vegetation) usually blends and distorts better.
The only sound that the samurai plate armor makes, reminiscent of wind chimes is actually very thematically appropriate.
Like a divine wind before you were slaughtered as the samurai slowly approaches you, with a nonchalant gate.
Whelp.
Now we know full plate only gives disadvantage if you move faster than 5ft per round. Also, personally couldn't hear the chain while running.
Another thing to consider is that if you're sneaking up on someone in armor, their armor is loud. And if they've got a full coverage helmet, their hearing is also shot. So you could move a bit faster without them hearing you, or with them possibly dismissing the noise you make as just the noise they're making.
Stealth isn’t about being silent. It’s about blending your sound into other sound.
I mean, the quieter you are the easier it is to mask your noises by other ones
Yeah it’s truth. But you can’t be 100% silent. And even when you are sound stealth, people has eyes.
I.e. if you constantly scream at the top of your lungs, no one will hear your armour clanging about.
@@insertclevernamehere1186 lol,
Ambient noise is much higher than you think, especially in cities.
@@TomaszDurlej especially in mid century Europe. Think about it they had guards walking around in plate if you was to time it right people you could probably cover your own sound fairly easily. Maaaaybe.
Great test, and partially confirms my original assumption - that armor is only loud if solid plates come in contact with other plates. Maille makes a lot less noise than I thought especially when it's well-fitted.
Absolutely fantastic, love the video.
Some thoughts I had. One, I agree that covering the armor with cloth would likely dampen the noise and the Arabs even did this with their maille (though this was to keep the sun off of it). Two, you mentioned Scale as probably being in the same category as Brigandine but I remember Skallagrim showing it off in a video and it was fairly noise. Likely because scale has freedom to flex and bounce whereas Brigandine does not.
If only Geralt could be stealthy and silent when he's wearing brigandine in the third game
I love the italian background and overall atmospher with the noises and stuff, reminds me of my childhood when we made holidays in italy. Much love from Bavaria !
The other part of stealth is the shine off the armor.
Visual vs just sound, and degree of contrast in various lighting conditions.
Great video though :)
"What are those bright shiny things moving very slowly across the field, George?"
"Well, it's not the enemy, that's for sure, Rupert. They're not making any noise."
"It looks like a large number of men in full plate."
"If they were they'd sound like a blacksmith shop, so it is clearly an optical illusion or something."
Paint exists. Metal armour that's painted with a natural colour will not stand out very much
Also, I would like to see you follow up on this idea of stealth in armor. Particularly, leather armor in "rogue" classes have a leather bondage look to them. It's aesthetically pleasing, but leather with buckles and whatnot would be loud. Even my biker jacket makes noise. So leather attire would be interesting to compare. I would imagine it similar in loudness to maille.
You forgot one other key element of stealth, visual concealment. Modern day body armor comes with camouflage. There's jungle camouflage, desert camouflage, urban, and even arctic camouflage. There's also solid black body armor, for night time use. Unfortunately medieval armor doesn't have camouflage. Especially plate and samurai armor. Plate shines like a mirror, even at night it's going to reflect light from the moon, torches, or any near by light sources. So forget about blending in the environment in plate armor. Samurai armor maybe painted black, but the metal surface still reflects some light. The shiny breastplate and helmet also reflects light, so those are useless as well. Camouflage is something that a lot games forget about. Even in games where you're wearing camouflage, like call of duty it gets over looked.
Seizing a castle by camisade referred to a crack group removing their armor and wearing only their chemise undergarment for stealth to sneak inside an undefended place in the castle defenses.
Stealth in armor is mostly about the possibility of noise due to unintentional or abrupt movement, such as losing or having to quickly regain one's balance, drawing weapons, or otherwise reacting to the environment.
Indeed, it's not that hard to be stealthy in most situations, if you are in complete control. Because really, stealth is about concentration, and paying attention to what noises you might make. If you can remain focused and pay attention, it's relatively easy to avoid making noises. But it's all the unforeseen occurrences and little accidents you don't predict that get you. In something like plate, moving carefully isn't so hard, but doing so while armed and in gear, and moving for more than a few moments means increasing chances that you will move too fast, bump your arm against your sword, or another part of your armour, or otherwise slip up while focusing on something else. And it doesn't have to be much to give you away. It's not impossible, but there is a great deal of added difficulty, mostly because there's just more to think about. (I mean just imagine creeping up or down stairs in that, or close to a wall, all it takes is forgetting exactly how wide your puldron is, or positioning your arm wrong, and you're scraping metal on a wall).
Something like a breast plate, very little to worry about.
@@Lurklen Harnesses vary. It isn't 'full plate vs breastplate'. Lots of different kinds of breastplates and full harnesses that can perform quite differently.
@@7dayspking I mean the point I was making was largely full plate vs breast plate, for the reasons I stated.
No matter the harness, something that puts you almost entirely in metal plates is going to increase surface to surface contact, and thus noise (maybe not if parts of it are covered in fabric or leather).
@@Lurklen Goes back to what I said, harnesses varied greatly. Cuirasses and breastplates vary greatly. Some are full of overlapping plates or articulated in a way that is highly noisey, some less.
Metatron's got a heavy, Italian style likely Cavalry armour, all plain steel (no facings or backings of any kind.). Lots of large, heavy, rigid components, that are very loose and heavily overlapping. There's large amounts of loose steel there that isn't resting on fabric. But on another fully plain steel harness, most of the steel might be directly resting on and tightly bound onto his arming clothing. With not as many large components, not as many loosely hanging components and not as much overlapping.
@@7dayspking Sure, the configuration is different, but regardless you are sheathed in metal plates, and it's well known plate armour is noisy. Even the more close fitting and fully encompassing ones are going to increase risk of noise (for one thing if you have any kind of leg coverage you are increasing the odds of your feet or leg coming into contact with something, and producing noise) simply because if any part of your body comes into contact with another part of your body, or with something else of metal it will make noise, and even if it is more form fitting, by nature it must have some flex which will not be silent.
As I said, you CAN be stealthy in plate, and of course different conformations of plate armour will be better or worse at that, but across the board if you are wearing a full harness you are increasing your noise level and the odds of you making noise by accident. They are always going to be worse because even if you can keep quiet, you must now take more careful measures to ensure that you do. If you have something that does not require any extra measures (like a breast plate) all you have to worry about is being stealthy.
Put it another way, at no point is a breast plate alone going to put you at more risk of making noise than a full harness. The reverse is not true. Therefore one is superior in regards to stealth.
I mean if you have evidence of silent plate armour I'd love to see it, it would be very interesting. Though I think it kind of against the general point of what the armour was made for, I would be delighted to see some stealthy plate armour.
The jumping comparison videos definitely need to be made into a short with a soundtrack added. I suggest Ievan Polkka
If somebody is trying to be stealthy in armour, they will likely be wearing a drab-coloured surcoat or cloak over it; you should have thought to test how it sounds when covered in this way.
The problem with stealth in games is partly the fact that you cant really breath and move in pursuit of your target if it is no sound to mask you. Ofc if its fantasy you can have the steathboots of power +5.
8:12
When you're trying to figure out the controls
*D&D* : You don't get Disadvantage on Stealth with Breastplate
*Also D&D* : You get Disadvantage on Stealth with Padded Armor though
Thick clothing does make noise tho, even in this video
@@AAAAAAAA-vd6zv yeah but if you can barely make any noise wearing mail while sneaking, than thick clothing or not you shouldn't be much louder
@@MandalorSkyrd I guess maybe it would be better to say -2 stealth, rather than disadvantage
Everyone knows DnD padded armour is padded with marbles and tin foil.
Armor could help in social stealth situations. If you are in an area where many people are wearing armor (like a military camp), you could potentially blend in. It's not ideal, but it's possible.
I would have loved to see the Lorica Segmentata tested as well. Maybe a followup?
It probably would have been very similar to the full plate, if not worse because there's even more parts to clank against each other.
It's pretty obvious that single breast plate doesn't make noise. The noise comes from metal parts hitting each other, so just a breast plate won't hit anything.
Yeah, my mom plays dark souls with me and she sneaks by the monsters next turn when they kill me. She's really good at beating invader player too she use no shield dagger parry build I love my mom 🥰
Lmao..I can't see someone sneaking up on someone in full plate! Unless there's tons of noise...they will DEFINITELY hear you and the metal clanking. It reminds me of a monty python skit were someone is sneaking up and they say "I can hear you" and the other person says "no you can't!" 😂
Skip to 4:10 if you don’t want to watch the ad
Hero
I think in gaming, we moreso look at "quick stealth", as we want to move fast in the shadows or out of sight and have full mobility for crouch-walking, crouch-running, jumping/climbing, and attacking. For that, I'd say the sound of armor should be judged in the middle of this experiment's walking and running sound.
As for mobility, most armor, even plate can be mostly mobile but will have some limitations if your character was making judo-style takedowns and needed alot of flexibility in their body. Doable, but moreso in different armors.
Then there's heat, fatigue and stamina use. If your character had full plate with each plate coated in cloth or leather, alot of the sound could be mitigated. However the weight and enclosure (increasing heat) would limit how long you could remain in that armor relative to lighter gear with all the crouching, takedowns, etc.
Then there's the fact stealth characters simply don't need better armor, as thy are meant to be unseen and meant to eliminate targets before a real fight. If they're caught, you should run and hide. However that's not how everyone wants to do it, some are stealth till caught, or simply like that extra protection, just incase.
If a Stealth character wanted better protection, the best way in my opinion is chainmail under their standard gear, or limited "muffled" plate armor (plates enclosed in thin cloth or leather). They could go full plate if they spec into stamina or endurance or whatever, or from practice, to offset the fatigue you would experience. This covered-plate stuff might also look more like leather armor, and gives a bit of an element of surprise to an attacker who's just prepared for leather. The covering would also make it darker and less noticeable, and less shiny. It doesn't need to be that all-black stealth armor either, simple leather or regular stuff could be more stealthy, depending.
Imagine a random passerby walking through that park and suddenly meeting a fully armored samurai sneaking around :-D
Though they would have to have a high passive perception or rolled a natural 20 to spot the Samurai.
I'd like to see you try a tighter fit mail sometime. Also don't forget to do a control next time you do an experiment. Knowing how noisy your natural movement in plainclothes is tells us a lot about how armor will affect it
Loved the video babes!! I wish I was still there with you! 😭💖
4:48 so this is what my level 56 warrior sounds like to the NPC's in town
Fantastic collection of armour. My favorite is Japanese.
It would be really interesting to hear your thoughts about Jinichi Kawakami and how authentic you think his teachings and claim to be the last real ninja are, considering he's honorary director of a reputable ninja museum endorsed by the Japanese government and on the surface looks very knowledgeable and realistic.
Very interesting experiment and set of results - kinda what I thought would happen but great to see someone actually try this in real life!
Thanks Metatron, fascinating viewing as always :-)
Great video. Thank you. The existence of hidden armor worn under civilian cloths, as many sources describe, indicates that in least things like mail & brigandine could be very quiet when needed. George Silver specifically instructed duelists to avoid showing whether they had a "privy coat" on, because that could be used as trick to distract & allow a surprise attack when they were in a compromised position. The fact that people sometimes felt the need to prove they didn't have on hidden armor suggests it wasn't obvious, so it must have been quiet.
Of course, guys jumping expressionlessly in place with armors is hilarious.
I had the Monty Python Camelot music in my head watching that
Ahahahahah, jumping with chainmail was the best moment in my life
Idk why but when he looked up at the tower walking on that armors i was like " do the assassino". I know, he would destroy the street but it would be worth it.
Great content, as always!
However, what about samurai kozane armor? Whether I'm in battle or stalking a camp, I always wear the full set of samurai clan armor in Ghost of Tsushima because I adore it so much, but I wonder how realistic it actually is to efficiently sneak around in it.
I own a set of samurai armor made by Iron Mountain Armory, like the Metatron. I imagine kozane would be noisier. The main problem with sound is the kusazuri, the skirt of plates. On my set, I requested them to be detachable. If I untied the belt on it, it would probably reduce a lot of the noise. Otherwise, I sound like a walking pile of bamboo windchimes. Anywhere else where there are over lapping plates (sode, menpo, kabuto) would also create a bit of noise, but not as as much. (He mentions the over lapping bits that make noise at 12:17.)
A solution to the noise caused by some of these armors in an RPG system would be to half the allowed movement while attempting stealth in them to account for the more rigid steps needed to reduce the clamor.
Please make video on medieval ranks(european or from other ones with that too) and military. Anyway just a request, just do if you want to.
Medieval armies weren't like standing armies, so the command structure was very fluid
I know, as whoever had a men was ranked Captain and who was a high Noble was also a Captain but more senior. That’s something I know but I’m still confused for some reason.
I feel that D&D rules to cover that quite well (keeping in mind it's a simplyfied ruleset for a group game, not a dissertation) with the disadvantage. It means you CAN be silent in every armor, but it requires more skill and attention to stealth with some sets.
I was expecting a gambeson to be in there and just be like yeah totally GG easy cloth armor, but it turns out it's not too hard with other kinds of armor anyway.
I do a ton of airsoft in mail armor and i am regarded as one of the stealthest people on our field. It is super fun suprising people and sneaking around.
So, with the right preparation, full plate or samurai armour can be dis-armingly quiet ... got it.
I was in a short class given my an ex-spec ops guy. The basics of stealth is about moving slowly, I think he would consider the amount of time you took to open the door with full plate to be hasty (especially with lower amounts of cover, moving around quickly is a big issue).
I would wonder how the reflectiveness of the armor also plays into this. It would probably be a lot easier to see the reflections on the metal than if it was not there. An easy solution to this would just be to paint over or otherwise cover it.
Before you start.. I’ve always wanted to know how knights snuck up on each other. Start the video🤔
It works better at..
Knight time
That's a good question
@@ethanrumley746 🥁
Excellent video, Metatron!
As someone with a large amount of experience with both Table Top RPGs and Video Game RPGs, most of them understand that it’s not *impossible* to be stealthy in heavy armor, but it *is* considerably more difficult. Take D&D 5e, for example: it doesn’t say you can’t do it, but it does give you Disadvantage, to represent that it is more difficult (you *can* still succeed, though; I’ve seen it happen).
Again, great video.
OK, so for more tests I want to see picking pockets, picking locks, climbing walls, and transversing open spaces with a rope hand over hand :D
Funnily enough, these solutions are kind of mechanically expressed in DND with the Medium Armor Master feat, which allows you to achieve higher levels of protection while also removing the disadvantage on stealth
Imagine being a dog walker or cyclist and just seeing some random dude running about in plate armor 😂
A long time ago, my D&D Thief character had Relic-grade leather armor. Very quiet (and basically impenetrable).
While watching your video it struck me that leather pads strategically attached to plate pieces likely to rub or strike each other could eliminate almost all of the sound they make, and then you tell us that that was historically done!
Theres probably ways to make it even quieter when running by having cloth line one of the joints to minimize noise. DND definitely needs to change the rules
This. in LARP we (dedicated npc group) made sheathes for the plate we wear from leather and cloth.
You still need some skill in silent movement to make it work thou ^^
I can imagine the planning and editing for this episode a lot of work Thank You 🙏
*Stealth is optional for this mission*
In case of games, walking stealthy also requires to have a certain speed. Otherwise it might not be possible to reach a destination in time. While the person is soundless, guards might see the person walking there super slowly :D
Speed is also a parameter imo
Of course not! I'm in terrible shape - I'd be groaning and hyperventilating.
I was playing a Fighter/Rogue with the Medium Armor Mastery feat, allowing him to ignore the disadvantage to stealth while wearing medium armor. He ended up wearing a suit of adamantine half-plate, which I imagined was brigandine in appearance, with painted on stripes and spots to break up his silhouette. His role in the party was recon-in-force - meaning that he'd sneak up, attack, and then hold the line until the rest of the party could catch up. The only thing that really slowed him down was Dawnbringer, his sentient, nyctophobic, Sunsword, which insisted on either being lit or in his hand, whenever he was underground (which was the entire campaign, we were playing 'Out of the Abyss').
Well let’s think about this. Textile padding would obviously be quiet and therefore stealthy in theory. Metal on the other hand would obviously clink so it’s no go. Boiled leather armor would also be a no go since boiled leather armor is stiff as wood and would still make noise.
You could try to put padding between the pauldrons and the chest plate, but that would also open up gaps that could be exploited.
I think the most important thing regarding heavy armor and stealth in D&D is that you have disadvantage on the roll for most kinds, while on medium or light which are things like half plate to Leather, most armors don’t have that (some of the medium stuff like half plate does, but it’s supposed to be gauntlets, greaves, chest plate etc., things that are louder). The disadvantage can be the difference between success and failure on a roll, so I think the accuracy of the system is somewhat correct. That and characters that wear full plate probably don’t have much Dexterity…
Sneak 100
One thing you should also think about is the surface on which you are walking, a wood floor or stone might give off more sound when you make a heavier step. A pine needle strewn dirt ground gives you some dampening as long as you avoid the sticks.
Dont worry I already know the answer, I played kingdom come deliverance!
please for the love of god please leave me alone
Regarding stealth, what I learned from a novel is that in a forest, it's not about making yourself completely silent - assuming you have to pass through some brambles or something, you won't be able to conceal your noise no matter what you try - it's about letting the forest cover up the noise you make. This way, you can move at a reasonable pace while still being undetectable.
Nice video, just missing some things in stealth as it's not just sound, but also
- Sight should be considered. Reflections (shiny armour will reflect light) and non-camoflaged armour will look obvious regardless of distance. Also the need for blacking out everything when under the cover of darkness, this includes weapons, face and everything not covered. The size of the individual will grow when putting on more big armour so you should also think about how the size will make it easier to spot someone. Carrying fake trees were used to move an army where sight is more important than sound or was that a story?
- Smell (e.g. armour oils, sweat, etc) if the smell is strong enough a person might notice, but even the absence of a smell will also trigger a difference.
For sound you also need to consider the sound you make when some one hit's your armour and also the weapons you use to attack your opponents e.g. whip makes less sound when strangling then a more rigid sword. Generally from what I've notices that thieves need to scout the area out before trying to infiltrate areas, so in theory the best way to be invisible is to fit in and have multiple disguises, much more difficult when in bulky armour.
So you can move quietly in the armor sets, but that's really not the only requirement to stealth.
Your objective will determine what kind of 'stealth' you need to employ. Just need to sneak up on a single guy facing away from you and take him out? Wear your plate, it's fine. Need to move undetected past an enemy blockade or something? Your stealth is more likely to be rushing from point to point as fast and quiet as possible when you believe no one is looking, or perhaps just stowing away in some wagon.
Also a slight gripe about multiple target stealthy takedown, mentioned around 10:18. If you're taking someone out with a melee weapon you have a near garuntee that your target is going to shout out or make noise as they go down (a body suddenly going limp and hitting the floor is loud), and if your own armor noise was a concern then if your target has similar armor you're not going to be able to prevent that noise.
Really though I imagine when stealthing into a expected combat situation, the intent is never going to be to take out everyone without being detected, instead you're probably just hoping to gain that starting advantage.
I want to watch the video series where Metatron sneaks around Italy in full plate armor 🤣
I couldn't help laughing at the plate armor stealth walk, but seriously impressive how it really doesn't make much sound at all when you're careful lol.
i believe that in all sorts of plate a single layer of cloth between each plate might help a lot to lower noise.
Great video I don't think I've seen such an extensive test on the subject. I think another reason why plate armor was noisy is that they wanted to be. If you're going on parades, tournaments, etc you wanted to show off your fancy armor and not be stealthy. Its likes like motorcycles with loud mufflers or cars with huge sounds systems. They wanted to be heard as well as seen.
Thank you for making this video! I've always wondered and its very useful to actually see it tested. This will really aid me with accurate writing. (Extra points for running through the woods in armor over and over just for the data!) 😁👍⚔️
Something you might want to try as a test if you choose to revisit this is moving through brush and other areas where things might rub against the armor as you pass by. Also, visibility is another key factor in stealth. If your armor is all shiny and reflecting light that your enemy can see, it doesn't matter how quiet you are. This is why modern militaries wear greens and browns for their tactical uniforms
One of the most unintentionally funny videos ever.
In the MSR I made a vest of 14ga links (butted) for show and when I was playing D&D my DM insisted I could be heard pretty much across a crowded tavern. I came to the next session wearing the vest under my shirt and challenged him. I also threaded a strip of leather around the waist and that eliminated almost all noise even when running with the vest exposed. As I recall you didn't even need to tie it, just left the ends loose.
AFAIK, it was very rare that soldiers wearing armor took them off to be more stealthy. However there is one quite well-known example pf that and it was how the Hojo clan in 16th century Japan relieved the besieged Kawagoe castle in 1546. This is what Wikipedia tells about the Hojo tactic with 8000 men for that battle against enemies who had 85000 in that battle:
"The Hōjō tried a risky tactic, coordinating a night attack between the garrison and the relieving force. Going against battlefield custom, the samurai were ordered to leave behind any heavy armor, which would slow them down and perhaps reveal their position, and to not bother taking the heads of their defeated enemies. This would deny the warriors much honor, as their triumphs would not be known or recorded, but the intense loyalty of the Hōjō samurai caused them to follow these orders. The tactic succeeded, Uesugi Tomosada was killed in battle, and the Hōjō foiled the siege."
The answer is yes. If you know a guy or a bunch of guys may be hidden somewhere or if they don't try to hide you can spot them but out of experience: if you are not lucky you will notice to late to properly react. Same goes for sneaking. If you know that someone might sneak up it's easy but in every other occasion you are either lucky or dead. How do I know? Larp and reenactment.
Covering up shiny surfaces can be useful if your enemies are in an alerted state or if you are a metal pig is useful but if you try to be sneaky you do that because your target doesn't know you are there most of the time.
Silencing your armor with clothing is not doing shit. Sounds are mostly covert by the environmental sounds, talking, not being focused etc. The close area where you will definitely here armor is way to late to put up anything meaningful except shouting.
All that goes obviously just for people who trained to do so. A guy who just started wearing armor is very noisy
Good food for thought. I think 5e has the perfect solution within it's own system. In video games or more complex table top games, a more granular system where different actions cause different levels of noise, and where the armor acts as a modifier for that noise makes the most sense.