Once they started talking about referring to the cards as items and removing the decks, I couldn't help but smile. This sounds like a much cooler and more interesting game now. It doesn't seem like a traditional deckbuilder at all, and it looks like innovation is the name of the game here. Very excited for future updates!
Nothing spécial this is just the application of the normal definition of a deckbuilding game. Which is a card game where you build your deck DURING the game, not before starting the game. Magic, Pokemon, YuGiOh, HearthStone and all those who followed HS are NOT deck duilding game, have never been. There are collectible card games and the digital colectible card games.
@@saiksaikatai594 even then, in most if not all deckbuilding games out there you start with a basic pool of cards as your starting deck and you build into that, enhancing or removing them later down the line. This is the first example of a deckbuilding game I've ever seen where there is no starting deck whatsoever.
So it is a 'hand building game'. Honestly, sounds very different and awesome. I like how you guys are taking advantage of what a computer can do, compared to what paper cards can do. Looking forward to it!
Honestly, I love the changes. The game sounds super interesting now with lots of interactivity available. Much more excited than I was before, and I was already very much looking forward to it I should add haha
If it ever comes out and doesn't "die" because of a small player base. I hope it does well though, seems it is being made with a lot of passion by Reynad
Hey, if you say that in the item/durability system you are still getting the strengths of a deck building game, i.e. same strategy elements and feeling out of the game then all the power to you. It sounds like a great change! And I anticipate seeing those strategy elements.
At about 7 minutes into the video I was a bit worried this was going to become an auto battler, not that I don’t like auto battlers but I was excited for the originality The Bazaar was going to bring to the table. I must say I’m extremely impressed and excited by the “Item” and durability idea I think this is a unique idea not only for “deck builders” but for perhaps tabletop games as a whole. I feel like this will bring about a whole new genre of game or at the very least inspire one. Really well done Reynad can’t wait to see what you and your team come up with next!
Love the fact that you are willing to make major changes in order for your game to be the best that it could be! I have tons of respect for that kind of mindset and can’t wait for what comes next!
I am in love with the idea and change. You are right, there isn't a reason to keep using decks in a traditional sense when the medium of technology lets you do so much more than physical decks can.
The biggest problem I had with the game was unnecessarily sticking to outdated systems that only existed because of physical limitations. Definitely more excited for the game with these changes. Feels like it's getting closer to being the next evolution of deck builders in the digital space.
Fantastic decision! I actually came across a similar problem when designing a concept for my own strategy game. Even though i started off with the idea "what if i mix card games with x genre?", eventually i just phased out all the things that made it a card game and ended up with just a strategy game that had certain similarities to card games, like a large pool of possible options, resource interaction, fundamental strategies and limitations to what can be played at any given moment. I'm glad to see that my decision can be seen in other works of a similar genre, maybe i was right after all!
This video feels like there was more planning and editing involved. To me it was a much more pleasant to watch. Especially the table was a really good idea.
Biggest change in this system for me it's that it doesn't feel super bad when you get screwed by shop pile rng. Traditionaly speaking, there are situations, when after you bought a mediocre card a super strong would pop out in shop and you give it for free to the opponnent. And throught the whole game he would be using it against you and just rub salt in to the wound. Looking forward to Bazaar even more now.
One of the things this removes sadly is the need to "clean up" you deck at some point. This is one of my favourite interactions in for example dominion, where you want to get rid of starting cards in your deck at some point. Do you have an idea to integrate a similar mechanic in your game? Is there any need to clear your hand off items for example? Love the new video style and the update with multiple people, keep it up. Ben is great at explaining. Hyped for the game!
So it's more of a tableau building game like Machi Koro or Valeria: Card Kingdom? I don't understand why you had such an issue with the number of inputs with a traditional deckbuilder. If something in the pool costs 4, you just click it to buy and 4 coins are removed from you hand. One input. Did you not try an auto-pay system? There's probably no going back now, but this seems like a silly problem to have and then completely change your design around. Hopefully it all works out in the end though!
They were thinking like Game designers and not UI designers so they didn't come up with solutions for "too much inputs" with their limited perspectives They could combine and making playing 4 coins as 1 input like this: Click and hold the mouse button to implicitly enter multi-select mode, then just drag your mouse over multiple cards to gather and form a pile. You can drag the pile all up on once to play them all at once in one fluid motion (You can see this in Legends of Runeterra for example)
I really enjoy the choice to move away from the coins. I also love the idea of having durability for cards (items?), I can immediately think of scenarios where this would be interesting for card creation. Now you can have cards that suit a lot of different play styles and that will create enjoyable game play for all. Now there may be glass cannon cards with high dmg but low durability (like a leeroy jenkins type deal, except instead of health, durability), there are defensive options where you can have items that will increase the durability of your current cards, so defensive cards can become even more defensive, you can now have cards that do certain effects to cards that have more/less durability than a certain margin or even collectively count the amount of durability your opponent has in order to gain some effect. The possibilities keep coming but this was one of those updates that I can see a huge amount of potential coming to the game. Good job!
As a fan who's been excited for Bazaar since its announcement, I am in no particular way tied to the idea of a deckbuilding game and think this direction is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Really loving the higher production quality on the update videos! Great work.
I really appreciate this explanations, setup and the editing. Keep going in this direction! For game change, like it. Match more on the bazaar theme and open up ( I think ) space for micro-transactions, with unique/rare/powerful items players can have at start and use
I think there is some complexity of deck builders that is lost by this change but overall I think it'll lead to new and unique experiences that aren't otherwise found in deck builders. I love the openness about the direction you are taking the game, and am looking forward to whats to come in the future. What I think is most important in this kind of game is that there is creative strategies and meaningful choices every game - which appears to still be possible.
I was a bit sceptical about the removal of 'cards' and the 'deck' at first, but after watching this update I've been put at ease. I think the changes to the game that you describe are intuitive and still maintain the feeling of building up a deck of cards, without needing to be specifically restricted to the mechanics of what decks and cards entail. I think the fact that cards are now 'items' also fits really well with the flavour of being at an inter-dimensional market place. I imagine the 'combat' feels more like some exaggerated bartering battle to get the best items and deals that you can and become the best shopper possible. I personally hope that the items that you buy, rather than being some kind of 3D model object that sits in your 'deck space' with a tooltip, is still represented as some kind of card, as I feel like the 2D art assets are more charming, and a card is a more natural or elegant way to organise your objects and explain what they do clearly. Overall I'm excited with the change. It strikes me at this stage as being a nice midpoint between Hearthstone and Hearthstone Battlegrounds, where you feel like you are playing with a deck (as opposed to a war band), but have the complexity of having to pick between things to buy and use repeatedly. I think durability is a great way to balance your items, but that there should still be some kind of item cap (maybe 10) to incentivise you to use the durability of your items up.
@@reynad27 I think maybe tiles with the art sort of like the condensed minions in hearthstone is a good way to have them sit in the zone, also makes it easier to fit a few more in there. I personally would still like it if when you hover over them to see an effect it would have a 'card' that would show its effect/durability and any other pertinent features in the one spot. In this regard I mainly see cards as a flavour option that you won't actually be using to play the game, but just because it's an efficient way to condense a series of information. It also would be an efficient way of organising some kind of browsable collection in the main menu. I think as far as outside of the actual game too, having card designs means that they can be sold as physical souvenirs/ special merchandise if its deemed economical to do so, but some additional food for thought anyway.
It will be interesting to see how this affects balance. A core aspect of traditional card games is not knowing what cards you'll be able to play since you draw random cards. With the randomization being shifted to the shops, it will still have that element, but also a lot more strategy and control involved. Super hyped to see what kind of game this becomes! I just hope we don't have to do tons of hand-tracking stuff and analyzing opponents' hands to predict their moves. That would put insane strain on the brain. Kind of like having the Frozen Eye relic in Slay the Spire, which allows you to see your entire deck in order - you're strategically incentivised to basically plan out the entire game each turn and it really slows things down and makes the game stressful.
Thanks for the feedback! I agree that we should avoid that. I think that in our game, it's more like seeing your opponent's board of creatures, rather than hand tracking. The other updates this month will go over everything more in-depth
Literally had no idea this was here, was wondering why there weren't any updates on the channel. As for the change, I think it's an interesting one and still is a "deck builder" especially if you are able to interact with the upcoming cards to purchase. The deck is smaller than we're used to, but that will likely increase the speed of games (while, hopefully, not reducing potential complexity).
That was a great solution I was thinking durability would solve the problem before you mention it and that way you can make slight power difference in cards making stronger cards cost less durability good job guys.
What I was most bought into is something I still hope to see in the game, and it's still something that can work but would take significant changes I think, was certain classes building towards certain recipes and super cards by picking other things earlier. So like the chef starts by grabbing ingredients and then has a list of different combinations that are available to him so he can see what he wants to build to or maybe he just wants to cash them in now. Things like the mage getting more likely to be offered certain spells in the future if he took something in the past, the explorer/archaeologist discovering fossils that become dinosaurs fighting on their side. Some kind of building for a plan and having different possible outcomes available to you.
I've ended up with a bit of a similar design in a physical card game I've been designing, for different reasons. I realized that part of the idea of having a pre-constructed deck in collectible card games is to add variance to the game, since the player can have full choice on what cards they want to play with, and there might thus not be any randomness there. But a deck-building game includes the discovery process for cards, which is already random. So I figured that the deck's added randomness might not be needed and I removed it. So it is currently more of a hand-building game. The durability counters seem like a nice solution. In a physical game they initially sound too clunky, so I might go with a limited hand size instead. Then the player will be forced to get rid of their worse cards to make room for better ones.
The item concept sounds cool, and more importantly, versatile. If you think of artifacts in MTG, they're easily the most versatile card. They can have a constant affect like an aura, be used as monsters, or be activated like spells. Also kind of reminds me of Munchkin, where really all your good stuff is item cards.
It's definitely leaning more towards a TFT style game than a deck builder, which makes sense considering many people agree that TFT has the same game loop as a deck builder. I really like where it's going, because it still has such a unique identity that it won't get overshadowed by a similar game, but it still fits into the TFT genre for entertainment.
As not only an aspiring developer, but also a fan of card games, this was a really cool process video to watch. I think a lot can be learned from the stepping back and reanalyzing you guys had to do, and getting to the realization of what game you're really making and how to get there. Can't wait for more updates
Amazing presentation. While it’s great to see you talking candidly at your streaming chair, this type of production feels great. And as for the game choices, I’m happy! Honestly, I just want to see you succeed and be a part of it since I have known you from streaming for a lot of years.
It's been fun to watch this process! Thank you for sharing it with us all. I could never come up with the ideas you guys have, so I love seeing the evolution of the game and knowing that the product we are getting is the best iteration it can be. Keep up the good work!
I feel there was an intuitive way for this to work with the old system, just double click a card to play all cards of the same type in hand (double clicking coins plays all coins). However, I prefer what you guys did a lot more, looks like a much better system for digital. And you can balance cards around with durability costs.
Wow, what an awesome video and fantastic insight into the game development process. I wish more developers took the time to explain things like this. I look forward to playing!
Does it mean that we will know what the oppo had in their hands all the time ? Wouldn't it be too rely on the rng on the shop on ur side ? Well ... just popping out my ideas . Fully support! Gd forehead!
Yes, you do see the opponent's items. I don't know how we would reintroduce hidden information, but we don't want to anyway. Probabilistic risk analysis is overrated. Hidden information rewards memorization, paying attention, and game knowledge. We don't want players to focus on those things. External tools shouldn't feel mandatory, and streamers shouldn't be at a disadvantage. The way that players buy items hasn't changed, except they go onto their board rather than in a deck. There isn't more RNG than before.
Gotta say it felt pretty bad watching this up the middle point. I knew you were going to pitch us that the deck part was going to be removed. Seeing what you replaced it with tho, makes me really excited! That looks so fun! Also I think "items" gives the game a more "bazar" feel to it. Theming is very important to me and I think this change is an improvement to that.
Bold idea to eliminate the concept of the traditional deck entirely, and the way it's presented at the end is super exciting. To have an economy based on item usage with durability, ways to buff them, etc. Even powerful swing cards perhaps removing an item, or at least MTG-like exiling the item while that card is in play. Still have my lanyard - so excited for the game!
There might be a problem with this. Lets compare this to a card game like Hearthstone. The board is where your hand used to be. Thats where you place cards that you can control and your opponent can target. Your hand is where the board used to be. Thats where the cards which are available to play can be found. Now where has the deck gone? It is replaced with all the cards from your class. Now imagine Hearthstone but instead of a deck you play with all of your class cards. Deckbuilding games solve this by making your card choices permanent, but here the cards are gone after a certain number of uses. This also takes away a lot of design space in terms of synergies and combos because all of theese are limited to short-term. I would add a game mechanic that lets you bring back used items. Maybe a part of the shop only displays cards that you already purchased that game. This would make the game more strategic and synergies more viable.
Wew this is a big change to the design of the game... I'm not a big fan of the change but I can see why you did it. First I want to point out why I am not a big fan of this change and then suggest a way of fixing the problem you guys talked about (unnecessary inputs by dragging every coin) The first disadvantages that came to my mind are: - extremly simplified "deckbuilding": why? In a normal deckbuilding game like for example dominion one key part is managing your decksize by removing useless cards of your deck over time and getting stronger/better ones that either synergize with each other or straight up give you more economy. A deckbuilding game is not just about "which out of these cards fits best into my deck" it is also about "does this card still improve the average powerlevel of my deck or does it have good synergy with enough cards in my deck to justify taking it" - if the answer is no you wait for better cards or (if the cards have multiple options like either +2 coins or +1 attack) use your economy-card for an attack instead. In addition in traditional deckbuilding games you need to make sure that the cards you add to your deck will have a purpose 10+ rounds from now on. - losing the "I own this card now"-feeling The problem with adding durability to cards is that you feel bad playing your card. This might not be the case for experienced/competitive players but I believe this has to feel bad for players new to the game (like it feels terrible if your Item breaks in Diablo 1 and you actually lose it - There is a reason why in newer games the item no longer disappears after breaking) After you play your item a few times you will lose it and if you like the item you probably dont want to lose it and therefor just dont play it instead. - no "if your deck has no/any cards of X you gain Y"-effects or choose a card from your deck, draw it or similiar effects Examples for this would be hearthstones (I know not a deckbuilding game - doesnt mean that it is not relevant tho) "If your deck only consists of equal costing cards" or dominions "at the end of the game you gain 1 point for every 5 cards in your deck" (which rewards a risky playstyle of buying multiple "not so great" cards instead of single strong ones to your deck) The way I would have solved this problem would be by having your coins and attack-cards on your hand (just like originally planned) but instead of playing them out one by one you would just click the card you want to buy and by hovering over the shop-card it highlights the cards in your hand it would play in order to get that card. For example you have the following hand: - coin (gain 1 gold this turn when used) - coin - cursed coin (gain 1 gold this turn, deal 1 damage to yourself) - coin - coin and the market has the following items/cards: - frostbolt (cost 4 gold - shins green) - firebolt (cost 5 gold - shins green) - blizzard (cost 6 gold - shins red) by hovering over the frostbolt all of your standard coins would highlight (for example a glowing-border effect) and when clicking on the frostbolt all of your coins would be played (so hand item 1, 2, 4, 5 with a super fast animation) and the frostbolt goes into your discard pile. by hovering over the firebolt all of your 5 handcards are highlighted and when clicking on it you play all of them (so you deal 1 damage to yourself, get 5 gold and then lose those 5 gold to aquire the firebolt) by hovering over the blizzard nothing happens and clicking on it just highlights the already red marked cost of 6 (because you only have up to 5 gold) Sometimes there will be situations where the order of the cards played matters (or which cards are played) in those cases the player can synergize with the simple mechanism by playing the cards out of his hand first one by one (or as many as he would like) - when playing out economy cards your gold for this round will increase and shown on the ui. This stuff can also be used for weapons. If you hover over an enemy your cards with attack that will be used will be highlighted or alternativly you drag and drop your attack-cards from your hand onto the enemy. In the end I want to say that this does not sound like a deckbuilding game at all This sounds way more like a rpg-game on which you control a character that has up to X amount of items. By using an item (for example its sword) you damage an enemy but it loses durability. You can buy new items from the shop and then use those items. For me this does sound like a completly different game. It sounds simpler/different. You said you wanted to make the best game you could which makes sense but these two games are so different it is like creating dota instead of warcraft 3. Sure you still have heroes in both of them and you could argue dota is also a bit of a real time strategy game but they play waay different. I was excited to build up my empire during the game and fill my deck with some overpowered combos and not building up an overpowered combo in my hand that I can use one or two times before atleast one of those break. I hope I was able to get my point of view across properly. Whatever your decision is I'm gonna try it out - The difference might be that I play this for 10 hours and not the 1000 hours that I previously expected. Anyways I wish you good luck with the game noodl
your proposal is kinda like how wotc handles mtga's auto tapping lands, which is where i was thinking a working solution for dominion style coin card interaction could be
Your point about “feeling bad” about using your favorite card and having it run out of durability is interesting but I don’t think it necessarily is a problem if you really think about how card games work. My favorite card in Hearthstone is Tirion. Wanna know how often Tirion actually gets to do things after I play him? Basically never because the opponent has hard removal or silence or transform effects. I still love having him in a deck and playing him though. Usually your cards in a card game get only brief use, the excitement is when you can use them to maximum effectiveness and durability does not interfere with that possibility
@@Bryan-nw3gh I agree with his point about "feeling bad" and I don't think Tirion is that apt of an example. In a game like Hearthstone you don't expect your cards to have more than just it's one use and the only disincentive to play them is your opponent having an answer to it. You're actually incentivized to play your cards because if you don't you're wasting tempo. I'm going to use the game Slay the Spire as an example. My favorite card in it is one called "All for One" which draws all your 0-cost cards from your discard pile. I LOVE this card because the type of deck it goes well with is one that goes through the deck quickly and likes replaying the cards you have in the deck as many times as you can. It would suck if the card only had 3 uses and broke. "All for One" is a rare strong card that actually props the entire archetype and seeing the linchpin for your deck lose durability and eventually break, leaving you with only 0 cost cards, would feel bad. That said, I don't think the durability system is a bad change. The game loses a big part of the deck building feeling but in it's place you would have the complexity of making the decision of saving the uses of your cards or using them immediately. I think if you go in the game without the expectations of it being a deck builder, you wouldn't feel any disappointment.
Thank you for the great feedback. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and it's a lot like the thought process we went through ourselves. This first update only covered our reasoning for removing decks as the zone where cards go. The next big update, which we've already recorded, will go over our solutions for durability-related problems. A pure deckbuilding game has a lot of issues with a lack of design space, because most cards are restricted to 1 timing that you can play them. If cards are permanents rather than 'spells' like they are in Dominion, you open up the design space a ton. That's another big reason we wanted to move away from decks- too many inputs was just one of several problems. Last year we discussed the input solution you proposed, but it became messy once cards had 2 effects- one of which was generating money
Isn't it just a Draft Deck Builder? The core game concept sounds like you don't have the ability to define your playstyle, rather you have to adapt to what the RNG gods offer you. I feel like this isn't the best idea unless the "heroes" offer a way to augment card options. One thing I would of suggest is that rather than remove the DeckBuilding aspect, you create a 2 deck system of 20 cards, 20 cards are the resources you buy with the durability and the other 20 cards are your own deck you can draw from at a certain cost, say 1 gold per draw up to 5 draws per turn accumulative. So if you want to draw 5 from your deck you would have to pay 15 gold. Basically the other 2 20 card decks would be shuffled together to form the resources you buy, meaning it's combination of what you are your opponent are strategizing with the whole gimmick being you have the ability to buy out their resources to undermine their strategy and vice versa, or you could be tricked into thinking they have X strategy but it's a dead card they are tempting you to buy.
Haven't been following the game since whenever it was announced, but card durability is super interesting. Seems like it could also appear really easily through the visuals, ie a "wooden" item/card vs a "metal" or a "magical" material that changes when targeted (ie "traps" in Hearthstone). I truthfully wasn't super interested in deckbuilding archetype, whatever's going on now seems pretty intriguing.
IDK WHAT A DECK BUILDER IS BUT THE MECHANIC SOUNDS LIKE ARENA FROM HEARTHSTONE, DRAFT FROM MTGA AND SLAY THE SPIRE WHEN YOU ARE PICKING CARDS MID GAME SO IM IN
The thing I care about most is that the best version of the game is going to be the one that releases. I trust the team to make a great game regardless of what the game looks like at the end of the development.
ngl, this starts to feel more and more like Prismata with every new update, lol. I do like how they fixed the issue with infinitely scaling boards, which can be very overwhelming even for experienced players.
It fully sounds like each cars has a certain amount of uses until it breaks. This is great for this kind of game because e.g as the chef you are able to use ingredients a number of times, or wait to make a full dish and deal more damage or whatever, and that's super interesting
I want you guys to make the game that you want to make and the best game possible for you to make, I don't mind it not being a cardgame as long as it's a good game.
With this change now, does it still make sense to limit the market to 3 cards for each player? Now that we no longer have decks, we can only get new cards to our hand from the market, and each turn only having three choices may or may not be enough. Thank you for the update! Love the change.
I missed your streams Andrey! That being said I would like to say that I cannot see how the game would reward players decisions early on in the game, I much more prefer to not be doomed by clunky hands early game, so thats a huge plus, but how will I show that I am a better player than the other guy based on my early decisions, how is that going to work, I just do not quite understand the early game I guess, best of luck with the rest of the project!
Card games suck, the item idea is a really elegant solve and I really love this idea. Btw, I don't know how Reynad went from looking really elegant and sharp to looking like a high school kid again. Bring back the haircut!
What if u started the game with 3 coins and had 3 different tiers of unit , one that cost 1 coin , one that cost 2 coins and one that cost 3 coins , then u have options on have u want to play , maybe one game its best to buy 3 1 cost or maybe just a 3 or one 2 and one 1 cost , may also be dependent on class and so on
Don't know how I feel about this change. I can imagine myself never wanting to play my good cards because I feel like I'm wasting their durability. I'm guessing it's too late for the coins, but I think the best solution would be to make coin cards say something along the lines of 'Play each coin card in your hand and gain a coin for each'. It minimizes the inputs to one without the confusion or having to add a button.
Interesting, very interesting. Sounds a bit more like a auto battler to some extent. In the sense that there's no decks or discard. At this point there's so many deck builders that any innovation or creativity is welcome.
Should just choose a direction and go with it. This change to feels like it was influenced by the fall of CCG popularity and rise of autobattlers trying to match what's trendy at the time.
It sounds like you guys played Hearthstone, played Dominion and Ascension (but only using physical cards), and then started making your game without doing more research about more games in this space. Hard to make targeting decisions? Look at Star Realms: damage effects put damage into a pool, damage from that pool can be used to target cards in play, and unused damage can be applied to your opponent. Shards of Infinity makes this even smoother by draining left over damage against your opponent at the end of the turn automatically, eliminating a manual step. Hard to play 5 coins per turn? That sounds like a UX issue with your client, not an issue with your game. I have no problem double clicking 5 coins in Star Realms Digital or flicking them onto the board in the Ascension app. As for a "Play All" button, you can have it simply stop working and display an error when there are effects that target cards in your hand (see Star Realms). Having no discard pile and cards that are bought go directly into your deck? That is how War of Omens works. Now, the decision that you came up with (limited use cards in a hand building game) does sound interesting and I am curious to try it when it comes out, but it sounds like you did not try to learn from the mistakes of others and might repeat them.
1) "The main issue was the usage of coins, it included too many inputs." No offense guys, but have you ever played a deck building game with your friends IRL? Generally speaking, you don't play your gold, to make things faster you simply discard them with the card you are buying. Simply pick the card you want to buy and put it in the discard pile along with the gold pieces. That's just ONE input, click the card you want to buy. The game can automatically "discards" the coins required to buy them as well. 2) "This is a deck building game without a deck" Then it's not a deck building game. It's a card game with pre-built decks (depending on the class you choose) with a discover-like draw mechanic. I'm not sold. Games like those usually have very superficial depth. People are very good at min-maxing these kind of things. They will discover the best strategy for each match up in matter of days, and then it will became very repetitive or will depend too much on luck. Balance will force you to root out hate-bears and edge-cases pocket-picks, leading to very obvious strategy builds.
Once they started talking about referring to the cards as items and removing the decks, I couldn't help but smile. This sounds like a much cooler and more interesting game now. It doesn't seem like a traditional deckbuilder at all, and it looks like innovation is the name of the game here. Very excited for future updates!
Nothing spécial this is just the application of the normal definition of a deckbuilding game. Which is a card game where you build your deck DURING the game, not before starting the game. Magic, Pokemon, YuGiOh, HearthStone and all those who followed HS are NOT deck duilding game, have never been. There are collectible card games and the digital colectible card games.
@@saiksaikatai594 isn't the Arena mode in hearthstone technically deckbuilding
@@saiksaikatai594 even then, in most if not all deckbuilding games out there you start with a basic pool of cards as your starting deck and you build into that, enhancing or removing them later down the line. This is the first example of a deckbuilding game I've ever seen where there is no starting deck whatsoever.
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So it is a 'hand building game'. Honestly, sounds very different and awesome. I like how you guys are taking advantage of what a computer can do, compared to what paper cards can do. Looking forward to it!
Honestly, I love the changes. The game sounds super interesting now with lots of interactivity available. Much more excited than I was before, and I was already very much looking forward to it I should add haha
Ben did a fantastic job breaking down the design iterations! Really looking forward to more updates.
Really looking forward to this game!
If it ever comes out and doesn't "die" because of a small player base.
I hope it does well though, seems it is being made with a lot of passion by Reynad
Hey, if you say that in the item/durability system you are still getting the strengths of a deck building game, i.e. same strategy elements and feeling out of the game then all the power to you. It sounds like a great change! And I anticipate seeing those strategy elements.
I don't know who "Ben" is, but it's cool that you got Steve Harrington to join your team. He did a great job explaining things.
xD
At about 7 minutes into the video I was a bit worried this was going to become an auto battler, not that I don’t like auto battlers but I was excited for the originality The Bazaar was going to bring to the table. I must say I’m extremely impressed and excited by the “Item” and durability idea I think this is a unique idea not only for “deck builders” but for perhaps tabletop games as a whole. I feel like this will bring about a whole new genre of game or at the very least inspire one. Really well done Reynad can’t wait to see what you and your team come up with next!
Welp it's an autobattler now...
Love the fact that you are willing to make major changes in order for your game to be the best that it could be! I have tons of respect for that kind of mindset and can’t wait for what comes next!
I like this WAY more. Building a control like deck where you break your opponents stuff sounds awesome. And yes, I am a disgusting blue-white player
I am in love with the idea and change. You are right, there isn't a reason to keep using decks in a traditional sense when the medium of technology lets you do so much more than physical decks can.
The biggest problem I had with the game was unnecessarily sticking to outdated systems that only existed because of physical limitations. Definitely more excited for the game with these changes. Feels like it's getting closer to being the next evolution of deck builders in the digital space.
super cool idea with the digital desk thing. only thing I would change for the next video is lock the desk in place so it's not shaky.
Fantastic decision! I actually came across a similar problem when designing a concept for my own strategy game. Even though i started off with the idea "what if i mix card games with x genre?", eventually i just phased out all the things that made it a card game and ended up with just a strategy game that had certain similarities to card games, like a large pool of possible options, resource interaction, fundamental strategies and limitations to what can be played at any given moment. I'm glad to see that my decision can be seen in other works of a similar genre, maybe i was right after all!
Noodle looking like a 30 year old playing a high school kid in a movie. 😂 Game's looking great though!
This video feels like there was more planning and editing involved. To me it was a much more pleasant to watch. Especially the table was a really good idea.
The director appreciates this.
Biggest change in this system for me it's that it doesn't feel super bad when you get screwed by shop pile rng. Traditionaly speaking, there are situations, when after you bought a mediocre card a super strong would pop out in shop and you give it for free to the opponnent. And throught the whole game he would be using it against you and just rub salt in to the wound. Looking forward to Bazaar even more now.
One of the things this removes sadly is the need to "clean up" you deck at some point. This is one of my favourite interactions in for example dominion, where you want to get rid of starting cards in your deck at some point. Do you have an idea to integrate a similar mechanic in your game? Is there any need to clear your hand off items for example?
Love the new video style and the update with multiple people, keep it up. Ben is great at explaining. Hyped for the game!
So it's more of a tableau building game like Machi Koro or Valeria: Card Kingdom? I don't understand why you had such an issue with the number of inputs with a traditional deckbuilder. If something in the pool costs 4, you just click it to buy and 4 coins are removed from you hand. One input. Did you not try an auto-pay system? There's probably no going back now, but this seems like a silly problem to have and then completely change your design around. Hopefully it all works out in the end though!
They were thinking like Game designers and not UI designers so they didn't come up with solutions for "too much inputs" with their limited perspectives
They could combine and making playing 4 coins as 1 input like this: Click and hold the mouse button to implicitly enter multi-select mode, then just drag your mouse over multiple cards to gather and form a pile. You can drag the pile all up on once to play them all at once in one fluid motion (You can see this in Legends of Runeterra for example)
I really enjoy the choice to move away from the coins. I also love the idea of having durability for cards (items?), I can immediately think of scenarios where this would be interesting for card creation. Now you can have cards that suit a lot of different play styles and that will create enjoyable game play for all. Now there may be glass cannon cards with high dmg but low durability (like a leeroy jenkins type deal, except instead of health, durability), there are defensive options where you can have items that will increase the durability of your current cards, so defensive cards can become even more defensive, you can now have cards that do certain effects to cards that have more/less durability than a certain margin or even collectively count the amount of durability your opponent has in order to gain some effect. The possibilities keep coming but this was one of those updates that I can see a huge amount of potential coming to the game. Good job!
As a fan who's been excited for Bazaar since its announcement, I am in no particular way tied to the idea of a deckbuilding game and think this direction is very interesting and makes a lot of sense. Really loving the higher production quality on the update videos! Great work.
I really appreciate this explanations, setup and the editing. Keep going in this direction! For game change, like it. Match more on the bazaar theme and open up ( I think ) space for micro-transactions, with unique/rare/powerful items players can have at start and use
I think there is some complexity of deck builders that is lost by this change but overall I think it'll lead to new and unique experiences that aren't otherwise found in deck builders. I love the openness about the direction you are taking the game, and am looking forward to whats to come in the future.
What I think is most important in this kind of game is that there is creative strategies and meaningful choices every game - which appears to still be possible.
I was a bit sceptical about the removal of 'cards' and the 'deck' at first, but after watching this update I've been put at ease. I think the changes to the game that you describe are intuitive and still maintain the feeling of building up a deck of cards, without needing to be specifically restricted to the mechanics of what decks and cards entail. I think the fact that cards are now 'items' also fits really well with the flavour of being at an inter-dimensional market place. I imagine the 'combat' feels more like some exaggerated bartering battle to get the best items and deals that you can and become the best shopper possible. I personally hope that the items that you buy, rather than being some kind of 3D model object that sits in your 'deck space' with a tooltip, is still represented as some kind of card, as I feel like the 2D art assets are more charming, and a card is a more natural or elegant way to organise your objects and explain what they do clearly. Overall I'm excited with the change. It strikes me at this stage as being a nice midpoint between Hearthstone and Hearthstone Battlegrounds, where you feel like you are playing with a deck (as opposed to a war band), but have the complexity of having to pick between things to buy and use repeatedly. I think durability is a great way to balance your items, but that there should still be some kind of item cap (maybe 10) to incentivise you to use the durability of your items up.
Thank you for the feedback! How do you feel about 'tiles' with 2D art?
@@reynad27 I think maybe tiles with the art sort of like the condensed minions in hearthstone is a good way to have them sit in the zone, also makes it easier to fit a few more in there. I personally would still like it if when you hover over them to see an effect it would have a 'card' that would show its effect/durability and any other pertinent features in the one spot.
In this regard I mainly see cards as a flavour option that you won't actually be using to play the game, but just because it's an efficient way to condense a series of information. It also would be an efficient way of organising some kind of browsable collection in the main menu.
I think as far as outside of the actual game too, having card designs means that they can be sold as physical souvenirs/ special merchandise if its deemed economical to do so, but some additional food for thought anyway.
It will be interesting to see how this affects balance. A core aspect of traditional card games is not knowing what cards you'll be able to play since you draw random cards. With the randomization being shifted to the shops, it will still have that element, but also a lot more strategy and control involved. Super hyped to see what kind of game this becomes! I just hope we don't have to do tons of hand-tracking stuff and analyzing opponents' hands to predict their moves. That would put insane strain on the brain. Kind of like having the Frozen Eye relic in Slay the Spire, which allows you to see your entire deck in order - you're strategically incentivised to basically plan out the entire game each turn and it really slows things down and makes the game stressful.
Thanks for the feedback! I agree that we should avoid that. I think that in our game, it's more like seeing your opponent's board of creatures, rather than hand tracking. The other updates this month will go over everything more in-depth
I'm happy with the change and can tell you've done it for a better game. Looking forward to more innovations and fun. Glad I backed this game.
Literally had no idea this was here, was wondering why there weren't any updates on the channel. As for the change, I think it's an interesting one and still is a "deck builder" especially if you are able to interact with the upcoming cards to purchase. The deck is smaller than we're used to, but that will likely increase the speed of games (while, hopefully, not reducing potential complexity).
Deck Building game without a deck! Very creative and clever though, nice job guys. I can't wait to see where it goes.
This sounds so cool. I can already see cards being made that reduce the durability of opposing cards and so on
That was a great solution I was thinking durability would solve the problem before you mention it and that way you can make slight power difference in cards making stronger cards cost less durability good job guys.
What I was most bought into is something I still hope to see in the game, and it's still something that can work but would take significant changes I think, was certain classes building towards certain recipes and super cards by picking other things earlier. So like the chef starts by grabbing ingredients and then has a list of different combinations that are available to him so he can see what he wants to build to or maybe he just wants to cash them in now. Things like the mage getting more likely to be offered certain spells in the future if he took something in the past, the explorer/archaeologist discovering fossils that become dinosaurs fighting on their side. Some kind of building for a plan and having different possible outcomes available to you.
I'm a early backer and I think the changes sound interesting and fun, I like it.
Thanks!
I've ended up with a bit of a similar design in a physical card game I've been designing, for different reasons. I realized that part of the idea of having a pre-constructed deck in collectible card games is to add variance to the game, since the player can have full choice on what cards they want to play with, and there might thus not be any randomness there. But a deck-building game includes the discovery process for cards, which is already random. So I figured that the deck's added randomness might not be needed and I removed it. So it is currently more of a hand-building game.
The durability counters seem like a nice solution. In a physical game they initially sound too clunky, so I might go with a limited hand size instead. Then the player will be forced to get rid of their worse cards to make room for better ones.
This makes me even more excited then I already was
The item concept sounds cool, and more importantly, versatile. If you think of artifacts in MTG, they're easily the most versatile card. They can have a constant affect like an aura, be used as monsters, or be activated like spells. Also kind of reminds me of Munchkin, where really all your good stuff is item cards.
It's definitely leaning more towards a TFT style game than a deck builder, which makes sense considering many people agree that TFT has the same game loop as a deck builder. I really like where it's going, because it still has such a unique identity that it won't get overshadowed by a similar game, but it still fits into the TFT genre for entertainment.
As not only an aspiring developer, but also a fan of card games, this was a really cool process video to watch. I think a lot can be learned from the stepping back and reanalyzing you guys had to do, and getting to the realization of what game you're really making and how to get there. Can't wait for more updates
Seems like a really cool system, and can't wait to see where it goes
I love it when an old formula gets reworked or flipped on its head. This change sounds super interesting.
Your hand is your shop in the ba5aar, and you sell your wares. I like it
Amazing presentation. While it’s great to see you talking candidly at your streaming chair, this type of production feels great. And as for the game choices, I’m happy! Honestly, I just want to see you succeed and be a part of it since I have known you from streaming for a lot of years.
I don't really know much about card games, however just because of how attractive this Ben guy is explaining the game I'm compelled to give it a shot.
It's been fun to watch this process! Thank you for sharing it with us all. I could never come up with the ideas you guys have, so I love seeing the evolution of the game and knowing that the product we are getting is the best iteration it can be. Keep up the good work!
Been playing Hearthstone Battlegrounds instead of regular Hearthstone since the beginning of 2020. Love this idea.
This 4 year old video really intrigued me to try out the game.
I feel there was an intuitive way for this to work with the old system, just double click a card to play all cards of the same type in hand (double clicking coins plays all coins). However, I prefer what you guys did a lot more, looks like a much better system for digital. And you can balance cards around with durability costs.
Sounds very interesting and intuitive, very excited for future updates
Wow, what an awesome video and fantastic insight into the game development process. I wish more developers took the time to explain things like this. I look forward to playing!
Does it mean that we will know what the oppo had in their hands all the time ? Wouldn't it be too rely on the rng on the shop on ur side ?
Well ... just popping out my ideas . Fully support! Gd forehead!
Yes, you do see the opponent's items. I don't know how we would reintroduce hidden information, but we don't want to anyway. Probabilistic risk analysis is overrated. Hidden information rewards memorization, paying attention, and game knowledge. We don't want players to focus on those things. External tools shouldn't feel mandatory, and streamers shouldn't be at a disadvantage. The way that players buy items hasn't changed, except they go onto their board rather than in a deck. There isn't more RNG than before.
Gotta say it felt pretty bad watching this up the middle point. I knew you were going to pitch us that the deck part was going to be removed.
Seeing what you replaced it with tho, makes me really excited! That looks so fun! Also I think "items" gives the game a more "bazar" feel to it. Theming is very important to me and I think this change is an improvement to that.
Bold idea to eliminate the concept of the traditional deck entirely, and the way it's presented at the end is super exciting. To have an economy based on item usage with durability, ways to buff them, etc. Even powerful swing cards perhaps removing an item, or at least MTG-like exiling the item while that card is in play. Still have my lanyard - so excited for the game!
Really smart solution actually, i like it! Just make sure to maintain the ”card feel” to it
Ah, nothing like a great game design chat :)
Love this concept, glad to see innovative design and gameplay with a focus on simplicity. I eagerly await early access!
There might be a problem with this. Lets compare this to a card game like Hearthstone. The board is where your hand used to be. Thats where you place cards that you can control and your opponent can target. Your hand is where the board used to be. Thats where the cards which are available to play can be found. Now where has the deck gone? It is replaced with all the cards from your class. Now imagine Hearthstone but instead of a deck you play with all of your class cards. Deckbuilding games solve this by making your card choices permanent, but here the cards are gone after a certain number of uses. This also takes away a lot of design space in terms of synergies and combos because all of theese are limited to short-term. I would add a game mechanic that lets you bring back used items. Maybe a part of the shop only displays cards that you already purchased that game. This would make the game more strategic and synergies more viable.
Wew this is a big change to the design of the game... I'm not a big fan of the change but I can see why you did it.
First I want to point out why I am not a big fan of this change and then suggest a way of fixing the problem you guys talked about (unnecessary inputs by dragging every coin)
The first disadvantages that came to my mind are:
- extremly simplified "deckbuilding":
why?
In a normal deckbuilding game like for example dominion one key part is managing your decksize by removing useless cards of your deck over time and getting stronger/better ones that either synergize with each other or straight up give you more economy.
A deckbuilding game is not just about "which out of these cards fits best into my deck" it is also about "does this card still improve the average powerlevel of my deck or does it have good synergy with enough cards in my deck to justify taking it" - if the answer is no you wait for better cards or (if the cards have multiple options like either +2 coins or +1 attack) use your economy-card for an attack instead.
In addition in traditional deckbuilding games you need to make sure that the cards you add to your deck will have a purpose 10+ rounds from now on.
- losing the "I own this card now"-feeling
The problem with adding durability to cards is that you feel bad playing your card. This might not be the case for experienced/competitive players but I believe this has to feel bad for players new to the game (like it feels terrible if your Item breaks in Diablo 1 and you actually lose it - There is a reason why in newer games the item no longer disappears after breaking)
After you play your item a few times you will lose it and if you like the item you probably dont want to lose it and therefor just dont play it instead.
- no "if your deck has no/any cards of X you gain Y"-effects or choose a card from your deck, draw it or similiar effects
Examples for this would be hearthstones (I know not a deckbuilding game - doesnt mean that it is not relevant tho) "If your deck only consists of equal costing cards" or dominions "at the end of the game you gain 1 point for every 5 cards in your deck" (which rewards a risky playstyle of buying multiple "not so great" cards instead of single strong ones to your deck)
The way I would have solved this problem would be by having your coins and attack-cards on your hand (just like originally planned) but instead of playing them out one by one you would just click the card you want to buy and by hovering over the shop-card it highlights the cards in your hand it would play in order to get that card.
For example you have the following hand:
- coin (gain 1 gold this turn when used)
- coin
- cursed coin (gain 1 gold this turn, deal 1 damage to yourself)
- coin
- coin
and the market has the following items/cards:
- frostbolt (cost 4 gold - shins green)
- firebolt (cost 5 gold - shins green)
- blizzard (cost 6 gold - shins red)
by hovering over the frostbolt all of your standard coins would highlight (for example a glowing-border effect) and when clicking on the frostbolt all of your coins would be played (so hand item 1, 2, 4, 5 with a super fast animation) and the frostbolt goes into your discard pile.
by hovering over the firebolt all of your 5 handcards are highlighted and when clicking on it you play all of them (so you deal 1 damage to yourself, get 5 gold and then lose those 5 gold to aquire the firebolt)
by hovering over the blizzard nothing happens and clicking on it just highlights the already red marked cost of 6 (because you only have up to 5 gold)
Sometimes there will be situations where the order of the cards played matters (or which cards are played) in those cases the player can synergize with the simple mechanism by playing the cards out of his hand first one by one (or as many as he would like) - when playing out economy cards your gold for this round will increase and shown on the ui.
This stuff can also be used for weapons. If you hover over an enemy your cards with attack that will be used will be highlighted or alternativly you drag and drop your attack-cards from your hand onto the enemy.
In the end I want to say that this does not sound like a deckbuilding game at all
This sounds way more like a rpg-game on which you control a character that has up to X amount of items. By using an item (for example its sword) you damage an enemy but it loses durability. You can buy new items from the shop and then use those items. For me this does sound like a completly different game. It sounds simpler/different. You said you wanted to make the best game you could which makes sense but these two games are so different it is like creating dota instead of warcraft 3. Sure you still have heroes in both of them and you could argue dota is also a bit of a real time strategy game but they play waay different. I was excited to build up my empire during the game and fill my deck with some overpowered combos and not building up an overpowered combo in my hand that I can use one or two times before atleast one of those break.
I hope I was able to get my point of view across properly.
Whatever your decision is I'm gonna try it out - The difference might be that I play this for 10 hours and not the 1000 hours that I previously expected.
Anyways I wish you good luck with the game noodl
your proposal is kinda like how wotc handles mtga's auto tapping lands, which is where i was thinking a working solution for dominion style coin card interaction could be
Your point about “feeling bad” about using your favorite card and having it run out of durability is interesting but I don’t think it necessarily is a problem if you really think about how card games work. My favorite card in Hearthstone is Tirion. Wanna know how often Tirion actually gets to do things after I play him? Basically never because the opponent has hard removal or silence or transform effects. I still love having him in a deck and playing him though. Usually your cards in a card game get only brief use, the excitement is when you can use them to maximum effectiveness and durability does not interfere with that possibility
@@Bryan-nw3gh I agree with his point about "feeling bad" and I don't think Tirion is that apt of an example. In a game like Hearthstone you don't expect your cards to have more than just it's one use and the only disincentive to play them is your opponent having an answer to it. You're actually incentivized to play your cards because if you don't you're wasting tempo. I'm going to use the game Slay the Spire as an example. My favorite card in it is one called "All for One" which draws all your 0-cost cards from your discard pile. I LOVE this card because the type of deck it goes well with is one that goes through the deck quickly and likes replaying the cards you have in the deck as many times as you can. It would suck if the card only had 3 uses and broke. "All for One" is a rare strong card that actually props the entire archetype and seeing the linchpin for your deck lose durability and eventually break, leaving you with only 0 cost cards, would feel bad. That said, I don't think the durability system is a bad change. The game loses a big part of the deck building feeling but in it's place you would have the complexity of making the decision of saving the uses of your cards or using them immediately. I think if you go in the game without the expectations of it being a deck builder, you wouldn't feel any disappointment.
Thank you for the great feedback. I agree with a lot of what you're saying, and it's a lot like the thought process we went through ourselves. This first update only covered our reasoning for removing decks as the zone where cards go. The next big update, which we've already recorded, will go over our solutions for durability-related problems. A pure deckbuilding game has a lot of issues with a lack of design space, because most cards are restricted to 1 timing that you can play them. If cards are permanents rather than 'spells' like they are in Dominion, you open up the design space a ton. That's another big reason we wanted to move away from decks- too many inputs was just one of several problems. Last year we discussed the input solution you proposed, but it became messy once cards had 2 effects- one of which was generating money
I wanted to say this but couldn't find a good way too. I think you hit the nail on the head. I wish I could thumbs this up more.
Slay the spire managed it fine, with the mana restriction. Only 3 dragged inputs to start with.
Slowly but surely turning into what Artifact could’ve been
Artifact was a meme
Damn. Now it can explode! keep goin guyz!
This sounds INFINITELY more interesting than a standard deck builder.
Isn't it just a Draft Deck Builder? The core game concept sounds like you don't have the ability to define your playstyle, rather you have to adapt to what the RNG gods offer you. I feel like this isn't the best idea unless the "heroes" offer a way to augment card options.
One thing I would of suggest is that rather than remove the DeckBuilding aspect, you create a 2 deck system of 20 cards, 20 cards are the resources you buy with the durability and the other 20 cards are your own deck you can draw from at a certain cost, say 1 gold per draw up to 5 draws per turn accumulative. So if you want to draw 5 from your deck you would have to pay 15 gold.
Basically the other 2 20 card decks would be shuffled together to form the resources you buy, meaning it's combination of what you are your opponent are strategizing with the whole gimmick being you have the ability to buy out their resources to undermine their strategy and vice versa, or you could be tricked into thinking they have X strategy but it's a dead card they are tempting you to buy.
Haven't been following the game since whenever it was announced, but card durability is super interesting. Seems like it could also appear really easily through the visuals, ie a "wooden" item/card vs a "metal" or a "magical" material that changes when targeted (ie "traps" in Hearthstone). I truthfully wasn't super interested in deckbuilding archetype, whatever's going on now seems pretty intriguing.
i love this idea. i was already excited to see the final product but this change is huge and definitely has me pumped to see more!
i'm excited to try it. when is the expected release date?
Why do I already feel nostalgic?
IDK WHAT A DECK BUILDER IS BUT THE MECHANIC SOUNDS LIKE ARENA FROM HEARTHSTONE, DRAFT FROM MTGA AND SLAY THE SPIRE WHEN YOU ARE PICKING CARDS MID GAME SO IM IN
Sounds pretty interesting, not gonna lie :)
The thing I care about most is that the best version of the game is going to be the one that releases. I trust the team to make a great game regardless of what the game looks like at the end of the development.
ngl, this starts to feel more and more like Prismata with every new update, lol. I do like how they fixed the issue with infinitely scaling boards, which can be very overwhelming even for experienced players.
It fully sounds like each cars has a certain amount of uses until it breaks. This is great for this kind of game because e.g as the chef you are able to use ingredients a number of times, or wait to make a full dish and deal more damage or whatever, and that's super interesting
Of course they will go with this, auto battler is popular right now
We all miss Ben Brode so you got another Ben.
He will carry the torch! :)
I want you guys to make the game that you want to make and the best game possible for you to make, I don't mind it not being a cardgame as long as it's a good game.
I like the idea, but when you buy a card do you only play it once or does it shuffle somewhere?
No shuffling, it just goes straight from the store to sitting in play. It stays in play until it breaks
Ah, it's now more of a Tableau Builder. :)
This sounds great. Man I wished I backed this game
sooo, if there's no extra gold and now you get automated income, what role do monsters fill now??
With this change now, does it still make sense to limit the market to 3 cards for each player? Now that we no longer have decks, we can only get new cards to our hand from the market, and each turn only having three choices may or may not be enough. Thank you for the update! Love the change.
3 is the median number of cards in the store to avoid choice paralysis, but there are items that make more store options available
I missed your streams Andrey! That being said I would like to say that I cannot see how the game would reward players decisions early on in the game, I much more prefer to not be doomed by clunky hands early game, so thats a huge plus, but how will I show that I am a better player than the other guy based on my early decisions, how is that going to work, I just do not quite understand the early game I guess, best of luck with the rest of the project!
Is the guy from 04:00 related in any way to Ryan the Leader?
They have the same facial features, mannerisms, speech patterns and so on..
Did you forget to link the homepage or did you leave it out on purpose? Btw the new Logo looks great!
Sounds a little like prismata with classes and rng and less focus on economy. Seems like this has good potential for design.
This seems absolutely genius.
Card games suck, the item idea is a really elegant solve and I really love this idea. Btw, I don't know how Reynad went from looking really elegant and sharp to looking like a high school kid again. Bring back the haircut!
What if u started the game with 3 coins and had 3 different tiers of unit , one that cost 1 coin , one that cost 2 coins and one that cost 3 coins , then u have options on have u want to play , maybe one game its best to buy 3 1 cost or maybe just a 3 or one 2 and one 1 cost , may also be dependent on class and so on
So excited!
Fucking great video
Don't know how I feel about this change. I can imagine myself never wanting to play my good cards because I feel like I'm wasting their durability.
I'm guessing it's too late for the coins, but I think the best solution would be to make coin cards say something along the lines of 'Play each coin card in your hand and gain a coin for each'. It minimizes the inputs to one without the confusion or having to add a button.
This is a valid concern and we address it in an upcoming video.
Really hope This game Does great reynad!
Interesting, very interesting. Sounds a bit more like a auto battler to some extent. In the sense that there's no decks or discard. At this point there's so many deck builders that any innovation or creativity is welcome.
Will this come to mobiles?
I feel like I can tell that they are taking a lot of inspiration from hearthstone battlegrounds. Making all the cards cost the same. No deck.
i love it, great innovation
I am pumped
Only the noodle can make a DECK builder with no decks
Should just choose a direction and go with it. This change to feels like it was influenced by the fall of CCG popularity and rise of autobattlers trying to match what's trendy at the time.
I'd argue that we made this change because it's just better game design. Autobattlers also grew in popularity because they're better game design.
the art is too notch!!
It sounds like you guys played Hearthstone, played Dominion and Ascension (but only using physical cards), and then started making your game without doing more research about more games in this space.
Hard to make targeting decisions? Look at Star Realms: damage effects put damage into a pool, damage from that pool can be used to target cards in play, and unused damage can be applied to your opponent. Shards of Infinity makes this even smoother by draining left over damage against your opponent at the end of the turn automatically, eliminating a manual step.
Hard to play 5 coins per turn? That sounds like a UX issue with your client, not an issue with your game. I have no problem double clicking 5 coins in Star Realms Digital or flicking them onto the board in the Ascension app. As for a "Play All" button, you can have it simply stop working and display an error when there are effects that target cards in your hand (see Star Realms).
Having no discard pile and cards that are bought go directly into your deck? That is how War of Omens works.
Now, the decision that you came up with (limited use cards in a hand building game) does sound interesting and I am curious to try it when it comes out, but it sounds like you did not try to learn from the mistakes of others and might repeat them.
1) "The main issue was the usage of coins, it included too many inputs."
No offense guys, but have you ever played a deck building game with your friends IRL?
Generally speaking, you don't play your gold, to make things faster you simply discard them with the card you are buying.
Simply pick the card you want to buy and put it in the discard pile along with the gold pieces.
That's just ONE input, click the card you want to buy. The game can automatically "discards" the coins required to buy them as well.
2) "This is a deck building game without a deck"
Then it's not a deck building game. It's a card game with pre-built decks (depending on the class you choose) with a discover-like draw mechanic.
I'm not sold. Games like those usually have very superficial depth. People are very good at min-maxing these kind of things.
They will discover the best strategy for each match up in matter of days, and then it will became very repetitive or will depend too much on luck.
Balance will force you to root out hate-bears and edge-cases pocket-picks, leading to very obvious strategy builds.
The prophet has spoken lol
dang. was looking forward to a digital deck building game. Still looking forward to this game but a little disappointed :/
What a bout a slay the spire system where you have 3 gold/mana each turn
Cool, when did Athene start working on the project?