Sorry to hear that this didn't work for you Jelle. We all make mistakes in Bonsai! Thank you for sharing this one so we can all learn! It is such an interesting idea of doing a makeshift air layer on a Pine 🌲🌲
If only we had X-ray vision to see what goes on under the soil!! Really appreciate the valuable information you got from this experiment - YES - you can root graft Scotts Pine - and due to the parent's slower growth, its a 4+ year enterprise. Bravo!!
What a shame. I hope it helps that your plan did really work & all is not lost. I took off an air layer too early yesterday, which had been on 3 months. Too long I thought, so took it off & it had just started to take…oh well we have to fail to learn to succeed! 😢 Yours was a very interesting experiment, thanks for sharing it 😊
Thats a very interesting technique I recently read about in a famous maple bonsai book. You can basically graft roots on a branch, separate it and next year regraft it on a more appropriate location on the same original tree (or just have a spare second tree as you just demonstrated!). Crazy what someone can achieve with some experimentation!
Hey mate great y.t channel tooby the way! With Japanese black pine it is possible to airlayer both young & older pines & ive been airlayering jbpine/red pine for several yrs now & do them every late spring or start of summer,once secondary buds have opened i start my airlayers using the ring bark method & with older pines (20-30yo) i sand back the old bark to were it is softer.After cutting my ring back to the hardwood i make pots that can fit around the layer then make up my own substrate of chopped sphagnum,grain size larva rock & crushed pine bark then i make up a paste with both rooting liquid & powder into a paste & apply a coat then spray the substrate with water then wrap with plastic wrap & thats it,Reason i dont use straight sphagnum is that it retains to much moisture if i leave the airlayer till following spring,with younger trees i usually have rooted airlayers within 4weeks of jbpine! Thank you once again Jelle & i hope this may help!!Cheerzz!!
Like all of us Jelle.... There is only so much patience to go around... No one has enough of it anymore. Like in that movie, Karate Kid. You must sit and meditate, and you need to practice catching flies with chopsticks. Alive. You can't squish them... If you haven't seen those movies. There is a Bonsai tree in them! Great video Jelle! You are human. And a normal one, that just happens to shovel manure in bare feet... Very neat technique, thanks for showing us! Sorry for your loss. Perhaps you can use it in another form. Grow a young whip around it. Place it on flat stone for display as deadwood. Or give it to a dog to chew on.
Bummer Jelle. I know exactly how you feel. I was loving the grafted tree's shape and look. Win some, lose some. Seems to me that you actually have a lot of patience. Bonsai cultivation has certainly taught me much about having patience. I'm getting better, but much room for improvement. lol. Rock on brother!
Oh Jelle, I groaned when I saw the pine had died, it's so upsetting when it happens. Some of my trees have died but I continue to water and new growth appears but I do think yours is definitely gone. So good luck with the twins. Keep growing.xx
Thank you for sharing your experience!!!! You are an honorable soul for sharing failures as well as successes. My best guess was the tree would not survive. I think the contact surface of the two seedlings was insufficient to support the tree. If you compare the contact surface of the two grafted trees to the entire root system it makes sense. I’m not sure waiting another year would have done the job either. The only way I could see this working would be to serially girdle the base to slowly ween the tree off the primary root system. This was a rare and extremely valuable lesson. We need more people thinking outside the box and sharing the boundaries of what can and can not be done with trees. I’m fascinated by grafting trees and graft trees for the sake of grafting every year since starting my growing interest. In order to master a skill one must be willing to find the boundaries and that includes crossing them from time to time. I keep one pine tree that I simply use to practice grafting on. It now serves as a source of genetic material. I have multiple genetic varieties of pine on this single tree. It has multiple varieties of cork bark JBP, Japanese white pine, PS ‘Beuvronensis’ to name a few. Now if I want scion material I have lots to choose from on a single tree and have had lots of grafting experience while obtains it. Some grafts make it and some don’t. Root grafting is my next frontier. To date I have not done any root grating but your video has inspired me to begin. Unlike scion grating root or approach grafting should be possible during different times of the year esp on conifers. My most sincere appreciation for sharing your experience. Keep up the good work especially projects like this which are out of the ordinary. Be well, Mats H
Nice try. I've been in-arch grafting 2 leggy mugo pines using a similar method. One failed badly. It's been over 2 years and I'm still not sure the remaining one has taken so I'm leaving it, especially after seeing your experience. Thanks for showing this and I think your remaining tree is going to make a very nice bonsai.
I appreciate you sharing your failure. I am new to bonsai and my first one that I felt was making progress with died this spring when I tried trimming roots. I think I rushed it and should have given it more time.
The literati is top notch but I do wonder just how much longer you would have to wait before risking seperation. Three years is a long time and I think I would have struggled to wait too. It must be so hard to know whether or not those two root systems from the youn pines were actually ever going to start feeding the older pine? Hats off to you for waiting 3 years jelle :)
I think in part it is because of the styling, it being an old tree and me not fertilizing enough. I might re-do the experiment on cheap material and push it a little more.
Impatience may have ruined a 3 year experiment… I knew that bonsai required patience but wow. Note to self, pines require extra patience. Thank you for sharing. I have taken up bonsai in the past year and part of the challenge to myself is patience.
think the 3. years you waited, says you were very patient. What I think I saw was, that the cuts for the seedlings were probably to deep. Isn't it the Cambium part of both trees you want fuse that need a lot of surface area? Still grafting involves a dose of luck The surviving tree still looks very beautiful though. 👍
Awesome, ive been waiting for someone to make a video on this quite risky and rare undertaking. Ive tried this on one of my pines a years ago, ill just say its quite a gamble…
Cool experiment! I'm wondering if it would have worked if you removed a thin line of bark on the inside of the seedlings. It would expose the cambium. The wound would firs seal with sap, then possibly create new veins. Late winter/early spring would probably be the best time to try this, so the wound gets filled with the first sap flow.
Patience. Ahh yes, I am sure I have that somewhere in my personality . . . About 6 months ago I took an airlayer on a black pine. (Sacrifice branch so nothing to loose) I couldn't resist and took a peek on the weekend and it has roots!! Now I have to work out if I have the patience to give it more time to strengthen further, or if I am keen to get started on the tree underneath. Or if I want to take another layer a bit lower and try for a thicker base . . . As in life; nothing ventured, nothing gained!
@@GrowingBonsai I am going to "split the difference" and wait a month or so. Still a bit cold here for repotting the conifers; I don't think I can leave it for a year, let alone 2!
How long did it take from separation for the top to show signs of decline? That's truly a shame, but that parent tree still looks fantastic. And honestly, I'm angry that your chosen front works so well, because I'd try my damnedest to keep that gorgeous curve on display. But there really is no angle that shows off that curve and keeps the upper truck visible or distinct, is there?
Hahahahaha, I have meanwhile rewired the tree and it looks even better! The decline showed in 4 weeks: Dulling of the needles. The full decline was maybe 3 months.
Four weeks, and three months till death? Would an ungrafted branch of one of these trees normally be able to survive that long completely separated from the parent?
@@bealight5141 Well the genus is "Pinus" which is just Latin for "pine". And the only people for whom this is an issue are we Anglophones with our attempts to assert it's pronounced "PIE-noose" because it makes some people blush.
Close to success!!
:) Close but not close enough!
Really thought that was going to work out... and maybe will another time...thanks for showing and talking through what you did..
Thanks for watching! Ah well.. Fortunately, I have another 200+ trees :)
Sorry to hear that this didn't work for you Jelle. We all make mistakes in Bonsai! Thank you for sharing this one so we can all learn! It is such an interesting idea of doing a makeshift air layer on a Pine 🌲🌲
❤
What an audacious plan! Very impressed !!
Just so sad it did not come together!
If only we had X-ray vision to see what goes on under the soil!! Really appreciate the valuable information you got from this experiment - YES - you can root graft Scotts Pine - and due to the parent's slower growth, its a 4+ year enterprise. Bravo!!
Glad it was helpful! I guess I will have to do another experiment!
What a shame. I hope it helps that your plan did really work & all is not lost. I took off an air layer too early yesterday, which had been on 3 months. Too long I thought, so took it off & it had just started to take…oh well we have to fail to learn to succeed! 😢 Yours was a very interesting experiment, thanks for sharing it 😊
Normally once there are roots, it wil take. How did it go in the end?
Thats a very interesting technique I recently read about in a famous maple bonsai book. You can basically graft roots on a branch, separate it and next year regraft it on a more appropriate location on the same original tree (or just have a spare second tree as you just demonstrated!). Crazy what someone can achieve with some experimentation!
Yes! I know that technique. Seen it applied with success. Great possibilities!
Hey mate great y.t channel tooby the way! With Japanese black pine it is possible to airlayer both young & older pines & ive been airlayering jbpine/red pine for several yrs now & do them every late spring or start of summer,once secondary buds have opened i start my airlayers using the ring bark method & with older pines (20-30yo) i sand back the old bark to were it is softer.After cutting my ring back to the hardwood i make pots that can fit around the layer then make up my own substrate of chopped sphagnum,grain size larva rock & crushed pine bark then i make up a paste with both rooting liquid & powder into a paste & apply a coat then spray the substrate with water then wrap with plastic wrap & thats it,Reason i dont use straight sphagnum is that it retains to much moisture if i leave the airlayer till following spring,with younger trees i usually have rooted airlayers within 4weeks of jbpine!
Thank you once again Jelle & i hope this may help!!Cheerzz!!
This is really great information. Do you happen to have videos on the process?
Like all of us Jelle.... There is only so much patience to go around... No one has enough of it anymore. Like in that movie, Karate Kid. You must sit and meditate, and you need to practice catching flies with chopsticks. Alive. You can't squish them... If you haven't seen those movies. There is a Bonsai tree in them! Great video Jelle! You are human. And a normal one, that just happens to shovel manure in bare feet... Very neat technique, thanks for showing us! Sorry for your loss. Perhaps you can use it in another form. Grow a young whip around it. Place it on flat stone for display as deadwood. Or give it to a dog to chew on.
:)
Geweldig. Heerlijke video ❤
Dank je!
Bummer Jelle. I know exactly how you feel. I was loving the grafted tree's shape and look. Win some, lose some. Seems to me that you actually have a lot of patience. Bonsai cultivation has certainly taught me much about having patience. I'm getting better, but much room for improvement. lol. Rock on brother!
:)
Oh Jelle, I groaned when I saw the pine had died, it's so upsetting when it happens. Some of my trees have died but I continue to water and new growth appears but I do think yours is definitely gone. So good luck with the twins. Keep growing.xx
Yeah, swims with the firewood that top!
Thank you for sharing your experience!!!!
You are an honorable soul for sharing failures as well as successes. My best guess was the tree would not survive. I think the contact surface of the two seedlings was insufficient to support the tree. If you compare the contact surface of the two grafted trees to the entire root system it makes sense. I’m not sure waiting another year would have done the job either. The only way I could see this working would be to serially girdle the base to slowly ween the tree off the primary root system. This was a rare and extremely valuable lesson. We need more people thinking outside the box and sharing the boundaries of what can and can not be done with trees. I’m fascinated by grafting trees and graft trees for the sake of grafting every year since starting my growing interest. In order to master a skill one must be willing to find the boundaries and that includes crossing them from time to time. I keep one pine tree that I simply use to practice grafting on. It now serves as a source of genetic material. I have multiple genetic varieties of pine on this single tree. It has multiple varieties of cork bark JBP, Japanese white pine, PS ‘Beuvronensis’ to name a few. Now if I want scion material I have lots to choose from on a single tree and have had lots of grafting experience while obtains it. Some grafts make it and some don’t. Root grafting is my next frontier. To date I have not done any root grating but your video has inspired me to begin. Unlike scion grating root or approach grafting should be possible during different times of the year esp on conifers.
My most sincere appreciation for sharing your experience. Keep up the good work especially projects like this which are out of the ordinary.
Be well,
Mats H
Thx Mats, all fair. I am not convinced, I think though that fertilizing more and letting the seedlings grow more in the last year could have helped.
Nice try. I've been in-arch grafting 2 leggy mugo pines using a similar method. One failed badly. It's been over 2 years and I'm still not sure the remaining one has taken so I'm leaving it, especially after seeing your experience. Thanks for showing this and I think your remaining tree is going to make a very nice bonsai.
Thank you. The main tree will be OK, indeed. But it would have been nice to have the other one too.
Very nice
Thank you!
I appreciate you sharing your failure. I am new to bonsai and my first one that I felt was making progress with died this spring when I tried trimming roots. I think I rushed it and should have given it more time.
The literati is top notch but I do wonder just how much longer you would have to wait before risking seperation. Three years is a long time and I think I would have struggled to wait too. It must be so hard to know whether or not those two root systems from the youn pines were actually ever going to start feeding the older pine? Hats off to you for waiting 3 years jelle :)
I think in part it is because of the styling, it being an old tree and me not fertilizing enough. I might re-do the experiment on cheap material and push it a little more.
@@GrowingBonsai sound slike a good plan to me :)
Impatience may have ruined a 3 year experiment… I knew that bonsai required patience but wow. Note to self, pines require extra patience. Thank you for sharing. I have taken up bonsai in the past year and part of the challenge to myself is patience.
Absolutely. But in this case I really thought I had been patient. Next time I will fertilize the seedlings more.
think the 3. years you waited, says you were very patient.
What I think I saw was, that the cuts for the seedlings were probably to deep.
Isn't it the Cambium part of both trees you want fuse that need a lot of surface area?
Still grafting involves a dose of luck
The surviving tree still looks very beautiful though. 👍
The bark on the mature plant is very thick..
Awesome, ive been waiting for someone to make a video on this quite risky and rare undertaking.
Ive tried this on one of my pines a years ago, ill just say its quite a gamble…
:) Did not work for you you mean? It is odd though, that no succesfull videos are around!?
Cool experiment! I'm wondering if it would have worked if you removed a thin line of bark on the inside of the seedlings. It would expose the cambium. The wound would firs seal with sap, then possibly create new veins. Late winter/early spring would probably be the best time to try this, so the wound gets filled with the first sap flow.
That's a great idea! In fact, that is how I did it :)
Patience. Ahh yes, I am sure I have that somewhere in my personality . . .
About 6 months ago I took an airlayer on a black pine. (Sacrifice branch so nothing to loose) I couldn't resist and took a peek on the weekend and it has roots!! Now I have to work out if I have the patience to give it more time to strengthen further, or if I am keen to get started on the tree underneath. Or if I want to take another layer a bit lower and try for a thicker base . . . As in life; nothing ventured, nothing gained!
:) I was immediately.. Yeah, pot it up. But.. Maybe that is not sound advice!
@@GrowingBonsai I am going to "split the difference" and wait a month or so. Still a bit cold here for repotting the conifers; I don't think I can leave it for a year, let alone 2!
👍👌🙂
❤
I wonder if a very deep groove or actually a tunnel would have worked.
Yeah several options available. Here I think it was a combo of hot weather and not very well development of connections, and in summary, not waiting.
How long did it take from separation for the top to show signs of decline? That's truly a shame, but that parent tree still looks fantastic.
And honestly, I'm angry that your chosen front works so well, because I'd try my damnedest to keep that gorgeous curve on display. But there really is no angle that shows off that curve and keeps the upper truck visible or distinct, is there?
Hahahahaha, I have meanwhile rewired the tree and it looks even better! The decline showed in 4 weeks: Dulling of the needles. The full decline was maybe 3 months.
Four weeks, and three months till death? Would an ungrafted branch of one of these trees normally be able to survive that long completely separated from the parent?
Oh Jelle, wie schade, dass es nicht geklappt hat. Ich hatte es so gehofft.
Ja, nerft!
As Peter Chan would probably say: Even a monkey falls from a tree sometimes🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️😊
Thats so sweet! Thank you
Bonjour. Une marcotte aérienne aurait peut être eu plus de chance de réussite? Sincères condoléances...
Perhaps!
Sorry it didn’t work Jelle 👍👍
Never stop trying!
peenus what?
Translates to "Sylvester's pinus," I think
@@abydosianchulac2 lol thanks 🤣😅
@@abydosianchulac2 who is the madlad that named it, i need to know
@@bealight5141 Well the genus is "Pinus" which is just Latin for "pine". And the only people for whom this is an issue are we Anglophones with our attempts to assert it's pronounced "PIE-noose" because it makes some people blush.
How WOULD you pronounce it, considering all the confusing messages?