Three Houses really needed the Turnwheel. The recruitment is so front loaded, that you can't really replace fallen units and you kinda need to use the turn wheel if somebody dies. I recently replayed Shadow Dragon and I really enjoyed the mid map save points, they give you basically a second or third chance on a map, but only one time and only in a specific place. I think its the best compromise if the game is build around it
@@g.n.s.153 I agree completely, but most first time Players wont do an ironman and I think if you dont know whats coming you kinda need the turnwheel in 3h
"How turning FE into DMC can solve the turnwheel problem" Rutger:TRI-RO-SWO-RO-SWO-TRI... Every single enemy in elibe:confused(and extremely afraid) screaming
A differentiation I think you could make, instead of only being Gold, maybe the reward for getting a good ranking could differ based on the map as a way of making the reward feel more diagetic. A map where you have to escape, or defend against an opposing army, or otherwise in a situation where it would be strange to receive a copious amount of gold at the end, you could recieve a piece of equipment, or maybe even bring back the BEXP mechanic from the Tellius games. Hell, if anything, if we want this mechanic to be truly diagetic, maybe make the turnwheel a semi-character, like Lilith or especially Sommie with his bond crystals. You can exchange that fake currency for strong benefits or items, and while everyone would get this resource, you get more if you please them, which could include skilled tactics, and especially not forcing them to rewind time for you 5 times in a row.
I like this. You could probably make this objective specific. Route earns additional gold, Defend earns weapons, seize rewards B.Exp, Survive earns stat boosters, so on so forth.
@@A_Person_64 and Dante and Vergil were in Project X Zone 1 and 2, which are also SRPGs (or maybe it was just Dante in both and Vergil was only in the 2nd one)
I like the idea of that ranking thing, but maybe it should be taken a step further, like having the reward be a special currency a la Unicorn Overlord's arena that buys strong items in a special shop.
As someone who was in the GC this idea was inspired from (and gave the gold idea) this was fun to see expanded on. My brain also just now went to the PoR and RD BEXP. The less you use the turn wheel the more BEXP you get.
I feel like turning the turnwheel into a more proactive mechanic instead of a reactive one would do well in making it more strategic. Let's say that instead of activating when something goes wrong, you activate it at any point in player phase and it stays active for like, two turns. During those two turns you can go back up until the point where you activated it and use a charge, but when those two turns pass, the turnwheel charge is used even though you didn't go back. You can easily put it in the in-universe context that what happens during the turnwheel turns is actually you forming and simulating strategies, that when the turns are up it just means that you executed that strategy and it worked and when you go back it's because the simulation didn't work out and the charges are your mental stamina, which may recover for every chapter that you don't use the turnwheel.
I never really understood why people complain that the Turnwheel mechanic makes the game too easy. It exists as a crutch if RNG screws you over but you could also say f it and hop on foot instead. As another comment pointed out, making the reward for not using it gold or really good weapons makes the game easier for those already good at it while simultaneously making it harder for those who struggle so striking the right balance seems difficult to say the least. At the end of the day it's not as though IS is pointing a gun at your head to make you use it. If someone doesn't like it just ignore it. That simple.
The way I look at the turnwheel mechanic is just another way to reset the battle without actually resetting the game itself. It's going to save me a bit of time from having to go through the menus again if someone dies. I've been playing FE for 20 years and gotten pretty good at not losing my army but sometimes you do get that nearly impossible odds crit or you do twitch your thumb just slightly to the right putting your training unit right in front of the boss but don't notice until enemy phase which one shots the unit in question. The wheel just makes fixing those minor mistakes a bit quicker.
Mila's turnwheel. Or as it really is, save states but less strict. I think thats what makes it even more of a "eh It's fine it exists" because replaying old games we all know lots of us when that option exists it we'll use eventually. At least level ups are less abusable with turn wheel. I think the best result would be giving a unique currency that can be used for better weapons sooner, but also just bring back BEXP, so people can use it to train the 'bad' units easier. BEXP was a great motivater to doing maps in an intented way. I am sad that this video wasn't about just making the Fire Emblem DMC, I want to play as a Lord Royalguarding my lance weakeness
Thing is, in an action game it makes sense to reward skillful play, so the equivalent would be to prize tactics in a tactics game. The issue is, tactics and strategy are best tested when the the player LACKS resources, not when they have an abundance of them. This means, early rank rewards are extremely likely to make the next ones easier to gain, a positive feedback loop that could be hard to both hop into and drop off midgame. Those who failed early, can't join easily, those who won early, have the game on automatic. Dunno, to me the easiest most effective solution would be to remove it on Lunatic/Classic mode.
Kaga did this in his recently released Vestaria Saga remake. There's a per chapter ranking system that drops your score every time you reload a map save. And there's a score shop that you can use to get items.
Problem I see with this system is we are back to the problem of being screwed over by low percentage crits and other BS. The rewards for not using the wheel would have to good but not so good as to effectively become another reset condition. I would think you could balance the rewards with like an occasional stat booster or 5000g. Stuff that is definitely good but not game breaking to miss a few of.
The problem with this is that it gets you the typical misplaced rewards. The more skilled player gets more rewards than the less skilled ones, meaning that the game gets easier for people who would like some more challenge and harder for those who are already struggling. I do believe meaningful ranks would be good incentive in FE, but giving more power for playing better tends to be ineffective.
Agreed, I've always thought about things like that in games like Megaman X or something. Upgrades are meant to reward more experienced or engaged players, but they reward them by making the game easier. I think maybe they could bring back things like Gaiden or Trail maps as a reward for good play. Might run into the problem of the casual player missing out on extra content instead of small items, but it could provide more replay value.
I definitely think a system like this should be used to give the player more options rather than more power. Skills like shove and smite, utility staves, etc. would much better serve hardcore players than casuals and more often than not don't give the player a straight up power boost. I at least think this is way more interesting than more money to forge with or something
Pretty much. The players who'd probably see a major increase in success if they got the rewards don't get them while the ones who show they don't need them in the first place, do. Honestly at this point, the whole casual mode/turnwheel debacle is lost because its been 6 and 3 games with them and I'm pretty sure the silent majority of FE fans really don't care about strategy, tactics, challenges, rankings and etc in comparison to how they feel about the characters, storytelling, lore and worldbuilding. The gameplay is a nice bonus, but there's a reason why Awakening and 3H are household names, why Echoes presentation is always the first thing people say about it, why Fates and Engage's plots are always talking pieces, so on and so forth. You don't need to be good at the game to talk about its story, which opens the floor of discussion to a much wider audience. It's easier to argue why you like a character over argue how good a unit is.
Just make it part of the difficulty slider. Basic difficulty, a casual player can coast with on-map rewards, ignoring the rating system. Higher difficulty, on-map rewards are reduced, so you'll fall behind if you aren't playing for rating.
games should reward those who perform well. FIre Emblem itself already has rewards that are only in the reach of better players, like faraway villages that require planning to get in time, recruitable units that go away after a set number of turns. and you still can beat the game just fine if you miss them. what is the incentive of getting better at solving the game if you don't get anything out of it? this is like saying tournaments shouldn't give the highest prize for the first place because they then will use these resources to get even better and win next time. yeah, so what?
We could also take aspects of the Advance Wars rank system. Some post map or post game rewards could be extra hard gaiden maps or even modifiers for harder difficulties.
Super Robot Wars OG had a similar system, where the campaign's difficulty would fluctuate depending on the number of Battle Masteries you had acquired.
I was expecting this video to be about a hypothetical "Alear Must Die" mode where all your units are capped at 1 hp but your damage is doubled or some shit. This is a good idea too though.
So... Berwick Saga, anyone? That would be awesome, mixing Berwick Saga's strategic complexity with Fire Emblem sounds dope as all hell as a way to address the turnwheel.
Berwick had the save in a new slot every 5 turns mechanic which was fine. Gives you a safety net while not being widely abuseable to reset hit, crit, undesired level ups, etc
Probably worth calling out that the red orb distribution based on rank also paces a new or bad player to get new moves slightly more slowly so they have time to get familiar with those new moves, perhaps one per level, as opposed to an experienced/stylebeast player who may already be familiar with them and eager to have everything. Even though ranking high gets you a reward, ranking low doesn't necessarily turn into a punishment, either. I'm not sure if this duality could be tied back to fire emblem, though it would take more effort (more optional objectives for players with consistently high rank? new units coming in at higher level for low ranks? Something that gives high ranking players more challenge and more exp along the way might be a good take (ie: enemy general recognizes the competency of the oncoming force and sends more troops to confront them) if balanced against an opportunity for casual players to grind in a repeatable stage that hardcore players would avoid. There are lots of ideas, but it would take some play testing)
In DMC, the grade system is not as consequential because you can just repeat stages and grind currency. So even if you're bad, you won't feel like you're missing anything for getting low scores. But in games where rewards are limited, like tower defense games, you'd want to repeat stages and refine runs until you get the highest rewards to get all the upgrades that can help on later stages. In the end, it would just revert the turn wheel into the ye olde save scumming. But what do I know, I don't play fire emblem and I don't know why I'm here.
The best idea I can think of for this is to make it like Berwick saga (sidequests, logistics, etc.), which would make your life easier, but there's nothing to stop you from playing the game like a casual and enjoying it. Heck, it could be used in higher difficulties to make people play like an insane tactician who somehow wins (like Excelblem). or an alternate idea: make it cost a lot of money or lock endings/events behind to avoid over-usage... aaand there's a death warrant on my head already. Edit: wrote this before you mentioned Berwick saga... also, the mob has come for my blood
It's probably an oversimplified solution, but my first thought with the turnwheel mechanic being argued (in a good vs bad sense) is that they could just make it a difficulty option feature, between casual and classic mode (in which case casual would feature the turnwheel as well) or a separate selection option (like modern vs traditional or sth) They could go with like "casual" "classic" "true classic/traditional" if they wanted to consider the more modern games featuring turnwheel, or call the turnwheel+permadeath option something else. Though a reward system (as suggested in the video) could work wonderfully as well- if it was like BonusEXP from Tellius, something intangible that doesn't need to be explained to the player as to why you receive it in the first place (doubly so when messing with the timeline, which the average person in universe wouldn't be able to notice) or as another comment already mentions has the character giving the rewards somehow be tied to the mechanic- In which case they could even use their own "currency" maybe even make it so that you need to purchase every single charge of the divine pulse and the number of uses doesn't reset by chapter.
I feel like the entire "turnwheel problem" just ceases to exist if the game makes it part of the initial difficulty settings (like they did with permadeath with classic/casual mode). People who don't like it can just turn it off and make it not an option. I personally don't see the point in any system that lets the player use the turnwheel, but then punishes them for using it, especially with some kind of "bad grade". Sure, providing a pathway that encourages the casual audience to get better at the game is a good thing in theory, but you don't need to do it by straightforwardly telling the player that they're "doing it wrong" by making use of the time rewind feature that the game went out of its way to make available to them. If it's wrong and bad to use it, why does it exist at all? I think it's kind of funny that you accurately described the mindset of a person who is thankful for the existence of the turnwheel at the beginning of the video, but then you don't actually consider that person's POV at all when considering your "solution" to the turnwheel problem. So, that person can still rewind to save their dead unit instead of spending 3 hours replaying the map - but now the game also gets to call them a scrub at the end for doing so. In what way does that improve the experience? It's a QOL feature that exists to reduce the amount of times that players reset the game/drop the game entirely out of frustration. A grading system encourages the player to actually reset the game more in order to retry for better grades. These two things are not compatible - they are inherently opposed to each other. They exist to serve opposite portions of the playerbase.
Yeah and aside from that people who don't like it can just not use it. In old games people had to reset entire maps when they didn't like an outcome, this just saves you time. I really don't see how it is a problem honestly, just don't make it part of the story and you're good to go.
They need to do Dishonored 2, when in the beginning you could say to god-like being: "No, I do not need this supernatural power easying gameplay, I'mma go hardcore"
There was this romhack that did something similar but by completing the chapter below a turn limit it gave specific rewards and they were pretty useful, even unique items like a reginleif and the only silver card of the game. my only complain were the "penalties" where if i was past certain number of turns by the end, the game would steal (idk a better word for it i forgor my english) gold from me, getting worse later in the game, it wasn't as bad but idk why would you need a penalty, on top of losing the reward, you get punished even if it is "balanced"
Probably code of the black knights? The example you provided is probably why lives systems in platformers are gone. You're already punished for failing by having to replay a level, but now you're inconvenienced by getting kicked to the title screen and...just reloading your save back to where you already failed
@@A_Person_64 nah i just recalled, the rom is called the sun's god wrath and yeah, i really hate restarting a pretty long chapter for whatever reason now, i got tired of doing it everytime and losing every progress i felt i made
Honestly my favourite way of handling map to map incentive structures like this was bonus experience in the Tellius games. Bring that back and make turnwheel one of the parameters for that. No hiding it until you've beaten the game I think though. I want to see why I'm getting what I'm getting right away.
It could be a really simple formula. You already only have a limited number of uses so maybe at the end of the map you get like 50 battle EXP for each remaining turn wheel use.
I’m shocked that I’ve never heard this idea phrased in this way before! I’m a Bayonetta fan and Idgaf about the ranks, but I still played the games to see the story/see Bayo being an icon! This would be really cool to see for at least 1 game. I like the turnwheel and think it has a place in the series
Honestly I think one of the best ways was in the fe11 and fe12 remakes. Having saving be like a resource or a part of the map that you have manage/play around can do a lot for map design while also getting rid of the tedium of redoing a long map. Side note: having to restart an entire map because of a misinput is one of the worst feelings ever.
In many ways, this is what Bonus Exp in the Tellius games was going for. Accomodate casual players but give incentive to play aggressively for those who enjoy that playstyle. It blows my mind that Bexp never came back. My pitch was always that the Turnwheel should just cost Gold, and you could even make it so the price increases every time you use it. The first time only costs 100 gold, the second 200 etc. This way, you are not punished harshly for using it once or twice, but you are discouraged from spamming it. And in this scenario, the price should also reset between maps.
Though in here you're assuming that the skill based gameplay of DMC is comparable to the luck based gameplay of FE... like you could bait an army of armor axe knights with your armorslayer myrmidon and get 2%ed enough times resulting in your myrmidon dying and that is not something you can prevent with skill and so you either loose your reliable dodge tank or you let your rank suffer or you begin again...
i would actually point towards Valkyria Chronicles for having a system like this, though it is really easy to exploit because Turn count was the biggest factor and you could easily 1 turn a lot of missions. I feel like the criticism this system is gettting, rewarding skilled players more while punishing those struggling, can easily be countered by "show me which long term, skilled player is playing FE games on Normal mode?". Instead of higher difficulties just increasing enemy stats, they could be designed with you having access to better rewards. Like a village on Normal mode can be saved from bandits by just having a 5 move infantry unit walk to it, while on higher difficulties you either need to send a Pegasus up there and risk her life against Bandits who could easily kill her, or you Warp someone there with a warp staff you could only reasonably afford this early with the higher rewards.
The VC rank system annoys me. Makes me want to constantly reset and rng the shit out of it instead of paying to have fun. I don't want to be a LTCer but the game was engineered with psychological warfare to make me that! Thank God FE only does MVP...
Fire Emblem 🤝🏿 Valkyria Chronicles Movement is the best stat I had an idea for the 3 FE difficulties where the situation would change entirely depending on what you're playing on. Normal: boss warns you about thieves raiding chest on t4 who then spawn on t5 Hard: thieves already on the map and instead reach the treasure room by t4 and loot it by t5 Maddening: thieves already have looted the treasure and open the escape room by t4 and actually leave by t5. Rather than boosting stats, the situation requires more active mobilization as the difficulty goes up. There's also a ROMhack named Eligor's spear which lets you choose the difficulty per map which is neat and would better tie into the above with being able to rechoose an option.
I thought you were gonna suggest something similar to the gold orb/ red orb revive system. Just spend gold to use the turn wheel. Or something like that. That being said something you said I feel is a bit backwards. Casual players will probably be more bothered by lower ranks, while hard-core players will careless. Casuals will feel the less resources, and may very well struggle if they can't buy that extra silver sword. Mean while we all know hard-core players will do minimum rank 0% growth runs, because "hardcore" FE players do psychotic shit like that all the time
0% growths barely even count as hardcore anymore tbh. I've seen casual players doing them and honestly, it just goes to show how balanced each FE is for accounting for bad level ups (and how even a lot of unpromoted units hold up off their base stats + promo gains + skills + player skill, alone)
Your chapter ranking system idea is almost 1:1 with how Unicorn Overlord works. In that game, your rewards for timely and thorough completion of a map affect your ranking, and the better the score you get, the more Funds, Honor (a currency used to hire mercenaries, promote your units, or expand unit sizes), and Renown (a progression system similar to Professor Rank in FE3H which unlocks new gameplay features as it increases from F to S) you obtain. Granted, there is no turnwheel in that game since battles are generally very fast-paced and permadeath only exists in the unlockable highest difficulty mode, but I think in the context of Fire Emblem you could adapt this well. Your score in this hypothetical context would consist of the turn count, number of enemies defeated, map objectives or bonus objectives completed, and the number of Turnwheel charges remaining at the end of the map. The game would then take a percent of that numerical score, and dish out Gold or some other relevant rewards based on the game's systems, such as Bond Fragments in Engage's case.
First of all, thank you all for the TON of comments, I greatly appreciate them! I just want to address that a lot of people are saying Bonus EXP, but I didn't want that system for 2 reasons. 1. Bonus XP only really cared about turn count and occasionally a map exclusive event like sparing vigilantes- the rank system from FE4/6/7 graded you for a lot more then that 2. Bonus XP is broken as shit. Radiant Dawn tried to make it worse and it just ended up making it more broken, so I went with gold because its much easier to balance what is and isnt in a shop. Was probably worth mentioning this in the video, but this was born from a late night group chat so it's a miracle that it makes any sense at all.
I do feel like it's already good that the uses are more and more limited on higher difficulties. Personally, it would make total sense to have 8 uses on Normal, 4 uses on hard, and only 1 or 2 uses on Lunatic/Maddening. I also feel that a rank could be tied to something other than just gold, but what resource that would be would need to be carefully considered.
Turnwheel is so game dependent I'm no sure if disguising it in a vacuum has much merit. In 3 houses you don't get new units. The game expects you to keep everyone alive has some bullshit maps. To the best of my knowledge no one has succeeded a maddening 3 Houses iron man without pulse. Those that have attempted it have only said how soul crushing and unfun it is. That is because you don't have other tools to deal with death. Conquest is similar in this regard. After your last royal you don't really get anyone else and the game 100% is built around the expectation that all the royals are alive. The game knows this and has all the hardest maps in the middle and never throws any bullshit at you at the extreme of echos or 3h. A turnwheel would serve zero use in a game like fe7. The enemies all have stats so low most of them can be cleared by your characters at base and you get a new op unit every other chapter so you have have 3/4 of the cast die and still have smooth sailing. Thus, removing turnwheel from 3h or adding it to fe7 would be in my opinion really bad and desegregate the experiences, not because of any inherit aspect of the turn wheel, but because the game would be less cohesive and the sum of the parts would be lesser. In the same dragon vein, I think adding a turnwheel to conquest would improve it on a whole as the map/character/game mechanics already present are in line with the philosophic benefits a turn wheel provides. Now, irregardless of that I do think a per level ranking system that rewards you by measuring valued skills would be an improvement to the formula, but is largely irreverent to the discussion of the turnwheel. In many ways such a system would be an evolution of "the bandits are going to destroy the village" the games have always had. Do a valued task (IE get somewhere fast and kill an option adversary) in order to have more resources/options later. This is straight up fe9 bonus experience, do map objective = get stuff. A largely under explored mechanic is fe. the SRW games have battle masteries, where every level the provide an optional ridiculously difficult objective such as clear the map in 4 turns or stop X from escaping or have so and so shoot down 6 bugs before reinforcements arrive. If completed you are then given money or useful items that facilitates the feedback loop described in the video. Again, good idea, unrelated to the turnwheel.
One thing that people bring up are mid map save points, but I personally believe that they suffer from the same problems people have of turnwheel, which would being considered in the chapter's design, since the hardest difficulties in the DS games have some very rude ambush spawns at points.
The Idea you are talking about is in a Fire Emblem Hack called Code of the Black Knights. It has a ranking system, that for compleating certain objectives each map, for example, compleating it in less than x turns, you get up to 4 points in hard mode (3 points in lower difficulties). And getting all 4 points nets you a S Rank for the map and additional bonus for getting that rank. You should try playing it. Shame it doesn't have the turnwheel.
my basic counter argument to the turnwheel issue is that "if you dont like it, dont use it". and nowadays if the casual players want to actually play the old games, they would emulate and then use save states(also funny how engage has both turnwheel and save states). but a ranking system judging you on how you use the turnwheel would really be amazing. maybe they can reward the players with broken weapons as well instead of just money/xp. Just like three hopes, it would also satisfy the speedrunners as well
The answer is really simple, actually. While setting up a new walkthrough, they could just add the option to have the Turnwheel Off or On for the duration of the entire playthrough with no takebacksies aside from just starting over completely. There. Done. The hardcore maniacs can just have the thing permanently turned off no matter what for their runs, and people with lives can have the Turnwheel.
The biggest problem with Fire Emblem difficulties is that that unconditionally turn ON all the features or turn them all OFF. If I play Classic characters die forever, and in Casual, characters die for 1 map. Why not have a fatigue system like in FE5 that drops a character's condition if someone dies? Why not have a limited number of turnwheel uses instead of choosing between infinite turnwheels and taking it away entirely. Why is everyone just completely FOR or AGAINST it, or give ridiculous conditions or costs that make me not want to use it?
Because people who want Permadeath want Permadeath, not Fatiguedeath, not Winnie-Hot-Jr. death. Likewise, people simply don't want Rewinds because how it was implemented in the past and all the implications they drag. 3H made Maddening wanting the player to spend wheel uses, for that, they added a ton of cheapshots, coupled with the small cast, the only alternatives are to expend uses and/or play with a guide, of which, both are terrible and unfun scenarios. This causes wariness for the mechanic and they're yet to prove Rewinds actually makes for good design, for Engage's well designed scenarios are good either in spite of Rewinds or independently of it. Reality is, it's much less resource intensive to make a game easier by adding handicaps than making a game harder with such handicaps in place.
@@marcoasturias8520 I remember in Monster Rancher they have non-leathal KO, "injured" (as in your mon is unable to do anything for 1-4 weeks) and actual death. I don't think it would be too hard to come up with something here.
You know something I do think taking the approach of devil may cry and having you be ranked at the end of every mission would definitely give you more of a reason to actually do better and gives you more incentive to actually want you to buy stuff. And I say this as a fan of devil may cry because there is a huge feeling of getting a good rank which equals really good orb game and more ways to upgrade your characters. Hell even my friend brought up a very good point which would be they could just not have the rewind pop-up in harder difficulties thus incentivizing you to make you learn how to play The Game. Now will intelligent systems do anything like this? Definitely not considering the fact that they've been using the rewind stuff more often and while 3 houses at least has a plot reason for why it exists and why only one character can use it, engage just had to go and destroy its role by saying that their version of it is a buyable item that everyone can use. It would be cool to have something like this popup in a new fire emblem game but that would also imply that they need to make a game that's good like 3 houses but not like engage. Or at least they would have to get their groove back.
Honestly I just appreciate getting to reposition my units because I’m a klutz that misclicks a lot and gets people stuck in the wrong place and wrong weapons
RNG struggles aside, the amount of accidentally performing an action I didn't mean to (especially in FEH Arena or AR when I didn't mean to, such as making a unit wait instead of attack) would be my main reason to consider a turnwheel fair game. I think it'd be fine if there's some sort of XP or other reward for NOT using the turnwheel (similar to LTC or saving all NPCs etc conditions), but I absolutely hate the idea of ranked battles for turnbased stuff. It makes more sense for action oriented, where you are in control of your unit attacking, dodging, blocking etc.
How about making you pay gold if you want to reset? Would propably not work since the feeling of loss of what you have outweighs the feeling of loss of what you could have.
As a casual fan who isn't super fond of the turnwheel, I feel there's a few things that could be done about it. 1) Have the option to turn it off, or lock it behind a difficulty (though that sounds bad, I'm sure there's even hard mode permadeath players that might want it once or twice a game) 2) Don't let it reroll RNG. Or at least don't let it reroll RNG until after a different outcome has been taken. For example, you place an attack that misses. Go back & do it again, it will always miss. Roll it back and instead attack a different enemy, then roll back to the first and attack then the RNG rerolls. I feel this makes it fairer in a way that most players won't realize it can still be cheesed. 3) Give it limited functionality that can be improved by some means. Let's say it only allows you to roll back 3 turns. Depending on things you do, you can gain the ability to roll back more turns, but that functionality gets used up once done & must be earned back. Perhaps you gain charges by doing exceptionally poorly, to help those who're REALLY struggling. Or, those who wish to use it can use some sort of currency to upgrade it over the course of the game. Your idea sounds pretty interesting, and mine might not be the best- but I'm sure there's a way the turnwheel can be implemented that allows people who want/need it to use it without completely breaking the game, but still enforces the need to use legitimate strategy- regardless of player skill/difficulty/death setting. Just because I don't play with permadeath, that doesn't mean I don't want to engage with the game's other mechanics.
1) I feel this is the ideal and it doesn't have to compromise people wanting hardest and turnwheel. For example: in Fates, you can choose Lunatic (hardest) and Casual mode (though not Phoenix). Just add more mode selctors ei. Mode, Difficulty, Rewind, etc. Alternatively, the difference between Hard and Hardest, could be whether one has Rewinds and the other doesn't, everything else's the same, no one is losing on anything. 2) That's exactly how it works, I believe only SoV had something weird with witch AI that could alter RNG, but otherwise, you always have to do other things to rng abuse. 3) Most people use Rewinds for short term stuff already, thus isn't much of a change. It could be fine, if not a trivial change.
Isn't the turnwheel system optional in every game it's in (unless the MC dies)? Can't you guys just choose not to use it and/or manually reset the map instead?
There is a game that has already done this: Tactics Ogre Reborn. Some fights can be difficult and there are the side objectives about not getting your unit KOed AND avoid using the rewind. If you do that, you either get really good equipment, lots of stat boosters or charms that allow you to change your unit's affinity, which can be huge for boss fights. And FE should do the same: push people to play better. Because as it is, nothing forces me to endure an unlucky crit if I want to save more time. Seriously, who's gonna stop me? Kaga? The rabid fanboys that moan on youtube about a mechanic they have no power over?
They actually don't need to give the player anything for getting a good rank (it's just a cherry on top of what style ranking/combo counter real job). Style ranking serves the purpose of being the tutorial to player, you never realise this because a great tutorial is the one you don't notice. Style ranking encourages player to play the game in the intended way without handicap and limit possibilities like Doom does, it allows more freedom, and more accessable. Like in fighting game, a good combo counter is the one that gives you so much informations in real time. - In DMC you get easy to understand D-SSS. - In modern fighting game you get real time combo counter that tells you whether of not what you're doing is a real combo, and what type of combo. - While in Bayonetta, it's hard to understand number that you'll only know whether you're doing good or not after the fight is finish. Once the player learns how to play the game, style ranking is negligible.
The title is correct. If we just morph FE into real time combat, then the turnwheel is not going to be needed. *looks at the lame Three Houses vs the cool Three Hopes*
The problem with the wheel is that you can use it too many times per map. I would just make it cost an escalating amount of gold each time you used it.
I do believe features that diminish the bullshit are a welcome addition, my problem with how Turnwheel is used (in Engage specifically, haven't played other titles with similar features) is that the developers balance the game for that feature, so the amount of bullshit increases to balance its existence out. What I mean by Bullshit is those moments when your unit misses at 92% and gets hit by a 11% hit, ending your run. Even worse is when you get hit by low % chances several times in a row and the enemy crits at 2% to boot! Fire Emblem is largely reliant on RNG, so it's bound to be moments like that - and the more you play the more crap like that has a chance of happening -, but Engage is the FE title I have played with the MOST bullshit moments like that! Seriously, my units are _constantly_ missing at above 80% chance while enemies are _constantly_ hitting me at bellow 30% (and even critting me _constantly_ at 8%)! In order to balance the sheer number of enemy units, past games would have given your units higher luck and enemy units lower luck so hit rates would be turned in your favor, but since everything is RNG based and you are dealing with multiple foes, it all balances out. But engage puts enemies with similar hit rates to your units on top of them outnumbering in at a 10:1 rate in most maps! Not only that, even during the earlier chapters the game will only teach you about the multiple boss health bars only AFTER you have hit the first boss with that mechanic! During my first time facing that boss I had made a supercool move to get Etie and Celine in range of the boss with Celica and Sigurd's emblem to one round him, and it was only after I had made the move that the game told me about this super important mechanic that invalidates my strategy! Needless to say, they both got killed the next turn and I had to rewind time to not use that strategy! It feels like the game is made extra bullshitty to accommodate for the Turnwheel mechanic, as opposed to it being a quality of life insurance over bad luck. And the solution is so simple: just make a Battle Save feature, like in the localized version of FE10, but make it limited! Say, 3 times per chapter and it costs a special currency you get for making good plays, like using effective weapons against certain units or rescuing green units in previous maps. Reward good plays with a way to save your battle states during a chapter, but don't go overboard with it!
Sorry, but if you had anything but 100% hit, that's your call, you wanted that. Engraves give more than enough to patch any decent attacker. Got hit by a low percenter? Don't do avo tanks, they suck. If the fate of a unit was left to avoiding, that's The Schrodinger's unit, dead and alive until hit. A low crit killed you? How?! Luck is OP in this game, it gives twice as many dodge as Skill gives crit. But also, Engraves give dodge, again, use them! This game doesn't do cheapshots often, not outside of fog anyways. Sure, it's bad the tutorial shows up after killing Waluigi once, but this is a farcry in bullshiterry compared to what 3H does in maddening. If anything, this only shows why Rewinds should be completely removed, so the Devs have to be wary of never inconveniencing the player like that. Because they couldn't use Rewinds as a crutch to save their asses, they'd have to make sure the game is always fun.
I went back to play awakening recently and got a unit i really like killed via a 2 percent crit, and i remembered why i really liked the turnwheel. If i lose a unit because of gross miscalculation, thats, one thing that's my fault. I do not like losing a unit i had a high investment in to something out of my control.
I do think honestly the idea of extra stat boosters might be a little too much insensitive for the mid skill level players and can create frustrations especially if they're a speedwing or energy drop.
Use of the turnwheel isn't morally wrong, and the game shouldn't act like it is. Lame play is what the game should discourage. If you have a bad time grinding for 8 hours straight on the first map, and you put on a bad show for your 300 stream viewers, the game should penalize you for making the game look bad. The game should reward the awesome risky approach more.
I think that people take Turnwheel too seriously. If casuals want to use it, let them. If a veteran doesn't want to use it, don't. In the era of emulating fire emblem games, turnwheel is no different from using save states, except you have a charge limit. It's up to a person not to use savestates (if someone dies for me, I just reset the whole map). If the only thing stopping people from using a Turnwheel is a few stars, I don't think they care as much about undoing choices that much. Not every game mechanic has to benefit all people. Turnwheel is given in the story but it's up to the player to use it. Byleth uses it in the story twice but you don't have to use them during maps. This mechanics was created specifically for the casuals. The same way how lunatic+ modes was introduce for masochists, it only benefits part of the fanbase.
This. People don't understand that the """hardcore""" experience can be replicated by not pressing the rewind button, it's that simple. The player has full control over the rewind, the game even gives you a game over option if your lord died
@@maverick5169hate to be that guy, but while sometimes the lord dying gives a game over (like in Echoes), other games like 3H will immediately have the turn wheel kick in if you hit a lose condition and have at least 1 charge. You could just burn the charges at the start of the map, but that can be very tedious.
@@shanegiorgio4713 then it would come back to player restraint again. Will you taint your divine pulse less run by caving in and using rewind? I didn't do ironman runs in fire emblem yet but from my experience in many, many pokemon nuzlockes it really comes down to the player whether they abide by the rules or not.
My thoughts on the matter are that it's optional so who cares it's like you can turn off permanent death and MOST people care so little about that personally I like turn wheel
While I do advocate for the turn wheel myself I think "Its optional" isn't really a great argument for the turnwheel as its inclusion is actively taken into consideration for the game design nowadays
Isn´t this solution not also a little troublesome? If you get high ranks which means you get high Ressources, you can buy stuff that makes your units even better so you can steamroll the next maps, which means high ranks again, which means you steamroll even further and get more high ranks and so on.
That’s only if the game gives out the super valuable stuff early on. Like if they gave out an S rank weapon that easily and arms scrolls then yeah this would be a bad use of the ranking system. But if you’re careful you can reserve gold for endgame and steamroll there
@@greatrieck In my opinion it would be the better way to give more controll to the player. Critchances are reduced by luck for example. Why not give clerics a staff (or spell) that raise the luck state. So if you don´t use it or waste it, it´s your fault, which feels much better then loosing charakters through RNG BS while you could do nothing against it and even the math said it was on your side. I mean we have the Killer weapons which does the opposite and raise your crit chances and some units depend on it. I still like the idea of a ranking system, Advance Wars had this, and you could spend a lot of time retrying a map and get better results. Thats a long time motivator. But even in Advance Wars, the maps don´t take as long as Fire emblem´s AND you have not to fear of loosing your favorite units (or any of your guys). In games like Sonic Adventure 2 it is rare that a level took more then 10 Minutes to play. Thats not as time consuming then it would took to play a fire Emblem map again especialy if you consider that you can´t normaly replay a map if you not start a new game. I think that if the Player can see that he sucks after investing so much time and doing the math to save his guys, it would be really demotivating for them to see that all his tries and learning from errors just earn them a bad rank while sacrificing units just to end the map quicker and earn a higher rank could hurt you in the long run of 20+ maps. I think this is the reason why we don´t have seen a rank system after every map like we did in every Advance Wars game, which were developed by the same people. Even if you grant rewards, they have to be better then the price you pay to get it. Any Jaigan unit can easily win the first few maps in a short period of time for example. But you pay for this in form of Exp for your other charakters and also in form of uses of the steel or silver weapons which Jaigan units wield at the start. It´s hard to balance this i think.
That would just mean that the "hardcore" fanbase will just reload the save instead of using the Turnwheel. Turnwheel is overall more of a QOL feature after all. Now if you want to really spice up the game, introduce the unit condition system ala X-Com where units get tired after going on the missions multiple times in a row. That would prevent players getting carried by OP units alone.
Thracia 776 had fatigue which was the same thing and one of the things people debate about. Personally, don't really mind since stats are demphasized in the game as a whole in that game so having a rotating cast of units is way easier to come by compared to something like most modern FE games where the combination of smaller cast and higher stats means its difficult to replace someone.
Hey, uh, you ever played The Red Star for PS2 and i think PSP? It gave you points based on how you cleared the level. These points could be used to upgrade your character! The game was pretty damn hard, especially towards late game. So! If I got hit beyond 20hp, that the threshold for an S rank, at least in the first 3, 4, 5, can't remember how long i was that exacting for-I'd reset. The better you are in that game, the more upgrades you get, so the easier the game becomes for you. The worse you are, the harder it is for you. Doesn't this seem to defy conventional difficulty logic? Surely, one would present the most upgrades and easiness options to the lower skill player lowering their barrier of fun, or completion, whilst the higher skill player, well, they might not need all that, they might want a good challenge! So, what do i say? Hah! Rewards that make the game easier are not the answer! This is where we bring back Extras. You remember those? I do... Concept Art, Sound Test, Costumes! You see? Give that plunder to the hotshots who do challenge runs and get high ranks! I think that's a much more relevant reward to the extrinsic and video-gamey ranking system, too.
Hmmmm.... I wonder how good of an idea is this, so debate it in the comments but... Rank-only accessible grinding maps (Similar to the Tower of Valni from SS, so easy enemies, and free EXP in an otherwise no-grind map game) You could even go a step further, and have a good map rank give 1 attempt to the same place, so that you could just go higher and higher instead of each being a brand new map (again, just like Tower of Valni)
I cringed so hard, not because the idea is bad but because I consider DMC 1 to have a serious problem with it's ranking system and that's the one I played most recently. The way to get really good times is to spam holy water from the shop. The way to afford holy water to spam is to get a really good time. It's much less interesting than playing the game.
Just thought of this, what if Turn wheel is based on turn count? Rewinds reset the entire turn and for every tun rewound it is unavailable until the player reaches the same turn number.
As someone who likes the Turnwheel myself its not really something you have to use every map unless you kinda suck so isn't rewarding the player for not using it just actively making the game easier?
usually the people who complain about crits at the end of a map could’ve played better to avoid it… people act like they’re a undeniable law of fire emblem that can just happen to anybody no matter what. just no…
Pokemon locking its easy mode behind a second playthrough before deciding to lock the entire games from now on into easy mode was the decision of all time.
Fire Emblem's ranking system doesn't even make sense though. Are you going to spread out the exp just to get more stars? If a unit dies, do you really need the game to tell you that it is bad? I think it gamifies too much. Fire Emblem is one of the main games I can recall that is almost "anti-completionist". If a unit dies you can't go back to save them. If you add a ranking system, then a certain type of player might feel compelled to treat the game like more of a completionist-type game where everything needs to be perfect. It just ruins things for me, personally. Obviously, the player can just do whatever, but it explicitly says "this is how you should play the game", which I think makes the game less enjoyable. There is a good variety of player expression, and this can come through in repeat playthroughs.
Valkiria Chronicles does Ranks and rewards, and yeah, I feel the psychological warfare at work. If I don't get A rank, I'll be a noob and the world will explode! Or at least that's how it feels!
Tbf most people reset the game anyway if their unit dies so there is no real difference if it exist or not But they should lower the amount of rewinds that one can use
Fire emblem players, even casuals, have big fear of missing out on stuff, that's why every map is a rout map, every chest that gives a vulnerary in the final map has to be opened. I don't think this incentive goes in the right direction, but it's a good idea overall.
Three Houses really needed the Turnwheel. The recruitment is so front loaded, that you can't really replace fallen units and you kinda need to use the turn wheel if somebody dies. I recently replayed Shadow Dragon and I really enjoyed the mid map save points, they give you basically a second or third chance on a map, but only one time and only in a specific place. I think its the best compromise if the game is build around it
It needed it to ease up people into it but nowadays it's a very fun game to ironman.
@@g.n.s.153 I agree completely, but most first time Players wont do an ironman and I think if you dont know whats coming you kinda need the turnwheel in 3h
fire emblem will turn devil may cry into angel june laugh
devil may cry will turn fire emblem into watercrest
"How turning FE into DMC can solve the turnwheel problem"
Rutger:TRI-RO-SWO-RO-SWO-TRI...
Every single enemy in elibe:confused(and extremely afraid) screaming
Nice attention to detail that the stance dance is missing Gunslinger because this would be FE
@@shanegiorgio4713
Rutger: BOWSLINGER
Enemy unit: hey you can't-
_crit_
Enemy unit: ow my lung
A differentiation I think you could make, instead of only being Gold, maybe the reward for getting a good ranking could differ based on the map as a way of making the reward feel more diagetic. A map where you have to escape, or defend against an opposing army, or otherwise in a situation where it would be strange to receive a copious amount of gold at the end, you could recieve a piece of equipment, or maybe even bring back the BEXP mechanic from the Tellius games. Hell, if anything, if we want this mechanic to be truly diagetic, maybe make the turnwheel a semi-character, like Lilith or especially Sommie with his bond crystals. You can exchange that fake currency for strong benefits or items, and while everyone would get this resource, you get more if you please them, which could include skilled tactics, and especially not forcing them to rewind time for you 5 times in a row.
I like this. You could probably make this objective specific. Route earns additional gold, Defend earns weapons, seize rewards B.Exp, Survive earns stat boosters, so on so forth.
All I thought when I saw the Title was think how a Fire Emblem set in Devil May Cry's world would work.
Well Dante was in SMT3 and Majin Tensei is just SMT as an SRPG...
@@A_Person_64 and Dante and Vergil were in Project X Zone 1 and 2, which are also SRPGs (or maybe it was just Dante in both and Vergil was only in the 2nd one)
I like the idea of that ranking thing, but maybe it should be taken a step further, like having the reward be a special currency a la Unicorn Overlord's arena that buys strong items in a special shop.
As someone who was in the GC this idea was inspired from (and gave the gold idea) this was fun to see expanded on. My brain also just now went to the PoR and RD BEXP. The less you use the turn wheel the more BEXP you get.
I feel like turning the turnwheel into a more proactive mechanic instead of a reactive one would do well in making it more strategic. Let's say that instead of activating when something goes wrong, you activate it at any point in player phase and it stays active for like, two turns. During those two turns you can go back up until the point where you activated it and use a charge, but when those two turns pass, the turnwheel charge is used even though you didn't go back.
You can easily put it in the in-universe context that what happens during the turnwheel turns is actually you forming and simulating strategies, that when the turns are up it just means that you executed that strategy and it worked and when you go back it's because the simulation didn't work out and the charges are your mental stamina, which may recover for every chapter that you don't use the turnwheel.
That's how I would justify such a mechanic too.
I never really understood why people complain that the Turnwheel mechanic makes the game too easy. It exists as a crutch if RNG screws you over but you could also say f it and hop on foot instead.
As another comment pointed out, making the reward for not using it gold or really good weapons makes the game easier for those already good at it while simultaneously making it harder for those who struggle so striking the right balance seems difficult to say the least.
At the end of the day it's not as though IS is pointing a gun at your head to make you use it. If someone doesn't like it just ignore it. That simple.
The way I look at the turnwheel mechanic is just another way to reset the battle without actually resetting the game itself. It's going to save me a bit of time from having to go through the menus again if someone dies. I've been playing FE for 20 years and gotten pretty good at not losing my army but sometimes you do get that nearly impossible odds crit or you do twitch your thumb just slightly to the right putting your training unit right in front of the boss but don't notice until enemy phase which one shots the unit in question. The wheel just makes fixing those minor mistakes a bit quicker.
Mila's turnwheel.
Or as it really is, save states but less strict.
I think thats what makes it even more of a "eh It's fine it exists" because replaying old games we all know lots of us when that option exists it we'll use eventually. At least level ups are less abusable with turn wheel.
I think the best result would be giving a unique currency that can be used for better weapons sooner, but also just bring back BEXP, so people can use it to train the 'bad' units easier. BEXP was a great motivater to doing maps in an intented way.
I am sad that this video wasn't about just making the Fire Emblem DMC, I want to play as a Lord Royalguarding my lance weakeness
Thing is, in an action game it makes sense to reward skillful play, so the equivalent would be to prize tactics in a tactics game. The issue is, tactics and strategy are best tested when the the player LACKS resources, not when they have an abundance of them. This means, early rank rewards are extremely likely to make the next ones easier to gain, a positive feedback loop that could be hard to both hop into and drop off midgame. Those who failed early, can't join easily, those who won early, have the game on automatic.
Dunno, to me the easiest most effective solution would be to remove it on Lunatic/Classic mode.
Yeah! If people want to undo bad RNG, they need to quit the map like God intended!
Just be luckier, smh
Kaga did this in his recently released Vestaria Saga remake. There's a per chapter ranking system that drops your score every time you reload a map save. And there's a score shop that you can use to get items.
Problem I see with this system is we are back to the problem of being screwed over by low percentage crits and other BS. The rewards for not using the wheel would have to good but not so good as to effectively become another reset condition. I would think you could balance the rewards with like an occasional stat booster or 5000g. Stuff that is definitely good but not game breaking to miss a few of.
The problem with this is that it gets you the typical misplaced rewards. The more skilled player gets more rewards than the less skilled ones, meaning that the game gets easier for people who would like some more challenge and harder for those who are already struggling.
I do believe meaningful ranks would be good incentive in FE, but giving more power for playing better tends to be ineffective.
Agreed, I've always thought about things like that in games like Megaman X or something. Upgrades are meant to reward more experienced or engaged players, but they reward them by making the game easier. I think maybe they could bring back things like Gaiden or Trail maps as a reward for good play. Might run into the problem of the casual player missing out on extra content instead of small items, but it could provide more replay value.
I definitely think a system like this should be used to give the player more options rather than more power. Skills like shove and smite, utility staves, etc. would much better serve hardcore players than casuals and more often than not don't give the player a straight up power boost. I at least think this is way more interesting than more money to forge with or something
Pretty much. The players who'd probably see a major increase in success if they got the rewards don't get them while the ones who show they don't need them in the first place, do.
Honestly at this point, the whole casual mode/turnwheel debacle is lost because its been 6 and 3 games with them and I'm pretty sure the silent majority of FE fans really don't care about strategy, tactics, challenges, rankings and etc in comparison to how they feel about the characters, storytelling, lore and worldbuilding. The gameplay is a nice bonus, but there's a reason why Awakening and 3H are household names, why Echoes presentation is always the first thing people say about it, why Fates and Engage's plots are always talking pieces, so on and so forth.
You don't need to be good at the game to talk about its story, which opens the floor of discussion to a much wider audience. It's easier to argue why you like a character over argue how good a unit is.
Just make it part of the difficulty slider. Basic difficulty, a casual player can coast with on-map rewards, ignoring the rating system. Higher difficulty, on-map rewards are reduced, so you'll fall behind if you aren't playing for rating.
games should reward those who perform well.
FIre Emblem itself already has rewards that are only in the reach of better players, like faraway villages that require planning to get in time, recruitable units that go away after a set number of turns. and you still can beat the game just fine if you miss them.
what is the incentive of getting better at solving the game if you don't get anything out of it?
this is like saying tournaments shouldn't give the highest prize for the first place because they then will use these resources to get even better and win next time. yeah, so what?
As a Devil May Cry fan, I can confirm ASS is sometimes a better ranking than SSS. I would also like to be ASS at Fire Emblem.
We could also take aspects of the Advance Wars rank system. Some post map or post game rewards could be extra hard gaiden maps or even modifiers for harder difficulties.
Super Robot Wars OG had a similar system, where the campaign's difficulty would fluctuate depending on the number of Battle Masteries you had acquired.
I was expecting this video to be about a hypothetical "Alear Must Die" mode where all your units are capped at 1 hp but your damage is doubled or some shit.
This is a good idea too though.
Lunatic/Maddening is DMD, more or less
0% growths is heaven or hell
Negative growths is just Hell and Hell
So... Berwick Saga, anyone?
That would be awesome, mixing Berwick Saga's strategic complexity with Fire Emblem sounds dope as all hell as a way to address the turnwheel.
Berwick had the save in a new slot every 5 turns mechanic which was fine. Gives you a safety net while not being widely abuseable to reset hit, crit, undesired level ups, etc
No no... hes got a point
Probably worth calling out that the red orb distribution based on rank also paces a new or bad player to get new moves slightly more slowly so they have time to get familiar with those new moves, perhaps one per level, as opposed to an experienced/stylebeast player who may already be familiar with them and eager to have everything. Even though ranking high gets you a reward, ranking low doesn't necessarily turn into a punishment, either.
I'm not sure if this duality could be tied back to fire emblem, though it would take more effort (more optional objectives for players with consistently high rank? new units coming in at higher level for low ranks? Something that gives high ranking players more challenge and more exp along the way might be a good take (ie: enemy general recognizes the competency of the oncoming force and sends more troops to confront them) if balanced against an opportunity for casual players to grind in a repeatable stage that hardcore players would avoid. There are lots of ideas, but it would take some play testing)
In DMC, the grade system is not as consequential because you can just repeat stages and grind currency. So even if you're bad, you won't feel like you're missing anything for getting low scores.
But in games where rewards are limited, like tower defense games, you'd want to repeat stages and refine runs until you get the highest rewards to get all the upgrades that can help on later stages.
In the end, it would just revert the turn wheel into the ye olde save scumming.
But what do I know, I don't play fire emblem and I don't know why I'm here.
How'd you get here? DMC video and then algorithm linked you here?
@@A_Person_64 Probably unicorn overlord. watching a single review of that game is enough to funnel fire emblem videos. But I clicked cause DMC.
The best idea I can think of for this is to make it like Berwick saga (sidequests, logistics, etc.), which would make your life easier, but there's nothing to stop you from playing the game like a casual and enjoying it. Heck, it could be used in higher difficulties to make people play like an insane tactician who somehow wins (like Excelblem).
or an alternate idea: make it cost a lot of money or lock endings/events behind to avoid over-usage... aaand there's a death warrant on my head already.
Edit: wrote this before you mentioned Berwick saga... also, the mob has come for my blood
I agree, when Ike procs aether devil trigger should play.
Engage more or less is DT
It's probably an oversimplified solution, but my first thought with the turnwheel mechanic being argued (in a good vs bad sense) is that they could just make it a difficulty option feature, between casual and classic mode (in which case casual would feature the turnwheel as well) or a separate selection option (like modern vs traditional or sth)
They could go with like "casual" "classic" "true classic/traditional" if they wanted to consider the more modern games featuring turnwheel, or call the turnwheel+permadeath option something else.
Though a reward system (as suggested in the video) could work wonderfully as well-
if it was like BonusEXP from Tellius, something intangible that doesn't need to be explained to the player as to why you receive it in the first place (doubly so when messing with the timeline, which the average person in universe wouldn't be able to notice)
or as another comment already mentions has the character giving the rewards somehow be tied to the mechanic- In which case they could even use their own "currency" maybe even make it so that you need to purchase every single charge of the divine pulse and the number of uses doesn't reset by chapter.
I feel like the entire "turnwheel problem" just ceases to exist if the game makes it part of the initial difficulty settings (like they did with permadeath with classic/casual mode). People who don't like it can just turn it off and make it not an option.
I personally don't see the point in any system that lets the player use the turnwheel, but then punishes them for using it, especially with some kind of "bad grade". Sure, providing a pathway that encourages the casual audience to get better at the game is a good thing in theory, but you don't need to do it by straightforwardly telling the player that they're "doing it wrong" by making use of the time rewind feature that the game went out of its way to make available to them. If it's wrong and bad to use it, why does it exist at all?
I think it's kind of funny that you accurately described the mindset of a person who is thankful for the existence of the turnwheel at the beginning of the video, but then you don't actually consider that person's POV at all when considering your "solution" to the turnwheel problem. So, that person can still rewind to save their dead unit instead of spending 3 hours replaying the map - but now the game also gets to call them a scrub at the end for doing so. In what way does that improve the experience?
It's a QOL feature that exists to reduce the amount of times that players reset the game/drop the game entirely out of frustration. A grading system encourages the player to actually reset the game more in order to retry for better grades. These two things are not compatible - they are inherently opposed to each other. They exist to serve opposite portions of the playerbase.
Yeah and aside from that people who don't like it can just not use it. In old games people had to reset entire maps when they didn't like an outcome, this just saves you time. I really don't see how it is a problem honestly, just don't make it part of the story and you're good to go.
They need to do Dishonored 2, when in the beginning you could say to god-like being: "No, I do not need this supernatural power easying gameplay, I'mma go hardcore"
There was this romhack that did something similar but by completing the chapter below a turn limit it gave specific rewards and they were pretty useful, even unique items like a reginleif and the only silver card of the game. my only complain were the "penalties" where if i was past certain number of turns by the end, the game would steal (idk a better word for it i forgor my english) gold from me, getting worse later in the game, it wasn't as bad but idk why would you need a penalty, on top of losing the reward, you get punished even if it is "balanced"
Probably code of the black knights?
The example you provided is probably why lives systems in platformers are gone. You're already punished for failing by having to replay a level, but now you're inconvenienced by getting kicked to the title screen and...just reloading your save back to where you already failed
@@A_Person_64 nah i just recalled, the rom is called the sun's god wrath and yeah, i really hate restarting a pretty long chapter for whatever reason now, i got tired of doing it everytime and losing every progress i felt i made
2:50 your video is making a lot of sense so far. 4:00 I like how this is going. Great video and idea. 👍
Honestly my favourite way of handling map to map incentive structures like this was bonus experience in the Tellius games. Bring that back and make turnwheel one of the parameters for that.
No hiding it until you've beaten the game I think though. I want to see why I'm getting what I'm getting right away.
It could be a really simple formula. You already only have a limited number of uses so maybe at the end of the map you get like 50 battle EXP for each remaining turn wheel use.
I’m shocked that I’ve never heard this idea phrased in this way before! I’m a Bayonetta fan and Idgaf about the ranks, but I still played the games to see the story/see Bayo being an icon!
This would be really cool to see for at least 1 game. I like the turnwheel and think it has a place in the series
Honestly I think one of the best ways was in the fe11 and fe12 remakes. Having saving be like a resource or a part of the map that you have manage/play around can do a lot for map design while also getting rid of the tedium of redoing a long map. Side note: having to restart an entire map because of a misinput is one of the worst feelings ever.
It could also give you more money and on some maps give you special weapons or items if you get a good score.
That just sounds like Tellius Bonus Exp with extra unneeded stwps tbh
In many ways, this is what Bonus Exp in the Tellius games was going for. Accomodate casual players but give incentive to play aggressively for those who enjoy that playstyle. It blows my mind that Bexp never came back.
My pitch was always that the Turnwheel should just cost Gold, and you could even make it so the price increases every time you use it. The first time only costs 100 gold, the second 200 etc.
This way, you are not punished harshly for using it once or twice, but you are discouraged from spamming it. And in this scenario, the price should also reset between maps.
Though in here you're assuming that the skill based gameplay of DMC is comparable to the luck based gameplay of FE... like you could bait an army of armor axe knights with your armorslayer myrmidon and get 2%ed enough times resulting in your myrmidon dying and that is not something you can prevent with skill and so you either loose your reliable dodge tank or you let your rank suffer or you begin again...
I actually really like it, thanks a lot!
i would actually point towards Valkyria Chronicles for having a system like this, though it is really easy to exploit because Turn count was the biggest factor and you could easily 1 turn a lot of missions.
I feel like the criticism this system is gettting, rewarding skilled players more while punishing those struggling, can easily be countered by "show me which long term, skilled player is playing FE games on Normal mode?". Instead of higher difficulties just increasing enemy stats, they could be designed with you having access to better rewards.
Like a village on Normal mode can be saved from bandits by just having a 5 move infantry unit walk to it, while on higher difficulties you either need to send a Pegasus up there and risk her life against Bandits who could easily kill her, or you Warp someone there with a warp staff you could only reasonably afford this early with the higher rewards.
The VC rank system annoys me. Makes me want to constantly reset and rng the shit out of it instead of paying to have fun.
I don't want to be a LTCer but the game was engineered with psychological warfare to make me that!
Thank God FE only does MVP...
Fire Emblem 🤝🏿 Valkyria Chronicles
Movement is the best stat
I had an idea for the 3 FE difficulties where the situation would change entirely depending on what you're playing on.
Normal: boss warns you about thieves raiding chest on t4 who then spawn on t5
Hard: thieves already on the map and instead reach the treasure room by t4 and loot it by t5
Maddening: thieves already have looted the treasure and open the escape room by t4 and actually leave by t5.
Rather than boosting stats, the situation requires more active mobilization as the difficulty goes up.
There's also a ROMhack named Eligor's spear which lets you choose the difficulty per map which is neat and would better tie into the above with being able to rechoose an option.
I thought you were gonna suggest something similar to the gold orb/ red orb revive system.
Just spend gold to use the turn wheel. Or something like that.
That being said something you said I feel is a bit backwards.
Casual players will probably be more bothered by lower ranks, while hard-core players will careless.
Casuals will feel the less resources, and may very well struggle if they can't buy that extra silver sword.
Mean while we all know hard-core players will do minimum rank 0% growth runs, because "hardcore" FE players do psychotic shit like that all the time
0% growths barely even count as hardcore anymore tbh. I've seen casual players doing them and honestly, it just goes to show how balanced each FE is for accounting for bad level ups (and how even a lot of unpromoted units hold up off their base stats + promo gains + skills + player skill, alone)
A fusion of this and the bonus exp system from 9 could fix alot of economy issues that recent fe have had.
Your chapter ranking system idea is almost 1:1 with how Unicorn Overlord works. In that game, your rewards for timely and thorough completion of a map affect your ranking, and the better the score you get, the more Funds, Honor (a currency used to hire mercenaries, promote your units, or expand unit sizes), and Renown (a progression system similar to Professor Rank in FE3H which unlocks new gameplay features as it increases from F to S) you obtain. Granted, there is no turnwheel in that game since battles are generally very fast-paced and permadeath only exists in the unlockable highest difficulty mode, but I think in the context of Fire Emblem you could adapt this well.
Your score in this hypothetical context would consist of the turn count, number of enemies defeated, map objectives or bonus objectives completed, and the number of Turnwheel charges remaining at the end of the map. The game would then take a percent of that numerical score, and dish out Gold or some other relevant rewards based on the game's systems, such as Bond Fragments in Engage's case.
Such a dynamic idea!
First of all, thank you all for the TON of comments, I greatly appreciate them! I just want to address that a lot of people are saying Bonus EXP, but I didn't want that system for 2 reasons.
1. Bonus XP only really cared about turn count and occasionally a map exclusive event like sparing vigilantes- the rank system from FE4/6/7 graded you for a lot more then that
2. Bonus XP is broken as shit. Radiant Dawn tried to make it worse and it just ended up making it more broken, so I went with gold because its much easier to balance what is and isnt in a shop.
Was probably worth mentioning this in the video, but this was born from a late night group chat so it's a miracle that it makes any sense at all.
I do feel like it's already good that the uses are more and more limited on higher difficulties. Personally, it would make total sense to have 8 uses on Normal, 4 uses on hard, and only 1 or 2 uses on Lunatic/Maddening. I also feel that a rank could be tied to something other than just gold, but what resource that would be would need to be carefully considered.
So... basically just expand upon the BEXP system then? Like they should have been doing every game after it?
Tellius wins again.
Turnwheel is so game dependent I'm no sure if disguising it in a vacuum has much merit. In 3 houses you don't get new units. The game expects you to keep everyone alive has some bullshit maps. To the best of my knowledge no one has succeeded a maddening 3 Houses iron man without pulse. Those that have attempted it have only said how soul crushing and unfun it is. That is because you don't have other tools to deal with death.
Conquest is similar in this regard. After your last royal you don't really get anyone else and the game 100% is built around the expectation that all the royals are alive. The game knows this and has all the hardest maps in the middle and never throws any bullshit at you at the extreme of echos or 3h.
A turnwheel would serve zero use in a game like fe7. The enemies all have stats so low most of them can be cleared by your characters at base and you get a new op unit every other chapter so you have have 3/4 of the cast die and still have smooth sailing.
Thus, removing turnwheel from 3h or adding it to fe7 would be in my opinion really bad and desegregate the experiences, not because of any inherit aspect of the turn wheel, but because the game would be less cohesive and the sum of the parts would be lesser. In the same dragon vein, I think adding a turnwheel to conquest would improve it on a whole as the map/character/game mechanics already present are in line with the philosophic benefits a turn wheel provides.
Now, irregardless of that I do think a per level ranking system that rewards you by measuring valued skills would be an improvement to the formula, but is largely irreverent to the discussion of the turnwheel. In many ways such a system would be an evolution of "the bandits are going to destroy the village" the games have always had. Do a valued task (IE get somewhere fast and kill an option adversary) in order to have more resources/options later. This is straight up fe9 bonus experience, do map objective = get stuff. A largely under explored mechanic is fe. the SRW games have battle masteries, where every level the provide an optional ridiculously difficult objective such as clear the map in 4 turns or stop X from escaping or have so and so shoot down 6 bugs before reinforcements arrive. If completed you are then given money or useful items that facilitates the feedback loop described in the video. Again, good idea, unrelated to the turnwheel.
based comment
One thing that people bring up are mid map save points, but I personally believe that they suffer from the same problems people have of turnwheel, which would being considered in the chapter's design, since the hardest difficulties in the DS games have some very rude ambush spawns at points.
This just sounds like how the Bonus Exp System could be reworked, but now I have more of an excuse to play DMC
The Idea you are talking about is in a Fire Emblem Hack called Code of the Black Knights. It has a ranking system, that for compleating certain objectives each map, for example, compleating it in less than x turns, you get up to 4 points in hard mode (3 points in lower difficulties). And getting all 4 points nets you a S Rank for the map and additional bonus for getting that rank.
You should try playing it. Shame it doesn't have the turnwheel.
my basic counter argument to the turnwheel issue is that "if you dont like it, dont use it". and nowadays if the casual players want to actually play the old games, they would emulate and then use save states(also funny how engage has both turnwheel and save states). but a ranking system judging you on how you use the turnwheel would really be amazing. maybe they can reward the players with broken weapons as well instead of just money/xp. Just like three hopes, it would also satisfy the speedrunners as well
The answer is really simple, actually. While setting up a new walkthrough, they could just add the option to have the Turnwheel Off or On for the duration of the entire playthrough with no takebacksies aside from just starting over completely. There. Done. The hardcore maniacs can just have the thing permanently turned off no matter what for their runs, and people with lives can have the Turnwheel.
The biggest problem with Fire Emblem difficulties is that that unconditionally turn ON all the features or turn them all OFF. If I play Classic characters die forever, and in Casual, characters die for 1 map. Why not have a fatigue system like in FE5 that drops a character's condition if someone dies? Why not have a limited number of turnwheel uses instead of choosing between infinite turnwheels and taking it away entirely. Why is everyone just completely FOR or AGAINST it, or give ridiculous conditions or costs that make me not want to use it?
Because people who want Permadeath want Permadeath, not Fatiguedeath, not Winnie-Hot-Jr. death. Likewise, people simply don't want Rewinds because how it was implemented in the past and all the implications they drag.
3H made Maddening wanting the player to spend wheel uses, for that, they added a ton of cheapshots, coupled with the small cast, the only alternatives are to expend uses and/or play with a guide, of which, both are terrible and unfun scenarios.
This causes wariness for the mechanic and they're yet to prove Rewinds actually makes for good design, for Engage's well designed scenarios are good either in spite of Rewinds or independently of it.
Reality is, it's much less resource intensive to make a game easier by adding handicaps than making a game harder with such handicaps in place.
@@marcoasturias8520 I remember in Monster Rancher they have non-leathal KO, "injured" (as in your mon is unable to do anything for 1-4 weeks) and actual death. I don't think it would be too hard to come up with something here.
Honestly, this idea could also be a great way to bring back Bonus EXP
So the better you beat the chapter, the more Bonus EXP you get
You know something I do think taking the approach of devil may cry and having you be ranked at the end of every mission would definitely give you more of a reason to actually do better and gives you more incentive to actually want you to buy stuff. And I say this as a fan of devil may cry because there is a huge feeling of getting a good rank which equals really good orb game and more ways to upgrade your characters. Hell even my friend brought up a very good point which would be they could just not have the rewind pop-up in harder difficulties thus incentivizing you to make you learn how to play The Game. Now will intelligent systems do anything like this?
Definitely not considering the fact that they've been using the rewind stuff more often and while 3 houses at least has a plot reason for why it exists and why only one character can use it, engage just had to go and destroy its role by saying that their version of it is a buyable item that everyone can use. It would be cool to have something like this popup in a new fire emblem game but that would also imply that they need to make a game that's good like 3 houses but not like engage. Or at least they would have to get their groove back.
you should've mentioned the Quadruple S skill from DM5
Honestly I just appreciate getting to reposition my units because I’m a klutz that misclicks a lot and gets people stuck in the wrong place and wrong weapons
Bro cooking like a 5 star rank
Ok but this could be the comeback of BEXP
RNG struggles aside, the amount of accidentally performing an action I didn't mean to (especially in FEH Arena or AR when I didn't mean to, such as making a unit wait instead of attack) would be my main reason to consider a turnwheel fair game.
I think it'd be fine if there's some sort of XP or other reward for NOT using the turnwheel (similar to LTC or saving all NPCs etc conditions), but I absolutely hate the idea of ranked battles for turnbased stuff. It makes more sense for action oriented, where you are in control of your unit attacking, dodging, blocking etc.
How about making you pay gold if you want to reset? Would propably not work since the feeling of loss of what you have outweighs the feeling of loss of what you could have.
So... just do what Tellius already did with bonus exp?
...So basically the bonus exp from Tellius?
As a casual fan who isn't super fond of the turnwheel, I feel there's a few things that could be done about it.
1) Have the option to turn it off, or lock it behind a difficulty (though that sounds bad, I'm sure there's even hard mode permadeath players that might want it once or twice a game)
2) Don't let it reroll RNG. Or at least don't let it reroll RNG until after a different outcome has been taken. For example, you place an attack that misses. Go back & do it again, it will always miss. Roll it back and instead attack a different enemy, then roll back to the first and attack then the RNG rerolls. I feel this makes it fairer in a way that most players won't realize it can still be cheesed.
3) Give it limited functionality that can be improved by some means. Let's say it only allows you to roll back 3 turns. Depending on things you do, you can gain the ability to roll back more turns, but that functionality gets used up once done & must be earned back. Perhaps you gain charges by doing exceptionally poorly, to help those who're REALLY struggling. Or, those who wish to use it can use some sort of currency to upgrade it over the course of the game.
Your idea sounds pretty interesting, and mine might not be the best- but I'm sure there's a way the turnwheel can be implemented that allows people who want/need it to use it without completely breaking the game, but still enforces the need to use legitimate strategy- regardless of player skill/difficulty/death setting. Just because I don't play with permadeath, that doesn't mean I don't want to engage with the game's other mechanics.
1) I feel this is the ideal and it doesn't have to compromise people wanting hardest and turnwheel.
For example: in Fates, you can choose Lunatic (hardest) and Casual mode (though not Phoenix). Just add more mode selctors ei. Mode, Difficulty, Rewind, etc.
Alternatively, the difference between Hard and Hardest, could be whether one has Rewinds and the other doesn't, everything else's the same, no one is losing on anything.
2) That's exactly how it works, I believe only SoV had something weird with witch AI that could alter RNG, but otherwise, you always have to do other things to rng abuse.
3) Most people use Rewinds for short term stuff already, thus isn't much of a change. It could be fine, if not a trivial change.
Isn't the turnwheel system optional in every game it's in (unless the MC dies)? Can't you guys just choose not to use it and/or manually reset the map instead?
This take is naive. The most important people turnwheel target are not "casuals" or "hardcores" but hardcores or completionists with casual skills.
Bonus exp fills a very similar purpose to this
I'm listening....
There is a game that has already done this: Tactics Ogre Reborn. Some fights can be difficult and there are the side objectives about not getting your unit KOed AND avoid using the rewind. If you do that, you either get really good equipment, lots of stat boosters or charms that allow you to change your unit's affinity, which can be huge for boss fights.
And FE should do the same: push people to play better. Because as it is, nothing forces me to endure an unlucky crit if I want to save more time. Seriously, who's gonna stop me? Kaga? The rabid fanboys that moan on youtube about a mechanic they have no power over?
So basically bonus exp.
They actually don't need to give the player anything for getting a good rank (it's just a cherry on top of what style ranking/combo counter real job). Style ranking serves the purpose of being the tutorial to player, you never realise this because a great tutorial is the one you don't notice. Style ranking encourages player to play the game in the intended way without handicap and limit possibilities like Doom does, it allows more freedom, and more accessable. Like in fighting game, a good combo counter is the one that gives you so much informations in real time.
- In DMC you get easy to understand D-SSS.
- In modern fighting game you get real time combo counter that tells you whether of not what you're doing is a real combo, and what type of combo.
- While in Bayonetta, it's hard to understand number that you'll only know whether you're doing good or not after the fight is finish.
Once the player learns how to play the game, style ranking is negligible.
The title is correct. If we just morph FE into real time combat, then the turnwheel is not going to be needed. *looks at the lame Three Houses vs the cool Three Hopes*
The problem with the wheel is that you can use it too many times per map. I would just make it cost an escalating amount of gold each time you used it.
I'd like to point out that if using the turnwheel undermines strategy, so does RNG (good or bad)
I do believe features that diminish the bullshit are a welcome addition, my problem with how Turnwheel is used (in Engage specifically, haven't played other titles with similar features) is that the developers balance the game for that feature, so the amount of bullshit increases to balance its existence out.
What I mean by Bullshit is those moments when your unit misses at 92% and gets hit by a 11% hit, ending your run. Even worse is when you get hit by low % chances several times in a row and the enemy crits at 2% to boot! Fire Emblem is largely reliant on RNG, so it's bound to be moments like that - and the more you play the more crap like that has a chance of happening -, but Engage is the FE title I have played with the MOST bullshit moments like that!
Seriously, my units are _constantly_ missing at above 80% chance while enemies are _constantly_ hitting me at bellow 30% (and even critting me _constantly_ at 8%)!
In order to balance the sheer number of enemy units, past games would have given your units higher luck and enemy units lower luck so hit rates would be turned in your favor, but since everything is RNG based and you are dealing with multiple foes, it all balances out. But engage puts enemies with similar hit rates to your units on top of them outnumbering in at a 10:1 rate in most maps!
Not only that, even during the earlier chapters the game will only teach you about the multiple boss health bars only AFTER you have hit the first boss with that mechanic! During my first time facing that boss I had made a supercool move to get Etie and Celine in range of the boss with Celica and Sigurd's emblem to one round him, and it was only after I had made the move that the game told me about this super important mechanic that invalidates my strategy! Needless to say, they both got killed the next turn and I had to rewind time to not use that strategy!
It feels like the game is made extra bullshitty to accommodate for the Turnwheel mechanic, as opposed to it being a quality of life insurance over bad luck.
And the solution is so simple: just make a Battle Save feature, like in the localized version of FE10, but make it limited! Say, 3 times per chapter and it costs a special currency you get for making good plays, like using effective weapons against certain units or rescuing green units in previous maps. Reward good plays with a way to save your battle states during a chapter, but don't go overboard with it!
Sorry, but if you had anything but 100% hit, that's your call, you wanted that. Engraves give more than enough to patch any decent attacker.
Got hit by a low percenter? Don't do avo tanks, they suck. If the fate of a unit was left to avoiding, that's The Schrodinger's unit, dead and alive until hit.
A low crit killed you? How?! Luck is OP in this game, it gives twice as many dodge as Skill gives crit. But also, Engraves give dodge, again, use them!
This game doesn't do cheapshots often, not outside of fog anyways. Sure, it's bad the tutorial shows up after killing Waluigi once, but this is a farcry in bullshiterry compared to what 3H does in maddening. If anything, this only shows why Rewinds should be completely removed, so the Devs have to be wary of never inconveniencing the player like that. Because they couldn't use Rewinds as a crutch to save their asses, they'd have to make sure the game is always fun.
I went back to play awakening recently and got a unit i really like killed via a 2 percent crit, and i remembered why i really liked the turnwheel. If i lose a unit because of gross miscalculation, thats, one thing that's my fault. I do not like losing a unit i had a high investment in to something out of my control.
I do think honestly the idea of extra stat boosters might be a little too much insensitive for the mid skill level players and can create frustrations especially if they're a speedwing or energy drop.
Use of the turnwheel isn't morally wrong, and the game shouldn't act like it is. Lame play is what the game should discourage. If you have a bad time grinding for 8 hours straight on the first map, and you put on a bad show for your 300 stream viewers, the game should penalize you for making the game look bad. The game should reward the awesome risky approach more.
I think that people take Turnwheel too seriously.
If casuals want to use it, let them. If a veteran doesn't want to use it, don't.
In the era of emulating fire emblem games, turnwheel is no different from using save states, except you have a charge limit. It's up to a person not to use savestates (if someone dies for me, I just reset the whole map). If the only thing stopping people from using a Turnwheel is a few stars, I don't think they care as much about undoing choices that much.
Not every game mechanic has to benefit all people. Turnwheel is given in the story but it's up to the player to use it. Byleth uses it in the story twice but you don't have to use them during maps. This mechanics was created specifically for the casuals. The same way how lunatic+ modes was introduce for masochists, it only benefits part of the fanbase.
This. People don't understand that the """hardcore""" experience can be replicated by not pressing the rewind button, it's that simple. The player has full control over the rewind, the game even gives you a game over option if your lord died
@@maverick5169hate to be that guy, but while sometimes the lord dying gives a game over (like in Echoes), other games like 3H will immediately have the turn wheel kick in if you hit a lose condition and have at least 1 charge. You could just burn the charges at the start of the map, but that can be very tedious.
@@shanegiorgio4713
Or you could soft reset when you get a game over, like you always do in every other game. My point still stands
@@shanegiorgio4713 then it would come back to player restraint again. Will you taint your divine pulse less run by caving in and using rewind? I didn't do ironman runs in fire emblem yet but from my experience in many, many pokemon nuzlockes it really comes down to the player whether they abide by the rules or not.
My thoughts on the matter are that it's optional so who cares it's like you can turn off permanent death and MOST people care so little about that personally I like turn wheel
While I do advocate for the turn wheel myself I think "Its optional" isn't really a great argument for the turnwheel as its inclusion is actively taken into consideration for the game design nowadays
Isn´t this solution not also a little troublesome? If you get high ranks which means you get high Ressources, you can buy stuff that makes your units even better so you can steamroll the next maps, which means high ranks again, which means you steamroll even further and get more high ranks and so on.
That’s only if the game gives out the super valuable stuff early on. Like if they gave out an S rank weapon that easily and arms scrolls then yeah this would be a bad use of the ranking system. But if you’re careful you can reserve gold for endgame and steamroll there
@@greatrieck In my opinion it would be the better way to give more controll to the player. Critchances are reduced by luck for example. Why not give clerics a staff (or spell) that raise the luck state. So if you don´t use it or waste it, it´s your fault, which feels much better then loosing charakters through RNG BS while you could do nothing against it and even the math said it was on your side. I mean we have the Killer weapons which does the opposite and raise your crit chances and some units depend on it.
I still like the idea of a ranking system, Advance Wars had this, and you could spend a lot of time retrying a map and get better results. Thats a long time motivator. But even in Advance Wars, the maps don´t take as long as Fire emblem´s AND you have not to fear of loosing your favorite units (or any of your guys). In games like Sonic Adventure 2 it is rare that a level took more then 10 Minutes to play. Thats not as time consuming then it would took to play a fire Emblem map again especialy if you consider that you can´t normaly replay a map if you not start a new game. I think that if the Player can see that he sucks after investing so much time and doing the math to save his guys, it would be really demotivating for them to see that all his tries and learning from errors just earn them a bad rank while sacrificing units just to end the map quicker and earn a higher rank could hurt you in the long run of 20+ maps. I think this is the reason why we don´t have seen a rank system after every map like we did in every Advance Wars game, which were developed by the same people.
Even if you grant rewards, they have to be better then the price you pay to get it. Any Jaigan unit can easily win the first few maps in a short period of time for example. But you pay for this in form of Exp for your other charakters and also in form of uses of the steel or silver weapons which Jaigan units wield at the start. It´s hard to balance this i think.
That would just mean that the "hardcore" fanbase will just reload the save instead of using the Turnwheel. Turnwheel is overall more of a QOL feature after all. Now if you want to really spice up the game, introduce the unit condition system ala X-Com where units get tired after going on the missions multiple times in a row. That would prevent players getting carried by OP units alone.
Thracia 776 had fatigue which was the same thing and one of the things people debate about.
Personally, don't really mind since stats are demphasized in the game as a whole in that game so having a rotating cast of units is way easier to come by compared to something like most modern FE games where the combination of smaller cast and higher stats means its difficult to replace someone.
Hey, uh, you ever played The Red Star for PS2 and i think PSP? It gave you points based on how you cleared the level. These points could be used to upgrade your character! The game was pretty damn hard, especially towards late game. So! If I got hit beyond 20hp, that the threshold for an S rank, at least in the first 3, 4, 5, can't remember how long i was that exacting for-I'd reset. The better you are in that game, the more upgrades you get, so the easier the game becomes for you. The worse you are, the harder it is for you. Doesn't this seem to defy conventional difficulty logic? Surely, one would present the most upgrades and easiness options to the lower skill player lowering their barrier of fun, or completion, whilst the higher skill player, well, they might not need all that, they might want a good challenge! So, what do i say? Hah! Rewards that make the game easier are not the answer! This is where we bring back Extras. You remember those? I do... Concept Art, Sound Test, Costumes! You see? Give that plunder to the hotshots who do challenge runs and get high ranks! I think that's a much more relevant reward to the extrinsic and video-gamey ranking system, too.
Hmmmm.... I wonder how good of an idea is this, so debate it in the comments but...
Rank-only accessible grinding maps
(Similar to the Tower of Valni from SS, so easy enemies, and free EXP in an otherwise no-grind map game)
You could even go a step further, and have a good map rank give 1 attempt to the same place, so that you could just go higher and higher instead of each being a brand new map (again, just like Tower of Valni)
I cringed so hard, not because the idea is bad but because I consider DMC 1 to have a serious problem with it's ranking system and that's the one I played most recently. The way to get really good times is to spam holy water from the shop. The way to afford holy water to spam is to get a really good time. It's much less interesting than playing the game.
I deal with the mechanic by playing casual
Just thought of this, what if Turn wheel is based on turn count? Rewinds reset the entire turn and for every tun rewound it is unavailable until the player reaches the same turn number.
As someone who likes the Turnwheel myself its not really something you have to use every map unless you kinda suck so isn't rewarding the player for not using it just actively making the game easier?
usually the people who complain about crits at the end of a map could’ve played better to avoid it… people act like they’re a undeniable law of fire emblem that can just happen to anybody no matter what. just no…
At least the turn wheel is optional unlike Pokemon
Pokemon locking its easy mode behind a second playthrough before deciding to lock the entire games from now on into easy mode was the decision of all time.
Fire Emblem's ranking system doesn't even make sense though. Are you going to spread out the exp just to get more stars? If a unit dies, do you really need the game to tell you that it is bad? I think it gamifies too much. Fire Emblem is one of the main games I can recall that is almost "anti-completionist". If a unit dies you can't go back to save them. If you add a ranking system, then a certain type of player might feel compelled to treat the game like more of a completionist-type game where everything needs to be perfect. It just ruins things for me, personally.
Obviously, the player can just do whatever, but it explicitly says "this is how you should play the game", which I think makes the game less enjoyable. There is a good variety of player expression, and this can come through in repeat playthroughs.
Valkiria Chronicles does Ranks and rewards, and yeah, I feel the psychological warfare at work. If I don't get A rank, I'll be a noob and the world will explode! Or at least that's how it feels!
Man shadows of valentia was sooo bad that I forgot it existed. Three Houses was sooo good while engage was just a thing.
Tbf most people reset the game anyway if their unit dies so there is no real difference if it exist or not
But they should lower the amount of rewinds that one can use
Fire emblem players, even casuals, have big fear of missing out on stuff, that's why every map is a rout map, every chest that gives a vulnerary in the final map has to be opened. I don't think this incentive goes in the right direction, but it's a good idea overall.