Poor old Devastator, similar to the Battle in many ways. Looked pretty good, flew well when first introduced, suffered in modern war and flown in to action by extremely brave men.
Difference is, the Royal Air Force didn't give the Battle ordnance that was prone to failure. And this failure in ordnance also affected the Devastator's successor the Avenger. Midway was a horrible end for the Devastator, but it was an equally horrendous debut for the Avenger, purely because of Naval Ordnance arrogance.
I think 'extremely brave' is an understatement. I don't have the words to describe men who knew they were flying in literal death traps, dropping torpedoes that had a massively high failure rate. Their sacrifices were not in vain, thankfully.
The commander of the Devastators in the Battle of Midway, John C. Waldron, was from the town I grew up in (Fort Pierre, South Dakota). The bridge across the Missouri River between it and the capital (Pierre) is named after him. It won't be standing for much longer, though, as a replacement is under construction at the time of this comment.
When I was a boy fifty years ago I built a TBD model. I thought the plane looked great with the extremely colorful paint scheme. It bet the poor bastards who were sacrified in attacks without aircover and malfunctionning torpedoes did not like those planes. They were extremely courageful guys and they deserve being remembered as the heroes that they were.
About twice as fast as a “stringbag”. It was not the TBD’s fault that they were sent against heavily defended enemy’s carriers in suicide missions. It’s like going to a gunfight armed with a pillow.
Lovely aeroplane, flown by American kamikaze against Akagi and Kaga at Midway. Their deaths did no damage to the Japanese, but the Devastators brought the Japanese air cover down from the clouds in their pursuit, which allowed the Dauntless dive bombers to bore in on the Japanese carriers.
It can be argued that the Devastator attack at Midway enabled the SBD attacks by drawing the Japanese fighters down low where they could not intercept the SBD's.
That’s a myth. When the SBDs arrived. The Zeroes were still shooting at the TBDs from Yorktown which were attacking Hiryu. Hiryu was off in the distance when the other three carriers were attacked. Even if the Zeroes were at altitude, they were in the wrong location.
@spudskie3907 The time between the end of the attacks by the TBDs on the carriers and the first attack of the dive bombers is about 20 minutes. More than enough time for the Japanese combat air patrolling to climb to the normal patrolling altitude. IIRC the reason behind there not being a combat air patrol up when the dive bombers arrived is that Nagumo had ordered them to land for refuelling and rearmament.
See Chris's channel Military Aviation History. He has a deep dive on the whole "Miricale at Midway". It was part luck and part monumental clusterf/_k. Some of the dive bombers never even found the Japanese carriers. Plus the attacks by the carrier squadrons were not the only attacks that day. Squadrons on Midway attacked with everything from TBF Avengers to B-17s and B-26s. None of which achieved anything besides causing the IJN to burn extra fuel and AV gas.
The Devastator actually did fairly well in its operational role, with the exception of Midway, for which it is forever remembered. They did not do well against Nagumo's Kido Butai. But then again, the British equivalent, the Swordfish, had even less success against Nagumo's forces. Two months earlier, on April 5, 1942, six Swordfish from Colombo attacked the Kido Butai. All six Swordfish were shot down by the Japanese, a 100% loss rate. The only thing that is generally remembered about the Devastator is the slaughter at Midway. The only things that are generally remembered about the Swordfish are Taranto and Bismark. The Devastator's accomplishments are largely forgotten, while the Swordfish's failures are largely forgotten.
Another aircraft was a similar victim of rapid advancement: the B-29. It went from the most advanced aircraft in the world in 1945 was considered to be hopelessly outmatched in the new jet-age as MiG-15s basically drove them from the skies. Well, daylight, anyway. The opinions of B-29 crews in Korea was vastly different than those in WW2.
The B29 wasn't that great in 1945. It's worth remembering that it was flying at a point that the Japanese air defences had been so degraded that it usually didn't need a fighter escort, and the Japanese rarely even tried to intercept them due to a lack of aircraft, pilots, and fuel. The situation in the Korean War was very different. The Communist forces had plenty of all three, and the MiG-15 was developed in large part to intercept bombers like the B-29. There were a number of other issues too. For example, the engine cooling wasn't sufficient and the task of setting the radiator cowlings was an art form. Too much towards closed, the engines would overheat and catch fire, too much towards open, and the drag would take the aircraft below stall speed. At altitude the difference between these two points could be minimal, or even such that the bombers had to drop altitude in order to avoid the stall or fire choice. It was the first bomber that could hit the Japanese mainland and return to friendly bases, but it was at the cutting edge of what piston driven aircraft were capable of and it was unreliable and flawed as a result.
From the book "The Big 'E'," comes a story of an incident that happened during the early months of the war. For most of December 1941 and January 1942, the USS Enterprise patrolled the ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. One of the common practices was to send out TBDs on patrol loaded with a torpedo, which could be used to quickly launch an attack on any Japanese ship they came upon as the radioman reported the sighting. But alas, TBDs would be recovered with the ordinance, assuming the plane had not attacked any unfortunate whale that the plane's crew had mistaken for a Japanese sub. (A few whales had met this fate.) On one such recovery of a still-armed TBD, a pilot landed a bit hard on the deck causing the torpedo to completely detach and start skidding down the flight deck. Then someone noticed that this errant torpedo's propeller had started spinning under power. No problem. That was until someone else realized that if the propellor was spinning under power, then the warhead was armed. So now there's an armed torpedo skidding down the flight deck, headed for the sea off the bow and possibly an escorting destroyer directly ahead of the carrier. Fortunately, a senior deck sailor managed to straddle the torpedo and somehow wrangle it to a stop. (Hopefully I've captured the essence of the story correctly as it's been a while since I've read the book.)
Would have been a dubious distinction... the Enterprise being the only carrier to launch a torpedo at its own escorts. Wonder how many times that sailor would say, 'Did I ever tell you about the time I grabbed a torpedo and wrestled it to a standstill?' 'Right... sure you did.'
Obsolete yes but at Midway the facts are that the slaughter of the TBDs is as follows the failure of Enterprise to get its attack off as it should have. 2. The fact that Mitscher and ring disobeyed their orders and sent Hornets planes on the flight to nowhere. Which led to Waldron engaging in munity and attacking the Japanese carriers WITHOUT fighter cover. As far as Yorktown's TBDs they attacked as part of a coordinated although somewhat clumsy attack as Yorktown's air group was the only one to get off a proper launch . Highly recommend watching the Unauthorized History of the Pacific war you tube video on Midway featuring Jon Parshal author of Shattered Sword for more detail on this battle.
I had the opportunity to meet Ensign George Gay at Oshkosh in the eighties and I purchased his book. I read the book last year. Being that he was the sole survivor of his squadron at Midway, he actually lived a sort of charmed life after Midway. The Devastator was an indication of how poorly equipped the United States was at the start of the war and how oblivious the military industrial complex was at the time. Sort of like Now.
Remember the Avenger was already entering combat service at the time of Midway. Combat debut actually. Design work on the Avenger actually started in 1939 iirc. From the time the TBD was designed to when the TBF was engine power in aviation engines, especially radials jumped a lot. More powerful engines means more useful load at higher speeds.
One thing to remember about defense contractors. They design to the percieved needs of the services. Part of the problem with cost overruns on military programs is constantly changing specifications coming out of the Pentagon. Especially for aircraft. But the Army can be at fault with their programs too. Plus in today's environment the US military is faced with two different problems. Possible combat against a Tier 1 opponent. While at the same time combat operations against NGO opponents practicing asymmetrical warfare. Personally I would prefer we were not involved if at all possible. Or our 'allies' would pick up some of the slack.
The Devastator was a weapon that was a victim to the ever increasing march of time. It's cutting edge concept was unfortunately lost to an age where countries entered the conflict in biplanes and exited on the cusp of the jet age. It was a testament to the courage of men who would lay down their lives for their country.
The Devastator was a weapon that was a victim to the ever increasing march of time. It's cutting edge concept was unfortunately lost to an age where countries entered the conflict in biplanes and exited on the cusp of the jet age. It was a testament to the courage of men who would lay down their lives for their country.
The Devastator was a weapon that was a victim to the ever increasing march of time. It's cutting edge concept was unfortunately lost to an age where countries entered the conflict in biplanes and exited on the cusp of the jet age. It was a testament to the courage of men who would lay down their lives for their country.
If the Pacific War had begun 3 years earlier, in December 1938, the TBD Devastator would not have had such a problem with Japanese fighters. Because the A6M2 Zero didn't exist at that time (the Zero's first flight was on 1 April 1939, and it entered service on 1 July 1940). Against the previous Japanese carrier fighter, the A5M 'Claude', the Devastator would have had a much better chance of survival, as the A5M was armed with only 2 rifle calibre machine guns. (Even in the Battle of Midway, a few Devastators were able to survive and return to their carrier after being hit by Zeros that had previously used up all of their 20 mm cannon ammunition, and only had their 7.7 mm machine guns left. The machine guns alone weren't always enough to down the TBD.)
There's an old movie called Wing and a Prayer, made during the war, starring Don Ameche and... believe it or not, Harry Morgan. It depicts the torpedo attack at Midway... with the torpedo planes(Avengers doubling for Devastators) attacking and sinking Japanese carriers. With few losses. Guess Hollywood didn't want the American public to know what REALLY happened to the torpedo planes.
I wonder how much better the TBD would have been if not for that teeny little engine in front. Diminishing returns aside (bigger engines being heavier engines), there must have been an alternative to that anemic 850hp snowblower motor.
Interestingly, the Helldiver replaced the Dauntless, yet was actually effective in combat. (also, if you watch the older Midway film with Charlton Heston, the Helldivers do double duty as Dauntlesses and Devastators.
Marauders and Avengers went on to be successful combat aircraft going forward from Midway. Given their more advanced designs, this comes as no surprise. The Devastator was pulled from frontline service immediately after Midway for very obvious reasons. Are you suggesting that the loss rate from a single battle where newer aircraft deployed in small numbers (and in the case of the B-26, being deployed in the role of a torpedo bomber which it was never designed to operate) versus an obsolete aircraft deployed in mass that suffered a slightly less loss rate actually means......what? I don't understand your point.
@@shannonterry4863 My point is simple--mere high loss rate during a single battle was not a valid reason for pulling the Devastator. Not often mentioned is that the Devastator was out of production since 1939 and less than 80 Devastators were operational at the end of May 1942. "Out of production" means spare parts were limited to stocks on hand (some lost when USS Lexington/CV-2 and USS Yorktown?CV-5 were sunk). Around three dozen TBD were still operational after the Battle of Midway and the first TBF Avengers had arrived on Oahu (the doomed TBF Avengers operating out of Midway were the first to arrive in Hawaii and were the only ones that managed to make it into battle). The TBD worked well enough in earlier battles but by 1940--two years before the Battle of Midway--the TBD was on its way out. It just took time for the TBF to be produced, crews trained on the type, and the Avengers deployed to the fighting fronts. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator There is a reference to the 1941 movie "Dive Bomber" that I recommend as a snapshot of the United States Navy and was released 30 August 1941, just three months before Pearl Harbor. Filming was March 1941 at NAS North Island and aboard the USS Enterprise/CV-6. The TBF firswt flew on 7 August 1941 and on 7 December 1941 the new Grumman plant opened up, witht he first shipment of 100 aircraft were sent to Pearl Harbor but they missed their ships by just this much!! The Devastators managed to preserve the reputation of the Avengers--not on purposed, but save it they did. The problem with the Devastator was lack of fighter protection. The Avengers proved as vulnerable. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_TBF_Avenger It is possible that massive Avenger losses would have tanked confidence in the new airplane--the air crew and maintenance guys would have had little time working with their planes before Midway.
Another factor the absolutely horrible detonator on the U.S. Torpedoes and the pettifog idiot at USN Department of Naval Ordinance. As to Midway one carrier took an hour to completely launch its combined Strike Force and Fighter Escort. There was more to the Miracle of Midway, the torpedo plane sacrifice is heroic, but Shattered Sword, the untold story of the Battle of Midway relates a theory that Mitsuo Fuchida, former strike leader of Kido Butai, lied continuously in his book Midway, the Battle that Doomed Japan. The central accusation against Fuchida was that at 10:20 Fuchida claimed four Japanese carriers were about to launch a massive counterstrike within minutes, when in fact no attack aircraft were on the decks of any of the four aircraft carriers. As the story goes, Fuchida not only lied that all four carriers were within minutes of attacking, but that this lie poisoned American perception of the battle of Midway for 50 years. The quote cited in proof of this claim is this one here, Preparations for a counter-strike against the enemy had continued on board our four carriers throughout the enemy torpedo attacks. One after another, planes were hoisted from the hangar and quickly arranged on the flight deck. There was no time to lose. At 1020 Admiral Nagumo gave the order to launch when ready. On Akagi’s flight deck all planes were in position with engines warming up. The big ship began turning into the wind. Within five minutes, all her planes would be launched. Five minutes! Who would have dreamed that the tide of battle would shift completely in that interval of time? . . . At 1024 the order to start launching came from the bridge by voicetube . . .and the first Zero fighter gathered speed and whizzed off the deck. At that instant a lookout screamed: “Hell-divers!” I looked up to see three black enemy planes plummeting toward our ship. Fuchida only references the Akagi, the armed and fueled could mean below deck… However when the earlier discovery of the carrier message was received, a prudent commander would have launched with the munitions for the Midway Strike. This occurred during The Battle of Leyte when Aircraft attacked the Center Force from the Jeep Carriers (Escort Carriers). The destroyer and destroyer escort attack bought valuable time, will aircraft primarily armed with bombs against ground forces, depth charge, and anti-submarine attacks, (some without any ammunition still buzzed the ships), produced the miracle and in the fog of war that DD and DE were cruisers, CVEs were Fleet Carriers. Of the Crew of the Johnston that survived in the water one reported that a IJN Sailor from a passing Japanese destroyer threw can food to the survivors.
The devastator was so bad that the British rejected it for inadequate navigation and observation facilities, not designed for spotter reconnaissance, too big for the British carriers and it was as vulnerable to gunfire as the Swordfish torpedo bombers were and was not much better performance wise compared to the Swordfish
To be honest? No country really had a good torpedo bomber. You could fundamentally switch out any of them and find the same faults. Britis,h American or Japanese. The whole story of bad Torpedoes just exacerbates the problems of this aircraft.
You're right, the nearest to a good torpedo bomber was a torpedo fighter, the RAF'S "Torbeau" variant of the Bristol Beaufighter. The Beaufort, the original torpedo bomber, was "not quite right" but a nice try at least (please be kind, I'm a bit fond of the Beaufort!).
I think torpedo planes could only be effective in some type of coordinated attack with dive bombers or fighter-bombers. They were just shot to pieces when trying to stage a lone attack. My .02...
The plane was not a bad design, it was just obsolete, by 1940, very useful as a training aircraft, gunnery trainer, pilot trainer, but in combat they were basically helpless, these planes were target practice for Japanese Anti Aircraft gunners, and in the case Enemy fighters got on them, they were doomed, they had no way to defend themselves, the planes had poor quality, armor, and carried very little ammunition for the few guns they carried, it was obvious by 1942 these obsolete planes had to be withdrawn from any combat operations, just a few enemy rounds, bullets hitting this aircraft could easily shoot it down, The planes while reliable, and easy to fly, were hopeless, and the design could not be modified to any extent, to better the plane. The Japanese shot TBDs down in large numbers, Enemy pilots commented how poorly these planes performed, and were very easy to shoot down, several countries looked at the TBD but no sales were made to any country, this video does not talk about the numbers of TBDs that were used well after WW2 as trainer's...
![VENEZUELA vs. ARGENTINA [1-1] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 9](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/SJfoPdeOPCQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Poor old Devastator, similar to the Battle in many ways. Looked pretty good, flew well when first introduced, suffered in modern war and flown in to action by extremely brave men.
Difference is, the Royal Air Force didn't give the Battle ordnance that was prone to failure. And this failure in ordnance also affected the Devastator's successor the Avenger. Midway was a horrible end for the Devastator, but it was an equally horrendous debut for the Avenger, purely because of Naval Ordnance arrogance.
I think 'extremely brave' is an understatement. I don't have the words to describe men who knew they were flying in literal death traps, dropping torpedoes that had a massively high failure rate. Their sacrifices were not in vain, thankfully.
Great looking plane!
The commander of the Devastators in the Battle of Midway, John C. Waldron, was from the town I grew up in (Fort Pierre, South Dakota). The bridge across the Missouri River between it and the capital (Pierre) is named after him. It won't be standing for much longer, though, as a replacement is under construction at the time of this comment.
They'd better keep his name for the replacement. It'll be a crime if they don't.
Donald Trump bridge? 😂😂😂
@@fatdad64able Knowing the locals, I would not be surprised. The Dakotas are the two most heavily Republican states in the US.
When I was a boy fifty years ago I built a TBD model. I thought the plane looked great with the extremely colorful paint scheme. It bet the poor bastards who were sacrified in attacks without aircover and malfunctionning torpedoes did not like those planes. They were extremely courageful guys and they deserve being remembered as the heroes that they were.
Well said.
When I see or hear of the Devastators . I think of the brave souls of Torpedo 8. R.I.P. 🙏
Now we need a SBD Dauntless video.
About twice as fast as a “stringbag”. It was not the TBD’s fault that they were sent against heavily defended enemy’s carriers in suicide missions. It’s like going to a gunfight armed with a pillow.
not really as the British didn't consider it much better than the Swordfish
129 aircraft was not a surprising production run during the isolationist thirties.
Brave dudes back then. Nice video
Lovely aeroplane, flown by American kamikaze against Akagi and Kaga at Midway. Their deaths did no damage to the Japanese, but the Devastators brought the Japanese air cover down from the clouds in their pursuit, which allowed the Dauntless dive bombers to bore in on the Japanese carriers.
It can be argued that the Devastator attack at Midway enabled the SBD attacks by drawing the Japanese fighters down low where they could not intercept the SBD's.
That’s a myth. When the SBDs arrived. The Zeroes were still shooting at the TBDs from Yorktown which were attacking Hiryu. Hiryu was off in the distance when the other three carriers were attacked. Even if the Zeroes were at altitude, they were in the wrong location.
Man spammed 14 comments
@@Jump-Shack I have no idea how that happened!
@spudskie3907 The time between the end of the attacks by the TBDs on the carriers and the first attack of the dive bombers is about 20 minutes. More than enough time for the Japanese combat air patrolling to climb to the normal patrolling altitude. IIRC the reason behind there not being a combat air patrol up when the dive bombers arrived is that Nagumo had ordered them to land for refuelling and rearmament.
See Chris's channel Military Aviation History. He has a deep dive on the whole "Miricale at Midway". It was part luck and part monumental clusterf/_k. Some of the dive bombers never even found the Japanese carriers. Plus the attacks by the carrier squadrons were not the only attacks that day. Squadrons on Midway attacked with everything from TBF Avengers to B-17s and B-26s. None of which achieved anything besides causing the IJN to burn extra fuel and AV gas.
The Devastator actually did fairly well in its operational role, with the exception of Midway, for which it is forever remembered. They did not do well against Nagumo's Kido Butai. But then again, the British equivalent, the Swordfish, had even less success against Nagumo's forces. Two months earlier, on April 5, 1942, six Swordfish from Colombo attacked the Kido Butai. All six Swordfish were shot down by the Japanese, a 100% loss rate.
The only thing that is generally remembered about the Devastator is the slaughter at Midway. The only things that are generally remembered about the Swordfish are Taranto and Bismark. The Devastator's accomplishments are largely forgotten, while the Swordfish's failures are largely forgotten.
Except the British were not attack when they had been trying to which is at night where the IJN is deficient
Can you do a video on the complete fiasco that was the Mark 14 torpedo?
Another aircraft was a similar victim of rapid advancement: the B-29. It went from the most advanced aircraft in the world in 1945 was considered to be hopelessly outmatched in the new jet-age as MiG-15s basically drove them from the skies. Well, daylight, anyway. The opinions of B-29 crews in Korea was vastly different than those in WW2.
THAT would be a great video, too!
The B29 wasn't that great in 1945. It's worth remembering that it was flying at a point that the Japanese air defences had been so degraded that it usually didn't need a fighter escort, and the Japanese rarely even tried to intercept them due to a lack of aircraft, pilots, and fuel. The situation in the Korean War was very different. The Communist forces had plenty of all three, and the MiG-15 was developed in large part to intercept bombers like the B-29.
There were a number of other issues too. For example, the engine cooling wasn't sufficient and the task of setting the radiator cowlings was an art form. Too much towards closed, the engines would overheat and catch fire, too much towards open, and the drag would take the aircraft below stall speed. At altitude the difference between these two points could be minimal, or even such that the bombers had to drop altitude in order to avoid the stall or fire choice.
It was the first bomber that could hit the Japanese mainland and return to friendly bases, but it was at the cutting edge of what piston driven aircraft were capable of and it was unreliable and flawed as a result.
From the book "The Big 'E'," comes a story of an incident that happened during the early months of the war. For most of December 1941 and January 1942, the USS Enterprise patrolled the ocean around the Hawaiian Islands. One of the common practices was to send out TBDs on patrol loaded with a torpedo, which could be used to quickly launch an attack on any Japanese ship they came upon as the radioman reported the sighting. But alas, TBDs would be recovered with the ordinance, assuming the plane had not attacked any unfortunate whale that the plane's crew had mistaken for a Japanese sub. (A few whales had met this fate.) On one such recovery of a still-armed TBD, a pilot landed a bit hard on the deck causing the torpedo to completely detach and start skidding down the flight deck. Then someone noticed that this errant torpedo's propeller had started spinning under power. No problem. That was until someone else realized that if the propellor was spinning under power, then the warhead was armed. So now there's an armed torpedo skidding down the flight deck, headed for the sea off the bow and possibly an escorting destroyer directly ahead of the carrier. Fortunately, a senior deck sailor managed to straddle the torpedo and somehow wrangle it to a stop. (Hopefully I've captured the essence of the story correctly as it's been a while since I've read the book.)
Would have been a dubious distinction... the Enterprise being the only carrier to launch a torpedo at its own escorts.
Wonder how many times that sailor would say, 'Did I ever tell you about the time I grabbed a torpedo and wrestled it to a standstill?' 'Right... sure you did.'
I do love the War Thunder background music XD
Obsolete yes but at Midway the facts are that the slaughter of the TBDs is as follows the failure of Enterprise to get its attack off as it should have. 2. The fact that Mitscher and ring disobeyed their orders and sent Hornets planes on the flight to nowhere. Which led to Waldron engaging in munity and attacking the Japanese carriers WITHOUT fighter cover. As far as Yorktown's TBDs they attacked as part of a coordinated although somewhat clumsy attack as Yorktown's air group was the only one to get off a proper launch . Highly recommend watching the Unauthorized History of the Pacific war you tube video on Midway featuring Jon Parshal author of Shattered Sword for more detail on this battle.
I had the opportunity to meet Ensign George Gay at Oshkosh in the eighties and I purchased his book. I read the book last year. Being that he was the sole survivor of his squadron at Midway, he actually lived a sort of charmed life after Midway. The Devastator was an indication of how poorly equipped the United States was at the start of the war and how oblivious the military industrial complex was at the time. Sort of like Now.
Remember the Avenger was already entering combat service at the time of Midway. Combat debut actually. Design work on the Avenger actually started in 1939 iirc. From the time the TBD was designed to when the TBF was engine power in aviation engines, especially radials jumped a lot. More powerful engines means more useful load at higher speeds.
One thing to remember about defense contractors. They design to the percieved needs of the services. Part of the problem with cost overruns on military programs is constantly changing specifications coming out of the Pentagon. Especially for aircraft. But the Army can be at fault with their programs too. Plus in today's environment the US military is faced with two different problems. Possible combat against a Tier 1 opponent. While at the same time combat operations against NGO opponents practicing asymmetrical warfare. Personally I would prefer we were not involved if at all possible. Or our 'allies' would pick up some of the slack.
The Devastator was a weapon that was a victim to the ever increasing march of time. It's cutting edge concept was unfortunately lost to an age where countries entered the conflict in biplanes and exited on the cusp of the jet age. It was a testament to the courage of men who would lay down their lives for their country.
The Devastator was a weapon that was a victim to the ever increasing march of time. It's cutting edge concept was unfortunately lost to an age where countries entered the conflict in biplanes and exited on the cusp of the jet age. It was a testament to the courage of men who would lay down their lives for their country.
The Devastator was a weapon that was a victim to the ever increasing march of time. It's cutting edge concept was unfortunately lost to an age where countries entered the conflict in biplanes and exited on the cusp of the jet age. It was a testament to the courage of men who would lay down their lives for their country.
"Wind indicators", another name of affection from it crews
If the Pacific War had begun 3 years earlier, in December 1938, the TBD Devastator would not have had such a problem with Japanese fighters. Because the A6M2 Zero didn't exist at that time (the Zero's first flight was on 1 April 1939, and it entered service on 1 July 1940).
Against the previous Japanese carrier fighter, the A5M 'Claude', the Devastator would have had a much better chance of survival, as the A5M was armed with only 2 rifle calibre machine guns.
(Even in the Battle of Midway, a few Devastators were able to survive and return to their carrier after being hit by Zeros that had previously used up all of their 20 mm cannon ammunition, and only had their 7.7 mm machine guns left. The machine guns alone weren't always enough to down the TBD.)
Im pretty sure the devastator had a few impacts on future tech incorporated into newer airplanes , including the TBM
You got this right.
"timing is Everything, in an Act" The TBD was the Clown just B4 the Show, that set that Stage Afire.
There's an old movie called Wing and a Prayer, made during the war, starring Don Ameche and... believe it or not, Harry Morgan. It depicts the torpedo attack at Midway... with the torpedo planes(Avengers doubling for Devastators) attacking and sinking Japanese carriers. With few losses. Guess Hollywood didn't want the American public to know what REALLY happened to the torpedo planes.
I wonder how much better the TBD would have been if not for that teeny little engine in front. Diminishing returns aside (bigger engines being heavier engines), there must have been an alternative to that anemic 850hp snowblower motor.
We need more things of how a how dated or bad plane turned out the winner vs newer planes or smth
when are you gonna do anonther train story like how a scarapyard in barry saved lots of locomotives
Interestingly, the Helldiver replaced the Dauntless, yet was actually effective in combat. (also, if you watch the older Midway film with Charlton Heston, the Helldivers do double duty as Dauntlesses and Devastators.
at Midway a greater percentage of Devastators remained flyable than did the Marauders and Avengers.
Marauders and Avengers went on to be successful combat aircraft going forward from Midway. Given their more advanced designs, this comes as no surprise. The Devastator was pulled from frontline service immediately after Midway for very obvious reasons.
Are you suggesting that the loss rate from a single battle where newer aircraft deployed in small numbers (and in the case of the B-26, being deployed in the role of a torpedo bomber which it was never designed to operate) versus an obsolete aircraft deployed in mass that suffered a slightly less loss rate actually means......what?
I don't understand your point.
@@shannonterry4863 My point is simple--mere high loss rate during a single battle was not a valid reason for pulling the Devastator. Not often mentioned is that the Devastator was out of production since 1939 and less than 80 Devastators were operational at the end of May 1942. "Out of production" means spare parts were limited to stocks on hand (some lost when USS Lexington/CV-2 and USS Yorktown?CV-5 were sunk). Around three dozen TBD were still operational after the Battle of Midway and the first TBF Avengers had arrived on Oahu (the doomed TBF Avengers operating out of Midway were the first to arrive in Hawaii and were the only ones that managed to make it into battle). The TBD worked well enough in earlier battles but by 1940--two years before the Battle of Midway--the TBD was on its way out. It just took time for the TBF to be produced, crews trained on the type, and the Avengers deployed to the fighting fronts.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_TBD_Devastator
There is a reference to the 1941 movie "Dive Bomber" that I recommend as a snapshot of the United States Navy and was released 30 August 1941, just three months before Pearl Harbor. Filming was March 1941 at NAS North Island and aboard the USS Enterprise/CV-6.
The TBF firswt flew on 7 August 1941 and on 7 December 1941 the new Grumman plant opened up, witht he first shipment of 100 aircraft were sent to Pearl Harbor but they missed their ships by just this much!! The Devastators managed to preserve the reputation of the Avengers--not on purposed, but save it they did. The problem with the Devastator was lack of fighter protection. The Avengers proved as vulnerable.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_TBF_Avenger
It is possible that massive Avenger losses would have tanked confidence in the new airplane--the air crew and maintenance guys would have had little time working with their planes before Midway.
I wonder what the pilots and aircrew who flew in these planes thought of them?
Great looking plane, too bad it got outdated so quickly. Aviation moved back then like tech does today.
Another factor the absolutely horrible detonator on the U.S. Torpedoes and the pettifog idiot at USN Department of Naval Ordinance. As to Midway one carrier took an hour to completely launch its combined Strike Force and Fighter Escort. There was more to the Miracle of Midway, the torpedo plane sacrifice is heroic, but Shattered Sword, the untold story of the Battle of Midway relates a theory that Mitsuo Fuchida, former strike leader of Kido Butai, lied continuously in his book Midway, the Battle that Doomed Japan. The central accusation against Fuchida was that at 10:20 Fuchida claimed four Japanese carriers were about to launch a massive counterstrike within minutes, when in fact no attack aircraft were on the decks of any of the four aircraft carriers. As the story goes, Fuchida not only lied that all four carriers were within minutes of attacking, but that this lie poisoned American perception of the battle of Midway for 50 years. The quote cited in proof of this claim is this one here,
Preparations for a counter-strike against the enemy had continued on board our four carriers throughout the enemy torpedo attacks. One after another, planes were hoisted from the hangar and quickly arranged on the flight deck. There was no time to lose. At 1020 Admiral Nagumo gave the order to launch when ready. On Akagi’s flight deck all planes were in position with engines warming up. The big ship began turning into the wind. Within five minutes, all her planes would be launched. Five minutes! Who would have dreamed that the tide of battle would shift completely in that interval of time? . . . At 1024 the order to start launching came from the bridge by voicetube . . .and the first Zero fighter gathered speed and whizzed off the deck. At that instant a lookout screamed: “Hell-divers!” I looked up to see three black enemy planes plummeting toward our ship.
Fuchida only references the Akagi, the armed and fueled could mean below deck…
However when the earlier discovery of the carrier message was received, a prudent commander would have launched with the munitions for the Midway Strike.
This occurred during The Battle of Leyte when Aircraft attacked the Center Force from the Jeep Carriers (Escort Carriers). The destroyer and destroyer escort attack bought valuable time, will aircraft primarily armed with bombs against ground forces, depth charge, and anti-submarine attacks, (some without any ammunition still buzzed the ships), produced the miracle and in the fog of war that DD and DE were cruisers, CVEs were Fleet Carriers. Of the Crew of the Johnston that survived in the water one reported that a IJN Sailor from a passing Japanese destroyer threw can food to the survivors.
The devastator was so bad that the British rejected it for inadequate navigation and observation facilities, not designed for spotter reconnaissance, too big for the British carriers and it was as vulnerable to gunfire as the Swordfish torpedo bombers were and was not much better performance wise compared to the Swordfish
By any chance was this plane painted bright green with purple accents?
If they would have had coordinated fighter escort at Midway the huge losses might not have happened.
.3"= 30 cal
.5"= 50 cal
Reply just to say: “Good, I’m glad I wasn’t the first to catch that.”
To be honest? No country really had a good torpedo bomber. You could fundamentally switch out any of them and find the same faults. Britis,h American or Japanese. The whole story of bad Torpedoes just exacerbates the problems of this aircraft.
You're right, the nearest to a good torpedo bomber was a torpedo fighter, the RAF'S "Torbeau" variant of the Bristol Beaufighter. The Beaufort, the original torpedo bomber, was "not quite right" but a nice try at least (please be kind, I'm a bit fond of the Beaufort!).
I think torpedo planes could only be effective in some type of coordinated attack with dive bombers or fighter-bombers. They were just shot to pieces when trying to stage a lone attack. My .02...
Meanwhile in warthunder. Drops naval mines on tanks.
Hey, whatever works.
what can I say they work good.@@HistoryintheDark
The burro of aeronautics? OK......
January 2023?
The plane was not a bad design, it was just obsolete, by 1940, very useful as a training aircraft, gunnery trainer, pilot trainer, but in combat they were basically helpless, these planes were target practice for Japanese Anti Aircraft gunners, and in the case Enemy fighters got on them, they were doomed, they had no way to defend themselves, the planes had poor quality, armor, and carried very little ammunition for the few guns they carried, it was obvious by 1942 these obsolete planes had to be withdrawn from any combat operations, just a few enemy rounds, bullets hitting this aircraft could easily shoot it down, The planes while reliable, and easy to fly, were hopeless, and the design could not be modified to any extent, to better the plane. The Japanese shot TBDs down in large numbers, Enemy pilots commented how poorly these planes performed, and were very easy to shoot down, several countries looked at the TBD but no sales were made to any country, this video does not talk about the numbers of TBDs that were used well after WW2 as trainer's...