Dear Clients, Photographers deserve FAIR PAY and...
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2024
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In this episode of the Picture This! Photography podcast, Tony and Chelsea Northrup discuss the misunderstandings clients have that stress out photographers: editing our photos, asking for discounts on already underpriced shoots, wanting all of the raw photos, thinking the camera does all of the work, and more.
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If you hire a wildlife photographer for your wedding don't be surprised if you cant find them. They arrived at the destination at 3am and set up a tent behind the altar and laid low to not scare the guests
I thought I saw that bush moving during the vows.
@@gyozakeynsianism ant the reflection of that 100mm front element of the 600m lens
🤣😂
Combat photographers are worse. I would imagine that in the US, in particular, it would be quite disconcerting to see the wedding photographer wearing a flak jacket and helmet, and diving for cover between the pews... {:-)
And sometimes theyll still be there spotting for extra miracle until the next day
"Wow! You have a really nice camera!"
"Thanks! *I taught it everything it knows!* "
Love it... I just put in on my "things to say" arsenal
Would be good on a T shirt :)
Omg ….😂 yes perfect comeback. But it’s true. The camera is worthless without a skill photographer
I'd say that it's nice on its good days. But when my camera is in a bad mood, look out!
“A photographer went to a socialite party in New York. As he entered the front door, the host said
‘I love your pictures - they’re wonderful; you must have a fantastic camera..
He said nothing until dinner was finished, then:
‘That was a wonderful dinner; you must have a terrific Stove.'”
Sam Haskins
It was a great stove. 30fps blackout-free shooting uncompressed RAW.
Unfortunately, the joke doesn't hold any longer. It used to be that cameras were unforgiving. Make a mistake, and that's it. The exposure was wrong. You didn't focus properly cause the viewfinder was tiny. You didn't frame it correctly and you couldn't check it cause it's film. You accidentally exposed your film to light and all those photos are gone forever. A few decades ago mistakes were brutally punished. These days the cameras offer a lot of assistance to photographers. While it doesn't really matter what camera you have when you take average photos, when you're doing a professional photoshoot the camera does matter. I can get great vacation photos with a small point and shoot. But show up to a wedding with that and see how it goes.
So yes, having a fantastic camera does help, just like having a terrific stove helps with cooking. Just try and bake anything with an uneven oven and see how far you get.
I've had this, went hiking and got into some real trouble, but the weather effects were very dramatic. Showed people my photos, "you have a great camera"... Yes you turd... yes I do...
@@CristiNeagu There is a constituency that believe that having a great camera makes a great photographer: it is, after all the basis of GAS and a great help for the marketing people in manufacturers. A great camera with the latest tech will not make a mediocre photographer a good photographer, but it will assist a good photographer to make the most of their skills. I have shot, and still use, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Sony brands. I have shot everything form cell phones to medium format, film and digital. While I have the latest gear, I have shot, and still do shoot with digital cameras that are over 20 years old - and get great results. At no time have I ever felt held back by my gear, more that I have been held back by my ability to get the most out of what I have. I find no one brand dramatically superior to another: at this level they are ALL great cameras, the rest is up to the user. Technique will always outlast tech...
The host: I don't even have a stove? The catering was awesome though if that's what you're saying, I totally agree..
As a fine artist, I can really relate to your struggle with clients/collectors. I can't tell you how many times I've had a collector look at one of my paintings, go in closer to see the price, pause, and then ask me "How long did it take you to paint this picture" (knowing they're trying to figure out how much I make an hour). I always ask them a question back that makes my point, "do you mean how long did it take me to paint THIS painting, or how long did it take for me to be ABLE to paint THIS painting"? There's always an aha moment of understanding that flashes across their face.
God forbid someone would actually dare to be curious about something...
For everything, every job you need talent, experience and education. Normally if the job required lots of education, lots of experience/training and talent it is well paid but in most cases still charged by the hour. Why would this be different for fine artists?
@@wvanhees86 Because two different caliber of artists can work on a painting for the same number of hours and one painting will be infinitely better than the other. You're not only paying for their time, but the talent that's been developed over years of training. Exactly like the point Tony and Chelsea are making in this video. It's not the camera or the brushes, it's not the amount of time you spend, but it's the artist/photographer with the vision and experience that makes something truly special. In addition to that, there's the cost of a museum quality frame that's included in the price of my work, which can be $1,000-$1,500 dollars, as well as the commission that gets paid to the gallery... usually 50%. There are the shipping costs to get the painting to the gallery, which can easily be $500 on a medium/large painting. Not to mention the cost of supplies such as good quality oil paints and Belgium linen that will stand the test of time. Btw, there are plenty of jobs that are paid by the job and not the hour. Designers and Illustrators for instance. Even hairdressers...
@@Robban.D.Jonsson. Wow. Just wow.
@@Robban.D.Jonsson. They're not being curious, they're doubting the painting is worth the price tagged on it.
I've noticed something with people: the more a tool is complex the more people tend to think that it's the actual tool that does the job and not the person behind it. I do CG animation and people think I just need to push a button and the computer does all the animation... while nobody believes a pencil creates a drawing...
I feel your pain! I've been doing broadcast animations and graphics on dedicated equipment and people will come in and say "hey, I want to do some of my own stuff over the weekend when you're gone. What button do I push?"
Of course, I would like to respond "They pay me $1 to push the button, $1,000 for knowing which one to push!"
I had some of my favourite kids pics on display at my office that I shot on my camera. This client repeatedly remarked how lovely they were and asked me to photograph her wedding. I said no. She persisted. I googled “should I shoot a friends wedding” and was killing myself laughing when the first response google came back with was “No!” I listened to google.
Thank you guys for this great video. I've been shooting professionally for 26 years. I still get a client who puts me HANDCUFFS and still insists on an amazing result. I tell them "I am not the photographer for you" and send them elsewhere. ITS NOT WORTH THE MONEY.
I’m an excellent photographer, and photography is my passion and my way of escaping from stress. I would never involve business in my photography or sell a picture. I have had many people ask me if they could buy one of my pictures and I always say “No, but I will send you a high resolution version of the photograph for free”. For me, as soon as I make my photography into a business or a job it would start causing me stress instead of relieving my stress.
it is not a easy Journey, I decided to start working in my photography business, in the beginning of last year, great timing right?, well, I did two things last year a Senior photoshoot in June and then in October a presentation of the baby of the church, but both of them were as a favor to my second family, so not $$$. I am still trying to get some clients, but no much luck
Im the same way with video.
This is a great video but you have to address the elephant in the room. Digital photography, and smart phones in particular, have devaluated (unfairly) photography as a calling in general. I shot film for over 10 years. I was offered a job to shoot a Seagrams calendar in the late 90s and the price of $50,000 was bandied about as pay for the job. That's because back then not just anyone could take a good picture. You needed to know how to use a light meter, push/pull film, use an NPC Polaroid Back, etc. Now, people look at an LCD screen and say "Yeah, that looks about right" and it's a done deal. I'm not sure it's ever going to go back to what it was, sadly.
More people can take great photos that customers are happy with. That's a good thing for the photography market overall. Photography as a job is more accessible than ever. It's not great for photographers, though. As with the music business, it's feast or famine. You have to stick out or you're just another guy with a guitar -- since anyone can buy a guitar.
Do you want your house built with fully with hand tools? Technology changes. And photos have potential to be better now. Your photos are better with having less to think about.
That’s not completely right, because you have to spend as much time in digital post process as in the dark room before, not to mention the knowledge you have to have.
Please don't blame Digital Photography... those digital tools we have right now are way much mure specialized add a proof of that is that some old school photographers still struggle to manage Lightroom-Photoshop-Mass Storage... so blame the smart phones and the bad taste of cheap clients... But we all photographers must charge the right price and $100 is defiantly not the right price.
There are countless photographers making a fortune off their craft. Countless. Just because basic skills such as using a light meter (I use one with digital), pushing/pulling film, "etc" are no longer a prerequisite to producing an image does not mean skilled, impactful photography isn't still highly sought after. Let's face it: your photos are probably absolute s*t, two centuries of shooting or not. You are not the "expert" you think you are.
My own horror story:
Some years ago, I was asked by a dear friend to shoot the wedding of a friend of theirs (whom I didn't know) as they were absolutely penniless. It was going to be "very casual" & on a shoestring budget, so could I do it for free. For their sake I accepted and asked for the time & location of the event. I recon'd the site, decide on my strategy & gear choices. It was way out of town (over an hour each way) in a historical reserve & at mid-day: in the middle of summer!
I took 3 cameras, each with a lens: one I used to video the actual ceremony. I was then told that a "professional photographer" (I had been working for 35 years) was going to be shooting too, & could I make sure not to get in their way.
The person in question arrived with a consumer camera & a kit 18-55mm lens - it turned out they were at college, studying photography. They proceeded to line up the party in full sun, - the contrast and shadows were brutal - so that everyone was squinting, had black eye shadows or was wearing a hat or sun glasses . I persuaded the party to hold the actual ceremony under a beautiful set of trees, providing a soft light that made my DR much easier to deal with & their eyes were actually open.
After videoing the ceremony (during which the 'pro' repeatedly walked in front of the video camera), I got the party to stay in the shade using various poses. Eventually, it came to an end & the party went off to a restaurant (to which I was not invited to attend or shoot). The parting shot was: could they have the images to download the next day - they didn't want prints.
I went back & worked until 2:30am to process everything & make sure the photos were available in hi-res, & low-res for posting, & the video was processed properly. I posted the images on a MS OneDrive & emailed a link to them, advising the images would be available for a month, after which they would be deleted. Getting no response, I emailed twice more & left voice messages to ask if they were happy with the images & to confirm I would dispose of the images I had limited storage space. No response.
Five weeks later, a week after I had deleted the files, I got an email asking for the images. I explained they had been contacted repeatedly, (they apparently got distracted), & asked what happened to their main photographer's images - apparently they had 'technical issues' and had no shots. I reworked what I had left on the cards,(but no video) and sent them off. I got a brief thank you.
Never again..
They ask you to do it for free then hire a "professional" anyway? What an insult!
That sounds like my nightmares nightmare
Why doesn't this sort of behaviour towards photographers suprise me.
Wow. That is an absolute shocker. I’m just an amateur who has done a couple of weddings as a favour to friends. I will never do it again, because of the treatment I received from some wedding guests. My wedding photography skills were also inadequate. Hiring a professional and paying properly are absolutely the standard we should all adhere to.
@@swistedfilms In fact they were not a professional. It was a student in her second semester of study at a local college - she admitted she had never shot a wedding and asked me some questions on how to use her camera... Yes, I was insulted, but I am also a pro and I had committed to do the job and I did it, despite it all.
I’ve renewed my interest in photography as a hobby since my retirement. Photography, in my view, IS a form of art that HAS been ‘cheapened’ to a great degree by cell phones and digital technology which makes it too easy to mass produce poorly conceived images. At my age, I will never consider becoming a professional, but have gained interest in learning the skill sets (ongoing) that your publications help teach me about how to make ART (eventually) that others will take notice of and enjoy. This video clearly demonstrates why consumers need to watch it as a prerequisite to considering a professional photo shoot. Well done!! Thanks, C&T.
Listening to this, similar issues with my gardening business. The most important thing I have learned is to value my work and skill, price accordingly, and do not take clients who don't appreciate or understand the skill and time that goes into creating a successful perennial garden.
The way I like to look at it is you and the client are both responsible for a great photo. You both provide the time, effort, and resources. Lots of people think that all the work falls on the photographer and that's not always true. The client needs to has the right perspective of you and your work as well as the process. You need to make sure to filter your clients well to find the ones that try to help you make the work easier and better rather than work against you. It all starts from your first impressions with them.
Was sacked off by a company recently who told me they could get their own camera for what I charge :) happening to us all by the sound of it!
Haha at that point just wait and see what they post on their website. That's equivalent of a woodworker saying the stuff at the store is too expensive so they'll just grow their own trees
they could tho, nowadays photographers aren’t needed.
@@Archonsx they are for companies. Unless you believe the CEO has the time to be shooting their own content 🤔
@@Archonsx yes, there are still needed, and you missed the point of this video completely
I’m into Airbnb, and I take my own photos as a professional photographer and now everyone wants me to do theirs . The problem is that they only want to pay $75 -$125…These people are paying their cleaners that A DAY!! Why would you pay your photographer that and your business literally relies on pictures smh ..
Because the value added by your photos over them using their own photos does not justify the price.
A cleaner works way harder than any photographer sorry.
@@CristiNeagu on Airbnb ? Your photos are everything ! But that’s exactly how they think that’s why they always looking for a photographer I guess 😂😂😂
@@thebigkiwikahuna depends , you can say the same about a realtor. This isn’t about how physically hard one works but the worth of the skill itself …cleaning and photography are 2 of the biggest things on Airbnb …
@@thebigkiwikahuna HAHAHAHAHAHAA are you a photographer? Cleaners work hard yes but it’s a low skill job, hence the word skill. The biggest thing I value in a cleaner is trust worthiness. Photographers have to cultivate a skill and spend 3 times the work on something then what they are getting paid maybe making minimum wage by the end of it until they are pro
Demand determines your worth. Not your talent. This is the single biggest misunderstanding for entrepreneurs in every field.
I literally lost out on a possible wedding client who was trying to book a photographer last minute on THE WEEK OF THEIR WEDDING! They were referred to my by one of my other photographer friends and when they asked for a price I quoted them $900 for just photos and $1,200 for photos and video (on the very low end when it comes to wedding photographers/videographers because I just started getting into weddings). They said that was “way out of their price range” and they ended up hiring one of their cousins who had a camera for $500. Like people always want the best shit for the cheapest price and it really grinds my gears cause they have NO IDEA how much work goes into a shoot. ESPECIALLY a wedding shoot. You’re there ALL day, have to deal with a hundred family members, take hundreds of photos of the family in a hundred different variations, not including all the time it takes to prep your gear/how much it costs. Then all the hours of editing afterwards. $500??? Are you kidding me?!
How many times will they actually WATCH their wedding video?
@@AbieWriter doesn’t matter to me how many times they watch it. But it still takes hours of work and my time to create it. But as they say you get what you pay for.
I have huge sympathy with the theme of this video. It is not unique to wedding photographers, however. Back in 2013 the Chicago Sun-Times laid of its entire 28-member photographic staff, and since then it has become a trend, where publications, feeling the competition from web media, have cut costs and photography staff. Some have just given cell phones to their reporters instead. Some use public submissions to provide their material, calling it citizen journalism.
Even wildlife photography, which has its own challenges and skills, is feeling pressure - and that can be very dangerous. Some years back, I was doing a shoot in the Canadian Rockies. As I was going on the Trans Canada Highway (which is generally one lane in each direction, outside cities) I saw a line of cars pulled to the side - this usually denotes some wildlife.
I parked at a safe distance and approached from the other side of the road from where everyone was looking. There was a black female bear browsing with four cubs - likely two were adopted as that is not normal. A woman from a camper van with a cell phone was throwing food to the bears to make them come closer, which of course they did. The bears were within 20m of the road and that is very, very dangerous. There is nothing more so than a mother bear fearing for her cubs. Yet several idiots were standing there, oblivious, taking shots with their phones. I told them they were playing a very dangerous game and that the were putting themselves and the bears in danger.
At that time a ranger pulled up, and sized up the situation immediately. She asked who was bating the bears and the camper van lady was identified. The ranger said "you get back in your cars and stay there - I have to shoot the bear now because of your stupidity." She went to her pickup and pulled out a shotgun and shot the bear - with plastic pellets that only stung the bear but had the desired effect.
She said as she wrote out the citation: "I don't like harming an innocent animal that can't help its behaviour. You can, and I've giving you a $2,000 fine. Not only do you put yourself in danger of bear attack, but the animal comes to associate humans with food that puts it in a position where it is likely to get into serious trouble and get shot. I want to avoid that."
I have photographed wildlife for over 40 years and I use my experience and the right gear to get decent shots but not put myself or the animals at risk. I cannot say how many times I have had to discourage folks with cell phones from trying to get the perfect shot with totally inappropriate gear and no skills - or sense.
I'm so glad you guys did this video. I'm both a client and an amateur photographer. We recently did a shoot for my daughter's Master's Degree ceremony. The photographer, who is a friend of my wife, charged what I thought was a reasonable price. My wife, however, thought it was too much for the time allotted. I explained to her that it's not just the 3 hours that we spent at the University taking photos. It was all the things you talked about...........pre planning, equipment setup and loading, driving, location setup, etc. etc. etc. This lady took remarkable photos of our daughter and I felt that every penny we spent was well deserved. I also learned a valuable lesson about giving out the entirety of the photo files. This photographer was accustomed to giving out all the .raw files to her clients for a lower cost. I told my wife that I didn't want that. First, I'm not going to spend the hours going through hundreds of photos trying to pick the best ones to edit for print. That's what I paid her for! Second, I didn't want to be in the position to have her think that I'm re creating her work or questioning her creativity. She's the professional.......I'm the amateur. I couldn't imagine spending all those years perfecting my craft only to have someone whose been shooting sports photos for a couple of years put their "spin" or "touch' on my professional photos. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!!! I've been a fan of you guys for a long time (I have several of your books) and I really appreciate your perspective and candor when talking about photography!! Keep up the great work!!!!
Another unaddressed aspect is Variability. Year's of experience and constant immersion in a given field of photography reduces variability in the product. Many photographers are engaged to capture key life moments or gatherings that only happen once. The experienced professional can confidently provide that assurance. Amateurs, Hobbyists, Smartphones and AI can't.
This is true for so many professions, especially the ones where the “products” are personalized. We currently live in a world where a lot of things are mass produced from cookie cutter processes; which ends up being extremely cheap. People have to understand that photography isn’t like ordering McDonalds, you also can’t just tell them to “give me all the ingredients and I’ll just cook and plate them myself”.
I’m a guitar teacher, and a lot of people don’t understand the process that goes into that either. Even if you don’t take the years and years of practice into account, it still takes a lot of time to prepare before a lesson. Spending hours transcribing and printing sheet music for a student (which is never paid for) just to have them say “oh nvm it’s too hard” is the worst thing ever. Sure, there are teachers who would just pull things off of google to use, but even they have to spend the time to correct the mistakes made by amateur transcribers. There are also teachers who teach from the same book for years regardless of what student they get; that’s like forcing all of your customers to eat the same item on the McDonald’s menu. But you know what? Considering the average wage paid to guitar teachers that’s about what they SHOULD get, not hours of prep catered to individual needs.
Guitarists are obviously specialized too; you shouldn’t ask a jazz guitarist to teach you classical guitar, or a classical guitarist to teach you heavy metal.
“You get what you pay for”. If all you wanted to learn is happy birthday or campfire songs; sure, that’s fine. But if you’re looking to learn a really niche piece which takes years of experience and hours of prep, don’t expect to pay the same amount and still be able to learn it in 4 lessons. Be prepared to spend years learning and practicing, and fees totalling in the thousands. No, you’re not going to learn to play like SRV with 200bucks and 4 lessons. No, you’re not gonna learn to play like Tommy Emmanuel with 200 bucks and 4 lessons. No, your 5 yrs old kid isn’t gonna be able to play happy birthday perfectly in 4 lessons. You wanna learn this piece by Don Ross and you’re prepared to spend years practicing? Now we’re talking.
Sorry about the rant T^T
Back in early days of digital video recording, I did event video. All referrals because they have seen my work. Asked to do a wedding.. gave price and was told their "uncle" will shoot it. No loss for me. 2 months later, they came to me with a bag of miniDV tape asking me to do "something". I could not guarantee anything about the quality because I didn't shoot it. Charged them the same price and they had no problem.
I did the best I could do with what I had, but they lost out on their wedding being professionally done and edited.
Love the analogy of buying the guitar...however try being a musician in 2021. Who pays for music anymore? Thousands of dollars in equipment and hours spent practicing. Not only that but every musician is now expected to run their own websites, record their own music and make their own videos. Love your work Tony & Chelsea, you put so much time and effort into making these great videos. The digital age is making it easier and easier for us all to do what we love but harder and harder to get paid for it. I feel your pain.
What a great Point Jamie! Very similar issues in photography with music creativity and fair pay.
I’m the one guy that will pay for music if it’s good, mainly because I don’t want to rely on an internet connection to enjoy and I like having it on a usb drive for the car as I’m frequently outside of cell range, and I want the higher quality files
Higher quality rocks! MP3s are not where it's at.
Yep, musicians get screwed over these days as no money to be made in sales.
Last wedding I went to, the groom asked everyone to make videos and take pictures with their phones "the whole time". He gathered all the files after the wedding and spent his lunches at work for the next three months editing. It was pretty amazing how good the final "product" was. Of course, he probably spent 30 hours editing, but he had shots and video from all kinds of angles. I didn't contribute because I was a groomsman.
Didn’t anyone own a camera?
The groom was a good video editor, I guess. I wonder how much he'd have charged himself for all those hours of work.
Many years ago I was friendly with a co-worker. She asked me to photograph her daughter's wedding. I gently told her for this once-in-a-lifetime event she should hire a professional wedding photographer. We both dodged a bullet.
A different co-worker hired a “professional” for his son's wedding and the shots were terrible. I was there taking some pictures as a friend and luckily some of my shots came out good which helped to salvage the situation. I had no commitment or responsibility so it was just fun for me.
I occasionally get those customers who ask "why do you need a deposit? I'm for sure getting married then and I'll want pictures!" Sure, until you decide at the last minute to go with a cheaper photographer bc you want an extra night in Cabo -- or your bride-to-be calls it all off (which is of course sad, but it does happen).
I remember when I first started out I didn't ask for a deposit (or too small of a deposit), and how frustrating it was to have people just flake on a shoot altogether two days prior -- a phenomena that only seems to be getting worse, imo. And, in my experience, it's precisely the kind of people who ask why they need to have skin in the game ahead of time that are likely to flake (and be really upset when I keep their deposit).
I am sympathetic to this, but photography is highly competitive. It's the ease at which someone can invest in a kit and start shooting for money that pushes prices down. And the people that do it often love it. This is a good thing for the world as a whole, but not great for photographers looking for a reliable paycheck. This is not radically different from owners of independent coffee shops or people who start restaurants or musicians or other artists. It's not really about how much effort and skill is put into it, it's about how many other options there are to choose from.
You must enjoy when we all work for minimum wage
@@unbroken1010 I don't hire photographers and I don't "enjoy" when other people are low-income. Stating the facts of an industry doesn't mean I like it. It just is.
@@unbroken1010 It is a simple fact and it can not be stopped. My privat gear is "good enough" to do basic 1990s style wedding fotography. That is still in demand in germany. Since I have a 40h/week day job that pays everything I could do one per month for fun money (totally legal) and underbid a full time fotographer easily. Same for
a lot of other hobbyists. Gets even worse with cameras like 5D3 and 5D4 hitting the used market in numbers eliminating the "but it only has one slot" ( not very critical for 1990s style wedding pictures).
Same for a lot of other sectors. Animals, certain portrait types - all doable by amateurs going for fun money. And each amateur chips away at the pro market. Killing the quick "bread and butter" jobs that many fotographers use as a base, the "I have a preset for that/can do this asleep" jobs that a decade or so ago could be sold for good money. The amateurs do it for half the price and still MAKE money because they do not have the overhead costs
@@mbr5742 such a shame
@@unbroken1010 What? The truth? Sorry but times change and professions (mostly) vanish. That is a fact and has been for centuries. Ask the Silesian Weavers or most farriers or german miners or...
I'm a real estate photographer with a massive portfolio over a period of eight years and I still get, can you do it for the exposure, I'll tell all my friends about you. I refuse to work for exposure, I get zero if I do it, I get zero if I don't do it, so I might as well stay in bed and get some extra sleep. I always point out to realtors, you would not sell a house and give your 3% commission back to the seller, so why expect me to give away my work? The response I often get is, I'll take photos with my iPhone for free, I wish them luck and part ways. I've invested. In my gear, so they should invest in the home they are trying to sell, what I charge is about 5% of what they will make on an average home sale.
unfortunately that is EXACTLY what ive run into. agents who will use their phones, and theyll do a 360 panorama, and the boost the clarity and vibrance and their happy. and im out even $75...
What I hate the most during my work is the client arriving 20 minutes late with bad fashion taste, no spare clothes, badly done hair and no makeup. I cant polish a turd.
Ah, that wonderful disconnect between what photographers care about and what clients care about.
I'm a freelancer too. Different profession but I earn a living in what is also a very competitive market.
And my clients couldn't care less about what goes into my work, what I spend getting it done, etc.
The only thing they care about is what my work does for them.
Learn to distinguish your work in terms the clients care about - social reach, profitability, etc. and then they'll care.
A professional photographer should be able to connect with a client over things that matter, that their amateur counterpart will not.
You do "get what you pay for" but only if it's clear what you're paying for and it's never "some photos" or "some words" or "some whatever"... it's more complicated than that.
Facts
This is much more accurate than what T & C are talking about. Much of what they are discussing is irrelevant to the client.
100% correct. We have to stop talking about ourselves and start talking about the VALUE we deliver to the client. Hours and hours of work is not value.
Same.
@@carlraetzsch was that addressed in the video?
"Oh that's a lucky shot"
Really...luck. Not watching weather reports, studying astronomy, pouring over maps and google earth. Spending half the night on a desert playa in the cold and howling winds. Yep I call that lucky.
Thank you! I recently had someone look at my photos that i had spent hours editing and ask me for the unedited files. I asked why and apparently they just wanted the unedited "vibe" ...if you don't want professional quality photos, don't ask a professional photographer to take your pictures.
This was such a great and helpful video in so many ways. One thing I would like to note is that when a photographer who is trying to do it the right way, and charge competitive prices, it is sometimes hard to figure out what those prices should be. The prices that other local photographers charge are not always easy to find or figure out. So then new photographers just starting out, trying to be legit, may end up undercharging because they are trying to be fair and reasonable and definitely don't want to be accused of overcharging, or they are going by what they think is affordable, or it's a friend or family member or a friend of a friend and they don't feel right charging them the "full rate" that they would have to pay someone else.
This should be required viewing, everywhere.
Don't blame the client. Do you pay your auto mechanic more than he asks for? Do you pay your lawn service more than they ask for? How often to you solicit bids and take the lowest one? It's up to the photographer to put the correct value on his or her service and if they are underbid by another photographer, that's business.
Professional photographers are artists - their cameras are the tools they use to create art - their minds and their eyes and hands is where the magic happens. That is what you are paying for when you hire a professional photographer- their artistic judgement and experience. Thank you for this informative video.
This especially when doing Real Estate Photography. Even incorporating 360, Floor plans, etc, they want it practically for nothing.
How much does real estate photography go for on average ?
I hope you're able to push back on underbid projects. REP requires some specialized equipment that's ridiculously expensive and your prices should reflect that. Those wide angle lenses ain't cheap! And then there's the wide angle TS lenses, hoo boy! I was looking those up the other day! No way I'm paying that kind of money to make $60 per shoot!
lmao.. as a former pro real estate photographer and now a real estate agent i know what you mean lol. agents are sooo cheap lol
@@swistedfilms no it doesnt. i started with a nikon d7200, a tripod and a 10-20mm lens. Whole thing was like 800-900 bucks.
@@swistedfilms Exactly. My gear is not cheap. My 360 camera alone is 3k. Problem is when a house doesn’t sell, or a RA isn’t doing well they feel you shouldn’t do well, too - by design that they think it’s really nothing for us to do what we do. Ignorance is truly bliss. Though I have to say overall, I’ve had a more pleasurable experience with RA’s but obviously Covid hasn’t helped either.
I had a client put instagram filters on my photos and then credited me for the photography. They looked horrendous. I told them to please remove me from the credits because I didn't want anyone else thinking that was how I processed the photos.
I went through this and the client messed up the photo even more and I ask myself, " what was the point of paying me to use lights to creat something beautiful just so you can mess it up"
It’s how you frame it; if you emphasize the gear and not the skill and planning, inevitably clients will compare you to iPhone 12 images … which can be so good.
Love your video and message. Too many people think if they know how to take a picture then they know photography. Retired now, but was in education for 31 years (teacher/coach then principal). Saw the same attitude of some people who had no idea of the time and work necessary to be a good teacher. ("Anyone can be a teacher.") Then there's the time afterwards in grading, planning, and preparing no one considers. Sometimes I have former students track me down to thank me for what I did for them. I bet you get the same! Keep up what you're doing. The silent majority really appreciates it! :-)
Thanks for putting this out there. I hope everyone shares this, or at least the information in it with their clients.
Very good video. First off let me say I am as old as dirt. I started off as a newspaper photographer/darkroom tech. I took pictures at events. I took portraits. I took landscape pictures. At one point I even worked at a studio taking wedding pictures. Each of these areas are unique in their own right. So it is understandable a professional photographer concentrate their work in one area of photography. However, for me I love each and every different process. The stories I could tell, like the candlelight wedding where the bride had too much hairspray and got too close to the candles. Traveling to New Orleans or Orlando for a shoot if fun but a lot of work. Sometimes a wedding photographer is called upon for hairclips, bobby pins and safety pins. All in all I love all aspects of professional photography. The one thing I always cringe on is: A birthday when people say your a photographer and hand you the camera. At that time become a snapshot not a photograph. So many people don't understand when I give a client a print for money, it is the highest quality. They are museum quality and should outlast their children's children. I have spent years upon years learning. I have studied from photographers like Monty Zucker. Those things add value.
i was a 2nd shooter for my friend, who had a wedding. one the bride's favorite picture is the one i took of the primary fixing the hem on her dress, where it had gotten stepped on, outside the venue and had a little tear! he also does ceramic tile and cabinet/counter work so i guess i shouldnt be surprised he can fix a dress!
The economics of a business are can't be ignored. If we believe in free enterprise the market will balance it out. Let remember the basics, Price is what the customer is willing to pay for a product, Offer is the amount of product options in the market and demand is the need for a product. How can other photographers can charge more than others: its called brand equity. That is the value that separates a generic product from those that the consumer is willing to pay more to get. Example: Omega watch vs a Hamilton. Both are Swiss and mechanical but one has a higher margin over its materials than the other = Brand equity. So if you can't charge more for your product in your market, and its not your skillset, you should either go to another market or abandon the business. If you believe you deserve more for your service, you need to build that equity. Otherwise the market will dictate the price consumers pay.
Ooof. You dropped a truth bomb in a sea of liberal creatives who think that everyone should be paid equal for their craft because feelings. I 100% agree with your post, but wait for the shit storm.
@@elephantgrass631 It's not really controversial at all. It's the same with music, if your music doesn't sell enough units (records, downloads etc) you either have to get better at what you're doing, change up your style (like when Metallica changed from being a thrash-metal band in the 80s to a more mainstream-friendly sound with the release of their self titled album in 1991 and thus "broke through" in the mainstream market) or just find something else to do. Obviously some (if not a lot) of what you call brand equity is "artificially created" (ie better advertisement etc) , it still doesn't change the fact that the market isn't going to care about what you feel you deserve, they're only going to care about you being able to deliver the goods at a competitive price.
Ps. That isn't to say that a free market economy is the end-all be-all as far as economic models go, but that's another discussion altogether.
@@elephantgrass631 Until the republican snowflake cries about their job being automated away or offshored for a truly competitive price lmao.
@@XiPresident Yeah, that dirty Republican Andrew Yang should keep his mouth shut about automation for sure.
@@Nghilifa Sure it's controversial. If you disagree with me or any liberal, you're a racist. Also, it's all rich people's fault that I can't make it as a photographer. Why should I get better when they can just give me their money?
We should not tell our customers what to or not to do with the photos they paid for. They want to filter and damage them, they paid for them, have a it. You need to separate feelings and if they place filters and change it, tell them to tag you, my guess is that they like the original and you will get a referral.
After shooting since 1965 and professionally since 1997 I got tired of "arm wrestling" with all kinds of customers I went to two fields: 1) construction progress for institutional and corporate customers (from groundbreaking to the ribbon-cutting ceremony) 2) Forensic contractor for law enforcement agencies. I am happy since neither photo needs work on any photo software since pictures can't be altered in any form. I invoice them at the end of the month and I get my check. No more problems at all!
For what little it helps, I've pointed out to people that you take your car to a mechanic and pay them $80 or more per hour for just their labor. That's because they have thousands of dollars in equipment, years of experience, and training. Photographers and graphic designers have thousands of dollars in equipment, years of training, and experience. I hear you on those pay cheap, get cheap photography. I saw it after quitting photography and working in a professional-level camera store in the late film days. I would get these people who would come in who were taking photo jobs like school portraits, family, etc. Then they would ask me things like what f-stop or film they should be using. Now we have those people with an entry-level camera with a kit lens who have gotten a few positive comments and suddenly start doing portraits and weddings for very little and just hand the client a flash drive or DVD. Very frustrating.
I really think that these are wonderful points, and certainly are valid for photographers. however, the sad and unfortunate reality is that the cell phone has changed the photography business forever.
Most people are dumb as stumps when it comes to photography, and worse, are willing to accept terrible images for their personal use, and even for professional use sometimes.
I photograph weddings and the really sad part is I often see the bride, groom and family posting really terrible cell phone pictures within minutes of the ceremony and for most people that’s fine.
Any fool with a smart phone can take a photo now,the other reality is that as generations pass on fewer and fewer people print images anymore,everything is locked at on a phone, or on a computer screen.
The photography world has changed forever, like for the better, but also a lot for the worse…
I once interviewed with an artist who wanted to have photos made of his paintings of classic cars. I explained to him what my fees would be and why they were higher than expected, that taking photos of art was highly technical. He kept asking me very pointed questions about lighting and other issues, feigning ignorance. I then noticed that his assistance, sitting apart was taking notes - they were actually just pumping me for information so they could do themselves. I fed them a highly technical sounding line of bull.
I was approached by a local organisation to take photos of an event. It was to be two portraits, a group shot, and a photo of a document siging. I told them it would be A$500. They said they only had A$200. Since it was a community organisation I said okay, since it was for the community.
Two days before the shoot they contacted me and said it would now be portraits of everyone involved (5 people) as well as the group photo, the siging, and a "handshake over the document" shot for the newspaper... and I would only get A$100.
I said no, that was out of the question. From their response, you'd think I'd murdered their families!
Sometimes you just get clients like that, I'm afraid...
Interesting. Once you had said 'yes', they thought they could arbitrarily redictate both the requirements and the price. And were shocked when that didn't fly.
Problem is that there are SO MANY photographers undercharging customers when they are still "making a name forthemselves" and there is always an up and coming photographer option available that will not charge much if anything to just build their customerbase/portfolio.
I've been asked so many times to "just take some photos" at weddings or something like that because I'm not a working professional photographer. They just don't get that it's not just "taking some photos". It's SO MUCH WORK and stress to take even descent gallery from a wedding.
Basic wedding photoshoot price here in Finland is 700-1000e. That is absolutely insane for a full day of shooting and then at least a week of editing. And consider that Finland is one of the most expensive countries and taxes here are insane. That is barely enough to cover expenses. It's just too easy to call yourself a "photographer" and start lowcutting tha marketplace and doing shit work that it's a very difficult profession to make bread.
the wedding studio i worked for in the 1980’s, (founded in 1928) was known for quality photography, and one day a women came in as asked us to shoot her daughters wedding, “For Nothing” claming she was well known, and we would get publicity from that… when the boss laughed in her face, she was stunned. and that was the first ‘Karen” i had come across.
😂 I could only imagine…. “ don’t you knoww who I am?!”
@@iron_recluse Funnily enough, a council parking warden was retiring locally and was interviewed about his most difficult situations. He had ticketed an expensive car parked in front of an ambulance bay, and was about to have it towed as it had been there for about 40minutes, when the irate owner came out and lost it, screaming at him "How dare you ticket my car, this is a Ferrari!" Go figure...
There have been quite a few instances of social media influencers asking for free stuff and services for good reviews. Failure to do so was likely to result in a negative review and resultant loss of clients. A friend of mine was asked by one to shoot an event gratis to support one such as they were considered "pretty good" by the influencer. When they declined they got seriously rubbished on line. A court case is in the offing...
Preach! So good to hear you explain the talent, skills and effort that goes into a photoshoot! Sadly, I can testify to pretty much all of the unfortunate client remarks you mentioned.... It's a tough world out there.
Welcome to the business world. It's up to you to sell what you can do for the customer. Get over it! What is fair pay? No customer is going to pay what YOU think you're worth. They're going to want to pay what they think you're worth. Your job is to make them feel comfortable for what you can deliver for the agreed price. Half of doing business is selling, the other half is producing the product you sell. You two do a great job at selling yourselves and from what I've seen is you do a great job making the great photos and videos. Don't spend too much time on what other charge.
This is tough love but I think it's true. And not just for photography. Some writers and musicians seem to think they're geniuses but no one buys their stuff.
Agreed. This is true for every business. If you own a business, learn how to sell your product and/or service. Don’t take that next photography course. Take that sales corse instead.
OMG you GUYS! This is SO spot on...i have a guy who I gave a good rate to, who is dragging me all over the place. I would love it if you would talk about what a sellers contract should contain for digital negatives. I live in a place where I have no printers, and the turn-around would be too long. This guy was surprised there was ANY written agreement.
Wow, incredible video Tony and Chelsea. This is so important for many people to understand. Thanks for sharing this insight for uneducated clients that may no know any better.
Everything you said is true, but clients don't care or see the points you raise.
It is far more simple than that;
It has to with ego and camera 📷 phones.
Almost everyone thinks they can take a good photo, and/or can edit. Because they did some family shots, that everyone said were nice. (People always say that family photos look good).
So the impression people have is photography is easy. Then they apply this mindset to purchasing a third person. No one considers equipment cost, mobilisation cost and editing cost. They only can relate it to how they would take the photos.
So when they offer or low ball, they actually believe they are doing you a favour offering hundred bucks.
Great points! Now, do a post process book for Capture One. Cause I haven't found one.
My friends and family always want me to start a photography business because "Your photos on Facebook are so nice." They don't understand the thousands of photos I've thrown out, the time editing, and all that. I told one friend I'd only charge $50 to do family photos for them and put them on a disc, and they got mad because I charged at all, then went and spent over $300 on a photo package. Friends and family want me to open an official business, but they expect me to work for free.
Offer something more than what you put out there.. otherwise, there's a saying the market will dictate your value.
Never do business for friends or family. That's my rule.
Money always sours relationships. Just tell them you're not comfortable with it.
@@rtquest22 Not sure what you mean. They wanted me to take photos of both girls in different outfits at two locations, photos of the husband and wife, "random" family photos, and a family portrait. I would then edit the photos and have them print ready and provide them on a disc or usb for them to do whatever they wanted. $50 was just for my gas money and a little spending money for the weekend.
I think a lot of photographers will send this video you made to clients who try to undervalue what they do. I was in the wedding and portrait market for 23 years and I’ve seen and heard it all. It’s only a recent phenomenon due to digital. When we shot on film no one would dare question our validity because you had to have balls of steel to shoot weddings on film. Now thankfully I have left all that behind and shoot mainly high end fine art. My clients expect to pay big because they know I’m worth the money.
Always receive deposits and progress payments as the process advances, leaving a small amount on final delivery.. This is true of ANY business..
i totally agree. it is hurtful when someone just put a filter over my pictures. most of the time, i'll tell them that i don't even want to be tagged
I think you're seeing what I'm seeing. Photographers need to adapt now. The degree I did over a decade ago no longer exists, as everything has gone digital. Everyone has a camera on their phones, and software makes people think they can duplicate what an experienced photographer do. We're basically in the age of horses and carts moving onto motor vehicles. If you don't adapt, you'll go out of business.
More complex. In the days of film learning was costly and took a lot of time. Fewer community college options, less materialmto learn from. Digital has lowered the cost of learning, mass market has made high end cameras cheap (Compare a EOS 6D2 to the last film using EOS the 1V), Internet has given more learning material and "teachers". Add in the support the digital cameras offer like auto ISO useable well past the wildest dreams of analog times. You get a large pool of high end hobby fotographers that can deliver what in the 1990s/early 2000s was " standard for a trained craftsman". And doing side jobs for "fun money" sounds good to many of those.
So the pros need to out perform that group AND sell the extra services. The later is the bigger problem - many customers are happy with "that 1990s stuff"
‘You must have a nice camera.” is akin to saying to a professional basketball player “You must have a good basketball.”
They are a problem. A modern camera can do many of the bread and butter "done in two hours" jobs easily. Where in tge 1990s the local pro would take "four-six 90 birthdays a day" or "pictures of 90 preschool pupils" and make a decend living from base pay and sold copies - those jobs are mostly dead. The pictures in a similar quality are done by a family member or an amateur that works as a part timer that can easily underbid the full time fotographer.
Seen that at my grandmas 95s. After the "Onkel Egon" incident I was never again asked to do family evens (YES!!!!) and they hired a guy who did it on the side (Main job - civil servant) for a low amount of money.
If you want a pro, you have to pay premium. But there are many photographers out there willing to help you for less money. That's the point. It depends on the occasion and the type of result you're after I guess.
OMG! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS! I've been doing photography for 20+ years, & even to this day I'm still developing my skills... I always want to tell people these things, but I'm afraid of sounding like a jerk. I'm not very good at explaining this without sounding jaded or condensing, so I avoid it... I'm going to share this. TEN OUT OF FIVE STARS! ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
The problem is that as phones and cameras are so good, anyone can create a sharp vivid image
Attributes like composition and lighting etc are often not appreciated by the customers without a direct comparison shown
Years ago, getting reliable great pictures on film was only in realm of professionals or capable enthusiasts
That's a likely scenario given that the smartphones have advanced to the point that it will eventually gain a foothold significantly on the photography industry. The old days of lugging around equipment will be gone or downsize to bare minimum (ex, smartphones, global shutter compatible flash, foldable diffusers,etc).
Yeah and the new young photographers willing to work for free or media clout does not help
@@rtquest22 And minimum wage. Thanks Sony
@@unbroken1010 we all have to adapt given the competitive edge.
@@unbroken1010 This is the case for every field. Fewer and fewer laborors needed due to tech. Gotta adapt to society. This is affecting everyone or will affect everyone
I always get a kick out of friends, colleagues, and clients that say the same thing: "that you must have a great camera" when they see the photos and video of a high end house I shot. I could get very similar results with my old Nikon D3300 that I do with my Sony A7SIII and A7RIV, it's just that with the more capable modern equipment, it's faster and easier to get the images and tell the story I want to tell. When I showed a friend my work flow in Lightroom, PS, Topaz, etc... they were floored that there was so much effort and time involved to get the final product! I guess expecting anyone to appreciate what we all choose to do for a living is a tough sell... Walk a mile in someone else's shoes as they say!
Another situation you could talk about is when a client hires you to do a simple headshot, then when you show up, the client wants family portraits since "you're already here". Or the client who thinks that since they paid the photography fee, they own the rights to do anything they want with the photos.
They got a video on this already!…they just say no , they don’t have the time ..especially since now you have to retouch each individuals face and make sure yu get the right photo ..I would just say no ..or charge more
Tell them you will add an addendum to your original contract adjusting on the amount of work they add on to the shoot which adjusts the cost of course. More work = more money. Very straightforward.
This happens to me often. Just got back from one of these. Corporate client has me come back for fresh headshots because of changing staff. No problem. I've been doing their headshots for a few years now. Then they ask "While you're here can you do a group photo down in the lobby" I quoted them for an entire new session. They were ok only after I explained that the two types of photos are vastly different, requiring different equipment, shooting style, etc. Sometimes it's all about setting expectations, and occasionally saying no.
A lot of valid points.
With digital I had to find a let go price. What price am I comfortable letting things go and then I make it up and go from there.
There are a lot of people teaching and being influencers that don’t have a clue. Saw someone the other day that called himself an old G with 5 or 7 years in the industry. I have lenses that I have had in my possession longer than that. A lot of misinformation out there, everyone is now a photographer.
I shoot mostly high school seniors and my market is saturated and I still stay on top because I continue to grow and Hager better.
Thank you for this video
Good topic. I have to take issue with the "fair pay" in your title. There is no such thing, if you're an independent. If you want to charge $5,000, do so. The customer can decide if they are willing to pay that amount. If that other guy charges only $500, I don't care, that's not going to change my mind. I'm well aware of what others charge. Both fees are "fair".
I'm not a professional photographer, but I've had people ask me to shoot them just because I've got a nice camera. Someone asked me to shoot the interior of their house. I don't even have the right lenses for that and have never shot real estate stuff (why would you as a hobby?). Another classic was my auntie insisting that I shoot my cousin's wedding on her little camcorder because I studied film at university.
A camcorder..😂😂😂
Photographers are like piranha - they eat their own. Between GWC (Guys with cameras - and now filters) and camera phones - everyone thinks they are professional shooters. I went to a professional photo school (Brooks), huge investments in gear, and a lifetime of experience! Thanks for this video, please do more like this!!
Photographers should just hold firm on price. I can't justify leaving the house for less than $500 for a one person business headshot and even at that price I still feel they got the best of me. I consider myself a near novice professional photographer (I have 3 other gig businesses) but I am polite and show up on time. High end photographers just need to turn down low paying jobs ... insult the client back... they deserve it. Also make sure your payment is there when you show up. Billing people just turns you into a schmuck.
A lady tried to hire me to shoot an event for her. She didn’t want me to edit the pictures. She just wanted me to hand her the raw photos. I turned down the job because she didn’t want a photographer, she wanted a picture taker.
My late best friend was a professional portrait photographer and occasionally did weddings. His minimum fee to go shoot on location whether it's the client's home or some outdoor location was $20k plus the portraits which were as high as $5k. He was very well known among the wealthy people in the area especially those in the philanthropy circle who needed to have their pictures in the buildings they were supporting. And of course they wanted new pictures every year.
He would reluctantly do weddings but his fee went up to as much as $50k plus the pictures.
Another friend went to get his masters in architecture photography at Rochester Institute of Technology. He was in high demand in the 80's and 90's for taking pictures of golf courses in Asia where they were building a lot of golf courses. Later on he concentrated on landscape where he was successfully selling large prints at $5-10k. I used to tell him I couldn't afford his pictures so he would send me a small print every Christmas. He has retired to the mountains of New Mexico.
I’ll just chime in as a full time professional musician who has gotten into photography as a hobby and now closer to a side hustle or even separate career path (largely thanks to you two and your videos thanks for the guidance!) man… the supply demand thing is real as some people have mentioned here.
Being a musician is super difficult and the max thresholds of pay are generally fractions of what the average photographer charges or gets offered for a tenth of the experience that pro musicians have on their instruments.
Case in point, I got offered $600 to shoot a live concert as a second shooter for my friend who was doing video. If I had been playing drums in that band I probably would have been lucky to walk away with $100. Lucky, good tips etc.
I have about two years experience with photography, and I’m taking it really seriously and taking classes learning everything I can etc… but compared to the 25 years experience I have with music it’s absurd to see how quickly those skills are valued comparatively.
All I’m saying is, fair points in a lot of this discussion, but from my perspective photographers are the last people I’ve seen being “underpaid.”
I used to get ~$2 per hour for a part time photography job. And the employer still had problems with me when I said that the photographs needed time to be edited.
I had an older friend that was a locksmith. He said people would get him out of bed in the middle of the night because they lost their house key in a bar. He would get them into the house in 5 minutes and they would complain about his fee for working so little.
He learned to make the job look much harder by pulling out and using the wrong tools and maybe cussing a little at the lock. The client was much happier with the bill. He earned the money. Lol.
Drag out light stands, backdrops, sound equipment, lots of electrical wire running everywhere. then the client will be happier.
Just went to a major, world class trade show where a Fortune 500 company used 14 of my shots for their videos and displays. 4 of them were blown up to 4' x 6', and looked amazing. Since I took them as an employee of one their customers, they used the shots and paid zero for them. I asked them to make a scholarship donation to a local industry professional organization, and they never paid anything. So sad
What an awesome video. I agree 100%. I have often underpriced my work. In the end I feel like I was she did all the time. But I’m going to learn to charge an adequate price for my skills.
This is exactly why I no longer do weddings. People constantly low balling me or refusing to pay the full amount and there is always "that" person at the wedding who is always in your ear about how their phone can take as good of photos as my "fancy" camera or something along that line. No thank you, I'll stick to photos of birds, landscapes and my grandson, sincerely a retired photojournalist.
Totally agree about printing being a skill. Some labs have different printing profiles so could look different at different labs. Also the photos have to be prepared properly in editing and color balance.
As a fine-art portrait photographer I find that the best trick is to hand the camera to the client BEFORE I shoot and ask them to do some shots of me. Often they have NO clue. It makes the client instantly value your skill. If it's in a studio with lighting all the better.
This is genius 🙌
Ohhh! Printing... Once I was 4 hrs into the lighting and setup of a product... Then the MKT person working for the customer comes in takes a shot with her iPhone and says.. look, it's not that difficult, see? ... then she went with her picture and sent it for printing... A week later I was called as the customer was going to sue me for the horrible picture and the low quality and 15k in damaged prints. I had to tell him well... that's not my picture... your MKT employee took a shot with the phone and sent it for printing and didn't pay me... she got fired... and I had to reshoot the product again, so it was really expensive. Since then, I have done 40 more pictures for the same customer, and there's no printing until I say so hahahaha.
I just got into photography and damn theres sooooo much more than just snapping a pic. There is so much more creating great pics. We had a “photographer” for my nieces sweet 16 and pics were terrible. There are levels to this.
If you are invited and the food is good nobody says: good food, you must have super pots or pans.
Why is it different with photographers?
"I just read your book, it was amazing! You must have an incredible keyboard!"
I have been a professional photographer for over 30 years. All the points you make are spot on and I'm sure all pros feel your pain and you aren't telling them anything they don't already know. However, if you think showing this video to your clients or putting this on your website will help your business, you are seriously mistaken. This will only make your clients feel you are a whiner and you will lose the respect of your clients and they won't be calling you back. Great internal message to be bantered around among pros.
Do not agree. People need to be compensated for their talent and quality of work. The work you do is your business card.
only recently a customer wanted me to take pictures of her again. the first time she got a lot of pictures for a budget price - i have now adjusted my prices and give customers far fewer pictures in order to have more scope for upsale. I offered this customer a lot more pictures because she came back to me - "But you got expensive" was her answer - "I didn't charge enough before" was mine. I only got this 😂 emoji in response. Too bad that she has already forgotten how happy she was with her pictures at the time and how good the rating she left me was.
Full price to new customers , discounts for loyal customers 💯 new customers will never wanna pay more for less than what yu already gave them
@@directorjayalex sure, but that doesn't apply to my example cause I was building my portfolio then (didn't mention that here) and she paid a ridiculously low price the first time 😉
@@andy.photoandfilm 💯💯💯🎬
I absolutely hate that photographers on thumbtack are ok with charging only 500 for wedding!!! It makes it so hard to get hired. And yes people to pay !
For some reason your video made me think of something I hadn't in many years. It doesn't pertain to fair pay as much as being a photographer with a huge amount of compassion. I came so close to doing this work. The emotions for me was just too great. For those who do not know there is a very very special group of photographers. All images must be in black and white for the most part. You must be selected. Without saying anymore the group is: 'Now I lay me down to sleep'. It is compassion at the deepest level for I have witnessed it first hand via friend.
I had someone want me to shoot portraits of their grandchildren but they never followed through to schedule the shoot. I followed up and asked when they wanted me to come over and I was told that they no longer needed me to do their photography. They just purchased a new phone and the phone was all they needed.
Wow, I do appreciate this. I have played in bands and (sorry) run discos, and no-one realises the time it takes to set the gear up, and take down after. Not to mention the cost of gear and travel etc. Great video :). However, it was great fun, and so is photography. Take care, Rod.
The cell phone comment below is important, because it's shrunk the difference between amateurs and pros. So the pros need to raise their own bar. But that tiny sensor -- no matter how many megapixels -- and the tiny molded lens can never match full frame sensors behind $1,000 ground glass. Better tools can produce better work, if you know how to use them. Dependability and consistency matter. I shoot real estate. I get work based on the last house I shot. Repeat business is the final answer. To the comment about equipment problems, you didn't mention it, but I always have backups. Even if you check things out before, you can get a failure on site. As for price, I just don't take low price work. Taking twice as much work for half the price is a losing game. Great video guys.
Someone I work with recently pressured me (a landscape / aviation photographer) to take surfing photos of them...for free. I will not be making that mistake again. So much truth in this video
To add insult to injury he asked for all the raw files when he didn't like the photos I had selected and processed.
You should've taken the photos. Then when asked where they were tell him that viewing them cost extra. But you'd be willing to trade the photos for his surfboard, which he surely got for free, right?
Sorry, I know that's not helpful.
@@taylorbryan9994 Oof
@@taylorbryan9994 that’s my favorite. I do video and I get the “can I have the raw video files I edit in my spare time”
Just turned down an industrial photography job for many of the reasons you mentioned. Nice video Chelsea and Tony!
If people could even get it in their head that they are at LEAST paying for another person to drive over and spend hours working for them.
Yes but i was quoted $10000 by an videographer for a small independent film with budget around $5000. I ended up learning shooting videos and bought a reasonable camera and extras for $2000 and shooting it myself.
I have a similar problem in the dry cleaning world...... don't feel bad...... all customers no matter what field your in ..... have the same stance with their thinking process...... back to photography aspect..... a cell phone to the common consumer it's sufficient enough.... just shows how much a photo really matters these days
I took a stab at wedding photography and gave it up because clients had no appreciation for all the work I put into it. This was in film days, when not only did I have to take the photos, I had to personally assemble the albums. If you've never done it, setting up an album with all the print sizes and appropriate sequence is an art in itself. And still, clients wanted to just buy the negatives so they could just get cheap prints instead of the quality product they contracted for. Fuhgeddaboudit.