Sony Cyber-shot F828: 21 years later! RETRO review + IR hack!
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Trying out the legendary Sony Cyber-shot F828 from 2003, 21 years after it was launched! Includes magnet hack for infra red photos!
Replacement battery for F828 / F717 / F707: amzn.to/4cCxFsY
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Sell your used gear to MPB at: bit.ly/3ULU9yL
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Equipment used for producing my videos
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Panasonic Lumix S5 II: amzn.to/3Hf5IcI
Sony A6400: prf.hn/l/pRO0wp5
Sony e 24mm f1.8: amzn.to/2TqWNzk
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MacBook Pro 14in (16GB / 1TB): bhpho.to/3HiafJL
00:00 - Sony F828
06:38 - Sony F828 battery FM50
08:43 - Sony F828 RGBE sensor filter array
10:35 - Sony F828 RAW mode
11:16 - Sony F828 Real color mode
13:12 - Sony F828 nightshot mode
14:13 - Sony F828 infra-red magnet hack
06:57 - Sony F828 sample images
Music: www.davidcuttermusic.com / @dcuttermusic
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases - Наука
Trying out the legendary Sony Cyber-shot F828 from 2003, 21 years after it was launched! Includes magnet hack for infra red photos!
Replacement battery for F828 / F717 / F707: amzn.to/4cCxFsY
Buy Gordon a coffee: www.paypal.me/cameralabs
Gordon's In Camera book: amzn.to/2n61PfI / Amazon uk: amzn.to/2mBqRVZ
Cameralabs merchandise: redbubble.com/people/cameralabs/shop
Find vintage gear on eBay: rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53200-19255-0/1?icep_ff3=1&pub=5574908462&toolid=10001&campid=5338329149&customid=&ipn=psmain&icep_vectorid=229466&kwid=902099&mtid=824&kw=lg
Sell your used gear to MPB at: bit.ly/3ULU9yL
Buy used gear from MPB at: prf.hn/l/YLqwRAP
Lost photos? I recover mine with: www.dpbolvw.net/click-100568658-13808570?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stellarinfo.com%2Fphoto-recovery-software.php
Equipment used for producing my videos
DJI Osmo Pocket 3: click.dji.com/AIOhqT-LWUFDq-bGk8hD4Q?pm=link
Panasonic Lumix S5 II: amzn.to/3Hf5IcI
Sony A6400: prf.hn/l/pRO0wp5
Sony e 24mm f1.8: amzn.to/2TqWNzk
Rode NT USB mic: amzn.to/3AdHcUp
Rode Wireless Go II mic: amzn.to/3xkCvGo
Rode Lavalier Go mic: amzn.to/3ygzzKY
Godox UL150 light: amzn.to/2VpVbXE
Godox QR-P70 softbox: amzn.to/3yQfGdF
MacBook Pro 14in (16GB / 1TB): bhpho.to/3HiafJL
00:00 - Sony F828
06:38 - Sony F828 battery FM50
08:43 - Sony F828 RGBE sensor filter array
10:35 - Sony F828 RAW mode
11:16 - Sony F828 Real color mode
13:12 - Sony F828 nightshot mode
14:13 - Sony F828 infra-red magnet hack
06:57 - Sony F828 sample images
Music: www.davidcuttermusic.com / @dcuttermusic
As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases
This camera was the future in 2003
Great overview in detail. I love my F828. I sell most of the cameras I try (just to save space, not because I don't like them) but the F828 I've held onto. Great to use normally, IR hack is a sweet bonus. The other thing I like is the pointy starbursts with the lens stopped down! That whole era of 8mp bridge cameras has some great keepers today. I think I've owned all of them at this point!
Thanks for checking it out! I enjoyed your video about it too. Forget the 'benefits' of RGBE, its true legacy today is the magnet hack with full AF!
Wow, I remebered 640x480 videos looking much nicer! Although I watched them on very different screens :)
Photos look pretty despite somewhat lacking dynamic range - guitars shot blew me away!
Can't wait to see the video about the R1!
I remember lusting after this one, only couldn't justify the price. Settled for a 300€ cheaper Fujifilm S7000 instead.
Thanks Gordon. Very thorough review.
Thanks!
Interesting! I love these looks back.
Thanks!
Sony should definitely release something on that nature, is already old enough to market as a vintage design. And give us the infrared option as a feature instead of a hack. Photographers are an easily bored public, I think it would have enough interest to justify the product.
Gosh how exciting and brilliantly creative digital photography was when the whole thing started. Now we live in times when actual innovation or courage to forge anything new ahead has been replaced by nothing but endless boredom and lack of any sort of emotion or exhilaration. 20 years ago was fun, now is apathic lethargy and 20 years on there is not even photography as we know it any longer. This is a dying industry along with all other sorts of media creation helplessly on it's last sprint.. and it will be a wipeout. Either way the memories stay along with the images taken. And.. 20 years I said? Not even 5.
PS - Great video as always Gordon! You are vintage gold and modern diamond on the internet world❤️❤️❤️
Thanks!
Loving these retro reviews Gordon! I was there for all of it but only recently have begun to appreciate these cameras that I sold every six months to buy the new model that solved one of the many issues that every camera had a the time, mostly due to technological limitations. Now I am happy with my Canon 5Ds, Sony A7r II, and Olympus E-M1 (plus my film cameras of course ; ) These old cameras are just a nostalgic hobby. PS That full spectrum beach shot reminds me of my families faded 70s prints and hits me in the heart. The B&W IR conversion is fantastic.
Thanks! Yes, there's a really nice look to the full spectrum images. I think I may do a whole day out in full-spectrum and make a video about it! I agree, I regret selling my old gear to fund new models. The boring ones, less so, but the early ones, definitely.
I use a 5Gb microdrive in mine. I have a few and tried to sell them on eBay, but no one seemed interested. It works perfectly.
I think it's a classic! How much were you asking?
Hi Gordon, I paid just under a fiver each just over a year ago. I can't remember what I was selling them for, but in case you want one for free (for old times sakes - as I was there in the PCW days) I will send you one. I have sent a separate message.
@@DinoBytes I can't see how to contact you, so the separate message hasn't been sent yet! Please can you advise an email address or something. Thanks :)
@@moviebod you can use contact@cameralabs.com I thought it was on there!
I once bought this camera on Amazon for 750 dollars. And it was a very big achievement.
Love these video Gordon! So many good cameras forgotten. Pentax MX4 is one of those I wish the design had stayed cameras. Thanks for sharing!
Glad you enjoyed it!
This is great content dude.
Thanks!
Wow great review! Thanks, I am gonna buy one now
Glad you enjoyed it!
Awesome! These shots look so much better than most current mirrorless cameras IMO. The colors are great and the images have character to them unlike the over-sharpened and sterile looking photos most newer mirrorless digital cameras produce these days. Love the "real color" mode. This would make a nice addition to my bridge camera collection.
Thanks, it's certainly a classic!
I remember wanting the 717, but then got the Rebel when it came out. I also recall Nikon trying something with the sensor CFA as well. They used an CYGM array on the CoolPix 5000, perhaps others as well.
I still have mine, it still works, and I miss using it. I sold my loved and first digital camera, Fujifilm S5000 (which I used to beat-out a bunct of Nikon and Canon DSLRs back in 2004 for a calendar contest.)
Great in-depth video. I just got mine for 60 Euro, including the HVL-F32X flash. It definitely is my most special looking camera and I love the swivel action. APS-C camera's give better quality pictures, but this one is just more fun to use.
Glad you enjoyed it and are still using it!
Amazing video as always! Ive always wanted this model but after two years of searching with no results I've switched to the H series and found a H9 for really cheap on Facebook marketplace. It has a bunch of features similar to the F828 including the nightshot mode and the HAD CCD plus a tilting screen, sadly the full spectrum on this one requires a somewhat permanent modification, as you need to disassemble the whole body to remove a single flat going to the switch on the body XD but I love it nonetheless and would love to see you make a review on the H series.
Thanks you as always for this amazing review and please continue with this series, I love it.
Thankyou, many more to come!
@@DinoBytes can't wait for the next one!
I just happened to acquire one last month, excited to use it in IR mode
Get yourself a strong magnet!
@@DinoBytes it actually doesn’t have to be that strong, the magnet from my name tag from work does the trick for me.
I use a stack of four neodymium button magnets. I have a jacket with inner and outer pockets, so I keep some Canadian coins in the inner one, and never worth about losing my magnets!
@@gregorymessimer5728 I only need one magnet it seems.
Yes the F828 is a very interesting camera. Bought my first one new when it came out, and later SH ones for as little as around £35. The IR capability is good when used with a powerful magnet as it does remove limitations that Sony put into it. I would like to see a new version based on the design but with interchangeable lens. The ability to swivel the display for waist level use is very useful and its 28-200mm lens is very good for the time. It was the best of the 8meg cameras around at the time.
£35 is a great price
I still have mine, and the battery still holds up. I still do infrared shooting on it. I love it and won't let it go.
I'm amazed the battery still works! What sort of subjects do you like shooting in IR?
@@DinoBytes I was pleasantly surprised myself to see the battery still hold a charge. I know it can’t shoot more than two hours before it dies, but it still works.
I shoot landscape primarily.
Exciting times ! All cameras today are boringly competent (some people are still arguing which is better) but I guess these days we can focus more on taking pictures, which is good, but definitely less fun from a technical point of view.
It's amazing how similar they've all become
I did admire these but, as you say, by then I was eagerly waiting for the affordable DSLRs. Still a few years though before the tonality and dynamic range of any digital camera was actually comparable to film. I don't miss those muddy, flat colours and bone-white highlights. At the time even cheap Superia 200 looked so much better.
I've been after one of these cameras for a while but they seem to be popular on ebay and command a good price. You did well to find one for £40 even if it was a risk. Then you go and mention the R1, another camera I'd have liked to add to the collection. Looking forward to that video.
The R1 was much pricier, cost me about 90 quid as I recall
Nice!
Odd solutions and ir hacks created a innovative cameras, but the aps-c sensor dslr came with more advantages including better image quality and more lens options.
Sony deserves a thanks for experimenting with their digital bridge cameras.
Highly looking forward to your R1 review! Still remember the one you did with Chris Niccolls back in 2017.
Me too! As I mentioned in that collab, it was actually the review I used to launch my cameralabs.com website!
The camera landscape nowadays is so much more advanced, but also kind of boring. I love these older times when companies would try different stuff to get attention.
Amen!
Perfectly serviceable
Laser AF Light! This camera was the "it" camera back then. I remember not being able to sleep because of excitement of getting this camera on my door next morning! After this they released an APS-C sensored fixed lens camera but I can't remember the name.
Do you still have it?
@@DinoBytes nope, unfortunadely I replaced it with EOS Rebel XT a couple of month's later. Eos rebel felt so damn boring after F828.
@@sammulder9532 exactly! I swapped my Sonys for the first Rebel, the 300D in 2003 and am just finishing a new video all about it. The sensor was big, you could swap lenses BUT you're right, the feature set was so dull in comparison!
this was my dad's dream camera before he settled for a canon powershot g6
Both great cameras!
Bought one when they were first available un the UK and kept it until the R1 came out. I liked the build and features but not the noise at high ISO and its inability to cope with specular highlights which gave odd colour effects. The R1 overcame these problems and I still have it. One thing you missed was the laser assisted focusing which was brilliant and I wish cameras today had it.
I covered the laser AF in my F717 review, so referred back to it here.
I was between this one and the konica Minolta a2... I got the A2... both were amazing
Very true!
I was still using my Minolta Dimage A2 several years ago, with 7x optical zoom and 8mpix 2/3" sensor. But I forgot the base ISO was 64. So I'm now stuck with hundreds of noisy 100 ISO RAWs from my epic trips. Fortunately new AI algorhythms for denoising help these days
I had to fight lust for this camera with soul crushing reality check of my financials, back then.
But now it could be YOURS!
@@DinoBytes By now we've grown used to the availability of smartphones photos
As far as charging the battery, the Sony BC-VM50 is a stand-alone charger that will work! 100-240V, 50/60Hz input.
I had one of these, loved the design although prefered the earlier 717, I now exclusively use old Kodaks with EVFs, they have not attracted the intrest of retro camera users and are still very inexpensive, there were some really good ones (and a few with no merit also), loving the Kodak P880 and P712, oh and the Z990 from 2011 with a 12mp cmos sensor and 30X zoom starting at 28mm was good too (although had some quirks), bought one for £35!!
Good tip!
Still want to mention that CCD images are really special. My first digital camera was in fact the Canon Ixus 330 which in 2003 was able to shoot VGA videos up to 30min(?) Wow! 😂 and later a Fujifilm superzoom with a 10mp sensor before the foray into digital SLR, Canon 300D
Yeah, there's something about those old technologies. Not sure it's 100% attributable to ccd alone, but there's definitely something nice going on with many of them.
Exciting times, back then Sony always come up with something new that paved the way for others, now everything looks same.
Wait till you see my review of the R1 coming soon!
Can't wait for your take on Fuji s100Fs or s200EXR
Great video. I absolutely love the F828. I've been acquiring a lot of vintage digital cameras recently and this is my favorite of the bunch. It's one I often grab as I'm going out the door. I like it so much that I grabbed a couple of spares when a good deal popped up and another for my brother-in-law. Other old cameras I've gotten include: Sony DSC-D770 (I'd love to hear your thoughts on this if you have one) / DSC-R1 (looking forward to this video) / F707 (my first digital camera), Nikon 990/995/8700/D200, Canon PowerShot Pro 1. I've also been collecting a lot of the accessories for these cameras, such as the conversion lenses. The Nikon 9XX cameras have a neat fisheye lens. The Sony R1 has a crazy system with huge telephoto & wide angle converters that require a mount to the tripod socket. It's not very practical but fun anyway.
Thanks! I'm just finishing my R1 review as we speak, hopefully posting early next week. Do you have the R1 lens converters? I mention them in the video but don't have anything to illustrate it. Would you be able to send me photos of the camera with them mounted on a fairly plain background like a desk or sheet of wood? As for the D770, it's a model I've actually never seen in person and never reviewed the first time around, so I've had an eBay alert set on that for some time. There don't seem to be many around though! I still have the Nikon 990 and 995 to do, so may get onto those soon, although after the R1 I may squeeze in an early Canon DSLR. Anyway, glad you're enjoying them!
@@DinoBytes I do have the R1 conversion lens & mount; I can get some shots for you.
I just snagged the D770 for about $70US via eBay "Best Offer". I've had very good luck using that feature with these old cameras. It even came with a couple of batteries (one still works), AC adapter, & the lens/eyepiece covers.
@@DinoBytes I can do that.
@@photoman12001 thanks! I've received the photos, much appreciated! Would you like me to credit you in the R1 review? If so, what name? (PS - I emailed you back, but sometimes get junk-filtered...)
@@photoman12001 thanks they're perfect! Would you like me to credit you in the review, if so, which name? I've also emailed, but you may need to check your junk folder!
I had an F828. Design was great, although heavy, but picture quality not so much. TIFF files took too long to write. I actually liked the F717 better as a package. That internal zoom magic and slighter faster lens. The F717 looked very futuristic. Never tried the DSC-R1, but I think I could have loved that one because of the APS-C sensor.
I would prefer anybody to use the memory stick slot. Using several adapters to use a micro SD card is the best method for larger storage and fast read and write speeds. The CF card slot from my testing was slower on average and not to mention the biggest issue, the CF card door. The CF card door can become extremely sensitive to any push on it and will cause an error on the screen to pop up, instructing the user to open and close the door. I have no idea why Sony put a sensor on the door since the the follow up to this model, the R1, does not.
Are you suggesting a micro sd to memory stick adapter? I've never seen one! Can you recommend one that works?
Get a micro SD card to pro duo adapter. They are usually marketed as adapters for the psp but work in various other sony devices that support pro duo cards. Then buy a decent micro SD card with a minimum of 30mb write speeds. Sandisk or Samsung. Keep your larger memory stick pro duo to memory stick adapter like the one you showed in the video. The whole setup looks funky with two adapters just to use a micro sd card, but it works.
I use such an adapter. They are widely available on eBay. The camera will only take up to 32Gb.
@gregorymessimer5728 I've tried a 64gb card before, but I never actually tried filling it up to capacity.
I went from the F717 (because I loved it) to the F828 but didn't feel like it was much of a leap or warrant the change. Touched the R1 and it's literally the one!
Have you used the R1 recently? It'll be my next video...
@@DinoBytes cool look forward to it and yeah the R1 is a great camera!
Now I want a video about that 300D and how it compares to prosumer bridge cameras at the time
Yes, a head to head is in order!
Nice retro-review as usual! I would love to get my hands on one of these older F-series, but usually the prices here in my country are ways to high.
I remember a classmate having this device. It was spectacular back then. Well, the pictures still look ok today if taken right.
I wish Sony would make such cameras again. Ok, we have the RX10 series, but it seems they are a lot bulkier with their motorised lenses and so on...
I wouldn´t mind manual zoom.
BTW: Now with all these nightshot-able devices I´m eagerly waiting for your "Paranormal Activities: Brighton" movie 🤣
It's such a nice camera, I think I will explore full spectrum more, perhaps with birds, insects and flowers
Yeah, why not. I have some odd chinese digicam that also has IR full spectrum with LEDs to light that up. The IQ isn´t the best, but for fun it´s ok. It´s an odd device that works with a Nokia phone battery.
I still use F828 for IR 😊
It's great, isn't it! Do you ever do full spectrum? And what do you take photos of?
That "twisty back" thing was ultimately neither here nor there and just a novelty which never caught on and ultimately rang the death knell for this quirky camera. Was probably quite good technically but just looked and felt horrible....hence the rise of the interchangable lens DSLR...which was the future right up until this mirrorless day.
I liked it!
Twisting body is a much better option to just a moving LCD in my opinion.
Nice find for that money!
Yeah I was happy with that!
I just snagged one on eBay. Do you have any recommendations on sourcing compatible CF cards or Sony memory sticks?
See if you can find the memory stick duo card I showed in the video, or I could suggest a cf when I'm back from my eclipse travels!
I think it would be cool to photograph birds with the infrared mode sense most birds have more colors and we can see.
That's a very good idea!
I'd use full spectrum for that, or block IR and visible light and go for UV. Focusing does become a problem here though, and I'm still experimenting with it. Much bird colouration is from microstructures in the feathers, almost like light traps, which lead to iridescence, and these tend toward the shorter wavelengths. Birds eyes see more towards UV, so that's where you'd want to look. There is some pigmentation (melanin) involved as well.
I had it once. Nowadays couldn't found the proper worked one. The same could be said to the R1.
Hello. Great content, I’m an owner of this amazing camera since I was a child, but now the sensor is a little bit finicky, every time I put the zoom, the colors aren’t real, and now I’m worried to loose it, do you have any ideas to fix it ???
Thanks for reading
Glad you like the videos! I'm afraid there's no fix for age-related issues like these. The sensors and other parts do deteriorate over time and sometimes become unfixable. That's the bad news. The good news is you may be able to just buy a replacement without spending anywhere near as much as a repair.
@@DinoBytes my dad told me he can fix it. He’s an engineer and he’s an expert in electronics and he had an enterprise of that.
@@carguy8902 let me know how he gets on!
Any idea if any other cameras than this F series can shoot photos in IR night vision mode? I find that very uncommon.
btw I just got f707 and its so strange and amazing!
In theory any Sony camera with Nightshot can do it, and that includes a bunch of models, including some V series I think. BUT the only one I know which can focus to infinity after the magnet hack is the 828. Otherwise it's a case of using nightshot mode in auto with an ND and IR filter.
Nobody called them mirrorless back then. I bought a 6Mp HP in 2002 then a 9Mp Fujifilm in 2006 with a giant manual zoom.
I mean technically any camera without a mirror is mirrorless, so that also includes all phones! Today the term is really reserved for interchangeable lens cameras without mirrors though.
I remember that camera very well. It had the worst chromatic aberration (aka purple fringing) ever. From what I remember, the F828 it was quickly discontinued and replaced by the R1, which was a far better camera.
The R1 wasn´t bad, but the autofocus was horrible slow and the write-speeds were abysmal too. And it lacked video. Had it for a while. Not a bad camera, but no image stabilisation and the sloooow operation made me sell it in favor of a DSLR later.
Yes, it had lots of promise, bur didn't quite make it in practice
It's true, the CA was bad, and I mention this towards the end, but if you look at my sample images here, it's not particularly noticeable
2 for the number of minutes I laughed at "memory stick lane" when it finally clicked
Cheers!
Einfach eine GENIALES Fotoaparat!
I use mine with the adapter you have, but inside the first memory stick adapter I place another adapter that allows me to use up to a 32Gb micro SD card!
I also notice that these jpeg images retain a lot more detail when cropping in on the computer, even compared with a similar photo taken with a 20.4Mp sensor. I don't know if that has anything to do with the RGBE sensor, or the way the software handled converting it to jpeg. I would think jpeg is jpeg, once in the computer, but here we are!
Do you know which Micro sd adapter you're using? Be great if they did a full size memory stick adapter version too
It's pretty much a no brand name item. If you type in Memory Stick Duo PRO to SD adapter into Google it should come up with several buying options. Some may mention that it's a PSP adapter, I think. Maybe M2 to SD? But you'll recognize it when you see it.
I really wonder if the AV our in live view of the camera is better quality than recording video.
Well, the AV output is standard PAL or NTSC in 50i 60i, whereas the video recording should be 25 or 30p. I think the compression reduces the recording though, so ultimately the AV output may be better if you have a recorder
@@DinoBytes I'm seeing folks using external mini DVR recorders for old tape handicams to make them tapeless, and I imagine just recording live view of this camera in Real mode, with or without the IR filter, may yield lovely video results.
mind you these mini DVRs were designed for FPV drones, and its a fairly recent "hack" by creators going tapeless. So it could be a venture worth taking in this spirit and with this camera.
@@ryanleethomas its a good idea, I'd love to get hold of a mini recorder...
@@DinoBytes The one most used in this case would be an ImmersionRC Powerplay.
Nikon Coolpix 8400, 8700 or 8800 next!
If only Denis Villeneuve had known about the hack, he could have saved a pretty penny. Could you stretch that resolution over an imax screen?
It's worth a short, surely?
Damm~~~ i recently took it from my dad's house.
I honestly feel those were the days when cameras were exciting. 🤣
Definitely, and that's why I'm making videos about this era!
@@DinoBytes You're doing an amazing job mate. Keep it up.
That video quality is Blair Witch level
And that's a good thing!
@@DinoBytes I agree, definitely full of character and captures what that time was like. Thanks for keeping these interesting cameras around for us
Hi Gordon - Finally an F828 video! Nice job.
I recently ran across some photos I took out in the desert with the F828 back in 2008. They were much better than I would have thought - sharp, clear, detailed, with nice colors. I remember really having fun with that camera, taking it on many expeditions. The beast was built around that 8MP sensor and giant Zeiss lens. It inspired me to buy another one off eBay recently and play around with it. I also used to do quite a bit of IR photography with the F828 back then, but didn't know about the magnet trick. The photos are still very striking and beautiful today.
I also used to modify other Sony cameras to do IR by removing the internal blocking filter and replacing it with flat optical glass, so it could still focus. These included the F707, F717, and P8. I got a couple of evocative B & W IR photos in national juried shows as well as in a photography book from that effort.
I seem to remember someone saying the 4-color sensor helped with the naturalness of certain colors such as green? But yeah, it's a subtle difference.
For me the RGBE made no discernable difference, but the magnet hack with full focus is a game changer!
@@DinoBytes I just took a few test shots in both modes with the F828, and to my eyes the Real mode is more brownish and gives an overall darker impression just like in your shots. The Standard mode is more pleasing color-wise overal to me. However, zooming in it seemed there was more detail and dynamic range visible in the Real mode shots, especially in the bright areas and shadows. I am not going to speculate why.
damnn gordon you disappeared for 2 months
Yeah, sorry, too many new products for my main channel, plus my new travel channel! Hope you get to see some of those!
share RAW pls
Do you need a file?
@@DinoBytes Yes, please
@@DinoBytes great review! did you manage to find a copy of the original Data Converter SR 1.x? as you pointed out Lightroom support is not that great...
@@ghotz to be honest I've not looked for it yet. if I find one in the future I'll let you know!
@@DinoBytes thanks a lot and keep up the great work!
I have a DSC-V1 I would like to donate to you.
Lol
Good buy.
Lack of creativity in designs did make compact cameras boring and unexciting.
★★★★★
Everyone knows that Solarize and Sepia are the only real filters for true artists. Sorry Fuji.
Exactly
So adventurous Sony. Now their cameras are not odd but top range high performers. So fun seeing these anyway. I love my 2 A7III cameras and the 6400 and NEX 5 I had and the the RX10 and A7II also. So Gordon fun to see how Sony did it in the day.