And here I was thinking that Better help hadn't sunk their hooks into Aussie content creators yet. I really enjoy @CityMoose's content, so I really hope he thinks twice before taking their money so quickly. A BetterHelp sponsorship is the fastest way to get me to unsub and dislike the video.
@tspoon772 sure, but you can achieve the same with sponsors worth the time. If we take this logic to its conclusion you could just as easily justify advertising anything. Betterhelp is parasitic and harmful. Don't give it any support.
Moose, please don’t take sponsors from BetterHelp. In their beginning test they ask questions like “do you have severe depression?” and “do you think you’re better off dead?”. They then sell that data to advertisers who will give you antidepressant ads on RUclips or Instagram.
@@Alfredosauc but, he is producing content from within australia, so I think it'd be quite likely that he'd be bound by this law. Have you noticed that british youtubers have a square of white and black bars in the corner just before an ad? That's because those youtubers are bound by UK television advertising law, which requires advertisements and content to be segregated from each other, and that pattern reminds viewers just in case they somehow missed the sudden transition to the commercial. We noticably aren't part of the UK, but our legal system is evolved from theirs and this is an example of a local law impacting on users of an international platform
Honestly this needed to happen like 10 years ago this whole project. Crazy that it's taken this long to even get out of planning phase. And for real use to work in docklands and live in tarniet and it's literally so hard to get to the city cause of how congested the vline and werribe lines have become, this project would change everything and free up everything.
Unfortunately MM1 has a better business case and was always going to be built first and at that time RRL had just opened and that extra capacity had been provided. Unlikely to see anything until SRL east's opening. I have to stress not applying today's rail needs to what was happening a decade ago, back then a project like that would have been over kill in conjunction with RRL.
I would love to see more better access to the west, while an easterner myself the complete lack of service in the west is horrendous and needs to be focused on if we actually want to build a better city.
I enjoy these videos but they leave me always shaking my head at the reactive nature of planning in Victoria. These two projects would be welcome, but should have been completed in some form or another many years past.
Yep. We should probably have an inner city light metro by now too - kinda like what Sydney has now. Running mid capacity suburban trains through areas that need frequent high capacity service isn't ideal.
@@shraka Sydney Metro isn't a "light metro" by any common definition of the word, in fact it's actually one of the larger-scale metro lines built in recent years with 160m trains. Examples of light metro are more like Copenhagen + Vancouver + London DLR.
@@BigBlueMan118 That’s why I said ‘Kinda like’. We could have a heavy metro I guess. Either way using the suburban trains as a metro isn’t working very well.
@@shraka In what way do you think it isn't it 'working very well' though, to be clear? They outperform other Australian suburban systems on many metrics, Perth is clearly the standout for performance though. Obviously they have the Melbourne system has its faults which are slowly being ironed out and are about to get a real kick into another gear when the Metro Tunnel opens.
Building a tunnel under Fisherman's Bend and Southbank would be no mean feat. The soil there is thixotropic ni some places and very unstable. It would require very high levels of sealing. It would also require a more specialised TBM: think 'the one that dug from the French side'... The other problem for me is that I think it should go to Doncaster.
You're quite correct, and there is also the problem of a new tunnel under the City infrastructure which would also have to pass under the new Metro tunnel which is below the Loop tunnels.
Please do not take betterhelp sponsorships, this channel is great but i hate to see you sending your viewers to a service that sells data, has lied multiple times before, and especially in a field as important and delicate in therapy. I implore you to do better
I love your vid's, but these ad's are appalling. See your GP people, get a referral and Medicare will cover most if not all of the costs. Mate - you need to stop promoting this sort of rubbish - especially to vulnerable members of our society. Really disappointed here mate!!!
Disagree with BetterHelp for sure and Medicare will cover costs but the system is swamped right now, I got a referral for mental health, and I was told it would take a month to even accept/decline the referral, then face another 6 months to actually book the consultation.
"we unelectrify more lines than build lines" We only unelectrified one line (ignoring earlier complete closures such as Kew and Mont Park). But if you're talking about _kilometres_ unelectrified, then you'd have a point, given that the one unelectrified line was a long one.
@@Seurnn He's born in South Africa, lived here in Australia through his childhood and now lives in London. He's not Aussie per se, but he's definitely focused on Australian topics.
I hope this gets built as soon as possible. If Victoria stopped spending so much on roads (north east link is over-sized), there would be money to pay for public transport. In fact, we should probably implement congestion charging too, for the inner city. That would also help pay for public transport projects.
Yes, the extremely important ring road project is the problem, not the $100 billion suburban rail loop that has not had an infrastructure Australia evaluation, is predicted to not even break even on the cost benefit analysis, and will crowd out all other infrastructure projects for the next 50 years.
The various freeway expansion projects for 'victoria's big build' amount to many multiples of the cost of 'Metro' tunnel 1. So yeah, expanding the already over built freeways seems like a bad idea when public transport is so congested and under served. The only projects Vic gov should have been considering for the last 20 years are those that facilitate sub 10 minute headways off peak on all stations within 10km of the city, and reducing on peak congestion.
Yeah the metro tunnel got descoped to keep it in budget while NEL gets a massive amount of scope creep and has blown out its cost by $17 billion, enough to almost fund MM2. It's really sad
The gap between the Werribee and Sunbury/Melton lines is too big. Metro 2 should be extended to fill this gap in order to provide the west with the same level of railway coverage that the east enjoys. On the east side Metro 2 should be extended into the Doncaster area.
I think that we misunderstand the point of projects like these. We think of them as transport projects, when in fact they are housing projects in disguise. People move to places where there is infrastructure.
Why is $20B eye watering? $20B/5M ppl = $4000 per capita over the life of the project. What's the life of the project? 40 years = $100/yr/capita. 80 years = $50/yr/capita. And that's not allowing any dilution for population growth. Note this is a back-of-the-envelope cost _benefit_ , you count everyone who benefits. I'll leave any cost _recovery_ to business cases and intergovernmental horse trading.
@@noelkelly4354 assuming that all of those 5m ppl are working and paying taxes ..if melbourne wants more public transit projects it should attract more and more people to support and fund those projects
Strange. before city loop the trains crossed the CBD rather than circling back from where they came, eg Broadmeadows trains to Sandringham. Many years ago, they also had a circle line that skirted the city from Alamain across the eastern and northern suburbs to the flemington Racecourse. They closed that about the 1930s due to low patronage. Now about 100 years later they are trying to rebuild it, at a massive expence when much much of the original reservation still exists as walking paths. A much larger problem is that as the city has grown, more people and whole suburbs are not serviced by the train network, due to the radial design. They have extended a few lines, but mostly neglected the outer suburbs. There should be more lines to fill the gaps, caused by the growth. They should restore outer lines they closed decades ago as these are now in the commuter belt eg lilydale still has a train line reservation to Coldstream and Healsville. They sold the Doncaster rail line reservation to housing development, the Waverly line can now only be extended to Rowville and Listerfield via underground because they built a hi-rise building over the reservation. No new lines to the west either, despite massive growth over miles of flat green fields which would be easy and cheap to build if they had any thought at all. Bad forward planning. Bad solutions. Poor budgeting. Just a disaster.
"Many years ago, they also had a circle line that skirted the city from Alamain across the eastern and northern suburbs to the flemington Racecourse." Incorrect. There were two "circle" lines, known as the Inner Circle and Outer Circle. The former connected Royal Park to Rushall (and Merri). The latter connected Fairfield to Oakleigh. Flemington Racecourse had nothing to do with either, and there would never have been a through service from Oakleigh to Royal Park (for example). "They closed that about the 1930s due to low patronage." The Outer Circle (which opened in sections in 1891 and 1892) closed in sections from 1893 to 1897. In 1898/99 Deepdene to Ashburton reopened, and Deepene closed again in 1943. Passenger services on the Inner Circle were withdrawn in 1948. "No new lines to the west either, ..." Apart from the line through Tarneit and Wyndham Vale, although that's not much.
Metro 3 a south-north mostly underground line running near parallel to Hoddle St-Punt Rd, starting at Caulfield Stn west to Elsternwick Stn then north.
This isn't a self-truth: -the health and education sites along the SRL need a transport solution regardless -Doncaster area needs a rail connection -Melbourne needs to focus on stopping sprawl and providing attractive denser housing -there are good reasons to build large projects that transform the Melbourne rail system (which is one of the most radial in the world for a big city) into a network with interchanges and cross-city connectivity This is one reason Sydney gets almost twice as many train trips as Melbourne does because it is more useful for more types of trips at present.
The SRL isn't going to get ridership if it runs trains every 20min (which I would say be standard after our coffers have run dry). Frequency drives usership, no flashy toys. The metro 2 would have gotten unleashed the capacity and the SRL could have been a frequent 5 min BRT to help develop the business case for it. At the end of day, I'm an engineer - if the government wants to throw money at me to build a white elephant I'm still going to take it.@@BigBlueMan118
"...engineers should direct infrastructure spending and not politicians." I sympathise, but really such decisions about taxpayer funds should be in the hands of those representing the voters, which means politicians. But then we should elect good politicians.
I'm of the opinion that one of the best uses for Metro Tunnel 2 would be running V-Line trains to Geelong through the tunnel and past Werribee rather than looping them up around Sunshine. That would make the construction of the tunnel more complicated, since you would need to build an "offramp" that went from the tunnel into the main station at Southern Cross for the V-Line trains to stop, and you would need at least one passing loop inside the tunnel or at one of the underground stations, but Melbourne to Geelong is one of the busiest routes on V-Line and shaving some time off the trip would be good for passenger and train capacity.
Don't see that happening unless the line to Geelong is electrified. Running Diesel trains in an underground tunnel will require huge amounts of ventilation and extraction systems to suck the exhaust out of the tunnel, far more than if the trains are electric.
If the diesel trains are a problem, I suppose this would have to go in hand with either electrifying the line to Geelong, or using bimodal trains that can run electric where there are wires and diesel where there aren't. (I know that V-Line are obsessed with building more and more VLocities but they could always update or retrofit the design to have bimodal power).
@@lachlanmcgowan5712 bimodal trains will be introduced to NSW to replace XPT trains in a few years. It's not a bad idea. Just comes down to budget and track. Not sure about tunnel when in diesel mode but a dedicated track should be considered.
@@davidwong6682 The cost of tunnelling is always extremely high and so I wouldn't expect anyone to build a three- or four-line tunnel just to fit the extra VLine services. I think the cheapest option would be to build the underground stations with side platforms, and then have a third bidirectional non-stopping track in the middle of the station cavern. VLine services would divert through the middle track while Metro services were stopped at the platforms (you would obviously have to schedule this very carefully so trains don't crash or get stuck but it's a solvable scheduling problem). Both Sydney Metro and Melbourne Metro Tunnel 1 have been built with the majority of their underground stations using island platforms instead of side platforms, but I don't think that building an underground station with side platforms is substantially more difficult or more expensive than one with island platforms, and using side platforms inside of the station cavern is the simplest way to accomodate underground passing tracks.
Metro Tunnel 2 will be really important for the redevelopment of the Fishermen's Bend district. Hopefully we can reduce reliance on the highways and get people off the roads and onto the trains.
The more rail infrastructure the better. It will reduce road/car congestion, and move more people. I wish our tunnel boring machines could just keep on tunnelling and extend all rail to under ground. Especially after travelling on Japan's rail system, it's just so efficient. And maybe train station, platform doors to prevent anyone falling onto train tracks can be planned for the future to make every station safer.
The buses in Melbourne are few and far between and Fishermans bend is no different less than one bus an hour yet in Sydney most buses are every 10 minutes. And we have trains every few minutes including a massive metro ssystem.
This sounds awesome, but as someone not from Melbourne, would money be better spent on expanding the rail network to more under-serviced areas like the Western suburbs? Either way, I hope it all gets built. In Sydney, while our new metro extension will do it's job in easing congestion and increasing frequency in the city circle, there's still an element of frustration about spending money on building stations alongside already well-serviced areas. I'm much more inclined to expand our network beyond the CBD (and towards Parramatta)
the west is criminally underserved, but part of Melbournes problem is the inner city is a bottleneck and many (nearly all) of the suburban lines run through the inner city loop. So these new inner metro tunnel projects have to be finished first to free up capacity (by giving suburban lines their own tunnels to take them out of the congested city loop) before outer suburbs can be expanded and better served. Sydney's rail system is much better configured, without the issue of all lines intersecting in one logjam loop.
It isa spending on the west, it will allow for the west to get better service, MM1 is already doing that (while also improving service in the developing south-east)
@reubenab6005 people say the West is being undeserved which is true but in the last 10 years RRL, RRR, MM1, LXRP and MARL has/will all bring better service there and honestly it's a lot money
Sydney Metro is expanding the network beyond the CBD quite significantly: -there are 7 new stations in the NW opened just five years ago -there will be new stations at Crows Nest + Waterloo outside the City when the new extension opens up -the WSA Metro project will open 5 new stations within two years outside the City (Orchard Hills + Luddenham + Airport Business Park + Airport Terminal + Bradfield) -the Metro West project is already building 5 or 6 new stations outside the City or Parramatta/Westmead next decade (Pyrmont + The Bays + Five Dock + Burwood North + Olympic Park as a through-running station + possibly Rosehill) -there are planned extensions of all of these lines to new stations (Condell Park + Chipping Norton + Rossmore + Oran Park + Narellan + Smithfield + Prairiewood + Zetland)
This is such a transformative project, but given the state’s large debt and limited funds it might be a while before construction starts. I suspect that after the Airport Rail is completed around 2032 and the SRL East opens in 2035, this should be well underway.
If the airport line is eventually built then there could be a train frequency of every five minutes in the metro tunnel during off peak and every two and a half minutes during peak times! Pretty much half of the trains would be going between Sunbury and East Pakenham while the other half would run between the airport and Cragieburn! :)
I think city loop reconfiguration, western rail electrification and airport line should be a priority, than maybe in 30 years time we build metro tunnel 2. Than after that, then we consider building SRL.
Thanks for the info there were plans for (very)fast train service to Geelong, Ballarat, & Bendigo if that and electrification of these lines could be incorporated to future proof the money being spent that'd be a real good thing..
We have fast trains to these places already. Joan Kirner (Labor circa 1990) closed these lines for about 2 years while they built the "fast rail" services. Woops, they lied, and built services that were slower that what they replaced. It was just a maintenance project done on the cheap by turning double line tracks to single lines and flattening out a few sharp bends.
The Geelong line can't enter the CBD via a tunnel because they're diesel powered. Am I missing something? Vline trains will still have to go via Sunshine and Nth Melbourne to Southern Cross station.
People travelling to and from Geelong are probably not going to care as much as those from Melbourne's south west, about whether or not they get a new V/Line shortcut through the south western suburbs and underneath the Yarra. Of course, for those who live between Werribee and Newport (Newport in particular), the journey is painful as they're so close to the CBD but the MelbourneMetro line currently has to take a substantial and irritating detour around the Yarra. But for those travelling between Southern Cross and Geelong, the detour with having to share the Melton and Sunbury lines, doesn't really make that much difference to the length of the journey in the grand scheme of things, as the entire distance between Geelong and Melbourne CBD is already a long journey anyway. Not ideal, I agree. But I can understand why suburban lines are prioritised first. Spare a thought for Whyndam Vale and Melton residents. At this rate the lines probably won't even be electrified for atleast another decade.
@@eddielong8663 It's infuriating that stations such as Ardeer and Deer Park are still not electrified despite being so close to the city. Fully electrifying the Western suburbs should have been the top priority after Metro tunnel as these areas are rapidly growing and will expand quickly with so much space available.
they mentioned the potential for electrification towards geelong. So, that would only be if the electrification goes ahead. The distance to geelong is not very far, so I think running a new class of electric medium-distance trains express to the city and traditional suburban sets local would be a quite smart idea.
I'm sceptical of the benefit of this project. Neither the Williamstown (which shares track with Werribee) nor Hurstbridge (which shares track with Mernda) lines warrant their own dedicated tracks into the city. For a lot cheaper than 20 billion dollars you could build flyover junctions where these lines branch off and boost capacity that way. The rest of the money could go towards under-served parts of Melbourne such as Wyndham Vale, Melton, Doncaster, or Rowville.
I think part of the reason of decoupling the Mernda and Hurstbridge lines is to free up capacity for a potential Doncaster line, since the reason that can't be built is because it would cause capacity issues between Victoria Park (the station after Clifton Hill) and the CBD.
1. Werribee alone might not warrant a dedicated track pair through the city, but the plan is to extend electrification to Geelong and to run faster & more frequent trains (fastest Geelong trains currently 50-70min but MM2+electrification enables sub-40min journeytimes) which will push up demand massively. 2. Mernda is absolutely reaching capacity and forecast to grow, plus MM2 would also allow both the Mernda line to be branched to the proposed Wollert/Epping North line, and the Hurstbridge line can also be branched to Doncaster along the motorway. 3. Doncaster is planned for a stop on the SRL. 4. The site at Clifton Hill is too constrained for flyovers to be built cost-effectively and you would still have the extremely slow and painfull (40kmh) Rushall Curves, and no new station & tram interchange at Fitzroy/Carlton. 5. Electrification of Melton and Wyndham Vale is not an expensive project but will likely now be at the back of the line due to rolling stock, when the Vlocity sets begin to need replacement/overhaul then there is a very good case for replacement with electrics on its own merits.
I would leave the Clifton Hill group alone and have the 2nd metro tunnel go onto a standalone line to Doncaster via the Eastern Freeway. I think a second metro tunnel should incorporate electric express trains to Geelong, with an express stop opposite the Spirit of Tasmania terminal.
The gap between the eastern freeway was for a rail system, would be great if they could do it all the way to Doncaster, from memory the partition goes pretty much till Bulleen exit.
i think it would be a great adittion and really help with reliability and ferquecy but i cant see it happening as all infrastrcture money will get sucked into the black hole vanity project called SRL east
I'd prefer it to go under Elizabeth Street. Stops heading north, Flinders St Station, City North (between Mel-b’n Cnt & Vic Market), Mel-b'n Uni (next to Parkville Station) (then travel under MU to Elgin & Swanston travelling east-west), stopping Carlton (between Swanston and Lygon Sts), Fitzroy (between Brunswick & Smith Sts), Vic Park (under existing station) (before going along the Eastern Fwy) Chandler Hwy, Bourke Rd, Bulleen, Greythorn, (then under Doncaster Rd), Doncaster SC, Victoria St, Tunstall Sq South: Flinders Street, (underground old Port Mel-b’n line to cnr of Ingles & Williamstown Rd) Ingles St, (tunnel under Williamstown Rd) Graham St, (turn nw towards "new" development) Salmon St, (west) Todd Rd, before going to Newport, and the Werribee line. The Geelong line once electrified, could follow the same route except turning north in line with Southern Cross and heading from there to the airport. Long-term I'd put all electric services underground at Southern Cross creating another Sort of metro, and allowing a much needed expansion of V/Line services. And don't get me started on Metro 3... WTH I can't resist. Metro 3 would be a quad tunnel, and go north under Queens St. and south under the old StKilda line. Stops north, Flinders St, Vic Market (between Vic Market & Flagstaff), Parkville, (then split for Mernda (Whittlesea?) Line, and a new line to Greenvale) Mernda line (via a tunnel under Royal Parade then follow the old inner circle line) Carlton North, Fitzroy North, to Merri. New line Greenvale (under Flemington Rd), Stops, Children's Hospital, Flemington Bridge (turning west under Racecourse Rd), Newmarket, (then above ground) Mel-b’n Show Grounds, Flemington RC, Victoria Uni, (then a tunnel) Highpoint SC (south end), (redevelop the old military land opposite, with line above ground) Maribyrnong, Essendon West (tunnel) Niddrie, (skyrail to) Airport West SC, Gladstone Park, Attwood, Greenvale. South (tunnel along old StKilda line) South Mel-b’n, Albert Park (skyrail), Middle Park, StKilda (tunnel under Grey St, and Inkerman to) Balaclava, Ripponlea, Elsternwick, Gardenvale (splitting here, east tunnel under North Rd), Hawthorn Rd/Caulfield South, Ormond, Murrumbeena Rd, Warrigal Rd, Huntingdale, (skyrail) Monash Uni, Mulgrave, Jells Rd, Rowville. Extension of Sandringham line (tunnel to) Black Rock, Beaumaris, Mentone, Morrabbin Airport, Dingley Village, (skyrail) Keysborough, Dandenong South. Not to mention the Bulleen to Warrandyte to Christmas Hills line, the Newport to Mount Cottrell line, via Kingsville South, Brooklyn, (make Boundary a major Hwy/Fwy with the train line down the middle, and develop the land to Mount Cottrell. Monash Uni to Mernda (l know, I've gone stark raving mad, but i feel we should have had that level of development over my lifetime thatwe would be discussing this), Monash Uni, Huntingdale, Oakley (tunnel) Chadstone SC, Alamein line to East Camberwell, Deepdene, Harp Rd, Chandler Hwy, Alphington, Bellfield, Olympic Village/Northland, Monash Uni, Bundoora, Mill Park, Middle Gorge, Hawkstowe, Mernda, (Hazel Glen Drv, Yan Yean, Whittlesea?) Then the Frankston to Dandenong line then along Stud Rd to Bayswater... Have I forgotten anything? Oh, I agree with the Suburban Loop, and the Airport Link.
I don't think it'd be ideal to have the tunnel start on the up side of Newport. The down side has one of the worst flat junctions on the entire network and this would likely make it worse. If they do really want this tunnel properly, they'll have to shell out for underground or skyrail platforms at Newport. Edit: while I'm on ideas that'll never happen, on the other end of the tunnel it should cross over Clifton Hill instead of joining Mernda and keep going east to Doncaster East.
I wanted to watch this video as I'm interested in transport. I didn't expect a mouthful on mental health (which is important but not warranted in this space) Perhaps get your funding to support your channel from a transport associated organisation!
so upset to have to unsubscribe due to your betterhelp sponsorship. i just can’t support someone who would take money from such an awful company. i wish you well for the future.
It's about time VLine started running some of the Geelong trains through Werribee again. To travel from Geelong to Werribee takes almost an hour more than to drive the same route. Ridiculous.
Fisherman's Bend can't develop to its 80,000 workers and 80,000 residents without MM2. Trams as an interim solution would be unable to carry this many commuters during a peak hour. Neither office towers nor apartment buildings would be unable to reach financial close without MM2 underway. The next problem is that Fisherman's Bend becomes difficult to access from the north and west, requiring back-tracking westward from Southern Cross. A solution is for a new branch of MM2 along the current freight rail alignment to Sunshine, which would allow a more direct connection from the Airport, Sunbury, Ballarat and Geelong lines. The branch could then continue to either Wyndham Vale or Melton. Now that MM1 will have branches to Sunbruy and the Airport, there is insufficient capacity to also serve Melton and Wyndham Vale.
We don't need a second Metro Rail Tunnel, we can't afford the one that's been built now it's been a huge budget blowout, the same goes for the Suburban Rail Loop.
Nobody really needs this. What we need is public transport that takes people where they are most densely populated, where they want to go. but here is the kicker... AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. That is why the lack of a new station at Sth yarra (on the Metro tunnel 1 line) and the constant delay of a direct rail line (even hi speed, direct non stop) out to the airport was an *EPIC* fail. I would much rather they build a new Sth yarra station and a direct hi speed rail link, direct to the airport (rather than double the length via Sunbury of the same snails pace technology) than this 20 Billion dollar spend taking people from where they don't want to be to where they don't want to go.. It should be about the public NOT the train drivers or the Unions, or the lack of faster signalling or other means to utilise the current trains better. Surely they could run more with better signalling, engineering upgrades, less Union protocols - heck even no drivers at all.. Look at the tram system. The lines are mostly empty! And WAY underused and under utilized. To get people to use public transport they need to drastically reduce the speed taken from AB and put stations where the people are! The system needs to get SMARTER and faster rather than more and more spend. That also means a revamp of the entire public transport work ethic, and Unions and protocols - rather than throwing more and more money at the same old technology. Case in point Myki! No direct use of CC's and more than 10 yrs of iphones and we *still* can't use tap! I mean should we say anymore?! Just MO
This is good, we need it, but we also desperately need more connection between inner city suburbs that don't go through the city. We really need an orbital line - at least a tram, if not a full metro.
Trams work best for shorter, denser journeys - they're great in the CBD, and we should talk about adding some around the city's other major nodes. But for your long-distance cross-town routes, trams are... okay, but rather slow. So most people will drive instead. That's why it's preferable to use a metro or heavy rail for those routes - like the Suburban Rail Loop that they're starting on. Unfortunately, that will take forever to get built. :(
@@Nalehw A tram would only work for an internet suburban orbital - maybe from Collingwood to past north Melbourne to Footscray. I’m against most of the suburban rail loop - for now. For the same amount of tunnel we could have an inner suburban loop at more like the Brunswick or Coburg distance which would serve a lot more people and take more pressure off the city. I don’t think the suburban rail loop has been through the proper analysis either.
😅They had a circle line just like this and closed it in the 1930s. Only the Alamein line and show grounds line remain. The rest of the reservation has been built on or turned into walking tracks. The Chandler highway used the old rail bridge, which has just been replaced by a dedicated 4 lane bridge, but I think it directs the rail reservation now. Such poor planning that they failed to retain the reservation so it would be hard to restore it now, but maybe cheaper than the current tunnel proposal.
@@richlawrence4160 Yeah, you'd have to tunnel it, or eminent domain a bunch of houses - and given the political class has done everything it can to make land just ridiculously, unreasonably expensive the tunnel might be cheaper. If we used narrower, shorter carriages on some kind of lightweight metro we could save some money on the tunnelling. One of the reasons I think we should build out a new metro system rather than trying to integrate everything with our suburban trains.
I think there is something on your top lip that ... ugh ... have you ever heard of shaving? You talk about mental health, but I cannot wonder if the top lip fuzz is a symptom...
This is Victoria. The Government was never going to have a big build without Road Projects. They are only interested in massive infrastructure projects whether it be road or rail. Detail can go to blazes.
@mathewferstl7042 Doesn't cut it with me. Scope creep at nearly $10 billion and much of our Rail network is in a poor state, our bus network is mostly dreadful and our trams still operates with rusty old buses on rails. NSW and WA do it so much better.
The rich pricks in the south east who already have good light rail get a new line, you bet your arse the west should get our up and over rail system uncongested cos its all the west has as the trams stop before they get anywhere near the soith west region.
I don't even think there is a good business case for the first tunnel. Given that the Sunbury line see's barely any usage. I think it was just pork barrelling the Vietnamese communities that have been a large voting block for labor. They get a dedicated track between their two communities of Springvale and Sunshine. If Sunbury was as heavily used as Pakenham Cranbourne. It's uneven, a bunch of trains are terminating early and not even going all the way to Sunbury. Could you even imagine that? The suburban loop is moronic as well. You watch it, they will build this thing as slowly as possible. I don't imagine you'll need anything more then 3 - 4 carriage trains at best.
There are several problems with your analysis. * You're understating the usage of the Sunbury line. It may not be as much as the Dandenong line, but it's more than "barely any". * Unlike the suburban rail loop, it's had plenty of study from transport planners and, from memory, both parties supported it. * Some (perhaps many) of the trains will terminate at West Footscray, failing to reach any Vietnamese community in Sunshine. * Part of the plan was for many of the services to go to the airport. Add those into the mix, and the imbalance will be significantly reduced. I don't need to imagine a bunch of trains not going all the way. It happens now. And to a greater or lesser extent, it happens on all lines. That's normal.
@@PJRayment you cannot compare the Sunbury line to Cranbourne and Pakenham. The south east corridor is exceptional in numbers. Without it, no tunnel. The Sunbury line cannot possibly add any value. I would argue that you could probably add up all the lines on the West side of the city and they wouldn't fill the dual track tunnel. And future expansion won't change this. Airport rail is dumb, I have never seen it done well. There arent any good examples.
@@berenscott8999 You can compare any two things! I can compare a car with a train if I want. Comparing two things doesn't mean that they are the same. I never claimed that the Sunbury line was comparable to the Dandenong line; in fact I said the opposite. I disagreed with you caricature of how little traffic there is on the Sunbury line, and your conclusions about why it was built. Whether the airport line is dumb or not is beside the point I was making, which is that when you add in the airport services, the imbalance is greatly reduced. As for it being dumb, however, I don't have experience of many, but what makes you think that there aren't any good examples? Also, why won't future expansion change things? The fact is that the MURL was built because of the east-west imbalance, and future expansion in the west _has_ changed that by greatly reducing the imbalance.
Please don't take sponsorships from better help. They sell users personal information.
They’re a horrible business, profiting off people’s misery
Was going to say this
And here I was thinking that Better help hadn't sunk their hooks into Aussie content creators yet. I really enjoy @CityMoose's content, so I really hope he thinks twice before taking their money so quickly. A BetterHelp sponsorship is the fastest way to get me to unsub and dislike the video.
You can just skip through the ad. No one is forcing you to watch it and it allows him to make some money back for the effort he puts into the video.
@tspoon772 sure, but you can achieve the same with sponsors worth the time. If we take this logic to its conclusion you could just as easily justify advertising anything. Betterhelp is parasitic and harmful. Don't give it any support.
Moose, please don’t take sponsors from BetterHelp. In their beginning test they ask questions like “do you have severe depression?” and “do you think you’re better off dead?”. They then sell that data to advertisers who will give you antidepressant ads on RUclips or Instagram.
"Advertising prescription medicines to consumers is not permitted under the Therapeutic Goods Act 1989."
@@DxsPro Australia is not the only country which Better Help operates in, and Australia is not the only country from which CityMoose draws viewers
@@Alfredosauc valid if true
@@Alfredosauc but, he is producing content from within australia, so I think it'd be quite likely that he'd be bound by this law.
Have you noticed that british youtubers have a square of white and black bars in the corner just before an ad? That's because those youtubers are bound by UK television advertising law, which requires advertisements and content to be segregated from each other, and that pattern reminds viewers just in case they somehow missed the sudden transition to the commercial.
We noticably aren't part of the UK, but our legal system is evolved from theirs and this is an example of a local law impacting on users of an international platform
Honestly this needed to happen like 10 years ago this whole project. Crazy that it's taken this long to even get out of planning phase. And for real use to work in docklands and live in tarniet and it's literally so hard to get to the city cause of how congested the vline and werribe lines have become, this project would change everything and free up everything.
For sure. We spent the last 40 years wasting money on over built freeways rather than mass transit.
Unfortunately MM1 has a better business case and was always going to be built first and at that time RRL had just opened and that extra capacity had been provided. Unlikely to see anything until SRL east's opening. I have to stress not applying today's rail needs to what was happening a decade ago, back then a project like that would have been over kill in conjunction with RRL.
@@shrakaand look how that urban growth model has turned out for us. Poorly
I would love to see more better access to the west, while an easterner myself the complete lack of service in the west is horrendous and needs to be focused on if we actually want to build a better city.
I enjoy these videos but they leave me always shaking my head at the reactive nature of planning in Victoria. These two projects would be welcome, but should have been completed in some form or another many years past.
Yep. We should probably have an inner city light metro by now too - kinda like what Sydney has now. Running mid capacity suburban trains through areas that need frequent high capacity service isn't ideal.
@@shraka Sydney Metro isn't a "light metro" by any common definition of the word, in fact it's actually one of the larger-scale metro lines built in recent years with 160m trains. Examples of light metro are more like Copenhagen + Vancouver + London DLR.
@@BigBlueMan118 That’s why I said ‘Kinda like’. We could have a heavy metro I guess. Either way using the suburban trains as a metro isn’t working very well.
@@shraka In what way do you think it isn't it 'working very well' though, to be clear? They outperform other Australian suburban systems on many metrics, Perth is clearly the standout for performance though. Obviously they have the Melbourne system has its faults which are slowly being ironed out and are about to get a real kick into another gear when the Metro Tunnel opens.
Who cares at least they're doing it now. look at SOUTH AUSTRALIA lol now that's a failed state
Building a tunnel under Fisherman's Bend and Southbank would be no mean feat. The soil there is thixotropic ni some places and very unstable. It would require very high levels of sealing. It would also require a more specialised TBM: think 'the one that dug from the French side'...
The other problem for me is that I think it should go to Doncaster.
You're quite correct, and there is also the problem of a new tunnel under the City infrastructure which would also have to pass under the new Metro tunnel which is below the Loop tunnels.
TALK TO YOUR GP DONT USE A THIRD PARTY TO SEEK MEDICAL HELP
Please do not take betterhelp sponsorships, this channel is great but i hate to see you sending your viewers to a service that sells data, has lied multiple times before, and especially in a field as important and delicate in therapy. I implore you to do better
I love your vid's, but these ad's are appalling. See your GP people, get a referral and Medicare will cover most if not all of the costs. Mate - you need to stop promoting this sort of rubbish - especially to vulnerable members of our society. Really disappointed here mate!!!
Disagree with BetterHelp for sure and Medicare will cover costs but the system is swamped right now, I got a referral for mental health, and I was told it would take a month to even accept/decline the referral, then face another 6 months to actually book the consultation.
when melbourne proposes literally anything its either not going to happen or will get delayed for 50+ years
we unelectrify more lines than build lines
We will have flying cars before these projects are built
"we unelectrify more lines than build lines"
We only unelectrified one line (ignoring earlier complete closures such as Kew and Mont Park).
But if you're talking about _kilometres_ unelectrified, then you'd have a point, given that the one unelectrified line was a long one.
I'm a long time viewer but I won't be if you keep taking betterhelp sponserships
Same here. I want to support small and upcoming Aussie channels, but not if they choose money over their audience's wellbeing.
Me too.
@@shakeelali20 I don't think he's Australian
@@Seurnn He's born in South Africa, lived here in Australia through his childhood and now lives in London. He's not Aussie per se, but he's definitely focused on Australian topics.
I hope this gets built as soon as possible. If Victoria stopped spending so much on roads (north east link is over-sized), there would be money to pay for public transport. In fact, we should probably implement congestion charging too, for the inner city. That would also help pay for public transport projects.
Yes, the extremely important ring road project is the problem, not the $100 billion suburban rail loop that has not had an infrastructure Australia evaluation, is predicted to not even break even on the cost benefit analysis, and will crowd out all other infrastructure projects for the next 50 years.
The various freeway expansion projects for 'victoria's big build' amount to many multiples of the cost of 'Metro' tunnel 1. So yeah, expanding the already over built freeways seems like a bad idea when public transport is so congested and under served. The only projects Vic gov should have been considering for the last 20 years are those that facilitate sub 10 minute headways off peak on all stations within 10km of the city, and reducing on peak congestion.
Yeah the metro tunnel got descoped to keep it in budget while NEL gets a massive amount of scope creep and has blown out its cost by $17 billion, enough to almost fund MM2. It's really sad
@@shrakathat's the thing about Labor, they invest in road and rail.
@@mathewferstl7042 They haven’t invested much in rail at all compared to roads, despite all the massive downsides to freeways and roads in general.
Immediate dislike when I saw BetterHelp in the description. Please do Better Research before choosing a sponsor.
Honestly it pays the bills so...
@@extragjakovar So does robbing the elderly with gift card scams.
Tell capitalism and the "free" market
@@extragjakovar
"Tell capitalism and the "free" market"
Capitalism doesn't mean ignoring morality.
@@PJRayment apparently that's not not the case according to some trusted and top secret sources.
The gap between the Werribee and Sunbury/Melton lines is too big. Metro 2 should be extended to fill this gap in order to provide the west with the same level of railway coverage that the east enjoys. On the east side Metro 2 should be extended into the Doncaster area.
I think that we misunderstand the point of projects like these. We think of them as transport projects, when in fact they are housing projects in disguise. People move to places where there is infrastructure.
It's flabbergasting how long this tunnel has taken and the fact there's still no airport rail
Why is $20B eye watering? $20B/5M ppl = $4000 per capita over the life of the project. What's the life of the project? 40 years = $100/yr/capita. 80 years = $50/yr/capita. And that's not allowing any dilution for population growth. Note this is a back-of-the-envelope cost _benefit_ , you count everyone who benefits. I'll leave any cost _recovery_ to business cases and intergovernmental horse trading.
@@noelkelly4354 assuming that all of those 5m ppl are working and paying taxes ..if melbourne wants more public transit projects it should attract more and more people to support and fund those projects
Strange. before city loop the trains crossed the CBD rather than circling back from where they came, eg Broadmeadows trains to Sandringham. Many years ago, they also had a circle line that skirted the city from Alamain across the eastern and northern suburbs to the flemington Racecourse. They closed that about the 1930s due to low patronage. Now about 100 years later they are trying to rebuild it, at a massive expence when much much of the original reservation still exists as walking paths. A much larger problem is that as the city has grown, more people and whole suburbs are not serviced by the train network, due to the radial design. They have extended a few lines, but mostly neglected the outer suburbs. There should be more lines to fill the gaps, caused by the growth. They should restore outer lines they closed decades ago as these are now in the commuter belt eg lilydale still has a train line reservation to Coldstream and Healsville. They sold the Doncaster rail line reservation to housing development, the Waverly line can now only be extended to Rowville and Listerfield via underground because they built a hi-rise building over the reservation. No new lines to the west either, despite massive growth over miles of flat green fields which would be easy and cheap to build if they had any thought at all. Bad forward planning. Bad solutions. Poor budgeting. Just a disaster.
"Many years ago, they also had a circle line that skirted the city from Alamain across the eastern and northern suburbs to the flemington Racecourse."
Incorrect. There were two "circle" lines, known as the Inner Circle and Outer Circle. The former connected Royal Park to Rushall (and Merri). The latter connected Fairfield to Oakleigh. Flemington Racecourse had nothing to do with either, and there would never have been a through service from Oakleigh to Royal Park (for example).
"They closed that about the 1930s due to low patronage."
The Outer Circle (which opened in sections in 1891 and 1892) closed in sections from 1893 to 1897. In 1898/99 Deepdene to Ashburton reopened, and Deepene closed again in 1943.
Passenger services on the Inner Circle were withdrawn in 1948.
"No new lines to the west either, ..."
Apart from the line through Tarneit and Wyndham Vale, although that's not much.
Metro 3 a south-north mostly underground line running near parallel to Hoddle St-Punt Rd, starting at Caulfield Stn west to Elsternwick Stn then north.
I personally believe something like this should be prioritised over SRL. Great video.
Won't be built, the consequence of prioritising the SRL. Metro 2 shows why engineers should direct infrastructure spending and not politicians.
This isn't a self-truth:
-the health and education sites along the SRL need a transport solution regardless
-Doncaster area needs a rail connection
-Melbourne needs to focus on stopping sprawl and providing attractive denser housing
-there are good reasons to build large projects that transform the Melbourne rail system (which is one of the most radial in the world for a big city) into a network with interchanges and cross-city connectivity
This is one reason Sydney gets almost twice as many train trips as Melbourne does because it is more useful for more types of trips at present.
The SRL isn't going to get ridership if it runs trains every 20min (which I would say be standard after our coffers have run dry). Frequency drives usership, no flashy toys. The metro 2 would have gotten unleashed the capacity and the SRL could have been a frequent 5 min BRT to help develop the business case for it. At the end of day, I'm an engineer - if the government wants to throw money at me to build a white elephant I'm still going to take it.@@BigBlueMan118
"...engineers should direct infrastructure spending and not politicians."
I sympathise, but really such decisions about taxpayer funds should be in the hands of those representing the voters, which means politicians. But then we should elect good politicians.
@@BigBlueMan118 Doncaster is getting a dedicated Busway right into the city. It will be much more convenient than using the proposed SRL station.
@@BigBlueMan118 Yes why not a high frequency double decker bus network like the Superloop in London.
I'm of the opinion that one of the best uses for Metro Tunnel 2 would be running V-Line trains to Geelong through the tunnel and past Werribee rather than looping them up around Sunshine. That would make the construction of the tunnel more complicated, since you would need to build an "offramp" that went from the tunnel into the main station at Southern Cross for the V-Line trains to stop, and you would need at least one passing loop inside the tunnel or at one of the underground stations, but Melbourne to Geelong is one of the busiest routes on V-Line and shaving some time off the trip would be good for passenger and train capacity.
Don't see that happening unless the line to Geelong is electrified. Running Diesel trains in an underground tunnel will require huge amounts of ventilation and extraction systems to suck the exhaust out of the tunnel, far more than if the trains are electric.
One problem, diesel trains inside long tunnels don't go well together. U might as well electrify the line. A lot better for our health too.
If the diesel trains are a problem, I suppose this would have to go in hand with either electrifying the line to Geelong, or using bimodal trains that can run electric where there are wires and diesel where there aren't. (I know that V-Line are obsessed with building more and more VLocities but they could always update or retrofit the design to have bimodal power).
@@lachlanmcgowan5712 bimodal trains will be introduced to NSW to replace XPT trains in a few years. It's not a bad idea. Just comes down to budget and track. Not sure about tunnel when in diesel mode but a dedicated track should be considered.
@@davidwong6682 The cost of tunnelling is always extremely high and so I wouldn't expect anyone to build a three- or four-line tunnel just to fit the extra VLine services. I think the cheapest option would be to build the underground stations with side platforms, and then have a third bidirectional non-stopping track in the middle of the station cavern. VLine services would divert through the middle track while Metro services were stopped at the platforms (you would obviously have to schedule this very carefully so trains don't crash or get stuck but it's a solvable scheduling problem).
Both Sydney Metro and Melbourne Metro Tunnel 1 have been built with the majority of their underground stations using island platforms instead of side platforms, but I don't think that building an underground station with side platforms is substantially more difficult or more expensive than one with island platforms, and using side platforms inside of the station cavern is the simplest way to accomodate underground passing tracks.
Metro Tunnel 2 will be really important for the redevelopment of the Fishermen's Bend district. Hopefully we can reduce reliance on the highways and get people off the roads and onto the trains.
The more rail infrastructure the better. It will reduce road/car congestion, and move more people. I wish our tunnel boring machines could just keep on tunnelling and extend all rail to under ground. Especially after travelling on Japan's rail system, it's just so efficient. And maybe train station, platform doors to prevent anyone falling onto train tracks can be planned for the future to make every station safer.
The buses in Melbourne are few and far between and Fishermans bend is no different less than one bus an hour yet in Sydney most buses are every 10 minutes. And we have trains every few minutes including a massive metro ssystem.
This sounds awesome, but as someone not from Melbourne, would money be better spent on expanding the rail network to more under-serviced areas like the Western suburbs? Either way, I hope it all gets built. In Sydney, while our new metro extension will do it's job in easing congestion and increasing frequency in the city circle, there's still an element of frustration about spending money on building stations alongside already well-serviced areas. I'm much more inclined to expand our network beyond the CBD (and towards Parramatta)
the west is criminally underserved, but part of Melbournes problem is the inner city is a bottleneck and many (nearly all) of the suburban lines run through the inner city loop. So these new inner metro tunnel projects have to be finished first to free up capacity (by giving suburban lines their own tunnels to take them out of the congested city loop) before outer suburbs can be expanded and better served.
Sydney's rail system is much better configured, without the issue of all lines intersecting in one logjam loop.
It isa spending on the west, it will allow for the west to get better service, MM1 is already doing that (while also improving service in the developing south-east)
Need more capacity first where will they go?
@reubenab6005 people say the West is being undeserved which is true but in the last 10 years RRL, RRR, MM1, LXRP and MARL has/will all bring better service there and honestly it's a lot money
Sydney Metro is expanding the network beyond the CBD quite significantly:
-there are 7 new stations in the NW opened just five years ago
-there will be new stations at Crows Nest + Waterloo outside the City when the new extension opens up
-the WSA Metro project will open 5 new stations within two years outside the City (Orchard Hills + Luddenham + Airport Business Park + Airport Terminal + Bradfield)
-the Metro West project is already building 5 or 6 new stations outside the City or Parramatta/Westmead next decade (Pyrmont + The Bays + Five Dock + Burwood North + Olympic Park as a through-running station + possibly Rosehill)
-there are planned extensions of all of these lines to new stations (Condell Park + Chipping Norton + Rossmore + Oran Park + Narellan + Smithfield + Prairiewood + Zetland)
This is such a transformative project, but given the state’s large debt and limited funds it might be a while before construction starts. I suspect that after the Airport Rail is completed around 2032 and the SRL East opens in 2035, this should be well underway.
If the airport line is eventually built then there could be a train frequency of every five minutes in the metro tunnel during off peak and every two and a half minutes during peak times! Pretty much half of the trains would be going between Sunbury and East Pakenham while the other half would run between the airport and Cragieburn! :)
Not a better help sponsor.
I think city loop reconfiguration, western rail electrification and airport line should be a priority, than maybe in 30 years time we build metro tunnel 2. Than after that, then we consider building SRL.
Always interesting to see a successor project proposed before its predecessor even opens. Here's looking at you, Crossrail 2 😄
Thanks for the info there were plans for (very)fast train service to Geelong, Ballarat, & Bendigo if that and electrification of these lines could be incorporated to future proof the money being spent that'd be a real good thing..
We have fast trains to these places already. Joan Kirner (Labor circa 1990) closed these lines for about 2 years while they built the "fast rail" services. Woops, they lied, and built services that were slower that what they replaced. It was just a maintenance project done on the cheap by turning double line tracks to single lines and flattening out a few sharp bends.
Yes please
Just one thing, it's good to know total distance and how much of any new line is above and below ground?
Great video!
What station are you most keen to visit?
The Geelong line can't enter the CBD via a tunnel because they're diesel powered. Am I missing something? Vline trains will still have to go via Sunshine and Nth Melbourne to Southern Cross station.
People travelling to and from Geelong are probably not going to care as much as those from Melbourne's south west, about whether or not they get a new V/Line shortcut through the south western suburbs and underneath the Yarra.
Of course, for those who live between Werribee and Newport (Newport in particular), the journey is painful as they're so close to the CBD but the MelbourneMetro line currently has to take a substantial and irritating detour around the Yarra. But for those travelling between Southern Cross and Geelong, the detour with having to share the Melton and Sunbury lines, doesn't really make that much difference to the length of the journey in the grand scheme of things, as the entire distance between Geelong and Melbourne CBD is already a long journey anyway.
Not ideal, I agree. But I can understand why suburban lines are prioritised first. Spare a thought for Whyndam Vale and Melton residents. At this rate the lines probably won't even be electrified for atleast another decade.
@@eddielong8663 It's infuriating that stations such as Ardeer and Deer Park are still not electrified despite being so close to the city. Fully electrifying the Western suburbs should have been the top priority after Metro tunnel as these areas are rapidly growing and will expand quickly with so much space available.
they mentioned the potential for electrification towards geelong. So, that would only be if the electrification goes ahead.
The distance to geelong is not very far, so I think running a new class of electric medium-distance trains express to the city and traditional suburban sets local would be a quite smart idea.
I'm sceptical of the benefit of this project. Neither the Williamstown (which shares track with Werribee) nor Hurstbridge (which shares track with Mernda) lines warrant their own dedicated tracks into the city. For a lot cheaper than 20 billion dollars you could build flyover junctions where these lines branch off and boost capacity that way. The rest of the money could go towards under-served parts of Melbourne such as Wyndham Vale, Melton, Doncaster, or Rowville.
I think part of the reason of decoupling the Mernda and Hurstbridge lines is to free up capacity for a potential Doncaster line, since the reason that can't be built is because it would cause capacity issues between Victoria Park (the station after Clifton Hill) and the CBD.
@@tonydarcy7475 as I mentioned in my comment I think we should invest in a rail line to Doncaster but may as well put that into "MM2"
1. Werribee alone might not warrant a dedicated track pair through the city, but the plan is to extend electrification to Geelong and to run faster & more frequent trains (fastest Geelong trains currently 50-70min but MM2+electrification enables sub-40min journeytimes) which will push up demand massively.
2. Mernda is absolutely reaching capacity and forecast to grow, plus MM2 would also allow both the Mernda line to be branched to the proposed Wollert/Epping North line, and the Hurstbridge line can also be branched to Doncaster along the motorway.
3. Doncaster is planned for a stop on the SRL.
4. The site at Clifton Hill is too constrained for flyovers to be built cost-effectively and you would still have the extremely slow and painfull (40kmh) Rushall Curves, and no new station & tram interchange at Fitzroy/Carlton.
5. Electrification of Melton and Wyndham Vale is not an expensive project but will likely now be at the back of the line due to rolling stock, when the Vlocity sets begin to need replacement/overhaul then there is a very good case for replacement with electrics on its own merits.
I would leave the Clifton Hill group alone and have the 2nd metro tunnel go onto a standalone line to Doncaster via the Eastern Freeway.
I think a second metro tunnel should incorporate electric express trains to Geelong, with an express stop opposite the Spirit of Tasmania terminal.
The gap between the eastern freeway was for a rail system, would be great if they could do it all the way to Doncaster, from memory the partition goes pretty much till Bulleen exit.
i think it would be a great adittion and really help with reliability and ferquecy but i cant see it happening as all infrastrcture money will get sucked into the black hole vanity project called SRL east
Probably should upgrade what we have. It would be a fantastic project but in its current form, the metro network encourages cars sales.
Hmm I dunno.
I can’t help but think that this basic alignment might be better as a metro line.
This would be soooo good!
I'd prefer it to go under Elizabeth Street.
Stops heading north, Flinders St Station, City North (between Mel-b’n Cnt & Vic Market), Mel-b'n Uni (next to Parkville Station) (then travel under MU to Elgin & Swanston travelling east-west), stopping Carlton (between Swanston and Lygon Sts), Fitzroy (between Brunswick & Smith Sts), Vic Park (under existing station) (before going along the Eastern Fwy) Chandler Hwy, Bourke Rd, Bulleen, Greythorn, (then under Doncaster Rd), Doncaster SC, Victoria St, Tunstall Sq
South: Flinders Street, (underground old Port Mel-b’n line to cnr of Ingles & Williamstown Rd) Ingles St, (tunnel under Williamstown Rd) Graham St, (turn nw towards "new" development) Salmon St, (west) Todd Rd, before going to Newport, and the Werribee line.
The Geelong line once electrified, could follow the same route except turning north in line with Southern Cross and heading from there to the airport.
Long-term I'd put all electric services underground at Southern Cross creating another Sort of metro, and allowing a much needed expansion of V/Line services.
And don't get me started on Metro 3... WTH I can't resist.
Metro 3 would be a quad tunnel, and go north under Queens St. and south under the old StKilda line. Stops north, Flinders St, Vic Market (between Vic Market & Flagstaff), Parkville, (then split for Mernda (Whittlesea?) Line, and a new line to Greenvale) Mernda line (via a tunnel under Royal Parade then follow the old inner circle line) Carlton North, Fitzroy North, to Merri. New line Greenvale (under Flemington Rd), Stops, Children's Hospital, Flemington Bridge (turning west under Racecourse Rd), Newmarket, (then above ground) Mel-b’n Show Grounds, Flemington RC, Victoria Uni, (then a tunnel) Highpoint SC (south end), (redevelop the old military land opposite, with line above ground) Maribyrnong, Essendon West (tunnel) Niddrie, (skyrail to) Airport West SC, Gladstone Park, Attwood, Greenvale.
South (tunnel along old StKilda line) South Mel-b’n, Albert Park (skyrail), Middle Park, StKilda (tunnel under Grey St, and Inkerman to) Balaclava, Ripponlea, Elsternwick, Gardenvale (splitting here, east tunnel under North Rd), Hawthorn Rd/Caulfield South, Ormond, Murrumbeena Rd, Warrigal Rd, Huntingdale, (skyrail) Monash Uni, Mulgrave, Jells Rd, Rowville.
Extension of Sandringham line (tunnel to) Black Rock, Beaumaris, Mentone, Morrabbin Airport, Dingley Village, (skyrail) Keysborough, Dandenong South.
Not to mention the Bulleen to Warrandyte to Christmas Hills line, the Newport to Mount Cottrell line, via Kingsville South, Brooklyn, (make Boundary a major Hwy/Fwy with the train line down the middle, and develop the land to Mount Cottrell. Monash Uni to Mernda (l know, I've gone stark raving mad, but i feel we should have had that level of development over my lifetime thatwe would be discussing this), Monash Uni, Huntingdale, Oakley (tunnel) Chadstone SC, Alamein line to East Camberwell, Deepdene, Harp Rd, Chandler Hwy, Alphington, Bellfield, Olympic Village/Northland, Monash Uni, Bundoora, Mill Park, Middle Gorge, Hawkstowe, Mernda, (Hazel Glen Drv, Yan Yean, Whittlesea?)
Then the Frankston to Dandenong line then along Stud Rd to Bayswater...
Have I forgotten anything?
Oh, I agree with the Suburban Loop, and the Airport Link.
do both do the cheaper one first while you build the morecomplex second cross city tunnel.
I don't think it'd be ideal to have the tunnel start on the up side of Newport. The down side has one of the worst flat junctions on the entire network and this would likely make it worse. If they do really want this tunnel properly, they'll have to shell out for underground or skyrail platforms at Newport.
Edit: while I'm on ideas that'll never happen, on the other end of the tunnel it should cross over Clifton Hill instead of joining Mernda and keep going east to Doncaster East.
I wanted to watch this video as I'm interested in transport. I didn't expect a mouthful on mental health (which is important but not warranted in this space) Perhaps get your funding to support your channel from a transport associated organisation!
I want metro tunnel 2 so bad
so upset to have to unsubscribe due to your betterhelp sponsorship. i just can’t support someone who would take money from such an awful company. i wish you well for the future.
It's about time VLine started running some of the Geelong trains through Werribee again. To travel from Geelong to Werribee takes almost an hour more than to drive the same route. Ridiculous.
Why? The Newport route has huge pinchpoints. An hour more? Your are exaggerating.
There were also plans to put a Disneyland in that industrial area
Fisherman's Bend can't develop to its 80,000 workers and 80,000 residents without MM2. Trams as an interim solution would be unable to carry this many commuters during a peak hour. Neither office towers nor apartment buildings would be unable to reach financial close without MM2 underway.
The next problem is that Fisherman's Bend becomes difficult to access from the north and west, requiring back-tracking westward from Southern Cross. A solution is for a new branch of MM2 along the current freight rail alignment to Sunshine, which would allow a more direct connection from the Airport, Sunbury, Ballarat and Geelong lines. The branch could then continue to either Wyndham Vale or Melton. Now that MM1 will have branches to Sunbruy and the Airport, there is insufficient capacity to also serve Melton and Wyndham Vale.
Yes because the State Government has taken the easy option and added the Airport branch to MM1.
Seriously????? Betterhelp???? so reckless!
it should serve the bnorth melbour stadium and the huge university.
We don't need a second Metro Rail Tunnel, we can't afford the one that's been built now it's been a huge budget blowout, the same goes for the Suburban Rail Loop.
That would be amazing!
Great video! Thanks!
May we get the first one pliz.
You are asking the wrong question. Does Melbourne need to keep importing more customers?
Better health has a terrible history.
I hope we are getting a second tunnel since they have already spent billions building it
Melbourne metro second channel station will be built
Nobody really needs this. What we need is public transport that takes people where they are most densely populated, where they want to go. but here is the kicker... AS FAST AS POSSIBLE. That is why the lack of a new station at Sth yarra (on the Metro tunnel 1 line) and the constant delay of a direct rail line (even hi speed, direct non stop) out to the airport was an *EPIC* fail. I would much rather they build a new Sth yarra station and a direct hi speed rail link, direct to the airport (rather than double the length via Sunbury of the same snails pace technology) than this 20 Billion dollar spend taking people from where they don't want to be to where they don't want to go.. It should be about the public NOT the train drivers or the Unions, or the lack of faster signalling or other means to utilise the current trains better. Surely they could run more with better signalling, engineering upgrades, less Union protocols - heck even no drivers at all.. Look at the tram system. The lines are mostly empty! And WAY underused and under utilized. To get people to use public transport they need to drastically reduce the speed taken from AB and put stations where the people are! The system needs to get SMARTER and faster rather than more and more spend. That also means a revamp of the entire public transport work ethic, and Unions and protocols - rather than throwing more and more money at the same old technology. Case in point Myki! No direct use of CC's and more than 10 yrs of iphones and we *still* can't use tap! I mean should we say anymore?! Just MO
Will they finally make an airport rail link lol
BetterHelp aint it, chief.
This is good, we need it, but we also desperately need more connection between inner city suburbs that don't go through the city. We really need an orbital line - at least a tram, if not a full metro.
Trams work best for shorter, denser journeys - they're great in the CBD, and we should talk about adding some around the city's other major nodes.
But for your long-distance cross-town routes, trams are... okay, but rather slow. So most people will drive instead. That's why it's preferable to use a metro or heavy rail for those routes - like the Suburban Rail Loop that they're starting on. Unfortunately, that will take forever to get built. :(
@@Nalehw A tram would only work for an internet suburban orbital - maybe from Collingwood to past north Melbourne to Footscray. I’m against most of the suburban rail loop - for now. For the same amount of tunnel we could have an inner suburban loop at more like the Brunswick or Coburg distance which would serve a lot more people and take more pressure off the city. I don’t think the suburban rail loop has been through the proper analysis either.
@@shraka I agree that an inner loop seems like a better value proposition.
😅They had a circle line just like this and closed it in the 1930s. Only the Alamein line and show grounds line remain. The rest of the reservation has been built on or turned into walking tracks. The Chandler highway used the old rail bridge, which has just been replaced by a dedicated 4 lane bridge, but I think it directs the rail reservation now. Such poor planning that they failed to retain the reservation so it would be hard to restore it now, but maybe cheaper than the current tunnel proposal.
@@richlawrence4160 Yeah, you'd have to tunnel it, or eminent domain a bunch of houses - and given the political class has done everything it can to make land just ridiculously, unreasonably expensive the tunnel might be cheaper.
If we used narrower, shorter carriages on some kind of lightweight metro we could save some money on the tunnelling. One of the reasons I think we should build out a new metro system rather than trying to integrate everything with our suburban trains.
So this is an express tunnel then
I think Melbourne would do better to have a Metro tunnel 2 rather than this silly outer circle line….
I cant see a profitable business case for this. The length is just too long, it'd take decades and the cost isnt worth thinking about.
it will be ready in 2060
@@aymanla471 that seems too early, maybe 2080....?
@@bradw8964 Believe that if it entertains you.
Clicking out now. I will not watch any RUclips content that takes BetterHelp money
Fisherman's Benders
I think there is something on your top lip that ... ugh ... have you ever heard of shaving? You talk about mental health, but I cannot wonder if the top lip fuzz is a symptom...
the north east link couldve funded MM2 and a wollert train line. Such a shame
This is Victoria. The Government was never going to have a big build without Road Projects. They are only interested in massive infrastructure projects whether it be road or rail. Detail can go to blazes.
@@mjcats2011 NEL is needed, but it's scope has gone out of control which is a massive shame
@mathewferstl7042 Doesn't cut it with me. Scope creep at nearly $10 billion and much of our Rail network is in a poor state, our bus network is mostly dreadful and our trams still operates with rusty old buses on rails.
NSW and WA do it so much better.
@@mjcats2011 You can thank the M80 and eastern freeway "upgrades" for that huge spike in cost from 16 (originally 7) to 26 billion :(
@@mathewferstl7042 Yeah and the Feds just hand over $9 Billion for massive scope creep. That could have funded the WRP and the Somerton Link.
Victoria is broke, they don't have 20B to spare for this.
Can't stop looking at his moving eyebrows and tilting head
The rich pricks in the south east who already have good light rail get a new line, you bet your arse the west should get our up and over rail system uncongested cos its all the west has as the trams stop before they get anywhere near the soith west region.
Why are you talking like a cad from 1941?
Victoria bites off more than we can chew
I don't even think there is a good business case for the first tunnel. Given that the Sunbury line see's barely any usage. I think it was just pork barrelling the Vietnamese communities that have been a large voting block for labor. They get a dedicated track between their two communities of Springvale and Sunshine. If Sunbury was as heavily used as Pakenham Cranbourne. It's uneven, a bunch of trains are terminating early and not even going all the way to Sunbury. Could you even imagine that?
The suburban loop is moronic as well. You watch it, they will build this thing as slowly as possible. I don't imagine you'll need anything more then 3 - 4 carriage trains at best.
There are several problems with your analysis.
* You're understating the usage of the Sunbury line. It may not be as much as the Dandenong line, but it's more than "barely any".
* Unlike the suburban rail loop, it's had plenty of study from transport planners and, from memory, both parties supported it.
* Some (perhaps many) of the trains will terminate at West Footscray, failing to reach any Vietnamese community in Sunshine.
* Part of the plan was for many of the services to go to the airport. Add those into the mix, and the imbalance will be significantly reduced.
I don't need to imagine a bunch of trains not going all the way. It happens now. And to a greater or lesser extent, it happens on all lines. That's normal.
@@PJRayment you cannot compare the Sunbury line to Cranbourne and Pakenham. The south east corridor is exceptional in numbers. Without it, no tunnel.
The Sunbury line cannot possibly add any value. I would argue that you could probably add up all the lines on the West side of the city and they wouldn't fill the dual track tunnel. And future expansion won't change this. Airport rail is dumb, I have never seen it done well. There arent any good examples.
@@berenscott8999
You can compare any two things! I can compare a car with a train if I want. Comparing two things doesn't mean that they are the same. I never claimed that the Sunbury line was comparable to the Dandenong line; in fact I said the opposite. I disagreed with you caricature of how little traffic there is on the Sunbury line, and your conclusions about why it was built.
Whether the airport line is dumb or not is beside the point I was making, which is that when you add in the airport services, the imbalance is greatly reduced.
As for it being dumb, however, I don't have experience of many, but what makes you think that there aren't any good examples?
Also, why won't future expansion change things? The fact is that the MURL was built because of the east-west imbalance, and future expansion in the west _has_ changed that by greatly reducing the imbalance.