So Mad It Bankrupted Its Maker... The Renault Avantime
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- Опубликовано: 5 фев 2025
- The French have a history of making crazy cars, some are a success, like the Espace and Classic Citroen DS, but many are commercial failures. The Avantime was a daring mix of coupe and MPV and it ended up bankrupting Matra. Matra made the first production mid engine car, it won Formula 1.. but this car killed it! Is it a bad car, or just misunderstood?
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I reckon the design language was simply ahead of its time. When released it looked unusual, however now in a carpark full of slab sided SUV's it does not look out of place and would look current, but better then the average SUV.
When the Avantime was launched in Portugal I got a one full day driving and testing it. I was instantly hooked and my children too! So... after 20 years this latest May I finally bought one Avantime 2.0 T to join my youngtimers collection. Just love it!
I’m a big fan of Patrick Le Quement’s work from this era - a car designer who was prepared to take risks, backed by a manufacturer who was prepared to back him! Inspiring!!
if you jump from a plane with no parachute you are not taking risks, you are suicidal
It's probably fair to say that the Avantime was a bit too polarizing and went a little too far to be widely accepted.
Designers have to know when to pull back a little, same could be said for the Fiat Multipla.
Exactly. He was one of the best ever car designers along with Chris Bangel. Both of them were not afraid to move the game on and do something different unlike the boring cars of today. At least Kia and Citroen are still doing new and unique designs online the boring ugly stuff coming from the German makes and the makes owned by them now.
I'm a big fan of Megane II styling and while this design was also controversial I must say that after almost 20 years of it's debut it still looks quite fresh. Also these cars sold pretty well, so that risk - although not that big as with the Avantime or VelSatis - paid off in the end.
@@Luke-PlanesTrainsDogsnCars "Designers have to know when to pull back a little" If you are interested in weird looking cars, check out the video by Shannons Insurance on the AU Falcon (ala Hubnut's Fairmont). The designer (Graham Wadsworth, originally from the UK) ultimately said they had more "rejectors" than they expected and even before the AU Falcon was released, they had started on the clay model of the facelift BA Falcon (where they raised the headlights, raised the boot, lowered the "hump" in the roof to make it look less bulbous etc) with the goal to bring the Falcon back into the "circle of acceptability" ( ruclips.net/video/s29uuBlDigI/видео.html ). He said he enjoyed designing the AU Falcon as they had huge freedoms in doing so, but it didn't work out. It's an interesting insight into car design and you are spot on about designers sometimes getting carried away and needing to pull back to get back within the "circle of acceptability" of the general public! 🙂
A friend of mine worked for a Renault dealership around the time the Avantime and Velsatis were released. Renault apparently approached all its distributors and urged them to take on more sales staff to cope with the massive increase in sales that they were expecting due to the release of the new cars. His dealership decided on the basis of the pre-release information that Renault had two great vehicles coming and did just that. Come the launch day everything was prepared for the crowds of people they thought would want to see the new cars but the sales room was virtually empty. Needless to say the newly hired salesman didn't get his expected bonus or even get to stay more than a couple of months before he was let go.
It was a huge success at The Paris Motor show so expectations were indeed very high. It was sadly very misunderstood and people struggled to see it as anything other than a 'coupe people carrier' rather than the executive grand tourer that it actually is.
the french are so....arrrogant
@@markmartin448 How is it an executive grand tourer, and not a people carrier coupé? Because that's exactly what it is. That's how it drives.
I owned one, blue with a silver roof, you forget to mention, the button that opens all the windows and sunroofs at one time, a real party trick !!!
That was an unexpected review, but I can see why you did it and enjoyed the experience. Renault really pushed boundaries at this time and let's not forget that even the original Espace and Scenic had mixed reviews because they were ahead of their time and pre-emptive concepts bravely put into production. The Talbot Matra Rancho was another example from the same Matra stable whose design features emerged in the Discovery 1, years later. I seem to recall that the expectation was that folk who had owned an Espace but who wished to scale down to a similar car with executive, coupe pretensions would naturally gravitate towards the Avantime. How wrong they were but that doesn't mean it was a total failure. Interestingly many manufacturers are playing with a similar idea, for example, the Mercedes GLC? A great review and these Avantimes are gaining in value.
I think the idea was that the firsts Espace were almost 20 years old. So some of the first customers loved the Espace and were used to it but had no more kids at home, and Renault/Matra thought they may like a premium "Espace coupé".
I love how the French make cars...and Renault and Matra have great history. The view from inside is amazing, and I love the lines from the front windshield all the way to the rear end. I don't think it's too big for you...remember the Lexus and Bismerc. If I was living in Europe (especially France), I can't think of a better car to make the experience complete. Another great video. Thanks.
I have always admired the French car designers, as they always think out of the box in car design! All cars nowadays look mundane now! Thanks Jack for your variety!
I had both an Avantime and a Vel Satis when they came out.
My understanding was that the Avantime was supposed to introduce the public to the new design language in advance of the Megane launch, however they had delays due to the door mechanisms and they came out at the same time.
I think they were just too different for peoples taste and they'd rather spend money on something safe and German! I bought mine from a main dealer with delivery miles for just £13k vs. a list price of £28k.
Their true habitat is wafting at warp speed down French auto-routes, and I never tired of seeing peoples jaws drop when they saw it.
You're right about the wheels; they look way better on the optional 18" wheels.
I had to sell it to pay for a stupid kitchen and have regretted it ever since...
At least your purchasing history is consistent: first you bought two stupid cars, then you bought a stupid kitchen...
@@pistonburner6448 and it didn't stop there!
You missed out Matra Bagheera which was 3 seater mid engine sports car. At launch circa 1974 had the lowest production car cd of 0.31 and also had fibre optics in the dashboard (Matra had aerospace division). Late 1970’s Bagheera S upgraded engine to the 1442cc from Talbot Alpine and was replaced by Murena with the bigger 2.2 ltr engined from Solara and that had fully galvanised chassis. Nice cars - all LHD - and were peers to Porsche 924 and Lancia Montecarlo… well worth a review in their own right.
The Matra Simca Bagheera, great looking car - I met one every morning for a few years about 15 years ago - someone must have loved and looked after his car!
I believe the only Renault I have driven was a 19 about 30 years ago, and only for a few km. It was pleasant enough to drive, but everything in it rattled!
A friend's Mother had one of those Bagheera's - it was amazing to be in ....and exciting to be close to the ground .
Although 3 front seats may seem innovative and useful...How many times would they actually be used? Did you really want your mother in law in the same row as you?.
@@Luke-PlanesTrainsDogsnCars I see your point. I have four seats im my car, and only a few times a year more than one is occupied.
@@Luke-PlanesTrainsDogsnCars well at the time I had a Bagheera I was 19 years old (c. 1985) so more interested in daughters not mothers… trust me this was an exotic car back in the day that on more than one occasion helped at getting girlfriends 😀 … also, it was surprisingly roomy inside for those with flexible nibble bodies 🤭
I always liked the cars designed by the team around Patrick Le Quément. Like a lot of French cars they where a little ahead of their time.
Yes, and the design makes so much more sense than today's various crossovers. I read an interview with Le Quement where he explained that the goal of the car was to appeal to sophisticated buyers who were tired of, say, the BMW 5 Series Touring and similar cars. It didn't work out that way, but I still believe that this market niche is there. Many people are tired of "everyone" wanting the same car brands and models.
@@Hvitserk67 Vive la difference!
Such a beautiful car. I still want one as much as I did when they were new. You feature the most beautiful \ interesting cars on your channel.
Quirky and interesting car. Luckily you managed to avoided that clown overtaking in the corner. Nice video. Keep up the good work.
I am not usually a big fan of French cars. But there are a few that have my fancy. .. This is one, also the Citroen C6 from the modern cabal. I also love the floaty nature of the best French suspension.
Originally, the Avantime concept was to hold Renault Espace and similar MPV buyers who didn't need such big cars after the kids grew up, but enjoyed driving in a high position (new to the period) and the practicality of a minivan compared to conventional sedans.
It should be remembered that the Espace, Voyager then Scenic, Nissan Prairie and Zafira enjoyed great commercial success in the mid-1980s and 1990s. Avantime targeted these customers from the middle and upper classes who were now single parents.
This in blue and a R21 Turbo in red.
Here in Ireland you never see them for sale. C'est magnifique.
I doubt they sold any Avantimes here unfortunately. They did sell the Val Satis here do but not many.
The Avantime was my dream car. From the day I laid my eyes on the photos in a car magazine I could not imagine any other car ticking all the boxes in my ideal vehicle. Seating position, glass roof, external dimensions, inner room. Those doors, the side profile and that minimalist Espace dash.
You. Have. Got. To. Be. Joking!
@@kwaynr1301 I am serious. Infact years later I bought a Toyota Lucida as compensation for the Avantime.
@@sketchbabu hehe, ok, its funny how tastes can differ. Maybe for the better. Thanks for your answer btw.
Absolutely love these, always have. When I was at university, I had a weekend job driving brand new Renaults off the car carriers straight from the factory in France. Very occasionally, an Aventime was onboard and I always whenever I saw one, made a quick dash whilst everyone else was trying to seek out any hot Clios.
I definitely got them as a concept, but didn't really see how the Vel Satis found its way to production although I'm sure the inclusion of 2 more doors and another seat gave it that usability edge.
Matra also made a really interesting 3 seater coupe called the Murena.
The last Espace made by Matra was a great looking car, but the Renault designed version lost it all.
Great review, I knew nothing about Matra's involvement. What a beautifully designed car.
Part of my job here on the French Riviera is to manage second home owners and source what they need. Several British clients have asked me to find an Avantime to use when down here. They are quite difficult to find actually but we did
Interesting to see your enthusiasm and theirs for the Avantime since the French don’t really like (and even don’t know about) it!
PS Yes the Frenchies pronounce "time" the English way
The Avantime reminds me of the Johnny Cab from Total Recall, the Arnie film.
Always thought these were wonderful things. Renault trying to out-weird Citreon. Brilliant
It was perfect
I love these there so cool and so rare you could go for years and not see one on the road. Love the way the doors open and had that coupe vibe ❤🎉🎉❤. Great review as always
Always been a favourite, but it should be a luxe non-manual. It is actually perfect for an electric vehicle as packaging would suit a BEV
I absolutely love the Avantime. A car before its time.
“…before its time”. Was that a deliberate pun on “Avantime” (itself a deliberate franglais pun on “ahead of time”), or just a happy accident?
Love all the different cars you have on the channel Jack! Such a big variety of stuff...... Love it bud 👍
Thanks chap!!
Absolutely love these cars so different from anything else on the road , my friends dad has 2 of these
It's the Espace Shooting brake no one asked for but I love it. I'd love to see a shooting brake version of their current Initiale Paris Espace. Would be an insane luxury alternative to all these SUV Coupes.
the door hinges are a work of art... more cars should have them for getting out of carparks
I first saw this car on Top Gear and finally saw it in person at the Lane Motor Museum in Nashville. It's not for me, although I admire the creativity of the idea. On the other hand, my wife loved it.
History I did not know. Thanks for the education.
I’ve always loved these since the day they came out. I still have photos of these when they were brand new, on a podium at the NEC Motor Show in Birmingham, U.K. From then I was hooked. Great to see one in good shape still on the road. It deserves to be loved and looked after.
I owned an Aventime for 11 years - without doubt it is the most exciting car I have ever owned. I was sad to see it go and have considered buying another, but I can not justify a second vehicle (especially a 20 yr old one). It was tragic that it did not sell, it deserved a much greater ownership.
I think the general public was never properly marketed to or exposed to.
In a better timeline we'd have more cars like this to enjoy long drives in the country and be able to see absolutely everything around us in the city
great nostalgic review! please note that the first series of Renault Espace were not only produced by Matra, they had also been designed by them. Matra was a pretty good engineering company.
One of my favourite cars ever ,absolutely nuts
Blindfolded with all badges removed, one would be hard pressed to identify most modern brands. The Avantime though would always be a french car. It has an extra dose of quirkiness.
I still remember when it came out I was like "what were they thinking?" But I agree that it aged gracefully and makes for a one of a kind classic.
You're right that the design of the Avantime still looks contemporary. If it was launched now with an electric drivetrain, people would be fawning over it.
I was working with Renault, and this was my car , Many people asked me about the car. It was great fun to drive.
A properly French car ♥! Also Matra won Le Mans in 72 with Henri Pescarolo and a certain Graham Hill, their gorgeous little MSC670 used their F1 V12. You must hear one, look it up on RUclips.
One of the thoughts around these great cars was that we owners of Espace wanted something similar after their kids had grown up and left home . The rear seats are perfect for grandkids !
You start your videos with much joy and enthusiasm. I like it!
In my dream, lottery win garage, there would be a special section for mad French cars. Avantime V6. Vel Satis V6. An R16 TX. CX GTi Turbo. An original DS. A Matra Rancho. Alpine GTA. Slightly more conventional, a 5 GT Turbo, and a Clio 182. And an expert mechanic to make them perfect. Great video 😀
I remember defending these against absurd criticism when they first came out. It's hard to believe now that it's over 20 years old. Way ahead of its time. A guaranteed classic as far as I'm concerned. I'm sorely tempted!
Yeah Harry Dwyer who is creating videos about going around the UK in a small boat just did a whole show on this, towing his dinghy. Le Avantime, une voiture fantastique haha
I perfectly follow you on the Vel Satis. Where the Avantime was kind of slick and sporty, the Vel Satis was plump. But even more focused on luxury. A real saloon on wheels
thank you for doing these historys on these quirky car you get to drive, been watching you since rebuilding that Ferrari in that tiny garage,,, your channels always a must see, plus living in America, do miss that English countryside cheers
Thanks Robert!!
A classic example of a good car that no one bought
The future of french cars 🚗
I think the Avantime has stood the test of time in terms of design and I'm not surprised that it handles well. Matra are legendary in motor racing circles, not only for winning the F1 World Championship in 1969, they were very successful in F3 and F2 in the 1960s and also won the Le Mans 24 Hours Race for three consecutive years from 1972-74, so they certainly knew how to construct a good chassis.
I don't think one should be surprised that the chassis is that good at gobbling up kilometers in comfort and with confidence. It's what the French always were good at. Were the Avantime and the Velsatis built on the same platform?
Lovely car, awesome video - I hope you do a Peugeot 407 coupe someday. I miss mine every day.
nah, go for the vel satis, it's got a 3.5V6 is out of the nissan 350Z, if you are going to bankrupt yourself at the petrol pump, do it in style....
ahh, the ranchero, lovely looking car, but rotted beyond repair at 4yrs old, i kid you not.
pantograph hinges is the correct name i believe keep up the excellent work young man
I’d love to drive one in a thunderstorm on the Highland moors. Stormclouds rushing by, lightning overhead… Three witches telling me I’ll be king on an audiobook… I’d crash of course, just admiring the lightshow through the sunroof. What a way to go!
Well done as always ;-)
...five years ago, I replaced my Busso V6 with the "ugly" Vel Satis. I would have loved to own an Avantime, but couldn't find an affordable one. One day,....
Greetings from Germany
Always liked the Avantime, just so French and the design so good. I think there is a hint of 1900's cars with the roof angle at the back but maybe that is just me. 👍
Looked like so much fun and as for how it looks I love it! - thanks Number 27
Really funny to see you publish this right at the same time Harry Dwyer posted about doing his Avantime up to tow the little speed boat he uses to go around the UK.
We have wanted one of these for a few years, hopefully when we get back across the pond we can find a nice one
In french, we pronounce "AVANTIME" juste like you, the british
Its pronounced Renault Avant -time ( = avant -Garde = Ahead of it's time ) - So Happy u have brought that incredible weird but innovative car this time .
Mind the Vel Satis too.But that era of Renault was good.Even the Trafic and Kangoo van were fresh and funky,they had a great product line up then....
Allways loved the look of this car !
I always liked the quirky design of the Avantime. I believe the mechanicals were based on the Mk1 Espace. The only downside is that you'd need quite a wide garage to be able to open even just the driver's door.
Yep, Espace based mechanicals from whichever version was made at the time.. so t think MK1 but a later version. Have a great Xmas Chris!
Actually the double hinge of the doors is here to avoid the door to open too large while still letting you out (and being massive).
A friend of mine who owns a family run Renault Service Centre has one of these.
I have always wanted one of these this is one of the cars for my dream car garage collection.
I’ve only ever seen 1 or 2 on the road and two on screen. One being top gear and the other here in your video!
The Vel Satis with its "balleens". I think for such a car the idea to make it taller made sense, more room for the people at the back. It was commonly used by politicians at the time
I'm a big fan of the Avantime. Below the V6 is a turbo 4 which is fine. You could also get it as a pure 4 seaters with 4 armchairs. The doors open like that so you can actually open them when in a parking spot with cars or walls in the way.
Matra is well known for making missiles, like the MICA and the Magic. That part of the company, through several mergers, became Airbus group.
Contemporary cars tend to have tiny windows while this thing is like travelling in a luxury train where you can take in everything
I love those... I wanna import one to Australia and use it as my every day car. I need one. It will be stupid expensive by the time I got it on the road here, but it'd be worth it.
Thanks for the cool video Jack, thats a funny and interesting car... Apart from that special creature overtaking in a bend. :)
I always sort of wanted one of those because I particularly love quirky cars
If the V6 is anything like the one in the Espace, then it is very thirsty.
I was working in France in 2001-2002 when Renault had the rush of blood to the head that produced the Avantime. It excited a certain amount of curiosity and admiration (the French have a soft spot for “creative and quirky, but deeply impractical”) but hardly anyone bought it. I asked a colleague (a little tongue in cheek) who was in the process of changing his company car, if he didn’t fancy an Avantime, and got the classic response of “Sadly, some things are just too French, even for the French.”
I find your channel increasingly interesting.
Avantime and Vel Satis are still one of my favorite Renault designed cars
What a fantastic car. Always loved these. I love large 3 door cars for some reason!
My absolute favorite car! And my 2nd fave car is the first recommendation the Lotus Esprit! Instant subrscribe!
I've always liked the look of the Avantime, the notch back reminds me of the 105e Ford Anglia.
Renault took the Espace in house not back I in house, because the Espace was a Chrysler (Simca) / Matra design but dropped when Peugeot dropped the company when it decided to drop Talbot brand and so retooled to use Renault oily bits instead of Talbot. Production of the first and second generation "plastic" Espace being made by Matra.
Excellent and interesting car, thank you very much for showing it.
I would like to have one. I love your channel Jack! You have cars that I have never seen or heard of over here in the States.
Y'all get so much cooler cars than we do in the US. This is one of the more-compelling modern Renault's I've seen. I rented an Espace while visiting friends in Nice years ago, and wasn't impressed at all. I will say the French seem unencumbered by convention when it comes to designing cars...
Try looking at mid century French cars. Extremely unusual designs unrestricted by safety regulations! They look like something out of science fiction
It's definitely bizzare two door Frankenstein wtf
Was always sorely tempted.
From Canada, where this car or any Renault hasn't been available in decades, I've got to say this car doesn't look horrible. I like that it looks different in a French way.
Le Quement said (Classic & Sports about 1999?2000) his favourite car was the Vel Satis...
Based on the design and interior, true continuation of the DNA of the Avantime lives within the Espace IV
How could you ignore the Bagheera, and then the Murena? I had one of each, and all these years later I'd happily have either one again.
I love the design throughout but really like the interior 🙂
fascinating video! Used to drive a Matra Murena - another very quirky car
Nice work , Jack!
Owned two . Wonderful cars
If you're going down the route of French and quirky, then maybe one of the Citroën CXs might be worth a go. Especially one of the turbos....
A loaf of bread maybe? Small cars for small roads! Ok i guess? Good show mate1
Since you are at it! They are rare but another disaster for that company was the Renault Gordini 1300. It looked as a rally car but was so slow and lack of hp. Yes! I had one! Thank you Jack for the videos! Love them! Remember the 308 there in the garage! Smile!
love the cockpit. great view.
Brakes - RUclipsr Harry Dwyer recently had brake issues with his Aventime, and posted a video about getting them sorted.
I'll always remember the Avantime for Top Gear making it into a convertible 😄
I like your choice for quirky cars btw! Nice contrast to all the, predominantly Italian loveliness ;)
Great variety from you and your channel, not heard of this one before, so many vehicles from quite recent decades look the same, slightly melted blobs of metal and plastic with little or no character, variety is the spice of life.....vive la France.... but not their football team!
I love these its a beauiful design in it's own right. The vel sats is also cool.
It's one of the only Renault I would ever consider buying. The prices are high today though.