That Tony Yu seems like an idiot trying to trash your delid tool reputation? He obviously does it wrong on purpose, one run then hacks at it with a scraper?
He's not stupid (breaking it because he doesn't know what he's doing) Or malicious (trying to ruin reputation) He's just annoying and being a tiktokker out for attention.. and everyone took the bait.
yea what killed the socket is how thick the heat spreader is and the compatibility with am4 coolers... the socket of thread reapers and epyc was just better.
Please stop giving Tony Yu airtime/coverage. He is obviously misusing the delidding device. After being corrected the first time he should know better, so I must assume that he's now intentionally breaking chips for the publicity. Stop giving him that, he's being reckless and people need to start ignoring him.
All reviewers need too do this going forward.Huge avg FPS that in reality is flip-flopping all over the place is no longer fooling gamers like it did back in the day.We want consistency.
Gamer Nexus said AMD told him to use the X3D special chipset driver regarding Ryzen 9 dual CCD CPUs. Just 2 days before his review went live, and he had to throw out a lot of results. Maybe this can have something to say for your results
Same happened to almost everyone, apparently Jay2cents did a step by step install guide (I'm not watching his channel for that) but GN and HB Unboxed did a review using the installation procedure of the 3D Vcache parts and the performance was "normal" Wendell at L1Tech noticed performance issues under Windows and faster performance under Linux 😂
yeah, was curious if der8auer got the same recommendations related to chipset driver and core parking etc (similar to 7950x3D and 7900x3D requirements) as I don't think he mentioned this specifically in the review, but did say he reinstalled windows fresh. But he did analyze that games were using the proper cores with higher freqs.
After watching the Gamers Nexus review, I had the same thought, as it wasn't mentioned in this review. However, I believe Roman and Steve are somewhat close, so I assumed that when they said they 'reached out to other reviewers,' they would contact each other. I guess we'll find out soon.
@@MrMoerli he might have reached out before Steve said anything and Steve simply didnt have the time to just communicate around what he was told (assuming he was permitted to share it begin with) in time of this video to go out.
So with Tony, maybe the first time was user error, but now it seems likely he's deliberately doing it for the publicity. Grounds for defamation, not likely, but scummy none the less. I definitely would not give him more attention at this point in content at least. Maybe a strongly worded letter from an attorney though...
@ivangerginov5648 Trade libel is a thing, but difficult. Once is incompetent, twice seems like it's for the views. Tony is Asus' China manager, so there's also that issue.
Not exactly, when a corporate representative purchases a product to use it in a defamatory way, for indirect promotion of their brand, trade libel can come into play.
18:13 I don't know about new cpus but I remember using liquid metal to clean the solder from the die (9900k), I put a little bit on the die, moved around with a q-tip every 3 minutes, and then polished the die with a tiny amount of polish. Perfect mirror finish in the end. Zero scraping.
Says a lot they didnt have the competence to figure out there's an issue, unlike L1T and KitGuru among others. As much as 20% improvements over 7k on linux or with scheduler tweaks in doze, for the same power
@@madb132 Windows is certainly an issue BUT its on AMD to sell a good product. Intel put the effort into ThreadDirector to fix the scheduling situation, while AMD hasnt and it shows.
Because it's too much work to expect a normal user to do it, a normal user will try and click on PBO but anything more that that only a very small amount of people will even attempt to try.
@@JoeMama-yl1owprobably about the time amd almost doubles the tdp of their chips after the media lauded them for their power efficiency, despite single digit performance gains. How is AMD blowing this so badly? This is an extremely disingenuous launch, when all they had to do was be honest.
Must add, as I have seen it many times, the matte or dull look on the dies after delid is remaining indium solder. If you don't polish it to remove absolutely all indium it will still alloy with LM, leading to a little 'dry out'. Unless you want to apply a really liberal amount of LM I recommend polishing the dies with cape cod or similar to get a perfect mirror on all the chiplets before putting on LM.
Zen5 is having issues. Wendell found that Windows is doing something seemingly wrong. Ancient gameplays found that core parking mostly hurt performance in his stuff
Nice work as always Roman, looking forward to seeing some proper direct die Results. As for Tony Yu, that clown is simply looking for his 5 minutes of fame and as others have already stated, needs to RTFM! 😒
Romain at 21:43 - for fix very long boot time - try 2 parameters in memory timings settings : 1st - Memory Contex Restore = Enabled, 2nd - Power Down Mode = Enabled
@@lolschrauberinstability only happens when memory context restore is enabled but power down is disabled. As long as you enable power down, there won’t be an issue with stability.
Thanks to Intel forcing me to learn what exactly a load line is, and how Intel's use of Vdroop is different to Nvidia GPU's and AMDs everything.. I do find myself wondering if on the occasions performance seemed lower for no obvious reason, was there any difference between effective and reported clocks on the "more efficient" part? (If that's even a thing on AMD)
I can explain the the benchmark result in CS2. Source 2 engine utilize as many physical cores as possible, as a result you are suffering from cross ccd latency. To avoid it you should add -threads 8 or 9 in your launch option, this way it works normally. Same for 14900k and all other intel CPUs that have E cores, you should use -threads X, X represents the amount of P cores you have in your CPU. X+1 also works similarly.
I see you also have picked up the planted terrarium hobby! I feel it goes hand in hand with PC building. I also picked up aquascaping of smaller nano tanks for Betta fish and Guppies.
AMD announced a new AGESA update for 9700x, also linux performance seems a lot better compared to windows (which indicates some sort of a potential scheduler inefficiency /bug ) last but not least these CPUs have been tested on what is technically last gen mobos (designed with zen4 in mind) maybe that's the reason for the strange results
Even if this is the case, it's all on AMD if their software/hardware wasn't ready for the CPU launch. All the poor release day results are accurate results and valid for review.
@@AceStrife I suppose there is a small possibility that these issues are due to something in a recent Windows update or something, something that AMD could not have predicted. It is a bit odd that they suddenly decided to postpone the launch, sure there were some rumors about why AMD did this, but if AMD discovered these issues last minute, and were hoping that they could come up with a quick fix, that could be a factor.
CPU performance is better in Linux on every Ryzen generation, so it's not really unexpected to see 9000 series is doing better. It probably should be expected that 9000 series picks up a bit more performance as compilers are adjusted for it, but with the recent very poor core-to-core latency results for Zen5, it's starting to look more and more that Zen5 has some significant architectural regressions and issues. Hopefully this is just another AMD RDNA moment, and Zen6 is going to take what Zen5 laid down and create another RDNA2 moment.
Thank you Roman! I am thinking of getting a 9950X and delid it like my 7950X is. Now I think I will hold off for a bit to see if this gets resolved. I have 3 different versions of your delidding tools so I know they work perfectly.
According to hardware leaker Chi11eddog on X, an upcoming AGESA 1.2.0.1a Patch "A" update, will reportedly increase the TDP of the two Zen 5 chips from 65W to 105W. EDC on the Ryzen 7 9700X and Ryzen 5 9600X
@@TheBackyardChemist Fair enough, and apologies, for my apparent misunderstanding. The patch is making a major difference to power, huge! Enabling EXPO and specifying PBO +200Mhz, helps a great deal. (Precision Boost Overdrive)
Zen 5 has severe Memory Bandwidth/access limits The bottleneck is Infinity Fabric in I/O die which is the same as for Zen 4 I/O die was even bottlenecking Zen 4, that's why X3D cache is so fast Steps to do: 1. Re-Architect I/O die Infinity Fabric 2, Switch from obsolete DDR architecture to HBM2
Regarding your second point: Do you like paying 1000$ for 32GB of HBM2? That memory is in high demand in the server market and will be super expensive for the PC DIY buyers. not a good solution.
I'm not trying to buy my motherboard and ram as a package because the two usually need to be soldered together. And I don't want to pay $2000 for a motherboard and ram. No thanks, I'm fine with DDR5.
PBO is very weird. On ryzen 5000 at least ive found best performance leaving EDC near stock but unlimiting PPT and raising TDC. Theres also numerous bugs with it across different bios versions
Based on the 2 methods it looks like Tony Yu is trying to break the lid off too quick - applying too much pressure too early. Its just a simple case of DeBauer being more experienced.
Since you mentioned slow boot time I can’t help myself but to ask here, I have had a problem with the boot time on my 7900X since I purchased it new… I have an MSI MEG ACE X670E and my memory is 6400 CL 32 TridentZ . My problem is there regardless of with or without XMP enabled. So when it’s on 4800MHrz it would take around 30 seconds to post and around 41 seconds each time until Windows boots. And when it’s on 6400 XMP it takes around 40 seconds to post and 52 second until windows startup . Now I’ve just played with the timings and put it on 6000 CL 30. I’ve enabled “memory context restore” which followed that I had to enable “power down enable” as well. Now the mobo posts around 25 seconds and OS starts at 35. At this stage I cannot put the pc on sleep mode cause if I do the mobo won’t post. If I hadn’t enabled “memory context restore”, any change from 4800Mhz to either XMP or 6000Mhrz would also render restarting the PC impossible cause again it wouldn’t post. I changed the motherboard to an Asus X670E-E, boot time still didn’t change, changed the memory kit to one exactly like it, didn’t change, changed the M.2 drive from which the OS loads, didn’t change (obviously cause the problem is the time for it to post, not the OS). The only thing I haven’t changed is the CPU so that’s what I’m left with. I really can’t understand it but guess the problem is with the CPU
also there are handfull boards have their CPPC remove during SOC incident year ago...its missing on 50% of amd motherboard vendors ...something AMD failed to mention to their partners that its a must to have for windows 11 core parking software driver support for gamebar mode
Everyone thought we were likely to see the same improvement from 9000 as we did from 7000 over 5000. It seems the big bump from 7000 was the entire AM5 change and now that’s baked in perhaps 9000 hasn’t got that much to give.
I installed the heat spreader and Corsair water block temperatures are fine however the CPU die average temperature goes to 120°C . Is this normal? I am running at 5050ghz while gaming it doesn't throttle at all.
Fun fact: Tony is the head manager of ASUS China😂and asus is a big customer of thermal grizzly since many rog laptop models use thermal grizzly liquid metal😂
@@coffeejn for the record he never blamed the delidder, nor had the intention to purposely show it on camera, he just didn't know how to use it and the broken CPUs also attracts clicks very well, so🤷I wouldn't be racist just because of some marketing trickery
The guy that delidded and broke his own CPU had a grace of a drunk truck driver after 18 beers That's what happens when you didn't pay for your own CPU, but got it for free I am also trying to understand that leak benchmark stating 9950X can do 48000+ score in Cinebench R23
All these re-install of Windows kills performance on m.2 drives, I killed an PCIe 4.0 Corsair 500Gb drive installing MSFS2020 7 times when the problem was an Windows problem not letting me use my umlaut equipped name letters that had been working for 20 years. The drive went from +4000 mbit/sec to 500mbit. Could this be part of your problem Romain?
What a difference to your TG delid tool for the 13th and 14th gen Intel chips. One single move and it was done with my 14900KS. I heated to 70C in an oven to soften the glue.
Roman, are you using the Performance or Balanced power profile? Usually, AMD multi-chiplet (also Intel hybrid chips for the matter) scheduling and power optimizations only apply when the Balanced power profile is enabled. I understand that you reinstalled the OS and the AMD CPU drivers, not just reset the OS. Bear in mind that during the Windows installation, different power and scheduling optimizations are performed if you use multi-chiplet or hybrid CPUs. These optimizations are not reconfigured after the OS installation is finished, even if you reset the OS. Also, the AMD drivers install additional components when a multi-chiplet CPU is put on the system but if you first use a single CCD chip and then switch to a multi-chiplet CPU, the driver won't be reinstalled and the additional components/settings won't be installed/configured. Also, is there any reason why you are using 6000 MT/s DIMMs with the Intel CPU? I understand that if you're looking for the best performance, you can use faster memory and if you're looking to run it without voiding the warranty, Intel currently supports up to 4400 MT/s if I recall correctly -- I know AMD officially supports up to 5600 MT/s even though AMD recommends to use 6000 MT/s to have an Auto:1:1 ratio with the Infinity Fabric Clock (FCLK), unified memory controller clock (UCLK), and memory clock (MEMCLK)...
Can you show the single CPU/s you are actually reviewing as a different colour in the graphs? Makes it so much easier to assess the data instead of constantly hunting for the relevant CPU in a list of 20 all the same colour thanks. Keep up the good work!
The thing about all the hoops other reviewers had to go through to do core parking in games just shows how bad the core management in windows is. In linux you don't have to do any of that crap and there the 9950x really kicks butt in some scenarios, especially compiling. AMD should have had a chat with Microsoft and let them do all the required updates before shipping these CPUs. Apart from a BIOS update people shouldn't have to do anything for a new CPU.
This isn't even a problem with not competing with X3D as some have stated. The 7950X competed with the 5950X, the fact that you don't even see a 5% increase is alarming and points to even X3D being trash no upgrade as well. This isn't just a bad launch it is a failure. All they had to do was deliver similar to what they did in the past and they couldn't even deliver 15%. The stagnation is real, they said Intel is dead what are you gonna buy desides us.
tbh these cpus would have been in development since before the intel saga. These would have been started to get developed a couple years ago when they where doing really well and probably let their quality slip.either way its probably close to an industry first when generational improvements where negligible. we don't even get any new technologies or features to make up for it.
Unfortunately this may be pointing to the hard truth that we are reaching silicon's limit of performance. Dropping in size isn't giving us beter performance anymore and may even be causing problems that can't be solved unless we start making cpus out of graphene.
@@darkkingastos4369not the silicon limit of performance, but the limits of size. You can't make things any smaller. We are already at traces and transistors being 3 atoms wide. You can't go any smaller. Technically you can, but you need to drop frequencies and use a lot more volume of silicon, so it's not that great.
I think it's partly because AMD skipped a learning generation , because Zen 3 was supposed to get a Zen 3+ desktop variant. AMD's memory controller isn't particularly strong to utilise DDR5 having 4 dimms populated, it runs at 3600mhz, which my B550 board can do. I like the thermal behaviour of Zen 5 over Zen 4, but that's only because AMD needlessly changed things from Zen 3. It's a failure of a product Zen 5 built on an expensive poorly selling AM5 platform, I agree.
@@darkkingastos4369 That isn't what happened here, at least not provably. Just shrinking the size alone can give performance but we don't know what changes they made under the hood. This looks like stagnation to me. It is worse than when Intel only targeted 5% IPC gains yearly. This barely hits 3% increase over the 7950X. That is what you call an abject failure. It would have been a fine launch if they had not promised 15-40% increases which were not delivered or priced everything so high, so old parts destroy the new ones. Again a marketing fail still. If the X3D variant cannot even beat the 7800X3d by 5% we will know Amd is cooked. Not because they failed to deliver on performance, but because they priced it so high when it fails to deliver. They need to fire everyone in marketing/pricing and start from scratch.
Did you run the tests with the updated bios for the 7900x3d and 7950x3d that fixed core parking issues? Apparently you have to enable this feature for the 9900 and 9950x cpus
There is some material that 9000x has very high core to core latency even on the same die, can that be the cause of worse performance, and could that be the result of their new increased instruction speed at the cost of latency. Basically anything that needs cross core talking ( most of desktop use ) will run the same or worse than 7000x series.
I just rebuilt a x670e 7950x PC after my 13900k only started bluescreening so I still haven't tried them but I've seen several videos saying you need to disable options in AMD bioses for them to boot in a normal time like secure boot etc..Wendell also talked about that in one of his amd reviews when it came to 9000 weird behavior in benchmarks
What is the point using 6000mhz cl 30 ram on intel? I understand that amd cant go above 6400 but why limit intel that can go to up to 8400mhz (dont get me wrong i like AMD i have a 5800x3d)
thx for effort and saving me 700€, I will keep abusing my beast 7600x with pbo on 85°C thermalthreshold and -20mv curve opt 5.25 multi 5.5 singl thread 83°C max temp
Almost completely unrelated, I'd like to see your opinions on Thermalwright 360 clcs. I feel like being half the price of other brand name clcs has to be worth talking about like surely there must be a catch, bit they seem just ad high quality as anything else from the reviews I've seen so far. Like the Notte, and Prism both look top quality. Have we just been getting ripped off before?
treating the X3D as a XX90X model that have to be beaten mandatorily by the next gen or internet burns..... lol kids..... X3D is a WHOLE new league of CPU's and in fact AMD should change its name to not get confused by the other parts.... or kids will burn everything with the hate.
Was planning to build a 9800x3d system when it releases now I'm strongly considering just building a 7800x3d rig as it doesn't seem anything from the new gen is gonna be worth the silicon it's printed on...
9:35 SMT disabling on Cyberpunk and falling BELOW 9700x suggests that cyberpunk has around 16 active threads, the scheduler is spreading them evenly across all 16 cores. And the switching fabric is BROKEN (very very SLOW) like on Tyzen AI HX 370!
I know in recent days it's been admitted that it's Windows itself that is affecting performance. Not the AMD drivers. Remember Windows 11 was built from the ground up to support Intel chips. To the extent it was released seemingly far too early to make Intel 11th Gen work.
I'd wait for the X870e chipset and faster EXPO II memory modules ... and of course for Microsoft to fix their threading issues on Windows 11 OS ("Game mode" shouldn't exist if the OS was developed correctly, band aid).
Have you done the same tests in Linux? There's a couple of sites reporting that these CPUs performs better in Linux than they do in Windows, at least for now.
The only circumstance one is allowed to skip results in a objective scientific experiment, is when one or a few results are obviously out of the ordinary. But that doesn't count when results are consistency off. In that case the conclusion would be according to the results.
All I know is that AMD CPUs aren't crashing and need to be "patched" like Intel CPUs... Love hearing the Intel fanboys trying to explain that BS away... 🤣
The die will crack when the user considers the IHS to be sufficiently sheared off and attempts to pry the IHS off when it has not been completely sheared off the die.
I have yet to get a AM5 Delid tool but i definitely need to the intel V1 has been absolutely amazing as it has more then likely saved my 14900K from Certain Death with it's incrwsed surface area for cooling better. Just sucks i bought into intel right before the degradation issues surfaced 🤦♂️☠️
I think we can all appreciate your demo of the delider and feeling required to address it. I think this guy Tony Yu is just wasting your time and while I'm not one for threatening legal action it might be a necessary evil to get him to stfu and stop wasting ppl's time.
So the same or slightly less than what I get in R23 with my 14900K (~43.5K at 5.8/4.6/5.0) before delidding in my loop, just about 50w less and worse performance in games? The 9950x seems way over hyped compared to what it actually delivered so far.
Having to communicate across CCD, or migrate threads from one CCD to another, to compute a game frame could be the same old reason why dual-CCD parts lose in some games vs single CCD parts. The latency with any given app running across multiple CCDs is usually worse than the same app running strictly within one CCD, so for extremely low-turnaround-time ("low-latency") tasks like generating a game frame in just one 700th of a second (~1.42ms), +/- other random sources of system noise, every bit of latency matters there. Maybe a UEFI/firmware/OS update or two can help with the scheduling, I'm not sure.
It seems that these Ryzen have problems on Windows... on Linux it have huge performance. Plus, changing cores cause some problems so I suppose that it need a fresh Windows OS (not your case).
Windows seems to have issues with these new cpus, Sometimes running as admin improves perf, and other issues. Level1Tech's mentioned these issues in their new vid.
Seems like this cpu was a nightmare to review, I was seriously thinking about getting one as an upgrade over my 7800x3d...ill be waiting for the next x3ds instead.
AM5 released too early, and Zen 5 is just, an unfinished product barely. It's annoying Zen 3+ never came to desktop, with X3D, as the redesign from Zen 3 to Zen 4 and the high motherboard prices and DDR5 just never sold in poor climate. AMD haven't given any response to World wide negative criticism of their latest and greatest. Fools.
in the case of Tony Yu, the problem lies between chair and delidder
between the ears of the problem between the chair and delid tool you mean 🤣
there is no problem, he did it on purpose to create hype and get a lot of views
That Tony Yu seems like an idiot trying to trash your delid tool reputation? He obviously does it wrong on purpose, one run then hacks at it with a scraper?
Just assumed he is stupid. Of course could be stupid with malice.
He's actually the head of Asus China branch😂
He's not stupid (breaking it because he doesn't know what he's doing)
Or malicious (trying to ruin reputation)
He's just annoying and being a tiktokker out for attention.. and everyone took the bait.
@@lyteness859 given how bad ASUS has been lately, that really doesn't surprise me at all.
Tony is just an amateur, with lumpy hands and strength. Doesn't matter if he works for Asus.
AMD promised AM5 would be supported for several years, they never said performance was going to improve during that time 😂.
Intel and AMD bamboozling consumers right now
yea what killed the socket is how thick the heat spreader is and the compatibility with am4 coolers... the socket of thread reapers and epyc was just better.
@@alrizo1115 totally :C
That’s why I run Intel.
@@Typhon888 I hope not the latest 2 series of CPUs for your sake though. Both companies have their low moments.
Please stop giving Tony Yu airtime/coverage. He is obviously misusing the delidding device. After being corrected the first time he should know better, so I must assume that he's now intentionally breaking chips for the publicity. Stop giving him that, he's being reckless and people need to start ignoring him.
He's the General Manager of ASUS China. This should be covered until he's fired, at least.
@@aflury you mean ASUS who burned my 12900k z690 asus extreme pc in 2022 because they soldered components backwards ? thanks tony yu
I was your 100th like :P
This industry really needs better naming conventions.
I'm old enough to remember the Intel 9700, Nvidia 9700, and the ATI 9700.
Why? It is just a name on the product stack. Only an idiot reads meaning into the name.
I still have a working ATI sapphire 9800 pro with the zalman orb cooler on it, good old days...
I remember Nvidia 9800GTS, there was a 9700?
Almost like numbers are numbers
ATI 9700 was the best of the mentioned :D
Tony Yu obviously hasn't RTFM and didn't do sufficient side to side moves to completely free the IHS from the die. Never any leverage with a spatula!
Results sorted by 1% lows, amazing!
Yes as it should be. I’ll never understand why in a benchmark that has FPS avg of hundreds.. reviewers don’t typically rank by 1% lows…
@@B1u35ky Me neither, but a lot of outlets don't seem to get it.
Makes the most sense of what will affect your gaming.
All reviewers need too do this going forward.Huge avg FPS that in reality is flip-flopping all over the place is no longer fooling gamers like it did back in the day.We want consistency.
Gamer Nexus said AMD told him to use the X3D special chipset driver regarding Ryzen 9 dual CCD CPUs. Just 2 days before his review went live, and he had to throw out a lot of results. Maybe this can have something to say for your results
Same happened to almost everyone, apparently Jay2cents did a step by step install guide (I'm not watching his channel for that) but GN and HB Unboxed did a review using the installation procedure of the 3D Vcache parts and the performance was "normal" Wendell at L1Tech noticed performance issues under Windows and faster performance under Linux 😂
yeah, was curious if der8auer got the same recommendations related to chipset driver and core parking etc (similar to 7950x3D and 7900x3D requirements) as I don't think he mentioned this specifically in the review, but did say he reinstalled windows fresh. But he did analyze that games were using the proper cores with higher freqs.
Yeah the discussion at 11:10 makes me think this might be the issue
After watching the Gamers Nexus review, I had the same thought, as it wasn't mentioned in this review. However, I believe Roman and Steve are somewhat close, so I assumed that when they said they 'reached out to other reviewers,' they would contact each other. I guess we'll find out soon.
@@MrMoerli he might have reached out before Steve said anything and Steve simply didnt have the time to just communicate around what he was told (assuming he was permitted to share it begin with) in time of this video to go out.
I salute you for seeing something was wrong and refusing to draw conclusions based on obviously iffy data for a deadline.
So with Tony, maybe the first time was user error, but now it seems likely he's deliberately doing it for the publicity. Grounds for defamation, not likely, but scummy none the less. I definitely would not give him more attention at this point in content at least. Maybe a strongly worded letter from an attorney though...
0 grounds for defamation. The guy just seems incompetent.
@ivangerginov5648 Trade libel is a thing, but difficult. Once is incompetent, twice seems like it's for the views. Tony is Asus' China manager, so there's also that issue.
@@drewnewby It's his product though. He bought it, he can use it however way he wants.
Not exactly, when a corporate representative purchases a product to use it in a defamatory way, for indirect promotion of their brand, trade libel can come into play.
Techgate when?
18:13 I don't know about new cpus but I remember using liquid metal to clean the solder from the die (9900k), I put a little bit on the die, moved around with a q-tip every 3 minutes, and then polished the die with a tiny amount of polish. Perfect mirror finish in the end. Zero scraping.
You learned that from Roman.
@@thor.halsli Probably, I don't remember exactly.
Scraping is quicker but more dangerous. Just use liquid metal and be patient. 2 or 3 applications, then some Flitz polish to really clean the die 🙂
@@ColinDyckesmore like 10 applications for 13900ks
@@Typhon888 I literally did 3 for about 15 minutes each, but applied quite a lot of LM and agitated it frequently. Same result.
It's obvious why his delidding failed, he applied forces perpendicular to the silicon.
ideally you ONLY apply forces perpendicular to the silicon during de-lidding.
Considering gamers Nexus and Jay's two cents both had similar results, I think your results are sound.
This one kind of flopped out of the box
Windows scheduler is the problem. See Wendels review.
there's still issue to be ironed out
@@madb132 And Phoronix
Says a lot they didnt have the competence to figure out there's an issue, unlike L1T and KitGuru among others.
As much as 20% improvements over 7k on linux or with scheduler tweaks in doze, for the same power
@@madb132 Windows is certainly an issue BUT its on AMD to sell a good product. Intel put the effort into ThreadDirector to fix the scheduling situation, while AMD hasnt and it shows.
Why all reviewers use PBO without touching Curve Optimizer/Shaper? Makes little to no sense to me. Curve optimizer was all the rage for 7000-series.
This.
Because it's too much work to expect a normal user to do it, a normal user will try and click on PBO but anything more that that only a very small amount of people will even attempt to try.
that's like saying reviewers need to undervolt their CPU to test it properly.
@@terrylaze6247 a normal user wouldn't do anything at all in the bios.
@@MaxIronsThird define "properly". Curve Shaper is a new feature available to 9000-series Ryzens and (almost) no one "tested it properly" (yet?).
Hope you guys have Arrow Lake delid and direct die kits ready soon. There's going to be tons of people moving into that.
nobody will be doing that as they will be failing and cooking themselves internally.
Nobody is moving to Intel 😂
@@JoeMama-yl1owprobably about the time amd almost doubles the tdp of their chips after the media lauded them for their power efficiency, despite single digit performance gains. How is AMD blowing this so badly? This is an extremely disingenuous launch, when all they had to do was be honest.
@@JoeMama-yl1ow hahaha wrong. cope harder fanboy
Nobody is buying Intel are you kidding me LOL
Must add, as I have seen it many times, the matte or dull look on the dies after delid is remaining indium solder.
If you don't polish it to remove absolutely all indium it will still alloy with LM, leading to a little 'dry out'. Unless you want to apply a really liberal amount of LM I recommend polishing the dies with cape cod or similar to get a perfect mirror on all the chiplets before putting on LM.
Zen5 is having issues. Wendell found that Windows is doing something seemingly wrong. Ancient gameplays found that core parking mostly hurt performance in his stuff
Nice work as always Roman, looking forward to seeing some proper direct die Results.
As for Tony Yu, that clown is simply looking for his 5 minutes of fame and as others have already stated, needs to RTFM! 😒
Romain at 21:43 - for fix very long boot time - try 2 parameters in memory timings settings : 1st - Memory Contex Restore = Enabled, 2nd - Power Down Mode = Enabled
Pretty sure most people are aware of this, especially someone with this background. It can lead to instability issues though
@@lolschrauberinstability only happens when memory context restore is enabled but power down is disabled. As long as you enable power down, there won’t be an issue with stability.
@@PowellCat745Roman would never run with Power Down enabled. Lol.
@@nexxusty power down does affect performance a bit, so I can understand people not wanting to enable it for a fast boot time.
we all know about this man, if the fix was this simple we wouldnt complain
Thanks to Intel forcing me to learn what exactly a load line is, and how Intel's use of Vdroop is different to Nvidia GPU's and AMDs everything.. I do find myself wondering if on the occasions performance seemed lower for no obvious reason, was there any difference between effective and reported clocks on the "more efficient" part? (If that's even a thing on AMD)
Tell Yu that you can't pry the ihs off. You'll definitely ruin the chip. That is something he should know. You can't blame the tool on ignorance.
I can explain the the benchmark result in CS2. Source 2 engine utilize as many physical cores as possible, as a result you are suffering from cross ccd latency.
To avoid it you should add -threads 8 or 9 in your launch option, this way it works normally. Same for 14900k and all other intel CPUs that have E cores, you should use -threads X, X represents the amount of P cores you have in your CPU. X+1 also works similarly.
with a small design change, you could even switch to a one screw design and still move the carriage back and forth
I see you also have picked up the planted terrarium hobby! I feel it goes hand in hand with PC building. I also picked up aquascaping of smaller nano tanks for Betta fish and Guppies.
AMD announced a new AGESA update for 9700x, also linux performance seems a lot better compared to windows (which indicates some sort of a potential scheduler inefficiency /bug ) last but not least these CPUs have been tested on what is technically last gen mobos (designed with zen4 in mind) maybe that's the reason for the strange results
Chi11eddog on X, AGESA 1.2.0.1a Patch A update - 65W to 105W. - 9600X + 9700X -
Even if this is the case, it's all on AMD if their software/hardware wasn't ready for the CPU launch.
All the poor release day results are accurate results and valid for review.
@@AceStrife well it doesnt make sense to look whos fault is what matter if they fix it or not in the near future lol
@@AceStrife I suppose there is a small possibility that these issues are due to something in a recent Windows update or something, something that AMD could not have predicted.
It is a bit odd that they suddenly decided to postpone the launch, sure there were some rumors about why AMD did this, but if AMD discovered these issues last minute, and were hoping that they could come up with a quick fix, that could be a factor.
CPU performance is better in Linux on every Ryzen generation, so it's not really unexpected to see 9000 series is doing better. It probably should be expected that 9000 series picks up a bit more performance as compilers are adjusted for it, but with the recent very poor core-to-core latency results for Zen5, it's starting to look more and more that Zen5 has some significant architectural regressions and issues.
Hopefully this is just another AMD RDNA moment, and Zen6 is going to take what Zen5 laid down and create another RDNA2 moment.
Thank you Roman! I am thinking of getting a 9950X and delid it like my 7950X is. Now I think I will hold off for a bit to see if this gets resolved. I have 3 different versions of your delidding tools so I know they work perfectly.
I think the unexpected gains from PBO are likely due to the EDC increase, it allows current to spike higher
According to hardware leaker Chi11eddog on X, an upcoming AGESA 1.2.0.1a Patch "A" update, will reportedly increase the TDP of the two Zen 5 chips from 65W to 105W.
EDC on the Ryzen 7 9700X and Ryzen 5 9600X
@@mrhassell unless this was a miscommunication, I am not sure if I like this, upping the specification after the fact is risky
@@TheBackyardChemist Fair enough, and apologies, for my apparent misunderstanding. The patch is making a major difference to power, huge!
Enabling EXPO and specifying PBO +200Mhz, helps a great deal.
(Precision Boost Overdrive)
Pretty much looks like a scheduler issue. Try disabling a ccd and check again versus the 7700x, 8c vs 8c on single ccd
Zen 5 has severe Memory Bandwidth/access limits
The bottleneck is Infinity Fabric in I/O die which is the same as for Zen 4
I/O die was even bottlenecking Zen 4, that's why X3D cache is so fast
Steps to do:
1. Re-Architect I/O die Infinity Fabric
2, Switch from obsolete DDR architecture to HBM2
Regarding your second point: Do you like paying 1000$ for 32GB of HBM2? That memory is in high demand in the server market and will be super expensive for the PC DIY buyers. not a good solution.
@@SoWeird4U that was true versus DDR4 but DDR5 is almost as expensive as HBM. And yes people are willing to pay for good performance
I'm not trying to buy my motherboard and ram as a package because the two usually need to be soldered together. And I don't want to pay $2000 for a motherboard and ram. No thanks, I'm fine with DDR5.
Is there something wrong with the beta bios? I also use the x670e hero. The latest bios is 2204/2302. The latest chipset driver is 6.07. Do they help?
PBO is very weird. On ryzen 5000 at least ive found best performance leaving EDC near stock but unlimiting PPT and raising TDC. Theres also numerous bugs with it across different bios versions
PaulsHardware noted that the mobo bioses were setting the fclock to 2100 instead of 2000 and that was causing some problems for him
Love the squeaking sound during delidding! :D
Tony is a clown
Who's Tony? who cares?
😅
@@madb132 did you watch the video ? tony is the clown that can't delid cpu properly
@@ThaexakaMavro he's saying Tony is irrelevant...
Tony should work at a steel demolishing place. All this fine work is not for him.
@@twiggsherman3641So irrelevant that Derbauer had to talk about him
False voltage and power readings?
Based on the 2 methods it looks like Tony Yu is trying to break the lid off too quick - applying too much pressure too early. Its just a simple case of DeBauer being more experienced.
Since you mentioned slow boot time I can’t help myself but to ask here, I have had a problem with the boot time on my 7900X since I purchased it new… I have an MSI MEG ACE X670E and my memory is 6400 CL 32 TridentZ . My problem is there regardless of with or without XMP enabled. So when it’s on 4800MHrz it would take around 30 seconds to post and around 41 seconds each time until Windows boots.
And when it’s on 6400 XMP it takes around 40 seconds to post and 52 second until windows startup .
Now I’ve just played with the timings and put it on 6000 CL 30. I’ve enabled “memory context restore” which followed that I had to enable “power down enable” as well. Now the mobo posts around 25 seconds and OS starts at 35. At this stage I cannot put the pc on sleep mode cause if I do the mobo won’t post.
If I hadn’t enabled “memory context restore”, any change from 4800Mhz to either XMP or 6000Mhrz would also render restarting the PC impossible cause again it wouldn’t post.
I changed the motherboard to an Asus X670E-E, boot time still didn’t change, changed the memory kit to one exactly like it, didn’t change, changed the M.2 drive from which the OS loads, didn’t change (obviously cause the problem is the time for it to post, not the OS). The only thing I haven’t changed is the CPU so that’s what I’m left with.
I really can’t understand it but guess the problem is with the CPU
On benchmarks it was very important to Oc the 9000 series, 6 ghz was 3700pts compared to 3400 5ghz iirc
also there are handfull boards have their CPPC remove during SOC incident year ago...its missing on 50% of amd motherboard vendors ...something AMD failed to mention to their partners that its a must to have for windows 11 core parking software driver support for gamebar mode
Everyone thought we were likely to see the same improvement from 9000 as we did from 7000 over 5000. It seems the big bump from 7000 was the entire AM5 change and now that’s baked in perhaps 9000 hasn’t got that much to give.
I like how you sort by 1 % low I think all reviews should do this
12 mins in you say you're running the same BIOS as 9600x?
Transistor downscaling means noise and aging at high clocks
I installed the heat spreader and Corsair water block temperatures are fine however the CPU die average temperature goes to 120°C . Is this normal? I am running at 5050ghz while gaming it doesn't throttle at all.
Fun fact: Tony is the head manager of ASUS China😂and asus is a big customer of thermal grizzly since many rog laptop models use thermal grizzly liquid metal😂
So he's running on ASUS settings? Maybe they should reset him to defaults.
So ASUS is trying to tarnish someone else reputation. Typical Chinese scam artists.
@@coffeejn for the record he never blamed the delidder, nor had the intention to purposely show it on camera, he just didn't know how to use it and the broken CPUs also attracts clicks very well, so🤷I wouldn't be racist just because of some marketing trickery
add a little bit of lithium grease to those threads to get rid of the squeak
@der8auer Unrefined zen 5 code, but more importantly, we need deeper dive on core parking & inter-core latency. A method to disable core-parking
AMD's Rocket Lake moment.
The guy that delidded and broke his own CPU had a grace of a drunk truck driver after 18 beers
That's what happens when you didn't pay for your own CPU, but got it for free
I am also trying to understand that leak benchmark stating 9950X can do 48000+ score in Cinebench R23
did you make sure to set your bios to chose driver for the core parking feature?
All these re-install of Windows kills performance on m.2 drives, I killed an PCIe 4.0 Corsair 500Gb drive installing MSFS2020 7 times when the problem was an Windows problem not letting me use my umlaut equipped name letters that had been working for 20 years. The drive went from +4000 mbit/sec to 500mbit. Could this be part of your problem Romain?
What a difference to your TG delid tool for the 13th and 14th gen Intel chips. One single move and it was done with my 14900KS. I heated to 70C in an oven to soften the glue.
I just did my 13900ks also. No heat one pass about 2min lol
Roman, are you using the Performance or Balanced power profile? Usually, AMD multi-chiplet (also Intel hybrid chips for the matter) scheduling and power optimizations only apply when the Balanced power profile is enabled.
I understand that you reinstalled the OS and the AMD CPU drivers, not just reset the OS. Bear in mind that during the Windows installation, different power and scheduling optimizations are performed if you use multi-chiplet or hybrid CPUs. These optimizations are not reconfigured after the OS installation is finished, even if you reset the OS. Also, the AMD drivers install additional components when a multi-chiplet CPU is put on the system but if you first use a single CCD chip and then switch to a multi-chiplet CPU, the driver won't be reinstalled and the additional components/settings won't be installed/configured.
Also, is there any reason why you are using 6000 MT/s DIMMs with the Intel CPU? I understand that if you're looking for the best performance, you can use faster memory and if you're looking to run it without voiding the warranty, Intel currently supports up to 4400 MT/s if I recall correctly -- I know AMD officially supports up to 5600 MT/s even though AMD recommends to use 6000 MT/s to have an Auto:1:1 ratio with the Infinity Fabric Clock (FCLK), unified memory controller clock (UCLK), and memory clock (MEMCLK)...
Can you show the single CPU/s you are actually reviewing as a different colour in the graphs? Makes it so much easier to assess the data instead of constantly hunting for the relevant CPU in a list of 20 all the same colour thanks. Keep up the good work!
did you run cs2 with -threads 16 on commanline? (I guess no) Default is 3 btw.
2CCD delay is somehow worse than prior zen. THere is something wrong with the zen release.
gotta setup core parking, Steve went through the steps to make sure it was working.
The thing about all the hoops other reviewers had to go through to do core parking in games just shows how bad the core management in windows is. In linux you don't have to do any of that crap and there the 9950x really kicks butt in some scenarios, especially compiling. AMD should have had a chat with Microsoft and let them do all the required updates before shipping these CPUs. Apart from a BIOS update people shouldn't have to do anything for a new CPU.
Have you tried testing it with Windows 10? I heard weird things about Windows 11 on these CPUs.
This isn't even a problem with not competing with X3D as some have stated. The 7950X competed with the 5950X, the fact that you don't even see a 5% increase is alarming and points to even X3D being trash no upgrade as well. This isn't just a bad launch it is a failure. All they had to do was deliver similar to what they did in the past and they couldn't even deliver 15%. The stagnation is real, they said Intel is dead what are you gonna buy desides us.
tbh these cpus would have been in development since before the intel saga. These would have been started to get developed a couple years ago when they where doing really well and probably let their quality slip.either way its probably close to an industry first when generational improvements where negligible. we don't even get any new technologies or features to make up for it.
Unfortunately this may be pointing to the hard truth that we are reaching silicon's limit of performance. Dropping in size isn't giving us beter performance anymore and may even be causing problems that can't be solved unless we start making cpus out of graphene.
@@darkkingastos4369not the silicon limit of performance, but the limits of size. You can't make things any smaller. We are already at traces and transistors being 3 atoms wide. You can't go any smaller. Technically you can, but you need to drop frequencies and use a lot more volume of silicon, so it's not that great.
I think it's partly because AMD skipped a learning generation , because Zen 3 was supposed to get a Zen 3+ desktop variant. AMD's memory controller isn't particularly strong to utilise DDR5 having 4 dimms populated, it runs at 3600mhz, which my B550 board can do. I like the thermal behaviour of Zen 5 over Zen 4, but that's only because AMD needlessly changed things from Zen 3. It's a failure of a product Zen 5 built on an expensive poorly selling AM5 platform, I agree.
@@darkkingastos4369 That isn't what happened here, at least not provably. Just shrinking the size alone can give performance but we don't know what changes they made under the hood. This looks like stagnation to me. It is worse than when Intel only targeted 5% IPC gains yearly. This barely hits 3% increase over the 7950X. That is what you call an abject failure. It would have been a fine launch if they had not promised 15-40% increases which were not delivered or priced everything so high, so old parts destroy the new ones. Again a marketing fail still.
If the X3D variant cannot even beat the 7800X3d by 5% we will know Amd is cooked. Not because they failed to deliver on performance, but because they priced it so high when it fails to deliver. They need to fire everyone in marketing/pricing and start from scratch.
Did you run the tests with the updated bios for the 7900x3d and 7950x3d that fixed core parking issues? Apparently you have to enable this feature for the 9900 and 9950x cpus
There is some material that 9000x has very high core to core latency even on the same die, can that be the cause of worse performance, and could that be the result of their new increased instruction speed at the cost of latency. Basically anything that needs cross core talking ( most of desktop use ) will run the same or worse than 7000x series.
I just rebuilt a x670e 7950x PC after my 13900k only started bluescreening so I still haven't tried them but I've seen several videos saying you need to disable options in AMD bioses for them to boot in a normal time like secure boot etc..Wendell also talked about that in one of his amd reviews when it came to 9000 weird behavior in benchmarks
What is the point using 6000mhz cl 30 ram on intel? I understand that amd cant go above 6400 but why limit intel that can go to up to 8400mhz (dont get me wrong i like AMD i have a 5800x3d)
That 7800x3d is the goat of them all. What a good chip.
AM4EVER! I probably will not upgrade till AM6 comes out given how good the x3d chips are. 5700x3d for the budget win baby!
thx for effort and saving me 700€, I will keep abusing my beast 7600x with pbo on 85°C thermalthreshold and -20mv curve opt 5.25 multi 5.5 singl thread 83°C max temp
I wondered what anomalies will show up after the delay of launch
Are there any cpus you havent delidded?
Doesnt exactly give consumer based values using liquid metal.
Really looking forward to the overclocking reviews . We will also get agesa updates .
Almost completely unrelated, I'd like to see your opinions on Thermalwright 360 clcs.
I feel like being half the price of other brand name clcs has to be worth talking about like surely there must be a catch, bit they seem just ad high quality as anything else from the reviews I've seen so far. Like the Notte, and Prism both look top quality.
Have we just been getting ripped off before?
Thr ryzen 7 7800X3D is now legendary. Going down in history with the 1080 ti
it is not at the level of the ryzen 4070
@@betag24cn 4070?
not really the 5800x3d/5700x3d is when you consider pricing
@@betag24cn Ryzen 4070 rules them all
treating the X3D as a XX90X model that have to be beaten mandatorily by the next gen or internet burns..... lol kids..... X3D is a WHOLE new league of CPU's and in fact AMD should change its name to not get confused by the other parts.... or kids will burn everything with the hate.
Was planning to build a 9800x3d system when it releases now I'm strongly considering just building a 7800x3d rig as it doesn't seem anything from the new gen is gonna be worth the silicon it's printed on...
19:50 You know.. what we like to call, the right way?
have you retested with the 23 and 24 patch?
9:35 SMT disabling on Cyberpunk and falling BELOW 9700x suggests that cyberpunk has around 16 active threads, the scheduler is spreading them evenly across all 16 cores. And the switching fabric is BROKEN (very very SLOW) like on Tyzen AI HX 370!
I know in recent days it's been admitted that it's Windows itself that is affecting performance. Not the AMD drivers.
Remember Windows 11 was built from the ground up to support Intel chips. To the extent it was released seemingly far too early to make Intel 11th Gen work.
I'd wait for the X870e chipset and faster EXPO II memory modules ... and of course for Microsoft to fix their threading issues on Windows 11 OS ("Game mode" shouldn't exist if the OS was developed correctly, band aid).
How is this difficult to review, it's crap, simple 😕
so small.. hahaha! idk about you... but I was laughing through pretty much the entire video.
6:20 hpad? what?!? edit: ohh you mean HPET
13:15 That's 1337!
Have you done the same tests in Linux? There's a couple of sites reporting that these CPUs performs better in Linux than they do in Windows, at least for now.
Is the thermal grizzly phasesheet ptm a rebranded honeywell ptm7950?
CCD problems on windows and perhaps some extra windows quirks behind some of the strange results.
The only circumstance one is allowed to skip results in a objective scientific experiment, is when one or a few results are obviously out of the ordinary. But that doesn't count when results are consistency off. In that case the conclusion would be according to the results.
All I know is that AMD CPUs aren't crashing and need to be "patched" like Intel CPUs... Love hearing the Intel fanboys trying to explain that BS away... 🤣
Delidding ASMR is kind of awesome, really. Thumbs up!
The die will crack when the user considers the IHS to be sufficiently sheared off and attempts to pry the IHS off when it has not been completely sheared off the die.
I have yet to get a AM5 Delid tool but i definitely need to the intel V1 has been absolutely amazing as it has more then likely saved my 14900K from Certain Death with it's incrwsed surface area for cooling better. Just sucks i bought into intel right before the degradation issues surfaced 🤦♂️☠️
I think we can all appreciate your demo of the delider and feeling required to address it. I think this guy Tony Yu is just wasting your time and while I'm not one for threatening legal action it might be a necessary evil to get him to stfu and stop wasting ppl's time.
So the same or slightly less than what I get in R23 with my 14900K (~43.5K at 5.8/4.6/5.0) before delidding in my loop, just about 50w less and worse performance in games? The 9950x seems way over hyped compared to what it actually delivered so far.
Having to communicate across CCD, or migrate threads from one CCD to another, to compute a game frame could be the same old reason why dual-CCD parts lose in some games vs single CCD parts.
The latency with any given app running across multiple CCDs is usually worse than the same app running strictly within one CCD, so for extremely low-turnaround-time ("low-latency") tasks like generating a game frame in just one 700th of a second (~1.42ms), +/- other random sources of system noise, every bit of latency matters there.
Maybe a UEFI/firmware/OS update or two can help with the scheduling, I'm not sure.
It seems that these Ryzen have problems on Windows... on Linux it have huge performance. Plus, changing cores cause some problems so I suppose that it need a fresh Windows OS (not your case).
I have a simple question. Why do testers seem to always use Cinebench R23 instead of the newest one (24)?
Windows seems to have issues with these new cpus, Sometimes running as admin improves perf, and other issues. Level1Tech's mentioned these issues in their new vid.
the 9000 launch is as if ryzen lauch would have been like 2 ghz cpus barely matching bulldozer but with huge power efficiency
Seems like this cpu was a nightmare to review, I was seriously thinking about getting one as an upgrade over my 7800x3d...ill be waiting for the next x3ds instead.
did you enable core parking ?
AM5 released too early, and Zen 5 is just, an unfinished product barely. It's annoying Zen 3+ never came to desktop, with X3D, as the redesign from Zen 3 to Zen 4 and the high motherboard prices and DDR5 just never sold in poor climate. AMD haven't given any response to World wide negative criticism of their latest and greatest. Fools.
Damm dose vexels would look sick in VR