Women in the Orthodox Christian Church - Frederica Mathewes-Green
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- Опубликовано: 27 июл 2024
- In this episode, Khouria Frederica Mathewes-Green discusses women in the Orthodox Church.
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I like that orthodox church has more structured gender roles, as a woman it draws me to orthodoxy more than protestant sects. As a former atheist, it seems like orthodoxy is the ONLY religion that actually sticks to their "guns". The church is supposed to be not of the world, dont let modern culture change the church, voluntary submission is such a gift of being a woman and a jewel to enjoy, there are so FEW places to lean into the feminine role, please please please don't let that slip away.
you have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous misjudgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?)
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
At least in my 24 years as an Orthodox Convert, I’ve felt more valued as a woman than my previous 36 years as a Protestant.
Yes, our Priest and Deacon are males but leadership in the Parish doesn’t entirely rest on them. Our Parish Council President, Chanter, Youth Leader are women. Myrrh Barer’s read prayers during Matins at the Angel Door of the Iconostasis. Women at Monasteries I visit (Nuns) assist Priests.
There are Icons of women Saints in our Church and their names and stories are commemorated both in words and song.
We all have a Mother, the Theotokos and ever Virgin Mary who we honor.
Men, women and children honor the Mother of our God!
Women read the Epistle and girls are part of the Altar Service, holding blessed bread baskets during the Eucharist.
I’m sure I’ve missed some things. Finally, Orthodoxy is not a faith where I’ve felt marginalized as a woman at all!
Yes! I too have felt more value as a woman... REAL value not make believe to shut me up about it value as I experienced in Protestantism.
you have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous misjudgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?)
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
This is the sort of person I could listen to all day. Very wise.
I've never met this woman, yet I feel as though she is a close family friend.
you have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes of women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous mis-judgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle (meaning "one who is sent off") and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?). They didn't believe her until they saw for themselves, by heading to the tomb, that Christ was risen. But they never believed her.
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
Thank you. Great points. The humility in Orthodoxy is a large part of what is attracting me to it.
Thanks to God...glad you found us!
you have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes of women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous mis-judgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle (meaning "one who is sent off") and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?). They didn't believe her until they saw for themselves, by heading to the tomb, that Christ was risen. But they never believed her.
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
As a new Orthodox Christian, I am satisfied having the protection, kinship, friendship, THERE ARE JUST NO WORDS FOR IT, of the Mother of God. It is the women's lib movement and rebellion of other forms of Christianity that stirs women to want more in Orthodoxy.
I'm a girl and orthodox but I don't mind that women are not a priest or they don't have the same role as men. my grandmother participates in the church and she was happy with her roles as women and her limits. she helps the priest by bringing food from the church communities and give the food to the homeless with the priest. I believe equality between women and men but not in the church.church have it is own value and there are different roles between women and men, and we should respect it.
Thanks for your comment, Mimo!
Galatians 3:27-29 KJV
[27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
@@Candaicelovesjesus This does not address the roles of men and women in the church so not sure why you are quoting this.
Beautiful person. Beautiful interview. I have struggled my entire life fitting in somewhere with what I believe and try to practice. I didnt realize until very recently it's Orthodoxy. I've lost friends, been betrayed etc. But, it's so peaceful to me to strive to walk in the way. Now I need to find a church! Blessings.
you have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes of women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous mis-judgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle (meaning "one who is sent off") and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?). They didn't believe her until they saw for themselves, by heading to the tomb, that Christ was risen. But they never believed her.
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
Well-stated discussion, especially regarding how our faith is not about power, but rather about humility.
you have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous misjudgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?)
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
@@justinaacuriouswanderer1496 thank you for sharing
I love Frederica! Just finished two audiobooks of hers in the car. This was a great episode.
Adam Shellard hi! I talked to you on Instagram.
@@user-xc1fq2qy8y fancy seeing you here! 😂
Thanks to God...glad you found it edifying!
you have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes of women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous mis-judgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle (meaning "one who is sent off") and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?). They didn't believe her until they saw for themselves, by heading to the tomb, that Christ was risen. But they never believed her.
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
@@ProtectingVeil
Hello. Forgive me. regarding the video, we have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes of women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous mis-judgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle (meaning "one who is sent off") and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?). They didn't believe her until they saw for themselves, by heading to the tomb, that Christ was risen. But they never believed her.
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
It's secular society that conditions us to believe that we have to be like men and have what men have in order to feel valuable. It's simply not true. What women offer to society is just as valuable. And remember we have female saints who were neither wives or mothers.
I was raised in the protestant tradition but have been looking into Orthodoxy. This is such a welcome and unique perspective. I love it.
Oh that's great, I was born Orthodox but I've only started actually taking it seriously a year ago. It's the true church 100% compared to everything else.
Thank you for the insightful interview. I
Thanks to God...glad you found it, Summer!
Amazing! This woman truly understands how rich women are in God, but she is not blind to the intimidation many women feel. Some churches may shun women for worshiping as men do. As for me, I am glad to get to worship Jesus at all!
Perceived "intimidation" does not equate to actual intimidation. This perception is something that needs to be overcome by women not catered to by the Church.
Federica is right
It’s all about hunger for power and not a call from the holy spirit
We should be aware
Thank you
I find myself needing to encourage humbleness in women. We forget that women can be egotistical too. I think to become metushka of a church is a fine title and it's up to you what you do with that
I find that women today are far more egotistical than men.
Hi Herman, thanks for the videos
My only comment is I would like the interviews to be available uncut. It is hard when listening at work to have to reload videos every 5 or 6 minutes.
They are informative though and I believe guiding me to where I probably need to be.
Duly noted...thanks for your comment. In the meantime, I have put them in to playlists, where they auto-play all of the videos from one interviewee...
Good idea! Thanks again for making this available.
Great word.
I just visited an Orthodox church for the first time this week, and I noticed that all of the individuals "up front" were men, but I wasn't sure if this was intentional or happenstance on the night I attended. Thank you for answering some of my questions! Love Frederica Mathewes-Green.
Thanks for stopping by...I pray God will continue to direct your steps...
Fantastic ! Thank you!
love it: not more power, but different power
Greetings from Serbia!
Christ is Risen!
Христос Васкрсе!
Ваистину Васкрсе!
Christ is Risen!
Truly, He is Risen!
Smart lady.
wow…so wise ☺️🙌🏼
based
Good interview! Holy Spirit was working in her life to help her see the deception before she became a Christian. I think that is the case for many of us.
This was fascinating! Not what I expected o.0
Hopefully fascinating in a good way?! Thanks for stopping by!
All fascination is in a good way; it implies engagement! Now whether I was fascinated in relation to things I felt were positive or negative is a better question, and more a matter of personal preference.
Indeed! Very glad that you found it engaging!
Christ calls All people to repentance and conversion.
It’s interesting that she focuses on the idea of women following a calling to the priesthood as pursuing power. Women were leaders in the early church and that changed once the Christianity became the official religion of Rome and the church became an agent of the empire. Perhaps the movement to remove women from positions of authority in the church had more to do with power than the Holy Spirit. I find it difficult to believe no women in the Orthodox Church feel a calling to the priesthood or deaconhood. When barring half your membership from fully exploring their faith, it might be good for the church to continually revisit the subject and ask how much of this is the will of man to retain power and put themselves above others or if this is truly the direction the Holy Spirit is leading you. Sometimes it’s hard to tell the difference without much self examination.
As an admitted outsider who has not fully investigated Orthodoxy, I would add that both men and women can be conditioned to a long-standing structure that institutionalizes one or more significant errors. This is a commonality to falling civilizations throughout history. So, I would question whether it is merely the men - generation after generation - who are determined to maintain their roles at the top. Women are also gaining from not taking on overt leadership roles. Just sayin. It is rarely the surface that tells the entire tale.
Secondly, I question how Orthodoxy addresses the New Testament passage wherein the declaration was made that there were no longer “ male or female, Jew or Greek, slave or free” people, but all as one and the same in Christ. Seems radical to ignore the connotations to this passage and its challenges to cultures of that era and our own.
@@itechnwrite I think Christianity has a call to do no harm. Jesus says the ultimate commandments are to love God and love your neighbor as yourself. Christ guides us to see all actions through that lens. When the Church denies the full faith experience of a portion of its members because of an inherent trait, it is causing great pain. In any such case, it should be continuing to put such policies through the lens Jesus presents to us and seeking to do no harm.
Ναζωραῖος - I am not one to push a feminist or any other agenda when it comes to seeking truth. I do, however, see examples of women actively engaged in leadership within scripture. Miriam led the daughters of Israel in dancing, singing and with tambourines. Moses did not intervene, so it must have been acceptable at that time. Deborah was a highly regarded judge in Israel...sought out by men and women of her day. Perhaps the specifics of the role of leadership impacts, I do not assume to know or see from all angles.
None of that justifies or gives license to sin or takes anything away from men. People tend to interpret to match their existing views and preferences. That doesn’t mean everyone who questions is doing so out of self-serving intentions.
@@itechnwrite The same New Testament says that women are not allowed to teach men or to hold authority over them.
More soy protestant nonsense.
Things are beautiful when they work according to their nature. A woman is not the same as a man in any species which God created-- not in birds, not in fish, not in apes. Men may lead the family and church but women are blessed because we introduce life onto the world. We are given different callings, we are symbiotic but different.
Don't female black widows kind of rule their kind?
@@ljss6805 Are you a child?
@@arnoldvezbon6131 What an adult comment.
@@ljss6805 Pointing out the silliness of your retort is adult behavior. Hopefully you take the correction. Thanks for noticing.
@@arnoldvezbon6131 At this rate, you'll be asked to repeat 4th grade.
Very well put, especially as regards American feminism.
"to be his helper that is his equal"
Thank you for great videos, already subscribed and following you on Instagram❤️
Who are the Holy Elders Desert Mothers in Orthodoxy Holy Mary of Egypt and St Kathrine Egypt heard Eldress Gabrielle can’t find any references . Who are the Nuns on Mt Athos Monasteries
There are no "nuns" at Mt Athos. There are no "desert mothers". St Maty of Egypt repented in tear for 20 year to get rid of the spirit of the contentious woman.
I see an inconsistency, she says there was a time when women were deacons, then she says they should not. Who decides this? (Scripture or something else) appreciate if you could clarify?
St. Ignatius of Antioch
100A.D.
In the ancient Church there were deaconesses, which were something entirely different from deacons. They were not "female deacons" as feminists make them out to be. They had a very limited role ministering only to women, and they had no clerical part in the liturgy. They existed solely to baptism adult women (when all adult converts were baptised fully nude) and to bring the presanctified Eucharist to widows or other single women, when it was seen as improper for a man to enter the home of a single woman. Neither of these scenarios exists anymore, so the position has fallen out of use.
Ordained clergy - bishops, priests, and deacons - have always been and always will be exclusively male.
people who are orthodox often speak so coherently against modern struggles ,
I’m trying to do research on orthodox Christianity. My concerns with women in orthodoxy is how women are treated within the culture. How does orthodox Christianity see women in general?
Your concern is you ego and lack of humility.
In the Ethiopian Orthodox tewahdo church women not being a priest is exegesis of as God came to earth being a man is because in the old testament church is referred to as a female and the bond that God have with church is symbolized as a love of male and female because he crucified for us gave as Eucharist for the sake of us his children so as man and women Got Married they give birth to children and that's symbolizes the continues giving birth of church to Orthodox Christians with his flesh and blood so as Son of God Jesus is the Chief priest in the new testament. That's why women can't be a priest
I think she mentioned the most important thing: if the Holy Spirit wanted women priests, He'd have led the church to do it. Nothing is possible with God, remember? If he wanted it, it would be done. I feel that women who find it troubling that they can't do anything g they like I the church need to recognize that this is dangerously prideful and perhaps something they need to work on inside themselves. It should t be that important to someone who is dedicated to God, as we're supposed to be.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us sinners, Amen
Glory to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost, now and forever and unto the ages of ages, Amen
For me it is not about power. It is about being constantly told that women are inferior. I struggle to this day with the fear that God does not love me because I am a woman.
Yes woman tend to be delusional like that. That is exactly why they need men to help them overcome the silly insecurities. Humble yourself.
My understanding on this with God is that women are not made by God for the kind of Spiritual warfare that one must be able to confront as an authority figure as men are made to be in His Church. Though He obviously chooses some women for that role through History.
That this is Gods will in creation is obvious to those with eyes to see. We are made to be mothers, not fathers. A whole different kind of warfare. Which too has been forgotten as lived it seems. Our living place in the Kingdom almost forgotten.
Almost.
Glory to God!
Glory to God!
Why aren't women ordained as priests? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The modern american culture is very different. Out side of the church i believe in equality but in the church women are only involved in different activities than men not less important ones. Now priests are important but you cant have a church with out followers male and female.
Why do you make a distinction between "outside the Church" and within the Church? The Church should permeate every area of your life. The lie of sexual equality which has been forced on the West has been an absolute disaster leading to innumerable tragedies for no real benefit. All to satisfy the vanity of prideful women.
@@whitemakesright2177 Yes, Stalin, Hitler, Mao were the most vile of women. And all those women in their armies that killed hundreds of millions of people in less than 50 years. And the greatest killer, by percentage of human population, of all times, Genghis Han - she and her women warriors were the worst of all.
Sorry, but you only speak nonsense. You say you are an Orthodox, but everything you espouse is inspired by another type of angel, not those that glorify God. Even your name - so St. Moses the Ethiopian wasn't right because he wasn't white ? The same for the Holy Chinese Martyrs ? St. Mary of Magdala is not Equal to the Apostles, as the Church teaches ? She did wrong in trying to convince the men that Christ had resurrected ? She did wrong to go to Rome speaking the word of God - including to the Emperor ? Queen Tamar the Great of Georgia was a reigning queen and is also a Saint - so the Orthodox Church of Georgia is heretical ?
The Church is not of this world, God reserved ministry for men (and I, for one, have no problem with that), He had little to say about companies or business in general - other than it is wrong to chase certain aspects of wealth and power, but that is for both men and women.
@@cristinac196 Feminism opened the floodgates to abortion, which the feminists consider their most revered sacrament. Worldwide, 70+ million babies are killed every single year. Feminism has killed more than Communism and Nazism combined. And that's only deaths, saying nothing of the immense societal devastation caused by the targeted destruction of the family, i.e. easy divorce, female "independence," etc. Try again.
You have no idea what my name means, so don't assume that you do. I'm not a white supremacist, if that's what you're implying.
Historically, Orthodox societies enforced different social roles for men and women in all areas of life, not just in the Church. Men and women were made different by God to perform different tasks. Yes, there are many remarkable women in the history of the Church and in the life of the Church today. And none of them were feminists, far from it. Feminism is a Satanic ideology which encourages pride, envy, and selfishness. It is the opposite of Orthodox virtue.
This is not to say that women are inferior to men (though there absolutely is a proper hierarchy in a marriage) or that they are unimportant. Women are a critical part of the Church, of families, and of society at large. But there are certain things that women are not well suited to - namely, career ambitions and politics - and for them to pursue such things, especially at the expense of their families, is bad for everyone, especially themselves. I hope you can see that, dear sister. If you are a feminist, the person you are hurting most of all is yourself.
@@whitemakesright2177 True, I hadn't counted the abortions. However, perhaps men don't talk about such things, but women do. In my life, I have only met one woman who aborted without her partner being involved in the decision. For the rest (fortunately, not many women I knew aborted), men were VERY involved in the decision.
Regarding your name, forgive me for saying so, because it is said in good faith: assuming is a natural response, that has it's ground in survival strategies. So a name that creates easy confusion is not helping anyone, including the one that uses it.
I'm not a feminist, but I am also not a "women should stay at home" type. I do believe in Render unto Caesar etc. Whenever The Church gives opinions about business structures, state structures, it oversteps it's bounds and it makes a mistake, that can harm the Church as much as society. No, I don't believe at all the teachings of the Saints were meant for the business field or the work environment in general, or state structures. I believe that in the world, men and women should follow their calling - jobs, politics etc. Those that are wise and are believers will balance things, because it can be done. Those that are not, will not find balance no matter what they do.
@@cristinac196 What I mean was that the ideology of feminism was to blame for the abortions, not necessarily that they were carried out by women themselves (certainly many abortionists are male). In the same way, many German women supported their Nazi husbands, Communist women supported their husbands, etc.
Women in the workplace is feminism, period, a modern innovation. In traditional societies women's work was exclusively at home. Especially when a woman had a child, she wouldn't dream of leaving the child for the sake of money. Mothers who leave their children are bad mothers, period.
Regarding the Church's teachings applying to the world, I'm sorry to say it bluntly, sister, but you're simply incorrect. The Church's teachings are for every area of life. The idea that the state is outside the purview of the Church is a modern one which comes from the heterodox. The idea that the Church has nothing to say about work or society at large is even worse. Every part of our lives should be suffused with the Church and her teachings. We should strive to sanctify and illumine the entire world. We are called to make the world more like the Church - so if the Church has specific roles for men and women, and marriage (which is an icon of the Church) has specific roles for men and women, then why would the broader world be excepted from these roles?
The Church has no "bounds" to overstep. She is all-encompassing, the center of our lives. She is the Body of Christ. Did Christ ever give any exceptions to His teachings? Did He ever say that any of His teachings don't apply to business or politics? You forget the second part of His reply to the Pharisees: "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's." Well, everything is God's. Like the Theotokos (a type of the Church), the Church is more spacious than the Heavens. As the Synodicon of Orthodoxy proclaims, Orthodoxy is the Faith that has established the Universe.
We are called to be apart from the world, in it but not of it. Neither women nor men have any "calling" from God which is contradictory to the teachings of the Church. If your belief is in tune with the Church, then why was this not expressed in the first 1900 years? Why did women enter the workplace only in the 20th century with the rise of atheistic materialism? For that matter, men leaving their families to go work for someone else, in some other place, is a modern innovation which has created great societal damage in and of itself.
Приятная бабушка. Я не всё понял, но в целом согласен. Не вожделейте власти, но радуйтесь, что Бог вас жалеет. Священникам весьма трудно, и мало спасающихся.
Women are ordained to be mothers.
And so many in the modern age fight so mightily against this very high calling, mostly due to their pride.
@@whitemakesright2177 what does your username mean?
Men are ordained to be fathers and still can be priests. What point are you making?
@@kellyanna94 The point I’m making is women are not called to be priests. Pull your head out of your ass!
@@stevensonrf what a Christ-like response 👍👍👍
Yes, In Ethiopia orthodox church it is well explained why women don't have the same role with men in the church.
Thank you for having Matuska Matthew-Green share her views.
My family are members of St George of Troy (MI) Antiochian Orthodox Church. Father Joseph allows my granddaughter to serve behind the Altar as an Altar Server; she is 15 years old, she has been serving behind the Altar since she was seven.
There are many times on major Feast Days, especially during Great Lent's Presancitified Liturgy, she is the only Altar Server.
My granddaughter has no thoughts of being a Deaconess or a Priest; she just wants to serve behind the altar to serve the Lord.
I'm sorry, but this is heretical liturgical abuse. The Church has taught from the beginning that women are not to enter the sanctuary at any time, especially during the liturgy.
@@whitemakesright2177 this is false, deaconesses served and were ordained behind the altar and in every womens monastery the nuns go behind the altar when there is a need
@@CatieD Deaconesses were never ordained. They were not clergy. They were consecrated for a very specific purpose. Yes, women can go behind the altar for certain reasons, but usually only when there are no men to do the things that need done, as in a women's monastery. Still, having a girl be an altar server in a parish is absolutely scandalous. Shame on both the priest and the bishop who allow that.
you have to keep in mind that Christ himself chose Mary Magdalene (who loved him and followed him to the point of death, death on a cross, risking her own frail life. Tho she wasn't a man. She left her family, an extremely arduous feat as a woman back then, to join Christ.). he chose her specifically to be the FIRST witness of his resurrected body. Because women weren't allowed to testify in court or to be witnesses, as men unjustly shamed them all of being deceptive, untrustworthy, and unworthy witnesses, while deliberately denying women even the thought of education. Playing both the rival (they deny women education) and the judge (they judge women of being unintelligent and untrustworthy) against women. (You would expect that since they wouldn't want to believe a righteous female witness anyway. Why? Because men want power. Or... wanted sole power and no competition from women back then.). Women were deemed "gateways of the devil" by the highest church fathers. "beasts incapable of reason". "curses to mankind". "devoid of the image of god". "unworthy of being ever listened to even if they say noteworthy or even saintly things". "a mind weaker than man". "a misbegotten man". All those labels came from the mouths of church fathers who were swayed and oscillated by the already hateful, barbaric, woman-molesting, pedophilic, pagan culture if you've read history. The pagan romans even accused christianity of being a weak, invalid religion "believed by the worthless, frail-minded likes of women and children". (it was invalid, to the pagans, simply because it had women. They viewed that as the infamous "emasculation". Whatever that insinuates). They were viewed that way and even worse since the very time of Moses which influenced how he depicted women in all the stories he wrote--that most jewish philosophers, thus, regard as metaphorical rather than literal. You cannot deny that the Bible was influenced by culture. It wasn't an encyclopaedia from the future. So women were the least among everyone. The most despised. Despised without cause. They weren't Hitler or Stalin. But Jesus's main banner was that the "least among everyone is the greatest". That's why he chose the despised, abused, forgotten, ill-treated Mary. Wasn't he despised and rejected by men too? A man of suffering, and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hide their faces he was despised, and men held him in low esteem.
And you say that the church, for a measly 2000 years (out of the vast timelines of this universe in the eye of God) would be incapable of error? Impervious to heinous mis-judgements? Misconceptions? These misconceptions were fueled by the prejudiced culture. The culture influences how one talks, thinks, and conveys messages and even how they listen to the Holy Spirit. Because we are FALLIBLE human beings. Limited by the domain of time.
When Jesus chose Mary as his Apostle (meaning "one who is sent off") and Witness, she went to the male Apostles, to inform them of this marvelous happening.
Peter argued, as Valantasis mentions, that “Jesus would not have revealed such important teachings to a woman,” and that “her stature cannot be greater than that of the male apostles." (Is Peter better than Christ?). They didn't believe her until they saw for themselves, by heading to the tomb, that Christ was risen. But they never believed her.
The Gospel of Thomas even quotes Simon Peter as saying, ''Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life. '' (that seems like an infallible, immaculate, loving, non-criminal statement to you?)
The past 2000 years were tainted by such prejudices and unjustified hatred. It's because of the male competitive nature. Male moose fight each other with their horns, wanting to kill one another for females, or in humans' case: power.
There was one man that defended her, however, Levi, he said: "Surely the Saviour knows her very well. That is why he loved her more than us." (as did Mary love Christ till the end. And never denied him, even when all the cowardly men ran and left him drink the cup of pain alone, with the taint of betrayal, she still stood at the cross courageously. She never gave up on Christ.)
I believe that the church is indeed fallible. You may counter: "but it can't be fallible for long or indefinite periods of time".
Well, time is only relative. A day or even a moment of error (or denial as in Peter's case) to God is no different from a thousand years of error. Because God surpasses time. And a thousand years may seem too long of an interval relative to us because of our 70 to 80 year life span.
Again, the church is fallible, not for discreet periods of time, but it can be indefinite. For St. Paul said, 1 cor. 13:9 : "Our knowledge is incomplete and our ability to speak what God has revealed is incomplete." Their very ability to speak or articulate the messages of the Holy Spirit is incomplete. But one day, not now, the Complete (Christ) will come and the Incomplete (oppressions and misconceptions) will be done away with.
I don't think "power" is necessarily always a woman's desire when pursuing church leadership; even if that was the case, who says men don't pursue leadership for power as well? Selfishness exists in both genders as we know, so the "desire for power" argument doesn't completely work.
Regardless, there are women (both in Scripture and in the present day) who were born with natural leadership qualities and are able to serve the best as leaders - not just as moms and wives and nursery teachers, either! Why deny these women the ability and rights of such leaders, especially if they are found to be true to the faith and of good study and character?
It seems that the only option for such a woman is to pursue a different church...which sounds like a loss for Orthodoxy.
There are other opportunities for leadership within the Church which are not the ordained leadership of the clergy. St Paul is quite clear in 2 Timothy
Female leadership is explicitly against the Faith, per the Apostle Paul, so how can a woman be "true to the Faith" yet seek to be a leader?
Power, pride, contentiousness... All bad reasons and there is no good reason to go against clear scripture. There are no "rights" in Christianity.
Personally I would prefer women as priestesses because I would feel safer talking to them as there almost no chance of sexual abuse from their side. And please let us not talk about "women SHOULD NOT WANT TO become priestesses because it means they are hungry for power"... instead let us ask if most of men are making effort over centuries to get and keep the power, because they are hungry for power.. because if they have power over society/church, they have more freedom than women, who just serve and have no much rights to decide about issues in society/church.
Ma'am, the Bible is God's unchanging word. The Holy Spirit would never inspire something such as women's ordination, which the Apostle Paul expressly forbids.
I appreciate the point about pwr and humility. So important. However, I don’t think people who want to see women and minorities in positions of leadership are necessarily grasping for pwr. I’m one of those people. It’s largely about representation and respect, having people in decision-making roles who understand what those affected by leaders want and need. In America, esp, I’d like us to see women as wonderfully made -rather than what we use to insult men who don’t fit into a certain mold
Women are wonderfully made, but they are made for specific roles. They are not made for leadership.
Power? In the past, Women could not get loans without their husband consent. Women could not vote, could not participate in sports, did not get promotions, could not get published, could not go to medical school...etc. This is about respect... I know women pastors who were called by God. One's calling is not about power. When God calls, what are you supposed to do? Just sit on it? Ignore it? The early church did have women leaders.
Yes and society was much better then. The early church was called out by Paul for having "women leaders" and he told them to stop.