TIPS to getting PERFECT Center Imaging With Your Speakers !
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- Опубликовано: 23 авг 2021
- How to get great center imaging for audiophile speakers ?
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Yo ! Happy Tuesday everyone. If you have tips of your own, please comment em down below !
Hey Jay, what's the ETA on the Tekton Trubador review? Thanks.
Jay in a small room do you think it would be a better bass response if the tower speakers I have were in the corners kinda cadi cornered? I have a tight budget my room is 11' by 11'5" so I don't have a lot of space and I was just wondering if you thought a corner brings out more low response than say a flat wall surface? And I have 2 front ported towers and I just wanted to know what you thought... Thank you for putting in the work/money/time ect
@@yuzhang1974 Common sense, attention to detail, and most importantly: put in the effort. ;_
For me only.
My best trade off is so rewarding that was from mom yelling go outside and play.
So I did listen to mom advice.
I never known just how beautiful the middle of next week was.
Until last weekend listening to unwanted items that gotten toss out. I place in backpack Sony STR-VX250
Realistic Minimus 7 2gen.
Listing in the backyard.
I was clicking my heels
saying there's no place like home.
I found Audio Mr. Low GrandSlam with Jays Raal Ear Speakers.
Dreamland I was in shock as EMS hit me with the paddles twice.
Perfect Imaging on one side moms cleaning other side flying, on a broomstick.
Howdy Jay the UA panels you have did you get them directly from their website? Do you know if there is duty etc charged on them when they enter Canada?
For center imaging the 2/3 ratio of distance between speakers to listening spot is very important. The brain determines location based on time delay between ears of the same sound. A sound to the right hits the right ear first and the left ear some time later. A center image hits both ears at the same time. When speakers are too far apart, the sound from one speaker gets delayed more to the other ear than it should and the brain gets confused, loses imaging.
Paul Klipsch understood this problem with his corner horns. Usually too far apart because of them being in the corners, he created a center channel speaker to produce the center fill. Of course a 3rd center speaker was considered heresy at the time! So that is what he named it!
I am very good achieving soundstage and imaging, it is obligatory to use panels because the key to get imagine is to kill all speakers reflections possible, you need a Rug on the floor where interferes with the floor reflection of the speaker, you need wall panels using a mirror you get seated in your listening position and where you see the speaker on the mirror put a panel there, in the cealing the same you can use small panels located with a mirror also, some panels in the wall back of the speakers I use 5 ASC 10x48 inches panels and behind the listening position wall put a big panel as you have here on your video, in that matter you kill the most important reflections, some friends ask me if I have a center speaker hidden and I laugh, you get imaging and you'll get big soundstage.
Great video. We all spend time laboring over equipment purchases and acquisition and few of us get the most from even modest gear because placement and acoustics is harder than swiping a credit card sometimes. I am always amazed at how physical movement of my gear can change EVERYTHING
Right on
The blanket over the flat screen is spot on and is a great, economical "first" acoustical room treatment to enhance audio listening. If you sew or know someone who does, you can even get some nice fleecy printed fabric at the store and sew a simple "TV slip cover" to stay on the screen. It may not get you into Architectural Digest magazine, but it's a bit more upscale than a draped blanket and may make some household members happier.
I ran a curtain rods and spilt open a king size bed sheet what a nice pattern and Halloween's coming up so I have a orange and black diamond one that a little Ikea light shining up to luminate the bed sheet
Oh wow thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and time you've invested in the audio experience. I have a giant Bluetooth speaker and TV between my bookshelf speakers and I rearranged everything around and wow! I have a different pair of speakers! Hats off to you bro!! Thanks again...
Thanks so much for taking on this subject. I have fooled around with speaker toe in and room acoustics for some time. It does make a difference, even if subtle, I can hear it. Improved imaging can make music more exciting to listen to!
From the time I was in my early teens, I've been fascinated by speakers and what can be done with imaging. I played with phase and location to move the image around the room. As far as center image, I've never found a pair of speakers that cannot put an image between the speakers. The tricky part is what many refer to as Air. Where the different instruments have a distinct place in the sound stage, where they were intended to be in the recording.
Love these short informative video's
Thank you for the fun informative video!
Can't wait for the troubadour review
My friend got a center channel speaker… perfect center imaging.
All day use here from an amateur: My speakers are on ear level but I had to move my speakers back to the wall.. witch is normally not the way to do it.. for bass and so on.. but having a reflective tv in the middle made me do it.. Imaging is better because my room reflections and the TV and the lack of furniture all work together. It is all room dependable. I live in a reflective paradise. Tile floor, brick wall, cement ceiling. Thank you for your videos
Don’t change a thing my man. I appreciate you sticking around to finish the topic instead of short changing us to fit it in under two minutes. Although, I would consider changing the name to “When I’m good and damned finished Wednesdays” ha ha. Great vid and great tips.
excellent presentation
furniture between the speakers = Move the speaker beyond the front of the furniture, so the spewakers can present the soundfeild they were designed to create. Speaker panel line of sight. This what I did and it sounds great, with a slight toe in to project the image into the room further. Great response.
Exactly what I did when I had a large tv between my speakers. I pulled the speakers out ahead of the tv and got my image back
Lol great try Jay you did your best to get it all into 2 minutes 🙂👍🎧.
I also was laughing at this video because funnily enough I discovered I had a terminal switched around the wrong way on my amp only yesterday. It was driving me crazy I couldn't work out why I couldn't get the imaging right now I'm in heaven.👍
My Fyne Audio F501's amazed me the first time I watched a movie without a center channel.
I couldn't believe how well they center image with my garbage budget receiver, zero acoustic treatment, a big flat bare wall almost everywhere, my left speaker in a corner when the right speaker isn't and even a large coffee table smack in between me and the speakers.
The only problems I have are a bit of bass bloom from the left and some high pitch tones from old movies exclusively, like Bond films from the 60's and 70's (haven't reached the 80's in my marathon with this new setup yet). I am going to do some acoustic treatments before I bother upgrading my setup, since winter is coming and I will be using the system more.
Crazy thing is it was worse before, but since I put my Monolith 788 as a dac it improved the sound quality significantly, especially when not in pure direct. I'd have hoped so anyways since the headphone amp/dac cost more than my receiver LOL.
Nice vid. People often underestimate importance of the space between the speakers. What you forgot to mention is the space behind your listening point. It’s nice to treat reflective surfaces back there as well.
Yo Oleskii ! short video ! can't cover everything haha. it is a large topic
@@oleksiifilippov68 already on it
I did get a horizontal equipment stand that’s pretty low and about 1 foot below my stand mounted speakers. Just don’t have the available room to put it elsewhere and not between the speakers. I did put some fabric on a side wall to lessen reflections so the center image wouldn’t shift to that wall when I move around.
0:24 😂😂 Great video Jay and Troubador review please!
Great tips! When I first started out in the hobby, I hung a blanket on the wall between the speakers and I couldn't believe how much it improved the soundstage. That inspired me to build my own broadband absorption panels using roxul, corner bass traps and skyline diffusers. Believe me, if I can do that, anyone can! Happy listening
Ha! Blanket over the tv is a great freaken idea. Thanks J.
I dig your channel and that is why I subscribed. That said this piece is not as relevant to me because I have Magnepans albeit the old MMG's in a smaller space setup perfectly ....so, that center sound thing is a piece of cake......thanks though for posting this....always good info!
As usual beautiful
Jay, having watched all of these new Tuesday specials I think you should make them 5 minutes instead!
I also have a tip on that center imaging quest as I have a situation where the speakers cannot be equally distant from side walls so the image moves to the side where the gap is larger (well it does in my room). If that's the case then you need to move the speaker closest to the sidewall slightly closer towards you and you will get the image back into the center. But, the room matters a lot so depending on the wall reflections in your room you might find the opposite works, so experiment on one speaker being slightly closer or further away.
Funny…my image runs a little to the speaker this is close to the side wall…if I get slightly out of the listening sweet spot. If I am in the sweet spot it is totally balanced!
@@bobb.9917 Hi Bob it's like everything in HiFi so many variables. In my room it's to do with sound compression being more difficult on the left side (as the soundwaves have further to go before being reflected by that wall). This changes the image position in my room as it takes a little longer for sound waves to arrive from that left hand side, so the image moves to the left. Then, even if you are dead center in the sweet spot the image is out a little. Hence allowing for that delay by moving the horizontal positioning of one speaker compared to the other corrects the image placement.
A good RUclips video on speaker placement approach is given by the tech at Sonus Faber called 'Sonus Faber | Choosing the Perfect Speakers & Speaker Positioning | Will Kline' (and there are a lot of others) but none are perfect. The Sonus guy has a clear set of sequential steps to get you most of the way there. Unfortunately getting it right takes a lot of moving around to get speaker placement and room adjustments just right.
Good advice! I think you might also have mentioned how far apart the speakers should be.
Nice to see you using Bluejeans cables
What 's your take on speakers placed on the short vs the long wall of a rectangular room? I know that the conventional wisdom recommends short wall placement, so that speaker fire down the length of a room, but is there any advantage in placing speakers along the long side of a room? (I 'm guessing two possible advantages would be that (1) you get close to a near field presentation and (2) you minimize the impact of side wall reflections to the point where you don't even have to treat the side walls for them.) Jay, a video on near field vs non near field (far field?) would be cool. Keep up the good work!
After troubleshooting for a while I discovered that one of my Tekton DI's binding post was installed upside down causing out of phase. Verified by Tekton via email. So you can't always look at the positive and negative and be confident. In the case of my DI's, the binding posts came "mirrored," but they should both have positive on the right side facing the back.
Damn, lol. Glad you figured it out
I've watched a lot of webinars by Anthony Grimani on Acoustics, in order to improve my new Home Theater in our new house.... I'm interested to learn why you switched from the 3D to the 2D diffusers. I'll look to see if you did a video specifically about that
Great point that each room is unique. Know what you are after, then get your speakers and listening position the way you and your ears like it. So the proverbial question is; absorption or diffuse at first refection points on the side walls? Cheers.
I would say diffuse it if small room and absorb it in a larger room.
@@seanb3303 Thanks! My next "audio journey". lol
most just add panels to the wall. now if using 2 " thickness if you move them out form the wall by 2" you can diffuse even go lower in fs 1200 to 600 vs using 4" thickness that will absorb way to much
Thanku
My favorite bookshelf, the klipsch heresy, is excellent on 18” stands such as a 12” subwoofer 🧐
which sub did you pair with the heresy?
R112sw. I had them before I started doing the audiophile thing 😝
They don’t have the speed of the heresy but the added depth really helps widen the sound stage and balances the treble a bit.
@@johnnixon2504 Klipsch should really get on making a sub for the heritage series! haha
If you have a problem room with limited damping
Have the speakers away from all the walls - the facing wall especially- and angled to cross in front of the listener
The distance between the speakers being the same distance of each speaker from the listener
It works
yes with the toe in. your removing some of lower highs from bouncing of the side walls. or lowering the extra output in the range the ear fs is very sensitive to
High end speakers are generally very tall with tweeters at or near the top so they aren't necessarily at ear height. I like mine @ ~ mid height floor to ceiling which places them about a head 'too high'. Feel free to play with tweeter height/stands.
I'm new to this. I've been playing with radically different placements of both my klipsch rp600m and ELAC ub52. (Also radically different sounding speakers.) So I've spent a lot of time tweaking placement and still learning along the way, trial and error of my own with some fundamentals I've picked up online.
I bought my first stands and since I'm 6' tall I went with 32" stands which place the tweeter on the elac around ear height. I'm finding that's probably where I want to be with those.
When I put the klipsch on those same stands, things get, well, brighter but I notice when I stand up and have my head slightly above the speakers, the sound is much fuller. I don't think it's as natural, but I do want to get the klipsch on shorter stands and do some critical listening because I feel like with those speakers I may want to be sitting above them slightly, rather than the tweeter at ear height.
Anyway my point is that I'm noticing how much potential there is to gain from setup and room acoustics and can't wait to get started clearing out my dedicated 2ch room and working on placement and acoustics further. I also like the casual approach to Jays video on this subject. I've watched some acoustical engineers speak about software and measurements and the science of it and that interests me too. However, I'm just not there with my gear or understanding. So some candid discussions on what works or what to try is what I'm after.
For instance. I'm on a first floor that is cement slab. The lower sub frequencies are gone and I'm thinking to elevate the sub off the floor a bit and have it fire toward my mid section as opposed to my feet. I have no idea what this will do. Other thought was to mount it up higher and angle it forward so the driver is angled at the concrete floor. Maybe I can bounce the lower frequency off and reflect it at my body and feel the lower octaves better?
@@erics.4113 My subs are 18" off of the floor and pointed towards the side wall in the corner. It's almost completely eliminated vibration thru the floor which I like. Even rotating the subs 90 degrees firing either towards me or the front wall is different and not as nice in my room. If my room was larger they might get put even deeper into the corner. If you see the typical sub/speaker setup that you see in most pictures they probably haven't player around enough with them. Also, with my setup I really don't hear a big difference when I lie down or stand up or even move around the room much.
@@Roof_Pizza I'm on cement floor so I don't have resonance there. Exact opposite. I feel like the low frequencies are being completely eaten by the floor. I've only got a single 12, so it's as close to back wall as I can get, directly between my stand mounters with the driver about 6" back from the stand mount speakers. That's giving me best response so far, but when I stand up the bass is so much stronger than in my listening position.
The corners of the room aren't clear currently but I will test there eventually.
But I'm looking to go dual and experiment with elevating off the floor as you have. Maybe in the 1 foot to foot and half like yourself.
@@erics.4113 Cool.
i use iems to listen to music and i still put blankets on my coffee table and i can feel the difference in imaging
I switched the cables on my amp🤦🏻 thanks man!
Great stuff. This is really helpful
I can't believe how quickly your hair has grown in.
Tweeters positioned on the outside of the speaker spreads the Sweet Spot. For pinpoint imaging, the tweeters, if not aligned vertically with the others, should be positioned inward.
These tekton speakers are designed to have the tweeters on the outside
Never had a issue with my tv in-between it at all. Matter in fact I had guys come here wondering how I did achieve the center image i have 😂
That being said I do use 6x4ft size speakers line source /dipole
Same here. I think center imaging is a psychoacoustic phenomenon where our brain combines left and right. I would like to see if someone can detect a change in imaging when blinded and an object were placed between the speakers.
How many Acoustic panels did you used to make that center diffuser?
We want a Troubadour review
whats up bruh. how much do those blue tektons u got retail for. and are they still a current model. would they work good with a mcintosh ma7200 integrated amp.
Hey Jay. Thanks for the tips. I'm wondering have you done a dedicated video on accoustic panels? If not, consider this comment a suugestion. :) P.S. I've been eyeing UA panels for a while now, but with your recommendation I'm likely to pull the trigger. If only there was a good instructional video on which ones, and how many to get...
I'm in too. Would be down for a video where you go over your room. I have only begun to design my room in my head and haven't researched product yet.
Hi, can you provide a link to that acoustic diffuser, tks
in the description
Maybe rebrand as “3-minute Thursdays”? 🤷♂️😂 Maybe even 5-minute Fridays, as someone else mentioned 5 minutes being good.
Physical separation of speakers is a good point as well. You can still get that center imaging with many different distances, but dialing in individual instruments/voices takes some tinkering with spacing.
What about height imaging?
…but Jay….you talked for 60 sec. before you even started the stop watch! 😂😂😂 What about THAT?🤓
According to my observation you did a FIVE-Minute Tuesday! No worries.
Looking forward to your review of those crazy-design, but perfect-color Tekton Monitors! 👍🏼
It’s all about phase
Point
Having a center image is prety easy and the work is not ended there. In order to achieve a perfect stereo image, the speakers must disappear, meaning all the aound comes from behind the speakers, creating a deep sounstage and a true holographic experience
so bookshelf speakers don't need to be at ear level?
It's correct what is said but main thing for imaging is speakers placement and toe in. You need to play with that in order to get the best result.
I mentioned toe-in but from my experience, other things are more important. Sure, toe-in can help focus the imaging sweet spot BUT no toe-in is going to help if you have messed up phase
Ha! Who’s the rock n roll star singing in the vid? lol. It took me a while of moving my Pendragons around, removing my audio rack from between them, and now they’re giving me a rock solid center image and a beautiful soundstage. Great vid, Jay. Thanks! 🎶🙂🔊✨
Jay, I have a possibly stupid question, so forgive me. If sound reflections from the front and side walls cause so many issues, why not build a 3 sided backstop behind each speaker, using sound absorbing and diffusing materials, so that the effect of dressing the room is more immediate? Does that make sense? Yes, you may need to dress the ceiling and the walls and corners behind the listening position, but front wall (i.e. the television or gear stand) would not play a part in the sound reflection? I honestly have never seen this possible solution mentioned, even as a bad idea, in any videos or articles regarding room dressing. This question isn't just for Jay... if any of you super smart folks can explain why it would not work, I am very interested in hearing why. Thanks!
That was way over 2 minutes. ;) but good video. By the was I was in your store in Markham once.
From experience by careful with equal distances for speakers. Without panels never keep the speaker at the same distance from Rear, Sidewall and Floor.
I have perfect center image, but no soundstage and no precise location of other elements in the stereo image... Maybe you'll do a video on this matter. Great video, as always! 👍
From my very limited understanding of acoustics.. what may be happening is that you have the stereo image in a good spot, but if you aren't handling reflections properly then your ear is getting sounds at slight delays. Those miniscule delays are decoded by your brain and used for sound localisation.. as in... where are those footsteps coming from? 🤐
You may not think you're audibly aware of any delay of information arrival, but your brain is sensitive to it and may have trouble telling you where a sound is located in space if it's signal is telling it that it's... in more than one point in space.
@@erics.4113 The problem, in my case, is that I have a proper acoustically treated listening room. I've tried toe in, no toe in, played with distances, positions... No result. Perhaps the issue is represented by the speakers, which are professional studio monitors, made for near field listening, while I'm using them for, let's say, mid field listening. I don't know.
@@gg0297 well my gut says that studio monitors are more precise. Designed for near field to be aimed at a console or whatever seated position. So yah. Not really designed to fill a room or have wide off-axis soundstage.
But that's my intuition, nothing concrete to back that up but I'd definitely consider trying something known for off-axis performance and see what you get. I'm guessing it would improve.
@@erics.4113 Agree. I will buy passive speakers, more suited for Hi-Fi audition, for sure. :)
@@gg0297 better living through gear acquisition! At least when you buy enough wrong stuff, it makes the right purchases that much sweeter.
Sad but true
On that note, the metallica track sad but true is how I often judge mid range and bass. It's a strange thing that mix. But I tend to like speakers that capture the crunchy deep mid of the guitar in that track and don't like speakers that tend to put the guitar in the background. I guess it's becoming one of my test tracks without realizing I was doing so.
Great stuff! I am in the process of planning a media/record storage cabinet build to sit between my speakers. It will be a metal frame with wooden shelves. It would be cool to see a tips video on choosing/building a media cabinet.
Time for three minute Thursdays
I don’t think I even made 3 minute this time haha
STILL NO AXIOM SPEAKER REVIEW JAY!!!!!
Hey Jay, you're description of everything down the middle worries me a bit. I'd expect this to be mastering specific. Most of what I listen to has vocals down the middle and distinct instruments between left and right speakers depending on the mastering of the recording.
I'd say 90% of what I listen to is evenly spread across the soundstage which sometimes (dependent on recording) extends beyond and /or above my left and right speakers.
Wouldn't everything down the middle sound muddled?
when I say "everything down the middle" ... as with anything in audio, it relates to stuff that should be down in the middle
@@Jayiyagi Thanks for replying, but I'm sure there's a lot of people on here don't actually understand what 'down the middle' is. Keep 'em honest Jay. That's all I'm asking. 2 mins on soundstage next?
@@Sunshine_Superman theres no reason for me to keep it not honest. Cheers !
Get good off axis speakers to begin with, so no toe in or minimal toe in is required to get the right tonal balance while retaining fantastic center imaging. Ive seen too many people own very directional speakers that require crazy amounts of toe in and lose soundstage width in the process. Great horizontal off axis measuring speakers are the key to soundstaging and imaging, it reduces the compromises you have to make.
Here is an example I faced in my room and setup : i wanted a pin-sharp center imaging with my JBLs so I toed them in slowly and achieved that once they were directly facing my ears. What I lost was soundstage width and a very very narrow sweetspot. This wouldnt have occured if the JBL had excellent horizontal off axis from the get go. I have no problems with my diamond 12.2s, although they are not the best in horizontal off axis response they are way less directional than the hornloaded JBLs.
Buy speakers that require no toe in to achieve the most accurate tonality, half your problem will be solved.
And half your problem will be created as you lose the benefits of directivity. It’s all about picking your tradeoffs.
@@seanb3303 not really but ok.
1:30 That's not phase, that's polarity
On imaging: Marantz SCAD 30N===>Amazon Music/HEOS===>Schiit Freya+ NOS Tubes===> Bob Carver C-500 Power Amp (40+ Years Old w/Original Capacitors, 250wpc@8ohms)===>DynAudio Contour 20 Speakers on $20/45-year-old IKEA Speakers Stands (concrete base! 😀)..oh…and 10-gauge lamp cord for speaker wire.👍🏼
Track: 44.1kHz/24bit Billie Eilish- Billie Bossa Nova….Call me LUCKY! The Center-Imaging, Clarity, Detail, Tone, Bass and Breadth of Soundstage make me almost wet my pants. Maybe I should cover my TV? …NAH. 😁
No need to always cover your TV but if it’s and old TV with antenna Ears, then turn them off.. They don’t need to hear what your ears hear 🥴😂
If we must use our 2.0 for home theater, do you advise wall mounting the tv vs putting it on a furniture stand? Also I would really enjoy a video of room treatment strategy if in the pipeline.
I had my TV installed quite high, above speakers, like in public places, pubs and hospitals. But when parents and sisters gave me a bigger new smart TV (with RUclips etc.) for my 60th birthday, I decided to set it on a drawer, 8" higher than standard height TV cabinet. In limited room/space I have to compromise with real life. Sounds good enough for rock/pop/heavy rock, I don't listen to acoustic and classical music much.
Toe-in is a huge component of center fill, IMHO
This is a myth in speaker location and orientation
Too much toe in and you will lose soundstage width, and that is why good horizontal off axis speakers are the foundation to good imaging and soundstaging. Less compromises are needed.
@@-MarkWinston- true. My main focus is on the music itself, the creativity therein and the emotional impact, as well as the message it’s trying to convey
What about soundstage lol
2 minutes per channel, plus one for the sub! 😉
Missed the biggy. Pull them out from the wall.
yep. find the best distance for the best balance between soundstage and bass response. you'll have a nice clean image that way.
All you need is a bubble level and a good set of ears. The advice of same distance on the speakers is incorrect. Start with one speaker, pull it out from the wall till the bass doesnt sound distorted. Then take the other speaker and pull it out from the wall till the image in center. Even if the speakers are off my inchs, i have seen it off even at a foot difference. No two rooms will sound and play the same
Jay I sure hope those Tektons sound great because damn they fugly..
If you put a blanket over your tv then you will not be able to watch tv 📺 Oh and it will probably overheat and burn your house down 🔥
A high end DAC ($800 or more) is important for imaging. Cheap DACs make the instruments move all over the stage, and that is not realistic.
All the treatment looks nice, but the speakers are way too close to the front wall for the diffusion to even work. I doubt he is getting any quality imaging. Not to mention the lack of attention to sound-staging, which is after all the end goal.
Watch the latest video on my channel of the troubadour speakers and you will understand
The only way to get a perfect centre image from your stereo speakers is to use crosstalk cancellation.
I really don't care about the 2 minutes man, more tips more better. As long as it's under 30 minutes.
Your setup use too much diffuser, reduce the airiness
Nope…
How can you talk about wrong connected speakers and not talk about loss of bass.
Usie a laser level from Amazon instead of a tape measure. You’re welcome
Sit
Right
In
The
Middle! 😉
I'm waiting for a 24 minute "2 minute" video and it not being addressed at all.
Growing your hair out, finished basic training?
That Red Aerosmith album is the worst recording ever.
Truth
Tom Cochrane and Red Rider The big League that's an acid test that's on CD.
This, this isn't so... an 'image' by definition is a copy, a reflection of reality. Thus, it can never be 'perfect'. Yet, we pursue it nonetheless!