it's a bittersweet ending, but i don't think it's her worst ending; she makes a decision, saves the world, then finds a "ethical" way to deal with her new life - becoming sort of a living colony of memories and lives. illithid karlach feels very close to omeluum - mind flayers who's found ways to use their powers for good. i suspect part of it is not knowing who omeluum was before it experienced ceremorphosis while we know karlach and know that even immediately after ceremorphosis and especially 6 months later, but honestly she still feels like karlach. besides wotc and hasbro are clowns and i disregard their lore for mindflayers and substitute it with my 'karlach is in there as the dominant personality and is a happy squid' own
But for how long though? Tav themselves is already mentally losing after 6 months of being a mindflayer if you choose to be one. The narrator during the party will say you know these are your friends but they mean nothing. So it’s clear no matter how dominant you are in the beginning the inner Illithid will win out at some point.
That’s not how it works. The host is outright killed. The illithid is a separate life form that keeps some of the host memories. Karlach is dead and has 0 awareness after the transformation. Even the word ‘transformation’ is disingenuous. It’s a consumption, with memories being absorbed. Illithids are basically body snatchers. Host is dead. Gone.
Withers says it's her, and embraces the fact that illithids can actually be continuations of the person. It's new information, but verified by someone very reliable who'd know.
I mean if she goes to the hells with Wyll (or Tav?) she says shes on a lead to fix it. You don't actually do it in-game unfortunately but its implied she can and will.
@@unionblue21 Well except that the true heir of the Githyanki is gone. And a person that actually cares about his peoples. It is like you take a choice between sacrificing your best friend or leeting North Korea annexing South Korea. So yeah it is more of a greater good thing. Sure you yourself probably won't be affected but you have made a dark chapter in Githyanki history.
Just as twisna re not the same person, a mindflyer isn't the same person that gave birth to it, but I still could love both of them. There's way too much love in me to give and my tolerance for monster if pretty damn high.
Agreed. Balduran was good too, until he became what he became. Lying manipulator who outright tells you you're his puppet if you press him long enough. From the hero after the who city was named, to the scheming manipulator named Emperor. He lied to us about Orpheus, he lied to us about the dutchess and he killed Ansur. Illithids have no souls, they may have memories of the person but they think on the completely different plane to us. They may mimic emotions but thats nothing more than manipulation. Orpheus says so himself that he is slipping, and asks Laezel to kill him for that reason. So that he doesn'tloose himself. The same way even if it is the same karlach for now, eventually she will lose what made her who she was as a person and she'll become a true illithid. Same as balduran did. Same as Orpheus would if he didn't die. Honestly this one is the worst ending for her. To live just to become a monster and not even know it.
@@SonicMegaKingFor now. Even if this is still Karlach, eventually she'll become just another "Emperor". Same as Balduran did. Your knowledge is faulty, go read up on the lore.
@@SeventhheavenDKit isn’t Karlach anymore though. Mind Flayers are an entirely new organism with no soul, only the personality and memories of its original host. It’s pretty similar to true vampirism in Astarion’s Ascension ending, the person they were before effectively dies.
@@thesilliestgoose5990 tbh mindflayers do have souls, but upon death mindflayer's soul and consciousness is absorbed into their colony's elderbrain, so it's unreachable by most gods and they have no afterlife. and even rogue mindflayer's thoughts and emotions are so alien to the usual denizens of forgotten realms, gods there don't even register their souls when they pass into afterlife. That said, midflayer's soul is the soul of a tadpole that ate host's brain, not that of the original host
Tav does have a soul after becoming a mindflayer , if you go on durge path and decide to kill yourself after defeating netherbrain your soul ends up in underworld where you get to meet withers , he is quite surprised by this as well. @QueerAndHere
They have souls, not "apostolic " ones, according to Withers. Mind flayers have their own pantheon and it's from another dimension. So their souls can't be used by the gods we know. This is why Whiters and the other gods say they don't have souls. Besides that, Karlach soul has been replaced by an illithid one. Yes. So basically the original karlach is dead.
Oh this breaks my heart 💔 I had heard that this was an option and immediately felt like I’d never be able to do it. Having now seen it, I can confirm that’s still the case. Karlach is all about living her life on her own terms, making every moment count, and feeling everything so deeply. Illithid Karlach flies in the face of all of that. I’d send my tav/durge in to transform a thousand times before doing this to her.
@@SeventhheavenDKShe sacrifice herself to be the mind flayer and simply cannot feel much emotion anymore. Also sad that there are no further content for Karlach as there will be no more DLC. Was hoping that the adventure in Avernus with Karlach would be include.
@@SeventhheavenDKthat honestly isn’t her anymore. It’s pretty clear lorewise that mindflayers aren’t the people they’re born from they just absorb the memories of their host. It may act like her but eventually it will lose that persona over time. This is backed up with both Karlach’s and Tav’s mindflayer ending. It clearly tells the player that mentally both are losing bits of themselves over time.
Karlach as the brain-eating companion and lover is always a good sight. Despite the way she is used for other people, at least she won't go back to hell. She is just evolved pass normal ways.
I mean... that would be nice. If it were true. Unfortunately, all official lore points to the much more likely event that Karlach was destroyed when she transformed. What you're interacting with is the evolved form of the tadpole that was living in her brain. The tadpole was shaped by her memories, her ideals, and her feelings, so it does SEEM like her. At least for now.
@@dracawynAll the official lore is basically pointless in this game's version of mindflayers. Normally mindflayers aren't supposed to have the original host's memories at all, or only very minor amounts of memories, yet pretty much every mindflayer you can become in this game (you, orpheus, karlach) is basically the exact you , you were before, probably with your same exact brain and all, just the shell being different. The game itself doesn't seem to be able to make up it's mind about what a mindflayer transformation or being illithid even means, sometimes it seems like it's basically just a shapeshift and sometimes it actually influences your thinking patterns.
This Strangely reminds me of the fallout 3 ending where one companion solves the tragic issue cos hes immune to radiation. I dont know why it reminds me of that. But this seems almost beautiful. Id be honoured if karlach took me in my dying moments, to have all my suffering, good times and oh so many bad times, all my struggles just to live, being preserved forever like that, justified, felt, i would be truly seen for the first time and forever too
This might be too heretical, but hear me out: Karlach isnt actually transforms into a mindflayer when ceremorphosis is complete right? She dies, and the tad' grows into a humanoid with all memories and experience of our cutie tiefling. Is it just me, or that is closer to giving birth to a creature rather than reincarnation? On romance with Karlach, I wish to explain this to her before she transforms, and to go on as a parent of the mindflayer, cuz goin thru this as a continuation of Karlach romance feels weird to me.
That’s normally how it works, other comments have brought up that in a certain ending if tav becomes a mindflayer and commits suicide withers will encounter his soul and be surprised about its existence. Lots of debate of if this is actually their soul, or the soul of the mindflayer that withers got confused by since they don’t have souls. But they also apparently do have souls but they just work differently in such a way that the regular gods can’t sense them. With all the contradictions and lore it could really go either way.
"Babe would you still love me if I was a worm"
Tav:
nothing a disguise self spell cant fix
it's a bittersweet ending, but i don't think it's her worst ending; she makes a decision, saves the world, then finds a "ethical" way to deal with her new life - becoming sort of a living colony of memories and lives. illithid karlach feels very close to omeluum - mind flayers who's found ways to use their powers for good. i suspect part of it is not knowing who omeluum was before it experienced ceremorphosis while we know karlach and know that even immediately after ceremorphosis and especially 6 months later, but honestly she still feels like karlach. besides wotc and hasbro are clowns and i disregard their lore for mindflayers and substitute it with my 'karlach is in there as the dominant personality and is a happy squid' own
But she's dead tho
But for how long though? Tav themselves is already mentally losing after 6 months of being a mindflayer if you choose to be one. The narrator during the party will say you know these are your friends but they mean nothing. So it’s clear no matter how dominant you are in the beginning the inner Illithid will win out at some point.
That’s not how it works. The host is outright killed. The illithid is a separate life form that keeps some of the host memories. Karlach is dead and has 0 awareness after the transformation. Even the word ‘transformation’ is disingenuous. It’s a consumption, with memories being absorbed. Illithids are basically body snatchers. Host is dead. Gone.
Withers says it's her, and embraces the fact that illithids can actually be continuations of the person. It's new information, but verified by someone very reliable who'd know.
@@unionblue21stop ignoring withers commenting that its karlach
Karlach becomes less herself with every mind she consumes, even though they're willing... I hate that we never got to repair her engine properly.
I mean if she goes to the hells with Wyll (or Tav?) she says shes on a lead to fix it. You don't actually do it in-game unfortunately but its implied she can and will.
the old true polymorph should fix her right up
@@theoldkobold yet her mind would still not be her own completely. She's now a amalgamation of individuals and less and less herself
@@Rlc201 i guess ill follow her to hell :C
They way she quickly shot a look at you after you said she’d do it… it had the feeling of instant retreat but being too far in.
going to avernus and fight along side her is the best ending for me, the true til death do us part
The Avernus romance ending with karlach is way better
Fuck that, Orpheus can take the L
Honestly literally nothing bad happens if he does become an Illithid.
@@unionblue21 Well except that the true heir of the Githyanki is gone. And a person that actually cares about his peoples. It is like you take a choice between sacrificing your best friend or leeting North Korea annexing South Korea. So yeah it is more of a greater good thing. Sure you yourself probably won't be affected but you have made a dark chapter in Githyanki history.
@@bogustav nah leave lae'zel to do orpheus' stuff, it works out fine
@@bogustav yeah Lae’zel can take his place and from what’s shown with that ending, the war is going well for her people.
Choose what u want to believe but I choose to believe that ain’t Karlach anymore
Withers says it's Karlach. You believe falsely.
Just as twisna re not the same person, a mindflyer isn't the same person that gave birth to it, but I still could love both of them. There's way too much love in me to give and my tolerance for monster if pretty damn high.
Agreed. Balduran was good too, until he became what he became. Lying manipulator who outright tells you you're his puppet if you press him long enough. From the hero after the who city was named, to the scheming manipulator named Emperor. He lied to us about Orpheus, he lied to us about the dutchess and he killed Ansur. Illithids have no souls, they may have memories of the person but they think on the completely different plane to us. They may mimic emotions but thats nothing more than manipulation. Orpheus says so himself that he is slipping, and asks Laezel to kill him for that reason. So that he doesn'tloose himself. The same way even if it is the same karlach for now, eventually she will lose what made her who she was as a person and she'll become a true illithid. Same as balduran did. Same as Orpheus would if he didn't die. Honestly this one is the worst ending for her. To live just to become a monster and not even know it.
@@SonicMegaKingFor now. Even if this is still Karlach, eventually she'll become just another "Emperor". Same as Balduran did.
Your knowledge is faulty, go read up on the lore.
@@gilgameshchosenbalduran was an asshole before becoming illithid
Absolutely horrifying.
This feels worse than death.
In Karlach's situation maybe it's not worse. For any other character including your Tav or Durge, yes, very likely.
But Karlach seems very happy.
@@SeventhheavenDKit isn’t Karlach anymore though. Mind Flayers are an entirely new organism with no soul, only the personality and memories of its original host. It’s pretty similar to true vampirism in Astarion’s Ascension ending, the person they were before effectively dies.
@@thesilliestgoose5990 tbh mindflayers do have souls, but upon death mindflayer's soul and consciousness is absorbed into their colony's elderbrain, so it's unreachable by most gods and they have no afterlife. and even rogue mindflayer's thoughts and emotions are so alien to the usual denizens of forgotten realms, gods there don't even register their souls when they pass into afterlife.
That said, midflayer's soul is the soul of a tadpole that ate host's brain, not that of the original host
withers said it clearly - all illithids are soulless. karlach died upon taking in the tadpole :(
Actually, if tav becomes the mindflayer, withers says he senses something like a soul in you, so there’s a good chance it’s still Karlach
Or there's a good chance it's a soul of the *parasite that ate your brain*
Tav does have a soul after becoming a mindflayer , if you go on durge path and decide to kill yourself after defeating netherbrain your soul ends up in underworld where you get to meet withers , he is quite surprised by this as well. @QueerAndHere
Whithers is wrong.
They have souls, not "apostolic " ones, according to Withers. Mind flayers have their own pantheon and it's from another dimension. So their souls can't be used by the gods we know. This is why Whiters and the other gods say they don't have souls.
Besides that, Karlach soul has been replaced by an illithid one. Yes. So basically the original karlach is dead.
Oh this breaks my heart 💔 I had heard that this was an option and immediately felt like I’d never be able to do it. Having now seen it, I can confirm that’s still the case. Karlach is all about living her life on her own terms, making every moment count, and feeling everything so deeply. Illithid Karlach flies in the face of all of that. I’d send my tav/durge in to transform a thousand times before doing this to her.
why she gets to live now. without ever being insecure
The very definition of “Thanks, I hate it.”
I cry for Karlech.
Why? She seems very happy.
@@SeventhheavenDKShe sacrifice herself to be the mind flayer and simply cannot feel much emotion anymore.
Also sad that there are no further content for Karlach as there will be no more DLC. Was hoping that the adventure in Avernus with Karlach would be include.
@@SeventhheavenDKthat honestly isn’t her anymore. It’s pretty clear lorewise that mindflayers aren’t the people they’re born from they just absorb the memories of their host. It may act like her but eventually it will lose that persona over time. This is backed up with both Karlach’s and Tav’s mindflayer ending. It clearly tells the player that mentally both are losing bits of themselves over time.
Reliving and remembering every life from, birth to death, must be maddening at some vague critical mass. I couldn't imagine.
Karlach as the brain-eating companion and lover is always a good sight. Despite the way she is used for other people, at least she won't go back to hell. She is just evolved pass normal ways.
I mean... that would be nice. If it were true. Unfortunately, all official lore points to the much more likely event that Karlach was destroyed when she transformed. What you're interacting with is the evolved form of the tadpole that was living in her brain. The tadpole was shaped by her memories, her ideals, and her feelings, so it does SEEM like her. At least for now.
@@dracawynso then whats up with withers finding dirge tavs “something of a soul” in the fugue plane?
@@thefatherinthecave943mindflayers have souls but they’re different from normal ones in sense they go somewhere different than where most souls go.
Going back to hell is ultimately the best ending for her though, she goes with Wyll or you and finds a lead to fix her engine permanently.
@@dracawynAll the official lore is basically pointless in this game's version of mindflayers. Normally mindflayers aren't supposed to have the original host's memories at all, or only very minor amounts of memories, yet pretty much every mindflayer you can become in this game (you, orpheus, karlach) is basically the exact you , you were before, probably with your same exact brain and all, just the shell being different. The game itself doesn't seem to be able to make up it's mind about what a mindflayer transformation or being illithid even means, sometimes it seems like it's basically just a shapeshift and sometimes it actually influences your thinking patterns.
This Strangely reminds me of the fallout 3 ending where one companion solves the tragic issue cos hes immune to radiation. I dont know why it reminds me of that. But this seems almost beautiful. Id be honoured if karlach took me in my dying moments, to have all my suffering, good times and oh so many bad times, all my struggles just to live, being preserved forever like that, justified, felt, i would be truly seen for the first time and forever too
I just can't do this to my big buff babygirl bestie
This might be too heretical, but hear me out:
Karlach isnt actually transforms into a mindflayer when ceremorphosis is complete right? She dies, and the tad' grows into a humanoid with all memories and experience of our cutie tiefling. Is it just me, or that is closer to giving birth to a creature rather than reincarnation? On romance with Karlach, I wish to explain this to her before she transforms, and to go on as a parent of the mindflayer, cuz goin thru this as a continuation of Karlach romance feels weird to me.
That’s normally how it works, other comments have brought up that in a certain ending if tav becomes a mindflayer and commits suicide withers will encounter his soul and be surprised about its existence. Lots of debate of if this is actually their soul, or the soul of the mindflayer that withers got confused by since they don’t have souls. But they also apparently do have souls but they just work differently in such a way that the regular gods can’t sense them. With all the contradictions and lore it could really go either way.
I like this ending you save Orpheus, Karlach lives, you don’t have to become a mind flayers
This game is weird.
Disgusting yall would even do that
IKR the good ending is for you or orpheus to destroy the brain, then die. No mind flayers left is the only good ending
i wonder if eating evil people and getting their memories makes the mindflayer evil. So the approach of just eating bad guys is a trap
interesting point
the companions are true homies 🥹 they’re all so happy she gets more time
Seeing how happy she is makes me feel bad for not letting her become a mind flayer in this play through 🤣