***** It would have to be an 8/8 or something for 4 mana. Because if you lose the joust, you basically lose the game. If you win, however, you still don't get *that* much value. It's the same as a turn 4 Mountain Giant in Handlock.
***** ~50% of the time, you get a 2 mana profit. The other ~50% of the time, you lose 4 mana. A 3 mana value gain/loss would be pretty interesting, I think, and would make for a bit of chaotic low-rank and arena play.
One thing worth mentioning about the joust is that it's a joust between the top two minions left in each players deck. So if one was played mid-late game, the percentages would be much different for certain decks and you would have a good idea what minions you had left to face each other in the joust and what's been played and in your hand. I can specifically think of late game handlock. If you got unlucky draws and knew you had only molten giant left in your deck, you could be sure you'd win *everytime. *disclaimer: everytime except when playing against handlock
Joust cards should be DECENT when their effect doesn't go off and STRONG if their effect does go off. That would make them definitely drive the control format a bit more.
At least, i don't have to spend dust crafting new cards and can use the dust to craft the legendaries i planned to craft before the expansion...basiclly just increases the fun of arena and lets me go on with my crafting-plan
Sonic Shoe My guess would be that they have play tested these cards a fair bit.. from what I've seen, most, if not all the cards are pretty safe design wise (i.e. there's no dr.boom type cards i.e. nothing blatantly op). My guess is that they are being more conservative with BRM & TGT after Nax & GVG. Since Nax & GVG both introduced loads of pretty powerful cards.. and those cards dominated the meta after their release (remember when everyone ran an undertaker deck? Or a mech mage deck?). It makes sense to curtail the power creep.. to play conservatively.. but it does mean that most of these cards look rather.. tepid...
byter in a recent interview the lead developer said if they're not making cards that scare them (with how good they are) they're doing something wrong. I would have to say so far it seems they're doing something wrong then. I just wish this expansion in particular was the one that had some of the more broken cards as they're trying so hard to push a more controlling slow minion based meta which already seriously struggles to begin with. All the broken and really good shit in gvg favored fast tempo based decks. Brm mostly favored fast combo decks and midrange with emperor thaurissan and grim patron warrior. This was supposed to be controls time to shine and these cards so far just seriously aren't cutting it.
byter in a recent interview the lead developer said if they're not making cards that scare them (with how good they are) they're doing something wrong. I would have to say so far it seems they're doing something wrong then. I just wish this expansion in particular was the one that had some of the more broken cards as they're trying so hard to push a more controlling slow minion based meta which already seriously struggles to begin with. All the broken and really good shit in gvg favored fast tempo based decks. Brm mostly favored fast combo decks and midrange with emperor thaurissan and grim patron warrior. This was supposed to be controls time to shine and these cards so far just seriously aren't cutting it.
***** Uhm, overpriced, bad cards stay overpriced, bad cards. Putting them in your deck, will do anything but help you, if that is what you tried to say.
RunderKeks28 New decks will try to use as many new cards as possible. So let's say people make decks entirely comprised of TGT cards. All of the cards do something cool but cost a lot of mana, thus you have the chance to win more jousts, in theory.
***** I think people are looking for cards to create a new meta. The way you describe it hardly sounds as something that would stand the test of time. I like how Blizzard tries to stimulate control-decks but this kind of mechanic forces control-decks to remove every low-cost minion if they want to revolve their deck around jousting. And even then, you'd basically be building a deck that relies entirely on rng.
Actually, i wonder how broken (if broken) would it be if you changed the Armored Warhorse text to: Battlecry: Reveal a minion in each deck. If your costs LESS, gain charge.
Oldwiseman Wiseoldman Actually, No. When does 60% = 40% or vice versa the case where you happen to be correct would be a 50-50. Also it would go straight into face hunter.
Oldwiseman Wiseoldman No, because there's an important distinction. The card would then work much better in faster decks, where it would naturally belong.
Oldwiseman Wiseoldman thats actually completely different. original text says MORE. With the LESS text, Armored Warhorse would be so broken because every hunter would use it and it would have charge like 90% of the time
Gadgetzan Jouster is probably the only joust card I'm reasonably excited about. Seeing a random minion in the opponent's deck turn 1 is worth it even if I end up with a 1/2. Almost all agro decks will be easily identifiable based on that one minion.
Nuinwing If you actually think about it, he could just be just so heavy that no other mount could move him, so even through he's not fast, you simply cannot knock him down from his mount >:P
LordDragox412 I watched a video where this guy was played.Even though he's the best jouster overall, he apparently didn't enter the joust purposefully and was instead, looking for the food eating competition.
Nuinwing If that's not the happiest turtle/tortoise I've ever seen. Look at him, he is hyped to be here! Just wants to meet everybody hang out, and show off his new hat!
It's important that it compares minions. So if you run a paladin deck with pure weapons and spells (like the 2 drop that heals and gives attack) for early control. You might get really good joust odds. Same with druid, running wrath, claw, power of the wild etc.
One thing about the Joust mechanic: I feel like the joust mechanics are supposed to be sort of a group of tech cards; a "tech set". They punish aggro decks but don't do anything against control. I think the idea is to facilitate a fluctuating meta. Say for example control decks get super popular when TGT drops. As Trump has said before, if the average deck gets really slow then the fast decks will reign supreme, so if the meta gets really slow then people will start running face decks to counter it. After a while there will be an aggro-dominated meta once everyone catches on to that idea, an that's when the Joust cards shine. For a short while the Jousts will be consistent because the average deck will be fast. Once the Joust counterdecks get popular people will need to run Control to counter them, and then Aggro will cycle back in. I think the Joust cards are a lot better when seen as tech cards or a "tech deck" that is chosen based on the meta, rather than trying to fit them into existing control decks.
Akuuntus Joust is good in Control ✓ Joust is good against Aggro ✓ Control is bad against Aggro *✘* Midrange is good against Aggro ✓ Joust is good against Aggro ✓ Joust is bad in Midrange *✘* What the fuck Blizz.
Rhyme Bito well with Joust, Control will not be bad against aggro any more (atleast that's what Blizzard wants) and Joust will always be good against aggro, because every (good) Joust deck will be more top heavy in manna curve.
therelaxedone That's the problem though. Joust is a balancing mechanic for Control, but Control doesn't need balancing. It needs buffing, "unfairness" as Trump likes to say. It's not good enough to play unless the meta is heavily populated by Aggro decks, in which case you would not want to play Control in the first place.
Rhyme Bito If the meta is heavily populated by Aggro decks, some people have 1 and only 1 plebian Control Deck to play rank20 ladder with. That's where these new tech cards will come into play.
It'd be a shame if this expansion didn't include a new version of zombie chow named "zombie chjoust". I can almost hear his attacking sound... "DAAAAaaaAaAaaaah"
GunvorPlays RNG isnt that bad. sure you often feel like its unfair that you lose just because of bad luck but this is a card game and they always require luck. the more random things happen in this game, the more variety they show. so much RNG also makes interresting games that are different from the games you recently had. low RNG would get boring fast. the same goes for OP cards. if there are none it would be more boring because everything would be predictable if there would be no game-changers.
One thing about jousting cards...the effect (even if you lose the joust) is like a strange twisted version of tracking...you could see a minion of the enemy's deck (offcourse he could also see one of yours) so you might plan better wichich card you want to use by now and which you want to use if this minion comes. I know it's a little effect because the good players mostly know which cards might come.
I really think that if you lost the Joust, you shoud still have an effect for some card. The Tuskarr Jouster should heal something like 3 health to your hero if you loose, 7 if you win. Loosing a jouster make that the card is really under the non-jouster card with the same cost.
At first I thought from the example that was given that the minion with Joust gained the text from the card that was shown. Tirion has the taunt and shield effect and the minion on board gained the same effect. Could give an extra spin on themed decks if this was the new mechanic...
I think the Armored Warhorse pretty much describes TGT as an expansion so far. Its interesting and unusual, but it just doesn't fit in anywhere so its probably not good enough to play.
I feels like the developers are so afraid to print another Boom or Patron. Cards nobody expected to be so dominating, but ended up shifting the entire game. So instead they give us this weak sauce.
silvsilvsilv I don't think this cards are as weak as they seem. For example many people thought that healbot was a bad card when it was revealed, saying it would not see any play. I think we should wait to see them in action rather than judge them right away.
silvsilvsilv I agree completely. They need to play test these better or release better cards and be more willing/faster to fix broken cards that are released. It seems like they are just pussy-footing around making good cards. This entire expansion has been so underwhelming. Often times it's only a matter of changing one number on the card, like Trump said.
silvsilvsilv i would feel ok if they released underpowered cards and later buffed them if they saw they were too bad, sadly blizzard pretty much doesnt balance cards after they are realeased so i dont see any of theese cards getting buffed :c
Paddzr Not really. The joust cards are, apart from the turtle, all pretty overpriced. So, they're probably going to take your whole turn or prevent you from playing anything in BGH range. That means that all you find out from seeing their BGH is that: 1: They run a BGH. But, so does everyone else. 2: Their BGH currently isn't in their hand. While this seems like a big deal it really isn't. You've already spent your mana on the overpriced joust card so your turn is over and they could draw that BGH right then. Realistically you just go straight back into the same state of limbo that your were in before you saw their BGH because you still don't know if its in their hand now.
When I first learned of joust, I didn't think of Magic's Clash; I thought of Star Wars' Destiny draws. Then I remembered how that system didn't accomplish its goal of discouraging stuffing decks with loads of rare cards. The rare cards in that game were so strong that decks filled with them didn't mind getting lower Destiny draws than players running more common (and much weaker) cards. Similarly, I'm uncertain if joust will have the intended (?) effect of encouraging slower decks. Joust cards will have to pack much more enticing bonuses than what's been shown so far.
(about the jousting mechanic) Given that in slow decks you run few low-cost cards and you mulligan specifically for them, wouldn't be the percentages even highter?
I kind of want to try this stuff in my ramp druid. My early game is 2 Power of the Wild, 2 Wrath, so the 5/6 divine shield/taunt could be a decent extra taunter. Probably not. But it's fun to think about.
Actually control orriented decks will have their low mana cards in their hand at the beginning (well they will try to) and then the big cards will remain in the decks giving the advatage needed against agrro decks.
Probably the greater value of gadgetzan jouster is that, on turn 1, you'll can see a minion in opponent deck and from that guessing what type of deck you're facing and play consequently. So, either you win or lose the joust, you still have gained information on the opponent deck on turn 1
There is a somewhat reliable way to win joust and it is to put fewer creatures in your deck. This makes it more likely to reveal the higher cost minion in your deck.
I realized an important factor that trump may not have considered for jousting. If you mulligan for/keep cards which are lower cost in your opening hand then you have less low cost cards remaining in your deck. This raises the probability of you winning a joust significantly.
The Gadgetzan Jouster could maybe find use in a Malygos Rogue deck that really only run Malygos, Gadgetzan, the emporor and Azure and maybe doomsayer/wild pyromancer. Could the later and use the Jouster for early control maybe? There would be a very good chance not to draw a low cost minion... But it does seem of limited use really.
I think tuskarr jouster is pretty good, because if youre looking for the healing youll usually get it vs the heavy agression decks, and vs a control matchup the stats are much better than a usually useless healbot that often is just played as an expensive small body
Idea for a jousting deck... a very very spell heavy deck with a few high cost legendaries Malygos + tons of removal spells from mage or shaman, maybe? unstable portal can add an early-ish game minion without adding a cheap minion. Ancestral call for a similar logic. The only problem is that if you have too many jousters and not enough high cost minions, one of your other jousters will be called forth rather than a high cost guy.
With regards to jousting, I'm not sure that you can completely rule out the fact that you usually mulligan for early game minions in most decks. And some decks mulligan really hard for their early game. Though I'm not sure that's enough to push most jousters into the playable range. (I'm also a bit curious as to whether or not going first or second is better for jousting, I'm really unsure how to model that though . . . .)
I think the higher cost jousting minions will be more effective against rush decks as most of the lower cost cards were already in play, which increases your chances of comeback
Did you take into account the mulligan? If you play a control deck, as paladin, you may always mulligan to get your low-cost minion as shielded minibot or zombie chow. Does it increases the chance to win the joust in late game ? You may say that your opponent will also mulligan for low mana cards but if he plays aggro, he won't mulligan to get the cheapest cards, but only try to play on curve
Problems with those larger jousters is that they are missing in the deck while you are jousting, further worsening your chances against face decks... Sounds like whole lot of fun and RNG'ing, but it feels like it's gonna be a bit like the dragon-craze with BRM. Only card so far that's going to really change the meta is Demonfuse. Saving up the dust so I can craft two of those when TGT hits live.
im not sure if you took into consideration that the joust is only with minions. thus what if you had a control deck with mainly spells to control the early game, and only have high cost minions to help win your jousts more often? wouldnt they become more valuable? or are you saying that its almost impossible to create a deck that focuses on using spells as early control?
I've noticed one flaw with trumps maths on the joust. He's calculating a straight 30 card deck against another 30 card deck. For the low cost jousters (like gadgezet) that's fine. But for the bigger cards, if it's going into a mid/late game deck, not so much. Because by that point you should have played most of your early game minions, and your opponent will still have a number of low cost cards if they're a face deck. He's still right in that it's not going to be a sure fire win, but it is worth considering what will have already been played by that point.
JaLoveast1k Inc. If you Joust and both minions have the same mana cost you don't get the effect. Because of that even if you and your opponent had decks with the exact same mana curve you would still lose the Joust more than half of the time.
Think the Joust mechanic could possibly work well in a super spell heavy deck. If you used a deck that mostly had spells to control the early game, rather than minions, you could try and get away with not putting any minion in your deck that costs like...4 or less. Then your chances of winning jousts would be a little more reliable. For some reason, I'm thinking freeze mage would be kind of good for it. Maybe get rid of some of the extraneous card draw for joust minions to just smash face with...potentially give your deck another win condition, on top of the usual "Antonidas = infinite fireball" bullshit condition.
***** Tree of Life control druid? Or Warlock with Twisting Nether for a turn 7 reset. Any of the weapon-based classes either? Warrior has bash now plus 2, 3, and 4 mana weapons. Add Shield Block and Shield Maidens for health recovery.
For the Tuskarr joust card, he's actually a bit better than that. A downside to the joust cards is that even in heavy control, you're going to want some low cost minions to play. However, you'll have played yours prior to turn 5, so the likelihood for you to get a low cost minion is a little lower than say the gadgetzan one.
i have an idea, how about a 1-2 minion that reveals your opponent`s hand when in stealth (it doesn't have stealth, you have to give him that effect) maybe master of disguise will get some play?
Can someone throw me a link to a site with a good Handlock deck? I've got both giants, argus and the 2mana give taunt. And more, but i can't really get far in the rankings before i get shrekt by hunter. Any things that could help me?
Aren't the chances of winning the joust improving when you're getting into mid or late game against aggro or zoo? As a mid-range or control deck part of the lower cost cards or out of your deck by that time, so that would mean that higher cost jousting minions have a higher chance of winning the joust against beforementioned types of decks...
A 2 mana 0/2 Minion with "Stealth+At the end of your turn you start a joust if you win deal 3 randomly split among all the enemies. If you lose 3 damage a randomly splitted among friendly characters expect this minion." What do you think guys? IMO it would be interesting to see a kinda permanent and kinda removal card.
you can cheat jousting with unstable portal, animal companion, muster, mirror entity, minions that come to play at cheaper costs (giants, voidcaller, dragon consort, innervate). It's not that hard to tech a deck to improves jousting odds.
Because they summon low cost minions without having a low cost minion in your deck to lower your odds of winning a joust. I feel like you're too dumb to get it so I'll add this extra paragraph to try and explain this to you as thoroughly as possible. The joust mechanic works based on minions so having low cost spells in your deck won't effect your jousting odds. You can use this to your advantage by controlling the board with low cost spells (portal and animal companion are low cost spells that summon minions) and then throwing high cost minions in your deck. This will improve your odds of winning the jousts and give you good late game minions. Again, just to clarify, having all late game minions will just make you lose the early game so the idea is to control the early game with spells. I don't think it's going to be worth it, but it's a very, very obvious strategy for this mechanic. It makes perfect sense... Lrn2common sense. =D
if you find a way to draw cards in control warrior other than acolyte. you could remove cruel taskmaster which gets worse without acolytes. then the only creatures below 5 mana would be armorsmith and maybe bgh.
Master Jouster trades well with like every 5 cost and 4 cost, with or without the divine shield and taunt. Also divine shields good against control not aggro, its much easier for a Facehunter to ping off a shield than it is for a Handlock say.
What do you think would happen if you would win 50/50 if the costs are tied? If they release a bunch of joust cards with really good effects, I think it's probably worth playing them anyway, since you would be playing multiple of them. Then if you lose one joust, it might not matter as much because the next joust you win will make up for it! Maybe.
I think it's worth considering that these joust cards costing between 4-6 mana giving you and the other player time to dump their low cost minions onto the field and increasing your chances for a joust win is pretty important, right?
I'm not gonna use the jouster because with my luck, even if I make a holly wrath/jouster paladin with only the highest mana cost card, blizzard is gonna find a way to infiltrate a wisp into my deck that is gonna make me loose the joust against a The Meek Shall Inherit deck.
A better idea for The Skeleton Knight, "Deathrattle: Reveal a minion in your deck, if it costs more, revive this minion" It would be much better, not only giving that slightly unreliable unfairness that legendary cards should have, but also makes sense considering he is a risen skeleton. Don't really know if there is any lore tied to him, but it would atleast be a pretty cool card, and not crap like it is now.
I just had an idea, what if the joust mechanic was instead based off of how many cards you have played in the current game? It would still favour slow decks AND it is predictable.
I think you have to take in some consideration that when playing a joust card, it can either better or worsen your odds. Play the 1 mana joust, and that is a lesser chance of getting a low cost card. Play a higher cost joust card, and have a not as good chance of drawing a high cost card, because that is one of the higher cards.
Tuskarr Jouster actually looks like it could be a really good card in control decks. It might end of replacing heal bot which is often an auto include in many paladin decks. 1 less heal for 2/2 of stats is worth even if it wins joust 65-70% of the time.
I'd like to see The Skeleton Knight be bumped up to a 7/7 for 6 with the text: "Deathrattle: Reveal a minion in each deck. If yours cost more, return this to your hand. If theirs cost more, place it in their hand.
I assume you took this into account with your math, but your mulligan, and the minions you play earlier in the game also increases your odds of winning jousts, as you're eliminating those minions from your deck. In effect, you can control the odds a bit by knowing your deck well, and being able to identify your opponent's archetype.
So one thing that I thought while watching, that I'm wondering about, is that in control decks playing these cards late game makes them way more effective right? Because you will have hopefully played most of your early game, and they will have less late, and I'm just wondering if that matters at all :p
I have 2 questions here 1- what happens when I get a tie in a joust ? 2- if I had 10 health and play a joust minion, then I got molten giant.. do I always win (because its 20 mana) , or do I always lose? (because its 0 mana because I have 10 health)???
UnJustiC 1. You lose. 2. You win, since for ex. Molten giant is a card that costs 20 mana. The reduction happens when it's in your hero's hand, not while its jousting :)
I think there is a point Trump didn't mention, when you play vs aggressive deck you mulligan aggressively for your low drops so the chance of having them appear in the joust is smaller,I believe this skew the percentage in favor of you winning the joust. If I mulligan for zombie chow there is high statistical chance of getting it in my hand thus it has less statistical impact on jousts, so yeah I saw that analysis on Reddit but I think he didn't account for mulligans. edit: also about Master Jouster, I think you underestimate the effect of +1/+1 on sunwalker, the leap from 4/5 (sunwalker) to 5/6 (master jouster) is one of the most significant in the game, because now it can trade favorably with the various 5/5 (loatheb, thaurrisan, AoL, shieldmaiden) that slower decks play at around the same cost. Against aggro you should usually win the 'joust' and get a great taunt, against control even if you lose it challenges those aforementioned minions. I don't think it's a great card but it is better than what you might think in first glance.
+ Max Roderick I believe you are forgetting tracking: "take the top three cards from your deck and pick one", suggesting there is a preexisting order to the cards in your deck. Although maybe it just rolls for all three cards when you play tracking i'm really not sure.
You can somewhat compare Tuskarr Jouster to Loatheb. Now here me out. Sometimes you play Loatheb thinking "haha, I play it and annihilate my opponent's next turn" and then they just play a five drop or a six drop (if you were on the coin), but you are still happy to have a 5/5 body. So even if you don't win the Joust with your Tuskarr, you can still be happy to have the 5/5 body. I would play it in my midrangy deck, replace my Antique healbot and (possibly) Loatheb, depending on the meta.
Feels like trumps math is a bit too conservative, considering your mana curve will average higher by the time you play these joust cards, considering that you'll be mulliganing for your lower cost minions, and i think its safe to assume that a joust deck will run a few 8-9 mana legendaries.
The Skeleton Knight you know sucks when you could change it from "[Joust] return this to your hand" to "[Joust], place this back on the field" and it *still* wouldn't see play.
"I hate to be the one to put people down" as he smiles :)
I'd like to see a 4 mana 7/6 Joust that dies if you lose the Joust, or something similar
***** lol thats shit
***** That actually sounds worse than Anima Golem.
***** let's give some love to the face hunters Kappa
***** It would have to be an 8/8 or something for 4 mana. Because if you lose the joust, you basically lose the game. If you win, however, you still don't get *that* much value. It's the same as a turn 4 Mountain Giant in Handlock.
***** ~50% of the time, you get a 2 mana profit. The other ~50% of the time, you lose 4 mana. A 3 mana value gain/loss would be pretty interesting, I think, and would make for a bit of chaotic low-rank and arena play.
FINALLY CARDS THAT COUNTERS THOSE WISPS DECKS!
One thing worth mentioning about the joust is that it's a joust between the top two minions left in each players deck. So if one was played mid-late game, the percentages would be much different for certain decks and you would have a good idea what minions you had left to face each other in the joust and what's been played and in your hand.
I can specifically think of late game handlock. If you got unlucky draws and knew you had only molten giant left in your deck, you could be sure you'd win *everytime.
*disclaimer: everytime except when playing against handlock
Joust cards should be DECENT when their effect doesn't go off and STRONG if their effect does go off. That would make them definitely drive the control format a bit more.
I wonder if blizzard even bothers to theory craft or playtest their own cards.
At least, i don't have to spend dust crafting new cards and can use the dust to craft the legendaries i planned to craft before the expansion...basiclly just increases the fun of arena and lets me go on with my crafting-plan
Sonic Shoe His stats on the Joust percentages are really off.
Sonic Shoe
My guess would be that they have play tested these cards a fair bit.. from what I've seen, most, if not all the cards are pretty safe design wise (i.e. there's no dr.boom type cards i.e. nothing blatantly op).
My guess is that they are being more conservative with BRM & TGT after Nax & GVG. Since Nax & GVG both introduced loads of pretty powerful cards.. and those cards dominated the meta after their release (remember when everyone ran an undertaker deck? Or a mech mage deck?). It makes sense to curtail the power creep.. to play conservatively.. but it does mean that most of these cards look rather.. tepid...
byter in a recent interview the lead developer said if they're not making cards that scare them (with how good they are) they're doing something wrong. I would have to say so far it seems they're doing something wrong then. I just wish this expansion in particular was the one that had some of the more broken cards as they're trying so hard to push a more controlling slow minion based meta which already seriously struggles to begin with. All the broken and really good shit in gvg favored fast tempo based decks. Brm mostly favored fast combo decks and midrange with emperor thaurissan and grim patron warrior. This was supposed to be controls time to shine and these cards so far just seriously aren't cutting it.
byter in a recent interview the lead developer said if they're not making cards that scare them (with how good they are) they're doing something wrong. I would have to say so far it seems they're doing something wrong then. I just wish this expansion in particular was the one that had some of the more broken cards as they're trying so hard to push a more controlling slow minion based meta which already seriously struggles to begin with. All the broken and really good shit in gvg favored fast tempo based decks. Brm mostly favored fast combo decks and midrange with emperor thaurissan and grim patron warrior. This was supposed to be controls time to shine and these cards so far just seriously aren't cutting it.
The Jousts will work because all these new cards with way too much mana in order to get their nice new effects will balance out.
***** Uhm, overpriced, bad cards stay overpriced, bad cards. Putting them in your deck, will do anything but help you, if that is what you tried to say.
RunderKeks28 New decks will try to use as many new cards as possible. So let's say people make decks entirely comprised of TGT cards. All of the cards do something cool but cost a lot of mana, thus you have the chance to win more jousts, in theory.
***** Well people won't run all new minions for that long...
***** I think people are looking for cards to create a new meta. The way you describe it hardly sounds as something that would stand the test of time. I like how Blizzard tries to stimulate control-decks but this kind of mechanic forces control-decks to remove every low-cost minion if they want to revolve their deck around jousting. And even then, you'd basically be building a deck that relies entirely on rng.
Actually, i wonder how broken (if broken) would it be if you changed the Armored Warhorse text to: Battlecry: Reveal a minion in each deck. If your costs LESS, gain charge.
DeadlyMageCZ That's the exact same effect just different wording.
Oldwiseman Wiseoldman Actually, No. When does 60% = 40% or vice versa the case where you happen to be correct would be a 50-50. Also it would go straight into face hunter.
Oldwiseman Wiseoldman No, because there's an important distinction. The card would then work much better in faster decks, where it would naturally belong.
Oldwiseman Wiseoldman No
Oldwiseman Wiseoldman thats actually completely different. original text says MORE. With the LESS text, Armored Warhorse would be so broken because every hunter would use it and it would have charge like 90% of the time
Gadgetzan Jouster is probably the only joust card I'm reasonably excited about. Seeing a random minion in the opponent's deck turn 1 is worth it even if I end up with a 1/2. Almost all agro decks will be easily identifiable based on that one minion.
From the looks of it....a walrus on a turtle wins the jousting...interesting.
Nuinwing If you actually think about it, he could just be just so heavy that no other mount could move him, so even through he's not fast, you simply cannot knock him down from his mount >:P
LordDragox412 I watched a video where this guy was played.Even though he's the best jouster overall, he apparently didn't enter the joust purposefully and was instead, looking for the food eating competition.
Nuinwing unless the turle has hidden ninja powers! Gogo Ninja Turtles!
Nuinwing If that's not the happiest turtle/tortoise I've ever seen. Look at him, he is hyped to be here! Just wants to meet everybody hang out, and show off his new hat!
It's important that it compares minions. So if you run a paladin deck with pure weapons and spells (like the 2 drop that heals and gives attack) for early control. You might get really good joust odds. Same with druid, running wrath, claw, power of the wild etc.
12Rman21 *GASP* Malygos Shaman.... Your smallest minion could cost 5.
One thing about the Joust mechanic:
I feel like the joust mechanics are supposed to be sort of a group of tech cards; a "tech set". They punish aggro decks but don't do anything against control. I think the idea is to facilitate a fluctuating meta. Say for example control decks get super popular when TGT drops. As Trump has said before, if the average deck gets really slow then the fast decks will reign supreme, so if the meta gets really slow then people will start running face decks to counter it. After a while there will be an aggro-dominated meta once everyone catches on to that idea, an that's when the Joust cards shine. For a short while the Jousts will be consistent because the average deck will be fast. Once the Joust counterdecks get popular people will need to run Control to counter them, and then Aggro will cycle back in. I think the Joust cards are a lot better when seen as tech cards or a "tech deck" that is chosen based on the meta, rather than trying to fit them into existing control decks.
Akuuntus
Joust is good in Control ✓
Joust is good against Aggro ✓
Control is bad against Aggro *✘*
Midrange is good against Aggro ✓
Joust is good against Aggro ✓
Joust is bad in Midrange *✘*
What the fuck Blizz.
Rhyme Bito well with Joust, Control will not be bad against aggro any more (atleast that's what Blizzard wants) and Joust will always be good against aggro, because every (good) Joust deck will be more top heavy in manna curve.
therelaxedone That's the problem though. Joust is a balancing mechanic for Control, but Control doesn't need balancing. It needs buffing, "unfairness" as Trump likes to say. It's not good enough to play unless the meta is heavily populated by Aggro decks, in which case you would not want to play Control in the first place.
Rhyme Bito If the meta is heavily populated by Aggro decks, some people have 1 and only 1 plebian Control Deck to play rank20 ladder with.
That's where these new tech cards will come into play.
Longest comment i've ever not read :P
It'd be a shame if this expansion didn't include a new version of zombie chow named "zombie chjoust".
I can almost hear his attacking sound...
"DAAAAaaaAaAaaaah"
Your comment wasn't funny the first time I don't know why you felt like you had to post it twice making it even more lame the second time
frak chu I smiled
frak chu I thought it was really clever, maybe you just hate puns, but you don't need to shit one someone just because of something YOU dislike.
That was actually a misspelled comment that I deleted three times, but the youtube phone application isn't the most stable of things =/
I wonder how much more RNG you can stuff into this game before it explodes.
GunvorPlays 10 mana spell: toss a coin, the player who gets heads wins the game
joergio6 Totally unbalanced, needs to be 1 mana.
GunvorPlays eh, I think it makes it fun, which *is* Blizzard's focus for HS
Smokestacks Yeah, I think if done right, RNG is quite fun.
GunvorPlays RNG isnt that bad.
sure you often feel like its unfair that you lose just because of bad luck but this is a card game and they always require luck.
the more random things happen in this game, the more variety they show. so much RNG also makes interresting games that are different from the games you recently had. low RNG would get boring fast. the same goes for OP cards. if there are none it would be more boring because everything would be predictable if there would be no game-changers.
One thing about jousting cards...the effect (even if you lose the joust) is like a strange twisted version of tracking...you could see a minion of the enemy's deck (offcourse he could also see one of yours) so you might plan better wichich card you want to use by now and which you want to use if this minion comes. I know it's a little effect because the good players mostly know which cards might come.
Tuskarr Jouster is a 2 of in every Paladin deck just for that fuckin turtle.
HE'S SO HAPPY.
Aww, the tuskar jouster was so adorable!
I really think that if you lost the Joust, you shoud still have an effect for some card.
The Tuskarr Jouster should heal something like 3 health to your hero if you loose, 7 if you win.
Loosing a jouster make that the card is really under the non-jouster card with the same cost.
At first I thought from the example that was given that the minion with Joust gained the text from the card that was shown. Tirion has the taunt and shield effect and the minion on board gained the same effect. Could give an extra spin on themed decks if this was the new mechanic...
What if you use a card like Venture Co. Mercenary (All your minions cost 3 more)?
The possibilities!
That is of course if adventure co mercenary works with cards directly from your deck
It doesn't work like this buddy
I think the Armored Warhorse pretty much describes TGT as an expansion so far. Its interesting and unusual, but it just doesn't fit in anywhere so its probably not good enough to play.
I feels like the developers are so afraid to print another Boom or Patron. Cards nobody expected to be so dominating, but ended up shifting the entire game. So instead they give us this weak sauce.
silvsilvsilv I don't think this cards are as weak as they seem. For example many people thought that healbot was a bad card when it was revealed, saying it would not see any play. I think we should wait to see them in action rather than judge them right away.
silvsilvsilv I agree completely. They need to play test these better or release better cards and be more willing/faster to fix broken cards that are released. It seems like they are just pussy-footing around making good cards. This entire expansion has been so underwhelming.
Often times it's only a matter of changing one number on the card, like Trump said.
silvsilvsilv i would feel ok if they released underpowered cards and later buffed them if they saw they were too bad, sadly blizzard pretty much doesnt balance cards after they are realeased so i dont see any of theese cards getting buffed :c
Brolom Who thought Healbot was a bad card?
silvsilvsilv Didn't Trump say Dr. Boom was a bad card, too?
Brave Hunter looks like the main character from the movie Brave.
edisonmcq
wow
If you see their BGH in Joust, it really can matter and influence your play.
Paddzr Not really. The joust cards are, apart from the turtle, all pretty overpriced. So, they're probably going to take your whole turn or prevent you from playing anything in BGH range. That means that all you find out from seeing their BGH is that:
1: They run a BGH. But, so does everyone else.
2: Their BGH currently isn't in their hand. While this seems like a big deal it really isn't.
You've already spent your mana on the overpriced joust card so your turn is over and they could draw that BGH right then. Realistically you just go straight back into the same state of limbo that your were in before you saw their BGH because you still don't know if its in their hand now.
"The joust cards are, apart from the turtle, pretty overpriced. Yup. A 1 mana 1/2 is so expensive.
When I first learned of joust, I didn't think of Magic's Clash; I thought of Star Wars' Destiny draws. Then I remembered how that system didn't accomplish its goal of discouraging stuffing decks with loads of rare cards. The rare cards in that game were so strong that decks filled with them didn't mind getting lower Destiny draws than players running more common (and much weaker) cards.
Similarly, I'm uncertain if joust will have the intended (?) effect of encouraging slower decks. Joust cards will have to pack much more enticing bonuses than what's been shown so far.
I guess some cards cannot be 'joustified'.
HighLanderPony :}
HighLanderPony did you really joust say that -_-
Mason Brewer Joust like that.
.
Beastwolf1 *joust
(Yup.)
(about the jousting mechanic) Given that in slow decks you run few low-cost cards and you mulligan specifically for them, wouldn't be the percentages even highter?
I kind of want to try this stuff in my ramp druid. My early game is 2 Power of the Wild, 2 Wrath, so the 5/6 divine shield/taunt could be a decent extra taunter. Probably not. But it's fun to think about.
I really like the flexibility of these cards, it's like they adjust depending on the kind of deck your playing against :)
What happens if both revealed cards cost the same?
Nevery Flinglas Excellent question, you may want to watch this video to find out! ruclips.net/video/eVmGOSLQVRE/видео.html
Nevery Flinglas Google is a powerful tool that helps you not look like an idiot.
Nevery Flinglas You guys are being petty... The "jouster" loses the tie.
RadicalTundra Can you google yourself a better attitude then? because you look like a total idiot.
Nevery Flinglas Basically, since a tie isn't a win, the effect won't trigger... so it's essentially a loss.
I wonder if Skeleton Knight + Kel'thuzad works.
Actually control orriented decks will have their low mana cards in their hand at the beginning (well they will try to) and then the big cards will remain in the decks giving the advatage needed against agrro decks.
Probably the greater value of gadgetzan jouster is that, on turn 1, you'll can see a minion in opponent deck and from that guessing what type of deck you're facing and play consequently.
So, either you win or lose the joust, you still have gained information on the opponent deck on turn 1
There is a somewhat reliable way to win joust and it is to put fewer creatures in your deck. This makes it more likely to reveal the higher cost minion in your deck.
Tuskarr Jouster is so cute.
And the only jousting card worth anything...
I was gonna say that haha
Lol the turtle tho
Eric Chen
:D
So, Jousting is Clash, from MTG/
I realized an important factor that trump may not have considered for jousting. If you mulligan for/keep cards which are lower cost in your opening hand then you have less low cost cards remaining in your deck. This raises the probability of you winning a joust significantly.
The Gadgetzan Jouster could maybe find use in a Malygos Rogue deck that really only run Malygos, Gadgetzan, the emporor and Azure and maybe doomsayer/wild pyromancer. Could the later and use the Jouster for early control maybe? There would be a very good chance not to draw a low cost minion...
But it does seem of limited use really.
I think tuskarr jouster is pretty good, because if youre looking for the healing youll usually get it vs the heavy agression decks, and vs a control matchup the stats are much better than a usually useless healbot that often is just played as an expensive small body
You have to count in that you usually mulligan for the low cost cards, wich highers the percentage :)
Idea for a jousting deck... a very very spell heavy deck with a few high cost legendaries
Malygos + tons of removal spells from mage or shaman, maybe? unstable portal can add an early-ish game minion without adding a cheap minion. Ancestral call for a similar logic.
The only problem is that if you have too many jousters and not enough high cost minions, one of your other jousters will be called forth rather than a high cost guy.
With regards to jousting, I'm not sure that you can completely rule out the fact that you usually mulligan for early game minions in most decks. And some decks mulligan really hard for their early game. Though I'm not sure that's enough to push most jousters into the playable range. (I'm also a bit curious as to whether or not going first or second is better for jousting, I'm really unsure how to model that though . . . .)
Hype for Alexstraza's champion! Probably still no dragon aggro decks, but the 3 power charge trades could be amazing.
Seems like throwing a couple Molten Giants into your deck will push the percentage in your favor quite well.
I think the higher cost jousting minions will be more effective against rush decks as most of the lower cost cards were already in play, which increases your chances of comeback
Did you take into account the mulligan? If you play a control deck, as paladin, you may always mulligan to get your low-cost minion as shielded minibot or zombie chow. Does it increases the chance to win the joust in late game ?
You may say that your opponent will also mulligan for low mana cards but if he plays aggro, he won't mulligan to get the cheapest cards, but only try to play on curve
1st card 5:20
2nd 8:17
3rd 9:53
4th 11:28
5th 14:05
6th 15:10
Problems with those larger jousters is that they are missing in the deck while you are jousting, further worsening your chances against face decks... Sounds like whole lot of fun and RNG'ing, but it feels like it's gonna be a bit like the dragon-craze with BRM.
Only card so far that's going to really change the meta is Demonfuse. Saving up the dust so I can craft two of those when TGT hits live.
Tusskar Jouster's turtle is so cute, that you might consider to be runned in every paladin deck
"Spells are usually more teller." ...how? In what deck? Someone tell me please.
im not sure if you took into consideration that the joust is only with minions. thus what if you had a control deck with mainly spells to control the early game, and only have high cost minions to help win your jousts more often? wouldnt they become more valuable? or are you saying that its almost impossible to create a deck that focuses on using spells as early control?
I've noticed one flaw with trumps maths on the joust. He's calculating a straight 30 card deck against another 30 card deck. For the low cost jousters (like gadgezet) that's fine. But for the bigger cards, if it's going into a mid/late game deck, not so much. Because by that point you should have played most of your early game minions, and your opponent will still have a number of low cost cards if they're a face deck. He's still right in that it's not going to be a sure fire win, but it is worth considering what will have already been played by that point.
Joust draw should make you the winner still, or at least initiate a second joust, in my opinion.
Someone explain pls what it means - "you don't win ties". As a non english speaker i faced some troubles in understanding %)
JaLoveast1k Inc. If you Joust and both minions have the same mana cost you don't get the effect. Because of that even if you and your opponent had decks with the exact same mana curve you would still lose the Joust more than half of the time.
Alice O'Farrell oh, thank you, that makes sense.
What if you have one card left and it's a burrowing mine
Tuskarr Jouster seems really good, going to be one of the first cards I craft from the new set.
Think the Joust mechanic could possibly work well in a super spell heavy deck. If you used a deck that mostly had spells to control the early game, rather than minions, you could try and get away with not putting any minion in your deck that costs like...4 or less. Then your chances of winning jousts would be a little more reliable. For some reason, I'm thinking freeze mage would be kind of good for it. Maybe get rid of some of the extraneous card draw for joust minions to just smash face with...potentially give your deck another win condition, on top of the usual "Antonidas = infinite fireball" bullshit condition.
***** Tree of Life control druid? Or Warlock with Twisting Nether for a turn 7 reset. Any of the weapon-based classes either? Warrior has bash now plus 2, 3, and 4 mana weapons. Add Shield Block and Shield Maidens for health recovery.
For the Tuskarr joust card, he's actually a bit better than that. A downside to the joust cards is that even in heavy control, you're going to want some low cost minions to play. However, you'll have played yours prior to turn 5, so the likelihood for you to get a low cost minion is a little lower than say the gadgetzan one.
i have an idea, how about a 1-2 minion that reveals your opponent`s hand when in stealth (it doesn't have stealth, you have to give him that effect) maybe master of disguise will get some play?
Where i can find that picture that the background with the night elf on the nightsaber?
Can someone throw me a link to a site with a good Handlock deck? I've got both giants, argus and the 2mana give taunt. And more, but i can't really get far in the rankings before i get shrekt by hunter. Any things that could help me?
What if you play ancestral spirit on the skeleton knight? Would that make it decent?
1 Mana creature: John Xena: Joust: if you win you win the game, if you lose you flip a coin: Heads you win the game. Tails you flip again.
Aren't the chances of winning the joust improving when you're getting into mid or late game against aggro or zoo? As a mid-range or control deck part of the lower cost cards or out of your deck by that time, so that would mean that higher cost jousting minions have a higher chance of winning the joust against beforementioned types of decks...
It certainly seems like most of the TGT cards released so far have been on the underpowered side which is rather disappointing. Great review though.
Could you make a joust deck that relies on a lot of early removal spells and late high cost cards?
A 2 mana 0/2 Minion with "Stealth+At the end of your turn you start a joust if you win deal 3 randomly split among all the enemies. If you lose 3 damage a randomly splitted among friendly characters expect this minion." What do you think guys? IMO it would be interesting to see a kinda permanent and kinda removal card.
you can cheat jousting with unstable portal, animal companion, muster, mirror entity, minions that come to play at cheaper costs (giants, voidcaller, dragon consort, innervate). It's not that hard to tech a deck to improves jousting odds.
Thomas Watson He meant improve the odds of winning a Joust... Lrn2context.
Because they summon low cost minions without having a low cost minion in your deck to lower your odds of winning a joust.
I feel like you're too dumb to get it so I'll add this extra paragraph to try and explain this to you as thoroughly as possible.
The joust mechanic works based on minions so having low cost spells in your deck won't effect your jousting odds. You can use this to your advantage by controlling the board with low cost spells (portal and animal companion are low cost spells that summon minions) and then throwing high cost minions in your deck. This will improve your odds of winning the jousts and give you good late game minions. Again, just to clarify, having all late game minions will just make you lose the early game so the idea is to control the early game with spells. I don't think it's going to be worth it, but it's a very, very obvious strategy for this mechanic.
It makes perfect sense...
Lrn2common sense. =D
if you find a way to draw cards in control warrior other than acolyte. you could remove cruel taskmaster which gets worse without acolytes. then the only creatures below 5 mana would be armorsmith and maybe bgh.
Master Jouster trades well with like every 5 cost and 4 cost, with or without the divine shield and taunt. Also divine shields good against control not aggro, its much easier for a Facehunter to ping off a shield than it is for a Handlock say.
What do you think would happen if you would win 50/50 if the costs are tied?
If they release a bunch of joust cards with really good effects, I think it's probably worth playing them anyway, since you would be playing multiple of them. Then if you lose one joust, it might not matter as much because the next joust you win will make up for it! Maybe.
Did you take into account the fact that you will preferentially mulligan large cards and so small cards are less likely to be in your deck?
not sure about the joust effects. think i'll just stick to the standard board control stuff.
I think it's worth considering that these joust cards costing between 4-6 mana giving you and the other player time to dump their low cost minions onto the field and increasing your chances for a joust win is pretty important, right?
An early jousting could identify your oppenents deck, could that be a reason to play these cards?
Where does he find all these cards that were shared.
I'm not gonna use the jouster because with my luck, even if I make a holly wrath/jouster paladin with only the highest mana cost card, blizzard is gonna find a way to infiltrate a wisp into my deck that is gonna make me loose the joust against a The Meek Shall Inherit deck.
A better idea for The Skeleton Knight, "Deathrattle: Reveal a minion in your deck, if it costs more, revive this minion" It would be much better, not only giving that slightly unreliable unfairness that legendary cards should have, but also makes sense considering he is a risen skeleton. Don't really know if there is any lore tied to him, but it would atleast be a pretty cool card, and not crap like it is now.
I just had an idea, what if the joust mechanic was instead based off of how many cards you have played in the current game? It would still favour slow decks AND it is predictable.
5:22 skipp the trimp
You're not funny, go away.
Whoply Gobly someones mad
Markas Černiauskas why would anyone skip trump? kripparian actually says really unnecessary and boring crap at the start of his videos, unlike trump.
Ačiū :D
Whoply Gobly He's a little funny... or at least the person who came up with that joke
Man, they'd better fix that Nozdormu bug because that joust animation takes even longer than most secrets do to activate..
U didnt consider, that many low mana cards are already played or in hand when u play e.g. the 6 mana Jouster.
if you fatigued then what will happen for the joust?
What if we both get the same cost minions?
1:33 not just in terms of manacost lol
I think you have to take in some consideration that when playing a joust card, it can either better or worsen your odds. Play the 1 mana joust, and that is a lesser chance of getting a low cost card. Play a higher cost joust card, and have a not as good chance of drawing a high cost card, because that is one of the higher cards.
Tuskarr Jouster actually looks like it could be a really good card in control decks. It might end of replacing heal bot which is often an auto include in many paladin decks. 1 less heal for 2/2 of stats is worth even if it wins joust 65-70% of the time.
I'd like to see The Skeleton Knight be bumped up to a 7/7 for 6 with the text:
"Deathrattle: Reveal a minion in each deck. If yours cost more, return this to your hand. If theirs cost more, place it in their hand.
I assume you took this into account with your math, but your mulligan, and the minions you play earlier in the game also increases your odds of winning jousts, as you're eliminating those minions from your deck. In effect, you can control the odds a bit by knowing your deck well, and being able to identify your opponent's archetype.
12:09 Did he just say i almost want to run 2 healbots in my wet dream?? Lol
So one thing that I thought while watching, that I'm wondering about, is that in control decks playing these cards late game makes them way more effective right? Because you will have hopefully played most of your early game, and they will have less late, and I'm just wondering if that matters at all :p
I have 2 questions here
1- what happens when I get a tie in a joust ?
2- if I had 10 health and play a joust minion, then I got molten giant.. do I always win (because its 20 mana) , or do I always lose? (because its 0 mana because I have 10 health)???
UnJustiC 1. You lose. 2. You win, since for ex. Molten giant is a card that costs 20 mana. The reduction happens when it's in your hero's hand, not while its jousting :)
+CJ Mattias OK Thanks for explaining!
+CJ Mattias OK Thanks for explaining!
+CJ Mattias OK Thanks for explaining!
+CJ Mattias OK Thanks for explaining!
I think there is a point Trump didn't mention, when you play vs aggressive deck you mulligan aggressively for your low drops so the chance of having them appear in the joust is smaller,I believe this skew the percentage in favor of you winning the joust.
If I mulligan for zombie chow there is high statistical chance of getting it in my hand thus it has less statistical impact on jousts, so yeah I saw that analysis on Reddit but I think he didn't account for mulligans.
edit: also about Master Jouster, I think you underestimate the effect of +1/+1 on sunwalker, the leap from 4/5 (sunwalker) to 5/6 (master jouster) is one of the most significant in the game, because now it can trade favorably with the various 5/5 (loatheb, thaurrisan, AoL, shieldmaiden) that slower decks play at around the same cost. Against aggro you should usually win the 'joust' and get a great taunt, against control even if you lose it challenges those aforementioned minions.
I don't think it's a great card but it is better than what you might think in first glance.
But what if the manacosts are Even?
Joust, does it put the card back in the same spot in the deck????
+ Max Roderick
I believe you are forgetting tracking: "take the top three cards from your deck and pick one", suggesting there is a preexisting order to the cards in your deck. Although maybe it just rolls for all three cards when you play tracking i'm really not sure.
Joust should have been "Reveal a minion in each HAND", where you get to choose the minion to reveal. That would change everything.
what about a miracle rogue with gadgetzan and azure drakes, and jousting minions
what is you replace all your 2 drops with spell cards?
You can somewhat compare Tuskarr Jouster to Loatheb. Now here me out. Sometimes you play Loatheb thinking "haha, I play it and annihilate my opponent's next turn" and then they just play a five drop or a six drop (if you were on the coin), but you are still happy to have a 5/5 body.
So even if you don't win the Joust with your Tuskarr, you can still be happy to have the 5/5 body. I would play it in my midrangy deck, replace my Antique healbot and (possibly) Loatheb, depending on the meta.
Feels like trumps math is a bit too conservative, considering your mana curve will average higher by the time you play these joust cards, considering that you'll be mulliganing for your lower cost minions, and i think its safe to assume that a joust deck will run a few 8-9 mana legendaries.
The Skeleton Knight you know sucks when you could change it from "[Joust] return this to your hand" to "[Joust], place this back on the field" and it *still* wouldn't see play.