Exactly, the reduction in decay was the most noticeable improvement when deploying bass traps. Multiple subs and EQ are the most effective means to achieve a flat response. Both are important...
Im in the Uk and run dual SVS subwoofers with Monitor Audio Towers. I have 16" square columns filled with Rockwool for Bass absorption in the corners (floor to ceiling) and use 4" for panels at 1st and 2nd reflection points and clouds. Its one of the best upgrades Ive done in terms of having a big impact on Music listening. I bought a few panels at first then made the rest myself which was very easy. Highly recommend doing it to everyone.
@@BoredSilly666 well share your room measurements. I’m sure it doesn’t require dual SVS subs and Monitor Audio Towers. What size are the woofer drivers. Probably at least 12. Yes? Already went over this pertaining to another RUclips Thomas. He admitted he likes big speakers and probably did indeed get too big sizes for the room he has so he put in bass traps. Like I said before it seems counterproductive.
@@f430ferrari5 You do realise the point in doing this is improved sound right? Your talking like ive just chucked this all this in a room and am now trying to combat the overkill. dual subs improved my frequency response as does the traps. Combats comb filtering and reverb. Youve made blind assumptions and seem like one of these folk that will argue the toss just for the sake of it. I cant be bothered, find someone else. I have a 7.2.4 set up . Im sure youll find something to comment and moan about that being too much
By the way smart arse, you have seen the PS Audio listening room I take it? Laughable that your telling me a set of MA Towers is overkill. Did you moan at paul for overkill with his 7ft tall infinity speakers......?? I doubt it. Bore off
One of my good friend who is deaf just runs a subwoofer as their speaker! One of the interesting and great things about having a great subwoofer is that it's inclusive to people deaf or hard of hearing as they can at least feel the rhythms and low frequency sound effects in film. Hip hop is huge in the deaf community for this reason. A lot of hip hop artists will have a sign language interpreter at their shows as they can vibe to the beat and understanding lyrics.
Hi Paul, I'm from the UK and use subwoofers. I took your advice and bought two REL T9i subwoofers to augment my system. After careful setting-up I'm absolutely delighted! There's no going back. BTW I started with one subwoofer but stereo subs are definitely the way to go for balance stereo and imaging.
You wasted your money. A pair of Definitive Technology Powerfield Supercube II's cost about half as much (if you can still find them), take up less floor space, have twice the power, and none of that gay bluetooth, which can introduce lag, distortion, etc. Also, I used to run a pair of Klipsch Reference 12's, but was unhappy with the newer design, with all that electronic tripe. Trouble with the Definitive cube is its placement is quite critical, as opposed to other models of subs. The Klipsch References with 12" long throw woofers are only good down to about 24 to 26 Hz, while the Definitive's lower cutoff is a ridiculously low 16 Hz. Of course, I had an apartment with cinderblock exterior walls, and placed the sub at a 45 degree angle in the corner, providing good "horn loading" and acoustic impedance matching. Is that cheating? Not really. We use what works well, _in practice_ . If it don't work well, we try again... But your RELs are rated at 6 dB down at 28 Hz, making the lower cutoff somewhere around 33 Hz ... compared to the Definitive's, you lose a whole octave there.. FWIW: dual subs (actually twin subs) can really help reduce standing waves, room narrowing, and other room acoustic issues, if properly placed in relation to each other, and with careful tweaking of the phase controls. But after trying several other brands, I would NEVER shell out three grand for a pair of Rels...
I going to say this ( speaking as a Brit) difficult to get deep bass in small rooms. I have had a sub since the 90s, always rel. But fact is everyone loves bass and I think love of bass is is reserved for car systems over here where people are disturb ed momentarily as you drive by
I guess you mean as opposed to living-spaces in the US, like where it's a lot more open and separated?... Because yes, also here in The Netherlands we have many more houses that are attached and more compacted together, quite similar to the UK. - I live in one like that and, while luckily I now have neighbors who just don't really care (I had ones who threatened with violence before for ANY noise at the wrong time), I do have to be careful to not shake the rooms a few houses down the same block of attached houses. - I do everything to keep volumes controlled and speaker-cabinets raised and so forth, from my bookshelf-sized speakers to subwoofers and my guitar-speaker cabinet. But I know for fact that anything will be heard, cause we can almost make out words through the stone walls here. I do have a 12" Kenwood subwoofer in the attic that's already nuts at like 25%, so I rarely use it. But I also have a cute little Eltax 6" (I believe it was) that does a good job in the living room. - But I definitely do it at the risk of bothering my neighbors, though I try to not play anything too later or early. - That said, sometimes my (friendly) Vietnamese neighbors will randomly start blasting their karaoke-setup late at night on weekends, which is WAY louder and more annoying than what I play. - But hey, fair enough trade-off I suppose, as I do it more often.
UK dude here... I have myself two massive sealed 15's and a small sealed 10, all home built, running on miniDSP as flat as I can get 'em down to 20hz. They work. Friend of mine has a lovely collection of Genelec 12's from his studio days deployed in various spots (one being his VW transporter). We ain't all total bassophobes.
@@MAELOB I've heard a lot of good things about DIRAC - annoyingly my 2x4HD can be firmware upgraded to the DIRAC - but it costs almost as much as I bought the original for... A shame, but my multi-sub room is sounding good enough as it is so I guess I'll have to keep playing it by ear - pun intended
Hi Paul, Planning to buy 02 (REL T5x Subs) to go with my (Xavian MIA ll Bookshelves) (Stereo 2.2). Power Amp Atoll IN 200 in (Bypass mode). Supplying Separate L-R channel High Current signals to both Subs. Crossover, maybe, between 60Hz to 70Hz . The advantage is to capitalize on benefits of altering crossovers, volumes and positions independently, which is not an option for Floor standing speakers. My Speaker Specs are:- Speaker sensitivity 86dB; 2V/1m. Frequency range (55-40,000 Hz). Normal Impedance 4 ohm. Mid Bass frequency unit (Vifa-Peerless Premium Line Paper memberane driver) 149mm (5.87 inch). High frequency unit (Vifa-Peerless treated fabric soft dome unit) 25mm (0.99 inch). Crossover frequency at 3,000 Hz. Recommended amplification 30-120W. Placement from the wall recommended (60-100cm). My Atoll IN200 Specs are :- Intigrated Class AB amp. Dual Mono architecture. Fully Discrete component Audio stages. Power amp in bypass mode. (Fully Discreet Dual Mono Design.) Efficacy Power. 2 X 120Wrms @ 8 ohms (230v). [2 X 200Wrms @ 4 ohms (230v).] Input Impedance. 220 kohms. Power Stage. 2 pairs per channel MOS-FET double Push-Pull configuration. Power Supply (Toroidal Transformers). 2 X 330 (VA) = 660(VA) Chacun. Power Supply Filter Capacitors. Nippon Chemi-Con Capacitors. 8 X (71v)6800uF = 27200uF X 2 = 54400uF. Frequency Response. 5Hz to 100kHz. Sensitivity 100 mV. Distortion rate (THD+N). < 0.05% / (10 W) Signal to noise ratio (S/N ratio). 100dB. Rise Time 2.5us
From the UK and I use and have used many subs. Just spent 3k treating my room, finishing off with targeted pressure traps at 70hz for behind the speakers/sub on the front wall where that frequency pressure (distortion) is highest. Just a few things...you have to treat the whole room! You have to use treatment that can absorb bass to a low enough frequency (thick 4”+ deep traps), room modes are room distortion. Most people have rooms that introduce massive amounts of coloration especially in the low end and they aren’t even aware of it. Bass traps ideally deal with ALL frequencies including bass, not treating all bass frequencies will lead to an unbalanced sound and uneven frequency response. As an audiophile for the last 25+ years and having used and sold every level of hifi from entry level to the greatest hifi on earth costing hundreds of thousands of pounds to studios and the public, I can put my hand on my heart and state that treating the room acoustically is the single biggest improvement I have ever made! There is a reason studios go to the lengths they do with acoustic treatment. Your room offers a minimum of 50% distortion or worse! Worried about getting an extra order of magnitude less distortion in an amp 😆 when the room is a mess of distortion??! All audiophiles should treat the space they listen to music in, just as Paul has, but to a greater extent. Hearing music, movies and for me studio work with actual accuracy can’t be understated. Domestic treatment is the way forward if you actually want to hear high fidelity sound.
I find the best treatment to be an incredibly chaotic mess of a room with senseless furniture, clothes, shelves, clothes rails, record shelves, and a rug.
Great write up! Hifi is one of the nicer things in life. As with most nice things in life, we want it to be aesthetically pleasing as well as doing what it does best. Room treatment seem to be one of those things that runs counter to aesthetics. It’s a shame shame, and I think it’s a growing market with demands that should be addressed somehow:
Nathan, even though you are in the UK, could you mention the brand of commercial traps, absorbers, etc. that you used? I have a winter project to begin room treatment and there are too many choices. I'm frozen in indecision.
@@martytoo Is DSP room correction on your sub(s) something you're trying to avoid? The ability to just plug in a box, let it do its sweeps with the mic in the right spot, and perfect bass for a lot less time and money than going all out with room treatment? I think an antimode costs about £230 ish and you're all good - it completely transformed my system (admittedly a fairly budget system in the big scheme of things) in 10 minutes.
@@yyams I'm not even at the point where I've tried subs. I need too buy another rig and add one our two pieces of upholstered furniture. Then if the room is still sounding the way it does nowI will add bass traps and likely absorbers and possibly diffusers.
BTW, the water sloshing around in a tub was a great analogy! In an infinite plane with two sources, the max peak of the sum would be 3dB, whereas the points of phase inversion would essentially completely cancel out each other entirely. Unfortunately for those wanting perfect audio rooms are not infinite and tend to resonate at some frequency due to a high efficiency of resonance ("Q") due to the size VS the wavelength of the frequency and focus that energy in certain places within the room. The same thing happens at radio frequencies too! Have you ever noticed how when you cook something in one of those old microwaves (before the time of the turntable that came along to help even out the cooking problems) some spots are over-cooked and some under-cooked? Same principal. Some places the energy gets concentrated and it waaay to high and it gets burned, and other places it cancels and you have a cold spot that is under-cooked.
I use mini DSP (only on my low level sub out) to even out the bass, works really great. 5 dB reduction at 35 Hz, high Q (narrow band). The room mode is gone.
I think that was old school purist thinking for a short period. I've never known anyone who doesn't incorporate a subwoofer and I'm going back to the 80's... so don't worry Paul, we Brits love subs!
many brits live in small houses that are physically joined onto their neighbors house, using a sub in one of these types of houses would drive your neighbors insane, I suspect that's the real reason.
Having enough bass or having a flat frequency response isn't great if the price is a boomy bass with poor decay performance through the use of ported designs, radiators, and too much bass bouncing on walls. You want the bass sound waves to stop when they are supposed to stop.
A subwoofer is for reproducing the sound and a bass-trap is there to get rid of the reflection from the walls. If you can, take your speakers, outside in an open field. And you will listen to the speakers and not your room reflections.
Always loved Subs in my trucks. Inside a box you can control sound more and can jack up the high tones more to compensate for the extra bass without it being ear splitting. Tried a couple different Subs on my main home system over the years but having 8 - 10" wolfers already they really didn't add much. It would be like Paul adding subs to his IRS V's. Just not needed. On a side note I would love to know why those IRS V's tweeter/mid towers are so damn wide? And why the couple sets I have seen on-line the Woofer tower is behind the tweeter/ mid tower and with the wings of the tweeter / mid tower curved channeling the woofer's sound to the rear facing tweeters and mids canceling them out? So many questions??
Good questions. The IRS wings are wide to support the lowest freqs produced by the 12 EMIM drivers. As I remember the x-overs were somewhat variable, 70hz etc. But even as high as 100hz, the wavelengths are still 11.3 feet. So the nicely curved wings (minimize diffraction) have ample width to assure a proper wave-launch yet largely free from cancelation nulling down in the longer wavelength region at the x-over. Regarding the LF tower's physical placement; For performance reasons avoiding early reflections you don't want it anywhere forward of the main panels. Perhaps there's not room enough out to the sides. Placement behind the main panels wouldn't "channel the woofer's sound to the rear mids/tweets canceling them out". The physics involved doesn't result in any problematic cancelation. The bass wavelengths are so large that they easily diffract around and continue propagating into the room. However, you're right in that the key sonic attribute to get right in the relative placement of the Bass Tower relative to the Mid/Hi Panel, is the correct acoustic summation to achieve the desired frequency response/phase alignment within the shared bandwidth at the x-over frequency. To get that right, you use every tool at your disposal. Overall room placement, relative placement to one another, adjustable x-over freq, slope, high-pass, low-pass, level, parametric EQ, polarity, phase ... absolutely every adjustable parameter one has access to should be at play.
@@FOH3663 Wow....I am realizing I'm a really stupid person after reading that. lol. I hear what you are saying. It's just seems like massive overkill but I guess that's what it's all about. Basically floor to ceiling tweets, mids (both sides) and woofers....nothing wrong with that. One day I will have to hear a set of V's and see if they are all they are cracked up to be. I love the 4 IRS IIIa's I have now. It should be like having 18 of them. lol
@@finscreenname ... uh the 4 IRS IIIs you have? Yeah, that's not so stupid! I'm beginning my sixth decade immersed in audio! Along the way I've picked up a thing or two interacting with savvy individuals like yourself.
I think it's important to differentiate between "bass frequencies" and "sub-bass frequencies" when speaking on this topic - your subwoofer is to augment "sub-bass frequencies" in the system, while your bass traps will affect "bass frequencies" - meaning, ALL bass frequencies, not just the ultra-low sub-bass frequencies. Everyone's room can benefit from the use of bass traps, regardless of whether you use a subwoofer(s) or not. My experience with bass traps is that they become less effective the lower you go in frequency, but they're kind of optimal in the region of 60/70hz on up.
A subwoofer radiates as a sphere. The bass that go straight line from the woofer to your ears. And also think of that it is only ~15% of the sound you hear is direct sound! But at the same time it also go towards the wall and reflect back to you in best one time but generally it bounces many times before it reach you. That reflected sound will have a longer way to travel and will arrive to your ears delayed. So in practice drum hit will be prolonged and have longer decay time than intended and is not in the recording at all. It is your room that adding that for you. If we treat all our wall surface hypotetical, with very thick absorbers (some call it bass traps). Then we will absorb the reflected sound energy(the more times it try to bounce of a wall the more it will get attenuated/absorbed). The sound will decay much "sooner" and you will get a cleaner and more defined bass reproduction. And get closer to what the creator were intended you to hear. If we exaggerate this so it is easier to understand. Think of if you put your stereo in a big church that has those long reverberation times. And play pop with a steady bass beat of 120 BPM. What a catastrophic event you could probably not distinguish where one beat ends and the next starts when the previous beat is still bouncing around against the hard bare walls.
What I can't figure out with bass traps is why you want to bother taming the bass in the corners of a room, after all you're not going to stand in the corners to listen to music. Having said that I do have big foam traps in two corners!! Am I missing the point?
I think its interesting you say the HIFI community in the UK doesnt use subwoofers. My main focus in audio is on PA equipment and as far as PA subwoofers go, UK does it large and in charge.
I like using synthesizers to play with the relationships between the frequency responses of the various points like my ears, my speakers, etc. I want to know my system as intimately as possible, because frankly I use my hifi system as a monitoring system for my experimental music.
Something tells me PS Audio has a powered sub coming down the pike, I have zero basis for my theory, lol! But i think they just might do it sometime after the main speaker line is introduced.
Another similar but different question, why 2 subwoofers if bass below a certain frequency is already non-directional? Does it change the sound and feel of the low frequency with 2 subwoofers? Do u just want to soften the bass without losing the volume with 2 subwoofers?
Hi Paul here in the UK we make the best speakers in the world we don’t need subs, I think I’ve sed it before movies yes music no, I watch all your videos all extremely interesting you have a great knowledge and a great company would love to visit sometime,here in Scotland we have some great hi-fi products.thanks.Tony
A) The UK does not. B) If your so called best speakers have anything less than a 12" woofer, you need a sub. Even most that have a 12" can benefit from a sub.
Here is all I know. When I set up my RELs per their specs it worked great. When I switch my LRSs with my RF-7 IIs 5' out from the front wall I get standing bass waves at the front wall with the subs off. I dont get that with the LRSs pairs with 2 REL subs. Weird but probably has to do with the rear ports on the RF7s?
If the sub is out of phase with the standing wave, it will interfere with it. Place the sub so it is 90degree (or 270) out of phase, and it will cancel the standing wave (and possible create a new one in a new location). The trick is to find that spot where the sub is in phase and time to the listener, and out of phase to the worst room nodes. Usually it is easier to place the sub for the listener and use room treatment for the nodes. for instance, 60Hz has a wavelength of about 18.75'. put the sub about 4' (or about 13') from the standing wave node and it will cancel it. Often this will be centerish behind the main speakers, and will be close to being in phase for the listener.
buy a mic, install REW software and measure which frequencies are amplified and which are pacified by your room. It will for sure coincide with your room dimensions. Probably the best way is to install base traps which can do the job from 30Hz up, but this will consume a lot of your room and money. Instead try out room correction device SHD Studio from MiniDSP. It does the job done and you can match it with high end without worrying about degradation of sound quality. It cost ~1000 EUR. You stuff it between your source and DAC. I bet your wife will appreciate it over huge bass traps (don't expect one or two traps would change much. You'd need to have virtually a whole wall fitted with these to nullify the resonances - they can be very nasty: mountains and dips of 15-20dB
I use British made Mordaunt Short floor standing speakers, I get 200 watts per channel and no sub woofer is required. I would think less of speakers if they required a sub woofer to give it the punch of bass that is expected from a set of speakers.
Another alternative is DSP room correction. In my home theater I use DSP correction just for the bass with the little DSPEAKER anti-mode unit, and for my desktop system I use a mini-dsp with Dirac room correction. I am satisfied with it. love my bass
Treating the room is better than eq. With eq, you will have horrible power response and phase shift. Plus, you most likely will never fix peaks and dips with eq in the bass range if the room is causing it.
@@erikkroll2154 disagree with your very generalized assertion, it all depends to specific circumstances when you measure the room, but software like DIrAc works very well in lots of cases and well respected in audio circles. Off course combination would be the perfect solution. DSP has come long ways
Our basement apartment is built like Paul's proverbial brick shithouse. Italian tile floor, brick bar on one end and a brick fireplace on the opposite. Really an awful design for listening, but my goodness does it cause the bass to do some weird stuff. Stand in one corner of the room, behind the bar, and it's overwhelming bass from the sub. In front of the tv, the bass is lacking.
i love and need eq. best tool in audio...yes people equalizers...tone controls...tone is something you can and MUST control and set to taste. and room correction, tuning etc etc eq as needed from your streaming player or use a standalone eq unit. a must have.
Ageed endrizo, it's simply a function of the physics involved. You're right, be it parametric EQ, an automated time/freq approach, physical placement... those big peaky resonances need tamed, and one should use whatever it takes. Placement goes a long way, but resonances remain, EQ is the answer. * Imagine a bass guitar, or an upright acoustic bass being played in front of you. All is well except everytime the bassist hits one specific note, it's 10x 𝙡𝙤𝙪𝙙𝙚𝙧 than any other note. AND, that 10x louder note lingers on and on moreso than the other note.
Bass traps can help but are much harder to be successful with for the average room IMO. Multiple subs are equally as effective (if not more so) as bass traps at taming peaks. with properly aligned subs you've essentially created a virtual bass trap, which has a ton of flexibility, more so than regular bass traps. I'd have to assume that a big reason as to why subs not be as popular in the UK (if this even accurate) is due to the Percentage of people living in apartments?
I had 2 subs for a long time, 2 15 inch monitor audio gold aubs and when I upgraded I had to go back to 1 while I saved for a second ( I bought svs sb4000 subs ) and to me the problems of the room were only very marginally dealt with by thr second sub being added. I have added 12 acoustic panels, 3 inch thick primacouatic 24x48 panels and 4 are corner mounted, 2 on the rear wall and 4 on the ceiling and 2 on the front wall on thr inside of the cormer panels. Adding the panels in 3 different lots ( 4 at a time ) I had several months to hear the difference in sound and each time it made easily as much difference as adding a second sub. Also for me moving my listening position made significantly more difference than moving the subs. If you're in a null related to the room dimensions in your listening position then sub placement doesn't do much, same with a huge bass buildup close to the back wall.
@@dalechalfont112 Agreed multi sub is not an end all for every scenario, but its definitely an overlooked option which is incredibly effective and why I mentioned it as an option for the person who asked Paul the question. If you don't mind me asking, what did you use to align the subs? I highly recommend not using a receivers calibration software to align subs, unless its a trinnov. Mini DSP is an outstanding solution for the money to help balance out LFE issues with multiple subs. There is a ton of trial and error though
A subwoofer doesn't work so well in a solid brick construction that is small, in America a lot of the walls are drywall bass go through it it doesn't Trap the bass
Bass traps are not always needed, I run hframe open baffle subs and lucky to have a big open area behind the listening position so no horrible resonance. Open baffle makes a huge difference, I used to run two IB subs and both peaks and nulls were a major issue with that setup. Open baffle is pretty smooth without EQ to below 30hz.
My room is very problematic with nasty bass resonance(s) (there he goes again). Can it be fixed? Possibly. Can I afford to get it fixed right? No. Should I move? I'd prefer not to, otherwise this is a decent and affordable apartment in a nice old neighborhood. Bass shy music is still infinitely better than no music.
@@MAELOB No, just an incomplete one. Most of my listening is from chrome doughnuts, both red book and super audio. I'm currently using a pair of the SP-BS22-LR wonder puppies (very good from the mids up, not quite LS3/5a class of course, but not that far behind either; viva Andrew Jones, hero of audiophiles of all socio-economic strata!) on tallish stands with rolled up wool socks plugging the rear firing ports. A touch of roll off with the bass tone control finishes the job. Even these can excite the resonance at greater than moderate volumes. Side effect, no complaints from the other tenants. My little integrated amp has a tape monitor loop so it would not be difficult to insert a ADC/DSP/DAC into and out of the signal path as desired. Do you have any recommendations that are affordable by mere mortals? This is not an area of knowledge beyond the existence of such devices for me.
@Fat Rat He has presented a proposal, but it is way, waayyy above my (non)pay grade. Reproducing Robert Harley's listening room (TAS #293) and building a house around it on land that I'd have to acquire would be much cheaper. Prof. don't give it away. "Not now. Not Ever! [loud, shrill voice font on] NEVER!!!" [loud, shrill voice font off] -- Andy Williams
Why gives it so much Qualitidiffernce between good Electricie Conducters or MLC Caps. Its right good Conection have a good Hold uptime. Its for right for real Watt the it can be take it the Wover or Bass and the complete Box.
the way I'm thinking about it is the subwoofer adds the low frequencies because they wouldn't be there at all if you didn't have one... but you have to tame the issues of the room once you add those low frequencies.
Five minutes, could have been one. And you could have explained 'bass traps' are to remove past bass, remove bass reverberation that lingers and clouds new sounds. we don't want echo, echo, echo.
So Paul you're always pushing REL subwoofers. I get it your friend owns the company and they do sound good with music. But in several conversations you have said that you would only make a servo controlled woofer. So I am a bit confused and to me you sound a little disingenious when you refer to REL instead of Rhythmik. What gives?
Nobody makes a multi-band sub-EQ. (you only need 5-6 bands) Not sure why this is. Most built-in sub-"controllers" are woefully inadequate for a typical room. I plan to build my own sub-EQ. It's a lot cheaper than building traps and/or room treatments and gives you 90% of the benefits. That's one thing EQ's do well..tame resonance peaks.
These bass trap discussions give me a headache. Bigger subs to begin with or even having 2 or 3 with large main speakers isn’t necessarily the way to go. Better to start small or even borrow and test and evaluate. I made the mistake of buying too large of a sub. It’s an M&K 2x12 version with 200w. One sub fires downward. I first out in the family room which wasn’t a very big room. The thing is that I was already getting decent bass output from my bookshelf speakers. I realized sub was way too much for the family room. I moved the sub into the larger living room and it was great. Shakes the whole house. Crazy deep clean solid bass. I moved from that old house and into a new home and out the M&K sub in the larger living room also. It worked out again. Same solid bass. The smaller system is again the family room. At first I was only running the bookshelf speakers but I decided to add some small satellite speakers which came with a much smaller 8 in sub. It was perfect. Matches real nice with family room set up. I’ve had it this way for over 15 years now. No need for any bass traps.
Wow , big problems for audiophiles who are totally ignoring tone controls . They still don't have a clue what for are trebles and bass controls . Can't wait till "they" realize , oh we don't need a volume control anymore too !!! LOL
I like Paul McGowan, but I wish I could speed up the video by 5-fold. You can get great bass for audio (not TV and movies), by using a great speaker (passive of active) with a great preamp/source.
it appears you might not be aware... you *_can_* speed up the video. the bottom right 'task bar' has a "gear" indicator for settings adjustments. one of the options in there is *PLAYBACK SPEED*
To realise the full potential of a decent high end subwoofer you absolutely MUST have a large room ....FACT ! Small rooms and decent bass don't and cannot exist
Wrong, Wrong, WRONG! Room dimensions affect sound and performance far more than room size. In fact, large, boxy, rectangular rooms are notorious for inducing standing waves. SYMPTOM: Bass comes and goes as you move around the room, and always sounds better out in the hallway. I have seen larger subwoofers work better in smaller rooms of say, 8 by 10 feet, than smaller subs in the same room. Again, standing waves and reflective interference patterns are of concern with woofers physically too small for the space, because smaller cones cannot move enough air to effectively swamp out the acoustics. This is why auditoriums will have a lot of absorptive surfaces, be carefully engineered for acoustics, and have Big, HUGE drivers in their woofers.
@@gyrgrls you're half right .. I agree ! Small rooms and large rooms ... always make for good technical debate !! All I know is that rooms that are small (viz: with dimensions less than a quarter of a wavelength at lowest frequencies) become pure pressure domains and yes ! bass is good no matter where you listen albeit somewhat " compressed " due to the volumetric constriction of the room . The only way to hear good dynamic bass is outdoors .. or very large rooms with irregular shapes and vaulted ceilings .. like my listening room is ( it is a custom built pentagonal room on concrete floor with a 15' high vaulted ceiling ..
I don't think of it as trapping bass I paid to create. I think of it as killing the reverberation that's ruining the bass I paid to create.
Exactly, the reduction in decay was the most noticeable improvement when deploying bass traps. Multiple subs and EQ are the most effective means to achieve a flat response. Both are important...
Why some put dislike, this old gentleman is so nice and know so much about HiFi in general and about HiFi history.
Im in the Uk and run dual SVS subwoofers with Monitor Audio Towers. I have 16" square columns filled with Rockwool for Bass absorption in the corners (floor to ceiling) and use 4" for panels at 1st and 2nd reflection points and clouds. Its one of the best upgrades Ive done in terms of having a big impact on Music listening. I bought a few panels at first then made the rest myself which was very easy. Highly recommend doing it to everyone.
Seems to me you went overkill to begin with and now spending more money to tone it down. Seems counter productive. But hey it’s your money.
@@f430ferrari5 You have no idea about my room and by the sounds of it no idea about Room treatment.
@@BoredSilly666 well share your room measurements. I’m sure it doesn’t require dual SVS subs and Monitor Audio Towers. What size are the woofer drivers. Probably at least 12. Yes?
Already went over this pertaining to another RUclips Thomas. He admitted he likes big speakers and probably did indeed get too big sizes for the room he has so he put in bass traps.
Like I said before it seems counterproductive.
@@f430ferrari5 You do realise the point in doing this is improved sound right? Your talking like ive just chucked this all this in a room and am now trying to combat the overkill. dual subs improved my frequency response as does the traps. Combats comb filtering and reverb. Youve made blind assumptions and seem like one of these folk that will argue the toss just for the sake of it. I cant be bothered, find someone else. I have a 7.2.4 set up . Im sure youll find something to comment and moan about that being too much
By the way smart arse, you have seen the PS Audio listening room I take it? Laughable that your telling me a set of MA Towers is overkill. Did you moan at paul for overkill with his 7ft tall infinity speakers......?? I doubt it. Bore off
One of my good friend who is deaf just runs a subwoofer as their speaker!
One of the interesting and great things about having a great subwoofer is that it's inclusive to people deaf or hard of hearing as they can at least feel the rhythms and low frequency sound effects in film.
Hip hop is huge in the deaf community for this reason. A lot of hip hop artists will have a sign language interpreter at their shows as they can vibe to the beat and understanding lyrics.
Hi Paul, I'm from the UK and use subwoofers. I took your advice and bought two REL T9i subwoofers to augment my system. After careful setting-up I'm absolutely delighted! There's no going back. BTW I started with one subwoofer but stereo subs are definitely the way to go for balance stereo and imaging.
You wasted your money. A pair of Definitive Technology Powerfield Supercube II's cost about half as much (if you can still find them), take up less floor space, have twice the power, and none of that gay bluetooth, which can introduce lag, distortion, etc. Also, I used to run a pair of Klipsch Reference 12's, but was unhappy with the newer design, with all that electronic tripe. Trouble with the Definitive cube is its placement is quite critical, as opposed to other models of subs. The Klipsch References with 12" long throw woofers are only good down to about 24 to 26 Hz, while the Definitive's lower cutoff is a ridiculously low 16 Hz. Of course, I had an apartment with cinderblock exterior walls, and placed the sub at a 45 degree angle in the corner, providing good "horn loading" and acoustic impedance matching. Is that cheating? Not really. We use what works well, _in practice_ . If it don't work well, we try again... But your RELs are rated at 6 dB down at 28 Hz, making the lower cutoff somewhere around 33 Hz ... compared to the Definitive's, you lose a whole octave there.. FWIW: dual subs (actually twin subs) can really help reduce standing waves, room narrowing, and other room acoustic issues, if properly placed in relation to each other, and with careful tweaking of the phase controls. But after trying several other brands, I would NEVER shell out three grand for a pair of Rels...
I love my rel subs. You did the right thing. Nothing is faster or sounds better when properly set up.
I think the reason why we British are reluctant to adopt subs is the small acommodation and close proximity to neighbours.
I going to say this ( speaking as a Brit) difficult to get deep bass in small rooms. I have had a sub since the 90s, always rel. But fact is everyone loves bass and I think love of bass is is reserved for car systems over here where people are disturb ed momentarily as you drive by
I guess you mean as opposed to living-spaces in the US, like where it's a lot more open and separated?... Because yes, also here in The Netherlands we have many more houses that are attached and more compacted together, quite similar to the UK. - I live in one like that and, while luckily I now have neighbors who just don't really care (I had ones who threatened with violence before for ANY noise at the wrong time), I do have to be careful to not shake the rooms a few houses down the same block of attached houses. - I do everything to keep volumes controlled and speaker-cabinets raised and so forth, from my bookshelf-sized speakers to subwoofers and my guitar-speaker cabinet. But I know for fact that anything will be heard, cause we can almost make out words through the stone walls here.
I do have a 12" Kenwood subwoofer in the attic that's already nuts at like 25%, so I rarely use it. But I also have a cute little Eltax 6" (I believe it was) that does a good job in the living room. - But I definitely do it at the risk of bothering my neighbors, though I try to not play anything too later or early. - That said, sometimes my (friendly) Vietnamese neighbors will randomly start blasting their karaoke-setup late at night on weekends, which is WAY louder and more annoying than what I play. - But hey, fair enough trade-off I suppose, as I do it more often.
just got a Rel today, so far I love it, a little tweaking is all thats needed, I gor for a subtle boost in bass, 2.1 system
UK dude here... I have myself two massive sealed 15's and a small sealed 10, all home built, running on miniDSP as flat as I can get 'em down to 20hz. They work. Friend of mine has a lovely collection of Genelec 12's from his studio days deployed in various spots (one being his VW transporter).
We ain't all total bassophobes.
(in my tiny room:D)
I love my mini DSP with DIRAC room correction, highly recommended
@@MAELOB I've heard a lot of good things about DIRAC - annoyingly my 2x4HD can be firmware upgraded to the DIRAC - but it costs almost as much as I bought the original for... A shame, but my multi-sub room is sounding good enough as it is so I guess I'll have to keep playing it by ear - pun intended
Hi Paul,
Planning to buy 02 (REL T5x Subs) to go with my (Xavian MIA ll Bookshelves) (Stereo 2.2). Power Amp Atoll IN 200 in (Bypass mode). Supplying Separate L-R channel High Current signals to both Subs.
Crossover, maybe, between 60Hz to 70Hz . The advantage is to capitalize on benefits of altering crossovers, volumes and positions independently, which is not an option for Floor standing speakers.
My Speaker Specs are:-
Speaker sensitivity 86dB; 2V/1m.
Frequency range (55-40,000 Hz).
Normal Impedance 4 ohm.
Mid Bass frequency unit (Vifa-Peerless Premium Line Paper memberane driver) 149mm (5.87 inch).
High frequency unit (Vifa-Peerless treated fabric soft dome unit) 25mm (0.99 inch).
Crossover frequency at 3,000 Hz.
Recommended amplification 30-120W.
Placement from the wall recommended (60-100cm).
My Atoll IN200 Specs are :-
Intigrated Class AB amp.
Dual Mono architecture.
Fully Discrete component Audio stages.
Power amp in bypass mode.
(Fully Discreet Dual Mono Design.)
Efficacy Power.
2 X 120Wrms @ 8 ohms (230v).
[2 X 200Wrms @ 4 ohms (230v).]
Input Impedance.
220 kohms.
Power Stage.
2 pairs per channel MOS-FET
double Push-Pull configuration.
Power Supply (Toroidal Transformers).
2 X 330 (VA) = 660(VA) Chacun.
Power Supply Filter Capacitors.
Nippon Chemi-Con Capacitors.
8 X (71v)6800uF = 27200uF X 2 = 54400uF.
Frequency Response.
5Hz to 100kHz.
Sensitivity
100 mV.
Distortion rate (THD+N).
< 0.05% / (10 W)
Signal to noise ratio (S/N ratio).
100dB.
Rise Time
2.5us
From the UK and I use and have used many subs. Just spent 3k treating my room, finishing off with targeted pressure traps at 70hz for behind the speakers/sub on the front wall where that frequency pressure (distortion) is highest.
Just a few things...you have to treat the whole room! You have to use treatment that can absorb bass to a low enough frequency (thick 4”+ deep traps), room modes are room distortion. Most people have rooms that introduce massive amounts of coloration especially in the low end and they aren’t even aware of it. Bass traps ideally deal with ALL frequencies including bass, not treating all bass frequencies will lead to an unbalanced sound and uneven frequency response.
As an audiophile for the last 25+ years and having used and sold every level of hifi from entry level to the greatest hifi on earth costing hundreds of thousands of pounds to studios and the public, I can put my hand on my heart and state that treating the room acoustically is the single biggest improvement I have ever made! There is a reason studios go to the lengths they do with acoustic treatment. Your room offers a minimum of 50% distortion or worse! Worried about getting an extra order of magnitude less distortion in an amp 😆 when the room is a mess of distortion??! All audiophiles should treat the space they listen to music in, just as Paul has, but to a greater extent. Hearing music, movies and for me studio work with actual accuracy can’t be understated. Domestic treatment is the way forward if you actually want to hear high fidelity sound.
I find the best treatment to be an incredibly chaotic mess of a room with senseless furniture, clothes, shelves, clothes rails, record shelves, and a rug.
Great write up! Hifi is one of the nicer things in life. As with most nice things in life, we want it to be aesthetically pleasing as well as doing what it does best. Room treatment seem to be one of those things that runs counter to aesthetics. It’s a shame shame, and I think it’s a growing market with demands that should be addressed somehow:
Nathan, even though you are in the UK, could you mention the brand of commercial traps, absorbers, etc. that you used? I have a winter project to begin room treatment and there are too many choices. I'm frozen in indecision.
@@martytoo Is DSP room correction on your sub(s) something you're trying to avoid? The ability to just plug in a box, let it do its sweeps with the mic in the right spot, and perfect bass for a lot less time and money than going all out with room treatment? I think an antimode costs about £230 ish and you're all good - it completely transformed my system (admittedly a fairly budget system in the big scheme of things) in 10 minutes.
@@yyams I'm not even at the point where I've tried subs. I need too buy another rig and add one our two pieces of upholstered furniture. Then if the room is still sounding the way it does nowI will add bass traps and likely absorbers and possibly diffusers.
BTW, the water sloshing around in a tub was a great analogy! In an infinite plane with two sources, the max peak of the sum would be 3dB, whereas the points of phase inversion would essentially completely cancel out each other entirely. Unfortunately for those wanting perfect audio rooms are not infinite and tend to resonate at some frequency due to a high efficiency of resonance ("Q") due to the size VS the wavelength of the frequency and focus that energy in certain places within the room. The same thing happens at radio frequencies too! Have you ever noticed how when you cook something in one of those old microwaves (before the time of the turntable that came along to help even out the cooking problems) some spots are over-cooked and some under-cooked? Same principal. Some places the energy gets concentrated and it waaay to high and it gets burned, and other places it cancels and you have a cold spot that is under-cooked.
I am from Wales. I have a Rel sub.
Damn, im really looking forward to That Book.
I use mini DSP (only on my low level sub out) to even out the bass, works really great.
5 dB reduction at 35 Hz, high Q (narrow band). The room mode is gone.
Sounds hard Paul - My room was "VERY" Excited with I got my two subs!!!
I think that was old school purist thinking for a short period. I've never known anyone who doesn't incorporate a subwoofer and I'm going back to the 80's... so don't worry Paul, we Brits love subs!
If Brits had subwoofers they wouldn't have room for their tiny fridges.
you need big fridges to fit all your burgers in..
many brits live in small houses that are physically joined onto their neighbors house, using a sub in one of these types of houses would drive your neighbors insane, I suspect that's the real reason.
@Fat Rat hi REL was a British manufacturer but no more it’s all made in China now,and our fridges are getting bigger unfortunately
Brits are short on subs right now due to all the skives during corona outbreak in the swot camps
@Chris I'm sure they enjoy your music when they're trying to watch east enders :)
Having enough bass or having a flat frequency response isn't great if the price is a boomy bass with poor decay performance through the use of ported designs, radiators, and too much bass bouncing on walls. You want the bass sound waves to stop when they are supposed to stop.
I can't keep my eyes off the new transport sitting on the bench right next to Paul.
Just saying Thanks for taking time to do these Q&A's.
I'm in the UK and have 2 subwoofers.
I'm on a long journey to adding acoustic treatment 🤔😁🤦♂️👍🏼
Going the long route IMO is the best way for one to learn.
Go into the long route IMO is the best way for one to learn.
Will these stop my neighbors from banging on my door?
A subwoofer is for reproducing the sound and a bass-trap is there to get rid of the reflection from the walls. If you can, take your speakers, outside in an open field. And you will listen to the speakers and not your room reflections.
Always loved Subs in my trucks. Inside a box you can control sound more and can jack up the high tones more to compensate for the extra bass without it being ear splitting. Tried a couple different Subs on my main home system over the years but having 8 - 10" wolfers already they really didn't add much. It would be like Paul adding subs to his IRS V's. Just not needed.
On a side note I would love to know why those IRS V's tweeter/mid towers are so damn wide? And why the couple sets I have seen on-line the Woofer tower is behind the tweeter/ mid tower and with the wings of the tweeter / mid tower curved channeling the woofer's sound to the rear facing tweeters and mids canceling them out? So many questions??
Good questions.
The IRS wings are wide to support the lowest freqs produced by the 12 EMIM drivers.
As I remember the x-overs were somewhat variable, 70hz etc. But even as high as 100hz, the wavelengths are still 11.3 feet. So the nicely curved wings (minimize diffraction) have ample width to assure a proper wave-launch yet largely free from cancelation nulling down in the longer wavelength region at the x-over.
Regarding the LF tower's physical placement;
For performance reasons avoiding early reflections you don't want it anywhere forward of the main panels.
Perhaps there's not room enough out to the sides.
Placement behind the main panels wouldn't "channel the woofer's sound to the rear mids/tweets canceling them out".
The physics involved doesn't result in any problematic cancelation. The bass wavelengths are so large that they easily diffract around and continue propagating into the room.
However, you're right in that the key sonic attribute to get right in the relative placement of the Bass Tower relative to the Mid/Hi Panel, is the correct acoustic summation to achieve the desired frequency response/phase alignment within the shared bandwidth at the x-over frequency.
To get that right, you use every tool at your disposal. Overall room placement, relative placement to one another, adjustable x-over freq, slope, high-pass, low-pass, level, parametric EQ, polarity, phase ... absolutely every adjustable parameter one has access to should be at play.
@@FOH3663 Wow....I am realizing I'm a really stupid person after reading that. lol.
I hear what you are saying. It's just seems like massive overkill but I guess that's what it's all about. Basically floor to ceiling tweets, mids (both sides) and woofers....nothing wrong with that. One day I will have to hear a set of V's and see if they are all they are cracked up to be. I love the 4 IRS IIIa's I have now. It should be like having 18 of them. lol
@@finscreenname
... uh the 4 IRS IIIs you have?
Yeah, that's not so stupid!
I'm beginning my sixth decade immersed in audio!
Along the way I've picked up a thing or two interacting with savvy individuals like yourself.
I think it's important to differentiate between "bass frequencies" and "sub-bass frequencies" when speaking on this topic - your subwoofer is to augment "sub-bass frequencies" in the system, while your bass traps will affect "bass frequencies" - meaning, ALL bass frequencies, not just the ultra-low sub-bass frequencies. Everyone's room can benefit from the use of bass traps, regardless of whether you use a subwoofer(s) or not. My experience with bass traps is that they become less effective the lower you go in frequency, but they're kind of optimal in the region of 60/70hz on up.
Bass traps are less effective the deeper you go with them. I should know - my uncle was a fisherman.
A subwoofer radiates as a sphere.
The bass that go straight line from the woofer to your ears.
And also think of that it is only ~15% of the sound you hear is direct sound!
But at the same time it also go towards the wall and reflect back to you in best one time but generally it bounces many times before it reach you.
That reflected sound will have a longer way to travel and will arrive to your ears delayed.
So in practice drum hit will be prolonged and have longer decay time than intended and is not in the recording at all. It is your room that adding that for you.
If we treat all our wall surface hypotetical, with very thick absorbers (some call it bass traps). Then we will absorb the reflected sound energy(the more times it try to bounce of a wall the more it will get attenuated/absorbed). The sound will decay much "sooner" and you will get a cleaner and more defined bass reproduction. And get closer to what the creator were intended you to hear.
If we exaggerate this so it is easier to understand. Think of if you put your stereo in a big church that has those long reverberation times. And play pop with a steady bass beat of 120 BPM. What a catastrophic event you could probably not distinguish where one beat ends and the next starts when the previous beat is still bouncing around against the hard bare walls.
What I can't figure out with bass traps is why you want to bother taming the bass in the corners of a room, after all you're not going
to stand in the corners to listen to music. Having said that I do have big foam traps in two corners!! Am I missing the point?
I think its interesting you say the HIFI community in the UK doesnt use subwoofers. My main focus in audio is on PA equipment and as far as PA subwoofers go, UK does it large and in charge.
I like using synthesizers to play with the relationships between the frequency responses of the various points like my ears, my speakers, etc. I want to know my system as intimately as possible, because frankly I use my hifi system as a monitoring system for my experimental music.
Something tells me PS Audio has a powered sub coming down the pike, I have zero basis for my theory, lol! But i think they just might do it sometime after the main speaker line is introduced.
The PS Audio speakers have powered bass (sub?) built in
@@Enemji OK, so theres some basis to my theory ya got me, haha! I still doubt a standalone unit will be on offer at first.
my theory is PS Audio sub will be big bang for the buck
@@hom2fu If they can offer a set of floorstanders for 5k or under, and a nice bookshelf/sub combo at around 1k, yeah thatl be some good bang!
Another similar but different question, why 2 subwoofers if bass below a certain frequency is already non-directional? Does it change the sound and feel of the low frequency with 2 subwoofers? Do u just want to soften the bass without losing the volume with 2 subwoofers?
I'm not a audiofile but I wonder if the British don't use sub woofers as much as people from the States as their houses are generally much smaller.
Bass traps are often used to remove nulls in the bass from SBIR
Hi Paul here in the UK we make the best speakers in the world we don’t need subs, I think I’ve sed it before movies yes music no, I watch all your videos all extremely interesting you have a great knowledge and a great company would love to visit sometime,here in Scotland we have some great hi-fi products.thanks.Tony
A) The UK does not.
B) If your so called best speakers have anything less than a 12" woofer, you need a sub. Even most that have a 12" can benefit from a sub.
If ya like overpriced Chinese manufactured speakers with tweeters screaming at you then yeah, you do make the best speakers.
100% agree with you Tony from down here in Sussex (spiritual home of the classic British speaker).
@@briansimmons5363 hi just buy a better speaker rather than trying to rectify the short falls
Thank you UK ! I really love my KEF Blades 2 , the look , extremely high quality craftsmanship . No need to mention the sound .
Is this going to be about hearing damage.?
Here is all I know. When I set up my RELs per their specs it worked great. When I switch my LRSs with my RF-7 IIs 5' out from the front wall I get standing bass waves at the front wall with the subs off. I dont get that with the LRSs pairs with 2 REL subs. Weird but probably has to do with the rear ports on the RF7s?
Port location definitely has an impact
If the sub is out of phase with the standing wave, it will interfere with it. Place the sub so it is 90degree (or 270) out of phase, and it will cancel the standing wave (and possible create a new one in a new location). The trick is to find that spot where the sub is in phase and time to the listener, and out of phase to the worst room nodes. Usually it is easier to place the sub for the listener and use room treatment for the nodes.
for instance, 60Hz has a wavelength of about 18.75'. put the sub about 4' (or about 13') from the standing wave node and it will cancel it. Often this will be centerish behind the main speakers, and will be close to being in phase for the listener.
buy a mic, install REW software and measure which frequencies are amplified and which are pacified by your room. It will for sure coincide with your room dimensions. Probably the best way is to install base traps which can do the job from 30Hz up, but this will consume a lot of your room and money. Instead try out room correction device SHD Studio from MiniDSP. It does the job done and you can match it with high end without worrying about degradation of sound quality. It cost ~1000 EUR. You stuff it between your source and DAC. I bet your wife will appreciate it over huge bass traps (don't expect one or two traps would change much. You'd need to have virtually a whole wall fitted with these to nullify the resonances - they can be very nasty: mountains and dips of 15-20dB
I use British made Mordaunt Short floor standing speakers, I get 200 watts per channel and no sub woofer is required. I would think less of speakers if they required a sub woofer to give it the punch of bass that is expected from a set of speakers.
Another alternative is DSP room correction. In my home theater I use DSP correction just for the bass with the little DSPEAKER anti-mode unit, and for my desktop system I use a mini-dsp with Dirac room correction. I am satisfied with it. love my bass
Treating the room is better than eq. With eq, you will have horrible power response and phase shift. Plus, you most likely will never fix peaks and dips with eq in the bass range if the room is causing it.
@@erikkroll2154 disagree with your very generalized assertion, it all depends to specific circumstances when you measure the room, but software like DIrAc works very well in lots of cases and well respected in audio circles. Off course combination would be the perfect solution. DSP has come long ways
Our basement apartment is built like Paul's proverbial brick shithouse. Italian tile floor, brick bar on one end and a brick fireplace on the opposite. Really an awful design for listening, but my goodness does it cause the bass to do some weird stuff. Stand in one corner of the room, behind the bar, and it's overwhelming bass from the sub. In front of the tv, the bass is lacking.
i love and need eq. best tool in audio...yes people equalizers...tone controls...tone is something you can and MUST control and set to taste. and room correction, tuning etc etc
eq as needed from your streaming player or use a standalone eq unit. a must have.
Ageed endrizo, it's simply a function of the physics involved.
You're right, be it parametric EQ, an automated time/freq approach, physical placement... those big peaky resonances need tamed, and one should use whatever it takes.
Placement goes a long way, but resonances remain, EQ is the answer.
* Imagine a bass guitar, or an upright acoustic bass being played in front of you.
All is well except everytime the bassist hits one specific note, it's 10x 𝙡𝙤𝙪𝙙𝙚𝙧 than any other note. AND, that 10x louder note lingers on and on moreso than the other note.
Bass traps can help but are much harder to be successful with for the average room IMO. Multiple subs are equally as effective (if not more so) as bass traps at taming peaks. with properly aligned subs you've essentially created a virtual bass trap, which has a ton of flexibility, more so than regular bass traps.
I'd have to assume that a big reason as to why subs not be as popular in the UK (if this even accurate) is due to the Percentage of people living in apartments?
I had 2 subs for a long time, 2 15 inch monitor audio gold aubs and when I upgraded I had to go back to 1 while I saved for a second ( I bought svs sb4000 subs ) and to me the problems of the room were only very marginally dealt with by thr second sub being added. I have added 12 acoustic panels, 3 inch thick primacouatic 24x48 panels and 4 are corner mounted, 2 on the rear wall and 4 on the ceiling and 2 on the front wall on thr inside of the cormer panels. Adding the panels in 3 different lots ( 4 at a time ) I had several months to hear the difference in sound and each time it made easily as much difference as adding a second sub. Also for me moving my listening position made significantly more difference than moving the subs. If you're in a null related to the room dimensions in your listening position then sub placement doesn't do much, same with a huge bass buildup close to the back wall.
@@dalechalfont112 Agreed multi sub is not an end all for every scenario, but its definitely an overlooked option which is incredibly effective and why I mentioned it as an option for the person who asked Paul the question. If you don't mind me asking, what did you use to align the subs? I highly recommend not using a receivers calibration software to align subs, unless its a trinnov. Mini DSP is an outstanding solution for the money to help balance out LFE issues with multiple subs. There is a ton of trial and error though
most people dont know how to use and set a sub..most i see are wrongly set way too high and stepping on the main speakers freq making a big sound mess
I love bass
A subwoofer doesn't work so well in a solid brick construction that is small, in America a lot of the walls are drywall bass go through it it doesn't Trap the bass
Subwoofers are not compatible with neighbours when the housing in Britain is often terraced or semi-detached. Also our rooms are smaller.
We like to use Cerwin Vegas in our builds for loudspeakers. They provide lows and pound in your chest bass that we like. No real need for a subwoofer.
Yes indeed RUclips Josef Hi-Fi Speakers
Enjoy
Bass traps are not always needed, I run hframe open baffle subs and lucky to have a big open area behind the listening position so no horrible resonance. Open baffle makes a huge difference, I used to run two IB subs and both peaks and nulls were a major issue with that setup. Open baffle is pretty smooth without EQ to below 30hz.
My room is very problematic with nasty bass resonance(s) (there he goes again). Can it be fixed? Possibly. Can I afford to get it fixed right? No. Should I move? I'd prefer not to, otherwise this is a decent and affordable apartment in a nice old neighborhood. Bass shy music is still infinitely better than no music.
Unless you are a complete purist, these days you can easily add DSP room correction devices to at least somewhat fix bass issues.
@@MAELOB No, just an incomplete one. Most of my listening is from chrome doughnuts, both red book and super audio. I'm currently using a pair of the SP-BS22-LR wonder puppies (very good from the mids up, not quite LS3/5a class of course, but not that far behind either; viva Andrew Jones, hero of audiophiles of all socio-economic strata!) on tallish stands with rolled up wool socks plugging the rear firing ports. A touch of roll off with the bass tone control finishes the job. Even these can excite the resonance at greater than moderate volumes. Side effect, no complaints from the other tenants. My little integrated amp has a tape monitor loop so it would not be difficult to insert a ADC/DSP/DAC into and out of the signal path as desired. Do you have any recommendations that are affordable by mere mortals? This is not an area of knowledge beyond the existence of such devices for me.
@Fat Rat He has presented a proposal, but it is way, waayyy above my (non)pay grade. Reproducing Robert Harley's listening room (TAS #293) and building a house around it on land that I'd have to acquire would be much cheaper. Prof. don't give it away. "Not now. Not Ever! [loud, shrill voice font on] NEVER!!!" [loud, shrill voice font off] -- Andy Williams
@Fat Rat Wait, did I say that out loud? I'm sorry sir! Please don't . . .
-- off line --
Why gives it so much Qualitidiffernce between good Electricie Conducters or MLC Caps. Its right good Conection have a good Hold uptime. Its for right for real Watt the it can be take it the Wover or Bass and the complete Box.
the way I'm thinking about it is the subwoofer adds the low frequencies because they wouldn't be there at all if you didn't have one... but you have to tame the issues of the room once you add those low frequencies.
If the Brits on occasion buy a subwoofer, it's from BK electronics this company is run by ex REL employees
LOL! No, don't laugh: it's probably true!
Don’t call him Shirley!
"Don’t call him Shirley!" Surely not!
Five minutes, could have been one. And you could have explained 'bass traps' are to remove past bass, remove bass reverberation that lingers and clouds new sounds. we don't want echo, echo, echo.
So Paul you're always pushing REL subwoofers. I get it your friend owns the company and they do sound good with music. But in several conversations you have said that you would only make a servo controlled woofer. So I am a bit confused and to me you sound a little disingenious when you refer to REL instead of Rhythmik. What gives?
@Fat Rat Thanks for reading his mind, I like the sound of them too. And yes there is more than that.
Nobody makes a multi-band sub-EQ. (you only need 5-6 bands) Not sure why this is. Most built-in sub-"controllers" are woefully inadequate for a typical room. I plan to build my own sub-EQ. It's a lot cheaper than building traps and/or room treatments and gives you 90% of the benefits. That's one thing EQ's do well..tame resonance peaks.
Check out miniDSP 2x4HD
These bass trap discussions give me a headache.
Bigger subs to begin with or even having 2 or 3 with large main speakers isn’t necessarily the way to go.
Better to start small or even borrow and test and evaluate.
I made the mistake of buying too large of a sub. It’s an M&K 2x12 version with 200w. One sub fires downward. I first out in the family room which wasn’t a very big room.
The thing is that I was already getting decent bass output from my bookshelf speakers.
I realized sub was way too much for the family room.
I moved the sub into the larger living room and it was great. Shakes the whole house. Crazy deep clean solid bass.
I moved from that old house and into a new home and out the M&K sub in the larger living room also. It worked out again. Same solid bass.
The smaller system is again the family room. At first I was only running the bookshelf speakers but I decided to add some small satellite speakers which came with a much smaller 8 in sub. It was perfect. Matches real nice with family room set up.
I’ve had it this way for over 15 years now.
No need for any bass traps.
Wow , big problems for audiophiles who are totally ignoring tone controls . They still don't have a clue what for are trebles and bass controls . Can't wait till "they" realize , oh we don't need a volume control anymore too !!! LOL
I like Paul McGowan, but I wish I could speed up the video by 5-fold. You can get great bass for audio (not TV and movies), by using a great speaker (passive of active) with a great preamp/source.
it appears you might not be aware... you *_can_* speed up the video.
the bottom right 'task bar' has a "gear" indicator for settings adjustments.
one of the options in there is *PLAYBACK SPEED*
To realise the full potential of a decent high end subwoofer you absolutely MUST have a large room ....FACT !
Small rooms and decent bass don't and cannot exist
Wrong, Wrong, WRONG! Room dimensions affect sound and performance far more than room size. In fact, large, boxy, rectangular rooms are notorious for inducing standing waves. SYMPTOM: Bass comes and goes as you move around the room, and always sounds better out in the hallway. I have seen larger subwoofers work better in smaller rooms of say, 8 by 10 feet, than smaller subs in the same room. Again, standing waves and reflective interference patterns are of concern with woofers physically too small for the space, because smaller cones cannot move enough air to effectively swamp out the acoustics. This is why auditoriums will have a lot of absorptive surfaces, be carefully engineered for acoustics, and have Big, HUGE drivers in their woofers.
@@gyrgrls you're half right .. I agree !
Small rooms and large rooms ... always make for good technical debate !! All I know is that rooms that are small (viz: with dimensions less than a quarter of a wavelength at lowest frequencies) become pure pressure domains and yes ! bass is good no matter where you listen albeit somewhat " compressed " due to the volumetric constriction of the room .
The only way to hear good dynamic bass is outdoors .. or very large rooms with irregular shapes and vaulted ceilings .. like my listening room is ( it is a custom built pentagonal room on concrete floor with a 15' high vaulted ceiling ..
@Chris how come you say madame here and it says SIR on the email notification.... funny 😁
I like my SVS PB ULTRA 16
Bass trap? Never heard of such a thing until now. Looks rather dubious...
Rel are ok subs but I feel there over priced,SVS is what I have and I have owned both SVS are better subs by far
I ended up with RELs because they sounded better in a high power set up.
My HiFi dealer says RELs are very refined and sound great, but they're underpowered. He set up my 5.2 system with a pair of huge RBH dual 12" subs.
wow..
Wow what
@@jordantewari boring!
wow... I can almost hear Ben Stein quoted. Where's my tetrahydrozoline?
@@donpayne1040 Well a lot of his videos kind of are boring and not very educational
I have 3 subs, I'm in the uk
"I have 3 subs, I'm in the uk
" Man the torpedoes! I'm in the US Navy