love the name of your channel I may support you by subscribing to your channel, I have something I want to say, I work graveyard at a gym and I find it interesting how many people are 50 and over that goes to the gym regularly, I hear it because their doctor tells them to stay active and so on and It's obvious that they believe it to keep living as long as possible. And tonight I was thinking what if all these people who have a passion to extend their life through working out, had that same passion for like the quest of obtaining immortality.
How much of the effects from calorie restriction (CR) in mice actually comes from methionine restriction? Anybody aware of research comparing CR mice with CR mice without methionine restriction?
there has been studies comparing specific (I think methionine) restrictions Vs general restrictions. I recall they found partial diverging pathways between the two ways......
I always thought that the Glycine and Methionine ratio mattered alot. I simply take extra Glycine to counter the effects of Methionine. Glycine alone increases lifespan. Seems a very important amino.
it is Homocysteine (a Methionine metabolism byproduct) that is harmful, not the Methionine. B9 and B12 in methyl form as well as B6 convert Homocysteine back to Methionine and/or Gluthathione in the case of B6. So you don't need to restrict Methionine, rather you need to ensure sufficient B vitamin status.
Interesting analysis of protein vs biomarkers. Obviously i need to provide little more analysis and come back to you. First comments are: worked 40 yrs in pharma and work in mouse and many other animals have rarely extended into humans. 2) i read all 146 studies by Longo on lower protein and none of them have convinced me that lower protein is better 3) lower protein may lead to sarcopenia and I have many of my vegan friends to testify to this disease including osteoarthritis especially significant >60yrs old 4) i rather be strong and biking for the next 30 yrs rather than sitting in a wheelchair for the next 50 yrs. I would like to further review the video before providing additional questions and comments. Thanks again for the contribution
Yes, and as I mentioned at the end of the video, there is a balance between quality of life and protein intake (in re muscle mass). So I'm not looking to only optimize biomarkers, but also muscle mass and function. I don't see a reason why it can't be both-optimized muscle and longevity, especially if we're focusing on multiple systemic biomarkers.
Plant protein is significantly lower in methionine than animal protein. My current theory is it is optimal to eat a moderately high protein diet but mostly plant based. This will allow for sufficient protein for muscle growth and repair but keep methionine, sat fat, heme iron, and tmao low. Thoughts?
My current diet, which is based on optimizing multiple blood biomarkers is in line with that approach. It may not be like that for others, I can't say.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Ah, what percent protein do you get from animal vs plant? It would be interesting to see plant vs animal percentage effect on your biomarkers.
@@TheBwithers My current split is probably 70/30 plant/animal. I get ~20g/d from sardines, ~5g from yogurt, and a small amount from parmesan cheese. My average daily protein intake is currently 99g/d, so at least 70% from plants. At some point I may do a more specific analysis.
What do you think about supplementing with collagen, around 60g? Should be good for sleep, insulin sensitivity and making glutathione, not to mention recovery from workouts? Chris Mastherjohn is a big proponent of collagen/glycine
Thank you for the great video🙏🙏. The results also fit with the recommendations made by (among others) Valter Longo: approx. 0.8g protein per kg body weight - preferably from plant sources (which reduces the amount of BCAA ingested). Or have I misunderstood this? I was previously at about 100g protein at 80kg bodyweight, but also wanted to reduce it to 70-80g.🖖
Thanks Sebastian Niemann. Surprisingly, my data doesn't disagree with that protein amount, but note that it's not based on following the published studies in my case, but the story told by the biomarkers.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Absolutely. And it's great when studies and personal data are close together. I do a lot of tracking myself (not as detailed as you, of course) and am always happy when my experiences corellate with studies and other people's results. In this respect, your channel is really great and extremely interesting for me. Thank you for the fantastic work.
I was trying methionine restriction some yrs ago, but my intrest rose again. Methionine is not the only amino acid that may affect the the life lenght. Those days yrs ago I tried to increase muscles and took BCAA supplements. But also leucine is bad to health if want to live longer Now in the age of 80 and having my favourite sport sprint running 100 and 200 m, the body buildning is not actual any more. Thus I changed my diet to entirely vegan. This gives me possibility to again go to methione restriction and mainly to lower my cancer risks
Hopefully when in the future talking about Protein intake etc please use g/kg or similar to represent the amounts, or at the very least include your weight along with the daily gram totals so we can work it out for ourselves etc.... great work though its just hard look at your results in contrast to all the studies and literature when the measurement methods differ etc
Doc, what if it’s revealed that protein intake at 70 g, or perhaps even slightly lower, results in better blood biomarkers, but worse muscle mass/gains in the gym? The data I’ve seen, as well as remarks from noteworthy researchers and PhD‘s, all suggests that lower protein is highly correlated with longevity. I suppose my question is, are you willing to sacrifice physique for longevity if the numbers indicate that there is indeed a trade-off. Personally, I do think there is a trade-off between performance , (higher IGF-I), And longevity.
In a recent study by Iglay et al (38), 36 older men and women underwent 12 wk of resistance training in association with a lower protein (0.9 g protein·kg−1·d−1) or higher protein (1.2 g protein·kg−1·d−1) intake. Although all outcome measures improved (eg, increased strength, greater whole-body protein accretion, and reduced fat mass), there were no significant differences between the lower-protein and higher-protein groups. Similarly, Andrews et al (37) suggested that total daily protein intake (1.35 versus 0.72 g protein·kg−1·d−1) does not affect lean mass gains in the context of postexercise protein supplementation.
That's a great point. I'm interested in getting leaner, but I don't want to lose any muscle mass or function. Ha, I used to have a lot more mass, weighing ~170 lbs 10 years ago, so I've already sacrificed some muscle for the bigger picture in terms of health and/or longevity.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 78 g/day seven years ago may have been detrimental to healthy aging. "Dietary Protein Requirement Threshold and Micronutrients Profile in Healthy Older Women Based on Relative Skeletal Muscle Mass" "To maintain muscle mass and function, older women should consume ≥1.17 g/kg/d dietary protein" 1.17 x 70 kg = 81.9 g/kg/d
@@erastvandoren I have less than 70g protein on most days and have a pea protein powder after working out 3, 4 or so days a week which still keeps me under 100g a day. I'd say im pretty well built and lean at 70kg but im 28 so maybe it will get harder to maintain my frame as i get older
Yea this is the dilemma for many of us. Comes down to what's important to you. For me both are, so finding a balance between muscle and longevity is the goal, where I have a decent build but accepting that if I want to go about it in a balanced way, I'll have to somewhat adjust my perception of what I think a decent build is. Which I've done, few years ago I wouldn't be satisfied with the sort of physique I'm satisfied with today. Biggest factor in that change has been understanding the health and longevity aspects. Makes changing how you see your physical body happen almost naturally. Ultimately something malleable like perception should give way to something as important as longevity, not vice versa.
The difficulty of course is to maintain muscle mass to avoid sarcopenia while reducing the negative effect on longevity of mTOR and methionine. What strategy could be used for that? You made a previous video about the microbiome being important to maintain muscle mass, so it might be a way. Also, would increasing glutathione at least partially neutralize the negative effects of methionine and mTOR? Glutathione reduces AGEs, lowers homocysteine, decreases inflammation, so decreases CVD and other issues, and is anti-carcinogenic. The problem though is that I think it decreases autophagy, so this would have to be solved one way or another. It also helps for DNA repair and is good for mitochondria. So should we consider the cysteine/methionine ratio also, and not just methionine in the diet? In that case, some proteins that boost glutathione like whey could be better than other animal protein sources. And of course plant foods with no proteins, like garlic, broccoli sprouts, cabbage that boost glutathione should be a considered. In other words, try to clean up the mess done by methionine and BCAAs, including mTOR activation, rather than reducing reducing the animal proteins, in order to maintain more muscle mass.
the issue isnt so much Protein its the Amnio constituents in there proportions for example Lysine is primary for mTOR activation and lower Methonine is important for reducing cancer risk so the protein sources you want need higher % of lysine but lower % of methionine and that means ether supplemental or vegetable/legume sources to get that kind of proportionality... so 80grams of protein that has 5g of lysine but 0.9g of methione will be better then 100grams with 4.5g lysine and 1.8g of methonine in relation to longevity or staving off Sarcopenia etc
It's interesting how the graph for both mice and rat 'opens up' at mid life span. I wonder if a human graph will show the same and I wonder if as we age, particularly mid life, we should really be cutting back on protein (meat) consumption.
What do you mean by 'opens up'? I think a carnivore diet gets the job done for a typical person for a typical lifespan. I think there is more room for optimization in a vegan diet to get atypical results. Dr. David Sinclair is vegan now as well.
@@adambanks382 If you you at the x axis the control and the methionine graph only start to separate at mid age for both the mice and rat. So I’m just wondering if there should be a ‘different kind of food’ at mid or older age.
Would you expect that protein requirement per kg of body weight should be higher if addressing sarcopenia? Would recovering from this muscle loss be at the cost of accelerated cellular aging thus reducing lifespan?
The protein requirement is likely individual and based on activity levels. I'm not a fan of general recommendations, but in contrast, tracking objective biomarkers to help address the question. So a better approach would be the biomarkers plus measures of muscle or lean mass like DXA, CT, or MRI. There's definitely a balance between protein intake, muscle mass, quality of life/functional independence, and longevity. Sorting that out is key (at least to me).
Have you found any literature suggesting optimal methionine intake for humans for longevity? I read some stuff suggesting that men need something like 1200mg per day. But I've also seen lower amounts suggested for methionine restriction diets intended to address some sort of disease that I didn't look into and don't remember. Additionally I was wondering if you had Intel on whether methionine was the critical element of protein restrictions benefit, or whether there was any literature pointing to other amino acids in particular. I also have intention to gain as much muscle mass and strength as possible before the natural decline of both begins, so if it is specifically methionine that is an issue, it'll be a lot easier to achieve that goal. I whipped up a diet plan at my current maintainance calories that could provide 123 grams of protein per day but average only 1000mg methionine per day. Red lentils are amazing for this. Have you tracked your methionine intake over this period? Were your protein sources consistent in their methionine concentration? Thanks! Loving the content. Your goals, methodology and presentation are all right up my alley. Oh, also I wanted to run a concept by you that I have incorporated in hopes it will maximize my effective use of what proteins I do eat so i can minimize total protein intake. I have heard that muscle protein synthesis occurs (for most people) within 48 hours of workout. This period is when it is important to get adequate protein. So the hack of sorts I came up with would be to do a split like this: Monday push legs, Tuesday pull peripherals, Wednesday push legs, Thursday pull peripherals, friday-sunday rest. This way only weekdays would warrant protein intake beyond the minimum nutritional recommendations which are somewhere in the 40-50g range for men at my bodyweight. Is this a reasonable method? In essence this brings my average protein intake to 100 g/day even though I'm getting 23 more than that all days of anabolic consequence. Ok that's it. I'd really appreciate your thoughts.
Hey Jack Ester, the best way to address that would be RCTs for methionine restriction (MR) in people. So far, there are only 3 such studies: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22methionine+restriction%22&filter=pubt.randomizedcontrolledtrial&sort=date&size=200 Interestingly, one of the mechanisms for how MR may impact lifespan involves bile acids. Some of that will be in my next video!
This is not really on topic, but I found the result of this mouse study to be odd, as did the authors of the paper. Though reducing protein might be one way to inhibit MTOR, I have never seen a study where protein reduction stimulated or maintained more muscle mass. I did not read the paper below, so I am not sure how they went about partially inhibiting MTOR. "Furthermore, partial inhibition of the mTORC1 pathway counteracted sarcopenia, as determined by observing an increase in muscle mass and fiber type cross-sectional area in select muscle groups, again surprising because mTORC1 signaling has been shown to be required for skeletal muscle mass gains in some models of hypertrophy" See: Partial Inhibition of mTORC1 in Aged Rats Counteracts the Decline in Muscle Mass and Reverses Molecular Signaling Associated with Sarcopenia. Mol Cell Biol. 2019 Sep
have you tried limiting only methionine while maintaining protein intake? Such as with more broths? Also please note that plant foods are rated as poor sources of aminos because of low methionine content but , may that this may be a reason for their healthfulness. Finally, i would like to say that high homocysteine is actually correlated with heart disease and also a byproduct of methionine not being properly metabolized.
Great subject Michael. This has always been my greatest interest. Quality vs quantity. Living to a 100 as a lion or 120 feeble and broken. It's like the marathoners, the Kenyans finish in a sprint and then you have those who crawl to then and end up in the medical tent. Stephen
So how would someone who's quite low in weight already maintain weight all the while cutting or reducing high methionine foods. I have got issues too and can sometimes only stomach certain foods but worried about to9 much weight loss. Are all nuts high in methionine or are macadamia nuts ok? How about flax. Am I right in believing lamb chicken and fish eggs and dairy products are high in methionine? Any advice would be gravely appreciated
The point of the video is not to promote MR, but how to assess how much protein (which is related to MR) may be optimal based on blood biomarker analysis.
Another fascinating video. I find your slogan" Conquer Aging Or Die Trying!" really inspiring and motivating. Anyway, the joy and the pleasure are in the journey and the pursuit, and less in the goal. The seeking is the reward. Just curious to know what could be the impact of limiting your intake to only 0.8 gr/day and taking sardines only 2 or 3 times per week ?
Thanks Abdelilah BENAHMED! 0.8g of protein/d would be low for me (~55g/d), as I lift weights and am active. Also, sardines have a net positive correlative (+1) effect on the big picture biomarkers, so reducing its intake wouldn't be a good idea. I've cut my Whey protein intake in half (10 - 5g) for the upcoming blood test on 5/9-overall protein intake is 99g/d, a small cut from last test's 103g/d.
@@Finnfreya1 Not yet on that video, but it's 1x/3d for a whole-body workout with weights, flexibility, balance, etc. Then on the other days, lots of walking and/or HIIT onthe treadmill or bike. I talk about that more on Patreon, where I post my daily data for HRV, RHR, and overall activity (average daily HR)
Some thoughts: Dr. Barry Sears in his Zone Diet gives protein recommendations based on lean body weight (I note they have varied slightly over time, but are around) 100 g/day for 150# as I recall, and he then gears carb intake to that, roughly 1.5 g total carbs per gram of protein, personalized (might be better at 1.25 ratio) on a per meal basis. He says this balances insulin and glucagon for blood sugar control. Also wonder if one's genetic MTHFR status could play any role in general protein or specifically methionine requirements. I wonder because I have learned that I have both of the common methylation polymorphisms and am experimenting with SAM-e, not for depression but for liver and joints. Any thoughts on this?
I'm not a fan of general recommendations, even if it's based on large population-based studies. In contrast, all published studies need to evaluated at the individual level to see what works and what doesn't, and is a major focus of this channel.
I wonder if I follow up to test like this could look at SAMe. Companies like life extension once lautted the benefits of this molecule but recently I saw some test that win against the grain and said that this causes issues with lifespan and health.
Wouldn't getting a majority of protein from legumes reduce methionine while possibly keeping protein higher? And wouldn't the added fiber and antioxidants as well as lowering of saturated fat improve many blood markers? Would be interesting to test.
Some people can have issues with the amount of fiber (someone reported them at 40g per day). 100 g of red lentils has 24g protein and 13 g fiber. Scaling that up to over 80 g protein per day means a lot of fiber, which needs to be taken away from somewhere, e.g. whole wheat food, vegetable etc. You could skip the whole thing though by just taking lentil protein powder.
Michael, Is there a website that has the various blood marker levels by age, by sex that you showed - especially for the 19 blood markers in the Aging.AI test? Or did you pull them one by one from various studies, etc.?
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Will do. Also, what was your weight when you did the most recent blood test while eating 103 g of protein per day - what was you protein g / kg body weight?
@@Finnfreya1 I agree plant based is excellent, but that the bio availability of plant protein is less and ur stimulates less mTor which means you canhavs more protein per kg of body weight without the negatives effects of excess animal protein. I think the research was in PubMed and Journal of Nature
Eating lower overall protein will reduce methionine. That said, the point of the video is to determine how much protein may be optimal based on analysis of big picture biomarkers.
Well, I recently added a little more animal protein in my diet through yogurt. My diet is mostly plant protein and I take a pea protein drink (20 grams of protein) just to have my protein number close to 100 grams at 185lbs. Being vegetarian with eating dairy and eggs sparingly makes it easy to keep protein levels low. The bulk of my protein comes from nuts, seeds, vegetables, and fruits, none of which are rich protein sources. My goal is just to maintain muscle mass and strength. I don't mind increases, but I don't feel I need them.
I made a chart of protein sources breaking down amino acid %. Eggs are 2nd highest in methionine (2nd only to rice protein, which I avoid), and beef is 3rd highest. Lentils are lowest, followed by pea protein powder and then soy protein powder. For glycine (which you want) Beef, lentils and pea protein are highest, in that order. Milk is lowest. Dairy always seems to be worthless, healthwise. Obviously, eating the minimal overall protein (and mostly plant based) to maintain muscle mass is ideal for anti-aging. But people forget that the body produces it's own non-essential amino acids (+ taurine), and the non-essentials seem beneficial whereas the essential ones, like methionine and leucine, seem to increase aging. Non-essentials are produced in the human body from glucose + exercise... So it doesn't really work to plug protein intake into cronometer and supplement accordingly. It's best to just get the minimum that you feel right, and maybe eat a little more protein on days you work out. Lentils are just so damn optimal in every way, and can be made in a rice cooker without soaking. These days, I add lentils to smoothies and oatmeal. It controls blood sugar spikes and is the cheapest protein source... practically free in fact.
@@60-Is-The-New-30 It is troublesome that simple controls have not been reported. The complexity of lifespan is mind boggling. There are theoretical reasons for suggesting methionine might be an issue. In eukaryotes methionine is the first amino acid in protein biosynthesis and having too much of it might be a signal that drives some kind of dis-regulation.And yet it could be that the Blue Zones have diets that correct for this. But one would think that this could be studied simply and directly. I find myself questioning everything I think I know...
A very provocative video, as always. I do not agree with analysis that relies on counting the number big picture biomarkers going in a healthy direction and comparing it to the number going in an unhealthy direction. I learned from using the PhenoAge spreadsheet that RDW and glucose were the two most heavily weighted biomarkers. In my personal strategy, I focus on optimizing RDW and glucose and let the minor players take a back seat.
Your strategy of focusing on the optimization of RDW and glucose is interesting, especially if you also take into account the level of creatinine, but the real problem is still here : how could you optimize easily the RDW which is perhaps impacted by numerous factors ?
@@abdelilahbenahmed4350 Good question with no easy answer. Currently, I am viewing increased RDW as an indication that something else (that is not directly measured in the PhenoAge calculation) is veering away from optimal. For instance, HbAC1 is absent from PhenoAge (surprisingly). Yet, RDW is associated with higher Glycosylated Hemoglobin (HbA1c) in the elderly. Similarly, increased RDW is associated with inflammation in Alzheimer's disease. In addition, RDW has been shown to be a prognostic indicator of severe COVID-19.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Or maybe not. I learn from your videos. I am still focused on the most heavily weighted components of the PhenoAge clock.
I'm not a rat, obviously, but methionine makes 0.17-0.19% of my energy intake. Plant-based whole-food low-fat. Protein comes from lentils, peas, nuts, grains and veggies.
Hi Erast, MR is just the opening slide-most of the video goes into detail about how to know (the approach) what level of protein intake may be optimal for health, and potentially longevity.
The correlation of total protein intake with longevity markers isn't useful, as it's balancing the negative effects of methionin vs. the beneficial effects of other amino acids, and the result will heavily depend on the portion of methionine in that protein. Moreover, what the data reflect is not just your protein intake, but the specific foods you have chosen to obtain that protein and all the other substances they bring along, which you provide no information about. Fortunately though, the methonin content varies greately among different types of protein, so we are able to control our methionin intake independently of other amino acids to see the benefits of both methionin restriction and plenty of good amino acids. Much to the dismay of many, this works by focussing on plants as the major source of proteins and this seems to be one of the reasons why plant protein consumption is associated with positive health outcomes, while animal protein cunsumtion is associated with negative health outcomes even after correcting for other lifestyle factors.
I don't think Methionine, in and of itself, is the true offender. I believe that the true offender is the ratio of Methionine to Glycine. There's no way I'm gonna limit a nutrient that makes me a better performer, just for the sake of living a few more years. Eat more Glycine and enjoy life to it's fullest!
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 All protein is not created equal. Plant-based protein is not as efficient or complete as animal protein. Your results and conclusions are truly N=1.
@@rfbead321 The main point of the video is not to say everyone should eat my protein intake, but to use objective markers of health to determine what's optimal at their own n=1 level.
@@jasonbrice9921 If you're saying less than 50g/d of protein/d, and correspondingly less methionine, then yes, I probably agree. A main point of the video is to track biomarkers, whether blood-based and/or muscle mass and or function, to determine how much protein is optimal. I carefully track my fitness (CV metrics, strength, etc), and there is no drop-off over the past few years.
Awesome video, Doc. Love the rebrand with the new channel name.
Thanks K J!
Excellent analysis. Again, appreciate very much your efforts here.
Thanks theedevil08!
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 The new name is funny. My guess is that you will die trying, but I am rooting for you.
Thanks@@jackbuaer3828, and ha, we'll see if I die trying!
love the name of your channel I may support you by subscribing to your channel, I have something I want to say, I work graveyard at a gym and I find it interesting how many people are 50 and over that goes to the gym regularly, I hear it because their doctor tells them to stay active and so on and It's obvious that they believe it to keep living as long as possible. And tonight I was thinking what if all these people who have a passion to extend their life through working out, had that same passion for like the quest of obtaining immortality.
Thanks Just Tekina, and I totally agree.
How much of the effects from calorie restriction (CR) in mice actually comes from methionine restriction? Anybody aware of research comparing CR mice with CR mice without methionine restriction?
I'm not sure, but that's a good point, I'll look into it further!
there has been studies comparing specific (I think methionine) restrictions Vs general restrictions.
I recall they found partial diverging pathways between the two ways......
IIRC, I've heard Dr Michael Greger say in one of his videos that entire benefit from CR can be attributed to just Methionine and Leucine restriction.
I always thought that the Glycine and Methionine ratio mattered alot. I simply take extra Glycine to counter the effects of Methionine. Glycine alone increases lifespan. Seems a very important amino.
there was a recent study showing that glycine didn't counteract the methionine as hypothesized (sorry, I don't have the reference)
Plant-based diet naturally gives me a GLY:MET ratio of 4:1. And methionine intake of under 0.2% of energy.
I take glycine with my animal protein. Still try to reduce protein but on the occasions you eat it glycine is a good idea
it is Homocysteine (a Methionine metabolism byproduct) that is harmful, not the Methionine. B9 and B12 in methyl form as well as B6 convert Homocysteine back to Methionine and/or Gluthathione in the case of B6. So you don't need to restrict Methionine, rather you need to ensure sufficient B vitamin status.
@@jhfgjtjutyiuod not true. There's more to methionine's harmful effect than just homocysteine.
Interesting analysis of protein vs biomarkers. Obviously i need to provide little more analysis and come back to you. First comments are: worked 40 yrs in pharma and work in mouse and many other animals have rarely extended into humans. 2) i read all 146 studies by Longo on lower protein and none of them have convinced me that lower protein is better 3) lower protein may lead to sarcopenia and I have many of my vegan friends to testify to this disease including osteoarthritis especially significant >60yrs old 4) i rather be strong and biking for the next 30 yrs rather than sitting in a wheelchair for the next 50 yrs. I would like to further review the video before providing additional questions and comments. Thanks again for the contribution
Yes, and as I mentioned at the end of the video, there is a balance between quality of life and protein intake (in re muscle mass). So I'm not looking to only optimize biomarkers, but also muscle mass and function. I don't see a reason why it can't be both-optimized muscle and longevity, especially if we're focusing on multiple systemic biomarkers.
Do you have an opinion as to why animal work rarely extends to humans?
@@adambanks382 I don't, but animal models are hypothesis generating-the best evidence is then obviously in people.
Plant protein is significantly lower in methionine than animal protein. My current theory is it is optimal to eat a moderately high protein diet but mostly plant based. This will allow for sufficient protein for muscle growth and repair but keep methionine, sat fat, heme iron, and tmao low. Thoughts?
My current diet, which is based on optimizing multiple blood biomarkers is in line with that approach. It may not be like that for others, I can't say.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Ah, what percent protein do you get from animal vs plant? It would be interesting to see plant vs animal percentage effect on your biomarkers.
@@TheBwithers My current split is probably 70/30 plant/animal. I get ~20g/d from sardines, ~5g from yogurt, and a small amount from parmesan cheese. My average daily protein intake is currently 99g/d, so at least 70% from plants. At some point I may do a more specific analysis.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 i have a similar ratio with plants / fatty fish. No dairy, but not for health reasons
What do you think about supplementing with collagen, around 60g? Should be good for sleep, insulin sensitivity and making glutathione, not to mention recovery from workouts? Chris Mastherjohn is a big proponent of collagen/glycine
Thank you for the great video🙏🙏. The results also fit with the recommendations made by (among others) Valter Longo: approx. 0.8g protein per kg body weight - preferably from plant sources (which reduces the amount of BCAA ingested). Or have I misunderstood this? I was previously at about 100g protein at 80kg bodyweight, but also wanted to reduce it to 70-80g.🖖
Thanks Sebastian Niemann. Surprisingly, my data doesn't disagree with that protein amount, but note that it's not based on following the published studies in my case, but the story told by the biomarkers.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Absolutely. And it's great when studies and personal data are close together. I do a lot of tracking myself (not as detailed as you, of course) and am always happy when my experiences corellate with studies and other people's results. In this respect, your channel is really great and extremely interesting for me. Thank you for the fantastic work.
I was trying methionine restriction some yrs ago, but my intrest rose again.
Methionine is not the only amino acid that may affect the the life lenght. Those days yrs ago I tried to increase muscles and took BCAA supplements. But also leucine is bad to health if want to live longer
Now in the age of 80 and having my favourite sport sprint running 100 and 200 m, the body buildning is not actual any more.
Thus I changed my diet to entirely vegan.
This gives me possibility to again go to methione restriction and mainly to lower my cancer risks
Sorry my English has detoriated living 10 yrs in Colombia
Hopefully when in the future talking about Protein intake etc please use g/kg or similar to represent the amounts, or at the very least include your weight along with the daily gram totals so we can work it out for ourselves etc.... great work though its just hard look at your results in contrast to all the studies and literature when the measurement methods differ etc
Definitely, will do.
Doc, what if it’s revealed that protein intake at 70 g, or perhaps even slightly lower, results in better blood biomarkers, but worse muscle mass/gains in the gym? The data I’ve seen, as well as remarks from noteworthy researchers and PhD‘s, all suggests that lower protein is highly correlated with longevity. I suppose my question is, are you willing to sacrifice physique for longevity if the numbers indicate that there is indeed a trade-off. Personally, I do think there is a trade-off between performance , (higher IGF-I), And longevity.
In a recent study by Iglay et al (38), 36 older men and women underwent 12 wk of resistance training in association with a lower protein (0.9 g protein·kg−1·d−1) or higher protein (1.2 g protein·kg−1·d−1) intake. Although all outcome measures improved (eg, increased strength, greater whole-body protein accretion, and reduced fat mass), there were no significant differences between the lower-protein and higher-protein groups. Similarly, Andrews et al (37) suggested that total daily protein intake (1.35 versus 0.72 g protein·kg−1·d−1) does not affect lean mass gains in the context of postexercise protein supplementation.
That's a great point. I'm interested in getting leaner, but I don't want to lose any muscle mass or function. Ha, I used to have a lot more mass, weighing ~170 lbs 10 years ago, so I've already sacrificed some muscle for the bigger picture in terms of health and/or longevity.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 78 g/day seven years ago may have been detrimental to healthy aging.
"Dietary Protein Requirement Threshold and Micronutrients Profile in Healthy Older Women Based on Relative Skeletal Muscle Mass"
"To maintain muscle mass and function, older women should consume ≥1.17 g/kg/d dietary protein"
1.17 x 70 kg = 81.9 g/kg/d
@@erastvandoren I have less than 70g protein on most days and have a pea protein powder after working out 3, 4 or so days a week which still keeps me under 100g a day. I'd say im pretty well built and lean at 70kg but im 28 so maybe it will get harder to maintain my frame as i get older
Yea this is the dilemma for many of us. Comes down to what's important to you. For me both are, so finding a balance between muscle and longevity is the goal, where I have a decent build but accepting that if I want to go about it in a balanced way, I'll have to somewhat adjust my perception of what I think a decent build is. Which I've done, few years ago I wouldn't be satisfied with the sort of physique I'm satisfied with today. Biggest factor in that change has been understanding the health and longevity aspects. Makes changing how you see your physical body happen almost naturally. Ultimately something malleable like perception should give way to something as important as longevity, not vice versa.
Wonderful Channel. Now I know how the people who found gold mines in old ages felt after their discovery. Eureka.
The difficulty of course is to maintain muscle mass to avoid sarcopenia while reducing the negative effect on longevity of mTOR and methionine. What strategy could be used for that? You made a previous video about the microbiome being important to maintain muscle mass, so it might be a way. Also, would increasing glutathione at least partially neutralize the negative effects of methionine and mTOR? Glutathione reduces AGEs, lowers homocysteine, decreases inflammation, so decreases CVD and other issues, and is anti-carcinogenic. The problem though is that I think it decreases autophagy, so this would have to be solved one way or another. It also helps for DNA repair and is good for mitochondria.
So should we consider the cysteine/methionine ratio also, and not just methionine in the diet? In that case, some proteins that boost glutathione like whey could be better than other animal protein sources. And of course plant foods with no proteins, like garlic, broccoli sprouts, cabbage that boost glutathione should be a considered.
In other words, try to clean up the mess done by methionine and BCAAs, including mTOR activation, rather than reducing reducing the animal proteins, in order to maintain more muscle mass.
Each of the variables that you mentioned can be compared against the blood biomarkers, to see if/how much may be optimal.
the issue isnt so much Protein its the Amnio constituents in there proportions for example Lysine is primary for mTOR activation and lower Methonine is important for reducing cancer risk so the protein sources you want need higher % of lysine but lower % of methionine and that means ether supplemental or vegetable/legume sources to get that kind of proportionality... so 80grams of protein that has 5g of lysine but 0.9g of methione will be better then 100grams with 4.5g lysine and 1.8g of methonine in relation to longevity or staving off Sarcopenia etc
Can you go over the life extending benefit of glycine and cistine? Date more Anderson mal tendons, cartridge etcetera like our ancesto!
It's interesting how the graph for both mice and rat 'opens up' at mid life span. I wonder if a human graph will show the same and I wonder if as we age, particularly mid life, we should really be cutting back on protein (meat) consumption.
What do you mean by 'opens up'? I think a carnivore diet gets the job done for a typical person for a typical lifespan. I think there is more room for optimization in a vegan diet to get atypical results. Dr. David Sinclair is vegan now as well.
@@adambanks382 If you you at the x axis the control and the methionine graph only start to separate at mid age for both the mice and rat. So I’m just wondering if there should be a ‘different kind of food’ at mid or older age.
Would you expect that protein requirement per kg of body weight should be higher if addressing sarcopenia? Would recovering from this muscle loss be at the cost of accelerated cellular aging thus reducing lifespan?
The protein requirement is likely individual and based on activity levels. I'm not a fan of general recommendations, but in contrast, tracking objective biomarkers to help address the question. So a better approach would be the biomarkers plus measures of muscle or lean mass like DXA, CT, or MRI.
There's definitely a balance between protein intake, muscle mass, quality of life/functional independence, and longevity. Sorting that out is key (at least to me).
Have you found any literature suggesting optimal methionine intake for humans for longevity? I read some stuff suggesting that men need something like 1200mg per day. But I've also seen lower amounts suggested for methionine restriction diets intended to address some sort of disease that I didn't look into and don't remember. Additionally I was wondering if you had Intel on whether methionine was the critical element of protein restrictions benefit, or whether there was any literature pointing to other amino acids in particular. I also have intention to gain as much muscle mass and strength as possible before the natural decline of both begins, so if it is specifically methionine that is an issue, it'll be a lot easier to achieve that goal. I whipped up a diet plan at my current maintainance calories that could provide 123 grams of protein per day but average only 1000mg methionine per day. Red lentils are amazing for this. Have you tracked your methionine intake over this period? Were your protein sources consistent in their methionine concentration? Thanks! Loving the content. Your goals, methodology and presentation are all right up my alley. Oh, also I wanted to run a concept by you that I have incorporated in hopes it will maximize my effective use of what proteins I do eat so i can minimize total protein intake. I have heard that muscle protein synthesis occurs (for most people) within 48 hours of workout. This period is when it is important to get adequate protein. So the hack of sorts I came up with would be to do a split like this: Monday push legs, Tuesday pull peripherals, Wednesday push legs, Thursday pull peripherals, friday-sunday rest. This way only weekdays would warrant protein intake beyond the minimum nutritional recommendations which are somewhere in the 40-50g range for men at my bodyweight. Is this a reasonable method? In essence this brings my average protein intake to 100 g/day even though I'm getting 23 more than that all days of anabolic consequence. Ok that's it. I'd really appreciate your thoughts.
Hey Jack Ester, the best way to address that would be RCTs for methionine restriction (MR) in people. So far, there are only 3 such studies:
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%22methionine+restriction%22&filter=pubt.randomizedcontrolledtrial&sort=date&size=200
Interestingly, one of the mechanisms for how MR may impact lifespan involves bile acids. Some of that will be in my next video!
This is not really on topic, but I found the result of this mouse study to be odd, as did the authors of the paper. Though reducing protein might be one way to inhibit MTOR, I have never seen a study where protein reduction stimulated or maintained more muscle mass.
I did not read the paper below, so I am not sure how they went about partially inhibiting MTOR.
"Furthermore, partial inhibition of the mTORC1 pathway counteracted sarcopenia, as determined by observing an increase in muscle mass and fiber type cross-sectional area in select muscle groups, again surprising because mTORC1 signaling has been shown to be required for skeletal muscle mass gains in some models of hypertrophy"
See: Partial Inhibition of mTORC1 in Aged Rats Counteracts the Decline in Muscle Mass and Reverses Molecular Signaling Associated with Sarcopenia. Mol Cell Biol. 2019 Sep
have you tried limiting only methionine while maintaining protein intake? Such as with more broths? Also please note that plant foods are rated as poor sources of aminos because of low methionine content but , may that this may be a reason for their healthfulness. Finally, i would like to say that high homocysteine is actually correlated with heart disease and also a byproduct of methionine not being properly metabolized.
Hey virajs, I haven't. Other than limiting overall protein intake, it's a major challenge to reduce methionine within overall protein intake.
Great subject Michael. This has always been my greatest interest. Quality vs quantity. Living to a 100 as a lion or 120 feeble and broken. It's like the marathoners, the Kenyans finish in a sprint and then you have those who crawl to then and end up in the medical tent. Stephen
So how would someone who's quite low in weight already maintain weight all the while cutting or reducing high methionine foods. I have got issues too and can sometimes only stomach certain foods but worried about to9 much weight loss.
Are all nuts high in methionine or are macadamia nuts ok? How about flax.
Am I right in believing lamb chicken and fish eggs and dairy products are high in methionine?
Any advice would be gravely appreciated
The point of the video is not to promote MR, but how to assess how much protein (which is related to MR) may be optimal based on blood biomarker analysis.
Another fascinating video.
I find your slogan" Conquer Aging Or Die Trying!" really inspiring and motivating. Anyway, the joy and the pleasure are in the journey and the pursuit, and less in the goal. The seeking is the reward.
Just curious to know what could be the impact of limiting your intake to only 0.8 gr/day and taking sardines only 2 or 3 times per week ?
Thanks Abdelilah BENAHMED! 0.8g of protein/d would be low for me (~55g/d), as I lift weights and am active. Also, sardines have a net positive correlative (+1) effect on the big picture biomarkers, so reducing its intake wouldn't be a good idea. I've cut my Whey protein intake in half (10 - 5g) for the upcoming blood test on 5/9-overall protein intake is 99g/d, a small cut from last test's 103g/d.
@@Finnfreya1 April average = 152.3 lbs
@@Finnfreya1 Not yet on that video, but it's 1x/3d for a whole-body workout with weights, flexibility, balance, etc. Then on the other days, lots of walking and/or HIIT onthe treadmill or bike. I talk about that more on Patreon, where I post my daily data for HRV, RHR, and overall activity (average daily HR)
How do you make this imagens for apresentation? Do you use use program?
The images are from scientific publications. I create the presentation in PPT, nothing special!
is .17 percent methionine the equivalent of 7 grams in a human diet?
I'm not following this. What does the number ".39" have to do with glucose? As a mater of fact, I don't understand any of these values. What are they?
I detailed that in my last video, see 5:11 below
ruclips.net/video/ujpBbAWQ0fg/видео.html
What is Methionine?
Some thoughts: Dr. Barry Sears in his Zone Diet gives protein recommendations based on lean body weight (I note they have varied slightly over time, but are around) 100 g/day for 150# as I recall, and he then gears carb intake to that, roughly 1.5 g total carbs per gram of protein, personalized (might be better at 1.25 ratio) on a per meal basis. He says this balances insulin and glucagon for blood sugar control.
Also wonder if one's genetic MTHFR status could play any role in general protein or specifically methionine requirements. I wonder because I have learned that I have both of the common methylation polymorphisms and am experimenting with SAM-e, not for depression but for liver and joints. Any thoughts on this?
I'm not a fan of general recommendations, even if it's based on large population-based studies. In contrast, all published studies need to evaluated at the individual level to see what works and what doesn't, and is a major focus of this channel.
Watch youtube video "Scientists close to reversing ageing" from 2014. Stephen Simpson shows there that more carbs and less protein = longer life.
ruclips.net/video/x0-Jt7az-54/видео.html
I wonder if I follow up to test like this could look at SAMe. Companies like life extension once lautted the benefits of this molecule but recently I saw some test that win against the grain and said that this causes issues with lifespan and health.
Any more info you can share? I've been taking this for joint-health and brain-fog...
200mg SAMe has 75mg methionine. IMO SAMe would be at the lower end of the list of things, which I would restrict.
A simpler approach is to reduce methionine rich foods, rather than total protein.
Wouldn't getting a majority of protein from legumes reduce methionine while possibly keeping protein higher? And wouldn't the added fiber and antioxidants as well as lowering of saturated fat improve many blood markers? Would be interesting to test.
Some people can have issues with the amount of fiber (someone reported them at 40g per day). 100 g of red lentils has 24g protein and 13 g fiber. Scaling that up to over 80 g protein per day means a lot of fiber, which needs to be taken away from somewhere, e.g. whole wheat food, vegetable etc.
You could skip the whole thing though by just taking lentil protein powder.
@@thomasmuller1850 Some people but most can adapt to higher fiber.
Michael, Is there a website that has the various blood marker levels by age, by sex that you showed - especially for the 19 blood markers in the Aging.AI test?
Or did you pull them one by one from various studies, etc.?
Hi Terry, probably not, but if you search by name, I've covered most of them on my RUclips channel!
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Will do.
Also, what was your weight when you did the most recent blood test while eating 103 g of protein per day - what was you protein g / kg body weight?
@@terrymeland9989 1.48g/kg
153.4 lb average for the 49 day period that corresponded to my last test
103g of protein/d during that same period
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Thanks. I am the same weight and target 115 g of protein per day.
Thanks for the added info.
I have seen that protein requirements are higher if plant based or if consumed on a time restricted eating schedule such as 16:8. Do you agree?
I'm not sure, but tracking diet and biomarkers can potentially address that...
@@Finnfreya1 I agree plant based is excellent, but that the bio availability of plant protein is less and ur stimulates less mTor which means you canhavs more protein per kg of body weight without the negatives effects of excess animal protein.
I think the research was in PubMed and Journal of Nature
Would methylation reduce the homocysteine effect from consuming methionine?
I've looked into the homocysteine-epigenetic age story, but unfortunately there isn't much published data, so I'm not sure.
How do you restrict methionine because it's an essential amino acid and found in many foods?
Methionine is high in animal products and low in plant-based foods.
Thanks, unfortunately I will never give up eating meat because of all the other benefits.
Eating lower overall protein will reduce methionine. That said, the point of the video is to determine how much protein may be optimal based on analysis of big picture biomarkers.
Well, I recently added a little more animal protein in my diet through yogurt. My diet is mostly plant protein and I take a pea protein drink (20 grams of protein) just to have my protein number close to 100 grams at 185lbs. Being vegetarian with eating dairy and eggs sparingly makes it easy to keep protein levels low. The bulk of my protein comes from nuts, seeds, vegetables, and fruits, none of which are rich protein sources. My goal is just to maintain muscle mass and strength. I don't mind increases, but I don't feel I need them.
I made a chart of protein sources breaking down amino acid %.
Eggs are 2nd highest in methionine (2nd only to rice protein, which I avoid), and beef is 3rd highest. Lentils are lowest, followed by pea protein powder and then soy protein powder.
For glycine (which you want) Beef, lentils and pea protein are highest, in that order. Milk is lowest. Dairy always seems to be worthless, healthwise.
Obviously, eating the minimal overall protein (and mostly plant based) to maintain muscle mass is ideal for anti-aging.
But people forget that the body produces it's own non-essential amino acids (+ taurine), and the non-essentials seem beneficial whereas the essential ones, like methionine and leucine, seem to increase aging. Non-essentials are produced in the human body from glucose + exercise... So it doesn't really work to plug protein intake into cronometer and supplement accordingly. It's best to just get the minimum that you feel right, and maybe eat a little more protein on days you work out.
Lentils are just so damn optimal in every way, and can be made in a rice cooker without soaking. These days, I add lentils to smoothies and oatmeal. It controls blood sugar spikes and is the cheapest protein source... practically free in fact.
They should test simply giving doses of methionine as controls to see if the methionine is the true problem.
@@60-Is-The-New-30 It is troublesome that simple controls have not been reported. The complexity of lifespan is mind boggling. There are theoretical reasons for suggesting methionine might be an issue. In eukaryotes methionine is the first amino acid in protein biosynthesis and having too much of it might be a signal that drives some kind of dis-regulation.And yet it could be that the Blue Zones have diets that correct for this. But one would think that this could be studied simply and directly. I find myself questioning everything I think I know...
Does exercise have an effect on these numbers?
My workout program is a constant for many years, so likely not
A very provocative video, as always. I do not agree with analysis that relies on counting the number big picture biomarkers going in a healthy direction and comparing it to the number going in an unhealthy direction. I learned from using the PhenoAge spreadsheet that RDW and glucose were the two most heavily weighted biomarkers. In my personal strategy, I focus on optimizing RDW and glucose and let the minor players take a back seat.
Your strategy of focusing on the optimization of RDW and glucose is interesting, especially if you also take into account the level of creatinine, but the real problem is still here : how could you optimize easily the RDW which is perhaps impacted by numerous factors ?
Maybe your approach is better for longevity, we'll see!
@@abdelilahbenahmed4350 Good question with no easy answer. Currently, I am viewing increased RDW as an indication that something else (that is not directly measured in the PhenoAge calculation) is veering away from optimal. For instance, HbAC1 is absent from PhenoAge (surprisingly). Yet, RDW is associated with higher Glycosylated Hemoglobin (HbA1c) in the elderly. Similarly, increased RDW is associated with inflammation in Alzheimer's disease. In addition, RDW has been shown to be a prognostic indicator of severe COVID-19.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Or maybe not. I learn from your videos. I am still focused on the most heavily weighted components of the PhenoAge clock.
@@DPS0407 here is some helpful info about that from Dr Lustgarten. ruclips.net/video/_d0prokvH-s/видео.html
muscle mass likely negative correlettion w aging acceleration !
It's probably U-shaped, with both too little and too much being bad for longevity.
I'm not a rat, obviously, but methionine makes 0.17-0.19% of my energy intake. Plant-based whole-food low-fat. Protein comes from lentils, peas, nuts, grains and veggies.
Hi Erast, MR is just the opening slide-most of the video goes into detail about how to know (the approach) what level of protein intake may be optimal for health, and potentially longevity.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 Animal vs plants protein would be interesting.
@@erastvandoren Or the proportions of each.
@@erastvandoren I believe animal proteins have less negative effects because of the list of toxins that are in every single plant life.
@@tommyortiz6623 According to the science data, animal protein is consistently bad, plant protein equally consistently beneficial.
Low protein leads to muscle loss in old age. Less muscle more metabolic and mobility issues.
I don't doubt that-I'm looking for the balance between enough protein for muscle mass gains and longevity. That's the point of the video.
The correlation of total protein intake with longevity markers isn't useful, as it's balancing the negative effects of methionin vs. the beneficial effects of other amino acids, and the result will heavily depend on the portion of methionine in that protein. Moreover, what the data reflect is not just your protein intake, but the specific foods you have chosen to obtain that protein and all the other substances they bring along, which you provide no information about. Fortunately though, the methonin content varies greately among different types of protein, so we are able to control our methionin intake independently of other amino acids to see the benefits of both methionin restriction and plenty of good amino acids. Much to the dismay of many, this works by focussing on plants as the major source of proteins and this seems to be one of the reasons why plant protein consumption is associated with positive health outcomes, while animal protein cunsumtion is associated with negative health outcomes even after correcting for other lifestyle factors.
but with that small amount of protein per day, the muscle mass decreases faster...
How's my muscle mass on this approach?
twitter.com/mike_lustgarten/status/1516118759517347844/photo/1
What's your weight?
April's 30-day average was 152.3 lbs
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 what is your height?
I don't think Methionine, in and of itself, is the true offender. I believe that the true offender is the ratio of Methionine to Glycine. There's no way I'm gonna limit a nutrient that makes me a better performer, just for the sake of living a few more years. Eat more Glycine and enjoy life to it's fullest!
That's not the point of the video, it's evaluating how much protein may be optimal for health based on a data-driven approach at the n=1 level.
@@conqueragingordietrying1797 All protein is not created equal. Plant-based protein is not as efficient or complete as animal protein. Your results and conclusions are truly N=1.
Lowered methionine will not be noticed performance wise unless reduced to 0% but too high will affect mortality.
@@rfbead321 The main point of the video is not to say everyone should eat my protein intake, but to use objective markers of health to determine what's optimal at their own n=1 level.
@@jasonbrice9921 If you're saying less than 50g/d of protein/d, and correspondingly less methionine, then yes, I probably agree.
A main point of the video is to track biomarkers, whether blood-based and/or muscle mass and or function, to determine how much protein is optimal. I carefully track my fitness (CV metrics, strength, etc), and there is no drop-off over the past few years.