Paul Morphy is Not Strong: The Refutation | Mastering the Middlegame - GM Ben Finegold
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2016
- Grandmaster Ben Finegold can't believe that GM Friedel said that, if Paul Morphy were alive today, Morphy wouldn't have master strength. See the case for Morphy being one of the greatest ever.
2016.09.27
Paul Morphy vs Alexander Beaufort Meek, 1st American Chess Congress (1857): C00 French defence
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Paul Morphy vs Henri Baucher, blindfold simul (1858): C41 Philidor, exchange variation
www.chessgames.com/perl/chessg...
Saying Paul Morphy was not a strong chess player is like saying Archimedes was not a good Mathematician.
Yeah, I don't understand how anyone could say Morphy wasn't a master-level player. I would say he could compete with 2700-level players today if he was given time to learn modern theory.
Amen brother. discussion is over.
Stupid, small-minded people enjoy pushing geniuses aside. Such a pity.
To my mind, Morphy was not only one of the only true chess geniuses and the greatest player to ever live; Morphy was the first true world champion with the title of 'greatest player in the world', years before, having beaten pretty much everybody of the west almost completely with ease, clearly able to beat the first world chess champion, and having held records of 'first modern chess player', and having held the record in blindfold sims, but he was also one of the world's greatest geniuses of any field -- not just chess.
You may have all heard, by now, about Magnus being 'the Mozart of chess' -- no, no, Morphy was the Mozart of chess!
You have to take into account that the Internet is very USA biased. I suspect that he would not be in the top 30 Russian players of all time for example. But seriously. who cares. Just enjoy the games. I agree though Archimedes... definitely up there.
Exactly! Tens of thousands of college students become reasonably good at calculus every year, but only because Newton and Leibniz developed the techniques in the seventeenth century! Do we say that Newton and Leibniz weren't that great because college students can do that stuff now?
Why did you cut out the random rambling? It's not like we're here to learn chess. Everyone who watches these videos knows that their chess is hopeless, so we're here just for the rambling, which you cut out. Terrible!
bc it was trump rambling maybe
If it's jokes they shouldn't cut it out imo...
They should post an uncensored version
lol
SLCC so deluded they think we are here for any reason other than daddy finegold. Terrible!
"All 2100 players give blindfold simuls." I love this guy.
he is super funny
Yeah, mr Red Shirt is an idiot. Nuff said.
That's all they ever do.
@@SrinivashM29 Asa 2103 FIDE, I can comfirm that's all I ever do.
@tomekduresov706 sadly I'm a few hundred points lower but if I ever get there, that's what I'll do all day every day.
Never censor Ben.
Always censor Ben.
We don't know which one is easier!
Instead of censoring the video you should post a disclaimer:
The views and opinions expressed in this video are those of GM Finegold and do not
necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any member of the Chess Club and Scholastic Center in Saint Louis.
You really shouldn't censor the guy though. For real.
Terrible. Never censor Ben.
Fischer said Morphy was the most accurate chess player in history
Strong endorsement from another chess genius
i need to get a collection of Morphy games be good for my chess im sure
The current players are always the most accurate players. For example in 15 years the world number 1 will be playing better chess than the any player before that because of engines and preparation improving. Morphy wasn't even close to the most accurate. Every grandmaster today is more accurate than Morphy. Fischer was more accurate than Morphy since he was more modern than Morphy, but still no where guys today. That said, they were two of the most talented players ever, they just played in different times.
Paul Morphy may have been the #1 most advanced player to ever play chess; furthermore, Morphy may have been the most beautiful chess artist ever, and it was 8th World Champion Tal that said "Chess, first of all, is art."
Morphy may be the greatest genius in chess history.
No one can evaluate Morphy's level properly against today's standards. To pretend it can be done is beyond absurd.
Morphy learned the game as a child just by watching his father and uncle play. By 9 he was the strongest player in New Orleans.
He also *retired* at the age of 22 (!!!) after playing occasionally at a time before any of the chess theory that came in the last 150 years (!)
He was undoubtably the strongest player in the world in his time. That was one incredibly unusual *talent* .
The argument that Morphy would destroy Magnus is possibly just as silly as the argument that Morphy couldn't compete with modern chess players. Talent is as talent does, and Morphy laid the grounds for modern chess as it is
@@loganmyall660 Morphy would right up there with Magnus today because it only makes sense. In a world where Morphy's unique mind got the same exposure to chess ideals as Magnus he would be just as good same goes for Capablanca and other geniuses of the past theyd all be 2800 in this time and maybe in 200 years theres a person who is 3000 strength, Morphy would be 3000 in that time
Comparing eras is futile. There's no way to know. It is possible that he wouldn't be as good because chess requires some different skills today than 100 years ago. It doesn't matter what your talent level is, in this era of engines a player has no chance at the top level if they don't have both a strong memory and work ethic to study deep engine preparation. It's likely Morphy would be good but it's not a guarantee that he would be a top X player.
@@cwjalexx what if morphy learned modern theory?
It was almost alien-like the level he had.
So much of Ben's random rambling cut out... terrible
Abusing audience: OK
Random tangent: Censored
You got it!
lmfao
Chess Club and Scholastic Center of Saint Louis the editor is a neo con douchebag, is there somewhere i can watch these uncensored? the right leaning bias is pretty gross.
Particularly abusive to the "at home" audience in this one. Oh, and btw, I do believe I'm playing you on Chess.com right now!
@Daniel Burke The truth hurts.
Morphy was literally finding moves that engines can only find with a depth of 31, and he was making these calculations in less than 15 minutes. Enough said.
Not fifteen but less than five. In those days times only more than five were recorded. I believe there is only one instance of Morphy vs Paulsen where he took about twelve minutes. He usually blitzed which is quite fast even by today's standards.his opponents took a lot of time even hours which frustrated him.
Im a big morphy fan but lets not overexaggerate... nobody, ever can do that...
@@ryoma1412 Paul Morphy can
paul morphy was surely better than stockfish at depth 20, ye ye
@@ryoma1412 yeah it’s intuition. No one is calculating 30 moves deep with any reasonable amount of time, except maybe in end games
I love your comments about Morphy. It amazes me how people can downplay a guy who probably had more natural talent and creative genius than many of the players even in the 2000 range
Than all players maybe
The only reason I'm subscribed to this channel is Ben Finegold
Seirawan is worth too see also. And Akobian makes great videos sometimes too.
Ben is definitely the draw for me too. I enjoy Yasser and Schranz too, though.
I am not sure about Seirawan. I wouldn't subscribe to a Yasser channel.
Yes, subscribe at the begining of Finegold Season, unsubscribe at season finale.
theinstigatorr same
Sounds like Ben is getting censored every time he makes a Trump statement.
The censoring is so annoying ,_,
Good video. Hope Friedel sees it :)
Austin Smith Finegold is shook! Get with the program Ben we're MAKING AMERICA GREAT AGAIN
Ben isn't an idiot. He voted for Bernie.
I think we should have an entire politics themed chess lecture from Ben
> Ben isn't an idiot. He voted for Bernie.
Now there's a self contradicting statement.
Boooo for mister censor who ever did that
Which bu?
The rambling is the best part of these. Love the chess, love Ben! Leave it uncut :)
For sure don't edit Ben Finegold.. Every Finegold moment is a good moment.
Hey Ben Simon: HATEYA
Wtf I want to see ALL the video! let Ben say what ever he wants to say! please stop editing
the kids must be so mind fucked half the time listening to ben haha
This is not the kids class
Those kids should know better
THANK YOU BEN FINEGOLD for defending the honor of the great Paul Morphy! Saying Morphy would lose to an average player today is like saying Newton couldn't pass a current physics exam. There have been developments in Physics since Newton's time so he would have to spend some time LEARNING them in order to pass the test. But once he learned them, he would blow the doors off the average physics student.
If Paul Morphy came up today and had the same tools and research available to him that others players do, his undeniable genius would soon show and he would be one of the best if not the best. Ben is actually the best! Love your commentary, and your common sense!
Morphy was a great, great talent. If he lived today he would make use of all the tools that other current players use and that is the only fair way to think about it.
And with those tools he would be as good as Magnus. Its unfair to say hed be better and its disrespectful to say hed be worse
May be Greatest genius in history of chess.
@@camreesehe would be better than Magnus probably.
@@camreese We just have no idea how he would do, so it's not accurate to even try to compare him to Magnus. Chess is a completely different game today, and he would be a completely different player. You can't really accurately compare any past players to each other. It's even harder with a guy as far back as Morphy.
I hate that Grand Master Finegold was censored. I love his videos and love his humor!
@Truth Hertz You had to dig up a post from SIX years ago and that is the best you can come up with? *snicker* Wow.
@@Spiritbro77 What'd he say? lmao
@@lukasg4807 A disparaging remark about the orange madman...
why there are so many edits, we like ben's trash talking !! please don't remove them
These are super instructive games. Hard to believe these occurred so long ago and there is any doubt how great Morphy was.
lots of weird edits. very suspicious.
very trumpicius ;)
Finegold proves that chess and comedy are a perfect match!
YES!!!!!!! FRIDAY FRIDAY! Woot, Friday with ben, Life can't get any better. What creates happiness? "A good bank account, good digestion, and GM Ben Finegold".
BTW, don't ever edit what ben says or does. Ben is my chess guru, and his word his law. I am subscribed because of ben + chess... not chess by itself.
What people need to understand is Morphy a lot of times played troll openings and moves, like this game, on purpose. He was so far ahead of everyone else, he simply could do anything he wanted to. Against much tougher opposition, he'd adjust his moves according.
Ben Finegold is an awesome chess teacher. He is probably the only one I can listen too for longer than half an hour. Very interesting person
literally went to grab a beer as ben said someone at home went for a drink ben truly is a wizard KING BEN
Nice moving around, Ben. I especially liked your hands.
He was moving around because he is the rotating GM.
Obviously, Morphy had a fotographic memory, playing blinded 8 players simultaneous like this! Incredible!
To say Morphy was bad isnt even funny as part of a joke. Back in those days, every move after-say move 5 was like entering the frontier. Or, like my countryman Nansen, going towards the north pole on a pair of wooden skis having 500.000km^2 ahead of him nobody knew shit about. And Morphy does it blindfolded in a simultane game. As blindfolding and simu games mattered to him. That guy was just incredible. On an equal footing he would problably crush every GM today also
Good analogy.
I agree if you took many of the strongest GMS and put them in morphys time with the resources he had he would crush them and if you would be able to do the same and take more free and put him in our era he would probably be at least as good as Carlsen if not better
Imagine rising to the top of the chess scene, absolutely destroying every other master without the luxury of engines or even another master to train you, and then people start talking about how bad you are. No wonder Morphy quit chess.
It’s true I was there chilling wit my homeboy P. Morph and I got a notification for some new Finegold vid on my phonogram. And I was all like yo Morphs this dude talking hella smack dawg. And he peeped the lecture and quit chess he was so mad.
Who's this messing with the edit? Don't mess with mah Finegold
to say "morphy would be a 2100 player today" is about as phenomenally stupid as saying "ty cobb would be a double-A player today."
2100 level advanced level chess but morphy rating is so high 2700 edo
Morphy gave up as he already had beaten the best their was....he was limitied by the knowledge available of his time...had he continued or even really decided to pour himself into the chess as say fischer or many others have, we would have seen a monster. Just consider the thought
@@BigChunk4530 i think the point is that we *did* see a monster. a GOAT can only be measured against contemporaneous competition. with the possible and very brief exception of fischer, nobody dominated his peers the way morphy did.
Fischer knew how good Morphy was and I trust Fischers opinion over any idiots today. Also didn't Morphy have a near photgenic memory? I suspect hed be one of the best at remembering computer lines in todays age as well
No Trump jokes?! Very suspicious! ;)
We're very proud of Ben for remaining so politically neutral. Thanks for watching.
;)
Chess Club and Scholastic Center of Saint Louis Pathetic: actually *censoring* your only talented lecturer? Grow up
yeh. CCSCSL grow up. I want Ben videos without this nonsense 1000 cuts.
I don't see any problem in Ben being non-neutral. Also, his neutrality is nothing to be proud of even if that was the case! You could easily write a disclaimer under the video if that was really important to you. Your club is not bigger or more popular than Cavs and LeBron, right? Look what he did today.
defend morphy all you want, but i know a game where morphy was spotted a knight and got checkmated in 18 moves. it was Alonzo morphy, but still
Morphy formation (Nd2) popular after 75-80 years later
Im sooooo happy he's back!!!!!
Since Ben says he reads the comments.. Please, reupload your great videos that you had on your channel!
Ben makes the most entertaining chess lectures. I don't hate when it happens.
It’s refreshing to see and hear a spontaneous, real, non-pc presenter who doesn’t sweet talk his audience.
He's very PC. He'd be homeless if he wasn't since his income is based entirely around teaching chess and he'd be run out of town by all the tolerant people.
I like how well he analyses games and combines it with a nice bit of humour
not even 30 minutes, very risky
and suspicious
hardi mawan terrible !!!
Urgh!
i've seen a lot of paul morphy games n find that his strategy was excellent way beyond his time.. the way he blocks his opponents frm developing then using his strongly developed pieces to crush the kings defences are awesome.. many players of today readily agree to a draw.. rather than go all out for the kill..
Suggestion for future videos: Karpov's Caro Kann (not necessarily karpov variation, but games where karpov plays the caro).
I think Josh might have been echo-ing a statement by Bobby Fischer where Fischer said that if you brought Paul Morphy into the modern age he would be destroyed by a master. however you have to take this into context. Fischer at the time hated modern chess because he believed it was all memorize memorize memorize, play opening get advantage in the opening win. Chess had become so mechanical that there was no room for imagination. And because of this he wanted to use Paul Morphy as a surrogate to prove his point. In other words, opening theory was so important even a mere master could beat Paul Morphy because a master would gain an edge in the opening and win from it. Of course if you think this is true then you obviously haven't played through the game Capablanca Marshall, 1918 New York, with the original Marshall gambit. It's a fantastic game where Frank Marshall had been holding on to this gambit idea for a long time, ten years maybe in order to spring it on Capablanca and Capablanca fell right into it. Marshall from the opening had a good initiative but once they went into the middle game Capablanca simply out calculated out planned, out played Marshall so much so that if you go back and play over the game it's incredibly difficult to even see where Marshall went wrong. If the nay sayers are right (I'm including the great Bobby Fischer here) that means that Capablanca should have lost to Marshall. Capablanca even played the terrible h3 weakening his king's safety and almost a hundred years later we have to let the powerful chess engines run all day in order to look for improvements for Marshall's play. That's how Morphy would treat mere GM's that tried to beat him with opening prep. The same way Capablanca ruined Frank Marshall.
Absolutely.
Right, it's ironic that the game is known for Marshall's attack and it showed the brilliance of Capablanca. He was unbeaten for 8 years, including that game and the world title match v the great Lasker. It is foolish indeed to downplay the greatness of players who were giants both of their time and of chess history; on their shoulders today's top players have been able to climb.
"Morphy would be destroyed by a master today ONLY if Morphy had no access to any modern chess theory or books."
This is the statement that me, Ben Finegold and many others disagree with. To think a mere master would beat Paul Morphy just because he knows more opening theory. I think you over-estimate how strong a mere master is. Anyway, let's just agree to disagree and I also think yes, the great Bobby Fischer was wrong too. Morphy could beat 20 masters from today in a simul blindfolded. I don't care how much opening theory you have, that's how good he was.
Fischer had an agenda. He wanted to destroy modern chess and replace it all with Fischer random style. So that's why he would say stuff like that. But for anyone with a good idea of the vast difference between the strength of a grandmaster and a master, well, no, a great opening just does not give you that much of an edge.
Blair K yup
Fischer went on to say that we should talk about skill instead, implying Morphy was one of the most skilled chess players ever. You are talking about a match almost a hundred years old. We now have 3000+ ELO machines who calculate what should be the most optimal move however deep into the opening you want. I don't think it's a stretch. It goes so much farther than simply the first few moves, but dozens upon dozens upon dozens upon dozens of moves later. He'd have to recognize and realize weakness in a near perfect (According to our best machines) strategy within a game. Not a gambit, but actual, hard strategy. Play a few games, Morphy would probably start winning. But one game? I don't think so.
What's with all the cutting of the video?, terrible!
Ben defends again with a Morphy lecture and GM Friedel is no longer rooming with him - we'll be back next week with the Real House-GMs of St. Louis.
Really enjoying these videos. My chess has gotten much better as well. Thanks much, keep cranking them out!
What's up with the weird cuts?
Your comments are insightful
They Insight Violence
lol...
Always love Ben Finegold lectures.
incite*
andrew not getting the joke
edward bedrosian Hm it seems to me, if he had to write out his statement himself he would read "read your comments, they were very insightful, they incite violence." (Roughly)
Why does spelling incite correctly lose the joke?
Good to see you back. Please upload more Morphy games.
More Ben Finegold videos. Because he aint boring.
Thank you Mr Finegold for the video and thanks to the team who produced it.
Wow! never seen Ben Simon work so hard, it was like watching zombie Finegold!
I'm fairly sure the orders must have come from the top. Mr. Sinquefield has some pretty sensitive political issues ;)
He has issues, period.
liam314 its because the owner of the chess club is also local head of his KKK chapter. it doesn't get more alt-right, neo-con than that. so obviously anything that isn't a nazi salute or strictly relating to chess is edited out.
Morphy 2100 in 1850....inflation would make that about 2700 in 2016.
Exactly, most players think that the rating system is absolute. Imagine their distress when I point out otherwise and when they google it they find I am correct.
How about Capablanca, do we have an inflationary rating for him?
It's estimated that Capablanca would be 2877 :)
The FIDE ratings were already inflating at a slow rate before Arpad Elo left. After he left, it was in 1985 I think, then the ratings really started to inflate quickly. If you converted Fischer's rating from after he destroyed Taimanov, Larsen, and Petrosian to now it would probably be about equal to Carlsen's.
Well he didn't really destroy Petrosian but he clearly dominated him in the match. Taimanov and Larsen he beat 6-0, that's unbelieveable. After Fischer won the world championship he quit competing. Maybe he would have increased his playing strength even more who knows?
I think Fischer is the strongest player to have played the game... not even just on the board but psychologically as well. Man could fuck you up lol
The Wright brothers weren't very good airplane builders or the best pilots, either. But at the time they were simply the best.
There should be a video with just a compilation of the cuts.
Another excellent video, Ben. Thanks for using your wit, sarcasm, and charm to the fullest to lay waste to such a silly idea. Excellent presentation, in general. Cheers!
Ben is the most entertaining chess teacher on the internet. Truth hurts!
Damn straight GM Finegold. Morphy would destroy any master in a match. I laugh when people say, "Morphy would have trouble beating a master these days because today the masters know a lot of opening theory." My reply, "The problem with that logic is that not knowing theory would benefit Morphy because he would quickly take the modern master out of his book. Morphy's excellent chess talent plus his ability to coordinate his pieces and see tactics would soon dismantle a modern master. The superior player will win a match against any booked up player because the booked up player soon runs out of book moves and will play like a patzer compared to a player like Morphy."
The saltiness is real! I love it! Welcome back, GM Finegold! :D
Fischer said : A popularly held theory about Morphy is that if he returned to the chess world today and played our best contemporary players, he would come out the loser. Nothing is further from the truth. In a set match, Morphy would beat anybody alive today.
Excellent lecture! Paul Morphy was a beast! Surely he had to be a strong GM even by today's standards.
As Always Superb! Thanks GM Ben Finegold for another OUTSTANDING lesson!~ I enjoy All of your videos, you are GREAT!
27:10
"We have lives outside the chess club"
Yes, we know, and that is the problem. Couln't you all just stop doing this silly living thingy, and get us more videos.
Thanks!
Ben's at it again! Hell yeah
Ben is epic and best ever. I would like to see 1 O'clock class with Ben
Kids asking Ben what is 2100, what is Paul Morphy, what is chess...........
Ben Winegold!!!!
Watching Morphy chess games on RUclips, I remember two things, #1. Development is everything and #2. Morphy says, "I am not a butcher" which means when you have a good move, you look for a better move. You do not just waste our tempo gathering material when there is a stronger move to help you win the game.
We need an uncensored version....
The RUclips subtitles have you as "been fine goal" Hahaha
Ben, please don't pay attention to what some people say. Your lectures are always very instructive mixed with sharp humour... So, keep up a good work!!! BTW, I entirely agree with you, Paul Morphy was the greatest player ever lived.
Simply amazing! One of the best lessons of Ben! He was really in the mood ^) THANKS!!
Yeah he had great energy during this one.
GM Finegold is wrong, if Morphy played today his FIDE rating would be over 3000. ☺
You're the best-est, Ben! Loved the video. :)
I hate people who say things like Morphy wouldn't be a super gm or Bill Russell wouldn't be good in the current NBA. That shit's just crazy. Deep set fundamental knowledge will make someone competitive regardless of the era.
Ben, good to know you read the comments!! nice. I learn a lot and have fun also with your videos!! :))
This is Ben's best video
Love these videos!!! Go Ben!!!
When does the director's cut with the bonus footage come out?
Never... and you'll like it!
Morphy was light years ahead of *ANY* available competition of his time.Or, I suspect, of anything other than the silicone based of today.
He's Back!!!!!!!!!
Great lecture, Morphy's games are amazing. Thanks
Ben rules, more lectures please!
Do people not realize if you simply gave people like capablanca and morphy just a bit of time to study modern theory, they’d be at the top today? Think about it, they got their chess skill without the shit we have today. Can you imagine how strong they might be if they were given the opportunity to remove their weaknesses in theory with modern knowledge? Shit, I’d go far to say that if you put all the greatest players of all time (including the ones we have today) in a chess960 tournament, the guys in the past would come out on top!!!!
you're absolutly right ... the talent Capa and Paul had was just so up there ... modern theory is just something to learn ... i bet if they were alive they'd be top 5
Morphy is so brilliant it’s hard to even comprehend his strategies. Much less coming up with them on your own... blindfolded.
Love your lectures learning a lot keep it up 👍🏻
wow, i was actually getting a drink when Ben said somebody at home was getting a drink. Could hear him saying it in the background. Spooky..
I swear I was just reading this comment as Ben said somebody at home was getting a drink
Bobby Fischer: "A popularly held theory about Paul Morphy is that if he returned to the chess world today and played our best contemporary players, he would come out the loser. Nothing is further from the truth. In a set match, Morphy would beat anybody alive today."
Enough said. You can believe idiots or you can believe a world champion like Fischer. It's your choice. If it's chess, Fischer knows what he is talking about.
Fisher was also fuking crazy.
:p no im just kidding. well...actually im not but you know what I mean lol
lovetownsend 1) He was not crazy. 2) If it's chess he knows what he is talking about.
Do you prefer to believe what chess Grandmasters are saying or do you prefer to believe patzer idiots?
lovetownsend so was morphy
YtubeUserr tbf Fischer was a little luney
YtubeUserr and since you claim he wasn't then i have a rather simple refutation: bxh2
Morphy wasnt privey to modern chess theory like today. Also morphy defense against ruy lopez is still played today and hasnt been refuted by any of the top engines yet. So take what you want from that.
These videos are really instructive.
I learned what the Dennis Miller Ratio was.
I enjoy all your videos Ben....really! Paul Morphy is inspirational...as are you!
Ben is back!!!!
One of the many great things about Ben's lectures is that he never says the annoyingly overused phrase 'a move like'. Not even when there is more than one option for the move. You would never catch him saying something like 'The ruy lopez begins with a move like e4'.
It seems obvious for people to assume you’re strange in your time if you’re ahead of it.
So glad Ben is back. The (chess) world is a very cold place without him.
blud thinks hes travis scott on till further notice
The strongest chess player of HIS DAY wasn't strong? Certainly an Arrogant title, especially now that top level chess players are on "Chess Engine Steroids" comparatively. It's easy to use a chess computer and memorize lines and refutations... which is what prompted Bobby Fischer to challenge all of these so called GM's to "Random Chess" (Chess 960)... With no theory to memorize and no computer to act as Steroids, let's see who's "Strong" then.
I love your videos Maan!!!
You censored the best entertainer you have.
Shame on you, Saint Louis.