Two persons of different political views have a civilised conversation on the internet. Can we make this normal again please? Thank you for this, this is how political discourse should be done.
This guy is such a pure centrist. The only thing he stood for was remain. Any other issue was/is of no concern to him. When he said "they are not policies" what he meant was he doesnt care about those issues. To also claim that JC would be doing as bad as BJ is an awful take. He should write a book on 'how to be wrong' or summit like that.
He said raising taxes on the rich, nationalisation of utilities and cancelling uni debt are beautiful principles. Not only does that make him left of centre, but it makes him right - they are principles not policies
There is literally no reason to assume Corbyn would have been worse on the vaccine roll out. None. He would have however not have contracted out every aspect of the response to private party donors so it's arguable he would have had been far better in response and the level of vaccine response would never have been as necessary as it is now.
Agreed. I quite like James despite my being the sort of Corbyn supporter that he's referring to (big Remain voter but very little desire to talk about 2nd referendums, very disillusioned with centrism and Starmer, etc.) but to me it seems that the country's efforts in vccination are largely in spite of the Government, rather than because of. Our scientific and medical infrastructure is long-established, and see no reason why under a Corbyn government it wouldn't be the same. Indeed, when the Tories have put their hands in, it's been to delay 2nd vaccinations in contradiction with the medical advice. Believe he also talked pretty early on in the pandemic about how crucial it was that the roll out of vaccines be as wide as possible since the very nature of viruses dictates that as long as certain countries/areas are unable to access it, means that the virus lives on. Obviously this is a distant second place to the fact that people should have a human right to their safety anyway, regardless of whether it affects others. What I will say is, the way James feels some people were overly zealous about Corbyn, you could level the opposite at him, e.g. wanting to believe he'd have been worse without really saying why. Still, the Tories will love all of us broadly on the same side sniping at each other. Very difficult situation for us all.
@@Bendoverstoke *With great respects to James, he would say nothing would improve that much under a JC-led government right now because he wouldn't understand what an extra 1-year extension on no home evictions & a giving worker's more sick pay would do for the working class and struggling lower-middle class. He is such a Social Liberal that he just doesn't engage in a thought experiment on how transformative that would be to families like mine. Or he doesn't care enough. Either way, It's nothing new. The Moderate Liberal has been like this since voting began, hence why Labour split from the Liberal Party in the first place.*
@@Bendoverstoke personally, I think he’s a deceitful little SOB is JOB. The absolute stupidity or dishonesty to say “I’m baffled by just how much Johnson continues to get away with” inside the first minute of this interview when JOB created this false equivalence between any minor infringement Corbyn made in GE2019 and the barrel of lies told by Johnson proves he is an insincere and hollow political commentator.
Exactly. well said. I don't know what mental gymnastics or financial dependence is going on with JO'B but how he can say that Corbyn wouldn't have been any better, with Johnson literally handling it worse than any leader on the planet, arguably including Donald trump... 🤯 Has he lost his mind?
The thing that strikes me most about his opinion on corbyn is the fixation on the politician instead of policies. For someone who is quick to criticize trump and the cult of personality he has created with fox news, James is awfully quick to dismiss corbyn on the basis that he isn't a strong enough personality.
He's the same on his right wing media critique. He contends it's strong enough to sway elections, but apparently it didn't affect Corbyn's chances at all, it was all down to Corbyn. Not to mention his ridiculous cognitive dissonance when he claims 2017 GE was just remainers lending their vote to Corbyn (when Corbyn said he would respect the leave vote), but the 2019 GE was because remainers 'lost faith' in Corbyn (when he actually pledged a second referendum)
@@tonguelessghostofsin The cognitive dissonance you highlight is striking and really important to mention. For a paid commentator of his level to have such a large flaw in his thinking on an issue that he spent a large part his time pursuing, is either extremely ignorant or he is being disingenuous. Surely the fair thing for Owen jones would have been to push back against this clearly false narrative.
You are talking about two different things. The cult of personality is about how a politician will say anything to be popular but when it comes to big decisions they are useless. A leader needs to be able to lead and inspire that is the issue he is raising about JC I personally thought that Labours manifesto in the last two elections was phenomenal however Corbyn struggled to take on the Torys in the media and parliament which was his fault
I was with O'Brien, right up until he turned on Corbyn. Still disappointing/surprising James couldn't see through the calculated and fabricated attacks on the man, from the establishment, from his opposers, and from his own party. If James couldn't see it, I knew the country wouldn't.
On the Corbyn debate I'm somewhere between you and James. However we hate it when the Tory press and party rally round their leaders whatever happens in the run up to elections but when the left wing media don't do that then you complain about it. You can't have it both ways! If you want an impartial and nuanced take from the media then don't complain when you get exactly what you asked for. He's hardly a Tory, is he?
@@zsht For me this is precisely what made JOB so dangerous. If he could so easily be persuaded (or paid) to turn against one of his own, how could he ever be trusted again?
JOB is either disingenuous or stupidly self-destructive and self defeating. Maybe it is his subconscious, but he behaves like someone who does not want change, however much he says he does. When we had an opportunity for change JOB played a key gatekeeper role in preventing it.
It just doesn't make any sense, why would the private-educated son of a Daily Telegraph journalist not want change? Hmmm... what could his rea$on$ be? Hmmmmmmm
Unbelievable he still can't admit JC would have been better than Boris. I can understand you're tired of the conversation Owen but it's an important one to have... Labour under Corbyn was full of very sensible policies that any "evidence based" centre-left journalist should of been swooning over seeing how well they've been demonstrated to have worked in other European countries.
He is extremely woolly in his vague reasons why he disliked Corbyn. He comes up with zero just a feeling that he thought Corbyn was the wrong man. Mind he's extremely sympathetic to Starmer despite claiming he is not impressed with him. He's willing to excuse Starmers collaborating with herd immunity. Corbyn stood for nothing according to O'Brien. He stood for public ownership of public services. Oh that's very woolly according to O'Brien. Just awful. I like his criticisms of Brexit but middle class woolly condemnation of the movement to end NHS privatisation, (which is what Corbynism was,) from people like him, helped to put Johnson in power.
Yanis Varoufakis summed it up brilliantly when he said (in his Russell Brand interview) that the left will never win whilst the working class who voted for Brexit are held in contempt. O'Brien has made a career for the past 4 years fermenting that contempt.
They simply need more people from working class backgrounds at all levels of the party. Then they might actually be believable when they do try and reach out to those voters. I suspect few in parliament across all parties got free school meals as kids
Yeah his whole schtick is just berating any Joe Bloggs who calls in who happens to be less informed than him by virtue of working a 9-5 that has nothing to do with politics and also not having staff there who can pull stuff up and feed it to him on the spot in the middle of an argument.
Problem is, to suggest that he shouldn't be allowed to disagree and call out these people (who need and deserve to be called out) only makes things worse as well.
O'Brien never forgave Corbyn for rejecting his interview, and his blind contempt for and misframing of Corbyn's positions makes me think that he has a burning envy for the support Corbyn enjoyed. That and O'Brien's liberal Twitter echo chamber keeps reinforcing the belief that it was all Corbyn's fault and if only empty Blair clones were in charge then all the injustices would be rectified.
I was following a lot of political commentators' Twitter feeds 2016-19 and O'Brien's contempt for Corbyn verged on being the most *obsessive,* the most *fanatical* and the most *illogical* of the lot - to the point that I genuinely wonder if he suffers from BPD.
Classic BS. The best way for knuckledraggers like you to try and shut down criticism is to shift the onus probandi away from it. It matters less about the solution than it does identifying the problem.
Nah, he's wrong about Corbyn. The manifesto was brilliant. We would never have reached this death toll. He was wrong back then, he's wrong now. Everybody years clamoured for a candidate with intelligence and principle, a person who wouldnt comprimise the truth to sooth the masses, and we had it. When we had that candidate, the left and liberals needed to raleigh and hold strong for those left wing principles, and his own party savaged him. The sad truth is, if James and his collegues had had the balls to stick up for those policies and those left wing principles, and he didnt have that courage. That loss was on him as much as anyone.
My thoughts also. Starmer continuing to attack the left in the Labour Party is the reason why the party is struggling financially. Why pay for Tory lite
For an intelligent and insightful man O'Brien's views on JC are so lazy and crass. His assertion that people voted for JC in 2017 because they thought he was the anti-brexit totem is just plain wrong. Labour's manifesto was that they would accept the decision of the referendum. People voted for JC because they were energised by a radical agenda for change.
@@RichardBaker625 Corbyn's left wing policy was the same, but his Brexit policy was *more* remain in 2019. So the idea that he was popular in 2017 on the basis of his being remain, but then became unpopular afterwards in 2019 because he was too pro Brexit just doesn't add up.
It’s not “just plain wrong” is it because it’s not a binary thing. Just have a look back on RUclips comments / Twitter from around the time; people did what he’s saying happened and you’re suggesting is wrong?
TheYopogo ok cool - going to watch back as I didn’t think it was being presented as binary; but more obviously anecdotal and representative of *a* factor that had influence.
@@TheYopogo I left the Labour party because of Corbyn's Brexit faffing between 2017 and 2019. Whether his final manifesto pledge was 'more remain' than before doesn't matter, he'd completely lost trust on the issue.
JO'B is alot more cynical than I initially thought. Give Corbyn all the slack you want about campaigning, political sensibilities or leadership. Lack of ideas should be at the bottom of the pile.
100% correct. And I'm not a Corbyn fan. But he certainly brought new (well some "old" that he brought back / up a new) issues and suggested solutions to the front of the agenda.
@@danielwebb8402 I think the most misunderstood part about Corbyn (/ism) in the mainstream is how the support for Corbyn wasn't a contrivance of his. Corbyn's Parliamentary career and political sympathies made him a favourite of a nascent socialist movement within the party. And I think the relationship was a difficult one for him to navigate, as the LOTO role demands a certain ruthlessness that he was never going to be comfortable exercising. Right politics; wrong man.
@@willsupremecommander True. He did seem uncomfortable being leader. Fact McDonnell and Diane Abbott ran for leader before JC shows he wasn't exactly uber ambitious for himself.
I really don't like the way James is stating Jeremy Corbyn 'would have been awful' as PM. I get that he voted Labour, but - the way he would rather complain about Corbyn than Johnson does not sit well with me.
One thing you could guarantee with a Corbyn gov over the pandemic is that outsourcing things like track and trace to the Tories' mates would never have happened. Testing would more likely be done by local authorities rather than Serco.
@@voodoochile333 tedious. She's accomplished more than you will in several lifetimes. Probably better at nerve wracking, hostile TV interviews than you too.
So where is this evidence that any oursourcing went to the mates of Tories. All we have seen is smears like this based on innuendo and insinuation. None of you peopel have ever provided one single shred of evidence of wrong doing by anyone. Not one Tory politician, not one liebour party politician or lib dem for that matter had any involvement with the issuing of any contract to anyone, Why do you lie like this Charlie? Corbyn would have been a disaster for this country. if we had done what he and Starmer had demanded the country would have been in a terrible state
James doesn’t seem to realise that in the seats Labour lost in 2019, not “getting Brexit done” was a big reason for the Tory vote. If Labour had been for a second referendum in 2017, it would probably have seen a loss rather than gain in the number of Labour MPs.
But the biggest reason was that people didn't like Corbyn. Let's not pretend that the Conservatives won because the majority of people wanted to leave the EU. That just isn't true.
Couldn't disagree more, I'm afraid. An electorate sick of waiting were given a choice between the Tories' "Brexit by the end of next month" and Labour's "Brexit in another six months", and - predictably - went for the former; there was nothing Labour could've offered in terms of Brexit that would've kept their hold over the Red Wall that the Tories weren't already promising. Their position was untenable and politically redundant. This is why they hemorrhaged their core vote in the North, and struggled elsewhere - they stood for nothing and for nobody. A pro-Remain stance may've been extremely risky, but at least Labour would've had a clear message that people actually wanted to hear.
JOB: corbyn lost because he didn't back remain and my rich remain voting friends switched in 2019. Has James O'Brien not bothered to look at the numbers at all. The voters Labour lost were Leave voters in red wall seats. The remain vote largely stuck with labour between 2017 and 2019. What is he talking about?
JOB never forgave Corbyn for refusing an interview, and pretty much says so. He picked up and developed every trope that the right-wing press were throwing at Corbyn. It's about time he took his own advice and changed his mind sometimes.
I lost a lot of respect for JoB when he was presenting the corbyn project and Boris' conservatives as equally incompetent and corrupt. You tried ur best Owen but I didn't hear anything today that restored that respect. Unfortunately James personifies the fence sitters of liberal media who need to own up to their brunt of the blame for being complicit in the installation of the worst UK government in our lifetime...
Wanting something is an idea or an aspiration - how to achieve it is the policy. There have been numerous attempts to legislate money away from the rich, and they have repeatedly failed. Tax havens and top tier lawyers will see to that.
I would suggest suggest that he says that because he clearly understands that a policy is more than just a wish list - it is a leat outline of the process of actually doing something. I assume you have policies at work yeah? Not just a pithy couple of lines are they?
Last one from me; On the issue of why Labours polls haven't moved i think it's nothing to do with Starmer OR Corbyn. I think it's simply an issue that the majority of the population are completely politically disengaged and are fed an unlevened diet of right wing media. So it doesn't matter who the Labour leader is or what they say, it doesn't make a difference because the Tory "block" will always be fed the same information from the same sources and thus will always vote the same way.
Every centrist uses the excuse of 'Corbyn was unelectable', but it's a complete facade. You only have to look at Labour's position in the polls before the brexit u-turn, not to mention Labour growing to be the biggest party in Europe. There's something in his policies that made the centrists like James uncomfortable and it's time they owned up.
Interesting interview. He's totally wrong about Corbyn Sadly.. Corbyn was the only one prepared to stand for a left wing stance, not hard left, just left. Someone else who had stood on that platform would have won.
....what platform exactly? We want a second rederendum but not really and we aren't remain either since we actually want to leave, but we don't say it out loud because we know that most labour voters are remainers?
I thought this was really disappointingly softball. Was looking forward to a decent exploration of differences between leftists and liberals but all we got was a friendly chat. There's a place for that too but would love to see someone actually challenge O'Brien, Dunt etc. from the left. Ah well....
Agreed. I really enjoyed the chat over all and think both Owen and James are interesting people, but I was extremely disappointed when Owen said "I don't want to dwell on this" when talking about Jeremy Corbyn. He didn't really challenge James in any real way. Jeremy Corbyn had lots of faults, but to put him on a level with Boris Johnson is simply lunacy.
James needs to get back to his therapist and get a refund seeing as he can't admit he's wrong about Corbyn or accept that the 2019 election was the second EU referendum.
I think you've missed a golden opportunity to ask JOB why he ceased talking about the massive problem of anti-semitism in the Labour Party the instant JC left the leadership and hasn't mentioned it again (apart from the week the EHRC report came out). Honestly the face he pulls when you say that the centrists were more focussed on bashing Corbyn that the Tories is a hoot. Like the Guardian for Christs' sake weren't publishing literally 5-6 hit pieces per day at some points. Like prominent Labour MPs weren't hurling abuse at him in person and in the press and openly declared they wouldn't work with him the day he was elected.
“Yes, Johnson is an explicit racist who is driving us towards a hard Brexit, but on the other hand Corbyn didn’t single handedly win the referendum did Remain somehow in 2016 so he’s just as bad if not worse”
@@tomh2121 Yes, but he says he was voting for his local candidate. He also says several times throughout this interview that he thinks it's possible Corbyn would have been worse.
@@TheYopogo No he says several times certain aspects of him would have been worse. He also said in some ways he would have been better, like with support for those 3 million that missed out. He did not say that he thought Boris is better than Corbyn. That's what you want him to have said. He is critical of Corbyn, but that does not make him a Boris supporter. As I said, he voted Labour over Tory, and whether or not the local candidate had some sway in his voting, I think that speaks to his preference very clearly.
Labours Brexit policy in 2017 = Respect the referendum, in 2019 = 2nd referendum. O'Briens analysis = 2017 remainers voted Labour, 2019 remainers abandoned Labour. What brilliant analysis there from James O'Brien.
26:22 lmao because he gets on with other people doesn't mean he's an empty vessel, what kind of weaksauce interpretation is this? How many people can rhyme off Gordon Brown's policies and stances as opposed to Jeremy Corbyn's? I'll bet the more people with the latter than the former because he has resonated more and he has a track history of progressive action.
“Policies and stances” are meaningless unless you win power. Gordon Brown at least had 10 years as one of the most progressive and distributive chancellors in modern history (policies like national minimum wage, windfall tax on the utilities, tax credits, EMA etc.). Things which made a real difference to people’s lives. Corbyn’s so-called principles are meaningless as he failed to win an election.
@@djjs91 Unsubstantiated to claim that Corbyn principles are meaningless, real power indeed because he was close of winning the election in 2017 on that mandate if the right side of the party didn't attempted a coup. Again, barely noone can remember his policies of him as Prime Minster, he was not elected by the public in a general election, he rode on the coattails of Tony Blair and failed to win aganist David Cameron.
JCs labour was was full of evidence based sensible policies that this country desperately needs. Starmer is the complete empty vessel, currently being filled with the Labour hard right
I think JC within the current political/Governmental structure is not what gave people hope. JC as a moral compass, in a current climate of dishonesty and standing for nothing/anything, was what he represented. Building a political structure around a moral compass, where peoples' strengths are built around that solid central core to deliver a dynamic and future thinking Opposition and soon to be Government was the dream. The Personality Cult killed JC. He was never meant to be the leader.......We no longer need leaders, we should have collective effort and will, built upon solid foundations of compassion that JC represented.
Honestly elevating one guy as a weird messianic totem for the party was a terrible idea. It just leads to purity politics, which is lethal for any movement.
@@videogamenostalgia I don't think he was elevated. His years as an MP displayed he was a conviction politician. He's not the messiah, but he was a decent human being. That's all people wanted.
'Everyone I know who voted Corbyn voted remain in 2017' - they would do at middle class London dinner parties - step outside the M25 for once in your life?
i voted for corbyn and i voted to remain! corbyn who is euro sceptic knew leaving with the tories in charge would be disastrous for the country, he was right...........again.
James O'Brien seems very logical on a lot of stuff but on Corbyn he seems to have not been paying attention, it's insane he thinks a Corbyn led government wouldn't have handled the pandemic a lot better
What makes you think that? Corbyn would still be following the padmenic handbook which all governments have to follow a lot of people don't seem to understand how governments work it's easy to why not do this or should done that etc.
@@charliezz6746 Knowing Corbyn's beliefs and what he said while he was still leader during the rise of the pandemic. Also the UK government acted very differently to most governments, I don't believe Corbyn would have strayed from the response of most countries. We'd have had a similar or harsher lockdown than new Zealand under Corbyn
The problem with "softer brexit" is that it was immeadiately branded as "remain by another name" and "wouldn't be the end of the argument" and at that point people were already sick of hearing about it. For all the talk of Corbyn handing the Tories "the biggest majority ever" etc etc the reality is it was simply a vote to stop hearing about Brexit and that's it. It was over before it started.
This is going to be a unpopular take, but if there was a Tony Blair like character - by that I mean someone young to politics without Corbyns' history - I think the whole Brexit debacle could've been turned around and another referendum had, also with the aid of many Tories.
@@rossleeson8626 Did you not take note of the votes for Brexit, a referendum, a European vote for MEPs , and a General Election, all overwhelmingly won by Leavers.
@@rossleeson8626 you mean someone elected to Parliament for the first time in 2015? Someone like Keir Starmer? Hmmm. I don't think another "Blair" figure would have solved anything, I mean look at how bad pro remain centerist Blairites (TIG, LD) in the election as well. No apatite for that sort of politics any more.
I'd written off OB as a completely intellectually bankrupt charlatan, a couple of years back. I thought I'd give this vid a try, because I DO appreciate some of OBs commentary. It confirmed my very worst feelings around him. Eurgh.
I like James. I used to listen to his show a lot, but how he is not able to say that Corbyn would have been better than Johnson, in spite of all of his flaws, is beyond me. It kind of makes me lose respect for him. Even some of the most hard nose Blairites I know admitted that they would have preferred Corbyn rather than this lot.
22:51 JOB, ofc you would say that, how so? Years of misinformation and castigating the left of the party, and you can't bear the consequences of your own actions
"I still take more sh*t from Jeremy Corbyn's fan club than from Nigel Farage's..." Can't imagine why. Maybe because you worked to destroy one and (inadvertently) enabled the other?
Politics shouldn’t be about jousting fights between contrasting personalities. Jeremy had policies and it was his very civilised moral stance and the policies that flowed from that, with connection he had with members and the public. Jeremy didn’t play the Parliamentary establishment game and this was positive. Brexit took that platform away from him. This James guy seems a throwback to the 90’s. A ‘centrist’ through and through. And all this Churchill guff. Not a serious person.
I really like O'Brien and he's bang on with so many things but I don't get his lack of nuance about Corbyn. He talks about Starmer facing a harsh, right wing media (far harder than 10 years ago) but would he acknowledge that part of Corbyn's difficulties and lack of electoral success was because he faced an incredibly hostile press who more of than not simply failed to report his words accurately?
As a person who has spent 40 years on the far left of politics I am sorry to say, if you remove the word 'Centrists' from your post, you have just perfectly described the UK left!
@@jackwaterman6727 Whose peace and whose justice Jack? That kind of answer gets us all nowhere......using words that have been sung by all sides in every argument mean nothing and are no replacement for hard nosed economic critique.
Word has is that even the therapist had to have therapy after enduring O'Brien's obsessive anti-Corbyn tirades... *"Please, get me out of here, I can't take any more!!"*
I voted to leave the EU based on personal experience. I lost count of job losses especially in the north based on factory closures funded by EU grants.
Are you saying the *closures* were actually funded to happen by EU grants? Or the factories kept open by funds from EU grants were closed at some point after those grants?
Corbyn destroyed Mays opposition against all odds in the 2017 GE. Agree he should have been tougher on the opposition and the unruly element in his own party.
I've like o'Brien generally, but I thought he was going to explain what must be some intelligent long thoughts on his problems with corbyn. What the funk was this? How can he have such weak arguments for not supporting corbyn's social policies with the alternative, by his own admission, being so horrific?
I didn't agree with the Corbyn opinion, as I was (and am) a supporter, however I accept what was said and feel the whole interview is well balanced. Enjoyed it very much. Stay safe and well everyone
There’s two issues.......a corrupt media/press in the pockets of the tories, and a system built for 2 political parties were there is actually lots, so the winner wins on less than 45% of the vote share
*With great respects to James, he would say nothing would improve that much under a JC-led government right now because he wouldn't understand what an extra 1-year extension on no home evictions & a giving worker's more sick pay would do for the working class and struggling lower-middle class. He is such a Social Liberal that he just doesn't engage in a thought experiment on how transformative that would be to families like mine. Or he doesn't care enough. Either way, It's nothing new. The Moderate Liberal has been like this since voting began, hence why Labour split from the Liberal Party in the first place.*
JC was completely uninspiring at PMQs. But you've not understood the point - JOb meant taking the message to people not already signed up to his beliefs. Which was most of the country.
I mean almost every single thing he says about Jeremy Corbyn here is just factually incorrect nonsense. It really is quite odd how he can be so completely just flatly wrong. And no, I don't think Jeremy Corbyn is messianic. That's a ridiculous and stupid thing to accuse his supporters of. I'm just aware of the fact that he's had basically unmatched levels of unfounded bile poured on him. And for anyone who knowns anything about leftist history in this country and around the world, it's very obvious why.
@@michaelanderson9168 Spending much of your energy pushing back against the avalanche of unreasonable criticism, which he received in extremely unusually high amounts, is not the same as viewing him as messianic.
@@michaelanderson9168 Pretending that the 2019 election was not just an election loss but also somehow proves that there was never a chance for left wing change to happen and never will be is also un-factual.
So JOB thinks that Corbyn wouldn't have been any better than Johnson. Wow, thought he cared about poor and vulnerable people. That's floored me. Disgusting
Obrien’s one track accusations against brexiteers actually hardened their views on brexit. He loves to portray himself as a man of empathy, of which he is totally lacking. His thoughts on Corbyn are utterly baffling.
It isn't true to say he had no ideological substance before he became leader. Corbyn may have been largely incompetent as a leader, but he had a firm ideological framework which articulated - in and of itself - legitimate and justified anger about the economic and social condition of society,.
Lots of interesting discussion, but I wish you'd nailed him to the wall a bit on Jeremy Corbyn. O'Brien seems to have very strong opinions but very little in the way of actual argument, which is unusual for him!
Great interview. The one thing I never understood about James O'Brien is why he thinks Corbyn would have been SO bad of a PM. Everyone I've spoken to who didn't like Corbyn (who aren't Tories) at least concede he'd be significantly better than the alternative. I've never seen him justify this viewpoint. EDIT: I share a lot of Owen's criticisms of Corbyn and some of James O'Brien. My hope for Corbyn wasn't deluded or filling an empty vessel. He is just an objectively decent human being in a political scene where that is very rare. He was my absolute bare minimum of what I expect from a politician. Most others are so far below my minimum bar.
“To be clear, I’m not trying to associate him with the views of David Irvine” - but of course that’s exactly what you’re doing. You are just worried about being sued for libel if you make it too explicit.
I think the Remain campaign could have overcome what James talks about around 18 mins, by contesting the WW2 / patriotism rhetoric. If you ask those old enough to actually remember the war, they overwhelmingly supported Remain because they did not want to return to a time when we were enemies.
Can't help thinking that the immigration issue is the wrong one to focus on, given that it was austerity that made people lash out Economic hardship is the same driver for all the anti immigration noise in the USA Make the economy work for everyone and everyone will be happy
It's just a tool. A target, a black sheep for especially right-wing politics. You can see it in many countries. And while immigration might cause some issues they're generally far smaller than larger more structural issues. And far too many people are suceptible to such rhetoric.
I have been both an admirer and critic of James O Brien despite his views about Corbyn. He is eloquent, thoughtful, witty and irascible in an interesting way. But above all, James O Brien is a man who knows how to look sincere being insincere. He has a mastery of disingenuity rivalled by no other. Listen to his interesting answer about Keir Starmer. Does anyone think he would have his well paid job at LBC if he supported Corbyn he was a genuine "leftie"?
The opening point about "cheaters never prosper" not being true and the horror of watching actual real-life villains like the Tories/GOP etc. getting away with everything all the time, is at the heart of my own politics. I'm educated in philosophy, politics, economics and all that stuff but at the end of the day, the fire in me and often my rage and passion in politics comes from just being utterly and endlessly furious at well... liars. Just plain greedy, selfish, myopic, sadistic liars. Sometimes it overtakes my critical thinking and I'll become quite emotional, but I think thats not a bad thing. You need a moral sense, and a center of integrity to have any kind of defense against grifters and political conmen. I'm left-wing not really because it makes more sense socio-economically (and it does because I've actually done the reading), but because my own honest, open-minded deep dive into the discourse revealed that an overwhelming majority of the liars and scam artists are and have always been conservative, theocratic, corporatist, aristocratic, regressive, sadistic, right wingers.
@@hmq9052 Thanks. And yeh, it feels iffy because the 'middle' as been dragged right over the last 40 years so what seems 'lefty' now or gets branded as 'extremist left' is actually, not that bad if you look into it. Especially in US discourse. What is considered left in the US either center-right everywhere else or *barely* center-left. On the moral duty sense, I'd agree too. I'm a lefty because, at the heart of it, people should be more important than profits. The economy should serve us, not the other way around.
majority of the liars and scam artists are and have always been conservative, theocratic, corporatist, aristocratic, regressive, sadistic, right wingers. 17 You forgot to mention mealy mouthed journalists.
Another problem with Labour at the moment is that the shadow cabinet is all too shadowy to the point of invisibility. Where are the impressive and inspiring Labour politicians?
Mr O'Brien I have listened to your show for years, your repeated & relentless excoriating of hardcore Brexit supporters on national radio is legendary: the put-downs & humiliations...It didn't help, in fact it mostly had the opposite effect of what you intended: it just enraged & entrenched many.
As a Leave voter I attended a Remain rally to see what arguments they advanced. I couldn't believe how much the Leave speakers came down to hatred. No attempt to advance arguments yet alone "lovebomb",
I thought this was excellent, Owen. We need more respectful disagreement in interviews, not shouting into the echo chamber or screaming down each other's throats. These sort of interviews are the way forward to encourage nuanced discourse across the spectrum. Keep it up!
Bus services only cost £4 billion a year to operate, out of total GDP (national income) of £2.2 trillion last year. Why has Labour not promised to make that free? That would be a huge vote winner in rural communities.
I'm in huge agreement with this but I feel this would be deemed as more 'free stuff' by the right, you'd have to at least run on a watered down version like "heavily subsidised buses for the most cut off regions" etc
You don’t understand what GDP is, we don’t have 2.2 trillion to spend . It’s the difference between turnover and net profit The British state has to borrow £50 Billion every year... so that’s means we make a massive ‘loss’ as a country.
@@heathen9945 "we don't have 2.2 trillion to spend" I said that GDP as a whole is £2.2 trillion, not necessarily that we had £2.2 trillion of spare money to spend. Defence takes up about £40 billion alone, spending on gambling £20 billion, spending on smoking/cigarettes £20.7 billion last year etc. Any of these could have money diverted from it or taxed and diverted into making bus transport free, which according to Google cost £3.77 billion last year.
Try reading Thomas sowell basic economics (that’s not a insult ) he’s a African American economist and explains economic myths superbly . Changed my thinking
JO'B has a personal problem with Corbyn - maybe because Corbyn snubbed him. JO'B: "If he wouldn't talk to me, who would he talk to?" Answer: Andrew Neil. Nick Robinson. Andrew Marr. John Humphrys. etc. etc.
Everyone either hated Jeremy or we're cultists, except James of course because he's so burdened with insight. He's the only one capable of a nuanced critique, which is that he is an empty vessel and equivalent to Boris Johnson. Any comments to the contrary are not nuanced!
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"separatism in Spain" JO'B - when talking about rightwing nationalism in europe. ffs
@@SonofRicky thats him all over massive rich hypocrite.
Oh and the socialist needs your money people 🙄
I heard no mention of the antisemitism issue? JOB always pointed to that. But not here. Why?
Two persons of different political views have a civilised conversation on the internet. Can we make this normal again please? Thank you for this, this is how political discourse should be done.
This guy is such a pure centrist. The only thing he stood for was remain. Any other issue was/is of no concern to him. When he said "they are not policies" what he meant was he doesnt care about those issues. To also claim that JC would be doing as bad as BJ is an awful take. He should write a book on 'how to be wrong' or summit like that.
He said raising taxes on the rich, nationalisation of utilities and cancelling uni debt are beautiful principles. Not only does that make him left of centre, but it makes him right - they are principles not policies
@@bengorry7831 Exactly, we are on the same page with similar goals and we need to work together to defeat the Tory right.
There is literally no reason to assume Corbyn would have been worse on the vaccine roll out. None. He would have however not have contracted out every aspect of the response to private party donors so it's arguable he would have had been far better in response and the level of vaccine response would never have been as necessary as it is now.
Agreed. I quite like James despite my being the sort of Corbyn supporter that he's referring to (big Remain voter but very little desire to talk about 2nd referendums, very disillusioned with centrism and Starmer, etc.) but to me it seems that the country's efforts in vccination are largely in spite of the Government, rather than because of. Our scientific and medical infrastructure is long-established, and see no reason why under a Corbyn government it wouldn't be the same. Indeed, when the Tories have put their hands in, it's been to delay 2nd vaccinations in contradiction with the medical advice.
Believe he also talked pretty early on in the pandemic about how crucial it was that the roll out of vaccines be as wide as possible since the very nature of viruses dictates that as long as certain countries/areas are unable to access it, means that the virus lives on. Obviously this is a distant second place to the fact that people should have a human right to their safety anyway, regardless of whether it affects others.
What I will say is, the way James feels some people were overly zealous about Corbyn, you could level the opposite at him, e.g. wanting to believe he'd have been worse without really saying why. Still, the Tories will love all of us broadly on the same side sniping at each other. Very difficult situation for us all.
@@Bendoverstoke *With great respects to James, he would say nothing would improve that much under a JC-led government right now because he wouldn't understand what an extra 1-year extension on no home evictions & a giving worker's more sick pay would do for the working class and struggling lower-middle class. He is such a Social Liberal that he just doesn't engage in a thought experiment on how transformative that would be to families like mine. Or he doesn't care enough. Either way, It's nothing new. The Moderate Liberal has been like this since voting began, hence why Labour split from the Liberal Party in the first place.*
@@Bendoverstoke personally, I think he’s a deceitful little SOB is JOB.
The absolute stupidity or dishonesty to say “I’m baffled by just how much Johnson continues to get away with” inside the first minute of this interview when JOB created this false equivalence between any minor infringement Corbyn made in GE2019 and the barrel of lies told by Johnson proves he is an insincere and hollow political commentator.
Thank you for your common sense!
Exactly. well said. I don't know what mental gymnastics or financial dependence is going on with JO'B but how he can say that Corbyn wouldn't have been any better, with Johnson literally handling it worse than any leader on the planet, arguably including Donald trump... 🤯 Has he lost his mind?
The thing that strikes me most about his opinion on corbyn is the fixation on the politician instead of policies. For someone who is quick to criticize trump and the cult of personality he has created with fox news, James is awfully quick to dismiss corbyn on the basis that he isn't a strong enough personality.
He's the same on his right wing media critique. He contends it's strong enough to sway elections, but apparently it didn't affect Corbyn's chances at all, it was all down to Corbyn. Not to mention his ridiculous cognitive dissonance when he claims 2017 GE was just remainers lending their vote to Corbyn (when Corbyn said he would respect the leave vote), but the 2019 GE was because remainers 'lost faith' in Corbyn (when he actually pledged a second referendum)
@@tonguelessghostofsin The cognitive dissonance you highlight is striking and really important to mention. For a paid commentator of his level to have such a large flaw in his thinking on an issue that he spent a large part his time pursuing, is either extremely ignorant or he is being disingenuous. Surely the fair thing for Owen jones would have been to push back against this clearly false narrative.
Exactly this.
@@jaikent81 No JOB is aware, he is just paid to disseminate misinformation
You are talking about two different things. The cult of personality is about how a politician will say anything to be popular but when it comes to big decisions they are useless. A leader needs to be able to lead and inspire that is the issue he is raising about JC I personally thought that Labours manifesto in the last two elections was phenomenal however Corbyn struggled to take on the Torys in the media and parliament which was his fault
I was with O'Brien, right up until he turned on Corbyn.
Still disappointing/surprising James couldn't see through the calculated and fabricated attacks on the man,
from the establishment, from his opposers, and from his own party.
If James couldn't see it, I knew the country wouldn't.
Yes, yes and yes. James was sadly wrong on that one x
On the Corbyn debate I'm somewhere between you and James. However we hate it when the Tory press and party rally round their leaders whatever happens in the run up to elections but when the left wing media don't do that then you complain about it. You can't have it both ways! If you want an impartial and nuanced take from the media then don't complain when you get exactly what you asked for. He's hardly a Tory, is he?
@@FlummoxedCartwright Please inform me . Who/ what is the Left wing media.
@@chetkayeable Sorry, James O'brien is a racist? What on earth gives you that idea?
@@zsht For me this is precisely what made JOB so dangerous. If he could so easily be persuaded (or paid) to turn against one of his own, how could he ever be trusted again?
JOB is either disingenuous or stupidly self-destructive and self defeating. Maybe it is his subconscious, but he behaves like someone who does not want change, however much he says he does. When we had an opportunity for change JOB played a key gatekeeper role in preventing it.
It just doesn't make any sense, why would the private-educated son of a Daily Telegraph journalist not want change? Hmmm... what could his rea$on$ be? Hmmmmmmm
Unbelievable he still can't admit JC would have been better than Boris. I can understand you're tired of the conversation Owen but it's an important one to have... Labour under Corbyn was full of very sensible policies that any "evidence based" centre-left journalist should of been swooning over seeing how well they've been demonstrated to have worked in other European countries.
I agree with you wholeheartedly there are still a lot of Owenites out there - and now stuck with Starmer
Labour had a wonderful message at that election, they just had the wrong man selling it.
He is extremely woolly in his vague reasons why he disliked Corbyn. He comes up with zero just a feeling that he thought Corbyn was the wrong man.
Mind he's extremely sympathetic to Starmer despite claiming he is not impressed with him. He's willing to excuse Starmers collaborating with herd immunity. Corbyn stood for nothing according to O'Brien.
He stood for public ownership of public services. Oh that's very woolly according to O'Brien.
Just awful. I like his criticisms of Brexit but middle class woolly condemnation of the movement to end NHS privatisation, (which is what Corbynism was,) from people like him, helped to put Johnson in power.
Yanis Varoufakis summed it up brilliantly when he said (in his Russell Brand interview) that the left will never win whilst the working class who voted for Brexit are held in contempt. O'Brien has made a career for the past 4 years fermenting that contempt.
Spot on.
They simply need more people from working class backgrounds at all levels of the party. Then they might actually be believable when they do try and reach out to those voters. I suspect few in parliament across all parties got free school meals as kids
Yeah his whole schtick is just berating any Joe Bloggs who calls in who happens to be less informed than him by virtue of working a 9-5 that has nothing to do with politics and also not having staff there who can pull stuff up and feed it to him on the spot in the middle of an argument.
Problem is, to suggest that he shouldn't be allowed to disagree and call out these people (who need and deserve to be called out) only makes things worse as well.
Foment.
O'Brien never forgave Corbyn for rejecting his interview, and his blind contempt for and misframing of Corbyn's positions makes me think that he has a burning envy for the support Corbyn enjoyed. That and O'Brien's liberal Twitter echo chamber keeps reinforcing the belief that it was all Corbyn's fault and if only empty Blair clones were in charge then all the injustices would be rectified.
I was following a lot of political commentators' Twitter feeds 2016-19 and O'Brien's contempt for Corbyn verged on being the most *obsessive,* the most *fanatical* and the most *illogical* of the lot - to the point that I genuinely wonder if he suffers from BPD.
couldn't have put it better myself
See my comment. Read this after I posted. Agree with you 100%
JOB can spend all day whining about the conservatives but when given an actual alternative - he bottled it 😐
Word
Just because he is on the left doesn't mean he should keep his grievances to himself. I think he did vote labour as well
@@sheep3370 Has he actually said that, because he’s since said Boris was ‘arguably’ less bad than Corbyn
Classic BS. The best way for knuckledraggers like you to try and shut down criticism is to shift the onus probandi away from it. It matters less about the solution than it does identifying the problem.
@@jonathanbailey1597 What does this mean?
Nah, he's wrong about Corbyn. The manifesto was brilliant. We would never have reached this death toll. He was wrong back then, he's wrong now. Everybody years clamoured for a candidate with intelligence and principle, a person who wouldnt comprimise the truth to sooth the masses, and we had it. When we had that candidate, the left and liberals needed to raleigh and hold strong for those left wing principles, and his own party savaged him. The sad truth is, if James and his collegues had had the balls to stick up for those policies and those left wing principles, and he didnt have that courage. That loss was on him as much as anyone.
My thoughts also. Starmer continuing to attack the left in the Labour Party is the reason why the party is struggling financially. Why pay for Tory lite
You are a joke. Pity Corbyn lost by a record margin.
@@voodoochile333 You are rude and nasty. So at least I'm not that ;)
Interpreter, please...
I voted for JC twice in the leadership elections but he was not the smartest Labour MP. I think John McDonnell would have been a little better.
For an intelligent and insightful man O'Brien's views on JC are so lazy and crass. His assertion that people voted for JC in 2017 because they thought he was the anti-brexit totem is just plain wrong. Labour's manifesto was that they would accept the decision of the referendum.
People voted for JC because they were energised by a radical agenda for change.
@@RichardBaker625 Corbyn's left wing policy was the same, but his Brexit policy was *more* remain in 2019.
So the idea that he was popular in 2017 on the basis of his being remain, but then became unpopular afterwards in 2019 because he was too pro Brexit just doesn't add up.
It’s not “just plain wrong” is it because it’s not a binary thing. Just have a look back on RUclips comments / Twitter from around the time; people did what he’s saying happened and you’re suggesting is wrong?
@@drpaynex4240 I'm sure there were *some* people who did that, but James claims that it was the *only* reason. And that is what is just plain wrong.
TheYopogo ok cool - going to watch back as I didn’t think it was being presented as binary; but more obviously anecdotal and representative of *a* factor that had influence.
@@TheYopogo I left the Labour party because of Corbyn's Brexit faffing between 2017 and 2019. Whether his final manifesto pledge was 'more remain' than before doesn't matter, he'd completely lost trust on the issue.
JO'B is alot more cynical than I initially thought. Give Corbyn all the slack you want about campaigning, political sensibilities or leadership. Lack of ideas should be at the bottom of the pile.
100% correct. And I'm not a Corbyn fan. But he certainly brought new (well some "old" that he brought back / up a new) issues and suggested solutions to the front of the agenda.
@@danielwebb8402 I think the most misunderstood part about Corbyn (/ism) in the mainstream is how the support for Corbyn wasn't a contrivance of his. Corbyn's Parliamentary career and political sympathies made him a favourite of a nascent socialist movement within the party. And I think the relationship was a difficult one for him to navigate, as the LOTO role demands a certain ruthlessness that he was never going to be comfortable exercising. Right politics; wrong man.
@@willsupremecommander
True.
He did seem uncomfortable being leader. Fact McDonnell and Diane Abbott ran for leader before JC shows he wasn't exactly uber ambitious for himself.
Indeed. If you compare him to the other leadership candidates in 2015 he had the most and clearest ideas
@@danielwebb8402 Reading about the leadership campaign I think they passed on the offer of running before Corbyn accepted.
I really don't like the way James is stating Jeremy Corbyn 'would have been awful' as PM. I get that he voted Labour, but - the way he would rather complain about Corbyn than Johnson does not sit well with me.
One thing you could guarantee with a Corbyn gov over the pandemic is that outsourcing things like track and trace to the Tories' mates would never have happened. Testing would more likely be done by local authorities rather than Serco.
Would have left it to Diane Abbott.
@@voodoochile333 tedious. She's accomplished more than you will in several lifetimes. Probably better at nerve wracking, hostile TV interviews than you too.
@@M2Mil7er She's accomplished eleventy-twelve hundred thousand things.
So where is this evidence that any oursourcing went to the mates of Tories. All we have seen is smears like this based on innuendo and insinuation. None of you peopel have ever provided one single shred of evidence of wrong doing by anyone. Not one Tory politician, not one liebour party politician or lib dem for that matter had any involvement with the issuing of any contract to anyone, Why do you lie like this Charlie? Corbyn would have been a disaster for this country. if we had done what he and Starmer had demanded the country would have been in a terrible state
@@MrKbonez Whilst you are trivialising her very real achievements, I did chuckle 😄
James doesn’t seem to realise that in the seats Labour lost in 2019, not “getting Brexit done” was a big reason for the Tory vote. If Labour had been for a second referendum in 2017, it would probably have seen a loss rather than gain in the number of Labour MPs.
Sad, but true.
He tackled that with the mention of 'based on lies' and the fact they still believe the lie like Trump supporters do
But the biggest reason was that people didn't like Corbyn. Let's not pretend that the Conservatives won because the majority of people wanted to leave the EU. That just isn't true.
Couldn't disagree more, I'm afraid. An electorate sick of waiting were given a choice between the Tories' "Brexit by the end of next month" and Labour's "Brexit in another six months", and - predictably - went for the former; there was nothing Labour could've offered in terms of Brexit that would've kept their hold over the Red Wall that the Tories weren't already promising. Their position was untenable and politically redundant. This is why they hemorrhaged their core vote in the North, and struggled elsewhere - they stood for nothing and for nobody.
A pro-Remain stance may've been extremely risky, but at least Labour would've had a clear message that people actually wanted to hear.
@@jphaggerty9046 That's fine. No law that says you have to agree with me. You're allowed to be wrong. :-)
JOB: corbyn lost because he didn't back remain and my rich remain voting friends switched in 2019.
Has James O'Brien not bothered to look at the numbers at all. The voters Labour lost were Leave voters in red wall seats. The remain vote largely stuck with labour between 2017 and 2019. What is he talking about?
JOB never forgave Corbyn for refusing an interview, and pretty much says so. He picked up and developed every trope that the right-wing press were throwing at Corbyn. It's about time he took his own advice and changed his mind sometimes.
Well said
I lost a lot of respect for JoB when he was presenting the corbyn project and Boris' conservatives as equally incompetent and corrupt. You tried ur best Owen but I didn't hear anything today that restored that respect. Unfortunately James personifies the fence sitters of liberal media who need to own up to their brunt of the blame for being complicit in the installation of the worst UK government in our lifetime...
Wtf is James on about saying that "the rich should pay more tax" and "utilities should be publicly owned" aren't policies??
O'brien is a crypto-right winger
I like O Brian ...but his views on this seem swayed & like he missed the gig ...missed the point.
Wanting something is an idea or an aspiration - how to achieve it is the policy. There have been numerous attempts to legislate money away from the rich, and they have repeatedly failed. Tax havens and top tier lawyers will see to that.
I would suggest suggest that he says that because he clearly understands that a policy is more than just a wish list - it is a leat outline of the process of actually doing something. I assume you have policies at work yeah? Not just a pithy couple of lines are they?
@@williamtopping What an astute political point that is.
Last one from me; On the issue of why Labours polls haven't moved i think it's nothing to do with Starmer OR Corbyn. I think it's simply an issue that the majority of the population are completely politically disengaged and are fed an unlevened diet of right wing media. So it doesn't matter who the Labour leader is or what they say, it doesn't make a difference because the Tory "block" will always be fed the same information from the same sources and thus will always vote the same way.
Every centrist uses the excuse of 'Corbyn was unelectable', but it's a complete facade. You only have to look at Labour's position in the polls before the brexit u-turn, not to mention Labour growing to be the biggest party in Europe. There's something in his policies that made the centrists like James uncomfortable and it's time they owned up.
Yep its a classic circular argument. I wont vote for x because x is unelectable because I wont vote for it
@@sgu00dir You'd have to agree the election result was unflattering.
I think nobody votes for labour as they as a party are unelectable. No policies, no opinion...a laughing stock
@@mrc4761 Well they certainly are all those things under Starmer.
@@mrc4761 as a said, that's a circular argument. Think about it for a second
Interesting interview. He's totally wrong about Corbyn Sadly.. Corbyn was the only one prepared to stand for a left wing stance, not hard left, just left. Someone else who had stood on that platform would have won.
Proved by....
The public won't vote for anyone left of Blair.
11 out of 11 elections as proof.
....what platform exactly? We want a second rederendum but not really and we aren't remain either since we actually want to leave, but we don't say it out loud because we know that most labour voters are remainers?
Wow. I thought James would give Corbyn more credit now. Shocked.
Actually I'm not. I just did a mental rewind.😂
Credit for what?
@@edders2009 He was still leader for the start of the pandemic and called it exactly right at the time, he would unambiguously have handled it better
@@edders2009 for probably running the ting better
@@karenmanagerwanter1744 He's clearly drunk too deeply from the poisoned chalice of false politics.
I thought this was really disappointingly softball. Was looking forward to a decent exploration of differences between leftists and liberals but all we got was a friendly chat. There's a place for that too but would love to see someone actually challenge O'Brien, Dunt etc. from the left.
Ah well....
Agreed. I really enjoyed the chat over all and think both Owen and James are interesting people, but I was extremely disappointed when Owen said "I don't want to dwell on this" when talking about Jeremy Corbyn. He didn't really challenge James in any real way. Jeremy Corbyn had lots of faults, but to put him on a level with Boris Johnson is simply lunacy.
Unfortunately, Owen is too afraid of falling out with guests to actually ask biting questions and take people to task.
@@andyrushent251 yes, that's true
James needs to get back to his therapist and get a refund seeing as he can't admit he's wrong about Corbyn or accept that the 2019 election was the second EU referendum.
I think you've missed a golden opportunity to ask JOB why he ceased talking about the massive problem of anti-semitism in the Labour Party the instant JC left the leadership and hasn't mentioned it again (apart from the week the EHRC report came out).
Honestly the face he pulls when you say that the centrists were more focussed on bashing Corbyn that the Tories is a hoot. Like the Guardian for Christs' sake weren't publishing literally 5-6 hit pieces per day at some points. Like prominent Labour MPs weren't hurling abuse at him in person and in the press and openly declared they wouldn't work with him the day he was elected.
I cringe when anyone says JOB is left wing. The man is a centrist.
He is Social Liberal/Centre-Left at best.
He voted boris for mayor and cameron over miliband, so n
I'm a Brexiteer and really enjoyed this. Only thing missing was a violin in the background.
“Yes, Johnson is an explicit racist who is driving us towards a hard Brexit, but on the other hand Corbyn didn’t single handedly win the referendum did Remain somehow in 2016 so he’s just as bad if not worse”
The 'centrist' mantra, 2016-2019
@@domefford864 It also did not say Corbyn was "proved to be a racist" you numpty.
Get back in your little goblin grotto.
He voted Labour didn't he? I think this is a complete mischaracterisation of JOB's opinions
@@tomh2121 Yes, but he says he was voting for his local candidate.
He also says several times throughout this interview that he thinks it's possible Corbyn would have been worse.
@@TheYopogo No he says several times certain aspects of him would have been worse. He also said in some ways he would have been better, like with support for those 3 million that missed out. He did not say that he thought Boris is better than Corbyn. That's what you want him to have said. He is critical of Corbyn, but that does not make him a Boris supporter. As I said, he voted Labour over Tory, and whether or not the local candidate had some sway in his voting, I think that speaks to his preference very clearly.
Labours Brexit policy in 2017 = Respect the referendum, in 2019 = 2nd referendum. O'Briens analysis = 2017 remainers voted Labour, 2019 remainers abandoned Labour. What brilliant analysis there from James O'Brien.
Thanks for your help james!
Boris x
I just can’t get my head around his views on JC
Yeah, it's a real mystery. Why would the privately educated son of a Daily Telegraph journalist hate a socialist? His rea$on$ are $o $o my$terious!
My phone's knobometer has just burst into flames.
26:22 lmao because he gets on with other people doesn't mean he's an empty vessel, what kind of weaksauce interpretation is this? How many people can rhyme off Gordon Brown's policies and stances as opposed to Jeremy Corbyn's? I'll bet the more people with the latter than the former because he has resonated more and he has a track history of progressive action.
"Resonated more" with the people that were going to vote for him anyway. With people on Twitter.
Not with the "Working class" and people on Facebook.
@@danielwebb8402 Do you have data to prove that point, the member's numbers and donations in the labour party swelled under JC
“Policies and stances” are meaningless unless you win power. Gordon Brown at least had 10 years as one of the most progressive and distributive chancellors in modern history (policies like national minimum wage, windfall tax on the utilities, tax credits, EMA etc.). Things which made a real difference to people’s lives. Corbyn’s so-called principles are meaningless as he failed to win an election.
@@djjs91 Unsubstantiated to claim that Corbyn principles are meaningless, real power indeed because he was close of winning the election in 2017 on that mandate if the right side of the party didn't attempted a coup. Again, barely noone can remember his policies of him as Prime Minster, he was not elected by the public in a general election, he rode on the coattails of Tony Blair and failed to win aganist David Cameron.
Ó Néill “close to winning the election in 2017” 👀❗️
JCs labour was was full of evidence based sensible policies that this country desperately needs. Starmer is the complete empty vessel, currently being filled with the Labour hard right
Yes, 100 times yes!
😂 😂 😂 😂
How can he say Corbyn had no ideology? He was the most principled politician around.
@@agr7879 yeah, it was obvious when he campaigned for remain that it kind of went against his ideology
I think JC within the current political/Governmental structure is not what gave people hope. JC as a moral compass, in a current climate of dishonesty and standing for nothing/anything, was what he represented. Building a political structure around a moral compass, where peoples' strengths are built around that solid central core to deliver a dynamic and future thinking Opposition and soon to be Government was the dream. The Personality Cult killed JC. He was never meant to be the leader.......We no longer need leaders, we should have collective effort and will, built upon solid foundations of compassion that JC represented.
Honestly elevating one guy as a weird messianic totem for the party was a terrible idea. It just leads to purity politics, which is lethal for any movement.
@@videogamenostalgia I don't think he was elevated. His years as an MP displayed he was a conviction politician. He's not the messiah, but he was a decent human being. That's all people wanted.
I will comment please turn down the volume on the intro music on every video it is my burden and my duty
'Everyone I know who voted Corbyn voted remain in 2017' - they would do at middle class London dinner parties - step outside the M25 for once in your life?
Yeah, that line just screamed "I'm living in a bubble".
Very revealing.
i voted for corbyn and i voted to remain! corbyn who is euro sceptic knew leaving with the tories in charge would be disastrous for the country, he was right...........again.
@@sirgaymeerkat1994 yet he did nothing to prevent it and made no case for remaining.
@@vaazig he did but people like you didn't listen! clearly!
@@sirgaymeerkat1994 to his private conversations? Because there was nothing in the public domain
James O'Brien seems very logical on a lot of stuff but on Corbyn he seems to have not been paying attention, it's insane he thinks a Corbyn led government wouldn't have handled the pandemic a lot better
He lets the real reason slip. Corbyn wouldn't come on his show. Pathetic
@@RhymeAsylumTV He does seem to have a personal grudge against him, which he pretty much admits in this
What makes you think that? Corbyn would still be following the padmenic handbook which all governments have to follow a lot of people don't seem to understand how governments work it's easy to why not do this or should done that etc.
@@charliezz6746 Knowing Corbyn's beliefs and what he said while he was still leader during the rise of the pandemic. Also the UK government acted very differently to most governments, I don't believe Corbyn would have strayed from the response of most countries. We'd have had a similar or harsher lockdown than new Zealand under Corbyn
@@shipwreckjs673 yep,correct,and now it’s over 12 million... glad to be out of eu..
Cannot stand this guy
Starmer should have come before Corbyn. Starmer will never win an election, I'm just hoping who follows after him has some actual principles.
He was a human rights lawyer. Does having principles mean marching and failing like Corbyn? Or being friends with terrorists?
The problem with "softer brexit" is that it was immeadiately branded as "remain by another name" and "wouldn't be the end of the argument" and at that point people were already sick of hearing about it. For all the talk of Corbyn handing the Tories "the biggest majority ever" etc etc the reality is it was simply a vote to stop hearing about Brexit and that's it. It was over before it started.
Bingo
This is going to be a unpopular take, but if there was a Tony Blair like character - by that I mean someone young to politics without Corbyns' history - I think the whole Brexit debacle could've been turned around and another referendum had, also with the aid of many Tories.
@@rossleeson8626 possibly but by no means guaranteed.
@@rossleeson8626 Did you not take note of the votes for Brexit, a referendum, a European vote for MEPs , and a General Election, all overwhelmingly won by Leavers.
@@rossleeson8626 you mean someone elected to Parliament for the first time in 2015? Someone like Keir Starmer? Hmmm. I don't think another "Blair" figure would have solved anything, I mean look at how bad pro remain centerist Blairites (TIG, LD) in the election as well. No apatite for that sort of politics any more.
I'd written off OB as a completely intellectually bankrupt charlatan, a couple of years back.
I thought I'd give this vid a try, because I DO appreciate some of OBs commentary.
It confirmed my very worst feelings around him. Eurgh.
James has definitely got some daddy issues with JC. If only he had got an interview!
I like James. I used to listen to his show a lot, but how he is not able to say that Corbyn would have been better than Johnson, in spite of all of his flaws, is beyond me. It kind of makes me lose respect for him. Even some of the most hard nose Blairites I know admitted that they would have preferred Corbyn rather than this lot.
22:51 JOB, ofc you would say that, how so? Years of misinformation and castigating the left of the party, and you can't bear the consequences of your own actions
"I still take more sh*t from Jeremy Corbyn's fan club than from Nigel Farage's..."
Can't imagine why. Maybe because you worked to destroy one and (inadvertently) enabled the other?
@@PantomimeHorse Bingo
Politics shouldn’t be about jousting fights between contrasting personalities. Jeremy had policies and it was his very civilised moral stance and the policies that flowed from that, with connection he had with members and the public. Jeremy didn’t play the Parliamentary establishment game and this was positive. Brexit took that platform away from him. This James guy seems a throwback to the 90’s. A ‘centrist’ through and through. And all this Churchill guff. Not a serious person.
I really like O'Brien and he's bang on with so many things but I don't get his lack of nuance about Corbyn. He talks about Starmer facing a harsh, right wing media (far harder than 10 years ago) but would he acknowledge that part of Corbyn's difficulties and lack of electoral success was because he faced an incredibly hostile press who more of than not simply failed to report his words accurately?
Centrists can't ever admit when they were wrong even when they are failing miserably.
He’s literally just written a book about being wrong.
As a person who has spent 40 years on the far left of politics I am sorry to say, if you remove the word 'Centrists' from your post, you have just perfectly described the UK left!
@@paulwalker797 because peace and justice is wrong?
@@jackwaterman6727 Whose peace and whose justice Jack? That kind of answer gets us all nowhere......using words that have been sung by all sides in every argument mean nothing and are no replacement for hard nosed economic critique.
@@paulwalker797 hard nosed economics also kept slavery alive for 267 years in this country. Doesn't mean it was right.
It appears therapy has done little to quash O'brien's bitterness for Corbyn and his supporters.....
Word has is that even the therapist had to have therapy after enduring O'Brien's obsessive anti-Corbyn tirades... *"Please, get me out of here, I can't take any more!!"*
I voted to leave the EU based on personal experience. I lost count of job losses especially in the north based on factory closures funded by EU grants.
Are you saying the *closures* were actually funded to happen by EU grants? Or the factories kept open by funds from EU grants were closed at some point after those grants?
Corbyn destroyed Mays opposition against all odds in the 2017 GE. Agree he should have been tougher on the opposition and the unruly element in his own party.
May defeated May
@@voodoochile333 Brian May? James May? Which one?
I've like o'Brien generally, but I thought he was going to explain what must be some intelligent long thoughts on his problems with corbyn. What the funk was this? How can he have such weak arguments for not supporting corbyn's social policies with the alternative, by his own admission, being so horrific?
I didn't agree with the Corbyn opinion, as I was (and am) a supporter, however I accept what was said and feel the whole interview is well balanced. Enjoyed it very much. Stay safe and well everyone
OJ introducing JoB ... like a twelve year kid star-struck when he finally meets Harry Kane.
So sweet!
There’s two issues.......a corrupt media/press in the pockets of the tories, and a system built for 2 political parties were there is actually lots, so the winner wins on less than 45% of the vote share
The press is in the pockets of the Establishment of which Sir Kier Stalin is a member
So basically he held a grudge because he wouldn't go on his show !! I'm sorry I'm not listening to the likes of him !
Great debate James OB crystallizes the dilemma between Johnson and the media trashed Jeremy Corbyn
*With great respects to James, he would say nothing would improve that much under a JC-led government right now because he wouldn't understand what an extra 1-year extension on no home evictions & a giving worker's more sick pay would do for the working class and struggling lower-middle class. He is such a Social Liberal that he just doesn't engage in a thought experiment on how transformative that would be to families like mine. Or he doesn't care enough. Either way, It's nothing new. The Moderate Liberal has been like this since voting began, hence why Labour split from the Liberal Party in the first place.*
The token centre-left commentator on LBC
Just a token!
Considering the majority of the UK voting public are centre left or centre right , this seems fine to me.
@@originalbadboy32 Labour under JC was centre-left? Who was close of winning the election against Theresa May?
centre-right, more like (all centrist positions are right of centre)
@@ONeill01 who lost against two of the worst prime ministers in history? TWO!
27:50 James says that Corbyn didn't take the fight to the enemy without. What does he think Corbyn did at PMQs?
To I believe - paraphrasing somewhere else in the video - “be too nice when he was in a knife fight”
JC was completely uninspiring at PMQs. But you've not understood the point - JOb meant taking the message to people not already signed up to his beliefs. Which was most of the country.
I mean almost every single thing he says about Jeremy Corbyn here is just factually incorrect nonsense.
It really is quite odd how he can be so completely just flatly wrong.
And no, I don't think Jeremy Corbyn is messianic. That's a ridiculous and stupid thing to accuse his supporters of.
I'm just aware of the fact that he's had basically unmatched levels of unfounded bile poured on him.
And for anyone who knowns anything about leftist history in this country and around the world, it's very obvious why.
If you don't think people think Corbyn was messianic, have a look at the comments here when there's any criticism of him.
@@michaelanderson9168 Spending much of your energy pushing back against the avalanche of unreasonable criticism, which he received in extremely unusually high amounts, is not the same as viewing him as messianic.
@@TheYopogo Refusing to acknowledge the part he played in Labour's worst ever election result in over 70 years, is.
@@michaelanderson9168 Pretending that the 2019 election was not just an election loss but also somehow proves that there was never a chance for left wing change to happen and never will be is also un-factual.
These people are totally out of contact with reality.
So JOB thinks that Corbyn wouldn't have been any better than Johnson. Wow, thought he cared about poor and vulnerable people. That's floored me. Disgusting
Obrien’s one track accusations against brexiteers actually hardened their views on brexit. He loves to portray himself as a man of empathy, of which he is totally lacking. His thoughts on Corbyn are utterly baffling.
.. surely the UK has the highest death rate because people didn't/don't follow the rules.. That and questions about population density
Come off it O'Brien you prefer the Tories to a socialist alternative.
The failure is with the British who didn't understand what's Brexit
That is why you lost. Don't patronise the British people.
Go back to your London bubble
@@voodoochile333 the UK lost buddy... you're too manipulated to understand
It isn't true to say he had no ideological substance before he became leader. Corbyn may have been largely incompetent as a leader, but he had a firm ideological framework which articulated - in and of itself - legitimate and justified anger about the economic and social condition of society,.
A true meeting of tiny minds and enormous egos.
Lots of interesting discussion, but I wish you'd nailed him to the wall a bit on Jeremy Corbyn. O'Brien seems to have very strong opinions but very little in the way of actual argument, which is unusual for him!
Great interview. The one thing I never understood about James O'Brien is why he thinks Corbyn would have been SO bad of a PM. Everyone I've spoken to who didn't like Corbyn (who aren't Tories) at least concede he'd be significantly better than the alternative. I've never seen him justify this viewpoint.
EDIT: I share a lot of Owen's criticisms of Corbyn and some of James O'Brien. My hope for Corbyn wasn't deluded or filling an empty vessel. He is just an objectively decent human being in a political scene where that is very rare. He was my absolute bare minimum of what I expect from a politician. Most others are so far below my minimum bar.
“To be clear, I’m not trying to associate him with the views of David Irvine” - but of course that’s exactly what you’re doing. You are just worried about being sued for libel if you make it too explicit.
This is what civilised disagreement looks like, shame it couldn’t have been a bit longer.
Jeremy spoke to Andrew Neil ! More than Boris did!
Boris is a Coward that’s what he is 😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡
I think the Remain campaign could have overcome what James talks about around 18 mins, by contesting the WW2 / patriotism rhetoric. If you ask those old enough to actually remember the war, they overwhelmingly supported Remain because they did not want to return to a time when we were enemies.
"Corbyn is an empty vessel" what is he on about
Classic projection of the Trumpian kind.
Probably on about the two elections he lost in his 5 years
@@jameskeller4239 that still makes absolutely no F’in sense! 🤣🤦🏽♂️ Johnson is the empty vessel, the man who blows with the wind. 🙄😷
He’s never achieved anything.
Can't help thinking that the immigration issue is the wrong one to focus on, given that it was austerity that made people lash out
Economic hardship is the same driver for all the anti immigration noise in the USA
Make the economy work for everyone and everyone will be happy
It's just a tool. A target, a black sheep for especially right-wing politics. You can see it in many countries. And while immigration might cause some issues they're generally far smaller than larger more structural issues. And far too many people are suceptible to such rhetoric.
I have been both an admirer and critic of James O Brien despite his views about Corbyn. He is eloquent, thoughtful, witty and irascible in an interesting way.
But above all, James O Brien is a man who knows how to look sincere being insincere.
He has a mastery of disingenuity rivalled by no other.
Listen to his interesting answer about Keir Starmer.
Does anyone think he would have his well paid job at LBC if he supported Corbyn he was a genuine "leftie"?
Two no marks🤮
The opening point about "cheaters never prosper" not being true and the horror of watching actual real-life villains like the Tories/GOP etc. getting away with everything all the time, is at the heart of my own politics.
I'm educated in philosophy, politics, economics and all that stuff but at the end of the day, the fire in me and often my rage and passion in politics comes from just being utterly and endlessly furious at well... liars. Just plain greedy, selfish, myopic, sadistic liars.
Sometimes it overtakes my critical thinking and I'll become quite emotional, but I think thats not a bad thing. You need a moral sense, and a center of integrity to have any kind of defense against grifters and political conmen.
I'm left-wing not really because it makes more sense socio-economically (and it does because I've actually done the reading), but because my own honest, open-minded deep dive into the discourse revealed that an overwhelming majority of the liars and scam artists are and have always been conservative, theocratic, corporatist, aristocratic, regressive, sadistic, right wingers.
@@hmq9052 Thanks.
And yeh, it feels iffy because the 'middle' as been dragged right over the last 40 years so what seems 'lefty' now or gets branded as 'extremist left' is actually, not that bad if you look into it. Especially in US discourse. What is considered left in the US either center-right everywhere else or *barely* center-left.
On the moral duty sense, I'd agree too. I'm a lefty because, at the heart of it, people should be more important than profits. The economy should serve us, not the other way around.
majority of the liars and scam artists are and have always been conservative, theocratic, corporatist, aristocratic, regressive, sadistic, right wingers.
17
You forgot to mention mealy mouthed journalists.
@@jamesbingham7395 Yeh, the media too. Well, not ALL of it. But most of it that just serves the establishment and doesn't ever question it.
Another problem with Labour at the moment is that the shadow cabinet is all too shadowy to the point of invisibility. Where are the impressive and inspiring Labour politicians?
I want the name of O'Briens hair stylist, could it be Blind Pugh.
Hair cuts/styles are illegal bruda. Same as pints.
Stevie Wonder?
James O'brien had to step down from BBC, because he didn't want to stop criticizing brexit/brexiteers and Trump. What does this say about bbc???
incorrect, he chose to leave the BBC. there is a difference. And on Brexit, he seems to have been completely correct.
@@easy1355 want to be smart about it, try and explain what "had to step down means". When did i write he was forced to?
@@Ianthe22 His conscience, in other words his ability to speak freely meant that he had to make a choice. I really didn't think it was that hard.
Mr O'Brien I have listened to your show for years, your repeated & relentless excoriating of hardcore Brexit supporters on national radio is legendary: the put-downs & humiliations...It didn't help, in fact it mostly had the opposite effect of what you intended: it just enraged & entrenched many.
31:28 Except that isn't true, he came close in 2017
So close that people like O'Brien did everything they could to prevent a Corbyn-led government.
JOB doesn't care! he'll be ok but the rest of us probably won't be!
@@Pfth Couldn't agree more
So James would want to chose between two right wing governments
He’s 100% a liberal, this is absolutely what he wants.
As a Leave voter I attended a Remain rally to see what arguments they advanced. I couldn't believe how much the Leave speakers came down to hatred. No attempt to advance arguments yet alone "lovebomb",
haha james' argument against corbyn was an empty vessel of an argument
If you want the tories out which is fair... That Jeremy Bloke is a bit funny - James OBrien
Interesting that JO’B appears to be the only one who knows the truth. The most annoying, nauseating, know-it-all .
More focus on policy instead of personality which is a gift to the right .
I thought this was excellent, Owen. We need more respectful disagreement in interviews, not shouting into the echo chamber or screaming down each other's throats. These sort of interviews are the way forward to encourage nuanced discourse across the spectrum. Keep it up!
JOB is very honest about Corbyn and Corbynism and I agree with him..
Bus services only cost £4 billion a year to operate, out of total GDP (national income) of £2.2 trillion last year. Why has Labour not promised to make that free? That would be a huge vote winner in rural communities.
I'm in huge agreement with this but I feel this would be deemed as more 'free stuff' by the right, you'd have to at least run on a watered down version like "heavily subsidised buses for the most cut off regions" etc
You don’t understand what GDP is, we don’t have 2.2 trillion to spend .
It’s the difference between turnover and net profit
The British state has to borrow £50 Billion every year... so that’s means we make a massive ‘loss’ as a country.
@@heathen9945 "we don't have 2.2 trillion to spend"
I said that GDP as a whole is £2.2 trillion, not necessarily that we had £2.2 trillion of spare money to spend. Defence takes up about £40 billion alone, spending on gambling £20 billion, spending on smoking/cigarettes £20.7 billion last year etc. Any of these could have money diverted from it or taxed and diverted into making bus transport free, which according to Google cost £3.77 billion last year.
Try reading Thomas sowell basic economics (that’s not a insult ) he’s a African American economist and explains economic myths superbly . Changed my thinking
@@fishyface3940 how can it be free if we have to borrow £50 billion a year. Nothing is free . It’s all paid for by tax payers
JO'B has a personal problem with Corbyn - maybe because Corbyn snubbed him. JO'B: "If he wouldn't talk to me, who would he talk to?" Answer: Andrew Neil. Nick Robinson. Andrew Marr. John Humphrys. etc. etc.
Everyone either hated Jeremy or we're cultists, except James of course because he's so burdened with insight. He's the only one capable of a nuanced critique, which is that he is an empty vessel and equivalent to Boris Johnson. Any comments to the contrary are not nuanced!