It’s come to my attention that this video I posted on my conversion to Orthodoxy has gotten a lot of interaction and responses. So I wanted to clarify a few points. This video is not apologetic. I am not interested at this time in doing Orthodox apologetics. Not because I think this would be an unworthy endeavor, but because this work has and is being done by competent thinkers such as Jay Dyer @JayDyer and Ubi Petrus @ubipetrus3882 among others. It would take an extraordinary amount of time and energy for me to match let alone surpass their existing work. It would be superfluous for me to engage in apologetic discourse so I would defer and direct others to their outstanding work. Personally, my philosophical disposition is not so much toward logic, metaphysics, and epistemology (truth and our ability to come to apprehend it) though I have studied these extensively; but, toward ethics and existentialism (living truthfully and meaningfully). Yes, you should seek to know the truth, particularly in matters ecclesiological (cf. the above-mentioned apologists), but my video was about my process of coming to live the truths I had been convinced of. Any arguments I made in that video are not so much according to logos but ethos. I sought to sketch my own process of bringing my own life and labors into accord with my convictions. Thus, the arguments I make are not strictly logical but ethical. Namely: stop living and propagating a lie. If you are an Eastern Catholic who believes modern Roman Catholic ecclesiology is erroneous, act like it. Stop trying to cultivate an “Orthodox in Catholic Union” ecclesiology if Rome has already dogmatically precluded it. Stop presenting Eastern Catholicism as Orthodoxy. Yes, because it’s logically incoherent, but more to my point, it keeps people who would otherwise become Orthodox stuck in an unworkable situation as I was for over a decade. Life is too short, the hour too dark, and the tasks at hand too monumental to be bogged down in such cognitive dissonance. My argument is an ethical appeal to Eastern Catholics, come, join us…for the sake of your own working out of salvation and if you are so inclined, for the sake of building up the Body of Christ. For an overview of how I see that task, check out this outline on my Substack: open.substack.com/pub/raymondvincent/p/culture-and-community-creation-as?r=1pdsa9&
It is ironic to hear this because the the emperor john viii to the last emperor Constantine xi, the patriarchs of the east and the overwhelming majority of eastern clergy, including metropolitans of kiev and bishops of the east including moscow accepted the Catholic faith fully in the council of florence. It was the ottoman mehmet ii who replaced the patriarch of Constantinople with a weak bishop and bishops in the Ottoman Empire to oppose the union with rome. The eastern Christians are in such a bad shape because of their disobedience to the definitive teaching of the church in an ecumenical council. I encourage you to read Cantate Domino of Eugene iv and see for yourself what the emperors and 500 bishops assented to
@@jperez7893 Actually only Constantinople accepted the council of Florence. Kiev was part of the Church of Constantinople at that time btw. In fact, The Patriarch of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria in an Orthodox council ex-communicated Constantinople and anyone in Union with Rome a few years after the Council of Florence. A few years after that, Constantinople admitted it was in error and backtracked from the council of Florence and rejoined the Eastern patriarchs. As far as the Emperor in concerned, he was just trying to save his dying Empire, his motivations where political, not theological. Everyone knows this. Nice try though.
Hey Mario! Can you tell me how you currently see St. Charbel? I've been praying to him for guidance as I discern the correct choice between Rome and Orthodoxy. Are Maronites like Melkites, "Orthodox in communion with Rome"? I would love to hear from you and inquire about your journey.
@@aeternusromanus Maronites would not typically claim that same language as the Melkites do, Maronites typically pride themselves on having a perpetual union with rome, which is historically very cloudy and not really accurate. I dont see Charbel Makhlouf as a saint, since he wasnt canonized by the Orthodox Church thus I obey the Church. Typically he is seen as a national icon and people of lebanese descent have a big attachment to him, but thats not the best way to approach how one views what the saints are, it becomes rather nationalistic in my opinion, where your lebanese identity is put in question for not believing in him as a saint, it can get rather childish in my opinion and emotional.
Can you please show me one document from tradition or from the Ecumenical councils where the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church ever identified itself as the *Ανατολική Ορθόδοξη Εκκλησία*
Thank you for uploading this video. I am a Protestant who has been discerning between returning to Catholicism as a Greek Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxy, and this insight is very valuable to this journey I am on. I have been attending an EO parish for the last couple of months, but am earnestly continuing forward in search of the truth. God bless.
so, you have willingly joined a church that has proven not to be catholic, structurally divided, unable to overcome the petty dividions of national jurisdiction, and has not been able to gather a ecumenical council since a millennia? because odf spirituality??
@@silveriorebelo2920 no, I’ve joined the Catholic Church united in a common orthodox faith despite the fact that there has always been and will likely always be difficulties between jurisdictions. This is preferable to what exists in the Roman Catholic Church which is a mere juridical unity masking profound and insurmountable doctrinal and mortal anarchy and confusion. Merely submitting to the bishop of Rome is not what makes the church Catholic.
@@silveriorebelo2920 no, I’ve joined the Catholic Church united in a common orthodox faith despite the fact that there has always been and will likely always be difficulties between jurisdictions. This is preferable to what exists in the Roman Catholic Church which is a mere juridical unity masking profound and insurmountable doctrinal and mortal anarchy and confusion. Merely submitting to the bishop of Rome is not what makes the church Catholic.
@@silveriorebelo2920 And about "not having an ecumenical council" during the 2nd millennium: an ecumenical council was always proclaimed by the Roman emperor and we kept that tradition the last one was the 9th Ecumenical Council in 1341-1351. Afterwards because there was no longer a Roman Emperor the councils that were held were named Panorthodox.
Hi, Thanks for presenting your transition. I was RC for 62 years, & a former RCC nun. I did attend a Ruthenian parish for awhile before converting to ROCOR . I have been Russian Orthodox for 14 years now. I did struggle with the 2 bastions of theology & apologetics too. What convinced me to convert was very simple analysis of history. Around the 1600s the political situation in the Balkans was such that large swaths of Orthodox regions were threatened by the Ottomans & they sought protection from RC rulers at the cost of giving up their Orthodox Faith for the RCC theologies. They made decisions based for their survival. So they had a lot of ambiguity & dissonance as a result. I saw so much more integrity in Eastern Orthodoxy than in Eastern Catholicism. They had to be very clever to bridge 2 world views on theology. So just the historical facts were enough to convince me to leave the Ruthenians for the Russians. I have invested a lot of prayer & study learning Eastern Orthodox theology & phronema. It is life giving & grace filled, authentic & cohesive. I congratulate you on your move & conversion. Perhaps at some point you will become so penetrated with Orthodoxy that you may accept a call to the diaconate. There is a very good online seminary program with ROCOR in Chicago that our priest attended & our Reader is just beginning now. 🙏🙏🙏 I will pray for you.
Thank you for such a detailed comment. It gives me hope. I want to find a spiritual father and ROCOR church but I'm living where there isn't either so not sure what I should be doing in the meantime. Can I go to a Greek Orthodox Church until I move to another town? I am inspired to look into the Rutherians now! God bless you!🙏🏼☦
Glad to hear your story! I too was Roman Catholic and had discerned becoming a monk. Last year I converted to Orthodoxy, and have not regretted it. Are you a nun in the Orthodox Church?
@@rigavitch I attend a Greek Orthodox Church, I'd recommend you go. The differences between ROCOR and the Greeks are between hierarchs but the same worship and theology.
I too started in teh Ruthian Church, but after reading the definitive history the Slavic unite movement "Crisis and Reform" by Bishop Gudziak...I became Melkite.
I became Orthodox in an odd way. I just decided to go to a Greek Parish one Sunday and I have only missed 5 Liturgies since that Sunday. I don't regret it. Lord Jesus Christ, Ibn Allah, Have Mercy on me A Sinner.
I started going to a Greek parish over a year ago and have only missed twice both were vacations. Haven't missed any other Sundays either. Absolutely love it there.
The Latin trad refugees used to drive me so crazy before I became an Orthodox Catachumen. My old parish had several families who wanted to go to liturgy and have their infant children receive communion, but would reject a change of rite and the theology of the eastern Catholic Churches. It’s like cafeteria Catholicism where you pick and choose what you like and don’t like.
So many people in EC parishes are also there as a “marital compromise.” It was so demoralizing. In the end, people can’t live on a bridge, you either take up shelter under it, or make your way across it. And loving the “best of both worlds” just means your perpetually torn or schizophrenic. It wasn’t until I actually because Orthodox that I fully realized how unhealthy that was.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 I can imagine. I'm glad that I only discovered that there was a uniate Church in my uni town after I converted to Orthodoxy. I could have seen my self at the hight of my fustration with RC and it's trads joining it and be traped for a few years in it. Glory to God that that didn't happen
I was Maronite, and because my parish was very latinized and started incorporating byzantine icons for some reason to de latinize itself. I had so many issues there, for example we have maronite nuns in our parish and they distribute communion to the faithful. Which makes no sense liturgically and piety wise. And at that time i had a growing infatuation with byzantine catholicism and wanted to become Melkite and do a rite change just because the byzantine aesthetics made me feel good. I went to a melkite liturgy and absolutely hated it. Nothing about it made me feel what I felt when i meditated on becoming a byzantine catholic. And so i began my journey looking into Orthodoxy in a more genuine way rather than listening to Lofton or Catholic answers and pints with aquinas, and on sunday of forgiveness, after like 3 or 4 months of studying (reading books, watching debates, apologetical articles etc) i walked into an antiochian parish. Eastern Catholicism as it stands is very unstable but also very unsafe, because nothing about it seems set in stone since the Pope can determine your tradition without even having any knowledge or connection to it because Vatican 1 says so. It’s not logical and historically sound.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 I like your analogy of a bridge as something people use to walk over, or live under as homeless. However, it made me think of London Bridge (... is falling down, my fair Lady). People used to live on that bridge for centuries and it became very cluttered. I think it was brought down in the 1800s and replaced to get rid of those living on the bridge, as it couldn't be reasonably repaired (or reformed) with all those unwelcome inhabitants. At least you crossed over, not that Italian Rubicon to plunder Gaul in the name of Rome, but that Jordan river to enter the promised land. Curiously, as another aside on the theme of London Bridge, it apparently was pulled down by a viking in 1014, the very year the German King Henry got the Pope to officially adopt the Filioque heresy into the Creed, which prompted Constantinople to break communion with Rome. That was the real beginning and cause of the separation of East and West, which was essentially a political move to drive the East Romans out of Italy and to consolidate the German kingdom as the Holy Roman Empire. Papal supremacy and the Donation of Constantine (originally actually the donation of Pepin) were the final response of the Vatican forty years later to this rebuke. This donation by Pepin and then Charlemagne was lands plundered from the Romans in Italy (with their capital in Constantinople) and then donated to the Bishop of Rome as tax revenue, for the purpose of driving a wedge between the Roman State and the Bishop of Rome. The Arian Filioque and Gothic ambitions in regard to possessing the Roman empire are the real causes of the separation of East and West, and not an internal problem of Old and New Rome going their own ways motivated by their own traditions. The separation of East and West Rome was carefully nurtured by the Gothic kingdoms of the West, especially by the East Franks and the Gothic Lombards (later the Germans) who had lands in Italy itself. This separation was not a Roman problem primarily, but a Gothic (and Frankish) Arian invasion and supplanting problem. Papal supremacy and infallibility are the end result of Rome refusing to repent for the Filioque error. Research the Life of Ulfilas by the Latin Arian Bishop Auxentius. Therein you will see that the Filioque was originally an Arian or Pnevmatomachi heresy, which was defeated at the Second Ecumenical Council. Because the Arians regarded the Spirit as a created power, therefore the Spirit had to exist (proceed) of the Father through and by means of the Son, since all things that were created, were made through the Son. This is why the Ecumenical Council added to the Nicaean Creed that the Spirit proceeds from the Father. Thus, the Spirit could not be a creature, because the Spirit according to the Orthodox does not have his being by means of the Son, through whom all creation has its being. Since the Spirit exists of the Father (directly), therefore, the Spirit is God of God, and of one essence with the Father, without using those terms. The Filioque entered the texts of Orthodox Latin Fathers in a way similar to how the donation of Pepin was turned into the Donation of Constantine - forgeries and interpolations. As Orthodox we must stand resolutely against the Filioque, and we must oppose the politicisation of the Church for the imperial or nationalist ambitions of any peoples wanting to seize the Roman empire, which is now sadly gone. It is time to recognise that Catholicity and Orthodoxy are one, and have never separated, and that the Orthodox tradition is not a merely Eastern tradition. It is Catholic. It is time to recognise the insidious role played by the Frankish and Arian Gothic kingdoms in opposing the East Romans and Orthodox theology, and in dividing Latins and Greeks in the Roman world. Had the Goths and Slavs converted to the Orthodox Catholic Church, instead of the Goths attempting to take possession of the Roman legacy, Europe would have been a peaceful and beautiful Paradise. Instead Europe was divided, and the Roman Pope fell from the Catholic Church, as Adam fell from Paradise, and Lucifer fell from Heaven. Very tragic with the same tragic results for mankind.
Nice testimony! I am also a former Roman Catholic who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy since September 2022; I am under the jurisdiction of Constantinople.
"You cannot put new wine in old wineskins." You experienced the realization that for continued growth that your life had to return to the faith that was passed down. I came from a completely non liturgical background and Orthodoxy really found me. I appreciate this authentic confession. God Bless you in your path to salvation!
I converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism nearly 20 yrs ago but I still have much love and respect for Eastern Catholics and their devotion and many whose relatives suffered in Eastern Europe when the communists forced them into the Orthodox Church to control them
Welcome home ! 33 yrs ago after wallowing in the muddy waters of the post Latin reformation of 1965 I was received into the fullness of the Orthodox Church ! Never looked back .
*Why did Raymond Vincent convert from Eastern Catholicism to Orthodox Christianity?* 1:02 Apologies for the low quality of the video 1:22 A Stalled Out Vocation is not what happened. • Theology Degree and M.Div 2:02 Raymond’s former bishop had announced his retirement. 2:52 He did not become Orthodox because his vocation stalled out. It was an _indirect_ cause not a direct cause. 3:31 It was a decade of really bad clergy. Just because the clergy were bad did not disvalidate the claims of the church. Many were great mentors pastors friends, still today. 4:22 Idk if maintaining the relationships is tenable anymore. But Raymond believes that by the way Eastern Catholicism is structured, it makes bad clergy a systemic problem. 5:07 You get the leftovers of Roman Catholicism. 5:37 Tradition vs Progressive wing 6:18 It’s still very much affected. The bad clergy are a byproduct. The good clergy deacons monks either (1) privately admit to you they don’t believe papal claims (2) keep questions ambiguous 7:42 If Orthodoxy was the best parts of Eastern Catholicism, why continue to maintain relations 9:25 2 Theological Degrees at a Catholic University. 10:25 You have to have the vocation within the vocation. Something motivating that. 11:11 I could not leave issues in the vauge ether. 12:40 To sidestep Vatican 1, it requires siding with Jesuits. 14:39 Liturgy, Theology, Spirituality. A complete matrix of experience. 16:33 Divine Liturgy 17:34 Exhausted trying to make a parish survivable. • Landscaping • Paying the bills • caused a crisis 20:41 Raymond could no longer devote his life to it. 21:08 Jay Day and Ubi Petras 21:55 Raymond was friendly and cordial. It was “I couldn’t invest in this project anymore.” 24:02 Eastern Catholicism, Roman Catholicism, Pope Francis, the straw that broke the camel’s back. 25:57 26:47 Bridge Church “walk over them or live under them because they’re homeless.” 28:37 “we’re just miles apart theologically.” 30:22 Genuine acceptance 31:06 Not claiming Orthodoxy has better clergy. 32:07 Human Failings continue. Orthodoxy is prepared to account for those failings 32:52 Orthodoxy has a future 33:54 Being in union
Shameful and Sad. Walks away from the Church Jesus established for a group of persons who are simply disobedient to what Jesus himself created. Walks way because of bad clergy lol Pathetic but then i get it. If you think Jesus would establish a visible Church without a visible structure then you not only reject his words but also you reject the OT structure where it all began. You are a weak person is what it comes down to. You are Pathetic for walking away from his Church based on what some clergy have done or are doing. The Church is Holy by virtue of Jesus and not the priests or bishops or even the pope so your logic fails.
I took the same journey from Roman Catholicism, through the Eastern Catholic Churches (actually "rites" under a Cardinal bureaucrat of the Roman Curia, whether he is an Eastern Rite Patriarch or not, appointed by Rome) to Holy Orthodoxy back in 1988.
Thank you for sharing, been a Protestant for 14 years, began looking into church history 2 years ago. Been primarily reading from the orthodox study Bible and have been to Orthodox Church, and recently been visiting Byzantine Catholic Church trying to figure out where to go. Some of the things you have shared I’ve seen as I’ve been trying to find my place within the ancient church. Thank you for sharing
As a former refugee, I had no idea how common it is for trad Latin rites to attend eastern divine liturgy. I want to hear more about how you were able to accept major differences between eastern Catholic theology and Orthodoxy like purgatory, contraception, Papal primacy and the understanding of grace.
Simply, Melkites don't really believe in purgatory, papal primacy (in the Vat 1 sense), or created grace. The only thing I really did need I had to come to accept was that my Eastern Catholic Church was not actually Orthodox.
@@henrylansing9734 I may be wrong but I remember reading Melkite saying they disagree with Rome's stand on divorce and they still hold onto the believe of divorce and remarriage but they dont do it because Rome said no, there was a civil war in Eparchy of Newton some years ago too
Hi Raymond. I particularly like your approach. Leaving EC without having to bash everything you experienced there. This is a foundation of a normal and stable life within the EOC. God bless and welcome home!
I was also Melkite, and converted to Orthodoxy. Just like you, I had a very traditionalist mindset, but it was hard for me to reconcile the legitimate dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church with Eastern Catholicism; as both have two conflicting theologies. What you said is true about the clergy rejecting the papal claims and Roman dogmas, because I have spoken with several clergyman in the Melkite Church that would admit that there really is no good reason to be in communion with Rome. About the Eastern Catholics taking the left overs of Roman Catholicism; I 100% agree. Many Latins that were fed up with their church’s progressiveness would flee to our uniate churches. It was a tragic situation since what they thought would be a refuge for those that desire Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy would only be the same as what they had in the Latin Church, if not worse. (I’ve personally seen Holy Communion being given in Dixie cups during COVID with the approval of the former bishop, and even seen tons of Jesuit / Opus Dei influences in the theology of the clergy). Let us not forget that the Eparchy of Newton had a civil war a couple years ago regarding divorce and remarriage; with those favoring the more EO position being in favor of compromising the traditional Catholic position (no surprise), while the rivals considered them to be enemies of the Catholic Church. (Ironically, these were also the same ones saying that they were fully EO in communion with Rome - yet they condemned the EO approach to this matter). I’ve concluded that the Zoghby position, and Unitism as a whole - and trying to find a way to justify the theological differences etc., was nothing more than cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics. God bless.
Shameful and Sad. Walks away from the Church Jesus established for a group of persons who are simply disobedient to what Jesus himself created. Walks way because of bad clergy lol Pathetic but then i get it. If you think Jesus would establish a visible Church without a visible structure then you not only reject his words but also you reject the OT structure where it all began. You are a weak person is what it comes down to. You are Pathetic for walking away from his Church based on what some clergy have done or are doing. The Church is Holy by virtue of Jesus and not the priests or bishops or even the pope so your logic fails.
@@Catholicism_the_Solution If you believe that Jesus Christ established the Roman Catholic Church, then I’m afraid you are deeply lost and risking your salvation. Your church is showing it’s true fruits which Jesus warned against, and it’s evident by the amount of blasphemy and heresy being promoted in Rome. You can insult me all you like, but I pray God opens your eyes to His Truth. God bless you.
@@StoleBearer Negative. You are the one risking your salvation because you are the one who walked away from what Jesus established. He established a Church under St Peter the Rock who is the leader of this visible Church on earth. Yes yes yes try and twist " Oh but all the apostles were equal " all the apostles did not get the KEY only St Peter did. Keep living in delusion by telling yourself this is not true. No insults are hurled at you , truth is simply being talked. You can sit here all day till you are blue in the face claiming First among equal nonsense go for it , but it is blatantly obvious that any structure within society needs a HEAD and One who is above all. Keep being disobedient
Thank you for sharing. This was very interesting. I became Christian (Protestant) in college. Then I went to bible school to become a worship pastor, and then I became incredibly confused by all different interpretations of scripture and by how many different denominations there are. I Had a friend that was Orthodox, and he invited me to a liturgy. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Best decision of my life. I was baptized and Chrismated two Years ago! I sometimes research Catholicism just to see what’s on the other side of the fence so to speak. Thank you for sharing! Out of curiosity, as an eastern catholic, were you accepted into orthodoxy through Christmation or did you have to be baptized as well?
Glad to hear about your conversion. In our situation (as long-time Melkites practicing Orthodoxy), and because we have raised our family exclusively in this tradition. It was determined that the appropriate way for us to be received was a public confession, renunciation of uniatism, and chrismation.
Well said and reasoned out. I left Rome for theological and ecclesiological reasons 50 year ago. This current papacy is the apex of all the bad thinking coming to fulfillment. Orthodoxy is stable and respects Tradition. If an Orthodox Patriarch said "you are no longer permitted to celebrate the liturgy we have been celebrating for 1900 years" he would find himself out the door. The Roman papacy needs to become a constitutional one to safeguard the Tradition of the Church. I feel very sorry for the Catholic Traditionalists... they should consider the Orthodox Western Rite.
Sadly, most traditional Latin Catholics are stuck on preserving pre-Vatican II Catholicism, with all its post schism theology, eccesiology, feasts, and devotions. There are a quite a few Western Rite Orthodox parishes that have carried a lot of that baggage into Orthodoxy. To be authentically Orthodox, that baggage has to go. Orthodoxy is not a refuge for former traditional Catholics to nostalgically preserve pre-Vatican II Catholicism. It is to become ORTHODOX, whether Byzantine or Western Rite.
An interesting issue, though it may never materialize is that the last 3 popes have all said that unification between the Orthodox and Rome could be done without Papal supremacy over the east (which I take to mean administrative supremacy, ie. being able to manage diocese of the east. Benedict even said that the Pope never had a relationship of administrative supremacy over the Eastern diocese). The Pope currently however does exercise administrative supremacy at least in principle over the Eastern Catholics though he doesn't push it much, he does hold to that authority and the Eastern Catholics tend to accept it, but "request" strong administrative privileges. So Rome actually officially sees the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates in those regions as being superior in authority, at least in some regard, to the Eastern Catholic Bishops and diocese in those areas, since Popes have claimed they don't require or deserve administrative supremacy over the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates in principle. I wonder how the Eastern Catholics view that situation. A few other issues. The Catholic Catechism says that the Orthodox statement of the creed sans filioque is not heretical but a matter of emphasis that only the Father is Unoriginate, so the Spirit is completely breathed by the Father, but only co-breathed by the Son, rather than completely co-breathed by the Father and the Son, essential too since the Spirit hovered independent of the word of creation. If the Catholics really believe that today, they have moved to the Orthodox view of the filioque, though there are some Catholic apologists who insist that the Spirit is the "eternal love shared between the Father and the Son" which of course contradicts the distinction and necessity of both the Spirit and the Word, Second, Orthodox don't really disagree that Mary was immaculately conceived. Orthodox simply hold that conceptions, in general are not "in-immaculate" so Mary's needs not be any different in that respect that yours or mine. It was miraculous, but the guilt of original sin isn't passed down through conception, rather fallen human nature, the disease of sin is present in flesh and matter. So the real issue there is the concept of sin and salvation, in which Orthodox primarily view the incarnation, death and resurrection and glorification as a process of restoring fallen human nature and creating a passover from death to life and from earth to heaven, and the Romans see it as a legal sacrifice for forgiveness, ie removal of guilt. Orthodox see sins as being forgiven by the Father upon repentance, but the necessity for restoration of humans to their former glory, and beyond. Most of the Roman error in this regard is due to the myopically legalistic Latin language and the legal versus full meaning of terms like justification and righteousness, and "covering" our sin (legally or covering our fallen human nature in his blood). The main problem is Papal "doctrinal supremacy" where the Pope put himself above the councils, not just as leader but outranking the entirety of the rest of the bishops in matters of doctrine. There may be no way to undo papal doctrinal supremacy and it clearly goes against the prior teachings of Holy Popes who affirmed the supremacy of ecumenical councils even though many were not even presided over by Popes, as well as the fact that the Pope was "informed" of the rulings of councils but not asked by them to be ratified.
Hey I think this is Interesting. I'm a Ukrainian convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, and on my journey, I never even considered the Eastern Church. The Uniates have a terrible reputation in Ukraine and Russia. I've met a ton of people who converted to Orthodoxy from the Uniate church just by studying history. So I wonder what these tradcath larpers who go to Eastern Churches would say to them...
Interesting, I’ve never heard that before (about the Uniate reputation in Ukraine). Could you speak a little more about that, or direct me somewhere with more information?
Very wonderful video. Thank you for sharing. One minor critique though: I wish you would’ve talked more about why you became convinced that Orthodoxy is true instead of just focusing on why Uniatism is wrong for the entire video. The presentation kinda makes it seem like you just converted FROM Uniatism rather than TO Orthodoxy. Obviously I’m sure that’s not actually what happened and that you’re not just some shallow “refugee from Papism” convert to Orthodoxy, since that is one of the main issues you brought up about Uniatism itself. Perhaps you could make a follow up video explaining why you came to see Orthodoxy as the true faith, rather than just explaining why you came to see Uniatism as false? Just a thought.
Good insight. I think I would say that the Eastern Catholic circles is was in (Melkite) understood themselves to be Orthodox. I because convinced Orthodoxy was true 12-13 years ago. The real conversion was to the eastern church. That is to say, I understood my conversion to Orthodoxy as talking place when I became Melkite. It just took me a long time to come to grips with the fact that my church was not actually Orthodox.
@@SaintNicholasFan exactly, and then got stuck there. There are a lot of crypto-Orthodox believers stuck in the ECs just trying to ignore the best they can the cognitive dissonance. A lot of time it’s because of family or social ties. Pray for these people, they just need to take the plunge.
Thomas from St Elias here. I guess you finished your work there, sorry I didn’t get to say goodbye. I hope that you and your family are doing well. I hope to see you if you visit. Take care.
Hello Thomas, good to hear form you. Actually the work at St. Elias is not finished, we just wanted to get the bulk of it done before the Bishop's visit. I should be installing a few more murals in the next few mounts. We are just at another parish, as you know, we live way out in the country, so St. Elias' became quite difficult to attend for the family. But send me an email and we can catch up some time when I'm in town.
@@justrubio3121 you obviously didn’t listen to the video, or your a troll. I was Melkite for a decade. The picture in the thumbnail is me serving at a liturgy with the Melkite Patriarch.
I have been continually a Latin Catholic throughout all this time, and also an admirer and promoter of St John Fisher’s Prayer for Holy Bishops. The maker of this video would appear to have done U-turns on the validity of my baptism and confirmation, and on John Fisher’s sainthood. Any reason why? To track down the prayer which I mention, highlight or select it with your mouse, right-click and then left-click to search for it on the Internet. Say it on the four Ember Saturdays and also on June 22 and December 29. Now should I stop saying this prayer?
Being part of the Eastern Orthodox Church or it’s formal designation Orthodox Catholic, should not be done because suddenly Roman Catholicism or Protestantism is no more to our liking so we attempt to switch to Eastern Orthodoxy because there is nothing left to choose from. Being part of the Eastern Orthodox tradition takes years and years , attitudes, behaviour, mindset, world view and need to be aligned ( Pronema ) to what Jesus Christ actually instructed passed through Apostolic tradition- the Eastern Orthodox/ Orthodox Catholic Church. I have seen very enthusiastic replies in a lot of RUclips videos, the real challenge is stop watching and attend / participate within the Eastern Orthodox Church as a start. Again, being a true Eastern Orthodox- Orthodox Catholic , formal designation that people seem to forget will take a lifetime of adjustment, humility and trust in GOD/ Jesus Christ, NOT our human rational minds . Just a couple of thoughts I wonted to share and no , this is not a sermon or acting righteous- it’s just the TRUTH. Thank you for your patience
@@avvlahos42 100% I think people are starved into Orthodoxy, given what is missing in Protestantism and Catholicism. That’s not necessarily a bad start…but it is just a start. Ultimately what brings you into the Church must be Christ and possibility of salvation. Which as you said is a lifelong transformative process. In other words, life in Christ.
I would love to move to orthodoxy. With what’s going on with the Synod I think the Catholic Church is going to move way left. This would be a fantastic opportunity for converts “if” Orthodoxy can move away from being so ethnic centered and more Orthodox centered. I’ve tried several Orthodox churches …Greek, Russian, Romanian bit the language barrier really detracts from the liturgy for my family. We just feel left out and not getting what we need. If the Orthodox Church would move to English only liturgy or a split liturgy one English and another in the ethnic language I think Orthodoxy would boom. Especially if the Roman church makes a hard left turn
All Eastern Orthodox use John Chrysostom Liturgy expect on special occasions like Christmas Eve we use Saint Bails. You can get a copy of the both Liturgies in English as well a copies of English side by side with Church Slovakia or other languages. Antiochian and OCA parishes mostly speak English and are mostly converts. I go to one of the few OCA parishes that speaks most Slavonic but went to a sister church that was all in English for a couple months before so I became very familiar with the Liturgy. I also sing the the choir so that helps. Lauague really shouldn't be a hangup but if it is there are resources to help. Most of the world does not speak English so most Liturgies are not English, to expect most parishes to mostly speak in a language foreign to its people for the sake of you is not really the best way to think about it.
It seems to me too things really matter two you The Liberlaisation of Rome and "getting somthing" out of a service. Don't get me wrong, I want you to be orthdox but neither of these reasons are good reasons to convert.
As a Catholic attending a Ukranian Catholic Church (Byzantine) It is not because I am a refugee from a Latin Parish. Also my reasons for believing in Eastern Catholic Churches being in Full Communion with the Catholic Church is also not because of Vatican 1. (Although I do believe it is consistant with all previous Ecumenical Councils). I am in Australia and a number of the problems of Eastern Catholic Churches that you mentioned, I have not encountered them here in the Eastern Catholic Churches here in Australia. I think some of the issues you raised are particular to Canada and the The United States, especially the United States. Although I do believe the Orthodox expressions of Liturgy, architecture, practices and theological expressions etc are present in the Catholic Communion through the Eastern Catholic Churches, the main reason, the primary reason is because I found that from the Bible and also from the Church Fathers of the First Millenium, the Primacy and Chief position of the Authority of the See of Rome in relation to all other Churches of the First Millenium, is best represented and found in its fullest expression in the Communion of the Catholic Church today, which includes Communion with and recognising the Authority of the Successor of St Peter in the Roman See.
Hello David, I to did not become an Eastern Catholic for liturgical reasons. When I was Roman Catholic I attended the cathedral parish which had very high-quality traditional liturgy: Gregorian propers, polyphonic mass setting with full choir, organ, and clouds of incense. I was not a liturgical refugee and it actually took me some time to get used to Byzantine liturgy. I became an EAstern Catholic for theological reasons. After many of the Church Fathers and contemporary Orthodox theologians (and one or two Roman Catholic theologians including the late Pope Benedict) I became convinced that the Eastern theological tradition was the better. I had entered this tradition even if I at first thought the liturgy was odd. I think in regions were uniateism originated, and has been wedded to an ethnic or national identity. The Byzantine liturgy is just part of the heritage, and a catholic (as differentiated from Orthodox) is part of a national identity. But when uniateism comes to the western world and people who are not connected to it historically start to explore it, that’s when you get the situations I have described. When, as is the situation in the US and Canada, you love the Eastern tradition but Orthodoxy is readily available, you don’t have any ethnic or nationalist incentives to maintain a catholic identic, and you come to believe the Roman Church has fallen into grave error…uniateism starts to not make a lot of sense.
This has been my experience as well. I was baptized into the Latin Church in Africa. When I lived in Australia I attended both a Ukrainian Catholic Church and a Syro Malabar Catholic Church because the closest Latin Church to me held Mass at odd times. I never encountered any of the issues that I hear coming from Americans regarding Eastern Catholicism.
What I don’t understand about the Uniate church, is how can it be part of the same Catholic Church when it doesn’t agree with Papal infallibility, the Filioque, etc ; How can it be “one body in Christ”, yet, doctrinal truths are not universal? The church must be universal in doctrine and Tradition.
If I could square that circle...I'd still be Catholic. Yes the Church must confess the same Faith. The Eastern Catholic response to that question is usually either, 1) these doctrines are different, but complementary representing different theological traditions. There can be differences on minor theological issues, but once something has been raised or claimed to be binding and essential dogma, there's not nuance. Rome dogmatized its claims about its place in the life of teh Church beyond what was ecumenically recognized, and you either believe this or not. There can be no fence sitting. 2) Some of these dogmas (Vat 1) were defined after the union movements, so some Eastern Catholics do not feel they have to accept them. Indeed, some Melkites believe God will use ECs to bring Rome to doctrinal Orthodoxy. But if you believe Rome is in error, they know the Orthodox position, and persist in error...you cant be in union with that. All that that say, it still took me a decade to follow through on these conclusions. So I sympathize with those who are struggling.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 plus you got Oriental Catholics of the miaphysite tradition (Coptic Caths, Maronites, Malankara Caths, Syriac Caths etc.) + the Catholic Persian rite ones (Chaldeans & SyroMalabars). So it's Byzantine Caths, Miaphysite Caths and Persian rite (East Syriac) Caths.
Very similar. In fact, Eastern Catholics were originally Orthodox but by papal forgeries and claims they were put into communion with Rome. But aesthetically speaking, they're pretty much the same or similar, but the Church's fullness is within Orthodoxy.
There is much I could say. Let me just focus on objective considerations. Orthodoxy needs a pope in the first millennium conception of the office. The centralized Vatican, celebrity popes and hyperpapalist ecclesiology are a serious problem in the Roman Church. All of the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in North America will evaporate as immigrants assimilate. This process will also affect the Orthodox to a degree. Latin Rite refugees do benefit from their exposure to the Divine Liturgy and over time to Eastern spirituality and theology. People who do not live in the rarified world of academic theology can live fruitful lives sheltered under the bridge. There is some beneficial effect on the Roman Church, as well, from the experiences of these refugees. Vatican I is the fundamental issue. I do not see that the other differences are unbridgeable. I do not see for myself a clear path forward. I hope that God himself will bring us all together. God bless you and I hope your decision brings you closer to him. Glory to Jesus Christ!
Honestly, I would love for Western Rite Orthodoxy to gain more of a foothold in the U.S. so that people fleeing Catholicism, especially the Latin Mass trads, could find a more comfortable home to find rest within. That said, Western Rite Orthodoxy definitely has its issues that really need to be addressed and ironed out synodally. One of the things that should be done, in my opinion, is an archdiocese needs to employ some liturgical scholars to recover the oldest possible pre-Tridentine missal they could find and use that as a base to then revise and update for a more authentic Western Rite. As it is, Western Rite Orthodoxy in the States presently uses either using the Liturgy of St. Tikhon (which is the Anglican/Episcopal services, corrected for Orthodoxy) or the supposed Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (which is just the Tridentine Mass, again, corrected for Orthodoxy). Sourcing an ante-Trent, authentically Gregorian liturgy would be far better, in my opinion, and far more authentic to what the West celebrated when it was Orthodox, once upon a time. We could also bring over the Use of Sarum that has been restored in Western Rite Orthodoxy as well, at least in the U.K. Beautiful liturgy.
I completely agree! I have a Latin Trad friend who would probably consider converting to Orthodoxy but he tells me that there’s no Latin rite counterpart in the Orthodox Church (apart from the few western rite parishes) which could feed him spiritually and liturgically, as it’s part of his Irish heritage.
@@acekoala457they used the Celtic rite up until the council of Whitby if I’m not mistaken. But even the Celtic rite was a variant of the Gallican which was still Western.
Interesting, I converted from Eastern Orthodoxy to Catholicism, i'ts great to hear different positions and their concerns, views and positions, IMO in this case it kind of points to the "grass is greener syndrome” but eventually both east and the west call for a decision and, confronts us with a choice, I think knowing, submitting, praying to God for answers as to find His Church is crucial as. The first step of knowing there is a historical family capable of enduring the storms of history due to His endowment of both His personal authority and His Spirit is a sign of God's grace working within, and praise God for that! God bless you, brother!
That’s a horrible sin you’ve done because it’s one thing not to know the Church and just remain a papist all life but an entirely different thing to leave the Body of Christ. I pray you reconsider your actions and repent.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges that Orthodox Churches are Churches in the fullest sense of the word because they have apostolic succession, valid priesthood and Eucharist. However, the Roman Catholic Church does not teach that the Orthodox Church is "The Church." Actually, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Orthodox Churches are in schism from "The Church."
This is something to ask your priest about. The answer, in my experience, will usually be something along the lines of, “The words themselves are fine as a prayer to the Mother of God, but you must not participate in the ‘contemplative and imaginative prayer’ aspect of the Rosary.” The contemplative and imaginative aspects of the prayer is kind of what makes the Rosary… the Rosary, so that’s why praying the Rosary is not really a thing here in Eastern Orthodoxy. We believe that activating one’s imagination during prayer leads to prelest (spiritual delusion) and potentially more serious problems too. There are many many Orthodox authors that have broached this subject (about why we don’t do contemplative prayer) so I will leave that up to you to look into. For a convert from Roman Catholicism, an Orthodox priest will usually advise you to stay away from even saying the words of the Rosary as a prayer at the very beginning of your conversion (to keep you from slipping into old habits and bad ways of approaching of prayer). Pray the Jesus prayer instead as a mystical ascetic practice to rid yourself of the contemplative prayer habits. And maybe after every one hundred Jesus prayers, add in the most common Orthodox prayer to the Mother of God: “It is truly meet to bless Thee, O Theotokos. Ever blessed and most pure and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim; who without corruption gave birth to God the Word. The very Theotokos, we magnify thee.” Please note that I am not prescribing you a prayer rule, as only a spiritual father you are in active submission to can do that for you. It’s a dangerous and inappropriate thing for a layperson to give someone a prayer rule. So please please consult a priest before doing any of this. I just give you all of this detail as a way to show you how different prayer is in Orthodoxy and how you cannot just bring in Catholic (or other heretical traditions) prayer habits into Orthodoxy. It simply does not work that way. The Orthodox approach to prayer is markedly different. Hope this helps. Talk to a priest!!
Lofton was Orthodox for what, two years? He left still as a baby in the faith and thinks he can lecture on it as if he’s fully grown. Sad thing is, some people actually listen to him!
Your schismatic sect is under Anathema as per canon 110 of the council of Carthage in 419 AD (a council which adopted St Augustine's teaching on this subject) for denying that Original sin must be washed away with baptism. This council was accepted by the councils of Trullo and Nicaea II.
I really do not understand what it was that led you to Orthodoxy. Nor do I understand why you left Catholicism. Is there anything related to the faith? Aren't we all "catholics" first?
I think Erik Ybarra and reason and theology can help you alot i think this topic is over simplified because when i look at the councils and the church fathers writings the papacy is there …. Its fine if people disagree with me but if you disagree with me we can always talk voice to voice and really engage not just comment back and forth but I pray for you brother in Christ
Hi I think you might be new here, but those two have been called out, shown as incoherent, admitting Orthodox positions, been caught lying (with screenshots), refuse to debate the obvious people that called them out. Also, it would be interesting to see Vatican 1 and 2 in church history, it's usually just papal quote mining. people start looking at Orthodoxy when they see the contradictions of that. For example, nicea one
Well, remember this was not intended to be and is not an apologetic video, Ubi Petrus has wonderful response videos to those guys. This was just an overview of why I made the decisions I did. Just so you know, I did listen to Ybarra and R&T, and that is major reason I am Orthodox now. Just found it lacking in the face of better historiography and reasoning.
The existence of the papacy and the infallibility/supreme Universal immediate jurisdiction of the papacy are two different things. You will find the bishop of Rome highly honored among the early church, but you will not find the Vatican 1 papacy there. It did not exist.
CIX! My friend... the papal claims that you so sadly contorted yourself to try to reconcile by some pseudo 'eastern catholic' perspective are simply rooted in the Gospel of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. In this regard for 1000 years the Church in East and West lived implicitly what was made somewhat explicit at Vatican I. I say somewhat because Vat I did not even exhaust the fulness of those claims as taught by, for example, St Leo the Great in the 5th century. Read: 'The Church of God ' by Louis Bouyer. The sad witness of poorly convinced and poorly taught eastern catholic teachers and mentors in your experience have tragically shortchanged you of a truly Orthodox - Catholic ecclesiastical vision. One that many in Orthodoxy even recognize as valid and arguable patristically speaking (eg. Oliver Clement). Take another 'deeper' and more authentic look and you will see in eastern Catholicism the very prophecy of the fullness of Orthodoxy and Catholicity lived in communion.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 Thank-you for the reply. Well 'thanks but no' and 'Vat 1 is nonsense', does not leave much room for dialogue, still Raymond, as the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom and as humility it the root of that authentic fear of the true theologian which opens the nous to divine Light, let me leave you with this simple and humble thought (and challenge) regarding your present papal position: if you really do love the Fathers as the foundational articulation of a truly Orthodox-Catholic ecclesiology founded and intended by Christ, if you do think Bouyer is indeed a contemporary theologian who can produce 'gold' and who knows those Fathers well, then give a little time to 'The Church of God' by the latter. While the entire work is excellent, see what he says concerning Vat I and the papal claims made therein and the profound patristic pillars through the centuries which testify to that Petrine ministry as belonging to the very nature of the ecclesia built by the Wise Builder. What can you lose..???. if your able to refute Bouyer and his take on the Fathers, your position may be that much stronger indeed. And... if not... maybe you can come back home. ;) May the Lord Jesus, The Rock Who builds on rock, guide you to salvation.
![KSI - Thick Of It (feat. Trippie Redd) [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/At8v_Yc044Y/mqdefault.jpg)
It’s come to my attention that this video I posted on my conversion to Orthodoxy has gotten a lot of interaction and responses. So I wanted to clarify a few points. This video is not apologetic. I am not interested at this time in doing Orthodox apologetics. Not because I think this would be an unworthy endeavor, but because this work has and is being done by competent thinkers such as Jay Dyer @JayDyer and Ubi Petrus @ubipetrus3882 among others. It would take an extraordinary amount of time and energy for me to match let alone surpass their existing work. It would be superfluous for me to engage in apologetic discourse so I would defer and direct others to their outstanding work.
Personally, my philosophical disposition is not so much toward logic, metaphysics, and epistemology (truth and our ability to come to apprehend it) though I have studied these extensively; but, toward ethics and existentialism (living truthfully and meaningfully). Yes, you should seek to know the truth, particularly in matters ecclesiological (cf. the above-mentioned apologists), but my video was about my process of coming to live the truths I had been convinced of. Any arguments I made in that video are not so much according to logos but ethos. I sought to sketch my own process of bringing my own life and labors into accord with my convictions.
Thus, the arguments I make are not strictly logical but ethical. Namely: stop living and propagating a lie. If you are an Eastern Catholic who believes modern Roman Catholic ecclesiology is erroneous, act like it. Stop trying to cultivate an “Orthodox in Catholic Union” ecclesiology if Rome has already dogmatically precluded it. Stop presenting Eastern Catholicism as Orthodoxy. Yes, because it’s logically incoherent, but more to my point, it keeps people who would otherwise become Orthodox stuck in an unworkable situation as I was for over a decade. Life is too short, the hour too dark, and the tasks at hand too monumental to be bogged down in such cognitive dissonance. My argument is an ethical appeal to Eastern Catholics, come, join us…for the sake of your own working out of salvation and if you are so inclined, for the sake of building up the Body of Christ. For an overview of how I see that task, check out this outline on my Substack: open.substack.com/pub/raymondvincent/p/culture-and-community-creation-as?r=1pdsa9&
"Life is too short...to be bogged down in such cognitive dissonance." That line jumped out at me. Something to chew on.
It is ironic to hear this because the the emperor john viii to the last emperor Constantine xi, the patriarchs of the east and the overwhelming majority of eastern clergy, including metropolitans of kiev and bishops of the east including moscow accepted the Catholic faith fully in the council of florence. It was the ottoman mehmet ii who replaced the patriarch of Constantinople with a weak bishop and bishops in the Ottoman Empire to oppose the union with rome. The eastern Christians are in such a bad shape because of their disobedience to the definitive teaching of the church in an ecumenical council. I encourage you to read Cantate Domino of Eugene iv and see for yourself what the emperors and 500 bishops assented to
@@jperez7893 thank God for St. Mark of Ephesus.
@@jperez7893 Actually only Constantinople accepted the council of Florence. Kiev was part of the Church of Constantinople at that time btw. In fact, The Patriarch of Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria in an Orthodox council ex-communicated Constantinople and anyone in Union with Rome a few years after the Council of Florence. A few years after that, Constantinople admitted it was in error and backtracked from the council of Florence and rejoined the Eastern patriarchs. As far as the Emperor in concerned, he was just trying to save his dying Empire, his motivations where political, not theological. Everyone knows this. Nice try though.
welcome home, brother ☦️
Many years
Many years! I was Maronite, will be officially received around Pascha of this year God willing 🙏🏽❤
Welcome. Sorry about my jab against the Maronite, old Melkite habits are hard to kick.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 lol no worries haha 😂
Hey Mario! Can you tell me how you currently see St. Charbel? I've been praying to him for guidance as I discern the correct choice between Rome and Orthodoxy. Are Maronites like Melkites, "Orthodox in communion with Rome"? I would love to hear from you and inquire about your journey.
@@aeternusromanus Maronites would not typically claim that same language as the Melkites do, Maronites typically pride themselves on having a perpetual union with rome, which is historically very cloudy and not really accurate. I dont see Charbel Makhlouf as a saint, since he wasnt canonized by the Orthodox Church thus I obey the Church. Typically he is seen as a national icon and people of lebanese descent have a big attachment to him, but thats not the best way to approach how one views what the saints are, it becomes rather nationalistic in my opinion, where your lebanese identity is put in question for not believing in him as a saint, it can get rather childish in my opinion and emotional.
@@aeternusromanus I do like the original Saint Charbel of Edessa 😉
You explained so clearly many of the reasons my family moved from Latin rite to Eastern Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy.
Great video!
Welcome home ☦
Can you please show me one document from tradition or from the Ecumenical councils where the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church ever identified itself as the
*Ανατολική Ορθόδοξη Εκκλησία*
Also leaving the Traditional Latin Mass for the Orthodox church too.
@@crowlikemadness
You are joining a schismatic and heretical sect
Same ❤
Thank you for uploading this video. I am a Protestant who has been discerning between returning to Catholicism as a Greek Catholic or Eastern Orthodoxy, and this insight is very valuable to this journey I am on. I have been attending an EO parish for the last couple of months, but am earnestly continuing forward in search of the truth. God bless.
Blessings on your journey.
so, you have willingly joined a church that has proven not to be catholic, structurally divided, unable to overcome the petty dividions of national jurisdiction, and has not been able to gather a ecumenical council since a millennia? because odf spirituality??
@@silveriorebelo2920 no, I’ve joined the Catholic Church united in a common orthodox faith despite the fact that there has always been and will likely always be difficulties between jurisdictions. This is preferable to what exists in the Roman Catholic Church which is a mere juridical unity masking profound and insurmountable doctrinal and mortal anarchy and confusion. Merely submitting to the bishop of Rome is not what makes the church Catholic.
@@silveriorebelo2920 no, I’ve joined the Catholic Church united in a common orthodox faith despite the fact that there has always been and will likely always be difficulties between jurisdictions. This is preferable to what exists in the Roman Catholic Church which is a mere juridical unity masking profound and insurmountable doctrinal and mortal anarchy and confusion. Merely submitting to the bishop of Rome is not what makes the church Catholic.
@@silveriorebelo2920 And about "not having an ecumenical council" during the 2nd millennium: an ecumenical council was always proclaimed by the Roman emperor and we kept that tradition the last one was the 9th Ecumenical Council in 1341-1351. Afterwards because there was no longer a Roman Emperor the councils that were held were named Panorthodox.
I converted to Orthodoxy almost 2 years ago. Your analogy of the eastern Catholicism as a bridge is spot on
Many years!
I wonder how long it will take Lofton to do a response to this lol
LOL, I'm sure I'm not even on his radar.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 He already did as a youtube "short". Now you just got to wait for his 3 hour response video.
He would be quick to "charitably" respond to this video yet ignore Ubis video refuting his assessments of Orthodoxy 😅
@@IC_XC_NIKA You forgot his inimitable nuance...
@@orthochristos hahaha can't forget that 😂😂👌🏾
Hi, Thanks for presenting your transition. I was RC for 62 years, & a former RCC nun. I did attend a Ruthenian parish for awhile before converting to ROCOR . I have been Russian Orthodox for 14 years now. I did struggle with the 2 bastions of theology & apologetics too. What convinced me to convert was very simple analysis of history. Around the 1600s the political situation in the Balkans was such that large swaths of Orthodox regions were threatened by the Ottomans & they sought protection from RC rulers at the cost of giving up their Orthodox Faith for the RCC theologies. They made decisions based for their survival. So they had a lot of ambiguity & dissonance as a result. I saw so much more integrity in Eastern Orthodoxy than in Eastern Catholicism. They had to be very clever to bridge 2 world views on theology. So just the historical facts were enough to convince me to leave the Ruthenians for the Russians. I have invested a lot of prayer & study learning Eastern Orthodox theology & phronema. It is life giving & grace filled, authentic & cohesive. I congratulate you on your move & conversion. Perhaps at some point you will become so penetrated with Orthodoxy that you may accept a call to the diaconate. There is a very good online seminary program with ROCOR in Chicago that our priest attended & our Reader is just beginning now. 🙏🙏🙏 I will pray for you.
Thank you for such a detailed comment. It gives me hope. I want to find a spiritual father and ROCOR church but I'm living where there isn't either so not sure what I should be doing in the meantime. Can I go to a Greek Orthodox Church until I move to another town? I am inspired to look into the Rutherians now! God bless you!🙏🏼☦
Glad to hear your story! I too was Roman Catholic and had discerned becoming a monk. Last year I converted to Orthodoxy, and have not regretted it. Are you a nun in the Orthodox Church?
Wow! Just putting the math together, you are close 80 years old then. Quite a journey. Bless you.
@@rigavitch I attend a Greek Orthodox Church, I'd recommend you go. The differences between ROCOR and the Greeks are between hierarchs but the same worship and theology.
I too started in teh Ruthian Church, but after reading the definitive history the Slavic unite movement "Crisis and Reform" by Bishop Gudziak...I became Melkite.
I became Orthodox in an odd way. I just decided to go to a Greek Parish one Sunday and I have only missed 5 Liturgies since that Sunday.
I don't regret it.
Lord Jesus Christ, Ibn Allah, Have Mercy on me A Sinner.
I started going to a Greek parish over a year ago and have only missed twice both were vacations. Haven't missed any other Sundays either. Absolutely love it there.
What do u prefer about it
the fact that some of the best clergy in EC don't believe in papal supremacy made me be like.....😐whaaat?!
Are there any names who do?
The Latin trad refugees used to drive me so crazy before I became an Orthodox Catachumen. My old parish had several families who wanted to go to liturgy and have their infant children receive communion, but would reject a change of rite and the theology of the eastern Catholic Churches. It’s like cafeteria Catholicism where you pick and choose what you like and don’t like.
So many people in EC parishes are also there as a “marital compromise.” It was so demoralizing. In the end, people can’t live on a bridge, you either take up shelter under it, or make your way across it. And loving the “best of both worlds” just means your perpetually torn or schizophrenic. It wasn’t until I actually because Orthodox that I fully realized how unhealthy that was.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 I can imagine. I'm glad that I only discovered that there was a uniate Church in my uni town after I converted to Orthodoxy. I could have seen my self at the hight of my fustration with RC and it's trads joining it and be traped for a few years in it. Glory to God that that didn't happen
I was Maronite, and because my parish was very latinized and started incorporating byzantine icons for some reason to de latinize itself. I had so many issues there, for example we have maronite nuns in our parish and they distribute communion to the faithful. Which makes no sense liturgically and piety wise. And at that time i had a growing infatuation with byzantine catholicism and wanted to become Melkite and do a rite change just because the byzantine aesthetics made me feel good. I went to a melkite liturgy and absolutely hated it. Nothing about it made me feel what I felt when i meditated on becoming a byzantine catholic. And so i began my journey looking into Orthodoxy in a more genuine way rather than listening to Lofton or Catholic answers and pints with aquinas, and on sunday of forgiveness, after like 3 or 4 months of studying (reading books, watching debates, apologetical articles etc) i walked into an antiochian parish. Eastern Catholicism as it stands is very unstable but also very unsafe, because nothing about it seems set in stone since the Pope can determine your tradition without even having any knowledge or connection to it because Vatican 1 says so. It’s not logical and historically sound.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 I like your analogy of a bridge as something people use to walk over, or live under as homeless.
However, it made me think of London Bridge (... is falling down, my fair Lady).
People used to live on that bridge for centuries and it became very cluttered. I think it was brought down in the 1800s and replaced to get rid of those living on the bridge, as it couldn't be reasonably repaired (or reformed) with all those unwelcome inhabitants.
At least you crossed over, not that Italian Rubicon to plunder Gaul in the name of Rome, but that Jordan river to enter the promised land.
Curiously, as another aside on the theme of London Bridge, it apparently was pulled down by a viking in 1014, the very year the German King Henry got the Pope to officially adopt the Filioque heresy into the Creed, which prompted Constantinople to break communion with Rome.
That was the real beginning and cause of the separation of East and West, which was essentially a political move to drive the East Romans out of Italy and to consolidate the German kingdom as the Holy Roman Empire.
Papal supremacy and the Donation of Constantine (originally actually the donation of Pepin) were the final response of the Vatican forty years later to this rebuke.
This donation by Pepin and then Charlemagne was lands plundered from the Romans in Italy (with their capital in Constantinople) and then donated to the Bishop of Rome as tax revenue, for the purpose of driving a wedge between the Roman State and the Bishop of Rome.
The Arian Filioque and Gothic ambitions in regard to possessing the Roman empire are the real causes of the separation of East and West, and not an internal problem of Old and New Rome going their own ways motivated by their own traditions.
The separation of East and West Rome was carefully nurtured by the Gothic kingdoms of the West, especially by the East Franks and the Gothic Lombards (later the Germans) who had lands in Italy itself.
This separation was not a Roman problem primarily, but a Gothic (and Frankish) Arian invasion and supplanting problem.
Papal supremacy and infallibility are the end result of Rome refusing to repent for the Filioque error.
Research the Life of Ulfilas by the Latin Arian Bishop Auxentius. Therein you will see that the Filioque was originally an Arian or Pnevmatomachi heresy, which was defeated at the Second Ecumenical Council.
Because the Arians regarded the Spirit as a created power, therefore the Spirit had to exist (proceed) of the Father through and by means of the Son, since all things that were created, were made through the Son.
This is why the Ecumenical Council added to the Nicaean Creed that the Spirit proceeds from the Father.
Thus, the Spirit could not be a creature, because the Spirit according to the Orthodox does not have his being by means of the Son, through whom all creation has its being.
Since the Spirit exists of the Father (directly), therefore, the Spirit is God of God, and of one essence with the Father, without using those terms.
The Filioque entered the texts of Orthodox Latin Fathers in a way similar to how the donation of Pepin was turned into the Donation of Constantine - forgeries and interpolations.
As Orthodox we must stand resolutely against the Filioque, and we must oppose the politicisation of the Church for the imperial or nationalist ambitions of any peoples wanting to seize the Roman empire, which is now sadly gone.
It is time to recognise that Catholicity and Orthodoxy are one, and have never separated, and that the Orthodox tradition is not a merely Eastern tradition. It is Catholic.
It is time to recognise the insidious role played by the Frankish and Arian Gothic kingdoms in opposing the East Romans and Orthodox theology, and in dividing Latins and Greeks in the Roman world.
Had the Goths and Slavs converted to the Orthodox Catholic Church, instead of the Goths attempting to take possession of the Roman legacy, Europe would have been a peaceful and beautiful Paradise.
Instead Europe was divided, and the Roman Pope fell from the Catholic Church, as Adam fell from Paradise, and Lucifer fell from Heaven.
Very tragic with the same tragic results for mankind.
Nice testimony! I am also a former Roman Catholic who converted to Eastern Orthodoxy since September 2022; I am under the jurisdiction of Constantinople.
"You cannot put new wine in old wineskins." You experienced the realization that for continued growth that your life had to return to the faith that was passed down. I came from a completely non liturgical background and Orthodoxy really found me. I appreciate this authentic confession. God Bless you in your path to salvation!
Earned a subscriber. May God strengthen you and keep you safe
Welcome home brother ☦️
I converted to Orthodoxy from Roman Catholicism in 2017, best decision I ever made, Thanks be to God
I also did. Actually, we all did- my husband, 2 children, and myself the same year. I agree that it was the best decision we ever made.
Same year for me as well
@@joanna400Big mistake
I converted to Orthodoxy from Catholicism nearly 20 yrs ago but I still have much love and respect for Eastern Catholics and their devotion and many whose relatives suffered in Eastern Europe when the communists forced them into the Orthodox Church to control them
Rusyns and Ukrainians
Welcome home ! 33 yrs ago after wallowing in the muddy waters of the post Latin reformation of 1965 I was received into the fullness of the Orthodox Church ! Never looked back .
Thank you for sharing. God grant you many years.
May the Lord bless you greatly! Welcome! ❤️☦️
Welcome Home!! Former Ruthenian Catholic here, left for Holy Orthodoxy five years ago.
May you be blessed with many more years!☦️
*Why did Raymond Vincent convert from Eastern Catholicism to Orthodox Christianity?*
1:02 Apologies for the low quality of the video
1:22 A Stalled Out Vocation is not what happened.
• Theology Degree and M.Div
2:02 Raymond’s former bishop had announced his retirement.
2:52 He did not become Orthodox because his vocation stalled out. It was an _indirect_ cause not a direct cause.
3:31 It was a decade of really bad clergy. Just because the clergy were bad did not disvalidate the claims of the church. Many were great mentors pastors friends, still today.
4:22 Idk if maintaining the relationships is tenable anymore. But Raymond believes that by the way Eastern Catholicism is structured, it makes bad clergy a systemic problem.
5:07 You get the leftovers of Roman Catholicism.
5:37 Tradition vs Progressive wing
6:18 It’s still very much affected. The bad clergy are a byproduct. The good clergy deacons monks either
(1) privately admit to you they don’t believe papal claims
(2) keep questions ambiguous
7:42 If Orthodoxy was the best parts of Eastern Catholicism, why continue to maintain relations
9:25 2 Theological Degrees at a Catholic University.
10:25 You have to have the vocation within the vocation. Something motivating that.
11:11 I could not leave issues in the vauge ether. 12:40 To sidestep Vatican 1, it requires siding with Jesuits.
14:39 Liturgy, Theology, Spirituality. A complete matrix of experience.
16:33 Divine Liturgy
17:34 Exhausted trying to make a parish survivable.
• Landscaping
• Paying the bills
• caused a crisis
20:41 Raymond could no longer devote his life to it.
21:08 Jay Day and Ubi Petras
21:55 Raymond was friendly and cordial. It was “I couldn’t invest in this project anymore.”
24:02 Eastern Catholicism, Roman Catholicism, Pope Francis, the straw that broke the camel’s back.
25:57
26:47 Bridge Church “walk over them or live under them because they’re homeless.”
28:37 “we’re just miles apart theologically.”
30:22 Genuine acceptance
31:06 Not claiming Orthodoxy has better clergy.
32:07 Human Failings continue.
Orthodoxy is prepared to account for those failings
32:52 Orthodoxy has a future
33:54 Being in union
Welcome, many years 🎉! Keep your honesty and integrity.
Welcome home, brother. Stay strong. ☦️
Welcome Home ☦️
From a protestant to Catholic to finally Orthodoxy. It took me 24 years, but I am finally home. Glory to God....Slava Bogu!
Shameful and Sad. Walks away from the Church Jesus established for a group of persons who are simply disobedient to what Jesus himself created. Walks way because of bad clergy lol Pathetic but then i get it. If you think Jesus would establish a visible Church without a visible structure then you not only reject his words but also you reject the OT structure where it all began. You are a weak person is what it comes down to. You are Pathetic for walking away from his Church based on what some clergy have done or are doing. The Church is Holy by virtue of Jesus and not the priests or bishops or even the pope so your logic fails.
I took the same journey from Roman Catholicism, through the Eastern Catholic Churches (actually "rites" under a Cardinal bureaucrat of the Roman Curia, whether he is an Eastern Rite Patriarch or not, appointed by Rome) to Holy Orthodoxy back in 1988.
I could never return to novus ordo. I went TLM, EC, and was Chrismated into Orthodoxy 12/18/2022 with my wife.
Thank you for sharing.
Thank you for sharing, been a Protestant for 14 years, began looking into church history 2 years ago. Been primarily reading from the orthodox study Bible and have been to Orthodox Church, and recently been visiting Byzantine Catholic Church trying to figure out where to go. Some of the things you have shared I’ve seen as I’ve been trying to find my place within the ancient church. Thank you for sharing
Please remain Catholic
As a former refugee, I had no idea how common it is for trad Latin rites to attend eastern divine liturgy. I want to hear more about how you were able to accept major differences between eastern Catholic theology and Orthodoxy like purgatory, contraception, Papal primacy and the understanding of grace.
Simply, Melkites don't really believe in purgatory, papal primacy (in the Vat 1 sense), or created grace. The only thing I really did need I had to come to accept was that my Eastern Catholic Church was not actually Orthodox.
There's disagreement on contraception?
@@henrylansing9734 I may be wrong but I remember reading Melkite saying they disagree with Rome's stand on divorce and they still hold onto the believe of divorce and remarriage but they dont do it because Rome said no, there was a civil war in Eparchy of Newton some years ago too
Hi Raymond. I particularly like your approach. Leaving EC without having to bash everything you experienced there. This is a foundation of a normal and stable life within the EOC. God bless and welcome home!
Great video; I have been Orthodox for 17 years now. Thanks for sharing
So many people converting from catholism to orthodox great to see. Welcome home
From the Church of Christ to the church of satan
GLORY BE TO GOD! Welcome home, brother!!
God grant you many years!
I converted from Catholicism to Eastern Orthodox thirty one years ago.
I was also Melkite, and converted to Orthodoxy. Just like you, I had a very traditionalist mindset, but it was hard for me to reconcile the legitimate dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church with Eastern Catholicism; as both have two conflicting theologies.
What you said is true about the clergy rejecting the papal claims and Roman dogmas, because I have spoken with several clergyman in the Melkite Church that would admit that there really is no good reason to be in communion with Rome.
About the Eastern Catholics taking the left overs of Roman Catholicism; I 100% agree. Many Latins that were fed up with their church’s progressiveness would flee to our uniate churches. It was a tragic situation since what they thought would be a refuge for those that desire Orthodoxy and Orthopraxy would only be the same as what they had in the Latin Church, if not worse.
(I’ve personally seen Holy Communion being given in Dixie cups during COVID with the approval of the former bishop, and even seen tons of Jesuit / Opus Dei influences in the theology of the clergy).
Let us not forget that the Eparchy of Newton had a civil war a couple years ago regarding divorce and remarriage; with those favoring the more EO position being in favor of compromising the traditional Catholic position (no surprise), while the rivals considered them to be enemies of the Catholic Church. (Ironically, these were also the same ones saying that they were fully EO in communion with Rome - yet they condemned the EO approach to this matter).
I’ve concluded that the Zoghby position, and Unitism as a whole - and trying to find a way to justify the theological differences etc., was nothing more than cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics.
God bless.
Shameful and Sad. Walks away from the Church Jesus established for a group of persons who are simply disobedient to what Jesus himself created. Walks way because of bad clergy lol Pathetic but then i get it. If you think Jesus would establish a visible Church without a visible structure then you not only reject his words but also you reject the OT structure where it all began. You are a weak person is what it comes down to. You are Pathetic for walking away from his Church based on what some clergy have done or are doing. The Church is Holy by virtue of Jesus and not the priests or bishops or even the pope so your logic fails.
@@Catholicism_the_Solution If you believe that Jesus Christ established the Roman Catholic Church, then I’m afraid you are deeply lost and risking your salvation.
Your church is showing it’s true fruits which Jesus warned against, and it’s evident by the amount of blasphemy and heresy being promoted in Rome.
You can insult me all you like, but I pray God opens your eyes to His Truth. God bless you.
@@StoleBearer Negative. You are the one risking your salvation because you are the one who walked away from what Jesus established. He established a Church under St Peter the Rock who is the leader of this visible Church on earth. Yes yes yes try and twist " Oh but all the apostles were equal " all the apostles did not get the KEY only St Peter did. Keep living in delusion by telling yourself this is not true. No insults are hurled at you , truth is simply being talked. You can sit here all day till you are blue in the face claiming First among equal nonsense go for it , but it is blatantly obvious that any structure within society needs a HEAD and One who is above all. Keep being disobedient
May God Grant You Many Years!
Welcome home 🙏☦️ many and blessed years
Thank you for sharing. This was very interesting. I became Christian (Protestant) in college. Then I went to bible school to become a worship pastor, and then I became incredibly confused by all different interpretations of scripture and by how many different denominations there are. I Had a friend that was Orthodox, and he invited me to a liturgy. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. Best decision of my life. I was baptized and Chrismated two Years ago! I sometimes research Catholicism just to see what’s on the other side of the fence so to speak. Thank you for sharing! Out of curiosity, as an eastern catholic, were you accepted into orthodoxy through Christmation or did you have to be baptized as well?
Glad to hear about your conversion. In our situation (as long-time Melkites practicing Orthodoxy), and because we have raised our family exclusively in this tradition. It was determined that the appropriate way for us to be received was a public confession, renunciation of uniatism, and chrismation.
@@raymondvincentthm1642
Prior to the rule of Met. Philip(PBUH), Melkites were received by Baptism and in the Old Country they are too.
@raymondvincentthm1642 Why chrismation as well? Is your Melkite chrismation not recognized as confiring grace?
Saint John Cassian, pray for us.
28:13 exactly!
Thank you for your thoughts and video. 😊
Thank you, Raymond. ☦🛐
Welcome home brother
Well said and reasoned out. I left Rome for theological and ecclesiological reasons 50 year ago. This current papacy is the apex of all the bad thinking coming to fulfillment. Orthodoxy is stable and respects Tradition. If an Orthodox Patriarch said "you are no longer permitted to celebrate the liturgy we have been celebrating for 1900 years" he would find himself out the door. The Roman papacy needs to become a constitutional one to safeguard the Tradition of the Church. I feel very sorry for the Catholic Traditionalists... they should consider the Orthodox Western Rite.
Sadly, most traditional Latin Catholics are stuck on preserving pre-Vatican II Catholicism, with all its post schism theology, eccesiology, feasts, and devotions. There are a quite a few Western Rite Orthodox parishes that have carried a lot of that baggage into Orthodoxy. To be authentically Orthodox, that baggage has to go. Orthodoxy is not a refuge for former traditional Catholics to nostalgically preserve pre-Vatican II Catholicism. It is to become ORTHODOX, whether Byzantine or Western Rite.
Which Liturgy has been “celebrated for 1900 years”?
Great to hear your story, Brother.
Glory to God. Welcome home 🙏🏻☦️
Bless you brother ☦️
Saint Alexis Toth pray for all uniates and bring them to Holy Orthodoxy
An interesting issue, though it may never materialize is that the last 3 popes have all said that unification between the Orthodox and Rome could be done without Papal supremacy over the east (which I take to mean administrative supremacy, ie. being able to manage diocese of the east. Benedict even said that the Pope never had a relationship of administrative supremacy over the Eastern diocese). The Pope currently however does exercise administrative supremacy at least in principle over the Eastern Catholics though he doesn't push it much, he does hold to that authority and the Eastern Catholics tend to accept it, but "request" strong administrative privileges. So Rome actually officially sees the Eastern Orthodox patriarchates in those regions as being superior in authority, at least in some regard, to the Eastern Catholic Bishops and diocese in those areas, since Popes have claimed they don't require or deserve administrative supremacy over the ancient Orthodox Patriarchates in principle. I wonder how the Eastern Catholics view that situation.
A few other issues. The Catholic Catechism says that the Orthodox statement of the creed sans filioque is not heretical but a matter of emphasis that only the Father is Unoriginate, so the Spirit is completely breathed by the Father, but only co-breathed by the Son, rather than completely co-breathed by the Father and the Son, essential too since the Spirit hovered independent of the word of creation. If the Catholics really believe that today, they have moved to the Orthodox view of the filioque, though there are some Catholic apologists who insist that the Spirit is the "eternal love shared between the Father and the Son" which of course contradicts the distinction and necessity of both the Spirit and the Word,
Second, Orthodox don't really disagree that Mary was immaculately conceived. Orthodox simply hold that conceptions, in general are not "in-immaculate" so Mary's needs not be any different in that respect that yours or mine. It was miraculous, but the guilt of original sin isn't passed down through conception, rather fallen human nature, the disease of sin is present in flesh and matter. So the real issue there is the concept of sin and salvation, in which Orthodox primarily view the incarnation, death and resurrection and glorification as a process of restoring fallen human nature and creating a passover from death to life and from earth to heaven, and the Romans see it as a legal sacrifice for forgiveness, ie removal of guilt. Orthodox see sins as being forgiven by the Father upon repentance, but the necessity for restoration of humans to their former glory, and beyond. Most of the Roman error in this regard is due to the myopically legalistic Latin language and the legal versus full meaning of terms like justification and righteousness, and "covering" our sin (legally or covering our fallen human nature in his blood).
The main problem is Papal "doctrinal supremacy" where the Pope put himself above the councils, not just as leader but outranking the entirety of the rest of the bishops in matters of doctrine. There may be no way to undo papal doctrinal supremacy and it clearly goes against the prior teachings of Holy Popes who affirmed the supremacy of ecumenical councils even though many were not even presided over by Popes, as well as the fact that the Pope was "informed" of the rulings of councils but not asked by them to be ratified.
This is an authentic journey. Interesting steps.
This video could not have popped up on my RUclips feed at a better time. Thank you.
Hey I think this is Interesting. I'm a Ukrainian convert from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy, and on my journey, I never even considered the Eastern Church. The Uniates have a terrible reputation in Ukraine and Russia. I've met a ton of people who converted to Orthodoxy from the Uniate church just by studying history. So I wonder what these tradcath larpers who go to Eastern Churches would say to them...
Interesting, I’ve never heard that before (about the Uniate reputation in Ukraine). Could you speak a little more about that, or direct me somewhere with more information?
Despicable is a perfect word and is what has and will prevent me from being Catholic. The current papacy is pure evil
Very wonderful video. Thank you for sharing. One minor critique though: I wish you would’ve talked more about why you became convinced that Orthodoxy is true instead of just focusing on why Uniatism is wrong for the entire video. The presentation kinda makes it seem like you just converted FROM Uniatism rather than TO Orthodoxy. Obviously I’m sure that’s not actually what happened and that you’re not just some shallow “refugee from Papism” convert to Orthodoxy, since that is one of the main issues you brought up about Uniatism itself. Perhaps you could make a follow up video explaining why you came to see Orthodoxy as the true faith, rather than just explaining why you came to see Uniatism as false? Just a thought.
Good insight. I think I would say that the Eastern Catholic circles is was in (Melkite) understood themselves to be Orthodox. I because convinced Orthodoxy was true 12-13 years ago. The real conversion was to the eastern church. That is to say, I understood my conversion to Orthodoxy as talking place when I became Melkite. It just took me a long time to come to grips with the fact that my church was not actually Orthodox.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 So in other words, you became Orthodox, just in the wrong place.
@@SaintNicholasFan exactly, and then got stuck there. There are a lot of crypto-Orthodox believers stuck in the ECs just trying to ignore the best they can the cognitive dissonance. A lot of time it’s because of family or social ties. Pray for these people, they just need to take the plunge.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 You seem pretty solid. I just added you on FB.
Don't forget. We also have a thriving "western rite" orthodox.
"Thriving"
Thriving?
Thomas from St Elias here. I guess you finished your work there, sorry I didn’t get to say goodbye. I hope that you and your family are doing well. I hope to see you if you visit. Take care.
Hello Thomas, good to hear form you. Actually the work at St. Elias is not finished, we just wanted to get the bulk of it done before the Bishop's visit. I should be installing a few more murals in the next few mounts. We are just at another parish, as you know, we live way out in the country, so St. Elias' became quite difficult to attend for the family. But send me an email and we can catch up some time when I'm in town.
Ever attend a Melkite Greek Catholic Liturgy? Might want to check into it.
@@justrubio3121 you obviously didn’t listen to the video, or your a troll. I was Melkite for a decade. The picture in the thumbnail is me serving at a liturgy with the Melkite Patriarch.
I have been continually a Latin Catholic throughout all this time, and also an admirer and promoter of St John Fisher’s Prayer for Holy Bishops. The maker of this video would appear to have done U-turns on the validity of my baptism and confirmation, and on John Fisher’s sainthood. Any reason why?
To track down the prayer which I mention, highlight or select it with your mouse, right-click and then left-click to search for it on the Internet. Say it on the four Ember Saturdays and also on June 22 and December 29. Now should I stop saying this prayer?
Being part of the Eastern Orthodox Church or it’s formal designation Orthodox Catholic, should not be done because suddenly Roman Catholicism or Protestantism is no more to our liking so we attempt to switch to Eastern Orthodoxy because there is nothing left to choose from.
Being part of the Eastern Orthodox tradition takes years and years , attitudes, behaviour, mindset, world view and need to be aligned ( Pronema ) to what Jesus Christ actually instructed passed through Apostolic tradition- the Eastern Orthodox/ Orthodox Catholic Church.
I have seen very enthusiastic replies in a lot of RUclips videos, the real challenge is stop watching and attend / participate within the Eastern Orthodox Church as a start.
Again, being a true Eastern Orthodox- Orthodox Catholic , formal designation that people seem to forget will take a lifetime of adjustment, humility and trust in GOD/ Jesus Christ, NOT our human rational minds .
Just a couple of thoughts I wonted to share and no , this is not a sermon or acting righteous- it’s just the TRUTH.
Thank you for your patience
@@avvlahos42 100% I think people are starved into Orthodoxy, given what is missing in Protestantism and Catholicism. That’s not necessarily a bad start…but it is just a start. Ultimately what brings you into the Church must be Christ and possibility of salvation. Which as you said is a lifelong transformative process. In other words, life in Christ.
Shut up
I would love to move to orthodoxy. With what’s going on with the Synod I think the Catholic Church is going to move way left. This would be a fantastic opportunity for converts “if” Orthodoxy can move away from being so ethnic centered and more Orthodox centered. I’ve tried several Orthodox churches …Greek, Russian, Romanian bit the language barrier really detracts from the liturgy for my family. We just feel left out and not getting what we need. If the Orthodox Church would move to English only liturgy or a split liturgy one English and another in the ethnic language I think Orthodoxy would boom. Especially if the Roman church makes a hard left turn
Try an Antiochian or OCA parish. The parish I go to is mostly converts or second generation converts.
All Eastern Orthodox use John Chrysostom Liturgy expect on special occasions like Christmas Eve we use Saint Bails.
You can get a copy of the both Liturgies in English as well a copies of English side by side with Church Slovakia or other languages.
Antiochian and OCA parishes mostly speak English and are mostly converts.
I go to one of the few OCA parishes that speaks most Slavonic but went to a sister church that was all in English for a couple months before so I became very familiar with the Liturgy. I also sing the the choir so that helps.
Lauague really shouldn't be a hangup but if it is there are resources to help.
Most of the world does not speak English so most Liturgies are not English, to expect most parishes to mostly speak in a language foreign to its people for the sake of you is not really the best way to think about it.
It seems to me too things really matter two you The Liberlaisation of Rome and "getting somthing" out of a service.
Don't get me wrong, I want you to be orthdox but neither of these reasons are good reasons to convert.
As a Catholic attending a Ukranian Catholic Church (Byzantine) It is not because I am a refugee from a Latin Parish. Also my reasons for believing in Eastern Catholic Churches being in Full Communion with the Catholic Church is also not because of Vatican 1. (Although I do believe it is consistant with all previous Ecumenical Councils). I am in Australia and a number of the problems of Eastern Catholic Churches that you mentioned, I have not encountered them here in the Eastern Catholic Churches here in Australia. I think some of the issues you raised are particular to Canada and the The United States, especially the United States. Although I do believe the Orthodox expressions of Liturgy, architecture, practices and theological expressions etc are present in the Catholic Communion through the Eastern Catholic Churches, the main reason, the primary reason is because I found that from the Bible and also from the Church Fathers of the First Millenium, the Primacy and Chief position of the Authority of the See of Rome in relation to all other Churches of the First Millenium, is best represented and found in its fullest expression in the Communion of the Catholic Church today, which includes Communion with and recognising the Authority of the Successor of St Peter in the Roman See.
Hello David, I to did not become an Eastern Catholic for liturgical reasons. When I was Roman Catholic I attended the cathedral parish which had very high-quality traditional liturgy: Gregorian propers, polyphonic mass setting with full choir, organ, and clouds of incense. I was not a liturgical refugee and it actually took me some time to get used to Byzantine liturgy. I became an EAstern Catholic for theological reasons. After many of the Church Fathers and contemporary Orthodox theologians (and one or two Roman Catholic theologians including the late Pope Benedict) I became convinced that the Eastern theological tradition was the better. I had entered this tradition even if I at first thought the liturgy was odd.
I think in regions were uniateism originated, and has been wedded to an ethnic or national identity. The Byzantine liturgy is just part of the heritage, and a catholic (as differentiated from Orthodox) is part of a national identity. But when uniateism comes to the western world and people who are not connected to it historically start to explore it, that’s when you get the situations I have described. When, as is the situation in the US and Canada, you love the Eastern tradition but Orthodoxy is readily available, you don’t have any ethnic or nationalist incentives to maintain a catholic identic, and you come to believe the Roman Church has fallen into grave error…uniateism starts to not make a lot of sense.
This has been my experience as well. I was baptized into the Latin Church in Africa. When I lived in Australia I attended both a Ukrainian Catholic Church and a Syro Malabar Catholic Church because the closest Latin Church to me held Mass at odd times. I never encountered any of the issues that I hear coming from Americans regarding Eastern Catholicism.
What I don’t understand about the Uniate church, is how can it be part of the same Catholic Church when it doesn’t agree with Papal infallibility, the Filioque, etc ;
How can it be “one body in Christ”, yet, doctrinal truths are not universal? The church must be universal in doctrine and Tradition.
If I could square that circle...I'd still be Catholic. Yes the Church must confess the same Faith. The Eastern Catholic response to that question is usually either, 1) these doctrines are different, but complementary representing different theological traditions. There can be differences on minor theological issues, but once something has been raised or claimed to be binding and essential dogma, there's not nuance. Rome dogmatized its claims about its place in the life of teh Church beyond what was ecumenically recognized, and you either believe this or not. There can be no fence sitting. 2) Some of these dogmas (Vat 1) were defined after the union movements, so some Eastern Catholics do not feel they have to accept them. Indeed, some Melkites believe God will use ECs to bring Rome to doctrinal Orthodoxy. But if you believe Rome is in error, they know the Orthodox position, and persist in error...you cant be in union with that. All that that say, it still took me a decade to follow through on these conclusions. So I sympathize with those who are struggling.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 plus you got Oriental Catholics of the miaphysite tradition (Coptic Caths, Maronites, Malankara Caths, Syriac Caths etc.) + the Catholic Persian rite ones (Chaldeans & SyroMalabars). So it's Byzantine Caths, Miaphysite Caths and Persian rite (East Syriac) Caths.
How similar is Eastern Catholicism with Eastern Orthodoxy?
Very similar. In fact, Eastern Catholics were originally Orthodox but by papal forgeries and claims they were put into communion with Rome. But aesthetically speaking, they're pretty much the same or similar, but the Church's fullness is within Orthodoxy.
26:04 💯
There is much I could say. Let me just focus on objective considerations. Orthodoxy needs a pope in the first millennium conception of the office. The centralized Vatican, celebrity popes and hyperpapalist ecclesiology are a serious problem in the Roman Church. All of the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in North America will evaporate as immigrants assimilate. This process will also affect the Orthodox to a degree. Latin Rite refugees do benefit from their exposure to the Divine Liturgy and over time to Eastern spirituality and theology. People who do not live in the rarified world of academic theology can live fruitful lives sheltered under the bridge. There is some beneficial effect on the Roman Church, as well, from the experiences of these refugees. Vatican I is the fundamental issue. I do not see that the other differences are unbridgeable. I do not see for myself a clear path forward. I hope that God himself will bring us all together. God bless you and I hope your decision brings you closer to him. Glory to Jesus Christ!
Honestly, I would love for Western Rite Orthodoxy to gain more of a foothold in the U.S. so that people fleeing Catholicism, especially the Latin Mass trads, could find a more comfortable home to find rest within. That said, Western Rite Orthodoxy definitely has its issues that really need to be addressed and ironed out synodally.
One of the things that should be done, in my opinion, is an archdiocese needs to employ some liturgical scholars to recover the oldest possible pre-Tridentine missal they could find and use that as a base to then revise and update for a more authentic Western Rite. As it is, Western Rite Orthodoxy in the States presently uses either using the Liturgy of St. Tikhon (which is the Anglican/Episcopal services, corrected for Orthodoxy) or the supposed Liturgy of St. Gregory the Great (which is just the Tridentine Mass, again, corrected for Orthodoxy). Sourcing an ante-Trent, authentically Gregorian liturgy would be far better, in my opinion, and far more authentic to what the West celebrated when it was Orthodox, once upon a time.
We could also bring over the Use of Sarum that has been restored in Western Rite Orthodoxy as well, at least in the U.K. Beautiful liturgy.
I completely agree! I have a Latin Trad friend who would probably consider converting to Orthodoxy but he tells me that there’s no Latin rite counterpart in the Orthodox Church (apart from the few western rite parishes) which could feed him spiritually and liturgically, as it’s part of his Irish heritage.
@@ΆγιοςΙερώνυμος-χ2γ
Ireland didn't use Latin Rites for most of it's History.
I feel very at home in Greek Orthodox Churches with Chanting and Ison.
@@acekoala457they used the Celtic rite up until the council of Whitby if I’m not mistaken. But even the Celtic rite was a variant of the Gallican which was still Western.
Interesting, I converted from Eastern Orthodoxy to Catholicism, i'ts great to hear different positions and their concerns, views and positions, IMO in this case it kind of points to the "grass is greener syndrome” but eventually both east and the west call for a decision and, confronts us with a choice, I think knowing, submitting, praying to God for answers as to find His Church is crucial as. The first step of knowing there is a historical family capable of enduring the storms of history due to His endowment of both His personal authority and His Spirit is a sign of God's grace working within, and praise God for that!
God bless you, brother!
Willful Apostasy from the Orthodox Faith is a grave sin that leads to hell. May you be reunited to the Church in Gods time.
That’s a horrible sin you’ve done because it’s one thing not to know the Church and just remain a papist all life but an entirely different thing to leave the Body of Christ. I pray you reconsider your actions and repent.
"I left the Church but I will proceed to call you brother" hmm 🤨
Becoming fully Orthodox is becoming fully Catholic. Orthodoxy is the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Even Roman Catholic theology admits that.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 The Roman Catholic Church acknowledges that Orthodox Churches are Churches in the fullest sense of the word because they have apostolic succession, valid priesthood and Eucharist. However, the Roman Catholic Church does not teach that the Orthodox Church is "The Church." Actually, the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Orthodox Churches are in schism from "The Church."
24:41 Who impiously said: "I am the tradition!" ?
Are you still in ga? I’m at St Mary of Egypt
Bingo. All reformers, papal and post-papal agree on a principal of subjective Christianity. They disagree in kind.
Welcome home. The Uniates should as well, just come home to Holy Orthodoxy.
Is it still okay to pray the rosary even if I switch to eastern orthodox?
Sure. It's a prayer to the Mother of God and I'm fairly sure she don't mind it.
This is something to ask your priest about. The answer, in my experience, will usually be something along the lines of, “The words themselves are fine as a prayer to the Mother of God, but you must not participate in the ‘contemplative and imaginative prayer’ aspect of the Rosary.” The contemplative and imaginative aspects of the prayer is kind of what makes the Rosary… the Rosary, so that’s why praying the Rosary is not really a thing here in Eastern Orthodoxy. We believe that activating one’s imagination during prayer leads to prelest (spiritual delusion) and potentially more serious problems too. There are many many Orthodox authors that have broached this subject (about why we don’t do contemplative prayer) so I will leave that up to you to look into. For a convert from Roman Catholicism, an Orthodox priest will usually advise you to stay away from even saying the words of the Rosary as a prayer at the very beginning of your conversion (to keep you from slipping into old habits and bad ways of approaching of prayer). Pray the Jesus prayer instead as a mystical ascetic practice to rid yourself of the contemplative prayer habits. And maybe after every one hundred Jesus prayers, add in the most common Orthodox prayer to the Mother of God:
“It is truly meet to bless Thee, O Theotokos. Ever blessed and most pure and the Mother of our God. More honorable than the cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim; who without corruption gave birth to God the Word. The very Theotokos, we magnify thee.”
Please note that I am not prescribing you a prayer rule, as only a spiritual father you are in active submission to can do that for you. It’s a dangerous and inappropriate thing for a layperson to give someone a prayer rule. So please please consult a priest before doing any of this. I just give you all of this detail as a way to show you how different prayer is in Orthodoxy and how you cannot just bring in Catholic (or other heretical traditions) prayer habits into Orthodoxy. It simply does not work that way. The Orthodox approach to prayer is markedly different. Hope this helps. Talk to a priest!!
28:00 - 28:35 Bingo
You're the opposite of Michael Lofton - he went from Eastern Orthodoxy to Eastern Catholicsm!
For much, much worse reasons.
Lofton was Orthodox for what, two years? He left still as a baby in the faith and thinks he can lecture on it as if he’s fully grown. Sad thing is, some people actually listen to him!
I am Eastern Catholic came to it from the Latin Rite I understand you , but what of the Immaculate Conception?
Immaculate Conception is an obvious heresy. I dont understand why catholics protect it
Your schismatic sect is under Anathema as per canon 110 of the council of Carthage in 419 AD (a council which adopted St Augustine's teaching on this subject) for denying that Original sin must be washed away with baptism. This council was accepted by the councils of Trullo and Nicaea II.
Neoustašo niko te nije zvao.
@@miroslavakostic
Anathema!! Pičko jedan
@@SAHOVNICU Ustashi culture.
Jay Dyer promotes conspiracies.
I really do not understand what it was that led you to Orthodoxy. Nor do I understand why you left Catholicism. Is there anything related to the faith? Aren't we all "catholics" first?
I think what drew me to Orthodoxy was the hats...yes the hats.
I think Erik Ybarra and reason and theology can help you alot i think this topic is over simplified because when i look at the councils and the church fathers writings the papacy is there …. Its fine if people disagree with me but if you disagree with me we can always talk voice to voice and really engage not just comment back and forth but I pray for you brother in Christ
Hi I think you might be new here, but those two have been called out, shown as incoherent, admitting Orthodox positions, been caught lying (with screenshots), refuse to debate the obvious people that called them out.
Also, it would be interesting to see Vatican 1 and 2 in church history, it's usually just papal quote mining. people start looking at Orthodoxy when they see the contradictions of that. For example, nicea one
Well, remember this was not intended to be and is not an apologetic video, Ubi Petrus has wonderful response videos to those guys. This was just an overview of why I made the decisions I did. Just so you know, I did listen to Ybarra and R&T, and that is major reason I am Orthodox now. Just found it lacking in the face of better historiography and reasoning.
The existence of the papacy and the infallibility/supreme
Universal immediate jurisdiction of the papacy are two different things. You will find the bishop of Rome highly honored among the early church, but you will not find the Vatican 1 papacy there. It did not exist.
I appreciate the reference here. I respect one's decision to go EO especially if they gave a fair investigation into the Catholic claims.
@@Erick_Ybarra Thank You Erik 👍 as you can see many had things to say about you 👀 but I appreciate your humility
CIX! My friend... the papal claims that you so sadly contorted yourself to try to reconcile by some pseudo 'eastern catholic' perspective are simply rooted in the Gospel of our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ. In this regard for 1000 years the Church in East and West lived implicitly what was made somewhat explicit at Vatican I. I say somewhat because Vat I did not even exhaust the fulness of those claims as taught by, for example, St Leo the Great in the 5th century. Read: 'The Church of God ' by Louis Bouyer. The sad witness of poorly convinced and poorly taught eastern catholic teachers and mentors in your experience have tragically shortchanged you of a truly Orthodox - Catholic ecclesiastical vision. One that many in Orthodoxy even recognize as valid and arguable patristically speaking (eg. Oliver Clement). Take another 'deeper' and more authentic look and you will see in eastern Catholicism the very prophecy of the fullness of Orthodoxy and Catholicity lived in communion.
Thanks but no. I do like Bouyer though, I’ve read him extensively. His “Rite and Man” is golden. But no, Vat 1 is nonsense.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 Thank-you for the reply. Well 'thanks but no' and 'Vat 1 is nonsense', does not leave much room for dialogue, still Raymond, as the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom and as humility it the root of that authentic fear of the true theologian which opens the nous to divine Light, let me leave you with this simple and humble thought (and challenge) regarding your present papal position: if you really do love the Fathers as the foundational articulation of a truly Orthodox-Catholic ecclesiology founded and intended by Christ, if you do think Bouyer is indeed a contemporary theologian who can produce 'gold' and who knows those Fathers well, then give a little time to 'The Church of God' by the latter. While the entire work is excellent, see what he says concerning Vat I and the papal claims made therein and the profound patristic pillars through the centuries which testify to that Petrine ministry as belonging to the very nature of the ecclesia built by the Wise Builder. What can you lose..???. if your able to refute Bouyer and his take on the Fathers, your position may be that much stronger indeed. And... if not... maybe you can come back home. ;) May the Lord Jesus, The Rock Who builds on rock, guide you to salvation.
@@fatherteodosy5607 I have no interest in “dialogue,” my mind is made up.
It's tanGENtial, btw, not tanDENtial...
It's complicated...🙄🙏✝️🕊️🤱🩸♥️
Welcome home ❤
Are you vaccinated?
Hell no. All organic free range Orthodox baby.
@@raymondvincentthm1642 hello Raymond. Your video on Russian- speak
ruclips.net/video/CfNIBBVm1yU/видео.htmlsi=Cit_2Obx-CtTTj25
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_Toth
Many years!
Many years!