I also have a BS/IT with a concentration in Software Development but I am mostly self-taught. I found that the few programming courses I had to take hardly went beyond the "Hello, World!" level. They never talked about best practices or programming patterns or anything beyond basic syntax. And, face it, nobody cares anymore that I had a 3.92 grade average. :D
I became a VB programmer in 1995. Around 97 I switched to C++ and embedded systems with some assembly thrown in for good measure... Around 2012 I started writing C# and I've been doing that ever since. I am pretty successful and I can demand a comfortable salary and finding jobs is fairly quick and painless for me, but I sometimes feel like I'm missing out on knowledge that I would have gotten in a university. Particularly in math. Also I've never been a supervisor or manager and at my age I feel like I should have been although I never want to stop writing code. That is my true love.
If you love writing code, I would recommend against management. Unless there is some joy you are looking for with being a manager, don't feel bad about not becoming one. Being a manager does not define you as a person or make you better.
Thank you Tim - I'll hop on the no degree train. I obtained an Associate in Information Systems from my local community college back when we were networking in NT but didn't actually secure a career in the field until much later so the degree was really no good. My hiring manager told me I was hired over others (whom had more "paper support" than I did) because I actually had answers to their "off the wall" questions for one, but also did so without hesitation. They weren't looking for a highly advanced techie, they were looking for someone who could think on their feet, brought an attitude that would really work well with the team in place, and someone excited to learn. It may have been just the right place at the right time, but be authentic and be yourself in an interview and the extra paper won't matter as much.
This is great timing, I just got accepted for my first job as a C# dev yesterday and I'm starting on 1st of December. I only have high school matura, no uni or anything. From my interviews, recruiters asked me if I plan on studying further (which I don't plan to) so they know if I will be having time to also do my job.
Great video. I currently have 4 years of experience as a software developer for a company but do not have a Bachelors. I'm going back to school to get a software development degree for the exact reason you mentioned near the end of the video. To get through those HR firewalls.
Havent watched the video yet but i work in automation and auditing. Mostly Powershell and C#. I do not have a degree myself, but even if i did, i would prolly not mention it. There are multiple ways to show your work attitude and experience and if the potentional employer still tunnelvisions a degree, its a big red light for me. For those interested why i do not have a degree: It takes 5 years to finish. And usually there are major changes from my experience every 1,5 years at least. Lets assume that unis teach latest greatest tech (lol), then by the time you are done, your first 3,5 years are for obsolete stuff which you could spend earning money and growing your business.
I agree Corey. Back in the gold rush of the late 90s I had just come home after 11 years working on F-15s for the USAF and a contractor for the Royal Saudi Air Force. I took a six week course in client/server from Clark University. The only time that not having a degree slowed me down was when I moved back to Boston when my dad was in hospice, so I took a year off and found myself highly discounted. But it worked out. For a software guy in DC, you might need the degree, but also check into certifications like Security+.
I don’t have a degree, and I’ve been working as a software engineer for *cough* 33 years. Without a degree, it’s very hard to get past HR or recruiter screening. Tim’s advice about networking is spot-on: this can get you past gatekeepers. Marketing yourself is also an important skill to develop: build a portfolio, attend meetups, follow people in your area and/or specialty on Twitter and (when appropriate) join in the conversations, write articles and post them on LinkedIn, contribute to an open source project... do what you can to stand out from the herd. Most of all, though, be persistent. Keep at it, keep looking for openings and opportunities. You’ll need this mindset once you get the job.
I started programming on C64 at age 12. In high school I had Basic, Pascal, Fortran, and Cobol. I went to college for computer science just to get a piece of paper. I found a development job 1/2 way through college so quit after I just got an Associates degree (2 yr). Few years ago I got rejected from even interviewing from a company because I didn't have a 4 year degree. I have 20 years profession software development experience and they still didn't care. Software classes don't help when it comes to the "REAL WORLD". Real world is where I have learned more.
I'm a Sr. B.I Developer who uses SQL, SSIS, SSRS, and C# daily. I've been programming for 20 years with no degree. I learned through videos like Tims and books. I've never needed a degree since none of my projects have required me to write complex algorithms or use complicated math. They was all straight forward database , dba, web, and C# apps for various tasks. I've also interviewed people for 20 years and just skip the degree part of their resume because I've met so many people with degrees who sucked at programming and/or were not thorough at all, so I just look at experience and ask lots of questions during the interview. If they know C# and SQL well and can get our projects done, I dont care at all if they have a degree.
Great question. I have my personal understanding for 2 or 3 of them and how they can be separated. It would be nice to hear Tim's opinion about this question.
The people who write job descriptions often use those titles interchangeably. It happens so often that in my opinion it doesn’t really matter if they call it software engineer, software developer, or programmer. What matters is looking at the technology stack described in the job description. When you go to an interview they will ask you about the technology stack you used and what role you played rather than what your title was previously.
This is interesting.... I don't have any cert in computer science. I started out with VB6 20 years ago. Thanks God...by following the path, I know C# now and working with C#.
The last 2 dev questions (age and degree) have given this 48-year-old former lawyer with an honours undergrad in chemistry real hope that I can transition my current position as a NetSuite Administrator and SuiteCloud Developer into a career in C# software development. Thank you.
Totally agree with your points here Tim. The longer I'm in the profession, the more I see a very big distinction between college-level academic computer science, and the software engineering career. Degrees seem very much geared towards creating research scientists who are focused on inventing new tools and algorithm improvements. But the career requirements normally require someone who is capable of using existing tools in new ways. So I would say it would be more appropriate for a dev entering the market to go through a trade school or boot camp than to go to a full-fledged degree program.
Tim I can possibly guess that you have been playing around with the new features coming in the new version of C#9. I am pumped on the new record types and the ability of creating the "new ()" instance of an object. So much new stuff to absorb with what is coming.
I finished accounting at college and worked as finance Controller. I switched to programming by writing and selling accounting software to my previous employer. Now I prepare for a Sd interview and possible job in .Net development. Tim's yt resources were among the most important materials that started me on this path. PS. I have strong background in programming during high school, some Cs classes at business college and having coding a side hobby for years.
Been a Developer for over 20 years. Multiple languages. Still going strong. High School dropout. Oh yes, I also do Server / PC installs and hardware support. Large corporate clients. Self employed.
Honestly Tim you're indeed an awesome teacher, now , i told my interviewer "here's my past work, hire me, and hire 10 phd's, i'll do the job that make money for the company, and you can satisfy your company of having 10 phd's in it" luckily the interviewer was a realistic and rational person,,, After that i started training the people they hired, put plans, do the back-end work, guiding the front-end interns.. etc , finished 3 successful projects, the head of the company was a phd guy interfered over and over with his academic point of view that lack good and deep understanding of realistic needs and capabilities of the technology and lack futuristic growth plans for the projects, eventually i left, waiting now for the same cycle to start again. point here, yes definitely one can have a job without a college degree, but be prepared for that college people my have no idea of the reality in software development, so try your best with people as you do with coding.
It all depends on the company and the situation. I've been the IT Director without a degree managing people (some of whom had advanced degrees) and I've been under PhD's. It comes down to who your manager is and how you work with them. I have found that the more you work to support and help your manager, the better off you will be (not saying it will be perfect).
@@IAmTimCorey yes you're right indeed, I was the projects manager there, It can be a long talk for you to read, how i managed to create a middle ground by satisfy the phd company owners and the projects needs in a long run, man .. in short .. idk what they teach them in college but it ain't software technology,,, have a good day.
I did as well. Started life as electronic engineer. First job at a university as a AV technician. Later on they had a shortage of web developers and found out I could code. Now I am an ERP developer. It is more difficult without a degree to go job hunting though.
This was really spot on! I also started developing without a degree (2000) and got one in 2017! Always felt like I needed the “leverage” of a degree to search for a job. I believe it can also boost your self confidence when you get one. You’ll have something to be proud of. Keep up the good work Tim, you’re inspiring to people like me to keep on learning and discovering new things!
Thanks mr. Corey for the words great video. Right now I'm a Chemical Engineer, and as you mentioned the only way I could pass the filters at the end were, in both my past and actual job, when I could get to the practical test with a webpage or a written logic test. Most of the time I got the auto-reject. I suppose I will have to do... something expensive if I want to get a new Job, something like a Master's degree. But I also could ensure you could be a great developer without the degree just study and practice practice and keep trying.
I agree, keep trying and practicing. Build you portfolio with working apps beyond class assignments. Network via meet-ups, programming clubs, and LinkedIn. I know folks with doctorates but no portfolio that could not get jobs. A word of warning: Higher degrees CAN (not always) hurt you because companies assume you expect more pay based on the higher degree. Experience may be a better route for many folks consider - www.iamtimcorey.com/blog/32437/csharp-work-experience
My first programming job was in 1985, so degrees in the subject were hard to find. Nobody expected any qualifications back then, just the ability to read and write code. I still don't have any degrees, but I'm tempted to give it a go after 35 years working as a software developer.
Stop being afraid like Tim I didn’t have a degree when I start my carrer as software engineer now I working as consultants for one of world’s 500 largest. I quit my job in marketing in June 2019 Go and vacation. In august I made my book 2 projects in vba(Excel and access) 3 projects in wpf ,(thanks Tim for your free classes and paid classes ) and one project on Xamarin.Form then on December I get hired after one hour technical interview Ps do the weekly challenges
I obtained my BSIS back in the early 90s not to get a new job, but to keep doors from closing on me. I started working on a BSEE and switched when I started working with computers and had to learn COBOL.
Hi Tim! first thanks for your amazing work, I really appreciated it. I'm interested to know your todo list when you've to refactor an existing project that you've never seen before. How can you carry out the task? What do you look at first? On what aspects do you focus on? What aspects do you improve and which you bypass at all? Please let me know if I was not clear. Hope this is a future question on dev question series 😊
@@michaelnurse9089 try to send your summary to HR or something. You know I have a friend. He have a trouble - can't find job with his javascript skills. Skills not so much... Junior or maybe intern. So what I trying to speak. He never message to companies. He just... I dunno. Frightened. He is in fear of incompetence. And this feeling is blocking him. This is no education affair.
I know C# but in as a junior class. Ive created several projects on VS, like making a pyramid of stars, calculating any year if it was a leap year or not, and best of yet, reading the size of the folders my pc contains in the C drive. Am I ready to apply for a job as a junior? I dont have a degree yet..
Depends on if you live in Norway or not. Here it does not matter how much you know. All that matters is that you have DEGREES and MORE THAN ONE. One thing I miss about living in the USA and Canada.
Before throwing thousands dollars in a degree, my suggestion is taking $250 out of that thousands of dollars or do a 50$ monthly plan and invest it in ”Foundation in C# with Tim Corey” You will be ten times ready than having a degree or going to a bootcamp. I have a degree in CS but after my graduation back in May. I have decided to pay a monthly subscription for Iamtimcorey.com to learn C# again. I can’t even compare the foundation I have build in Software development with my degree. Not only I have learned C# better but software development in a next level. In my opinion “Foundation in C# with Tim Corey” is a PhD degree itself.
I know you mention this, but building projects and gaining experience is very crucial for a developer of any kind. The reason being is employers are looking for results on what you can do as well as a portfolio is concern. A degree is good for theory, but not to the extent that it will get you a position in the software development field. What is your advice when studying and making the portfolio projects? How many projects would I need to build to showcase to a potential employer and possibly get the job?
I won't speak for Tim, bui I can give my experience based on being a career coach and hiring manager. Portfolio projects need to showcase your level of skill and polish. The number of projects is not as important as how well it shows what you can do. Clean, easy to navigate and IT WORKS. Quality over quantity.
Yeas ago I was working at a paper goods plant and was talking to a guy in the toolroom on site. One question that came up was why do you need a degree to work in here? His answer was something that I never thought about before. He said that the reason they want a degree is because it shows them that you are able to complete something.
I just dropped out from the University of California Irvine UCI (3rd year) for the reason you just mentioned. The school hasn't taught me even 5% of what I've learned on my own regarding my projects' requirements.
Hi Tim! Thank you for what you are doing to us, people who want to learn and become better at programming. Could you please make a video about handling dos attacks, a very interesting topic as for me.
That's a little outside what I cover in C#. Handling DoS and DDoS attacks is best handled at the network layer. Check out Cloudflare as one option. Azure has some nice edge tools that will help you mitigate attacks like this.
I see so many comments starting with "Back when I started...". Unfortunately, you are going to start today and things are going to be different. A degree might not be important but it sure is needed to wade through the intense competition out there. It's not the 1980s-90s anymore.
Actually, back then a degree was more important than it is today. I was fortunate to get a break without a degree. It was definitely because of who I knew. Now, it is much easier to get a job without a degree. I'm not saying that the competition isn't intense, but you aren't disadvantaged if you can prove you have the skills compared to someone who has a degree.
Some may need glasses but anyone can See Sharp :-) Seriously though. I only have an AAS which didn’t teach much and I’ve done very very well in C# and the field as a whole. Skill > education.
Best way to pack a resume without a college degree? Trying to become a C# Dev. Is games developed worth putting on a resume? And I know I should do open source stuff
Great questions. I was job search coach before joining Tim's team. I always coach that you want to focus on skills your have. Tools, languages, frameworks you can confidently work with. Customize your resume for the job/company you are posting for. If they make games, show case the game work. If its anyone else, showcase the business related work. That does not mean you can't list gaming, but you don't feature it. When writing the resume, think from the companies perspective (may want to get help on this). What is important to them, may not be what is as important to you. Hint, the job posting/description will be a huge help here. The better your resume matches the posting (it will never be a perfect match), the better your chances to get noticed. The goal of the resume is to get you noticed. The interview gets you the job. Education is just a small section near the end of your resume. One last note, focus on content and plain text format first. Upload that version to job posts because its easier for company's online systems to read. You can carry your eye catching version to the interview. Rating yourself on skill level does not buy you much, just list the skills/tools/languages, and repeating them is fine (good actually). Example: near top list Languages: C#, Java, HTML, etc,: Tools: ... Frameworks:..., other areas you have skills in. Next have 'Experience' where you list jobs/projects and give bullet lists on each stating what YOU did, don't care what your team did. Repeat the skills here also. Did I mention.. Customize your resume for EACH job/company you are posting for. :-)
If you are a good developer but don't have a degree, apply to work to Tesla, SpaceX or any of the Elon Musk company. Elon Musk specifically said he doesn't care whether you have a degree or whether you even graduate from high school so long as you are good. But you better be good.
Certifications in general are tough to get right. At the end of the day, it is a test people study for. That means people get certified who don't understand the content. That is a testing integrity problem. Microsoft has continued to change their exams to try to fight this (with some success). Now, there isn't even a true C# certification (as of January). It is all Azure-focused for development.
Building up your experience and portfolio is also important. Check out my blog post - www.iamtimcorey.com/blog/32437/csharp-work-experience. And for Portfolio - ruclips.net/video/Q_11dKLFxPg/видео.html
I'm going to repeat for you what I sharing with another subscriber: Don't give up. My suggestion, find online meet-ups for your area related to C#/.NET. Engage with the people, talk to them and make connections. Use tools like LinkedIn to connect with folks in companies that show C# openings. Ask them questions about what other tools they use and what its like working there. I know its a nasty word, but 'network' with folks to find contacts. Think about this as your current "job". It has two parts, continue building your skills/portfolio as well as connecting with folks at companies that use C#/.Net. You can do this. Side note: consider polishing your online image. "Notverygoodatall" may not project the image employers are looking for. You earned a degree and you are still building skills. You can do this!! Check out this video - ruclips.net/video/b4GzbZhjE1A/видео.html
Associate Computer Science degree is where I should have stopped for computer formal education. The next two years would have been better spent on the job as the academic experience didn't really translate to practical business experience.
So I am a lawyer who switched to tech and landed a job as a software dev. I just picked up C#. What ammo do I need? I really like c#. What are the things that handicap me? Hope to get a feedback.
Tony, If you have not already, be sure to check out this video - ruclips.net/video/LUv20QxXjfw/видео.html It is intended to help you assess where you are and the topics you need to add to your base skills. I hope it will help you fill in any gaps. My goal is to make becoming a developer easier and I hope I can help you be successful through your full journey!
No college anywhere can teach you everything about coding for all the possible development out there. You may find that you've spent 4 years in college and the only coding work you can get is work you're not prepared for. At that point, you're on your own anyway. Teachers who only teach and have never had to meet a deadline aren't going to prepare you either. I've seen numerous teachers still teaching out of date coding practices with APIs that are being phased out.
It all depends on the company. A LOT don't care what degree you have. Others are pretty stuck on a Computer Science degree. Some don't care if you have a degree at all (this section is growing). The biggest thing will be showing that you can build software. Demonstrate that and you will be well off.
I have a bachelors degree, but not in CS. Wouldn't this still show that I can complete a task that's given. Also, can you cover the benefits/hinderances of a software bootcamp?
Not in my opinion. Remember that what an employer is trying to evaluate is your skill. A certification does not show skill, really. It shows that you passed a test. The same is true for a degree. Some companies will favor one over the other but at the end of the day, they are each looking to evaluate your skill.
If you are looking for recommendations on the C# Mastercourse, check out the comments on this video: ruclips.net/video/Si7he5KVH7w/видео.htmlsi=DqnDgww9OI-Tw7ZH I just talked with a person the other day who used just that course to go from just starting out to being employed as a mid-level C# developer. As he said, it took hard work to do that, but the course was absolutely helpful in that journey.
God, I hate C# and everything that micro$hit does. But if you want to be successful in learning it with no IT background, let me give you a golden advice, guys: Learn basics of C first. Like one weekend course and you are good. If you don't know C, you can read like 10 pages of docs and tutorials about what is a delegate and yet you still can't fully comprehend or understand the point of it, but if you know some C and you see one line in docs such as 'equivalent of a function pointer from c/cpp' then you don't have to read anything else.
This is not great advice. It probably feels like good advice, but as someone who has trained hundreds of developers in person and seen hundreds more who went this route, it just isn’t good advice.
Yeah lucky us who spent a lot of money and time on getting a degree, i started noticing how useless it is the moment i started searching for a developer jobs, NONE seemed to care about my degree and they never ever ask about it, all they ask about is the freaking experience...
I don't have a degree. Companies who require degrees are usually shitty government owned companies or huge foreign corporations with corporate bullshit riddled work environments which i would never want to work for in the first place. Avoid companies which insist on degrees like plague
I disagree with your assertion about who asks for degrees. Once you have spent some time on the other side of the hiring table, you will realize that it is very hard to figure out who is qualified and who is just saying they are. Adding the degree as a requirement allows you to ensure that the candidates have at least been formally educated in their field (the theory, mostly). While that won't give the candidate many on the job skills, it is better than nothing and it allows you to reduce the amount of resumes you look at. You probably still have over 100 to look at. While I don't agree with using a degree as a filter either, I can empathize with those who do. They are just trying to figure out how best to filter their list.
Get a college or university degree anyway, it doesn’t matter how great a coder you become without it, you will never be moved up to management without a degree. At one point you are going to start seeing your peers get promoted into management.
Indicator i dont know. The correlation is obvious and easily googlable though. You can even find iq by major pretty quickly and its exactly what you'd expect. Also you can see the LOWEST iq major is like 103, which is by definition still ABOVE average. (this also easily disproves the "everyone can be a developer :)" narrative, but i understand that a lot of teachers either cant see or cant say that)
Degrees are overrated and a business in disguise. It's a multi-billion dollar market that benefits campuses. I've seen countless employers put more emphasis on a stupid degree than 20 years of military experience. Really? So 4 years of partying in a frat house is more important than being able to lead, work in a harsh and stressful environment, be ready to deploy on short notice, and discipline to stay fit? Give me a break!
@@IAmTimCorey I'd like to know those companies because based on my experience, many military retirees (20+ years in service) are forced to go back to school to expand their job opportunities. Yes, one can say, "you should've taken your degree while in the service" but whoever is saying that is missing the point. Plus many jobs in the service require you to work stupidly long hours, deploy frequently, and if you have a family, say goodbye to sleep and free time.
I also have a BS/IT with a concentration in Software Development but I am mostly self-taught. I found that the few programming courses I had to take hardly went beyond the "Hello, World!" level. They never talked about best practices or programming patterns or anything beyond basic syntax. And, face it, nobody cares anymore that I had a 3.92 grade average. :D
That is reality. Thanks for sharing.
I became a VB programmer in 1995. Around 97 I switched to C++ and embedded systems with some assembly thrown in for good measure... Around 2012 I started writing C# and I've been doing that ever since.
I am pretty successful and I can demand a comfortable salary and finding jobs is fairly quick and painless for me, but I sometimes feel like I'm missing out on knowledge that I would have gotten in a university. Particularly in math. Also I've never been a supervisor or manager and at my age I feel like I should have been although I never want to stop writing code. That is my true love.
If you love writing code, I would recommend against management. Unless there is some joy you are looking for with being a manager, don't feel bad about not becoming one. Being a manager does not define you as a person or make you better.
Thank you Tim - I'll hop on the no degree train. I obtained an Associate in Information Systems from my local community college back when we were networking in NT but didn't actually secure a career in the field until much later so the degree was really no good.
My hiring manager told me I was hired over others (whom had more "paper support" than I did) because I actually had answers to their "off the wall" questions for one, but also did so without hesitation. They weren't looking for a highly advanced techie, they were looking for someone who could think on their feet, brought an attitude that would really work well with the team in place, and someone excited to learn. It may have been just the right place at the right time, but be authentic and be yourself in an interview and the extra paper won't matter as much.
Very well said, and thanks for sharing your story.
This is great timing, I just got accepted for my first job as a C# dev yesterday and I'm starting on 1st of December.
I only have high school matura, no uni or anything.
From my interviews, recruiters asked me if I plan on studying further (which I don't plan to) so they know if I will be having time to also do my job.
Congratulations on the job!
Great video. I currently have 4 years of experience as a software developer for a company but do not have a Bachelors. I'm going back to school to get a software development degree for the exact reason you mentioned near the end of the video. To get through those HR firewalls.
Best of luck! Thanks for sharing.
Havent watched the video yet but i work in automation and auditing. Mostly Powershell and C#. I do not have a degree myself, but even if i did, i would prolly not mention it. There are multiple ways to show your work attitude and experience and if the potentional employer still tunnelvisions a degree, its a big red light for me. For those interested why i do not have a degree: It takes 5 years to finish. And usually there are major changes from my experience every 1,5 years at least. Lets assume that unis teach latest greatest tech (lol), then by the time you are done, your first 3,5 years are for obsolete stuff which you could spend earning money and growing your business.
Thanks for sharing
I agree Corey. Back in the gold rush of the late 90s I had just come home after 11 years working on F-15s for the USAF and a contractor for the Royal Saudi Air Force. I took a six week course in client/server from Clark University. The only time that not having a degree slowed me down was when I moved back to Boston when my dad was in hospice, so I took a year off and found myself highly discounted. But it worked out. For a software guy in DC, you might need the degree, but also check into certifications like Security+.
Security is a hot top currently. Thanks for sharing
I don’t have a degree, and I’ve been working as a software engineer for *cough* 33 years.
Without a degree, it’s very hard to get past HR or recruiter screening. Tim’s advice about networking is spot-on: this can get you past gatekeepers.
Marketing yourself is also an important skill to develop: build a portfolio, attend meetups, follow people in your area and/or specialty on Twitter and (when appropriate) join in the conversations, write articles and post them on LinkedIn, contribute to an open source project... do what you can to stand out from the herd. Most of all, though, be persistent. Keep at it, keep looking for openings and opportunities. You’ll need this mindset once you get the job.
Well said!!
Same here. Let's not forget age discrimination. A lot of tech companies (cough, Google) won't even look at you if you're over 30.
I started programming on C64 at age 12. In high school I had Basic, Pascal, Fortran, and Cobol. I went to college for computer science just to get a piece of paper. I found a development job 1/2 way through college so quit after I just got an Associates degree (2 yr). Few years ago I got rejected from even interviewing from a company because I didn't have a 4 year degree. I have 20 years profession software development experience and they still didn't care. Software classes don't help when it comes to the "REAL WORLD". Real world is where I have learned more.
Experience is a great teacher! That company's loss.
I'm a Sr. B.I Developer who uses SQL, SSIS, SSRS, and C# daily. I've been programming for 20 years with no degree. I learned through videos like Tims and books. I've never needed a degree since none of my projects have required me to write complex algorithms or use complicated math. They was all straight forward database , dba, web, and C# apps for various tasks.
I've also interviewed people for 20 years and just skip the degree part of their resume because I've met so many people with degrees who sucked at programming and/or were not thorough at all, so I just look at experience and ask lots of questions during the interview. If they know C# and SQL well and can get our projects done, I dont care at all if they have a degree.
Thanks for sharing.
future topic: the difference between software engineer, software developer, programmer and coder.
Noted and added to the list.
Great question. I have my personal understanding for 2 or 3 of them and how they can be separated. It would be nice to hear Tim's opinion about this question.
The people who write job descriptions often use those titles interchangeably. It happens so often that in my opinion it doesn’t really matter if they call it software engineer, software developer, or programmer. What matters is looking at the technology stack described in the job description. When you go to an interview they will ask you about the technology stack you used and what role you played rather than what your title was previously.
This is interesting....
I don't have any cert in computer science.
I started out with VB6 20 years ago.
Thanks God...by following the path, I know C# now and working with C#.
Good to hear, thanks for sharing
I have two degrees. Both are in non-computer engineering. I've been working as a professional developer for 30+ years.
Thanks for sharing.
The last 2 dev questions (age and degree) have given this 48-year-old former lawyer with an honours undergrad in chemistry real hope that I can transition my current position as a NetSuite Administrator and SuiteCloud Developer into a career in C# software development. Thank you.
Awesome!
Totally agree with your points here Tim.
The longer I'm in the profession, the more I see a very big distinction between college-level academic computer science, and the software engineering career. Degrees seem very much geared towards creating research scientists who are focused on inventing new tools and algorithm improvements. But the career requirements normally require someone who is capable of using existing tools in new ways.
So I would say it would be more appropriate for a dev entering the market to go through a trade school or boot camp than to go to a full-fledged degree program.
Thanks for the insights
Tim I can possibly guess that you have been playing around with the new features coming in the new version of C#9. I am pumped on the new record types and the ability of creating the "new ()" instance of an object. So much new stuff to absorb with what is coming.
I finished accounting at college and worked as finance Controller. I switched to programming by writing and selling accounting software to my previous employer. Now I prepare for a Sd interview and possible job in .Net development. Tim's yt resources were among the most important materials that started me on this path. PS. I have strong background in programming during high school, some Cs classes at business college and having coding a side hobby for years.
I am glad my content has been so helpful.
Absolutely. The challenge is getting the opportunity to show your talent.
Yes, that is where your portfolio comes in. I discuss that here - ruclips.net/video/Q_11dKLFxPg/видео.html
Been a Developer for over 20 years. Multiple languages. Still going strong. High School dropout. Oh yes, I also do Server / PC installs and hardware support. Large corporate clients. Self employed.
Thanks for sharing. This is good for folks to hear.
Honestly Tim you're indeed an awesome teacher, now , i told my interviewer "here's my past work, hire me, and hire 10 phd's, i'll do the job that make money for the company, and you can satisfy your company of having 10 phd's in it" luckily the interviewer was a realistic and rational person,,, After that i started training the people they hired, put plans, do the back-end work, guiding the front-end interns.. etc , finished 3 successful projects, the head of the company was a phd guy interfered over and over with his academic point of view that lack good and deep understanding of realistic needs and capabilities of the technology and lack futuristic growth plans for the projects, eventually i left, waiting now for the same cycle to start again.
point here, yes definitely one can have a job without a college degree, but be prepared for that college people my have no idea of the reality in software development, so try your best with people as you do with coding.
It all depends on the company and the situation. I've been the IT Director without a degree managing people (some of whom had advanced degrees) and I've been under PhD's. It comes down to who your manager is and how you work with them. I have found that the more you work to support and help your manager, the better off you will be (not saying it will be perfect).
@@IAmTimCorey yes you're right indeed,
I was the projects manager there, It can be a long talk for you to read, how i managed to create a middle ground by satisfy the phd company owners and the projects needs in a long run, man .. in short .. idk what they teach them in college but it ain't software technology,,, have a good day.
I did as well. Started life as electronic engineer. First job at a university as a AV technician. Later on they had a shortage of web developers and found out I could code. Now I am an ERP developer. It is more difficult without a degree to go job hunting though.
Some universities are offering "Micro Degrees" now. May be worth considering.
This was really spot on! I also started developing without a degree (2000) and got one in 2017! Always felt like I needed the “leverage” of a degree to search for a job. I believe it can also boost your self confidence when you get one. You’ll have something to be proud of.
Keep up the good work Tim, you’re inspiring to people like me to keep on learning and discovering new things!
Thank you for the kind words. I am glad my content has been so helpful.
Thanks mr. Corey for the words great video. Right now I'm a Chemical Engineer, and as you mentioned the only way I could pass the filters at the end were, in both my past and actual job, when I could get to the practical test with a webpage or a written logic test. Most of the time I got the auto-reject. I suppose I will have to do... something expensive if I want to get a new Job, something like a Master's degree. But I also could ensure you could be a great developer without the degree just study and practice practice and keep trying.
I agree, keep trying and practicing. Build you portfolio with working apps beyond class assignments. Network via meet-ups, programming clubs, and LinkedIn. I know folks with doctorates but no portfolio that could not get jobs.
A word of warning: Higher degrees CAN (not always) hurt you because companies assume you expect more pay based on the higher degree. Experience may be a better route for many folks consider - www.iamtimcorey.com/blog/32437/csharp-work-experience
My first programming job was in 1985, so degrees in the subject were hard to find. Nobody expected any qualifications back then, just the ability to read and write code. I still don't have any degrees, but I'm tempted to give it a go after 35 years working as a software developer.
If you are doing it for self-fulfillment, go for it!
Stop being afraid like Tim I didn’t have a degree when I start my carrer as software engineer now I working as consultants for one of world’s 500 largest.
I quit my job in marketing in June 2019 Go and vacation. In august I made my book 2 projects in vba(Excel and access) 3 projects in wpf ,(thanks Tim for your free classes and paid classes ) and one project on Xamarin.Form then on December I get hired after one hour technical interview
Ps do the weekly challenges
Thanks for sharing. As for the Weekly Challenges, the content is coming back in a new format soon.
I obtained my BSIS back in the early 90s not to get a new job, but to keep doors from closing on me. I started working on a BSEE and switched when I started working with computers and had to learn COBOL.
Thanks for sharing
Hi Tim!
first thanks for your amazing work, I really appreciated it.
I'm interested to know your todo list when you've to refactor an existing project that you've never seen before.
How can you carry out the task? What do you look at first? On what aspects do you focus on? What aspects do you improve and which you bypass at all?
Please let me know if I was not clear.
Hope this is a future question on dev question series 😊
Great suggestion! Added to the list.
Absolutely. You can succeed as any “Software Developer “ using any programming language. Not just as C#
Confirm with my own example. You can.
Agree.
No. I also know Turbo Pascal and MS Basic 3.3 - nobody is hiring right now.
@@michaelnurse9089 try to send your summary to HR or something. You know I have a friend. He have a trouble - can't find job with his javascript skills. Skills not so much... Junior or maybe intern. So what I trying to speak. He never message to companies. He just... I dunno. Frightened. He is in fear of incompetence. And this feeling is blocking him. This is no education affair.
I know C# but in as a junior class. Ive created several projects on VS, like making a pyramid of stars, calculating any year if it was a leap year or not, and best of yet, reading the size of the folders my pc contains in the C drive. Am I ready to apply for a job as a junior? I dont have a degree yet..
Depends on if you live in Norway or not. Here it does not matter how much you know. All that matters is that you have DEGREES and MORE THAN ONE. One thing I miss about living in the USA and Canada.
Yep, where you live does make a difference.
Before throwing thousands dollars in a degree, my suggestion is taking $250 out of that thousands of dollars or do a 50$ monthly plan and invest it in ”Foundation in C# with Tim Corey” You will be ten times ready than having a degree or going to a bootcamp. I have a degree in CS but after my graduation back in May. I have decided to pay a monthly subscription for Iamtimcorey.com to learn C# again. I can’t even compare the foundation I have build in Software development with my degree. Not only I have learned C# better but software development in a next level. In my opinion “Foundation in C# with Tim Corey” is a PhD degree itself.
Awesome! I am glad you found it so valuable.
I know you mention this, but building projects and gaining experience is very crucial for a developer of any kind. The reason being is employers are looking for results on what you can do as well as a portfolio is concern. A degree is good for theory, but not to the extent that it will get you a position in the software development field. What is your advice when studying and making the portfolio projects? How many projects would I need to build to showcase to a potential employer and possibly get the job?
I won't speak for Tim, bui I can give my experience based on being a career coach and hiring manager. Portfolio projects need to showcase your level of skill and polish. The number of projects is not as important as how well it shows what you can do. Clean, easy to navigate and IT WORKS. Quality over quantity.
@@tomthelestaff-iamtimcorey7597 thank you for your advice. I'll look into that perspective on how to go about building a portfolio.
Yeas ago I was working at a paper goods plant and was talking to a guy in the toolroom on site. One question that came up was why do you need a degree to work in here? His answer was something that I never thought about before. He said that the reason they want a degree is because it shows them that you are able to complete something.
Yup. But they miss out on some great folks because of that.
I just dropped out from the University of California Irvine UCI (3rd year) for the reason you just mentioned. The school hasn't taught me even 5% of what I've learned on my own regarding my projects' requirements.
Best wishes on your journey ahead.
Hi Tim!
Thank you for what you are doing to us, people who want to learn and become better at programming.
Could you please make a video about handling dos attacks, a very interesting topic as for me.
That's a little outside what I cover in C#. Handling DoS and DDoS attacks is best handled at the network layer. Check out Cloudflare as one option. Azure has some nice edge tools that will help you mitigate attacks like this.
I see so many comments starting with "Back when I started...". Unfortunately, you are going to start today and things are going to be different. A degree might not be important but it sure is needed to wade through the intense competition out there. It's not the 1980s-90s anymore.
Actually, back then a degree was more important than it is today. I was fortunate to get a break without a degree. It was definitely because of who I knew. Now, it is much easier to get a job without a degree. I'm not saying that the competition isn't intense, but you aren't disadvantaged if you can prove you have the skills compared to someone who has a degree.
Some may need glasses but anyone can See Sharp :-) Seriously though. I only have an AAS which didn’t teach much and I’ve done very very well in C# and the field as a whole. Skill > education.
Thanks for sharing.
Will you be making a video on the new stuff .NET 5 has to offer and how its different from current/older versions?
Definitely. I am working on it now. I hope to have it rolled out in a couple of weeks.
I appreciate you man.
Thanks. I honestly appreciate you and your participation also.
Best way to pack a resume without a college degree? Trying to become a C# Dev. Is games developed worth putting on a resume? And I know I should do open source stuff
Great questions. I was job search coach before joining Tim's team. I always coach that you want to focus on skills your have. Tools, languages, frameworks you can confidently work with. Customize your resume for the job/company you are posting for. If they make games, show case the game work. If its anyone else, showcase the business related work. That does not mean you can't list gaming, but you don't feature it. When writing the resume, think from the companies perspective (may want to get help on this). What is important to them, may not be what is as important to you. Hint, the job posting/description will be a huge help here. The better your resume matches the posting (it will never be a perfect match), the better your chances to get noticed. The goal of the resume is to get you noticed. The interview gets you the job. Education is just a small section near the end of your resume. One last note, focus on content and plain text format first. Upload that version to job posts because its easier for company's online systems to read. You can carry your eye catching version to the interview. Rating yourself on skill level does not buy you much, just list the skills/tools/languages, and repeating them is fine (good actually). Example: near top list Languages: C#, Java, HTML, etc,: Tools: ... Frameworks:..., other areas you have skills in. Next have 'Experience' where you list jobs/projects and give bullet lists on each stating what YOU did, don't care what your team did. Repeat the skills here also. Did I mention.. Customize your resume for EACH job/company you are posting for. :-)
If you are a good developer but don't have a degree, apply to work to Tesla, SpaceX or any of the Elon Musk company. Elon Musk specifically said he doesn't care whether you have a degree or whether you even graduate from high school so long as you are good. But you better be good.
He is taking a different approach to what every company is trying to evaluate - do you have the skills necessary to do the job.
Thanks for the content. What are your thoughts on microsoft certifications??
Certifications in general are tough to get right. At the end of the day, it is a test people study for. That means people get certified who don't understand the content. That is a testing integrity problem. Microsoft has continued to change their exams to try to fight this (with some success). Now, there isn't even a true C# certification (as of January). It is all Azure-focused for development.
I am struggling to get a development job with a degree.
This is me
Building up your experience and portfolio is also important. Check out my blog post - www.iamtimcorey.com/blog/32437/csharp-work-experience.
And for Portfolio - ruclips.net/video/Q_11dKLFxPg/видео.html
I'm going to repeat for you what I sharing with another subscriber:
Don't give up. My suggestion, find online meet-ups for your area related to C#/.NET. Engage with the people, talk to them and make connections. Use tools like LinkedIn to connect with folks in companies that show C# openings. Ask them questions about what other tools they use and what its like working there. I know its a nasty word, but 'network' with folks to find contacts. Think about this as your current "job". It has two parts, continue building your skills/portfolio as well as connecting with folks at companies that use C#/.Net. You can do this. Side note: consider polishing your online image. "Notverygoodatall" may not project the image employers are looking for. You earned a degree and you are still building skills. You can do this!! Check out this video - ruclips.net/video/b4GzbZhjE1A/видео.html
@@IAmTimCorey Thanks for the advice!
Associate Computer Science degree is where I should have stopped for computer formal education. The next two years would have been better spent on the job as the academic experience didn't really translate to practical business experience.
There is truth in that, but many companies require a degree. Hopefully it will benefit you in the long run.
So I am a lawyer who switched to tech and landed a job as a software dev. I just picked up C#. What ammo do I need? I really like c#. What are the things that handicap me? Hope to get a feedback.
Tony, If you have not already, be sure to check out this video - ruclips.net/video/LUv20QxXjfw/видео.html It is intended to help you assess where you are and the topics you need to add to your base skills. I hope it will help you fill in any gaps. My goal is to make becoming a developer easier and I hope I can help you be successful through your full journey!
@@IAmTimCorey Thanks for the feedback. checking it now.
Topic suggestion: Difference between software engineering degree, computer science degree, and information technology degree.
Noted. Added to the list of possible future topics.
No college anywhere can teach you everything about coding for all the possible development out there. You may find that you've spent 4 years in college and the only coding work you can get is work you're not prepared for. At that point, you're on your own anyway. Teachers who only teach and have never had to meet a deadline aren't going to prepare you either. I've seen numerous teachers still teaching out of date coding practices with APIs that are being phased out.
Agreed.
Not anymore in The Netherlands.
But, it can be any degree.
You don't need to know anything about programming, you just need a degree.
Interesting. Curious to hear what others from that area think.
@@IAmTimCorey Well, I had 15 years succes without a degree 😁😇 Times change. 💔😞
I have a degree in physics and currently pursuing MSc in physics with electronics. Does this count as relevant degree in software in engineering
It all depends on the company. A LOT don't care what degree you have. Others are pretty stuck on a Computer Science degree. Some don't care if you have a degree at all (this section is growing). The biggest thing will be showing that you can build software. Demonstrate that and you will be well off.
I have a bachelors degree, but not in CS. Wouldn't this still show that I can complete a task that's given. Also, can you cover the benefits/hinderances of a software bootcamp?
Correct. A few businesses still insist on a CS degree, but that's more and more rare. As for covering bootcamps, I'll add that to the list.
Hey Tim, any thoughts on creating some videos using ML.net libraries using c#?
I probably will do some intro videos at some point, but not quite yet.
Mr Tim, do you have any plan to update your intro to web API to .net core?
Its added to the list of possible topics to cover.
I learnt C# in my university can I do job without degree?
That is what I answer in this video.
Thanks 😊
You are welcome.
Are certifications more valuable than degrees?
Not in my opinion. Remember that what an employer is trying to evaluate is your skill. A certification does not show skill, really. It shows that you passed a test. The same is true for a degree. Some companies will favor one over the other but at the end of the day, they are each looking to evaluate your skill.
anybody who took this course? is it good?, I need samples of videos to see if it is good for it is so expensive and udemy is cheap
If you are looking for recommendations on the C# Mastercourse, check out the comments on this video: ruclips.net/video/Si7he5KVH7w/видео.htmlsi=DqnDgww9OI-Tw7ZH
I just talked with a person the other day who used just that course to go from just starting out to being employed as a mid-level C# developer. As he said, it took hard work to do that, but the course was absolutely helpful in that journey.
I always felt that it is one of the prerequisites for C# developers to not have a degree.
LOL - not sure how to respond to that
Merci beaucoup Tim Corey pour votre vidéo
Charles Hébreux11 Kabimbi depuis la RD.CONGO
Je vous aime
You are welcome.
God, I hate C# and everything that micro$hit does.
But if you want to be successful in learning it with no IT background, let me give you a golden advice, guys:
Learn basics of C first. Like one weekend course and you are good.
If you don't know C, you can read like 10 pages of docs and tutorials about what is a delegate and yet you still can't fully comprehend or understand the point of it, but if you know some C and you see one line in docs such as 'equivalent of a function pointer from c/cpp' then you don't have to read anything else.
This is not great advice. It probably feels like good advice, but as someone who has trained hundreds of developers in person and seen hundreds more who went this route, it just isn’t good advice.
You can succeed in any programming language without a degree
I agree, but it takes a lot of hard work.
Yeah lucky us who spent a lot of money and time on getting a degree, i started noticing how useless it is the moment i started searching for a developer jobs, NONE seemed to care about my degree and they never ever ask about it, all they ask about is the freaking experience...
Experience is huge.
The degree helps get you past the HR filter.
Yep, it can. There are also ways around that, too, though.
I don't have a degree. Companies who require degrees are usually shitty government owned companies or huge foreign corporations with corporate bullshit riddled work environments which i would never want to work for in the first place. Avoid companies which insist on degrees like plague
I disagree with your assertion about who asks for degrees. Once you have spent some time on the other side of the hiring table, you will realize that it is very hard to figure out who is qualified and who is just saying they are. Adding the degree as a requirement allows you to ensure that the candidates have at least been formally educated in their field (the theory, mostly). While that won't give the candidate many on the job skills, it is better than nothing and it allows you to reduce the amount of resumes you look at. You probably still have over 100 to look at. While I don't agree with using a degree as a filter either, I can empathize with those who do. They are just trying to figure out how best to filter their list.
Get a college or university degree anyway, it doesn’t matter how great a coder you become without it, you will never be moved up to management without a degree. At one point you are going to start seeing your peers get promoted into management.
A degree just is not an option for many folks.
not in my country
A degree is just a 4 year long iq test.
Sadly we're not grown up enough to just have people take a 4 hour iq test instead.
I'm not sure a degree is any indicator of IQ, though.
Indicator i dont know. The correlation is obvious and easily googlable though.
You can even find iq by major pretty quickly and its exactly what you'd expect. Also you can see the LOWEST iq major is like 103, which is by definition still ABOVE average.
(this also easily disproves the "everyone can be a developer :)" narrative, but i understand that a lot of teachers either cant see or cant say that)
Degrees are overrated and a business in disguise. It's a multi-billion dollar market that benefits campuses. I've seen countless employers put more emphasis on a stupid degree than 20 years of military experience. Really? So 4 years of partying in a frat house is more important than being able to lead, work in a harsh and stressful environment, be ready to deploy on short notice, and discipline to stay fit? Give me a break!
Good point. Companies I worked at always put an emphasis on hiring veterans just for the reasons you stated.
@@IAmTimCorey I'd like to know those companies because based on my experience, many military retirees (20+ years in service) are forced to go back to school to expand their job opportunities. Yes, one can say, "you should've taken your degree while in the service" but whoever is saying that is missing the point. Plus many jobs in the service require you to work stupidly long hours, deploy frequently, and if you have a family, say goodbye to sleep and free time.