@@stevenbodum3405 Hi, Thank you for your comments, I suppose it is possible to use a dividing head, but that might have other issues like gearing, to enable table motion control on a shaper or perhaps a mill.
I found your channel while researching gear cutting on a shaper and I’m glad I did. Great job and explanation of what you are doing and how you are improving your setup, 👍👍 And also thank you for taking the time to share this with everyone. Eddie wheels 😬👍🧑🏻🦽
Hi Eddie. Thanks for your comments. I try, and sometimes things go wrong, but this was the exception thankfully. I am toying with the idea of a modification to increase the range of gear sizes mainly smaller gears, maybe as small as 20mm diameter, however, linkage backlash will have to be kept to a minimum. I have mentioned that this setup has the ability to cut all gears from 100 teeth down to a 10 tooth gear, in truth it can cut down to a bonkers 2 teeth. But, if I offset the each plate by 50%, I can cut from a 200 tooth gear down to a 2 teeth gear. Now, if I offset the plates by 1/3 (33.3%) I can cut 300 down to 2 teeth. However, a 300 tooth gear at around 150mm diameter will practically be classified as a rotary file. Have fun with your shaper. Cheers
Impressive project! Thanks for sharing. I do wonder if it would have been better to use a couple of stepper motors and some software? You could input the parameters into the software and come back later to a finished gear. 🤔
Paul. Great follow up. BTW, In your other video you mentioned you flattened your self-made surface plate. Can you please, make a short video of how did you do it? Thanks.
Hi Gennady. Thank you for your comments, I have now been asked a few times to do this, I hadn’t planned to do this, but due to popular demand, I will have a go at doing this, but it’s a project that will have to wait until I have some spare time.. Regards.
Would replacing the torque arm mechanism with a Scotch Yoke or Watt's Linkage connected to the dividing plate pin at PCR work to cancel out the geometric error of this component?
Hi Andrew, thanks for your comments. I have looked at this, the gear tooth cutter is pulled(or pushed) through an ark that covers approximately one sixth of one full rotation. In my mind, linked by con-rod or scotch yolk, the ark is still the same, except that the scotch yolk would need more room to complete its manoeuvre. What is apparent is, that in both cases, there is a case for a very small acceleration, at the start and at the end, of each tooth as it is cut. I believe this is not sufficient enough for me to worry about especially as I wish to keep the backlash through linkages to a minimum.
Will this method cut bevel gears? Obviously the indexer would have to have a pivoting feature, but in terms of the cutter making the right profile would it work?
@@sblack48 you know I don’t really know, I haven’t thought about it until you mentioned it.. but I wouldn’t think so having spent a couple of seconds on that subject, but I will have a look. who knows if it does work I may do another video. regards.
@@Thesheddweller I kind of think, by nothing more than gut feeling, that it would work. Bevel gears are tough to do with a typical involute cutter because the tooth and valley need to be tapered but cutting them with this method on a shaper would generate the taper, so unburdened by any other knowledge or understanding I am thinking that this is possible. This is a cool series you are doing. I'm very interested since the tooling is quite basic. In fact there are lots of indexers, like the typical 5C spindexers, that could easily be modified to do what you are doing. Keep up the great work!!
This is fantastic! I just watched both of these videos. I dislike cutting gears on a mill with a dividing head due to the cost of the cutters ($50+ for a decent one, more for a different pitch angle), so the single point cutter seems like a great cost savings. Also, those only approximate the gear profile (which is why the 8 of them can cover the whole range), whereas the shaper result is 'perfect' (modulo the 'stepover'). I've oft looked at the string-method and been disappointed at how 'cheap' they looked, so seeing this looks awesome! That said, I'm still confused by the PCD/PCR. What is the relationship of it, and the end-gear? Is it just that the 'gear needs to be rotated at pivot point-radius as the final gear, or somewhere inside the teeth? Finally, the Machininst Handbook has the pressure-angle tooth-profiles for the 'rack' I think, so you could use that to look up the common sizes. Finally/finally (sorry!), I wonder if there would be value in making the cutter a 'rack' segment with multiple cutting edges! That way you could cut multiple teeth in 1 feed. Perhaps less possible on a smaller shaper (not to mention with the flexing of the blank), but perhaps it could make it less time consuming to make a gear. Anyway, thankk you again for this pair of videos!
Hi again, I've just seen the full text of your comment, sorry I don't know how I missed it. Anyhow, I am not an expert with gears far from it, and I did say in the video, anyhow - I'll see what I can do, (2 x PCR = PCD) that is referenced from a central pivot point, the PCR is from the central axis point of axial rotation to the diametral pitch thats that bit explained. I can say that this system is not perfect, the best results will only be attained using dedicated cutters on a mill or by using a CNC machine. I used a link bar and adjustable arm as opposed to wire to reduce the need to have thousands of different sized wheels for the wire to drive each change in PCD. For me using a rack is the same as using the the wire. The Idea for using a rack as the cutting device is a good one, but it means that there would have to be 1 rack cutter for every variation in diametral pitch. but like I say I'm not an expert(far from it).. My little tool is not perfect and it has now been proven, but I understand its pretty close. regards
@@Thesheddweller So I guess my thought was this: Currently, your cutter is 1 tooth of a rack. If you made it 2 teeth of the same rack (you'd still need 1 'cutter' per DP like you do today, but now 2 teeth on the same cutter), you would be cutting 2 teeth at once. I THINK this also has the advantage of letting you have a 50 position index-circle cut a 100 tooth gear. If your cutter had 4 teeth for example, you wouldn't need a 50 OR 100 tooth index-circle, since the 25 would do all 3. Presumably, you could limit the number of index-circles needed to a small number (even better, smaller hole-counts, instead of having to do all 50!), which has its obvious advantages. That said, this is likely all academic, since it'll increase machine load to the point that I doubt your shaper could handle it. FINALLY, I saw another video that used a rack attached behind the table to do advancement, though it used gears to do the power transmission (and thus, you'd need a 50 tooth gear to cut a 50 tooth gear!), but presumably by moving the 'angle iron' piece to the back in some way could save some space. Anyway, thank you again for the video and comment! I am just getting to know your channel, but like it so far!
You mentioned you've made a surface plate. Any chance you'll be making a video on that? If not, what did you make it from and how did you true it up? Thanks
Hi, I made my surface plate using a concrete slab(sidewalk slabs) and granite tiles from a kitchen supply store. I cut the concrete slabs to the same size as the granite tiles, 3 in total, then used strong tile cement to bond the tiles to the slabs. When set, I trued the sides with an angle grinder and used the ‘A, B, C’ method of truing up accurate faces starting with valve grinding paste then on to diamond paste from Ebay.
@@ThesheddwellerThanks for answering. I'm guessing that would not be a viable method without the surface grinder? Still it must have taken quite a bit of time to do ABC by hand?
Hi made a gear cutter inspired by your efforts, other videos show a taught wire used to move the spindle as the shaper table moves. Trying to get my head round the maths, but does a fixed arm rotating the spindle mean the spindle rotates slightly less than when usind wire? I figure that as the arm pushes the indexer outwards as well as forward a slighy larger pitch circle would need to be used to account for this. What are your thoughts?
Hi Rob, the reason I made my variation of gear cutting tool is because it is fully adjustable at the pitch diameter. The wire version needed a wheel machining first to the precise pitch diameter minus half the wire thickness for each gear, leading to the potential of having a large stock of wheels and still not having the right wheel for another gear. As for increasing the pitch circle your maths are going beyond what this device was designed for. I would suggest if you are requiring gears with that level of accuracy I would suggest getting the proper gear cutters and use them in the milling machine. The formed tooth is accelerated towards the later part of the cut in both directions using the arm, but I felt the error is negligible in real world use, as this acceleration simply rolls the top corner of each formed tooth. I hope this helps. cheers
Also how did you work out the cutter tip width, i managed to draw it out on cad and think ive got it down, but would appreciate it if you could explain your thoughts and how you measured the tip width?
I can send you a copy of a spreadsheet that I cobbled together and you are welcome to open it and play about with it. I’ll need your email to do this. My email is thesheddweller@hotmail.com Regards.
Hi Howard. It is indeed an Alba 1A. I bought it from eBay for what I considered to be a bargain price. But, with low prices come low quality and poor condition. I’m not too disappointed with it. it came with a few odd changes and a lot of slack in the gibs, the table is a bit battered but after a little bit of fettling I am slowly beginning to get the feel of it. One thing I did do was alter the speed by fitting another set of pulleys inside the base, I also moved the motor on a plate to another position and slowed the otherwise very high high top speed down by almost half.. it no longer jumps around the floor like a demented monkey with a drum..
Watching this process makes me really, really appreciate the efficiencies that CNC affords.
Great functional design. Well done.
Hi, thank you. cheers.
Thanks for the update. Really interesting. I never did cut any gears on my shaper, but i hope one day i will.
Hi. I'm sure you are well up for the job. It's hard work but worth it.
i want to try this too. but isnt it easier to grind a matching tool bit and use a deviding head?
@@stevenbodum3405 Hi, Thank you for your comments, I suppose it is possible to use a dividing head, but that might have other issues like gearing, to enable table motion control on a shaper or perhaps a mill.
I just found your channel and i love your videos. Cannot wait for you to post more.
Hi, thanks for your comments. I’m currently working on the next video, it may have to be in two parts.
Learning, thinking and enjoying! Thanks for taking the time to make this video.
Hi, you’re very welcome.
I found your channel while researching gear cutting on a shaper and I’m glad I did. Great job and explanation of what you are doing and how you are improving your setup, 👍👍 And also thank you for taking the time to share this with everyone. Eddie wheels 😬👍🧑🏻🦽
Hi Eddie.
Thanks for your comments.
I try, and sometimes things go wrong, but this was the exception thankfully.
I am toying with the idea of a modification to increase the range of gear sizes mainly smaller gears, maybe as small as 20mm diameter, however, linkage backlash will have to be kept to a minimum.
I have mentioned that this setup has the ability to cut all gears from 100 teeth down to a 10 tooth gear, in truth it can cut down to a bonkers 2 teeth. But, if I offset the each plate by 50%, I can cut from a 200 tooth gear down to a 2 teeth gear.
Now, if I offset the plates by 1/3 (33.3%) I can cut 300 down to 2 teeth. However, a 300 tooth gear at around 150mm diameter will practically be classified as a rotary file.
Have fun with your shaper.
Cheers
I’m even more motivated to give it a go myself!
The Wild West Workshop, it's still a prototype, very soon I'll have some drawings available for it on my website. www.thesheddweller.com
Impressive project! Thanks for sharing.
I do wonder if it would have been better to use a couple of stepper motors and some software? You could input the parameters into the software and come back later to a finished gear. 🤔
Impressive!
Thanks for watching.
Paul. Great follow up. BTW, In your other video you mentioned you flattened your self-made surface plate. Can you please, make a short video of how did you do it? Thanks.
Hi Gennady. Thank you for your comments, I have now been asked a few times to do this, I hadn’t planned to do this, but due to popular demand, I will have a go at doing this, but it’s a project that will have to wait until I have some spare time..
Regards.
Great, question. Are you not afraid of friction when rotating the axis?
HI, thanks for watching. No, I don't have any issues with friction that I'm aware of. Regards
Would replacing the torque arm mechanism with a Scotch Yoke or Watt's Linkage connected to the dividing plate pin at PCR work to cancel out the geometric error of this component?
Hi Andrew, thanks for your comments. I have looked at this, the gear tooth cutter is pulled(or pushed) through an ark that covers approximately one sixth of one full rotation. In my mind, linked by con-rod or scotch yolk, the ark is still the same, except that the scotch yolk would need more room to complete its manoeuvre. What is apparent is, that in both cases, there is a case for a very small acceleration, at the start and at the end, of each tooth as it is cut. I believe this is not sufficient enough for me to worry about especially as I wish to keep the backlash through linkages to a minimum.
ok thanks!
Will this method cut bevel gears? Obviously the indexer would have to have a pivoting feature, but in terms of the cutter making the right profile would it work?
@@sblack48 you know I don’t really know, I haven’t thought about it until you mentioned it.. but I wouldn’t think so having spent a couple of seconds on that subject, but I will have a look. who knows if it does work I may do another video. regards.
@@Thesheddweller I kind of think, by nothing more than gut feeling, that it would work. Bevel gears are tough to do with a typical involute cutter because the tooth and valley need to be tapered but cutting them with this method on a shaper would generate the taper, so unburdened by any other knowledge or understanding I am thinking that this is possible. This is a cool series you are doing. I'm very interested since the tooling is quite basic. In fact there are lots of indexers, like the typical 5C spindexers, that could easily be modified to do what you are doing. Keep up the great work!!
This is fantastic! I just watched both of these videos. I dislike cutting gears on a mill with a dividing head due to the cost of the cutters ($50+ for a decent one, more for a different pitch angle), so the single point cutter seems like a great cost savings. Also, those only approximate the gear profile (which is why the 8 of them can cover the whole range), whereas the shaper result is 'perfect' (modulo the 'stepover').
I've oft looked at the string-method and been disappointed at how 'cheap' they looked, so seeing this looks awesome!
That said, I'm still confused by the PCD/PCR. What is the relationship of it, and the end-gear? Is it just that the 'gear needs to be rotated at pivot point-radius as the final gear, or somewhere inside the teeth?
Finally, the Machininst Handbook has the pressure-angle tooth-profiles for the 'rack' I think, so you could use that to look up the common sizes.
Finally/finally (sorry!), I wonder if there would be value in making the cutter a 'rack' segment with multiple cutting edges! That way you could cut multiple teeth in 1 feed. Perhaps less possible on a smaller shaper (not to mention with the flexing of the blank), but perhaps it could make it less time consuming to make a gear.
Anyway, thankk you again for this pair of videos!
Hi, it does have its advantages, I've even cut toothed belt gears,
Hi again, I've just seen the full text of your comment, sorry I don't know how I missed it.
Anyhow, I am not an expert with gears far from it, and I did say in the video, anyhow - I'll see what I can do, (2 x PCR = PCD) that is referenced from a central pivot point, the PCR is from the central axis point of axial rotation to the diametral pitch thats that bit explained. I can say that this system is not perfect, the best results will only be attained using dedicated cutters on a mill or by using a CNC machine. I used a link bar and adjustable arm as opposed to wire to reduce the need to have thousands of different sized wheels for the wire to drive each change in PCD. For me using a rack is the same as using the the wire. The Idea for using a rack as the cutting device is a good one, but it means that there would have to be 1 rack cutter for every variation in diametral pitch. but like I say I'm not an expert(far from it).. My little tool is not perfect and it has now been proven, but I understand its pretty close. regards
@@Thesheddweller So I guess my thought was this: Currently, your cutter is 1 tooth of a rack. If you made it 2 teeth of the same rack (you'd still need 1 'cutter' per DP like you do today, but now 2 teeth on the same cutter), you would be cutting 2 teeth at once.
I THINK this also has the advantage of letting you have a 50 position index-circle cut a 100 tooth gear.
If your cutter had 4 teeth for example, you wouldn't need a 50 OR 100 tooth index-circle, since the 25 would do all 3.
Presumably, you could limit the number of index-circles needed to a small number (even better, smaller hole-counts, instead of having to do all 50!), which has its obvious advantages.
That said, this is likely all academic, since it'll increase machine load to the point that I doubt your shaper could handle it.
FINALLY, I saw another video that used a rack attached behind the table to do advancement, though it used gears to do the power transmission (and thus, you'd need a 50 tooth gear to cut a 50 tooth gear!), but presumably by moving the 'angle iron' piece to the back in some way could save some space.
Anyway, thank you again for the video and comment! I am just getting to know your channel, but like it so far!
You mentioned you've made a surface plate. Any chance you'll be making a video on that? If not, what did you make it from and how did you true it up? Thanks
Hi, I made my surface plate using a concrete slab(sidewalk slabs) and granite tiles from a kitchen supply store. I cut the concrete slabs to the same size as the granite tiles, 3 in total, then used strong tile cement to bond the tiles to the slabs. When set, I trued the sides with an angle grinder and used the ‘A, B, C’ method of truing up accurate faces starting with valve grinding paste then on to diamond paste from Ebay.
@@ThesheddwellerThanks for answering. I'm guessing that would not be a viable method without the surface grinder? Still it must have taken quite a bit of time to do ABC by hand?
@@vedranlatin1386 I made this plate before I had the grinder, its an excelent tool for gauging and measuring, even without a grinder.
@@Thesheddweller How long did it take to true them up?
@@vedranlatin1386 ages… and ages.
Hi made a gear cutter inspired by your efforts, other videos show a taught wire used to move the spindle as the shaper table moves. Trying to get my head round the maths, but does a fixed arm rotating the spindle mean the spindle rotates slightly less than when usind wire? I figure that as the arm pushes the indexer outwards as well as forward a slighy larger pitch circle would need to be used to account for this. What are your thoughts?
Hi Rob, the reason I made my variation of gear cutting tool is because it is fully adjustable at the pitch diameter. The wire version needed a wheel machining first to the precise pitch diameter minus half the wire thickness for each gear, leading to the potential of having a large stock of wheels and still not having the right wheel for another gear. As for increasing the pitch circle your maths are going beyond what this device was designed for. I would suggest if you are requiring gears with that level of accuracy I would suggest getting the proper gear cutters and use them in the milling machine.
The formed tooth is accelerated towards the later part of the cut in both directions using the arm, but I felt the error is negligible in real world use, as this acceleration simply rolls the top corner of each formed tooth. I hope this helps. cheers
Also how did you work out the cutter tip width, i managed to draw it out on cad and think ive got it down, but would appreciate it if you could explain your thoughts and how you measured the tip width?
I can send you a copy of a spreadsheet that I cobbled together and you are welcome to open it and play about with it. I’ll need your email to do this. My email is thesheddweller@hotmail.com
Regards.
Paul,is that an Alba 1 A shaper? If so it is the same model I have in my workshop.
Hi Howard.
It is indeed an Alba 1A. I bought it from eBay for what I considered to be a bargain price. But, with low prices come low quality and poor condition. I’m not too disappointed with it. it came with a few odd changes and a lot of slack in the gibs, the table is a bit battered but after a little bit of fettling I am slowly beginning to get the feel of it. One thing I did do was alter the speed by fitting another set of pulleys inside the base, I also moved the motor on a plate to another position and slowed the otherwise very high high top speed down by almost half.. it no longer jumps around the floor like a demented monkey with a drum..
G sir
thanks for watching.
MUY BUENO
Buenas dias ASM. Muchas gracias.